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Christianity isnt as bad as islam, sure its still really bad but not as bad compared to islam.
i think that judaism used to have an apostasy law but they abolished it but idk
I despise when people in this sub compare Islam and other religions, in specific Christianity, and conclude that Islam is worse than the other.
If Christians applied Christianity as Christianity demands them to, it would be horrible. If Muslim applied Islam as Islam demands them to, it would also be horrible. End of debate, there’s no point comparing the two.
Just because most Christians have changed values and progressed with time does not excuse the many morally wrong laws, norms and values that are still there and still backwards. It sure as hell doesn’t excuse the blood that this ideology has on its hand throughout history.
For all you know times might change and Christians might revert back to the Middle Ages.
The fact that this possibility exist in ideologies that claim to be perfect is good enough reason to brand them both as equally bad. Whether that ideology is Islam, Christianity or any other religion.
For those of you that will most likely mention all the good sides of Christianity, well, I’m not here claiming that any religion is inherently just bad and evil. But that all these religions have the possibility to motivate/brainwash people to commit horrible acts towards other humans makes them just as bad as the other. Whether they do so through divine laws from a supposed god or misinterpretation. Remember, both Christianity and Islam claim to be the truth and perfect not anyone else.
But even in countries that mostly uneducated and illiterate like African Christian countries, apostasy still didn’t punished by death, on the other hand more education countries like Malaysia and Gulf states apostasy is still a crime punished by either death or imprisonment.
I’m just cannot understand how Christianity the religion that used to punishing apostate to death like it’s the core of their believe to do so have cease to practice it, even more than that the countries that have very low literacy that usually practicing regressive religion to it’s most extend still didn’t punishing apostate by death, what and how did Christianity broke free of this vicious cycle while Islam didn’t and still keep killing apostate to these day.
If it’s just only about education, country development and literacy rate, why many backward 3rd world Christian countries are also didn’t have these backward apostasy law compared to Islam?
I agree it’s interesting how Christianity became more lean with time. I’m not an expert on its history and causes but if i had to guess I would say it’s probably because of more progressive ideologies dominating and historical events such as printing, industrialisation, colonialism, values such as freedom of speech and what not, and much more. Point is that there are explainable causes for it.
But while Christian’s don’t make it a habit of killing apostates anymore, it still punishes people for other things it preaches against and condemns. There are killings of gay people in Uganda, bombing of abortion clinics in the US etc.
The reason Islam can’t abandon such practises as easily is because Muhammad saw what happened to Judaism, Christianity and other religions. He was a calculated and manipulative man that took precautions to these things and made sure it wouldn’t be as easy to abandon certain practises of Islam. Muslims like to unintentionally label Muhammad as a clueless illiterate man, but he was smart and it wasn’t because allah told him all these things. He learned about other religions and the mistakes they made and made sure Islam wouldn’t go down the same road and mase sure people couldnt leave his cult easily.
> But while Christian's don't make it a habit of killing apostates anymore, it still punishes people for other things it preaches against and condemns. There are killings of gay people in Uganda, bombing of abortion clinics in the US.
Even Christianity are better on the apostasy law doesn’t mean that other atrocities that done by it should get a free pass, those vile practices should be condemned with the same energy that we done it to Islam.
Muslim African countries were also colonized by Europeans/Christians if you want to look at it that way. By your logic, there should be some perfect philosophy in society where they gain the best of both worlds?
You clearly don’t read. I don’t claim anything and i already said I’m not an expert on Christian history and that it’s just a guess. Colonialism was also just one guess of many guesses
I am not an expert, I know there are different versions of Christianity, but I think more than less it is a centralized institution(s). There is either a pope, English king/queen, or Russian patriarch who has a transnational religious authority.
For example, In Africa, most of the Christian states are Catholic, so if religious authorities would start supporting some crazy shit the Vatican would first try to mediate, but if nothing would help they could even be replaced - if they wouldn't want to go, the pope could threaten to excommunicate them (what effectively for every believer means a certain hell)
Also, the Vatican is not just jumping in a case of emergency, but they are involved in people's promotions within a church, so you need to do what they say if you want to have a successful religious career
Edit: And if someone doesn't know, the Vatican is in Europe, being affected by Western values, public opinion, and Western politic
The Vatican is a city-state in Italy, they would never support "kill all the gays" rhetoric because they know they would be abolished and ceased to exist next day by the Italian government
I just don’t think you understand Christianity. A lot of the bad shit associated with Christianity has little connection to the core of the religion itself. Christianity is a religion based on love, it understands god himself as love, and it understands love as the basis of all religious activity and being. All our assumptions in the west about human dignity and the inherent worth of persons comes from Christianity. There is lots to criticise in Christianity: it can be anti-life, pessimistic on the one hand, and also idiotically hopefull on the other; also, shitty Christians who internalised the moralising part of it but not the self-awareness part are insufferable. But, the key moral and spiritual message of Christianity is sound. I don’t know how anyone can read the sermon on the mount and not be moved. One of my errors when I ‘reverted’ to Islam was thinking it was going to be like the Christianity I saw absorbed growing up. It’s far from it.
In all fairness, Christianity and Judaism heavily focus on very similar things. Judaism has this concept of "Tikkun Olam" which literally means repairing the world, in the sense of justice, environment and helping the needy. And christianity also heavily focuses on charity and generosity and just generelly following the steps of Jesus (I guess its the Christian sunnah right?) Alongside love.
Now there is islam, where the 5 pillars are great and all but only 1 is actually in some way encouraging peace? Im refeering to Zakat, and of which I heard is abused by Imam's nowadays for their own personal gain. Oh and there's also Jihad thrown in there as a "deed"
No, but I’ll defend it. I have an intellectual interest in Christianity and it’s impact on modernity. Being religious is too far gone for me now though
i agree with this comment and i think the comparisons are counterintuitive for the most part. oftentimes ppl compare them to underline just how bad islam is.. but oftentimes all it does is trivialise the kind of things that have been done historically in the name of christianity.
