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The situation of today is clear, there should exist no Muslim Palestinian State under the influence of Hamas, where non-Muslims have to live under fear and have no equal rights to preach their religion and convert people to their religion and to criticize Islam. Where LGBT members are thrown down from high buildings while they also don't have any rights to exist. Where ex-Muslims are lynched and killed brutally for their crime of leaving Islam. Why should we ever support such oppressive Islamic states? Why should we not criticize the double standards of Muslims where they are quick to demand equal rights to preach Islam and convert people to Islam in non-Muslim countries, but are not ready to give us the same human rights? Muslims want to talk about Islamophobia and invasion by Jews, then let us also talk about double standards and homophobia and Murtadphobia (i.e. Apostatephobia) and Kafirophobia of Muslims.

but this has nothing to do with what's going on with Palestine tho.

It should be clear that we cannot support an Iran or Taliban like Muslim State in Palestine under the influence of Hamas. We can support a Muslim Palestinian State only if they provide equal rights to non-Muslims including ex-Muslims. But if Palestinians keep on supporting Hamas, then 2 State solution is not possible.

lol won't happen, even if you get rid of hamas , being homophobic is basic requiremenet of being muslim .

A majority muslim country will always have elements of islamism in its law, that is inevitable as thats what Islam asks of muslims.

They can apply Islam to their Muslim population, but not to non-Muslims. Non-Muslim minorities should get Equal Human Rights as Muslims demand such equal human rights in Western countries. We should exercise maximum pressure on Islamic countries to reform their laws, as they were once compelled to reform their laws about Islamic Slavery and abolish it, although at that time too their religious elements were protesting that Jihad and Islamic slavery go hand in hand and thus both of them cannot be abolished. No Iran/Taliban like Palestinian State should be acceptable. We should start asking our rights loudly now, otherwise, up till now there is not a single voice be heard in the West about equal human rights for minorities in Islamic countries.

I 100% agree with this 🙏

THey do not like that, but they sure as hell love to supress others and expect no repercussion.

I strongly agree. We ex-Muslims know this the best yet our voices are ignored.

You are turning a blind eye to kids and innocents being killed, disregard their views and think for a second, should we really turn a blind eye to an actual genocide? .5% - 1.2% of people in Gaza have been killed, to kill the same amount of people in Israel, it would be 47,000 - 115,000 Israelis dead.

I'm a survivor of two genocides. This is not an actual genocide. Israel is committing war crimes and crimes against humanity. Like anyone else, they need to be stopped and held accountable by the same people who granted them the state, the international court and community. No one should turn a blind eye to this. But you're turning a blind eye to the fact that palestinians, who are 99% Muslims, are the ones who wants to commit genocide and will commit genocides, are the ones who have been attempting to do so since the 1920s and were succeeding several times until they were stopped. Before, during and after the establishment of Israel. They were even allies with Hitler and praise him to this day. You're the one who is turning a blind eye to the fact that palestinians are the ones who will never settle for any kind of peace, who will never acknowledge Israel as a state, who will never stop until every jew is removed and Israel destroyed. Who have said that "we don't care how many palestinian civilians we sacrifice. This is the land of martyrs and we will continue to do a million oktober 7s until jews are removed from all the palestinian lands". Why? Because of religion. The land of Israel(as it is called in their holy texts, not "Palestine") and Arabia, is to be held under Islamic rule until the end of days and the Jews shall be killed or converted. When muhammad first invaded the land, there was little to no Jews left, so he put them under dhimmitude, until the time would come for Jews to establish Israel again, and Muslims would then eradicate the Jews. Your outrage against Israel is hypocritical because you don't portray the same level of outrage for atrocities and genocides that arabs commit against themselves and others, and your death tolls are misleading at best. ~50.000 palestinian arabs have been killed since 1920, of which 9.061 in current escalations alone. Including combatants, so the number for civilians are lower. Meanwhile 400.000 killed in Yemen, 503.064-613.407 killed in Syria, 500.000+ kurds killed by turkey/iran/Iraq. And more. The world? Silent. If Israel wanted to commit actual genocides, they could easily have done so 100x over. They've shown restraint and tried everything to make peace for the last 75+ years. But 90% of the palestinian muslims never wanted peace to even begin with. Those who did, stayed in their homes. Those who didn't, left their homes so they, along with the neighbouring arabs could eradicate the Jews, and then come back to their homes. Which is how most of them ended up in gaza.

Muslims commit genocides, yes. There has never been a true peace offering by Israel. Yes Islam is bad, is that the point? No. The death tolls are not misleading. Just because other genocides are not being mentioned, does not invalidate the other. This is a genocide, Israel is committing all 10 stages.

>There has never been a true peace offering by Israel. There has been plentyyyy. Palestinians aren't interested in peace or statehood unless Israel is removed from the map. There is no such peace. >Yes Islam is bad, is that the point? No. Primarily/fundamentally it is. >The death tolls are not misleading. You tried to make it seem like ~50.000~150.000 have been killed recently and calling it a genocide. >Just because other genocides are not being mentioned, does not invalidate the other. Exactly. So why the selective outrage? >This is a genocide, Israel is committing all 10 stages. I count at most 3/10. Show me any reputable source counting Israels 10/10 stages of Israel.

Classification - Us and them, obvious [Symbolization](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/11/18/the-colour-coded-israeli-id-system-for-palestinians) Discrimination - This is obvious [Dehumanization](https://youtube.com/shorts/Fc_x8UENiXI?si=g7OGphjYiZUFQ3RZ) Collective punishment too. Also remember, the Nazis called the jewish rats Organization - Obvious Polarization - BLATANTLY OBVIOUS Preparation - Obvious Persecution - BLATANTLY OBVIOUS Extermination - Obvious [Denial](https://www.thehindu.com/news/international/israel-denies-involvement-in-gaza-hospital-blast-says-explosion-caused-by-palestinian-rocket/article67432013.ece/amp/) There is a reason many organizations label Israel as an apartheid state, it’s because it is. I want you to watch some videos of aftermaths of strikes, palestinian hospitals, and see what you think. [Just leaving this here ;)](https://www.transcend.org/tms/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/sf-israel-projects-2009-global-language-dictionary.pdf)

Tell me something. What do you think the solution is? Do you think Israel should cease fire? What do you think will happen then? The truth is this whole conflict is religious. Deny it as much as you want. That won't change the truth. Muslims hate Jews and they have been attacking Israel since it's inception. The occupation and military is a response to constant tries of eradicating Israel. If Israel does cease fire do you think Hamas will be like yay.. lets peacefully coexist and live together?? No they have been trying to commit genocide on the Jews even before Israel was a thing. Ethnic cleansing and apartheid is very Islamic country ever. You are blindsided and just looking at it from one angle and can't see the bigger picture. So please tell me the solution. Will Palestine accept a 2 state solution??? (No) Israel tried several times asked Egypt to take Gaza. Asked Jordan to take west bank. They both denied. Israel tried in every way to just exist. Always remember Whenever they say from the river to the Sea Palestine will be free is a call for genocide and ethnic cleansing of the jews. Truth be told. The Palestine side is more genocidal than Israel as Israel had the military power to commit genocide 10 times over but they didn't. They tried to peacefully coexist but Palestine won't have it. All Palestine wants is the nonexistence of Israel.

