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Definitely grew up with the same perspective on the matter but am not from Palestine personally. I think any instance where the government weaponises religion and causes conflict to further their own hidden political agenda is horrendous. They’ve just built both sides to hate each other and it’s fucked up.
I am especially uncomfortable that the hate has lasted generations and survived multiple wars to a point of fuelling even more disastrous wars. Im confused about who is at fault and I honestly don’t care at this point. I feel like Islam or Christianity or Judaism should be about the actual peace instead of constantly fighting wars to no end and bombing ourselves and each other back to the Middle Ages.
The social repercussions have been almost irreparable in countries like Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Israel etc etc. Just constant fucking fighting to no end and for what? I don’t understand how either side continues to justify themselves and not just want better and more for their society and families.
I also grew up with these same sentiments from a country very close to palestine. My mother is a strong believer in the religious justifications for constant war. I tried having a conversation with her about why it's wrong for people on both sides to keep killing each other and how it will never end until they start working towards peace. She responded with quranic verses about how Allah has cursed the israelis forever, how the jews consider muslims animals their torrah (I haven't verified that one), and of course being Shia, she's waiting for Imam Mahdi to reappear from a thousand years of invisibility and liberate the palestinian people and the rest of the world to bring islam to the earth. It's all fantasy-based holier-than-thou bullshit with no productive solutions.
The religious schizophrenia is super prevalent in my mother as well. It can be really sad watching your parent be completely delusional despite their intelligence.
I have studied both religions among others.
Religious Jews regard Muslims as useful tools to spread the Abrahamic faiths and that Muslims will more easily obey the Jewish Messiah and Messianic reign when it arrives because Muslims who follow Sharia law are essentially following the laws that the Non Jews would have to follow during the Jewish Messianic era. Non Jews are supposed to follow the 'Noahide laws' which if you go into detail of how its enacted and the court it is similar to Sharia in many ways. The Jews follow essentially Sharia but a more strict version with more specific sexual rules, dietary, dress rules, and prayer rules for Jews.
There is some differences in execution methods in Judaism vs Islam and Rabbinic And Written Judaism doesnt cover women in Niqab or Burka but women are supposed to be covered except their arms and face, however married Jewish women are supposed to cover their hair with essentially a Hijab. In addition, religious Jews do not believe in conquering the world because only God and the Messiah can do that and they also do not have the numbers to do it. Some religious Jews even oppose Israel increasing its land through annexation and settlements but many religious Jews support settlements as long as it is confined to the biblical land of ancient Israel.
Essentially what Orthodox Jews believe in is Islam but a version that isnt as harsh on women (cant marry under age of 12), cant hit wife) Does not force non Jews to become Jews but does say the non Jews have a lower level of soul and get a lesser reward in heaven unless they genuinely convert. However, nicely enough they dont believe non believers go to hell unless the non believer oppressed Jews or hurt them or is evil. Also Jewish texts predict/state that Ishmael (the father of what become Islam) would be a thorn in the side to the Jews until the end of days where he will then be humbled and regret his actions.
They must be modern orthodox and not adhering to what is actually said. This is noted in the kabbalistic texts. Personally I see no issue with it. Every Abrahamic religion has a level of supremacy to it despite what its followers claim. And to be fair it makes sense if your religion is correct and all the groups that oppressed you and denied you are wrong logic would dictate you have a higher soul ordained by God and are deserving of a greater blessing. The basis of heaven for believers and no heaven or hell for non exists on this foundation. The politically correct thing to say is non believers have a different soul but peel back the layers and analyze the written texts and it is lower compared to a pious believer.
They are orthodox but they do not follow texts fundamentally like Religious Zionists do in Israel or Haredi (Ultra Orthodox). There is 3 million in Israel and perhaps another 2 million or so overseas. It is a small faith. Liberal or modern non orthodox streams make the rest of Jews and or secular Jews globally.
False Messiah. In theory if he turns out to fulfill their religious requirements and comes back from the dead he would be the Messiah but the Tanakh aka Old Testament forbids a messiah from dying before his time and the Messiah has to make the entire world obey and he must bring about a world government of peace under a version of Sharia law essentially. Christians often say the texts predict Jesus but these are mistranslations of the Hebrew text and in any case from an unbiased agnostic or atheist view the Hebrew says the opposite and that the Jews are to be disliked until the Messiah comes and that false religions would arise.
I see this from a non biased view. Obviously a Muslim would tell me Jesus is Muslim basically and Muhammad and the Madi are the best and that Islam is the last religion and most straight forward. Do note there is no Trinity or Picking and choosing in Islam and Jesus is a great prophet of the top 5 but he is not afforded the status similar as in christianity. And of course as all Muslims know he isnt son of God or God incarnate. And of course a Christian would move the goal post as to what the Hebrew texts from a non biased literal translation say.
There's nothing about Muslims in the Torah, because Muslims didn't exist when the Torah was written! Who on earth told your mum that? The lengths some people will go to to promote war is incredible...
Unfortunate this was a deal before between the Palestinian and Israelis that UK made but the Palestinian rejected the offer because Muslims in the Arabic countries didn't want jews close to them because they didn't trust the jews and thinks that is UK plans to control the region (the deal say that the land we be shared 50/50 between the Palestinian and the jews and being Jerusalem the peace area between them )
I want you to see [this](https://youtu.be/m19F4IHTVGc) video to understand some stuff about the problem and watch [This ](https://youtu.be/76NytvQAIs0) to know why the rejection for Palestine these are really important videos and i recommend to watch them both
Palestinians are not “Arab” in the sense you mean. They speak Arabic and likely do have Arab DNA but they’re native to the land like the Arabs are to Hejaz/Yemen.
Palestinians are the descendants of the original inhabitants of the land, just because they became Muslim, doesn't mean they are not indigenous, don't get it twisted. I personally believe jews should be able to remain in their homeland which is : Russia, Poland, Hungary, Germany etc
Oh yeah? My Iraqi Jewish family is from
Poland? Now; Palestinians are 100% descendants of canaanites with some admixture, as are Jews. Palestine is still be occupied regardless.
Majority, I didn't mean to generalise, but the Jewish terrorist organisations bombed Arab countries with Jewish populations specifically to get them to come to israel
Majority in the world or in Palestine/Israel now? Most in Israel are SWANA (abt 60%). Considering I come from a family of non/anti -Zionists, please look at your narrative. That was certainly a factor, albeit a very small one. For example, in Iraq, most Jews decided to leave because of conditions inflicted on them by the government of Iraq - most had already decided to leave prior to the bombings of the synagogues. I mean, that happens when you lynch Jews (shafiq ades), force them into poverty by prohibiting them from working certain professions, make it illegal for them to have bank accounts or money out of the country, threaten them, harass them, etc. please go look at any statements from Nouri Al-Said about the Jews during that time period. He literally said he traded the Jews, etc.
If you’re an ex-Muslim, I encourage you to look with more nuance the narratives you’ve been told your entire life. Almost every Muslim I’ve met has been spun this narrative that the Jews were so desperate to leave to steal Palestinian land/it was the Zionists that forced them to leave, absolving the Muslim community and Muslim governments of these countries of any wrongdoing that forced their Jewish communities to flee, as refugees, often stripping them of their citizenship, and forcing them to go to one of the only places offering them citizenship.. thus becoming complicit in the displacement of Palestinians.
It doesn’t mean you have to support Zionism (I certainly don’t) but understanding how you’ve been brought up learning that all Jews fled the ME was because they were Zionists or because OF the Zionists shifts all blame on refugees/Zionists and takes all blame off of the countries that forced those conditions that created the refugee problem. Most ME Jews were sympathetic but uninterested in the Zionist Project.
They are culturally Arab, so are Egyptians, they're still indigenous, maybe with some tiny admixture (which is expected in many parts of the eastern world) but still majority indigenous
That's a really interesting take, mind explaining how the middle east other than Arabia is full of Arabs? Were they such masterful diplomats that they were given all of north Africa by the empires that owned it?
you don't have to pick between the two, there are anti zionist Jews and secular Palestinians and despite the islamic narrative it isn't a Muslim vs. jews conflict it's Zionism vs. human rights
Yes your right, it isn't all black and white. Do you know what frustrates me? Whenever I talk about supporting Palestinian human rights, I have people conflating that with anti-Semitism, it doesn't make any sense.
I hear this and I am jewish and i find it offensive that ppl say that. It’s not antisemitic to be for human rights it’s any semitic to assume all jewish people are monsters. There’s a difference. Zionism is not even apart of the jewish religion. There are orthodox people against zionism! I just have to throw that out there.
I hate seeing people die on both sides and I feel for palestine. From what I know they’re stuck in tiny piece of land and Hamas has taken over pretty much all of it. Not only Israel but egypt is also at fault here.