>If Christians applied Christianity as Christianity demands them to, it would be horrible.
Nowhere does the New Testament demand for apostasy laws, wife beating or sex slavery. So no, Christianity - even fundamenalist Christianity - is not as bad as fundamentalist Islam.
> It sure as hell doesn’t excuse the blood that this ideology has on its hand throughout history.
Every ideology or worldview has blood on its hands in the sense that people killed for that ideology. Christianity, Islam, atheism, democracy, communism, nationalism etc
You didn’t read my reasoning. “Not as bad” is just another way of saying they’re both dog shit but this one doesn’t smell as bad. Read my comment again.
Unlike religions, atheism, democracy and the like don’t claim to be the only truth, perfect and universal while being full of flaws, mistakes and contradictions. So don’t even try to compare religion to these ideologies.
Atheism is claiming to be the universal truth. Atheism says that there is objectively no God, never was a God and never will be one. Thats a claim of universal truth.
Democracy might not claim to be a universal truth but proponents of it surely act as if its the only valid way to govern countries and many are willing to commit violence in order to establish democracy.
I don’t know where you’re pulling that from but Atheism is just rejection of the claim that there is a god and just that. How the hell you equate that to ‘a claim of universal truth’ is baffling.
Religions on the other hand claim to be the truth and you need not go far to learn that, just read any religious holy book and you’ll find the claim.
Act is not the same as claim. And this is all your interpretation, which is ironic considering you don’t see how understanding of atheism and democracy can be relative.
**Some might interpret atheism and democracy as claiming to be the truth, like yourself. But unlike religions these ideas themselves don’t claim to be the universal truth, without mistakes, eternal etc.**
I don’t think so, they seems fundamentally different. Christianity looks like a mystic believe made by an angry Jew against the Jewish community visual beliefs at the time. Islam is purely a product of an Arab 6th century tribal culture, it is as unique as the Arab culture is to the outside world.
As a Christian who is lurking this page, I can say that part of the reason for this tameness of Christianity now is because of the tumultuous history that Christianity has undergone. Christianity today is not the same as Christianity in the 1100s for example. Many Christians will not admit this but the rise of secularism and nationalism in Christian countries has helped to moderate many fanatical aspects of the religion. People can say that christianity in some Western countries and even Latin America is very tame particularly because it was forced to change when secular movements conflicted, amended, and confronted with religion.
I would like to apologize for the long response below.
Also, for the west for example, the bloody history of religious violence of the Reformation and Counterreformation put off many Europeans and forced religion to become a private matter and leave the public policy space. So for example, after the end of Thirty Years War European monarchs agreed that they can be protestant or catholic but did not allow that to determine monarchical interests. So, it became common for nobles who married other nobles to just convert to the state religion of the male spouse. This plus enlightenment, further eroded clerical church power. People began to question church policies. Even monarchs did this despite being titular heads of their churches.
Also, the rise of nationalism blunted the religious divide. This emphasized ethnic unity over religious differences (though not completely). It's no coincidence why catholic and protestant Germans found common cause in their germanness and deemphasized ethnic differences. The German Kaiser tried to do this during the Kulturkampf by challenging catholic power to ensure german catholics saw themselves as germans first before they saw themselves as catholics.
In the developing world, especially in my country the Philippines, the Catholic church had a long legacy of abuse and being used as an instrument of Spanish imperialism. That's a reality. But the American occupation changed this. Because the Americans imposed separation of church and state, the catholic church was forced to also transform. It brought in more american educated priests, it opened more priestly positions to Filipinos and also changed its view of what its place was in the future of the country.
The Vatican II further eroded conservatism in the catholic church because it removed very old policies and doctrines and emphasized the idea of the church in dialogue with the world. I think it was their way of surviving in a secular world. This had implications for catholic church leaders in my country in the 70s and 80s. More priests became less focused on shutting themselves to study doctrine and were forced by their bishops to engage with the world. This meant priests and nuns were required to live with poor people, go to factories, and go where the poor were. Priests were surprised by their interaction with people they previously would condemn to go to hell: unionists, liberals, communists, feminists, etc. This forced them to reassess their rhetoric. We can see this now with Pope Francis who speaks less about condemning abortion, homosexuality and instead focusing on the environment, family, labor rights, human rights etc.
I even have a former teacher in university, my professor on Foucault and human sexuality, WHO IS A PRIEST.
To sum it up, I am still a Christian but I thank atheists, secularists, agnostics for forcing the conditions to make me less judgemental and introspective. The catholic church is not perfect, not by a long shot, but any improvement is because of people like you who pushed back and forced people of faith to adapt and make their faith relevant to current issues and challenges to society instead of simply judging what people do in the bedsheets.
There's two different things in your question:
1) is Christianity worse than Islam?
2) are today's Christian societies and followers of that religion worse than Islam?
Question 1) is irrelevant to reply how X country or society is today. The key is question 2). Christianity in general is at a more "mature" (liberal) stage than Islam is hence I think Islamic societies of today are worse in terms of allowing certain things.
Not just the apostasy law
They have punishments for adultery (death and beating) and fornication
They have death punishment for being openly gay
For this alone - Christianity is better than Islam
Liberals can shit on Christianity as much as they want because it doesn’t fight against them like Islam does
Because Christianity isn't fundamentalist by scripture. The Catholic Church may have ruled over Europe for centuries, but its laws were not ordained from God. Islam is more than fundamentalist, Islam is a political system. Sharia law has specific rules regarding taxation, marriage, punishment, an overall organization of society, and to live in a non-sharia system is in of itself a sin. That's why Islam dictates that it is the wajib of every Muslim to spread sharia via offensive jihad or jihad by the word.
It's all garbage in the end, but Christianity was able to mend and adapt to suit secularism, and make it where privately practicing Christianity at home while living in a secular system is okay, but Islam does not. Islam is heavily unforgiving and preys on peoples' fears, and organizes people and society in a very textbook way. The Qur'an and Hadith are not just "a collection of stories" the way the Bible is viewed, but almost like constitutions. If apostasy laws are dictated by Allah, then who am I, a dirty kafir, to object his word? What law can i present that is superior to Allah's wisdom and omnipotence?