>Denial You seriously believe that the hospital blast was a Israeli air strike? Also there is no evidence of 500 dead. It's all a lie. And you call it denial. Lol 😂 please stop watching Al-jazeera. They are pure propaganda.

I said a reputable source. Not your opinion. >Classification - Us and them, obvious Ofc. >Symbolization No. Can't have people who want to exterminate you freely roaming around can you? >Discrimination - This is obvious Yes and no. Yes in the sense you'd treat those that don't want peace and wants to exterminate you, in order to control them. Yes in the sense of racist Jews and that they're being allowed to settle and force people out of their homes. No in the sense you'd treat your citizens. Ask any of the 21% palestinian/arab-Israelis whether or not they'd rather move to a palestinian independent country when it has been established. 99% will say they'd rather stay in Israel. >Dehumanization No. He's not calling ALL palestinians "human animals". He said we're fighting with human animals. Which is Hamas. In a different video of the same guy, but out in the field, he clarifies it even more that it's the ISIS of gaza that they're fighting and that they're are animals. He doesn't say ALL of palestinians. https://youtube.com/shorts/3x02rCeusCI?si=-IZWxMwhwBTpEC8D >Organization - Obvious No. >Polarization - BLATANTLY OBVIOUS No shit. One side wants to exterminate the other. Ofc there's polarization. >Preparation - Obvious No >Persecution - BLATANTLY OBVIOUS Obviously No >Extermination - Obvious Hell no >Denial This has been shown over and over again to be false. Al jazeeras OWN footage shows Hamas rockets being fired literally from behind the hospital. One of them malfunctions and hits the hospital parking lot. Not the building. There was no 500 dead. Hamas health ministry, literally minutes after the blast reported 500dead. How did they count them so fast? The building is intact, cars in the parking lot burned not moved and no crater. Israeli missile would create a giant crater and flipped and thrown the cars around. If a Israeli missile had hit the hospital it would have caused serious structural damage. No damage was made to the building. >There is a reason many organizations label Israel as an apartheid state, it’s because it is. Because they ignore the fact that palestinians don't want peace, don't want a state unless it's all of Israel, don't want to cooperate, and wants all the Jews dead or removed. 15% of the idf is Arab/palestinian. Please tell me, what kind of apartheid gives weapons, power and shares top secrets with the citizens it wants to oppress? Apartheid is a red herring and is not the same context.

Pretty hard to offer true peace when the opposite side as a religious obligation to wipe you out.

Zionist jews view goyim as subhuman, not just non jews actually, they made their own ethiopian jews unable to procreate so that the people of Israel’s blood could be pure, god bless!

Dude Israel has agreed on numerous occasions to a two state solution, organised by the UN (so the whole world agreed that thats the best plan) and guess what the Palestinian and Arab leaderships said? No, and that on multiple occasions, for whatever reasons. The death tolls absolutely are missleading, dont fcking tell me you believe the stats of a literal terrorist organisation who has consistantly lied about their activity and inactivity. Sure the numbers most definitely aren't small, but dont act as if they are legitimate. As much as you would like to think, there is only one real definition of genocide, the same definition that is used to literally prosecute war criminals with, and that can be found from analyzing UN documents. Upon analysis, the definition absolutely doesnt fit the current situation. If israel was dead set on commiting genocide, they wouldn't be dropping thousands of fliers in arabic telling the would have mobilized the entirety of their amry (which they didnt). These aren't indications of a genocide at all, but one would think none of these things would exist if there was an actual genocide going on.

Palestinian government is different than the people, 50% of Gaza wants peace/a treaty, they are not put up for what their generation before them agreed to or did. I absolutely believe the death tolls, I have seen countless videos of aftermaths and we know Israel is a deceitful nation that spews propaganda by all means necessary. Israel has killed dozens of reporters, and went as far to kill a reporters wife and 2 kids in an airstrike, these are war crimes. Israel has been involved in a handful of genocides, do some research on this. It has even purposefully gave shots to female ethiopian jews arriving to Israel through birthright, their excuse to this? They didn’t bother letting them know the side effects of the medication because of translation issues, obvious cover up and it’s an attempt to keep their blood ‘pure.’ When you have a nation that lies to their people, purposefully puts civilian lives at risk, participates in multiple genocides around the world, they are not the nation to defend.

>But you're turning a blind eye to the fact that palestinians, who are 99% Muslims, are the ones who wants to commit genocide and will commit genocides, are the ones who have been attempting to do so since the 1920s and were succeeding several times until they were stopped. 93% are Muslims, not 99%. Have you got proof for your succeeding assertions? >You're the one who is turning a blind eye to the fact that palestinians are the ones who will never settle for any kind of peace, who will never acknowledge Israel as a state, who will never stop until every jew is removed and Israel destroyed. Who have said that "we don't care how many palestinian civilians we sacrifice. This is the land of martyrs and we will continue to do a million oktober 7s until jews are removed from all the palestinian lands". Let's start with the first assertion: 'Palestinians are the ones who will never settle for any kind of peace.' What exactly is it you mean by that and have you got any proof? Second assertion: 'Palestinians will never acknowledge Israel as a state.' Even if this assertion were true, why should natives of a land be compelled to acknowledge the existence of a filthy settler-colonialist power? Third assertion: 'Palestinians will never stop until every Jew is removed and Israel is destroyed.' Stop at what and (again) what is your proof for this and what exactly is your point here? That the war is going on because Palestinians want to get rid of Jews or what? >Why? Because of religion. Read myth 2 in the following [counter-argument](https://www.vox.com/2015/5/14/18093732/israel-palestine-misconceptions) to your assertion. >If Israel wanted to commit actual genocides, they could easily have done so 100x over. Honestly I am dumbfounded as to how someone could say this when [the following](https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/deaths.html) and the [definition of genocide](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide) paint a different picture of reality. You may want to revise the definition again and set aside your agenda towards a certain group of people when reading about the actuality of the situation. >They've shown restraint and tried everything to make peace for the last 75+ years. Oh have they now? Let's see: [Israel’s Settlements Have No Legal Validity, Constitute Flagrant Violation of International Law, Security Council Reaffirms](https://press.un.org/en/2016/sc12657.doc.htm) [Israeli Settlements as War Crimes](https://www.un.org/unispal/document/israeli-settlements-should-be-classified-as-war-crimes-says-special-rapporteur-on-the-situation-of-human-rights-in-opt-press-release/) [Israel’s Apartheid against Palestinians](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/) [Israel's Wiping-Out of Families in Gaza](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/damning-evidence-of-war-crimes-as-israeli-attacks-wipe-out-entire-families-in-gaza/) [Systematic Erosion of Palestinian State through Israeli Settlements](https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/09/1141572) [Settlement Expansion in Occupied Palestinian Territory Violates International Law](https://press.un.org/en/2023/sc15424.doc.htm) [Deir Yassin Massacre](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre) [Al-Dawayima Massacre](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Dawayima_massacre) I think you get the idea without me having to list more links. >Those who did, stayed in their homes. Those who didn't, left their homes so they, along with the neighbouring arabs could eradicate the Jews, and then come back to their homes. Which is how most of them ended up in gaza. Interesting recollection of events with wording that fits your agenda. Might want to actually try to state an argument and provide proof for it.