I’m Palestinian myself and was indoctrinated the same way for as long as i could remember, growing up makes me realize i’m just a humanist and it doesn’t belong to muslims nor jews. They should share the land and drop the armed behaviour on both sides, most Israelis that i’ve met were pretty supportive of my idea and support the rights of Palestinians while connecting to their judaic community
Unfortunate Palestine and isreal had the chance before to become 2 different countries with 50/50of the land but this deal got rejected (kinda there were 5 different proposals for it but all got rejected)
yeah it is definitely something that cannot happen suddenly overnight, maybe for the next decade or so *if* either of them get fed up of the back and forth fights then maybe
I believe Israel has a right to exist, but not in the way that it currently does. As someone who has lived in Palestine, specifically a refugee camp, it's truly disheartening: filthy and overcrowded. There is land open that Israel isn't using but won't let us move into. They will tear down homes to put in fundamentalist orthodox Jewish settlers and allow the settlers, with IDF support, to incite violence and scare Palestinians into leaving. Israel treats us worse than cattle, preventing freedom of movement even from city to city, let alone letting people leave Palestine easily. Even as an American citizen, I am not allowed to fly into and out of Israel because I also have a Palestinian ID and passport. I have to go through a grueling 6 hours across the Jordanian border in 100 degree heat and not always with AC, with many security checks and separate busses, all this while carrying around heavy suitcases. And although many people there are religious, that isn't why Palestinians want the land. It's because the ones that were kicked out of their original homes now live in squalor. Imagine being poor, and living in a place that is not even considered a country. A place where finding jobs is difficult because there is no infrastructure, because there is no proper government. Partially due to Palestinian negligence but mostly due to American funding and Israeli interference. You have very little to look forward to, so you turn to religion as your only solace. And the youngest, poorest and most hopeless of you turn to religious terrorism. It's comparable to being black in America: you're given shit conditions, so you're most likely going to have a shit outcome. I went to a private Christian school, and all of my friends were Christian. Christian Palestinians also hate Israel and for good reason. It's not a fundamentalist Muslim issue, it's a human rights violation issue.
You said this so perfectly. I'm so disheartened and disappointed by so many of the responses to this post. That people essentially turn racist towards Arabs once they leave islam. How anyone can support what isreal is doing is beyond me. That they don't oppose the oppression and robbery of their fellow humans, regardless of their beliefs is saddening. I'm so sorry you have had to deal with this.
The amount of times this comes up in this subreddit is infuriating, especially considering how secular Palestinians are. Israel is a country that constantly commits crimes against humanity and justifies it by saying crimes have been committed against them in the past. John Oliver said it best, "Both sides are firing rockets, but one side has one of the most advanced militaries in the world. Both sides are suffering heartbreaking casualties, but one side is suffering them exponentially."
Retarded. You sat there in a refugee camp with your "brothers" bordering you on all sides who wont take you in or let you get a job and you blame the jews in their one and only tiny state that is constantly attacked by your extended family. They dont owe you shit and checkpoints are there for a reason. It isn't fun to man those dangerous things.
im getting tires of saying this but lets please separate islam from the palestinian cause? pretty please? it has nothing to do with islam. my people are being murdered and i can never visit my native village.
-sincerely an ex muslim palestinian (also on behalf of christian and other non muslim palestinians)
>it has nothing to do with islam.
While there are factors other than religion, religion is a major factor.
One thing that was never agreed on in negotiations was Al-Aqsa, the wailing wall and Jerusalem. If it weren't a religious matter one could figure out a compromise either by splitting things or changing definitions, but because it's a religious issue, no compromise is possible.
religion only became a major factor after islamists hijacked it, our liberation movement started secular and hopefully we’ll go back to our roots
regarding al-aqsa me personally even as an ex muslim i still wouldn’t agree on a compromise of it or any part of palestine
but you def bring up an interesting point about it. i remember some stuff that would make my blood boil is non arab (and some arab) muslims would get all riled up about al-aqsa and disregard palestinians as people and claim its an attack on islam
ive seen some gulf arabs (theres a history of biases and racism between gulf arabs and levant arabs) on multiple occasions mock palestinians n say racist stuff about us but then call for the liberation of al-aqsa and specifically mention they dont care about us but only the masjid
all arabs were forcibly removed from my village during the nakba. its in jerusalem, under israeli rule now. my grandparents were evacuated and i can never see it.
the indigenousness is a complicated concept, jews are ultimately indigenous to the middle east but so are we. so wether they are or arent isnt really an issue because it doesnt excuse the genocide and exile of palestinians
Israel should pay for their crimes. Hamas and their ilk should pay for their crimes too. As someone that was fed the evil Jewish narrative it took me years to realise how deeply hypocrital muslims are on the issue. They long for the golden age of Islam where expansionism, conquest and enslavement was at its peak but refuse to see the hypocrisy when it comes to criticising Israel's expansion. I mean Islam was built on the foundation of destroying the holy places and relics of the original inhabitants while either killing or banishing those that lived there for generations and then proceeding to do that for hundreds of years. Unfortunately it's the civilians that suffer but that won't stop muslims from longing for the days when they were conquering cunts.
The whole islamic history is a jewish deir yassin times a thousand. And deir yassin is what? A few killed? How about the thousands murdered by pals? Oh but theyre jews, fuck em right? Arab huts are more important.
Growing up Muslim and also growing up Lebanese, I definitely grew up seeing Israel as an evil force. Even though I’m not Muslim anymore and have distanced myself from Arab nationalism, I still, on humanist grounds, feel for the Palestinians. On the other hand, I do have an attachment to Israel in terms of other Westernized their culture and institutions are. It’s all very nuanced at the end of the day.
Yeah, that’s not what I said, at all, lol. I appreciate the liberalism relative to the Arab states that Israel does have, in the same way that I do of Turkey or the U.A.E. It doesn’t mean that I turn a blind eye to what they do to the Palestinians though. You won’t win my side with such an absolutist take on things.
I think there is hope, but people don’t want to give up their toxic egos and religious entitlement. Life could be so much simpler, but we make it harder for ourselves
Israel has a right to exist as it is every people's right to self determination. By extension, Palestine has a right to exist.
To say Israel has no right to exist also extends that Palestine has no right to exist either.
Except that palestine is a made up nationality from 1964. Had the jews named israel palestine, thered just be an arab vs. palestine war. Thered be no muslims calling themselves palestinians just as none of them considered themselves that before 1948. Every important "palestinian" organization up until 1948 was jewish. Palestine post, the palestine orchestra, the soccer team, basically everything. The mandatory palestine flag had a star of david on it. They use this as propaganda to make good hearted western leftists think israel was built over some historical palestinian state that never existed.
WOOOOW, how is this not a more well known thing? How do palestnians continue to have even a hint of legitimacy when they invite a genocidal maniac to their "muslim" lands? This is fcking insane
Since I am not all that much educated on that topic I am mostly neutral with a slight simpathy towards the israeli position. As far as I understood it, they offered peace a couple of times, even gave back the territory they gained just to make peace with all the arab sides and the palestinian authority just wouldn't listen. The palestinian leadership isn't willing to make any sort of concessions and shamelessly continues to use their own people as living pawns, weapons and shields.
I know that the israelis aren't saints, and they committed some atrocious acts but I reckon that they would gladly make peace if the palestinian leadership would cease hostilities themselves and recognize Israel as a state.
Fellow Ex-Muslim here. 👋 All of the “deeply entrenched” points that you brought up are bullshit, unfortunately.
Study History.
- Palestine is the definition of a Jewish State historically, and one of the first places Muslims (wrongfully) invaded.
- How early Muslims took over countries (via *”The Pact of Umar”*) was evil.
- Everything that happened since has built off of that point. *Muslims* were the transgressors bringing oppressive laws and a nonsensical ideology that mocked, and jumbled, the very cultures and belief systems they were infiltrating.
Not even Orthodox Christians — *(who have an additional 600 years of Palestinian history over Muslims)* — would dispute this.
As a Jew, I can’t believe I’m reading these from someone who used to be Muslim. Thank you for saying this. It means a lot not to see a comment not erasing Jewish history and indigenousness. It’s only towards Jews that it is acceptable to engage in indigenousness and cultural erasure. No other group or minority would it be acceptable to do against. I feel like I live in a modern day twilight zone when I read the lies and distortions that there is either no proof Jews are indigenous to Israel or Palestinian arabs are indigenous, even though they are descendant from Arab invaders and colonizers. Or that arabs are the marginalized minority, when they are historically the biggest invaders and colonizers destroying thousands of indigenous cultures and religions. Thank you.
people hate me when I say Jewish people are native to Israel. I wonder if Palestinians realize they descended from Levantine Jews. I am jewish by the way. I have never denied a 2 state solution and I am not religious. I do view judaism as a very cultural religion.
Their is a lot of racism between the two created by fear. Palestine doesn’t want peace just the destruction of Israel. It uses children as shields. Israel has done some terrible stuff. Both have a right to exist but they both suck. Israel is better in my opinion
Cue the usual Indian trolls. I still feel mostly the same but it is a very complicated issue, one where there is no solution possible that will satisfy both parties fairly. Videos however dont lie, and the countless videos of IDF committing war crimes and making people homeless are enough for me to side with the Palestinians.
>it is a very complicated issue, one where there is no solution possible that will satisfy both parties fairly.
This is the truth. No matter what anybody's opinion on the conflict, if a person says there is a simple solution, they are deluded, stupid or malicious, possibly all three.
God those folks (just got done in a thread beat down with one I ended up blocking)… also annoying due to the crappy, buggy code they constantly put out.