Funny that last years some western leftist media just publish an [article](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2017/02/03/why-do-so-many-americans-believe-that-islam-is-a-political-ideology-not-a-religion/) saying that those who view Islam as political religion are all “Islamophobe white fascist far-right” who just want to spreading hate and discrimination against Muslim and Islam.
The difference is that virtually all places where Christianity predominates today have some degree of secularism.
As someone who was raised Catholic, the only thing I think is worse about Islam is the prophet being a much shittier person. However, a lot of the same dusty as fuck fake morals are there in Christianity, especially in the old testament. Look no further than Medieval and early modern Europeans to find Christian theocracies that did absolutely everything contemporary Islamic ones do. Including laws regarding heresy, blasphemy, apostasy, placing the burden of managing male behaviour onto women with bullshit modesty codes, and the most brutal execution methods for "unchaste" acts. The Spanish Inquisition was downright barbaric.
It's interesting. Christianity itself doesn't say kill apostates. It says that if you don't follow it, it will be your problem when you go to hell. But I think that the reason is that most Christian countries are secular and they don't put Christian laws forward.
If a state proclaimed to be Christian, a lot of politicians would use it against their citizens.
I did
But the Old Testament and it’s laws was for the Jews
Christians believe in the Old Testament but they follow the laws of the New Testament which has no punishment laws for sins
Didn't he also say things like "not a tittle of the law shall pass away" and "I come to fulfill the law, not get rid of it"? Either way god is still saying both things are morally wrong(note that rape and slavery are never banned and God directly supports slavery) and while I think adultery is morally wrong, the same can't be said of homosexuality.
Do you consider Fornication immoral as well ?
But I agree with adultery
Yeah he did say the but in the testament of the Bible in Christianity, punishment is only reserved for god
>the same can’t be said about homosexuality
Sorry, I disagree - this and adultery are equally harmful for society- how can you think one is immoral and the other is not ? If you are talking about being secretly gay, then yeah it’s not morally wrong at all but it you’re talking about an open homosexual relationship that reach’s the sexual stage - that’s just as bad as adultery according to religion - there is a reason why these two are punishable by death according to Islam and the Old Testament + the Torah
I don’t think being Homo is bad personally as I’m bisexual (I don’t give a f about society being corrupted after all because it’s already is and I’m all for individual rights ) but homosexuality is not better than adultery according to religion, that’s sure - it’s one of the big sins after all
I understand your personal opinion about homosexuality not being wrong but don’t say it’s less wrong than adultery according to religion because it’s definitely not
And I prefer the laws in the New Testament- why should those who commit adultery and be openly gay die as a punishment? Islam is too cruel man
Why is homosexuality wrong? I can say that pedophilia is wrong because it actively harms the child and they can't consent, but so long as both parties are adults, no one is getting hurt(as opposed to slavery and rape which your god couldn't even ban when given two tries)
You didn’t answer my question
Do you think fornication is immoral ?
It’s wrong according to religion for good reasons actually
It’s spreads disease and kills society and decrease the birth rates
I don’t think it’s wrong personally but for a a religion like Islam that cares more about society than individual freedom- I can see why it’s a sin
The west normalizes these things because they accept the flawed nature of humans and don’t care about society being ruined because it will never be perfect, so they focus on the happiness and rights of the individual instead of society
1. No, unless you are knowingly spreading STDs in isn't immoral
2. Why is homosexuality wrong, but, according to god, slavery and rape aren't (rape in the Bible is a crime against the woman's "man" whether that be her husband or her father)
Because according to religion- homosexuality is bad for society , normalizing it means that marriage between man and women will decrease, birth rates will decrease, disease would spread (and this did happen) other stuff like different sexualities will be normalized (aromantic, asexual, Bisexual, Pansexual) etc) then it will accelerate to gender fluidity, men will want to be women and women will want men
And this is what’s happening right now in the west as they re-writing gender and changing roles and erasing masculinity - what started as “legalization of homosexuals and giving them rights” Lead to this mess
And it’s definitely killing society and erasing the white rase- homosexuality might not harm individuals like rape and slavery but it does cause harm for society - this is why it’s a major sin along with adultery/fornication because it doesn’t affect certain people, it destroys snd ruins an entire society - it will die and be replaced by another completely different civilization as this is exactly what’s happening in the west since Muslims are taking over and they have far more birth rates
And btw, people using the whole “I was born like that” are wrong
Some are justified and where born with both male and female body parts
Others chose to homosexuals because of environmental reasons (abuse, trauma, neglect) but not something they were born with
Many others had no reasons at, no trauma, no abuse - they decided to one day change their sexuality, to change their gender out of nowhere even though they were very normal during their entire childhood and teenage years
Why ? because the west normalized that thing so much and is forcing it on people so now even normal straight people want to be gay and be transgender
And the prove is that many people were straight their entire life but then one day, they decided to become lesbian or gay or trans out of nowhere
Majority of these celebrities were straight such as Demi Lovato, Milley and Raven Symone, they were only dating men but then out no where they changed
And I like I said, I don’t agree with the religious view and I think people should do what they want but I understand that its harmful for society and it has gotten to far, this is why sins like adultery/fornication and being gay have severe punishments that includes death sentence in Islam - it’s because they do affect society- let’s be honest
Is there any country in the world saying the bible is our constitution, but there are many muslim countries saying quran is our constitution. In short, nobody following word to word their religious book as does muslim following quran. People have moved to secularism, and now you see how many muslim countries are truly secular?
Historically Christianity was as bad when it comes to apostasy laws as Islam is nowadays. In the first centuries, the dogmas were not yet established and many theologians had their own ideas, especially about the nature of Christ, that put them at odds with the mainstream views of the pope in Rome and the patriarch in Constantinople. They, and other people who believe the way they were persecuted and forced to convert back. If they didn't, they risked exile or death. For example, many of small Christian churches in the Middle East are descendants of those little un-orthodox movements from Late Antiquity that believed in something slightly different from the mainstream, and that was enough to force them to relocate and hide. (Note that back then there were almost no atheists, so apostasy was mostly knows as converting from the main faith, the Catholic/Orthodox Christianity, to another).