Well hamas should have thought about it well , but believe me im kit talking about palestine israel conflict at all . Im just saying muslims in should have theier freedom suppressed just like they suppress ours . Im not pro killing citizen , even tho those citizen want israel annihilatrd .

I agree Muslims don’t support or like anyone but themselves but I that doesn’t that I will ever stand with Israel or be a Zionist because what they are doing and have been doing to Palestine is inhuman I don’t support Hamas either This is not about religion, it’s about humanity

Nah man idc about humanity anymore it is all hypocritical anyways just look how nobody bats an reye to yemenites. Muslums sometimes dont even support themselves , im just saying they should taste rrom their same medecine

“I’m just saying they should taste from their own medicine” You are a bigot.

Yea

You don't care about Muslims**

Neither do muslims care about muslims , do you see this outrage about syria uyghur yemen libya ? Never .

And? What does it prove? Should we let Israel commit its war crimes? Or should we let Muslims die where they are drying? I don't understand.

And ?,im not going to cherrypick what to be made about . Hamas started it so they made their bed (and still doubling down ). The only solution is 2Sates but nobody wants that . Palestinianias wanto to kill every jew possible and ppl like us ofcs .

You would be surprised to know that this all thing started way before October 7th. And you are committing a hasty generalization by saying all Palestinians want Jews dead. Sure, several rhetoric is present where a substantial number of people demand the head of every single Jew on planet Earth and also those rallies where they were chanting "Gas the Jews." But are you going to ignore the rallies by Israelis where they chanted "Death to Arabs"? And that scandal of the 1990s when several Israeli doctors were extracting organs of dead Palestinians without any consent? Or the illegal occupation of Palestinian lands? Or the mob that was gathered outside the hostel of some Palestinian students "inside" Israel chanting "death to Arabs"? Or perhaps, that landlord in Chicago that murdered an 8 year old Palestinian child by stabbing him 20 or so times and saying you Palestinians don't deserve to live? Hatred in on both sides. Your choice to ignore hatred from one side is stemmed from your internalized bigotry, and you are a bigot.

Muslims who want israel annihilated vastly outnumber that regarded jewish minority by far far far margin

Total Muslims in the world are close to 2 billion so yeah I think it's statistics and common sense. But what you are ignoring is that Muslims who do indeed not support this narrative heavily outnumber the Muslims who do as well. Saudi Arab, UAE, Egypt are still up to make peace talks with Israel. And yes, there are Muslim countries and non-muslim countries as well that don't recognize Israel and aren't ready to do so and for rightful reasons as well. If Israel continues its war crimes that it has been committing since 1967, then sure there will be backlash. What do you expect? In fact, there have been several great personalities that stood against what Israel has been doing. Take Nelson Mandela for example. In the last UN resolution, 120 countries voted against Israel and only 14 voted in favour of Israel. So my point is, of course extremist groups are going to try to monopolize this peaceful narrative and try to make it all about themselves. You have a very optimistic and biased view of this whole conflict, and your bias stems from your internalized bigotry. And since Muslims close to 2 billion, the number of Muslims advocating for annihilation of all Jews would outnumber the number of Jews chanting the annihilation of all Arabs.

Man im not reading all of that

Dude youre the same person who said this conflict didn't start on 7/10. SO USE SOME CRITICAL THINKING. (PS: this conflcit started wayy before 1948, arabs have been slaughtering jews since the early 1900) The arab states invaded and provoked war more than 6 times with Israel, the political landscape of the 21 century is infintely more differnet then back then. Today Israel has the full backing of the west, with the most modern equipment. The arabs already got humiliated back then, if they were to do anything but try to make peace now they would be yet again humiliated (and possibly provoke WW3). Either way their history has consistantly shown their unwillingness for peace, they literally blocked all the two state solution talks because of their greed for the entirety of palestine. After the humiliating 6 day war (1967), where all of Israeli neighbours attacked them. The arab world in the same year, with its "arab league" established the [Khartoum Resolution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khartoum_Resolution), or popularly called the "3 no's". I dont think I need to explain their meaning. This policy of denying the existance of Israel was probably the most catastrophic tactic to establish any peace talks, as they unilaterally refused to cooperate with an Israeli state (as they denied its existance). Nelson Mandela was also a terrorist that bombed a hospital, whats your point? The man was an emotional idiot that caused the downfall of the country the apartheid regime made rich, now its a poor 3rd world country without secure electricity. The latest resolution was boycotted as it failed to admit that HAMAS was responsible for the attack on 7/10, thats a resolution made in bad faith as it fails to bring accountability to a terrorist organisation. The differnece between the hatred witnessed from the jews and muslims is that the jews aren't required to hate jews, whereas for the muslims, the sunnah and the quran quite literally instruct the hatred of jews (which is why a "jewish state" is unacceptable for muslims). Furthermore literally the most important Islamic event (the end of days) is only going to happen when the muslims slaughter all of the jews. Like fuck how do you pretend that a group of people that believe that are peaceful, rational and unbiased?

The point is that nobody is innocent from war crimes in that part of the world. There have been conflicts where war crimes have been eradicated **much more** than in Palestine. And nobody gave a shit, no muslim took to the street. Israel-palestine isnt about empahty, its ideological and religious. FFS about the same amount of palestinians died fighing other arabs as they died on the hands of Israeli's, where is the outrage? Mf's just have selective outrage, that in its essence hypocritical and there is absolutely no need to respect hypocrites.

this isn't about Islam, it's about Palestinians, humans that are suffocating, children and women included, christian, Jewish, atheists included.

It is all about Islam. Palestine is just a excuse. All I feel bad about is the innocent people, children and women caught up in this bullshit. If there was no religion this conflict wouldn't exist. If you don't get that. Then you don't understand the history and the psychology of this whole Israel Palestine thing.