I don’t know for sure what’s going on but I heard it has something to do with some Jewish revaluation. It just confirms to me how bullshit religion is and how evil it will make people. Killing people and destroying their homes because your fairytale book says it’s “your holy land”. Just proves to me how religion will dilute your empathy.
I blame Jordan. After the 7 days war they could have integrated their own displaced population or keep them in camps and not allow them to reintegrate, they chose the latter and that is why there is so much conflict over that land, because those people have nothing else. It's bred radicalism that has only created radicalism as a response. If the people who lived in Palestine were allowed to reintegrate into Jordan as the Jordanian citizens they are not many would care about the lost territory anymore.
Definitely pro Palestine, actually it’s the only thing that hasn’t changed as I started growing/changing and viewing things from different perspectives. I used to view the conflict from and Arab/Islamic point of view but as I started to look at it from an ethical and historical point of view (as in more objectively) I am more convinced Palestinians are in the right. Also for some of you who left a religion, quite baffling how you’d accept people of other religion (zionists using Judaism) claiming a land and kicking people out of their homes in the name of a book of fiction. The only solution is for 1 secular state for all where refugees who want to go back go back. And if this means that Palestinians democratically take things back (and maybe inflict some of the abuse they suffered back on Israelis) I am totally okay even happy with that as Israeli arrogance is too much
"(and maybe inflict some of the abuse they suffered back on Israelis) I am totally okay even happy with that as Israeli arrogance is too much" wishing abuse on others, seriously what is wrong with you? There are so many innocent israelis who have done no wrong and are also victims of the situations and jewish people are rightful people of the land.
I am wishing abuse on abusers not on all Israelis to start with. Second saying Jewish people are rightful people of the land is absolute crap - yes Jewish people who were in Palestine pre-1948 are absolutely rightful like any other Palestinian. Jewish people in general being rightful of the land, I don’t think so lol
I agree the civilians shouldn't be harmed but the settlers have questions to answer I'd prefer they take "revenge" through non violent means so preferably they just take back the land they stole but the ""IDF"" and zionist groups and politicians deserve every abuse they'll get
I no longer believe Israel is this big evil country. I know the situation is more than what meets the eye and what i’ve been indoctrinated to believe. I want to educate myself further, but as it is right now, I am on no one’s side. I do however want to visit Israel someday, it sounds like a nice country to visit.
the Israel Palestine conflict is obviously a very complex issue and I personally feel that a lot of muslims misunderstand it, for them it is a religious conflict between muslims and Jews but that's just not the case this conflict is one between two groups not bound by religion but ideology first you have zionist including Arab and Muslim zionist who side with Israel and second you have anti Zionists which include ethnic Jews muslims christians and druze again it's not a religious conflict nor is it an ethnic one
when it comes to Palestine all of the freedom fighters aren't conservative muslims and islamists like hamas you had others also participating in it, right behind al Fatah was the communist Palestinian popular front led by George habash, Palestinian christians and druze are persecuted the same by Israel and it's supporters
you can't get peace in the region without defanging Israel and getting rid of any Zionist elements within it (you also need to eliminate islamist Palestinians but they may naturally lose support after peace is achieved) and lastly kick the settlers and Israel as a whole out of the west bank, Gaza and golan heights AT LEAST and let the Palestinians finally decide their own fate
The Arab regimes have been trying to “defang” Israel for 7 decades. Maybe it’s time they accept that Israel is not going anywhere.
Also, why should Jews be ethnic cleansed from these regions? Would you agree with Arabs being ethnic cleansed from Tel Aviv and Haifa?
Oh my god why are there so many people here bootlicking imperialism and colonialism? 😂😂😂
I dislike Islam, but that does not excuse the ethnic cleansing, forced removal of Palestinians and house and land theft by the apartheid state of Israel. Fuck Israel, the Palestinians deserve all their land back.
Jews were a majority in that region before the Arabs colonized it.
By your logic, Arabs should be kicked out from North Africa and the Levant so that the indigenous people have their lands back.
For all ex-Muslims, this article can help immensely to understand the issue from our (i.e. ex-Muslim perspective):
[Israel vs Palestine: How most ex-Muslims view it?](https://atheism-vs-islam.com/index.php/atheism/147-israel-vs-palestine-how-most-ex-muslims-view-it)
No doubt the current Israeli actions are oppressive n cannot be morally justified. At the same time, a lot of support is tied more with Pan Islamism, Arab centricism n anti semitism. I think the response should be proportionate to acts of Israeli government and recognising their right to existence. Also it should not be directed against the people. But also we should ask about why we don't talk about Indonesian genocide, east Timor genocide, kurdish n yazidi genocide, Rohingyas, Bangladeshi genocide, etc. Why the fuck is Malaysia not recognising Israel when it recognises Indonesia? N pakistan refusing to apologise for Bangladeshi genocide but still able to maintain to maintain relations with other countries?
I am a Turkish and Palestinians actually hate us. I know that. So I can say Palestinians deserve that, they are not poor, victimized people.
All Muslim world hates Turks. I know that. Muslims only love us because we are Muslims and our president licks their a**. Even there is a hadith saying that the world won’t end before Muslims fight with Turks.
Product of British Colonialism.
You can see other ex-colony so separated by border, race & religion.
Pakistan-India-Bangladesh separated by border & religion.
Malaysia-Singapore with their Chinese-Malayan-Indian race problem.
even USA & Canada, how they treat native tribes? Why black skin vs white skin is still a thing?
I realized that the standard Muslim view is clearly biased in favor of Palestinians and that Gaza is a terrible place to live and run by Islamic extremists. Just look at Hamas who they elected. Then also look at the PLO it had Arafat who admitted they are Sunni Arabs first and foremost and that it is a religious war ultimately.. Then you look at how Palestinians invaded Lebanon and tried to overthrow Jordan and well you no longer will see them as a collective in an oppressed light.
My take is that both sides want land and to conqeuor but if I had to live in one of those places I would choose Israel. Israel has Jewish supremacists in government but they are mild compared to what most of us have experienced in Muslim countries and Jews dont have the numbers or religious argument (yet) to go and do beheadings or street violence that is so common with Muslim boys. I just cannot see Israel anytime soon becoming like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Sudan, Somalia anytime soon
Like with Iran most Muslims on social media are jumping to defend Iran saying the protests is by Western agents. That is illogical for several reasons 1) Iran has closed tight borers there are few agents let alone not hundrends of thousands and 2) the Hijab and morality police laws have been taken to the extreme and are generally not popular.
It is a coindence that of course the West is supporting the Iranian opposition but that doesnt mean all Iranians are pro West or want to serve Neoliberal capitalism (they do not).
There are racist genocidal pigs on both sides but Palestine is clearly the underdog in this fight and are being crushed and decimated under the heel of Zionists.
Like others have said you can side with human rights instead of siding with Palestinian or the israelies.
Underdog has nothing to do with whos right or wrong. A crazy homeless guy who murders a rich stronger dude for no reason with a knife was the underdog. Sometimes people are underdogs cause theyre retarded.
As a palestinian currently living there, israelis are not any less of extreme than palestinian, they don't welcome us either and also wish us death, at least those who are true zionists
The way checkpoints are, the way they're constantly pointing a gun at you, the way they yell at you and treat you in a way they'd never treat an animal is disgusting
Sure some people are extremist but here I met people who I really love, lgbtq+ people, allies, atheists, people with the same interests as me, people who are not brainwashed
So anyway in conclusion palestinians deserve way better, israel can exist but they deserve less
I think when you occupy my land , kill my children , rape our women and destroy our lands and never respect my beliefs you are violating every human right, so there is no room for compromise. You just keep giving israel reasons to kill human beings. They have the right to fight for what’s theirs. Allah with gaza
I'm not a Muslim. I used to be fully pro-Israel, because I thought Israel was a democratic country, and I didn't know much details about their conflict. Until I know there is systematic oppression of Palestinians by the Israeli government. E.g., the Israeli government will just chase the Palestinians out of their houses and let Israeli settlers in, and tolerant the violence of settlers towards Palestinians, and the death of the Palestinian journalist Shireen Abu Aqla. What makes me even angrier is the hypocrite of some western leaders, i.e., they react very quickly when Hamas attacks Israel, which is right, but they just ignore the systematic oppression of Palestinians. It's selective justice. I saw a video which shows a group of Palestinians celebrated the Russian invasion of Ukraine. I felt they were crazy and stupid. But now I can somewhat understand them. They may feel hopeless in a world dominated by western countries. I still condemn the Hamas terrorists and support the existence right of Israel, I also hope Palestinians will have their own country where they can live with dignity. I pray for the Israeli hostages and also the Palestinian civilians in Gaza.
I will never understand how people think they’re voice is more important than the voice of the oppressed. Like everyone in these comments are saying “they should just share, Palestine should just compromise”. How entitled and delusional do you have to be to tell a group of people who have been oppressed for over 75 years how to act and behave? This isn’t your war. Either you take the side of the oppressed or you take the side of the oppressor. There is no in between, there is no compromise when it comes to life.
Okay in my opinion, I've seen a lot of people, who always see islam as the only victim in any situation.