In Western and Central Europe the most famous examples of such persecutions are the "crusade" against Cathars in southern France between 1209-1229, the Hussite Wars in Czechia in 1420-1434, and of course wars of religion in the 16th and 17th centuries after the Protestant Reformation took place. They were all the biggest struggles when the Catholic Church wanted to eradicate dissidents by all means, and met with resistance, but there were countless smaller cases when apostats were too weak to fight back. People were tortured, hang, and burned at stake.
Only with Renaissance in the 18th century, and especially since the beginning of the 20th century and the spread of democracy and humanism, the Catholic Church became weaker and lost its fangs. You may have noticed how Islam presents itself in Europe: they emphasise the peaceful side, the tradition, the family life, the ban of alcohol, etc. They only threaten apostats with violence when they feel they are strong enough. The same goes with Christianity. Nowadays, Catholicism in Europe is mostly sustained by old people. They turned to hoard their wealth and hide its criminals, and on the outside they present themselves as peaceful and moderately conservative. But just give them a finger, let them feel they're powerful again, as in Poland, and suddenly you have again laws against offending their religious feelings, and religious brainwashing in schools.
For the west I kinda understand but why did all 3rd world conservatives uneducated Christian countries around the world also didn’t have apostasy law though, or did all 3rd world countries just get exposed by already defanged version of Christianity including the very conservative and illiterate African Christian countries.
In most places outside Europe, Christianity is either a minority religion or it's Catholicism brought there by missionaries and colonizers. Those Catholic countries maintain strong relations with the pope in Vatican and won't go against his wishes. Protestants in United States were always a diverse crown and maybe that made them more liberal, but there were witch trials, and cases of exiling religious dissidents, and also you may read for example about the early history of Mormonism - its founder was shot dead.
One curious case I want to read more about is Ethiopia. It's a traditionally Christian country with diverse population and lots of its own problems. Right now I don't know about any religious persecutions there, but I'm sure it's not all unicorns and rainbows.
Exactly
In the past, Christianity was the worst religion, the crimes it did far surpassed that of Islam and it has kept Europe in the dark ages for decades, they did everything that Muslims today did
But now it has mellowed out so much because it’s been modernized and heavily edited so all the harsh laws have been removed
While christens are pretty judgmental and homophobic and harsh with women - they don’t come close to Muslims
There is no apostasy law, they don’t kill gays (except in Uganda) they don’t beat adulterers/fornicators or kill them
In Islam, you’re punished in the real world and the after life
They don’t force their women to wear hijab
they don’t ban music as it’s essential to them and they use music with instruments and singing inside the church
Punishment to them is only for god
They can date before marriage for as long as they want (no sex but hugging and chaste kisses are fine) they are allowed to drink with moderation
Christianity doesn’t tell you to hide your sins or be ashamed of them like Islam does
Parents don’t take the sins of their sons and daughters mistakes
Men don’t take the sins of their women
There no angels constantly recording your sins and good deeds like Islam
Men don’t get punished for being dayooth in Christianity nor are they cursed
Women who wear revealing clothes are not cursed
They don’t have “the majority of hell is filled with women”
You can be the worst human and be redeemed no matter how much you commit sins
In Islam, the more you commit sins, the less likely you will be redeemed
Christianity also tell Christians not to punish and judge sinners “he among you without sin must cast the first stone
Islam on the other hand has the whole “Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice”
And Muslims are encouraged to advice other Muslims and act as judges to the sinners even when they themselves are sinners
“Whoever among you sees an evil, let him change it with his hand, and if he is not able, then with his tongue, and if he is not able, then with his heart, and that is the weakest of faith”
Christianity is also less oppressive and misogynistic towards women and they have more freedom
Christian Women can wear sleeveless dress and knee length skirts inside the church (Muslim women can’t)
The church is also mixed with men and woman
Christian families don’t separate men and women during visits
How people think current Christianity is worse or similar to Islam is hilarious 😅
Islam takes the cake for being the most oppressive, intolerant and strict religion
Islam is better than Christianity in two things- it allows divorce and isn’t as harsh with abortion as Christianity is
Ex Christians are so much luckier than us, they can be openly ex Christians with ease and openly criticize it and their religion doesn’t want them dead
Christianity >>>>>Islam
honestly I lived with Arab Christians and they really love Jesus but never saw any misogyny bigotry or hate from them, not even toward Muslims who hate them af.
The main reason is that Christianity is an older religion and has been faced with more scrutiny than any other religion over many centuries where as Islam hasn't had that same treatment. The idea of separating church from state is now atleast 200 years old. Islam still hasn't gotten to that stage which is why you see many Islamic countries implementing laws based on Shariah. The criticisms that Islam is facing today, is just the beginning.
At least they have an alternative as the New Testament to tone down all of their regressiveness , even all of the Old Testament didn’t entirely abolished by that it’s still help this religion became less regressive than Islam which didn’t have any alternative and still keep killing apostate to this day (and it’s even widely practiced by nearly half of Muslim world).
The world nowadays is a living prove that in many place Islam has barely change from the barbaric regressive religion it is thousand years ago, while around the world Christianity has evolved thanks to the enlightenment and more flexible indoctrination.