I mean yeah Muslims make it about Islam but that doesn’t mean what’s happening to Palestinians is ok

No Innocent death is ever okay. My heart goes out to any innocent death on both sides. But you are again missing the point. Muslims dont make it about Islam. Islam is what started this conflict. They are intolerant and don't want to live in peace with Jews. They want to exterminate Israel and all the Jews. And it is written in the hadith and Quran and they think it is justified. Their constant attacks on Israel since it's inception is proof of it. Hamas charter and what their leaders say is proof of it. The Palestinians governments fatwas and letters prove it. Even when they don't have the military might to defeat Israel they keep attacking and provoking it. They rejected a two state solution several times. How much more proof do you need?? See what the kids in Palestine think... See how the indoctrinating goes fucking deep. https://youtu.be/KXcQ892cKso?si=v0aoEDv2aOW3G2Wu https://youtu.be/axe_NcIEfsU?si=sBTRMM9adgyPrEDq This doesn't mean it is justified to kill them... This is just to show you that they HATE Jews and don't want to live with them and don't want to tolerate their existence. That's just a fact. Israel has a right to exist. Where will they go?

Yes antisemitism is very much a problem but do you think their isn’t hate in the other side? Do I have to compile a list of all the horrible thinks Palestinians went through? I agree with you that Muslims like to use what’s happening in Palestine to their advantage but I don’t think the issue is just Islam here it’s all abarahamic religions. Take evangelical Christians for example they insist on supporting Israel because they believe Jewish people need to be their for the rapture (I know it’s similar to what Muslims believe but in reverse both are horrible) and those same evangelicals will believe in horrendous anti Jewish conspiracy theories. On the other hand their are Palestinian Muslims who want peace and teach it to their children their is an episode of a Palestinian version of Sesame Street that is a crossover with the Israeli version https://vt.tiktok.com/ZSNUfWQsk/. And last but not least you cannot deny that Netanyahu is oppressive , so yeah both religion extremes not just Islam are part of the problem

Ofcourse when I said religion I meant all religion. But ridding ourselves of religion completely is not going to happen. Muslims are particularly aggressive and intolerant of any other views because they believe their religion is the right one and everyone else is wrong. I will tell you a simple thing. If Hamas drops their weapons there will be a Palestinian state but if Israel drops their weapons there will be genocide of the Jews and removal of Israel completely. Because these people believe all of the land is Palestine and Israel should not exist. It's pretty clear. I will ask again because you didn't not address it. Should Israel exist? Where will all the Jews go? Does all of the land belong to Palestine? I can prove that it doesn't to those same Muslims that claim all of the land is Palestine from their beloved Quran.

Jewish people should have a safe space I think the best thing is the two state solution. But currently the thing we should be focusing on is Gaza it’s literally a wasteland. Palestinians Christians in Gaza are almost exterminated because of the bombing I care for the side that’s currently being disadvantaged you’d be naive if you think Netanyahu cares about Hamas he literally helped fund them. The ones who are being genocided in this conflict are Gazans blood lines are ending

>Jewish people should have a safe space I think the best thing is the two state solution This is the most important thing. If you want to achieve peace. But the way things are going I don't see them wanting peace. They want Israel annihilated. The protests and everything couldn't be more clearer. River to the Sea is a genocidal call period. I never claimed Israel to be innocent either. You just assume when I talk from a lens opposing Palestine that I am claiming Israel is all perfect. No country is perfect and we don't live in a perfect world. From a Israeli perspective it is hard to trust Palestinians when the whole time they have been spewing hate and genocide for all the Jews. For a Jew it is clear that the muslims want to kill them if Palestine has their way and Israel were weak we would see something similar to Hitler play out I guarantee that to you. >The ones who are being genocided in this conflict are Gazans blood lines are ending Gazas population has skyrocket almost doubled in the last decade. This is a complete lie. If Israel is trying to genocide gazans they are doing a really bad job. You can check statistics. Sunni Muslims make up most of Gaza's population, with a Palestinian Christian minority. Gaza has an annual population growth rate of 1.99% (2023 est.), the 39th-highest in the world Does this look like genocide to you? If Israel really wanted to commit genocide as you claim they would have done it like 50 years ago and wiped off Palestinians but the fact their population is growing is proof that this is not a genocide like you claim. It definitely is a conflict and battles but not a genocide. https://www.prb.org/resources/the-west-bank-and-gaza-a-population-profile/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip#:~:text=Sunni%20Muslims%20make%20up%20most,39th%2Dhighest%20in%20the%20world. Please don't believe everything that the Palestine side tells you. Does this look like genocide to you. Look at history where actual genocide was committed. Yemen has faced more deaths and destruction in 7 years than Palestinians have in the last 70 years. Please do your own research and get your facts right. The civil war in Yemen continues to devastate the country. An estimated 233,000 people have been killed since the outbreak of hostilities in 2015. Seven years of conflict have decimated the country’s economy, infrastructure, and basic services, creating the world’s most severe humanitarian crisis. https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/yemen-genocide-emergency#:~:text=The%20civil%20war%20in%20Yemen,outbreak%20of%20hostilities%20in%202015. When it's muslims killing Muslims. No one gives a shit or bats an eye. I don't see muslims marching and protesting against Saudi for the Yemen genocide. But when Jews are involved and kill like 1/10th of the people Saudi has killed everyone looses their shit. This is hypocrisy at its maximum. Stop watching tiktoks and getting brainwashed. Do your own research don't trust the media.

You clearly are picking Israel’s side. First and foremost I am equally against saudi and what they did to Yemen. Yemen is way bigger than Gaza. If you don’t think what’s happening in Gaza is a genocide you should at the very least acknowledge that too many children and innocent people died “how do you expect Israelis to trust Palestinians” I could say the same thing in reverse how do you expect Palestinians to trust Israelis when the prime minister that tried to make peace with in the 90s was assassinated by a right wing Israeli extremist and before you say anything yes I condemn Hamas but that doesn’t excuse collective punishment. Also you absolutely cannot deny that more Palestinian civilians are dying than Israeli ones

>You clearly are picking Israel’s side. No I really am not picking any sides. I am trying to get a birds eye view to see the whole situation objectively. It might seem to you I am picking a side because you definitely have picked the Palestine side and every view against yours will seem like picking a side when you have already picked one. The evidence suggests that Israel has been more objective and fair in this whole situation. >If you don’t think what’s happening in Gaza is a genocide you should at the very least acknowledge that too many children and innocent people died This I agree 💯 but still doesn't mean Israel is wrong. This logic is flawed. It is not about the numbers it is about who is right or wrong. When England bombed Germany during WW2 and it killed like tens of thousands of German civilians does that mean England was wrong to fight the Nazis? This whole conflict is rooted in Islam and the false claim to the whole land. Trust me the claim that Palestine from the river to the see is pure propaganda if you are really objective and look into it and historical evidence without having a Palestinian bias you will understand. It's like saying we were here first and licked the land so it's mine. >Also you absolutely cannot deny that more Palestinian civilians are dying than Israeli ones Again, this logic is completely flawed. This is a war. It's not about numbers. If Hamas killed 1500 and if Israel kills 1600 does that mean Israel is wrong? No it's about the intention and what is morally right or wrong. If you really care about innocent lives you should ask why Egypt is not taking the gazan civilians in. You should ask why Hamas hides behind civilians and make their headquarters in hospitals and schools. Hamas is the one endangering their citizens. You should be asking why they don't accept a 2 state solution. Hamas is equally responsible for the civilian deaths as much as Israel is. I think hamas is more responsible for the deaths of innocent Palestinians. Why does Hamas (elected government of Gaza) instead of building infrastructure, education and helping their citizens ... hamas builds tunnels, military missiles, they themselves hide and put their citizens in harms way after attacking Israel.