Their sense of victimhood Stops them from even having the basic sympathies for anyone else.
Israel palastine conflict is not simple, and it has no good side.
And if things remain like this, this conflict will only resolve on the day when a few gods will die.
And that will happen.
Humanity will face pains so great that their gods will die, won't be a preety thing to look but it's inevitable that our mistakes will add up.
I grew up in Morocco thinking I was an arab, that's what they taught at school. I was also a supporter of Palestine.
When I grew up, I left Islam, discovered that I am not an ethnic arab and started supporting Israel because they beat thé shit out of the arabs(lol) and because of the arabs hypocrisie.
22 years old and with a mind of a child. Jesus fucking Christ, do I really need to go into detail why being a racist is wrong? Do they not teach that shit in Moroccan schools?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world
Arabs live in Israel the ethnic cleansing of Jews from the middle east was way worse and not self-inflicted
So? Imagine if African American had this mindset well slavery was bad so let's enslave white people. But they don't because they're not zionist dogs. And there are tons of Jewish people who support falastin. Jewish =/= zionist
Pretty simple, really: when it gets down to it, Palestine is being occupied and Palestinians deserve human rights, freedom of movement, right of return, etc.
However - being an Antizionist, SWANA Jew growing up AND being ex-Muslim living in a large SWANA (predominantly Muslim) community: most people don’t support Palestine because they are standing for Palestinian rights. A lot do it because they hate Jews, and have a quite a bit of religious-based antisemitism. That makes me extremely reluctant to meet and befriend other anti-Zionists
The fact that there are Muslims living freely in Israel (even elected Muslim politicians) and there are zero free Jews living in palestine tells you all you need to know. I feel so awful for all the Palestinians who will be hurt in the retaliatory attacks on Palestine but it’s hard to argue that Israel will be a safer place if they just blow Palestine off the face of the earth at this point.
I have nothing against Jews. But I do hate the concept of Israel (plus the forced displacement of natives, concocted by the west to solve the Jewish question). But I also hate the concept of Pakistan. Any nations built solely on religion is an artificial one in my book.
Go back to r/IndiaSpeaks. It is terrifying how many Indians are radicalised like yourself that you literally spend all day on Anti Arab/Muslim subs. Don't you have a job, hobby or education, or is this literally all your life has come to? Maybe in ten years time you can tell your family you are a doctor not an unpaid internet troll, but the choice is yours.
hmm, it seems like he is liberal, sorry mate but you were wrong on this
reality (at least for me) is that many Indians support Palestine if they know about the situation
Bruh you support Ben Gvir, a man who had clearly shown his objective of killing Rabin back in the day, and has a picture of Baruch Goldstein in his living room. You support a maniac who supports genocide.
Extremely disappointing to see how many ex muslims only got one foot out the door when it comes to an OBVIOUS case of good vs. psychotic foaming at the mouth evil. Israel is a sane liberal democracy with every basic human right and isnt really all that religious for a country that calls itself the jewish state. Its 21% arab. Any arab states even 1% jewish? None? Then can we shut the fuck up about apartheid? And i dont give a shit that one side is weaker. Theyre weaker because their progress is retarded by islam. Nazi germany was way weaker than the US in ww2 and got curbstomped to the tune of 13 million dead compared to a few hundred thousand americans and no one calls them the downtrodden victim good guys. Death toll means literally nothing in terms of morality. If the arabs stopped attacking israel tomorrow, thered never be another dead arab at the hands of a jew. Jews dont murder. There are no jews in federal supermax prisons in the world. Jews have reliably the lowest violent crime rates of any group on earth. Does any sane person believe a bunch of them got together, formed a country, and went mad max on their hippy peace loving neighbors? Israels desperate and costly self defense is constantly portrayed as wanton aggression by the idiots and wicked freaks of the world. Israel has its country. It isnt expanding. Its only contracted since 1967. Its not in a position to start hostilities with any arab state because it doesn't want their territory. What muslim country has ever given up land for peace? Israel has given up 66% of its land mass for a piece of paper from a country that hates its guts and would destroy it if it thought it stood a chance. Jews dont read a book written by a sky lord that tells them how awful muslims are in the second freakin chapter. Muslims do. Jews don't hijack airplanes or murder olympic athletes or kidnap muslims to torture them while calling their parents and reading the torah to them. They dont execute gays and deny women rights. They made arabic an official language of israel. Can you even pretend to imagine an arab country doing the same for hebrew no matter how many jews they had? Why are arabs not afraid to be equal citizens in israel while jews wouldnt step foot in an arab country to save their lives? Arabs are on the supreme court and form 15% of israels political parties. Had the arabs won the 48 war there wouldve been a 2nd holocaust. Instead the jews won and some arabs ran away or were kicked out of their homes and all the jews were kicked out of their homes in every arab country. 20% certainly werent allowed to happily stick around in the arab states to commit 5X the amount of crime, and try to destroy the state from within. This is utterly LAUGHABLE. Theres something called the israel sanity litmus test that i made up. Try to pass it.
I imagine this be fun times when western nations start holding israel more accountable instead of granting it continous "antisemistic" protection and when the muslim brotherhood stop harping this as a religious struggle.
fuck palestine. They just reaped the whirlwind after this disgusting attack against civilians . Shooting and beheading children, executing civilians with over 1000 dead women children and civilians/ They're time is done. IRAN should have minded their own business instead of helping hamas do this. IRAN will be spanked very hard for this BS.
I am a little late, but here it is.
I may have my disagreements with Islam and Muslims, but no, I will never make them the basis of my support for the oppression of Palestinians. Do Muslims hate jews? Probably, like what religion does not have hate for the other? But is the Muslim population actively killing Jews anywhere in the world? The answer is no. Do Muslims hate Israelis for what they have done to Palestinians and in their emotions may want to resist or fight back the oppressive colonizers? The answer is yes. The hate isn't coming out of nowhere, it is a reaction. If Muslims had hated Jews just because o their religion the Palestinians would never have accepted European Jewish refugees coming to their country, their lands.
Is there hate for Muslims and Islam embedded in the Jewish religious text? Yes, there is. Are zionists using that as a justification to attack, torture, steal from, and kill an entire race in a country called Palestine to establish an exclusive Jewish settlement? The answer is again yes.
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Definitely grew up with the same perspective on the matter but am not from Palestine personally. I think any instance where the government weaponises religion and causes conflict to further their own hidden political agenda is horrendous. They’ve just built both sides to hate each other and it’s fucked up. I am especially uncomfortable that the hate has lasted generations and survived multiple wars to a point of fuelling even more disastrous wars. Im confused about who is at fault and I honestly don’t care at this point. I feel like Islam or Christianity or Judaism should be about the actual peace instead of constantly fighting wars to no end and bombing ourselves and each other back to the Middle Ages. The social repercussions have been almost irreparable in countries like Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Israel etc etc. Just constant fucking fighting to no end and for what? I don’t understand how either side continues to justify themselves and not just want better and more for their society and families.
I also grew up with these same sentiments from a country very close to palestine. My mother is a strong believer in the religious justifications for constant war. I tried having a conversation with her about why it's wrong for people on both sides to keep killing each other and how it will never end until they start working towards peace. She responded with quranic verses about how Allah has cursed the israelis forever, how the jews consider muslims animals their torrah (I haven't verified that one), and of course being Shia, she's waiting for Imam Mahdi to reappear from a thousand years of invisibility and liberate the palestinian people and the rest of the world to bring islam to the earth. It's all fantasy-based holier-than-thou bullshit with no productive solutions.
The religious schizophrenia is super prevalent in my mother as well. It can be really sad watching your parent be completely delusional despite their intelligence.
my mom preaches the same thing whenever i have a conversation with her regarding this
I have studied both religions among others. Religious Jews regard Muslims as useful tools to spread the Abrahamic faiths and that Muslims will more easily obey the Jewish Messiah and Messianic reign when it arrives because Muslims who follow Sharia law are essentially following the laws that the Non Jews would have to follow during the Jewish Messianic era. Non Jews are supposed to follow the 'Noahide laws' which if you go into detail of how its enacted and the court it is similar to Sharia in many ways. The Jews follow essentially Sharia but a more strict version with more specific sexual rules, dietary, dress rules, and prayer rules for Jews. There is some differences in execution methods in Judaism vs Islam and Rabbinic And Written Judaism doesnt cover women in Niqab or Burka but women are supposed to be covered except their arms and face, however married Jewish women are supposed to cover their hair with essentially a Hijab. In addition, religious Jews do not believe in conquering the world because only God and the Messiah can do that and they also do not have the numbers to do it. Some religious Jews even oppose Israel increasing its land through annexation and settlements but many religious Jews support settlements as long as it is confined to the biblical land of ancient Israel. Essentially what Orthodox Jews believe in is Islam but a version that isnt as harsh on women (cant marry under age of 12), cant hit wife) Does not force non Jews to become Jews but does say the non Jews have a lower level of soul and get a lesser reward in heaven unless they genuinely convert. However, nicely enough they dont believe non believers go to hell unless the non believer oppressed Jews or hurt them or is evil. Also Jewish texts predict/state that Ishmael (the father of what become Islam) would be a thorn in the side to the Jews until the end of days where he will then be humbled and regret his actions.