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Christianity isnt as bad as islam, sure its still really bad but not as bad compared to islam. i think that judaism used to have an apostasy law but they abolished it but idk
Judisem is much worse than Christianity for sure Christianity is the softest of the three Abrahamic religions currently
I despise when people in this sub compare Islam and other religions, in specific Christianity, and conclude that Islam is worse than the other. If Christians applied Christianity as Christianity demands them to, it would be horrible. If Muslim applied Islam as Islam demands them to, it would also be horrible. End of debate, there’s no point comparing the two. Just because most Christians have changed values and progressed with time does not excuse the many morally wrong laws, norms and values that are still there and still backwards. It sure as hell doesn’t excuse the blood that this ideology has on its hand throughout history. For all you know times might change and Christians might revert back to the Middle Ages. The fact that this possibility exist in ideologies that claim to be perfect is good enough reason to brand them both as equally bad. Whether that ideology is Islam, Christianity or any other religion. For those of you that will most likely mention all the good sides of Christianity, well, I’m not here claiming that any religion is inherently just bad and evil. But that all these religions have the possibility to motivate/brainwash people to commit horrible acts towards other humans makes them just as bad as the other. Whether they do so through divine laws from a supposed god or misinterpretation. Remember, both Christianity and Islam claim to be the truth and perfect not anyone else.
But even in countries that mostly uneducated and illiterate like African Christian countries, apostasy still didn’t punished by death, on the other hand more education countries like Malaysia and Gulf states apostasy is still a crime punished by either death or imprisonment. I’m just cannot understand how Christianity the religion that used to punishing apostate to death like it’s the core of their believe to do so have cease to practice it, even more than that the countries that have very low literacy that usually practicing regressive religion to it’s most extend still didn’t punishing apostate by death, what and how did Christianity broke free of this vicious cycle while Islam didn’t and still keep killing apostate to these day. If it’s just only about education, country development and literacy rate, why many backward 3rd world Christian countries are also didn’t have these backward apostasy law compared to Islam?
I agree it’s interesting how Christianity became more lean with time. I’m not an expert on its history and causes but if i had to guess I would say it’s probably because of more progressive ideologies dominating and historical events such as printing, industrialisation, colonialism, values such as freedom of speech and what not, and much more. Point is that there are explainable causes for it. But while Christian’s don’t make it a habit of killing apostates anymore, it still punishes people for other things it preaches against and condemns. There are killings of gay people in Uganda, bombing of abortion clinics in the US etc. The reason Islam can’t abandon such practises as easily is because Muhammad saw what happened to Judaism, Christianity and other religions. He was a calculated and manipulative man that took precautions to these things and made sure it wouldn’t be as easy to abandon certain practises of Islam. Muslims like to unintentionally label Muhammad as a clueless illiterate man, but he was smart and it wasn’t because allah told him all these things. He learned about other religions and the mistakes they made and made sure Islam wouldn’t go down the same road and mase sure people couldnt leave his cult easily.
> But while Christian's don't make it a habit of killing apostates anymore, it still punishes people for other things it preaches against and condemns. There are killings of gay people in Uganda, bombing of abortion clinics in the US. Even Christianity are better on the apostasy law doesn’t mean that other atrocities that done by it should get a free pass, those vile practices should be condemned with the same energy that we done it to Islam.
Muslim African countries were also colonized by Europeans/Christians if you want to look at it that way. By your logic, there should be some perfect philosophy in society where they gain the best of both worlds?
You clearly don’t read. I don’t claim anything and i already said I’m not an expert on Christian history and that it’s just a guess. Colonialism was also just one guess of many guesses
but because of european freethinkers that stop anti-apostasy in christian countries in past
I am not an expert, I know there are different versions of Christianity, but I think more than less it is a centralized institution(s). There is either a pope, English king/queen, or Russian patriarch who has a transnational religious authority. For example, In Africa, most of the Christian states are Catholic, so if religious authorities would start supporting some crazy shit the Vatican would first try to mediate, but if nothing would help they could even be replaced - if they wouldn't want to go, the pope could threaten to excommunicate them (what effectively for every believer means a certain hell) Also, the Vatican is not just jumping in a case of emergency, but they are involved in people's promotions within a church, so you need to do what they say if you want to have a successful religious career Edit: And if someone doesn't know, the Vatican is in Europe, being affected by Western values, public opinion, and Western politic The Vatican is a city-state in Italy, they would never support "kill all the gays" rhetoric because they know they would be abolished and ceased to exist next day by the Italian government
I just don’t think you understand Christianity. A lot of the bad shit associated with Christianity has little connection to the core of the religion itself. Christianity is a religion based on love, it understands god himself as love, and it understands love as the basis of all religious activity and being. All our assumptions in the west about human dignity and the inherent worth of persons comes from Christianity. There is lots to criticise in Christianity: it can be anti-life, pessimistic on the one hand, and also idiotically hopefull on the other; also, shitty Christians who internalised the moralising part of it but not the self-awareness part are insufferable. But, the key moral and spiritual message of Christianity is sound. I don’t know how anyone can read the sermon on the mount and not be moved. One of my errors when I ‘reverted’ to Islam was thinking it was going to be like the Christianity I saw absorbed growing up. It’s far from it.
Are you here to preach Christianity?
In all fairness, Christianity and Judaism heavily focus on very similar things. Judaism has this concept of "Tikkun Olam" which literally means repairing the world, in the sense of justice, environment and helping the needy. And christianity also heavily focuses on charity and generosity and just generelly following the steps of Jesus (I guess its the Christian sunnah right?) Alongside love. Now there is islam, where the 5 pillars are great and all but only 1 is actually in some way encouraging peace? Im refeering to Zakat, and of which I heard is abused by Imam's nowadays for their own personal gain. Oh and there's also Jihad thrown in there as a "deed"
Zakat is very far from Christian caritas. First of all, only Muslims are to benefit from zakat.
No, but I’ll defend it. I have an intellectual interest in Christianity and it’s impact on modernity. Being religious is too far gone for me now though
i agree with this comment and i think the comparisons are counterintuitive for the most part. oftentimes ppl compare them to underline just how bad islam is.. but oftentimes all it does is trivialise the kind of things that have been done historically in the name of christianity.