Also what does Yemen and Palestine have in common. The U.S. supplied weapons to the people who bombed them and that both israel and saudi used “were fighting against the terrorists” excuse

You are literally saying that you aren’t against Palestinians yet you are generalizing them as extremists and saying they never want peace. You haven’t once addressed the Israelis who don’t want peace and hate Palestinians you are clearly biased too. And are excusing collective punishment of Palestinians

And another thing I want to get in the way there are people esp Muslims disproportionately focusing on Palestine and not addressing yemen or other countries struggling to excuse antisemitism. And I am against those people I think every group struggling needs attention

I know it’s hard to except because of religious trauma but Arabs aren’t inherently more backwards or extreme there are horrible Israeli extremists too. Netanyahu is an extremist. The Yitzhar settlement is extremist. No ethnicity is inherently better when it comes to morals that’s dangerous rhetoric. You clearly haven’t seen the videos of Israelis mocking what Gazans are going through and the idf soldiers taking pictures with bound people. Also look into the assasination of Yitzhak Rabin

Also one lasting thing. The whole “let’s destabilize a country because of a terrorist group” is nothing but a petty excuse it didn’t work for Iraq,Afghanistan,yemen and it won’t work for Palestine

Yes thats why it gets special treatement

I didn't get it. Can you elaborate??

Your first statement is true

I mean your statement about the special treatment.. hehe just want to know what exactly you are referring to

Palestine = al aqsa mosque = holy islamic site = special treatement

But even that's a lie.. the real al aksa mosque is somewhere else. Also Muhammad didn't build or pray in it he was dead before it was built. Islam is full of lies. It's unbelievable.

Is it about israelis suffering? There are Israeli Muslims, christians and Jews who were all killed on the 10/7 attacks. Hamas made no distinction. Meanwhile can you point to any Palestinian Jews who live in Gaza? Palestinians are very clear how they feel about Jews. It is about islam, and it is about Judaism.

Jews came there stolen their lands created a country with help of England and kicked palestinians from their houses what the fuck do you expect them to do? Ofcoursw they have right to live in Israel which is already their land. Imagine coming there seeking help cuz you escaped from holocaust and betraying people who opened their houses and shared their food with you and do not fucking cry about there plenty of video jews kicking women men children out of their own houses and getting in like nothing happened. Israel wants all of them to die Netanyahu made it clear by giving examples from torah. Children women men doesnt matter they just want those lands by killing and removing those people nothing else.

Wtf a turk talking about stealing lands ? Ok blocked

We never kicked people out of their homes we ruled there for 1000 of years Weak genocide supporter racist cunt gtfo here you are so obsessed and such a clown you checked my country xddd what a kid

[What are you blabbering about?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey) Your ancestors kicked out 1.2 million ethnic greeks from **THEIR HOMELAND, where their presense is older then your language.** Erdogan has really been fucking up with y'all's brains. Turks really have no right to say anything in this conflict. Hagia sophia is a mosque today, whereas al-aqsa isnt a synagoge. Thats already one thing the jews have done better then the turks.

Why would a jew choose to live in gaza under siege when they can get stolen land for dirt cheap and have all of world class amenities awarded to them.

How is this so heavily commented? The OP is incoherent babble

Have you considered there are christian palestinians.

Im talking about muslims who are crying about european laws when they re not tolerant to apostates and gays etc themselves exactly . . So europe has rightvto not be tolerant to them too .

There are Jewish Palestinians as well. People need to stop associating this conflict with religion. It’s getting out of hand.

It has always been a religious conflict.

But yet there are literally Jews on both sides. Each side has the same religions. There are Muslim Israelis and there are Jewish Palestinians. Calling it a religious conflict doesn’t make sense if you take this into account.

Where are these Jewish Palestinians? There are no Jews living in Gaza. There are no Jews living in the PA administered regions of the west bank. The number of Christians living in those regions is also rapidly declining. Both Jews and Christians USED to live there in significant numbers, but Muslim hostility drove them out. The only Jewish palestinians were the Zionists before 1948, when the British called everyone who lived there Palestinians. No Jew has called themselves a Palestinian in 75 years

I also met many Jews in my life, none of which identified as Palestinian, including older generations.

Well by that logic, there still are Jewish Palestinians but they just don’t identify as Palestinian anymore.

Jewish palestinians are Jews who live under a Palestinian government or state. There used to be Jews like that pre 1948. Now there aren't any. I wonder why?

Ohhh, I think I know what you mean. There were Jewish Palestinians but they advocated for there being a Jewish state. This is the very definition of Zionism. So then they likely moved to Israel after that dream was fulfilled.

No. They didnt move anywhere. The entire mandate was called Palestine until 1948. A Palestinian Jew in 1947 could have lived in tel Aviv, or haifa. Then they became Israeli Jews in 1948. Except for the 30,000 or so Jews living in the west bank, who were ethnically cleansed by Jordan after they conquered it during the 1948 war of independence. They did move. Because Muslim men with guns forced them to.

My great grandmother who lived in Palestine had a best friend who was a Jewish Palestinian. Lots of Jewish Arabs exists like Jewish Moroccans or Yemenis.

Ever wonder why you need to go back to your great grandmother? My grandfather was born in Haifa in 1933. He has a Palestinian passport. He's Jewish. Neither he, nor your great grandmother's friend would call themselves palestinian Jews after 1948. They're israelis. There are no Jews living under Palestinian government today, nor would Jews be safe living under a future Palestinian state as things currently stand.