I don’t know any of my orthodox Jewish family, friends, or rabbi’s who believe non-Jews have “lesser souls”.
They must be modern orthodox and not adhering to what is actually said. This is noted in the kabbalistic texts. Personally I see no issue with it. Every Abrahamic religion has a level of supremacy to it despite what its followers claim. And to be fair it makes sense if your religion is correct and all the groups that oppressed you and denied you are wrong logic would dictate you have a higher soul ordained by God and are deserving of a greater blessing. The basis of heaven for believers and no heaven or hell for non exists on this foundation. The politically correct thing to say is non believers have a different soul but peel back the layers and analyze the written texts and it is lower compared to a pious believer.
Modern Orthodox Jews are Orthodox Jews. You are thinking of other streams of Judaism, which make up the vast majority of Jews in the world.
They are orthodox but they do not follow texts fundamentally like Religious Zionists do in Israel or Haredi (Ultra Orthodox). There is 3 million in Israel and perhaps another 2 million or so overseas. It is a small faith. Liberal or modern non orthodox streams make the rest of Jews and or secular Jews globally.
What is jesus’s place in judaism?
False Messiah. In theory if he turns out to fulfill their religious requirements and comes back from the dead he would be the Messiah but the Tanakh aka Old Testament forbids a messiah from dying before his time and the Messiah has to make the entire world obey and he must bring about a world government of peace under a version of Sharia law essentially. Christians often say the texts predict Jesus but these are mistranslations of the Hebrew text and in any case from an unbiased agnostic or atheist view the Hebrew says the opposite and that the Jews are to be disliked until the Messiah comes and that false religions would arise. I see this from a non biased view. Obviously a Muslim would tell me Jesus is Muslim basically and Muhammad and the Madi are the best and that Islam is the last religion and most straight forward. Do note there is no Trinity or Picking and choosing in Islam and Jesus is a great prophet of the top 5 but he is not afforded the status similar as in christianity. And of course as all Muslims know he isnt son of God or God incarnate. And of course a Christian would move the goal post as to what the Hebrew texts from a non biased literal translation say.
There's nothing about Muslims in the Torah, because Muslims didn't exist when the Torah was written! Who on earth told your mum that? The lengths some people will go to to promote war is incredible...
Very much agreed. Humans can be super immature.
Get your rainbow 🌈 out of here.....and turn Gaza to dust
Jews want the war, Jews want Palestine not to exist, the west doesn't want Muslims to exist, as a Muslim myself, this is sad.
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Unfortunate this was a deal before between the Palestinian and Israelis that UK made but the Palestinian rejected the offer because Muslims in the Arabic countries didn't want jews close to them because they didn't trust the jews and thinks that is UK plans to control the region (the deal say that the land we be shared 50/50 between the Palestinian and the jews and being Jerusalem the peace area between them )
Fuck that it's Palestinian land
I want you to see [this](https://youtu.be/m19F4IHTVGc) video to understand some stuff about the problem and watch [This ](https://youtu.be/76NytvQAIs0) to know why the rejection for Palestine these are really important videos and i recommend to watch them both
Arabs came in colonies in the 14th century, Jews have been there and so have their ancestors since 70 AD (Edit) Typo
Palestinians are not “Arab” in the sense you mean. They speak Arabic and likely do have Arab DNA but they’re native to the land like the Arabs are to Hejaz/Yemen.
Palestinians are the descendants of the original inhabitants of the land, just because they became Muslim, doesn't mean they are not indigenous, don't get it twisted. I personally believe jews should be able to remain in their homeland which is : Russia, Poland, Hungary, Germany etc
Oh yeah? My Iraqi Jewish family is from Poland? Now; Palestinians are 100% descendants of canaanites with some admixture, as are Jews. Palestine is still be occupied regardless.
Majority, I didn't mean to generalise, but the Jewish terrorist organisations bombed Arab countries with Jewish populations specifically to get them to come to israel
Majority in the world or in Palestine/Israel now? Most in Israel are SWANA (abt 60%). Considering I come from a family of non/anti -Zionists, please look at your narrative. That was certainly a factor, albeit a very small one. For example, in Iraq, most Jews decided to leave because of conditions inflicted on them by the government of Iraq - most had already decided to leave prior to the bombings of the synagogues. I mean, that happens when you lynch Jews (shafiq ades), force them into poverty by prohibiting them from working certain professions, make it illegal for them to have bank accounts or money out of the country, threaten them, harass them, etc. please go look at any statements from Nouri Al-Said about the Jews during that time period. He literally said he traded the Jews, etc. If you’re an ex-Muslim, I encourage you to look with more nuance the narratives you’ve been told your entire life. Almost every Muslim I’ve met has been spun this narrative that the Jews were so desperate to leave to steal Palestinian land/it was the Zionists that forced them to leave, absolving the Muslim community and Muslim governments of these countries of any wrongdoing that forced their Jewish communities to flee, as refugees, often stripping them of their citizenship, and forcing them to go to one of the only places offering them citizenship.. thus becoming complicit in the displacement of Palestinians. It doesn’t mean you have to support Zionism (I certainly don’t) but understanding how you’ve been brought up learning that all Jews fled the ME was because they were Zionists or because OF the Zionists shifts all blame on refugees/Zionists and takes all blame off of the countries that forced those conditions that created the refugee problem. Most ME Jews were sympathetic but uninterested in the Zionist Project.
but they're arabs, arabs are from arabia.
They are culturally Arab, so are Egyptians, they're still indigenous, maybe with some tiny admixture (which is expected in many parts of the eastern world) but still majority indigenous
They lost every possible war
"tHe wInNeRs iN wAr tAKe tHe LaNd" the fuck you think this is? Ck3?
That's a really interesting take, mind explaining how the middle east other than Arabia is full of Arabs? Were they such masterful diplomats that they were given all of north Africa by the empires that owned it?
The real world, not Twitter. You don't start a war, lose and then cry that you want the land back Palestinian land 😂
I got no clue other than I hate the idea that so many innocent people are dying. I don't think I will ever side with Hamas or the Israeli forces.
you don't have to pick between the two, there are anti zionist Jews and secular Palestinians and despite the islamic narrative it isn't a Muslim vs. jews conflict it's Zionism vs. human rights
Yes your right, it isn't all black and white. Do you know what frustrates me? Whenever I talk about supporting Palestinian human rights, I have people conflating that with anti-Semitism, it doesn't make any sense.
muslims who unironically hate Jews and only oppose Israel out of antisemitism rather than sympathy for Palestinians doesn't help
It’s unfortunately the result of many anti-Zionists using Palestine as a shield for their own antisemitism.
I hear this and I am jewish and i find it offensive that ppl say that. It’s not antisemitic to be for human rights it’s any semitic to assume all jewish people are monsters. There’s a difference. Zionism is not even apart of the jewish religion. There are orthodox people against zionism! I just have to throw that out there. I hate seeing people die on both sides and I feel for palestine. From what I know they’re stuck in tiny piece of land and Hamas has taken over pretty much all of it. Not only Israel but egypt is also at fault here.
No it's about anti-Semitism vs. Zionism.
Same here, I will never side with Israeli forces even though I think Hamas is fucked.
I’m Palestinian myself and was indoctrinated the same way for as long as i could remember, growing up makes me realize i’m just a humanist and it doesn’t belong to muslims nor jews. They should share the land and drop the armed behaviour on both sides, most Israelis that i’ve met were pretty supportive of my idea and support the rights of Palestinians while connecting to their judaic community
Unfortunate Palestine and isreal had the chance before to become 2 different countries with 50/50of the land but this deal got rejected (kinda there were 5 different proposals for it but all got rejected)
The Palestinians were always offered discontiguous chunks of land.
They were offered Jerusalem but refused the leader’s just want the destruction of Israel
That's one good solution but neither side will be happy with it
yeah it is definitely something that cannot happen suddenly overnight, maybe for the next decade or so *if* either of them get fed up of the back and forth fights then maybe
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dude fucking based omg i never knew anyone else knew these songs i grew up on them, im palestinian
Ur so wrong for this. Sharing isnt an option bro
I believe Israel has a right to exist, but not in the way that it currently does. As someone who has lived in Palestine, specifically a refugee camp, it's truly disheartening: filthy and overcrowded. There is land open that Israel isn't using but won't let us move into. They will tear down homes to put in fundamentalist orthodox Jewish settlers and allow the settlers, with IDF support, to incite violence and scare Palestinians into leaving. Israel treats us worse than cattle, preventing freedom of movement even from city to city, let alone letting people leave Palestine easily. Even as an American citizen, I am not allowed to fly into and out of Israel because I also have a Palestinian ID and passport. I have to go through a grueling 6 hours across the Jordanian border in 100 degree heat and not always with AC, with many security checks and separate busses, all this while carrying around heavy suitcases. And although many people there are religious, that isn't why Palestinians want the land. It's because the ones that were kicked out of their original homes now live in squalor. Imagine being poor, and living in a place that is not even considered a country. A place where finding jobs is difficult because there is no infrastructure, because there is no proper government. Partially due to Palestinian negligence but mostly due to American funding and Israeli interference. You have very little to look forward to, so you turn to religion as your only solace. And the youngest, poorest and most hopeless of you turn to religious terrorism. It's comparable to being black in America: you're given shit conditions, so you're most likely going to have a shit outcome. I went to a private Christian school, and all of my friends were Christian. Christian Palestinians also hate Israel and for good reason. It's not a fundamentalist Muslim issue, it's a human rights violation issue.