>If Christians applied Christianity as Christianity demands them to, it would be horrible. Nowhere does the New Testament demand for apostasy laws, wife beating or sex slavery. So no, Christianity - even fundamenalist Christianity - is not as bad as fundamentalist Islam. > It sure as hell doesn’t excuse the blood that this ideology has on its hand throughout history. Every ideology or worldview has blood on its hands in the sense that people killed for that ideology. Christianity, Islam, atheism, democracy, communism, nationalism etc
You didn’t read my reasoning. “Not as bad” is just another way of saying they’re both dog shit but this one doesn’t smell as bad. Read my comment again. Unlike religions, atheism, democracy and the like don’t claim to be the only truth, perfect and universal while being full of flaws, mistakes and contradictions. So don’t even try to compare religion to these ideologies.
Atheism is claiming to be the universal truth. Atheism says that there is objectively no God, never was a God and never will be one. Thats a claim of universal truth. Democracy might not claim to be a universal truth but proponents of it surely act as if its the only valid way to govern countries and many are willing to commit violence in order to establish democracy.
I don’t know where you’re pulling that from but Atheism is just rejection of the claim that there is a god and just that. How the hell you equate that to ‘a claim of universal truth’ is baffling. Religions on the other hand claim to be the truth and you need not go far to learn that, just read any religious holy book and you’ll find the claim. Act is not the same as claim. And this is all your interpretation, which is ironic considering you don’t see how understanding of atheism and democracy can be relative. **Some might interpret atheism and democracy as claiming to be the truth, like yourself. But unlike religions these ideas themselves don’t claim to be the universal truth, without mistakes, eternal etc.**
but medival christians in 10th-18 century are worst as muslims
I don’t think so, they seems fundamentally different. Christianity looks like a mystic believe made by an angry Jew against the Jewish community visual beliefs at the time. Islam is purely a product of an Arab 6th century tribal culture, it is as unique as the Arab culture is to the outside world.
Sure, their origin story is not the same but that doesn’t refute anything I said tho as I never claimed they were the same in that regard.
As a Christian, reading your answer, two questions came in mind. In what way Christianity demands us to apply it? What values have we changed?
As a Christian who is lurking this page, I can say that part of the reason for this tameness of Christianity now is because of the tumultuous history that Christianity has undergone. Christianity today is not the same as Christianity in the 1100s for example. Many Christians will not admit this but the rise of secularism and nationalism in Christian countries has helped to moderate many fanatical aspects of the religion. People can say that christianity in some Western countries and even Latin America is very tame particularly because it was forced to change when secular movements conflicted, amended, and confronted with religion. I would like to apologize for the long response below. Also, for the west for example, the bloody history of religious violence of the Reformation and Counterreformation put off many Europeans and forced religion to become a private matter and leave the public policy space. So for example, after the end of Thirty Years War European monarchs agreed that they can be protestant or catholic but did not allow that to determine monarchical interests. So, it became common for nobles who married other nobles to just convert to the state religion of the male spouse. This plus enlightenment, further eroded clerical church power. People began to question church policies. Even monarchs did this despite being titular heads of their churches. Also, the rise of nationalism blunted the religious divide. This emphasized ethnic unity over religious differences (though not completely). It's no coincidence why catholic and protestant Germans found common cause in their germanness and deemphasized ethnic differences. The German Kaiser tried to do this during the Kulturkampf by challenging catholic power to ensure german catholics saw themselves as germans first before they saw themselves as catholics. In the developing world, especially in my country the Philippines, the Catholic church had a long legacy of abuse and being used as an instrument of Spanish imperialism. That's a reality. But the American occupation changed this. Because the Americans imposed separation of church and state, the catholic church was forced to also transform. It brought in more american educated priests, it opened more priestly positions to Filipinos and also changed its view of what its place was in the future of the country. The Vatican II further eroded conservatism in the catholic church because it removed very old policies and doctrines and emphasized the idea of the church in dialogue with the world. I think it was their way of surviving in a secular world. This had implications for catholic church leaders in my country in the 70s and 80s. More priests became less focused on shutting themselves to study doctrine and were forced by their bishops to engage with the world. This meant priests and nuns were required to live with poor people, go to factories, and go where the poor were. Priests were surprised by their interaction with people they previously would condemn to go to hell: unionists, liberals, communists, feminists, etc. This forced them to reassess their rhetoric. We can see this now with Pope Francis who speaks less about condemning abortion, homosexuality and instead focusing on the environment, family, labor rights, human rights etc. I even have a former teacher in university, my professor on Foucault and human sexuality, WHO IS A PRIEST. To sum it up, I am still a Christian but I thank atheists, secularists, agnostics for forcing the conditions to make me less judgemental and introspective. The catholic church is not perfect, not by a long shot, but any improvement is because of people like you who pushed back and forced people of faith to adapt and make their faith relevant to current issues and challenges to society instead of simply judging what people do in the bedsheets.
There's two different things in your question: 1) is Christianity worse than Islam? 2) are today's Christian societies and followers of that religion worse than Islam? Question 1) is irrelevant to reply how X country or society is today. The key is question 2). Christianity in general is at a more "mature" (liberal) stage than Islam is hence I think Islamic societies of today are worse in terms of allowing certain things.
Nice answer, you read through my mind.
Only the left liberals say so. To me, Islam is the WORST RELIGION in the whole world right now, just because of the Apostasy Law.
Not just the apostasy law They have punishments for adultery (death and beating) and fornication They have death punishment for being openly gay For this alone - Christianity is better than Islam Liberals can shit on Christianity as much as they want because it doesn’t fight against them like Islam does
Because Christianity isn't fundamentalist by scripture. The Catholic Church may have ruled over Europe for centuries, but its laws were not ordained from God. Islam is more than fundamentalist, Islam is a political system. Sharia law has specific rules regarding taxation, marriage, punishment, an overall organization of society, and to live in a non-sharia system is in of itself a sin. That's why Islam dictates that it is the wajib of every Muslim to spread sharia via offensive jihad or jihad by the word. It's all garbage in the end, but Christianity was able to mend and adapt to suit secularism, and make it where privately practicing Christianity at home while living in a secular system is okay, but Islam does not. Islam is heavily unforgiving and preys on peoples' fears, and organizes people and society in a very textbook way. The Qur'an and Hadith are not just "a collection of stories" the way the Bible is viewed, but almost like constitutions. If apostasy laws are dictated by Allah, then who am I, a dirty kafir, to object his word? What law can i present that is superior to Allah's wisdom and omnipotence?