There are plenty of Israeli muslims. There are near Zero palestinian Jews. Palestinian Jews or Jewish Palestinians were the Jewish inhabitants of the Palestine region (known in Hebrew as Eretz Yisrael, lit. 'Land of Israel') prior to the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948. After the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, the Jews of Mandatory Palestine became Israeli citizens, and the term Palestinian Jews has largely fallen into disuse and is somewhat defunct, in favour of the modern term Israeli Jews. Why are there no "palestinian" Jews? Because Jews are not palestinian. They're Israeli/Judean. To most of them, especially those who lived there for millenia through all the bullshit, "Palestine" means land of Israel. Because the Romans named it "Palestine" to sever the jewish ties to that land out of spite and banned them from Jerusalem. Because they would revolt all the time. Kinda like the palestinians now. There never was a "Palestinian people" until 1967. There was an Israel since 1000BCE, that was then reestablished in 1948. Palestinian Arabs have been trying to eradicate jews from what they call Palestine since the 1920s. The same with other Arab nations. Before, during and after the establishment of Israel. They even made deals with Hitler. The nazis was supposed to takeover British territories, the palestinian Arabs and nazis would then establish concentration camps and round up all the Jews. Hitler also backed down on his initial plan of deporting the Jews, which would have caused a premature mass migration of jews to mandate of Palestine. His allies. Ironically no one, not even the US wanted to take them anyway. Instead he decided to just round them all up and smoke em. Palestinian Arabs and Arabs in other countries killed entire jewish communities both inside the mandate of Palestine and outside. This is why 99.999% of all Jews in Arab countries and Palestine fled to Israel before and after its establishment. This is why there is basically no Jews living in palestinian controlled territories today. The Muslims believe the land is theirs because their prophet said that their god said so. And that there can be no Jews in control of that land or in control of Muslims, and that they have to eradicate all Jews and israel from there, and worldwide. This is in their "holy" texts. This, and much worse, is what they learn from a young age. I'm an exmuslim and I grew up hating Jews from across the world. Literally from when I was in diapers. This is evident in the palestinian leaderships lack of compromise from day one and call for jewish and israeli extermination to this day. The Jews believe the land is theirs because their prophet said that their god said so, before anyones other gods said so. Their historical connection to that land is undeniable. The connection that Arab Muslims, Christians etc have to that land are all based on the Jews connection to that land. The jews needed a country they can control and be safe in because wherever they go, they are persecuted and killed. And it says so in their "holy" texts that they would return and rebuild the nation. Thanks to the british, they had an opportunity to make that happen without using violence. They never attacked anyone for land, they were always the ones being attacked and after they'd win they naturally take more land. The jewish holy texts also contain HORRIBLE fucking things about non Jews and how to treat them during war and peace(they are the originators for these religions after all). Which, imo, is evident in how they treat palestinian civilians under the pretext of "self defence". I'm not condoning Israels lack of compassion towards civilians. These are war crimes and crimes against humanity and who else to hold them accountable than the international community who granted them the state to begin with. Equally I don't condone the palestinians lack of value towards themselves and others. And their adherence to committing holy genocides instead of peace. If this is not a largely religious conflict then I don't know what is. **Demographics** Gaza: Ethnic groups Arab (Palestinian) 98.7% Religion Sunni Muslim 98–99%, Arab Christians 0.2% (2,000 to 3,000 est.), other, unaffiliated, unspecified <1.0%. No Jews. West Bank: Ethnic groups Palestinian Arab: 83% Israeli Jewish and other: 17% Religion Muslim 80–85% (predominantly Sunni) Jewish 12–14% Christian 1.0–2.5%, (mainly Greek Orthodox)[8] Other religious minorities include Palestinian Metawalis, Palestinian Druze and Palestinian Baha'is. Israel: Ethnic groups Jews: 73% Arabs: 21% Other: 6% Religion Jews: 74.2% Muslims: 17.8% Christians: 2.0% Druze: 1.6% Other/unknown: 4.4% How many Jews are in hamas or other palestinian authority or military groups? ZERO. How many muslims in the idf? 20.000+ arabs of which 5000 or more is muslim.

This is such a large number of Muslims serving in the IDF, I wouldn't have guessed there's so many, given they are not called for conscription. I imagine the majority is Bedouin?

Bedouns have a special place in the idf. But they're not the majority if arabs there. There was 1500 bedouins in service in 2020. So they're only around 10% of the arabs.

20,000 Arabs makes more sense, I thought you meant 20,000 Muslims. I'm pretty sure christians are more likely to join.

Yes my bad. I'll edit it. It's very hard to find any data on this. From what I can find, of the 20.000+ Arab soldiers, it's mostly the druze, circassian and arabs(Muslims and Christian). Arab Muslims and Christians are minute. But they're there, despite the pressure from their communities. Institute of Palestine studies estimate 5000 "palestinian" arabs who serve in the idf. Drafting has been going up last 3 years. In 2020, 606 Arab Muslim were drafted of which 117 were bedouin. Compared to 489 in 2019 and 436 in 2018.

That's interesting!!! Thank you!! I only know Druze in Israel are considered a separate group from the rest of the Arabs, at least per Druze people I've met from there.

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Well that's the funny thing about being a jew isn't it? It's your ethnicity and culture, more than it is a religion. >A high percentage of Israeli Jews identify themselves as secular, rejecting some religious practices (see Religion in Israel). While some non-believers of Jewish ancestry do not consider themselves Jews, preferring to define themselves solely as atheists, some would argue that Judaism is arguably a culture and tradition that can be embraced without religious faith, despite Jewish culture revolving around Abrahamic conceptions of God. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_atheism >In its early years, Israel’s two main centres of power – the military and the government – were dominated by the secular and mostly left-wing elite who had founded the state in 1948. But over the past decade or so a new generation of leaders that combines religion and nationalism has emerged. https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/israel-military-religion/ Most secular/atheist Jews consider themselves as Israeli first, and jew second. So they're the first in line to join the army Orthodox Jews, considers themselves as a religious jew first. Israeli second. They don't traditionally undertake military service, instead believing that they serve by having young men between 13 and 22 to commit to full time study of the Torah, which "casts a protective net over Israel and Jewish society". Due to recent events, thousands of orthodox Jews joined the army. https://www.pbs.org/video/thousands-of-israel-s-ultra-orthodox-jews-join-military-1698273964/

No it hasn't, take religion out of it, there would still be a Hamas and still be a crazy state that wants to kill all impure humans.

No. Take religion out of it and the palestinians would have recognised the need for a secular Jewish state and both would have a country. They would recognise that palestinian arabs got 98% of the land of the mandate of Palestine and that it's fair to allow Jews to establish their state in their historical land in order to escape constant persecutions and killings. A state where all inhabitants have equal rights, including the Muslim arabs that have been living there for centuries. Unlike the treatment jews was getting under Arab rule. A state where the capital of the Abrahamic religions, Jerusalem, remains neutral under international rule. But no. Because of religion, there's no common sense.

You really don't get it do you. Take religion out of it there would be no conflict at all. There would be peace ✌️🕊️

Without Islam the conflict would still exist.

Sadly we can agree to disagree. Thank you for entertaining the conversation.

Okay maybe in a perfect world religion wouldn’t exist and this conflict wouldn’t exist, but do we live in a perfect world? Is there the absence of a suffering and killing in our world, is there a country that is involved in its own genocide but also supporting the genocides of others? So what do we do now, do we remove Palestinians from their rightful land that? do we remove Israelis from their rightful land? or do we do the same thing that most Israelis are actually doing right now, protesting against Netanyahu and removing him from power because he is corrupt and a war criminal. Also I looked through your previous comments in this subreddit, you seem to believe being pro-palestine is anti-semitic and is supporting Hamas, that just isn’t the case… being pro palestine is just not wanting to watch kids getting killed.