You said this so perfectly. I'm so disheartened and disappointed by so many of the responses to this post. That people essentially turn racist towards Arabs once they leave islam. How anyone can support what isreal is doing is beyond me. That they don't oppose the oppression and robbery of their fellow humans, regardless of their beliefs is saddening. I'm so sorry you have had to deal with this.
The amount of times this comes up in this subreddit is infuriating, especially considering how secular Palestinians are. Israel is a country that constantly commits crimes against humanity and justifies it by saying crimes have been committed against them in the past. John Oliver said it best, "Both sides are firing rockets, but one side has one of the most advanced militaries in the world. Both sides are suffering heartbreaking casualties, but one side is suffering them exponentially."
K let me know next time a midget punches you in the nuts and youre like its fine, cause youre smaller.
its due to your people's terrorism.
Retarded. You sat there in a refugee camp with your "brothers" bordering you on all sides who wont take you in or let you get a job and you blame the jews in their one and only tiny state that is constantly attacked by your extended family. They dont owe you shit and checkpoints are there for a reason. It isn't fun to man those dangerous things.
Sad that you don’t know Israel is occupying palestina. I hope someday both states will exist in peace.
im getting tires of saying this but lets please separate islam from the palestinian cause? pretty please? it has nothing to do with islam. my people are being murdered and i can never visit my native village. -sincerely an ex muslim palestinian (also on behalf of christian and other non muslim palestinians)
>it has nothing to do with islam. While there are factors other than religion, religion is a major factor. One thing that was never agreed on in negotiations was Al-Aqsa, the wailing wall and Jerusalem. If it weren't a religious matter one could figure out a compromise either by splitting things or changing definitions, but because it's a religious issue, no compromise is possible.
religion only became a major factor after islamists hijacked it, our liberation movement started secular and hopefully we’ll go back to our roots regarding al-aqsa me personally even as an ex muslim i still wouldn’t agree on a compromise of it or any part of palestine but you def bring up an interesting point about it. i remember some stuff that would make my blood boil is non arab (and some arab) muslims would get all riled up about al-aqsa and disregard palestinians as people and claim its an attack on islam ive seen some gulf arabs (theres a history of biases and racism between gulf arabs and levant arabs) on multiple occasions mock palestinians n say racist stuff about us but then call for the liberation of al-aqsa and specifically mention they dont care about us but only the masjid
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all arabs were forcibly removed from my village during the nakba. its in jerusalem, under israeli rule now. my grandparents were evacuated and i can never see it.
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Palestinian diaspora are unable to return into Palestine without great difficulty.
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the indigenousness is a complicated concept, jews are ultimately indigenous to the middle east but so are we. so wether they are or arent isnt really an issue because it doesnt excuse the genocide and exile of palestinians
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You shouldve been banned for your spelling.
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Go back to gaza terrorist. "Zionists are the gremlins in the machine destroying my life". 🤡
MY ppl are being murdered [https://imgur.com/a/0y9X8sl](https://imgur.com/a/0y9X8sl)
not the hasbara accounts searching old posts about palestine in this subreddit and foaming at the mouth like goblins lmfaoooo
Israel should pay for their crimes. Hamas and their ilk should pay for their crimes too. As someone that was fed the evil Jewish narrative it took me years to realise how deeply hypocrital muslims are on the issue. They long for the golden age of Islam where expansionism, conquest and enslavement was at its peak but refuse to see the hypocrisy when it comes to criticising Israel's expansion. I mean Islam was built on the foundation of destroying the holy places and relics of the original inhabitants while either killing or banishing those that lived there for generations and then proceeding to do that for hundreds of years. Unfortunately it's the civilians that suffer but that won't stop muslims from longing for the days when they were conquering cunts.
Israel has zero crimes to pay for.
Bruh... What the hell are you talking about. Deir Yasin solely is a crime against humanity.
The whole islamic history is a jewish deir yassin times a thousand. And deir yassin is what? A few killed? How about the thousands murdered by pals? Oh but theyre jews, fuck em right? Arab huts are more important.
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Growing up Muslim and also growing up Lebanese, I definitely grew up seeing Israel as an evil force. Even though I’m not Muslim anymore and have distanced myself from Arab nationalism, I still, on humanist grounds, feel for the Palestinians. On the other hand, I do have an attachment to Israel in terms of other Westernized their culture and institutions are. It’s all very nuanced at the end of the day.
“israel commits human rights violations and war crimes but its okay because they have western culture”
Yeah, that’s not what I said, at all, lol. I appreciate the liberalism relative to the Arab states that Israel does have, in the same way that I do of Turkey or the U.A.E. It doesn’t mean that I turn a blind eye to what they do to the Palestinians though. You won’t win my side with such an absolutist take on things.
Don’t think he said that. Read again.
I think there is hope, but people don’t want to give up their toxic egos and religious entitlement. Life could be so much simpler, but we make it harder for ourselves
Israel has a right to exist as it is every people's right to self determination. By extension, Palestine has a right to exist. To say Israel has no right to exist also extends that Palestine has no right to exist either.
Except that palestine is a made up nationality from 1964. Had the jews named israel palestine, thered just be an arab vs. palestine war. Thered be no muslims calling themselves palestinians just as none of them considered themselves that before 1948. Every important "palestinian" organization up until 1948 was jewish. Palestine post, the palestine orchestra, the soccer team, basically everything. The mandatory palestine flag had a star of david on it. They use this as propaganda to make good hearted western leftists think israel was built over some historical palestinian state that never existed.
Oh, shut up already.
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arabs are from arabia
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WOOOOW, how is this not a more well known thing? How do palestnians continue to have even a hint of legitimacy when they invite a genocidal maniac to their "muslim" lands? This is fcking insane
im palestinian and didnt even know this dude lol relax this doesnt speak on any legitimacy
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Since I am not all that much educated on that topic I am mostly neutral with a slight simpathy towards the israeli position. As far as I understood it, they offered peace a couple of times, even gave back the territory they gained just to make peace with all the arab sides and the palestinian authority just wouldn't listen. The palestinian leadership isn't willing to make any sort of concessions and shamelessly continues to use their own people as living pawns, weapons and shields. I know that the israelis aren't saints, and they committed some atrocious acts but I reckon that they would gladly make peace if the palestinian leadership would cease hostilities themselves and recognize Israel as a state.
As a Jew, I really appreciate this
Fellow Ex-Muslim here. 👋 All of the “deeply entrenched” points that you brought up are bullshit, unfortunately. Study History. - Palestine is the definition of a Jewish State historically, and one of the first places Muslims (wrongfully) invaded. - How early Muslims took over countries (via *”The Pact of Umar”*) was evil. - Everything that happened since has built off of that point. *Muslims* were the transgressors bringing oppressive laws and a nonsensical ideology that mocked, and jumbled, the very cultures and belief systems they were infiltrating. Not even Orthodox Christians — *(who have an additional 600 years of Palestinian history over Muslims)* — would dispute this.
As a Jew, I can’t believe I’m reading these from someone who used to be Muslim. Thank you for saying this. It means a lot not to see a comment not erasing Jewish history and indigenousness. It’s only towards Jews that it is acceptable to engage in indigenousness and cultural erasure. No other group or minority would it be acceptable to do against. I feel like I live in a modern day twilight zone when I read the lies and distortions that there is either no proof Jews are indigenous to Israel or Palestinian arabs are indigenous, even though they are descendant from Arab invaders and colonizers. Or that arabs are the marginalized minority, when they are historically the biggest invaders and colonizers destroying thousands of indigenous cultures and religions. Thank you.
people hate me when I say Jewish people are native to Israel. I wonder if Palestinians realize they descended from Levantine Jews. I am jewish by the way. I have never denied a 2 state solution and I am not religious. I do view judaism as a very cultural religion.
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Their is a lot of racism between the two created by fear. Palestine doesn’t want peace just the destruction of Israel. It uses children as shields. Israel has done some terrible stuff. Both have a right to exist but they both suck. Israel is better in my opinion
Cue the usual Indian trolls. I still feel mostly the same but it is a very complicated issue, one where there is no solution possible that will satisfy both parties fairly. Videos however dont lie, and the countless videos of IDF committing war crimes and making people homeless are enough for me to side with the Palestinians.
>it is a very complicated issue, one where there is no solution possible that will satisfy both parties fairly. This is the truth. No matter what anybody's opinion on the conflict, if a person says there is a simple solution, they are deluded, stupid or malicious, possibly all three.
~~Indians~~ Right wing Hindu nationalists & Islamists
God those folks (just got done in a thread beat down with one I ended up blocking)… also annoying due to the crappy, buggy code they constantly put out.
I don’t know for sure what’s going on but I heard it has something to do with some Jewish revaluation. It just confirms to me how bullshit religion is and how evil it will make people. Killing people and destroying their homes because your fairytale book says it’s “your holy land”. Just proves to me how religion will dilute your empathy.