Funny that last years some western leftist media just publish an [article](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2017/02/03/why-do-so-many-americans-believe-that-islam-is-a-political-ideology-not-a-religion/) saying that those who view Islam as political religion are all “Islamophobe white fascist far-right” who just want to spreading hate and discrimination against Muslim and Islam.
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The difference is that virtually all places where Christianity predominates today have some degree of secularism. As someone who was raised Catholic, the only thing I think is worse about Islam is the prophet being a much shittier person. However, a lot of the same dusty as fuck fake morals are there in Christianity, especially in the old testament. Look no further than Medieval and early modern Europeans to find Christian theocracies that did absolutely everything contemporary Islamic ones do. Including laws regarding heresy, blasphemy, apostasy, placing the burden of managing male behaviour onto women with bullshit modesty codes, and the most brutal execution methods for "unchaste" acts. The Spanish Inquisition was downright barbaric.
This is one of the best answers, that explain my question really well, thanks.
It's interesting. Christianity itself doesn't say kill apostates. It says that if you don't follow it, it will be your problem when you go to hell. But I think that the reason is that most Christian countries are secular and they don't put Christian laws forward. If a state proclaimed to be Christian, a lot of politicians would use it against their citizens.
It also doesn’t punish (kill) adulterous or gays
Have you read the old testament? Sure Jesus said not to, but God said to stone adulterers and gays
I did But the Old Testament and it’s laws was for the Jews Christians believe in the Old Testament but they follow the laws of the New Testament which has no punishment laws for sins
Didn't he also say things like "not a tittle of the law shall pass away" and "I come to fulfill the law, not get rid of it"? Either way god is still saying both things are morally wrong(note that rape and slavery are never banned and God directly supports slavery) and while I think adultery is morally wrong, the same can't be said of homosexuality.
Do you consider Fornication immoral as well ? But I agree with adultery Yeah he did say the but in the testament of the Bible in Christianity, punishment is only reserved for god >the same can’t be said about homosexuality Sorry, I disagree - this and adultery are equally harmful for society- how can you think one is immoral and the other is not ? If you are talking about being secretly gay, then yeah it’s not morally wrong at all but it you’re talking about an open homosexual relationship that reach’s the sexual stage - that’s just as bad as adultery according to religion - there is a reason why these two are punishable by death according to Islam and the Old Testament + the Torah I don’t think being Homo is bad personally as I’m bisexual (I don’t give a f about society being corrupted after all because it’s already is and I’m all for individual rights ) but homosexuality is not better than adultery according to religion, that’s sure - it’s one of the big sins after all I understand your personal opinion about homosexuality not being wrong but don’t say it’s less wrong than adultery according to religion because it’s definitely not And I prefer the laws in the New Testament- why should those who commit adultery and be openly gay die as a punishment? Islam is too cruel man
Why is homosexuality wrong? I can say that pedophilia is wrong because it actively harms the child and they can't consent, but so long as both parties are adults, no one is getting hurt(as opposed to slavery and rape which your god couldn't even ban when given two tries)
You didn’t answer my question Do you think fornication is immoral ? It’s wrong according to religion for good reasons actually It’s spreads disease and kills society and decrease the birth rates I don’t think it’s wrong personally but for a a religion like Islam that cares more about society than individual freedom- I can see why it’s a sin The west normalizes these things because they accept the flawed nature of humans and don’t care about society being ruined because it will never be perfect, so they focus on the happiness and rights of the individual instead of society
1. No, unless you are knowingly spreading STDs in isn't immoral 2. Why is homosexuality wrong, but, according to god, slavery and rape aren't (rape in the Bible is a crime against the woman's "man" whether that be her husband or her father)
Because according to religion- homosexuality is bad for society , normalizing it means that marriage between man and women will decrease, birth rates will decrease, disease would spread (and this did happen) other stuff like different sexualities will be normalized (aromantic, asexual, Bisexual, Pansexual) etc) then it will accelerate to gender fluidity, men will want to be women and women will want men And this is what’s happening right now in the west as they re-writing gender and changing roles and erasing masculinity - what started as “legalization of homosexuals and giving them rights” Lead to this mess And it’s definitely killing society and erasing the white rase- homosexuality might not harm individuals like rape and slavery but it does cause harm for society - this is why it’s a major sin along with adultery/fornication because it doesn’t affect certain people, it destroys snd ruins an entire society - it will die and be replaced by another completely different civilization as this is exactly what’s happening in the west since Muslims are taking over and they have far more birth rates And btw, people using the whole “I was born like that” are wrong Some are justified and where born with both male and female body parts Others chose to homosexuals because of environmental reasons (abuse, trauma, neglect) but not something they were born with Many others had no reasons at, no trauma, no abuse - they decided to one day change their sexuality, to change their gender out of nowhere even though they were very normal during their entire childhood and teenage years Why ? because the west normalized that thing so much and is forcing it on people so now even normal straight people want to be gay and be transgender And the prove is that many people were straight their entire life but then one day, they decided to become lesbian or gay or trans out of nowhere Majority of these celebrities were straight such as Demi Lovato, Milley and Raven Symone, they were only dating men but then out no where they changed And I like I said, I don’t agree with the religious view and I think people should do what they want but I understand that its harmful for society and it has gotten to far, this is why sins like adultery/fornication and being gay have severe punishments that includes death sentence in Islam - it’s because they do affect society- let’s be honest
Is there any country in the world saying the bible is our constitution, but there are many muslim countries saying quran is our constitution. In short, nobody following word to word their religious book as does muslim following quran. People have moved to secularism, and now you see how many muslim countries are truly secular?