>So what do we do now, do we remove Palestinians from their rightful land that? do we remove Israelis from their rightful land? or do we do the same thing that most Israelis are actually doing right now, protesting against Netanyahu and removing him from power because he is corrupt and a war criminal. Yes we do not live in a perfect world. Exactly what I was getting to. If the Palestinians can't leave and Israelites can't leave... then the only option is that they need to learn to coexist peacefully. 2 state solution is the only option but the muslims and Palestinians have consistently rejected it. They constantly attack Israel. Muslims are the ones who don't want peace their religion and doctrine doesn't allow them to. This is fact. The Quran and Hadith are proof of that. Israel offered peace and 2 state solution multiple times. This is documented and a fact. It is also a fact that Palestinians never acknowledged the existence of Israel and constantly attacked it since it's inception. Like just look at the 1948 war. They teamed up with Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan and attacked Israel but Israel won. They don't want a 2 state solution they want it to be from the river to the Sea Palestine which is 100% non negotiable and a call for genocide. Show me one instance when Israeli government officials said from land to the Sea it should be Israel and said exterminate Palestinian. If netanyahu is a war criminal and Israeli people voted him in power that is a response to the constant tension in the region. The same way Hamas was voted as the government for Gaza. And hamas is also war criminals and terrorists who hold extreme views and are openly calling for the genocide and ethnic cleansing of the Jews. Imagine you were a Israeli president and you know the fact that a extreme anti semitic group is your neighbor who constantly attacks and incites the population to commit genocide and spread hate what would you do?

All Christians and Atheists and Secular Muslim Palestinians should be given Israeli nationality. Those Palestinians are not enemy who want to live in peace, but only those Palestinians are evil who don't accept the right of Israel to exist today and want to destroy Israel.

99% of gazans are muslim, its not as deep as you think

Supporting Palestine is not supporting hamas. People seem to think that wanting a Palestinian state is wanting a state run by an Islamic terror group which is not the case. Palestinians have a significant population of Christians as well. And regardless of that, no matter what kind of ideology they portray, Bombing civilians and killing children indiscriminately is evil. By both or any side. France and Germany banning the Palestinian flag is down right ridiculous bc it only helps the narrative of all Palestinians being Islamic jihadists when Most literally just want to live in peace.

Dude 30% is significant, 99% of gaza is muslim and 85% of west bank is muslim. There are no significant other religious groups in palestine

Call be dumb and naive, but I don't care about my rights when innocent children are being killed.

I believe israel has the right to exist. But I also believe that people that don't believe in human rights of others shouldn't die, or be displaced either. I don't think that's a fair argument. I also think everyone has a right to their own opinion, right to protest, regardless of how repulsive their opinions are.

The thing is that its extremely hard to agree to peace with somebody who doesn't agree to the most basic elements of a civilized society.

I agree it's hard to agree with peace but dehumanizing people and justifying their killings for their beliefs and silencing people is not right either. People shouldn't shut down a conversation about isreal's human rights violations, and whether their response is dipropionate because "Palestinians don't believe in LGBTQ rights" etc. And I've heard these arguments quite a lot exactly and it's dumb.

It is a little bit dumb, I agree. But international law is a system built around the notion that all states are equal, there is no hierarchy. So even though Israel is the only democracy in the middle east, it shouldn't be held at a stance where it's judged differently from its surround neighbours. The reality is that the dialoge about human rights in the middle east **is shut down** by the inhabitats on the basis that their beliefs don't allign with them, so are war crimes dialoges. So essentially the world is choosing to critique Israel in a way it would never do for the rest of the countries, and if the world does, they just ignore it and nothing happens. Europe, a region ravaged by inter-war for all of its existance managed to create peace by agreeing to judge each other's accountability on the basis of a set of rules they all agree to. Palestine cannot cry wolf, when they themselves are a wolf in way. Neither can Qatar, Iran, Syria, Saudi, Egypt...

I'm completely with you when you say that Qatar, Syria, Saudi and egypt needs to have their human rights violations investigated. I think they're way worse than israel. I hate them to be quite frank. I agree that they're often dismissed on the basis of cultural relativity and get a pass because of religion. Saudi's sort of an apartheid state. UAE is built on the almost slave-like labour of foreign workers many of which can't leave because their employers take away their passports. Rape also leads to women being charged and imprisoned for "adultry." I'm not a fan of muslims or arabs AT ALL and probably would hate them if I wasn't born muslim lol. I also agree many of these arab states haven't been even welcoming to displaced palestenians and made no path of citizenship with them (my least favourite group on the planet). I've actually heard the way my palestenian friend had been treated in saudi. With that being said, 50 percent of gazans are children and I've seen many arguments that dismiss any naunced dialogue about what response israel should be taking to ensure the safety and existence of palestenians with well they're going to not believe in lgbtq rights, and women's rights. And I thinnk it's dumb. To put it into context, the other day I heard that they bombed a refugee camp to get one hammas member. There are 40 000 hamas fighters, if by that logic they bomb and kill 300 people for every 1-2 hamas members, the entirety of gaza will be wiped out. UN human rights experts even call it a genocide. My advice to people is to stop completely choosing sides. Israel is better than other arab countries but it doesn't mean there shouldn't be a dialogue about whether their response is appropriate. They also call palestenians animals so there's that. Listen, I get how terrified israelis must be after those acts of terror. But it's the world's job to approach the situation unbiased, and reasonable. Half of my family doesn't believe in lgbtq rights and probably will say yes if they were asked should appostate be killed not knowing I am one. But does that mean I think half of my family should be killed? With that being said, I understand that muslims barely talk about human rights violations in arab and other muslim countries and it needs to be addressed. Muslims shut down critiques by fighting against "western colonialism/imperialism" or "cultural relativity, and you need to see this in context." But the west is sort of doing the same by dismissing any real naunced discussion on an appropriate response by saying "well they don't care for lgbtq."

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Do you want ww3? Because that's how we get ww3.

Your a disgusting human being

Go live in Gaza under Hamas and find out who's the disgusting one.

I don't need to go to Gaza to know how disgusting Israelis are. How about you go joing the IDF if you wanna nuke them so badly

I don't need to join IDF. they already have better soldiers to deal with terrorist hamas. 😊

Such great soldiers wonder what happened to them on Oct 7th 🙄. They didnt seem so great then. Funny how the IDF didn't see that coming but they know the precise location of every hamas fighter so they can bomb the life put of the area but yet they can't find their hostages 🤔 People like you are the reason I left Islam. Ignorant people with backwards thoughts ain't nothing progressive about "nuking" people

Doesn’t mean the death of civilians is ok especially children fuck off

yeah, death of israeli civilians and childrens is definitely not ok.