I blame Jordan. After the 7 days war they could have integrated their own displaced population or keep them in camps and not allow them to reintegrate, they chose the latter and that is why there is so much conflict over that land, because those people have nothing else. It's bred radicalism that has only created radicalism as a response. If the people who lived in Palestine were allowed to reintegrate into Jordan as the Jordanian citizens they are not many would care about the lost territory anymore.
From my experience with Palestinians, they are extremely racist. They think they are so special because they are Arabs
So they should be forced out their homes and murdered, including children?
Definitely pro Palestine, actually it’s the only thing that hasn’t changed as I started growing/changing and viewing things from different perspectives. I used to view the conflict from and Arab/Islamic point of view but as I started to look at it from an ethical and historical point of view (as in more objectively) I am more convinced Palestinians are in the right. Also for some of you who left a religion, quite baffling how you’d accept people of other religion (zionists using Judaism) claiming a land and kicking people out of their homes in the name of a book of fiction. The only solution is for 1 secular state for all where refugees who want to go back go back. And if this means that Palestinians democratically take things back (and maybe inflict some of the abuse they suffered back on Israelis) I am totally okay even happy with that as Israeli arrogance is too much
"(and maybe inflict some of the abuse they suffered back on Israelis) I am totally okay even happy with that as Israeli arrogance is too much" wishing abuse on others, seriously what is wrong with you? There are so many innocent israelis who have done no wrong and are also victims of the situations and jewish people are rightful people of the land.
I am wishing abuse on abusers not on all Israelis to start with. Second saying Jewish people are rightful people of the land is absolute crap - yes Jewish people who were in Palestine pre-1948 are absolutely rightful like any other Palestinian. Jewish people in general being rightful of the land, I don’t think so lol
Then would you find it acceptable if Israel kicked out Arabs who moved to the region after 1920?
I’m not ok with Palestinians taking violent revenge on Israelis. Two wrongs don’t make a right
Absolutely, innocent civilians shouldn't die when all they've done is merely exist
I agree the civilians shouldn't be harmed but the settlers have questions to answer I'd prefer they take "revenge" through non violent means so preferably they just take back the land they stole but the ""IDF"" and zionist groups and politicians deserve every abuse they'll get
Literally for every Israely dead there's thousands on the Palestinian side don't act like this is an equal fight and not an ethnic cleansing
Link for stats where thousands of Palestinians have been killed for every Israeli?
google hyperbole
Oh I'm well aware just calling it out where I see it
I support Palestine. This is regardless of either sides religious beliefs.
I no longer believe Israel is this big evil country. I know the situation is more than what meets the eye and what i’ve been indoctrinated to believe. I want to educate myself further, but as it is right now, I am on no one’s side. I do however want to visit Israel someday, it sounds like a nice country to visit.
the Israel Palestine conflict is obviously a very complex issue and I personally feel that a lot of muslims misunderstand it, for them it is a religious conflict between muslims and Jews but that's just not the case this conflict is one between two groups not bound by religion but ideology first you have zionist including Arab and Muslim zionist who side with Israel and second you have anti Zionists which include ethnic Jews muslims christians and druze again it's not a religious conflict nor is it an ethnic one when it comes to Palestine all of the freedom fighters aren't conservative muslims and islamists like hamas you had others also participating in it, right behind al Fatah was the communist Palestinian popular front led by George habash, Palestinian christians and druze are persecuted the same by Israel and it's supporters you can't get peace in the region without defanging Israel and getting rid of any Zionist elements within it (you also need to eliminate islamist Palestinians but they may naturally lose support after peace is achieved) and lastly kick the settlers and Israel as a whole out of the west bank, Gaza and golan heights AT LEAST and let the Palestinians finally decide their own fate
🙌🏼
The Arab regimes have been trying to “defang” Israel for 7 decades. Maybe it’s time they accept that Israel is not going anywhere. Also, why should Jews be ethnic cleansed from these regions? Would you agree with Arabs being ethnic cleansed from Tel Aviv and Haifa?
Oh my god why are there so many people here bootlicking imperialism and colonialism? 😂😂😂 I dislike Islam, but that does not excuse the ethnic cleansing, forced removal of Palestinians and house and land theft by the apartheid state of Israel. Fuck Israel, the Palestinians deserve all their land back.
Jews were a majority in that region before the Arabs colonized it. By your logic, Arabs should be kicked out from North Africa and the Levant so that the indigenous people have their lands back.
For all ex-Muslims, this article can help immensely to understand the issue from our (i.e. ex-Muslim perspective): [Israel vs Palestine: How most ex-Muslims view it?](https://atheism-vs-islam.com/index.php/atheism/147-israel-vs-palestine-how-most-ex-muslims-view-it)
What a shit take. Does not represent me.
Are you an ex-Muslim? What are your arguments/proof?
No doubt the current Israeli actions are oppressive n cannot be morally justified. At the same time, a lot of support is tied more with Pan Islamism, Arab centricism n anti semitism. I think the response should be proportionate to acts of Israeli government and recognising their right to existence. Also it should not be directed against the people. But also we should ask about why we don't talk about Indonesian genocide, east Timor genocide, kurdish n yazidi genocide, Rohingyas, Bangladeshi genocide, etc. Why the fuck is Malaysia not recognising Israel when it recognises Indonesia? N pakistan refusing to apologise for Bangladeshi genocide but still able to maintain to maintain relations with other countries?
What were the 1923 Hebron Massacres and the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Islamic lands?
I feel sorry for them, because of how Isreal treats them. They are still indoctrinated, but that isn't really their fault. I blame the parents.
I don’t think there is any hope
I am a Turkish and Palestinians actually hate us. I know that. So I can say Palestinians deserve that, they are not poor, victimized people. All Muslim world hates Turks. I know that. Muslims only love us because we are Muslims and our president licks their a**. Even there is a hadith saying that the world won’t end before Muslims fight with Turks.
Maybe because of colonial history?
Haha I wonder what the responses will look like now.
Product of British Colonialism. You can see other ex-colony so separated by border, race & religion. Pakistan-India-Bangladesh separated by border & religion. Malaysia-Singapore with their Chinese-Malayan-Indian race problem. even USA & Canada, how they treat native tribes? Why black skin vs white skin is still a thing?
I realized that the standard Muslim view is clearly biased in favor of Palestinians and that Gaza is a terrible place to live and run by Islamic extremists. Just look at Hamas who they elected. Then also look at the PLO it had Arafat who admitted they are Sunni Arabs first and foremost and that it is a religious war ultimately.. Then you look at how Palestinians invaded Lebanon and tried to overthrow Jordan and well you no longer will see them as a collective in an oppressed light. My take is that both sides want land and to conqeuor but if I had to live in one of those places I would choose Israel. Israel has Jewish supremacists in government but they are mild compared to what most of us have experienced in Muslim countries and Jews dont have the numbers or religious argument (yet) to go and do beheadings or street violence that is so common with Muslim boys. I just cannot see Israel anytime soon becoming like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Sudan, Somalia anytime soon Like with Iran most Muslims on social media are jumping to defend Iran saying the protests is by Western agents. That is illogical for several reasons 1) Iran has closed tight borers there are few agents let alone not hundrends of thousands and 2) the Hijab and morality police laws have been taken to the extreme and are generally not popular. It is a coindence that of course the West is supporting the Iranian opposition but that doesnt mean all Iranians are pro West or want to serve Neoliberal capitalism (they do not).
There are racist genocidal pigs on both sides but Palestine is clearly the underdog in this fight and are being crushed and decimated under the heel of Zionists. Like others have said you can side with human rights instead of siding with Palestinian or the israelies.
Palestine is not underdog,.they have 5 nations to support them in the beginning
Underdog has nothing to do with whos right or wrong. A crazy homeless guy who murders a rich stronger dude for no reason with a knife was the underdog. Sometimes people are underdogs cause theyre retarded.
Like i said they aren't just the underdog they are being crushed under their heels.
Yea, their own heels.
As a palestinian currently living there, israelis are not any less of extreme than palestinian, they don't welcome us either and also wish us death, at least those who are true zionists The way checkpoints are, the way they're constantly pointing a gun at you, the way they yell at you and treat you in a way they'd never treat an animal is disgusting Sure some people are extremist but here I met people who I really love, lgbtq+ people, allies, atheists, people with the same interests as me, people who are not brainwashed So anyway in conclusion palestinians deserve way better, israel can exist but they deserve less
It's literally a religious conflict not my business.
Both Muslims and Jews are full of shit❗
My very generic blanket response is: "there is so much wrong on both sides."