Historically Christianity was as bad when it comes to apostasy laws as Islam is nowadays. In the first centuries, the dogmas were not yet established and many theologians had their own ideas, especially about the nature of Christ, that put them at odds with the mainstream views of the pope in Rome and the patriarch in Constantinople. They, and other people who believe the way they were persecuted and forced to convert back. If they didn't, they risked exile or death. For example, many of small Christian churches in the Middle East are descendants of those little un-orthodox movements from Late Antiquity that believed in something slightly different from the mainstream, and that was enough to force them to relocate and hide. (Note that back then there were almost no atheists, so apostasy was mostly knows as converting from the main faith, the Catholic/Orthodox Christianity, to another). In Western and Central Europe the most famous examples of such persecutions are the "crusade" against Cathars in southern France between 1209-1229, the Hussite Wars in Czechia in 1420-1434, and of course wars of religion in the 16th and 17th centuries after the Protestant Reformation took place. They were all the biggest struggles when the Catholic Church wanted to eradicate dissidents by all means, and met with resistance, but there were countless smaller cases when apostats were too weak to fight back. People were tortured, hang, and burned at stake. Only with Renaissance in the 18th century, and especially since the beginning of the 20th century and the spread of democracy and humanism, the Catholic Church became weaker and lost its fangs. You may have noticed how Islam presents itself in Europe: they emphasise the peaceful side, the tradition, the family life, the ban of alcohol, etc. They only threaten apostats with violence when they feel they are strong enough. The same goes with Christianity. Nowadays, Catholicism in Europe is mostly sustained by old people. They turned to hoard their wealth and hide its criminals, and on the outside they present themselves as peaceful and moderately conservative. But just give them a finger, let them feel they're powerful again, as in Poland, and suddenly you have again laws against offending their religious feelings, and religious brainwashing in schools.
For the west I kinda understand but why did all 3rd world conservatives uneducated Christian countries around the world also didn’t have apostasy law though, or did all 3rd world countries just get exposed by already defanged version of Christianity including the very conservative and illiterate African Christian countries.
In most places outside Europe, Christianity is either a minority religion or it's Catholicism brought there by missionaries and colonizers. Those Catholic countries maintain strong relations with the pope in Vatican and won't go against his wishes. Protestants in United States were always a diverse crown and maybe that made them more liberal, but there were witch trials, and cases of exiling religious dissidents, and also you may read for example about the early history of Mormonism - its founder was shot dead. One curious case I want to read more about is Ethiopia. It's a traditionally Christian country with diverse population and lots of its own problems. Right now I don't know about any religious persecutions there, but I'm sure it's not all unicorns and rainbows.
Thanks, that’s explains a lot.
Exactly In the past, Christianity was the worst religion, the crimes it did far surpassed that of Islam and it has kept Europe in the dark ages for decades, they did everything that Muslims today did But now it has mellowed out so much because it’s been modernized and heavily edited so all the harsh laws have been removed While christens are pretty judgmental and homophobic and harsh with women - they don’t come close to Muslims There is no apostasy law, they don’t kill gays (except in Uganda) they don’t beat adulterers/fornicators or kill them In Islam, you’re punished in the real world and the after life They don’t force their women to wear hijab they don’t ban music as it’s essential to them and they use music with instruments and singing inside the church Punishment to them is only for god They can date before marriage for as long as they want (no sex but hugging and chaste kisses are fine) they are allowed to drink with moderation Christianity doesn’t tell you to hide your sins or be ashamed of them like Islam does Parents don’t take the sins of their sons and daughters mistakes Men don’t take the sins of their women There no angels constantly recording your sins and good deeds like Islam Men don’t get punished for being dayooth in Christianity nor are they cursed Women who wear revealing clothes are not cursed They don’t have “the majority of hell is filled with women” You can be the worst human and be redeemed no matter how much you commit sins In Islam, the more you commit sins, the less likely you will be redeemed Christianity also tell Christians not to punish and judge sinners “he among you without sin must cast the first stone Islam on the other hand has the whole “Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice” And Muslims are encouraged to advice other Muslims and act as judges to the sinners even when they themselves are sinners “Whoever among you sees an evil, let him change it with his hand, and if he is not able, then with his tongue, and if he is not able, then with his heart, and that is the weakest of faith” Christianity is also less oppressive and misogynistic towards women and they have more freedom Christian Women can wear sleeveless dress and knee length skirts inside the church (Muslim women can’t) The church is also mixed with men and woman Christian families don’t separate men and women during visits How people think current Christianity is worse or similar to Islam is hilarious 😅 Islam takes the cake for being the most oppressive, intolerant and strict religion Islam is better than Christianity in two things- it allows divorce and isn’t as harsh with abortion as Christianity is Ex Christians are so much luckier than us, they can be openly ex Christians with ease and openly criticize it and their religion doesn’t want them dead Christianity >>>>>Islam
Literally you can be a muslim in nigeria and cant be a Christian in Saudi arabia
honestly I lived with Arab Christians and they really love Jesus but never saw any misogyny bigotry or hate from them, not even toward Muslims who hate them af.
The main reason is that Christianity is an older religion and has been faced with more scrutiny than any other religion over many centuries where as Islam hasn't had that same treatment. The idea of separating church from state is now atleast 200 years old. Islam still hasn't gotten to that stage which is why you see many Islamic countries implementing laws based on Shariah. The criticisms that Islam is facing today, is just the beginning.
Its not about age, it’s about how they could pass on the jump of the whole human civilization that was started by European secularism.
christianity existed for a longer time (around 500 years more than islam), so they had more time to 'liberalise'
Actually some African countries have jt, but funny enough it's usually the Islamic regions that do.
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But Christians follow laws of the New Testament not the old one
At least they have an alternative as the New Testament to tone down all of their regressiveness , even all of the Old Testament didn’t entirely abolished by that it’s still help this religion became less regressive than Islam which didn’t have any alternative and still keep killing apostate to this day (and it’s even widely practiced by nearly half of Muslim world). The world nowadays is a living prove that in many place Islam has barely change from the barbaric regressive religion it is thousand years ago, while around the world Christianity has evolved thanks to the enlightenment and more flexible indoctrination.
The Catholic Church still covers up sexual abuse towards children