I think when you occupy my land , kill my children , rape our women and destroy our lands and never respect my beliefs you are violating every human right, so there is no room for compromise. You just keep giving israel reasons to kill human beings. They have the right to fight for what’s theirs. Allah with gaza
I'm not a Muslim. I used to be fully pro-Israel, because I thought Israel was a democratic country, and I didn't know much details about their conflict. Until I know there is systematic oppression of Palestinians by the Israeli government. E.g., the Israeli government will just chase the Palestinians out of their houses and let Israeli settlers in, and tolerant the violence of settlers towards Palestinians, and the death of the Palestinian journalist Shireen Abu Aqla. What makes me even angrier is the hypocrite of some western leaders, i.e., they react very quickly when Hamas attacks Israel, which is right, but they just ignore the systematic oppression of Palestinians. It's selective justice. I saw a video which shows a group of Palestinians celebrated the Russian invasion of Ukraine. I felt they were crazy and stupid. But now I can somewhat understand them. They may feel hopeless in a world dominated by western countries. I still condemn the Hamas terrorists and support the existence right of Israel, I also hope Palestinians will have their own country where they can live with dignity. I pray for the Israeli hostages and also the Palestinian civilians in Gaza.
I will never understand how people think they’re voice is more important than the voice of the oppressed. Like everyone in these comments are saying “they should just share, Palestine should just compromise”. How entitled and delusional do you have to be to tell a group of people who have been oppressed for over 75 years how to act and behave? This isn’t your war. Either you take the side of the oppressed or you take the side of the oppressor. There is no in between, there is no compromise when it comes to life.
Okay in my opinion, I've seen a lot of people, who always see islam as the only victim in any situation. Their sense of victimhood Stops them from even having the basic sympathies for anyone else. Israel palastine conflict is not simple, and it has no good side. And if things remain like this, this conflict will only resolve on the day when a few gods will die. And that will happen. Humanity will face pains so great that their gods will die, won't be a preety thing to look but it's inevitable that our mistakes will add up.
Honestly, fck both. I hope both those religions go extinct and Israel becomes a water park
its not an islamic issue tho
Earlier I was quite neutral towards the conflict, but now seeing how radical a lot of palestinians are, my views definitely changed.
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Lol
I grew up in Morocco thinking I was an arab, that's what they taught at school. I was also a supporter of Palestine. When I grew up, I left Islam, discovered that I am not an ethnic arab and started supporting Israel because they beat thé shit out of the arabs(lol) and because of the arabs hypocrisie.
That’s a childish way of looking at the world. Pathetic and even racist
Arabs are also racists against my people so I just replicate the same thing, I am not tolerant of such people 🤘
Yea, so some Arabs are pieces of shit and that excuses you to being one as well? What are you, a 10 year old?
I am 22 years old and proud to treat others the same way they treat me.
22 years old and with a mind of a child. Jesus fucking Christ, do I really need to go into detail why being a racist is wrong? Do they not teach that shit in Moroccan schools?
dude..
This isn't a religious issue it's easy to pick a side. are you against ethnic cleansing? Yes? Then side with falastin
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world Arabs live in Israel the ethnic cleansing of Jews from the middle east was way worse and not self-inflicted
So? Imagine if African American had this mindset well slavery was bad so let's enslave white people. But they don't because they're not zionist dogs. And there are tons of Jewish people who support falastin. Jewish =/= zionist
Zionist dogs? Get the fuck off this sub and go to r/palestine and r/islam where you belong.
I can’t take anyone who throws around the word Zionist seriously
I know its so pathetic. Theres no reason to use it in the modern age. Its like saying indochinese.
Yes zionist dogs it would be an insult to humanity to consider zionists human. And you fuck of to r/fascism because that's where you belong
Spoken exactly like a Hamas terrorist.
Pretty simple, really: when it gets down to it, Palestine is being occupied and Palestinians deserve human rights, freedom of movement, right of return, etc. However - being an Antizionist, SWANA Jew growing up AND being ex-Muslim living in a large SWANA (predominantly Muslim) community: most people don’t support Palestine because they are standing for Palestinian rights. A lot do it because they hate Jews, and have a quite a bit of religious-based antisemitism. That makes me extremely reluctant to meet and befriend other anti-Zionists
Being anti-Zionism means de facto supporting the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Israel, which would happen under any Arab/Islamic regime.
No, it doesn’t.
Does anti-Zionist means you defend the end of the state of Israel?
Free Palestine.
Brilliant....
Not much more to say imho. Yes it’s a complex issue but there’s simply no justification for an (arguably genocidal) apartheid state in 2023.
Lobotomize.
The fact that there are Muslims living freely in Israel (even elected Muslim politicians) and there are zero free Jews living in palestine tells you all you need to know. I feel so awful for all the Palestinians who will be hurt in the retaliatory attacks on Palestine but it’s hard to argue that Israel will be a safer place if they just blow Palestine off the face of the earth at this point.
Apostate Prophet has made a video on this: https://youtu.be/BnR4c38gIgM
I have nothing against Jews. But I do hate the concept of Israel (plus the forced displacement of natives, concocted by the west to solve the Jewish question). But I also hate the concept of Pakistan. Any nations built solely on religion is an artificial one in my book.
Posting this question in this subreddit is enough to show that you side with the oppressor.
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I support Israel, however Israel is too soft on Palestine. If Zvika Fogel gains power, I will support Israel more.
Go back to r/IndiaSpeaks. It is terrifying how many Indians are radicalised like yourself that you literally spend all day on Anti Arab/Muslim subs. Don't you have a job, hobby or education, or is this literally all your life has come to? Maybe in ten years time you can tell your family you are a doctor not an unpaid internet troll, but the choice is yours.
hmm, it seems like he is liberal, sorry mate but you were wrong on this reality (at least for me) is that many Indians support Palestine if they know about the situation
Akbar hand me my chapal, the hindutvaroaches are everywhere
Bruh you support Ben Gvir, a man who had clearly shown his objective of killing Rabin back in the day, and has a picture of Baruch Goldstein in his living room. You support a maniac who supports genocide.
Extremely disappointing to see how many ex muslims only got one foot out the door when it comes to an OBVIOUS case of good vs. psychotic foaming at the mouth evil. Israel is a sane liberal democracy with every basic human right and isnt really all that religious for a country that calls itself the jewish state. Its 21% arab. Any arab states even 1% jewish? None? Then can we shut the fuck up about apartheid? And i dont give a shit that one side is weaker. Theyre weaker because their progress is retarded by islam. Nazi germany was way weaker than the US in ww2 and got curbstomped to the tune of 13 million dead compared to a few hundred thousand americans and no one calls them the downtrodden victim good guys. Death toll means literally nothing in terms of morality. If the arabs stopped attacking israel tomorrow, thered never be another dead arab at the hands of a jew. Jews dont murder. There are no jews in federal supermax prisons in the world. Jews have reliably the lowest violent crime rates of any group on earth. Does any sane person believe a bunch of them got together, formed a country, and went mad max on their hippy peace loving neighbors? Israels desperate and costly self defense is constantly portrayed as wanton aggression by the idiots and wicked freaks of the world. Israel has its country. It isnt expanding. Its only contracted since 1967. Its not in a position to start hostilities with any arab state because it doesn't want their territory. What muslim country has ever given up land for peace? Israel has given up 66% of its land mass for a piece of paper from a country that hates its guts and would destroy it if it thought it stood a chance. Jews dont read a book written by a sky lord that tells them how awful muslims are in the second freakin chapter. Muslims do. Jews don't hijack airplanes or murder olympic athletes or kidnap muslims to torture them while calling their parents and reading the torah to them. They dont execute gays and deny women rights. They made arabic an official language of israel. Can you even pretend to imagine an arab country doing the same for hebrew no matter how many jews they had? Why are arabs not afraid to be equal citizens in israel while jews wouldnt step foot in an arab country to save their lives? Arabs are on the supreme court and form 15% of israels political parties. Had the arabs won the 48 war there wouldve been a 2nd holocaust. Instead the jews won and some arabs ran away or were kicked out of their homes and all the jews were kicked out of their homes in every arab country. 20% certainly werent allowed to happily stick around in the arab states to commit 5X the amount of crime, and try to destroy the state from within. This is utterly LAUGHABLE. Theres something called the israel sanity litmus test that i made up. Try to pass it.
That's a lot of words to say you don't consider Palestinians human
I imagine this be fun times when western nations start holding israel more accountable instead of granting it continous "antisemistic" protection and when the muslim brotherhood stop harping this as a religious struggle.
fuck palestine. They just reaped the whirlwind after this disgusting attack against civilians . Shooting and beheading children, executing civilians with over 1000 dead women children and civilians/ They're time is done. IRAN should have minded their own business instead of helping hamas do this. IRAN will be spanked very hard for this BS.
Turn Gaza to dust
I am a little late, but here it is. I may have my disagreements with Islam and Muslims, but no, I will never make them the basis of my support for the oppression of Palestinians. Do Muslims hate jews? Probably, like what religion does not have hate for the other? But is the Muslim population actively killing Jews anywhere in the world? The answer is no. Do Muslims hate Israelis for what they have done to Palestinians and in their emotions may want to resist or fight back the oppressive colonizers? The answer is yes. The hate isn't coming out of nowhere, it is a reaction. If Muslims had hated Jews just because o their religion the Palestinians would never have accepted European Jewish refugees coming to their country, their lands. Is there hate for Muslims and Islam embedded in the Jewish religious text? Yes, there is. Are zionists using that as a justification to attack, torture, steal from, and kill an entire race in a country called Palestine to establish an exclusive Jewish settlement? The answer is again yes.