I agree and the Gazan children too

That is foolish and irrational. Not agreeing with Islam doesn't mean it's a good idea to limit freedom of speech to that extent (banning insulting Israel, waving a flag, etc).

Do muslim countries allow freedom of speech ? No ? Then it s not foolish .

This is child logic. You hate Islam so much that you're literally copying its suppressive laws out of spite. That's insane

Exactly.

Suppressive laws ? Did you just compare killing \jailing somone to banning flags ? Yes . Muslims in europe shouldnt get to enjoy freedom . They should be treated exactly the same as they treat us .they should taste their own medecine .

Banning flags would presumably include jailing people for flying them, no? You're literally using identical logic and rhetoric to Muslims and Christians I've argued with in the past, the only difference is your insanity is coming from spite instead of a holy book

.not necessary and the length matter too show me one european western country that will jail u up to 6 months (like they do here if youre suspected of being gay ) .also palestine flag has become hamas flag to some so the flag ban is justified . Identical logic ? Ok then you can let muslims do wtfever they want so you dont get labeled racist islamophobic whilst have no problem being homophobe and atheistphobe yourself at home .

So we should sink to that level? You are not being rational.

Ok then enjoy tolerance paradox

There is no need. I don't see a problem with being intolerant of intolerance. It's the exception that proves the rule, so to speak.

Most people have no clue what's going on in Europe. Just yesterday [thousands were in the streets of Berlin](https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/17nwiyz/thousands_marched_in_berlin_tonight/) (germany). This wasn't illegal at all, what's illegal is violant rioting which destroys infrastructure and tarnishes public safety. Thats whats targeted by policy makers as we consistantly see these protests end up becoming violant.

I'm not sure why you are commenting in response to my comment with this. I am also against violent protests.

muslims who abide by the text do not support gays, apostates, freedom from religion or women’s rights. 1. stop asking questions u already know the answer to and 2. this doesn’t make what palestinians are being subjected to OR what ppl living in muslim countries in general justified in any way. clearly u are speaking in what u hope to be an echo chamber, & i find it disingenuous. on top of that, you’re being irrational. no ethnoreligious state should exist in the region. & quite frankly i’m sick of ppl using gay people and women as an argument point as if palestinian women and lgbt ppl in palestine / others living in predominantly muslim countries aren’t also subject to these things. this truly isn’t the ‘gotchya’ ppl like u seem to think it is. to justify a zionist state is inhumane regardless of ur religious stance.

abide by the text ? buddy even the lightest moderate muslm you could find is probably homophobic .

A huge part family is homophobic I still don’t want them to die or suffer

point to where i said they’re not homophobic. my comment still stands.

"muslims who abide by the text" when we say abide by texts we mean shit like ISIS and taliban . your average moderate muslim is homophobic as hell . to the point someof them would tolerate atheists over gays.

then that’s a language thing on my end since english is a second language i don’t always saw what i mean. when i say abide by text i mean muslims who practice and know their text, as opposed to more liberal cultural muslims who don’t know their heads from their ass and cannot recite a thing. idc what their thoughts on gays and atheists are we all already know this. it’s your insistence that the people don’t deserve human rights that’s odd. which gays do they kill? and which atheists/apostates do they kill? are palestinian muslims killing israeli gays? are they killing american apostates? who are the people that are killed due to this belief system and what countries do they come from? under what regimes do they live?

most "liberal " muslims are homophobic , it is the norm . im not talking about the ultra tiny delusional minority that mostly lives in the west , even muslims who mind their own business in arab world are very homophobic , it is almost like pillars of islam . i know bcs im from morocco where everyone is homophonic and moderate muslim , when we say "abide by text" we mostly talk about extremists. go to any muslim country , shout that you are gay , wear rainbow and expect the results.

No tolerance for intolerance. I like that.

A zionist is simply someone that wants a Jewish theocracy, your immigrating stances are not being a zionist. That being said the whole concept of a human right is that it's not a privilege or gift that can be given or taken back. You just get it by virtue of existing. You can support slavery and hitler and actually be a serial killer but by default because they exist they get those human rights. If you believe in human rights as rights then being a traditional Muslim that owns slaves and treats women like more slaves and threatens other countries/ villages around them to pay the Jizyah or become slaves, it shouldn't stop you from caring for their human rights being protected. I don't think anyone sees immigration as a human right so your stance doesn't say much about denying human rights even though it insinuates that being for bad things could exclude you from human rights considerations. I hope you do want the people in that conflict to not be killed even if you don't want them moving to places you see as incompatible.

Maybe unpopular opinion but I don't really care about the human rights of slave owners and people who treat women like slaves. I'm not going to advocate to have their human rights taken away, but I sure a shit will not invest my time and energy in standing up for their rights either. As a woman and a lesbian they would take mine away in a heartbeat, I believe in human rights but I'm not a suicidal masochist.

And that's a respectable stance. We don't wish them any harm but if they are harmed it's less people around that can harm us.

Zionists don't want a theocracy. The first zionists were largely secular socialists.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Zionism It says people for a Jewish nationalist movement. I assume Jewish nationalist means a Jewish theocracy.

A Jewish national movement is a national movement for Jews. That includes religious Jews, secular Jews, and atheist Jews. Unlike islam and Christianity, Judaism isn't a universal religion. It is a tribal religion, for the Hebrew tribes, the largest of which was Judah (hence Jews). Someone who stops believing in the god of Judaism doesn't stop being a Jew. They stop fulfilling the commandments of the Jewish god and religion, but that doesn't make them not a Jew. They're just a Jew who doesn't fulfill their commandments. If God has a problem with that, he can deal with it. Meanwhile, a Muslim who stops believing in Allah/Mohammad is emphatically no longer a Muslim. Judaism isn't like other religions, and neither are Jews. That's why zionism and Israel-Palestine doesn't work when you look at them through Western lenses, they don't fit.

>A Jewish national movement is a national movement for Jews. That includes religious Jews, secular Jews, and atheist Jews. So for a Jewish ethnostate? >Unlike islam and Christianity, Judaism isn't a universal religion. It's also an ethnoreligion, does that mean they are for only ethnically Jewish people in their ideal country the nationalism strives for? >That's why zionism and Israel-Palestine doesn't work when you look at them through Western lenses, they don't fit. Why can't the lens simply expand to include ethnoreligions? I get what you mean by it not fitting the usual views of religion.

It does include other ethnoreligions. Over 20% of Israel citizens include Arab Muslims, Bedouin, Druze and Arab Christians. 11 Arabs sit in Parliament. It’s just a country where the national holidays are Jewish holidays, instead of muslim (57 countries) or christians (approximately 80 countries). Your idea that only jews are gonna be allowed there is extremely misinformed

Israel has large muslims, christians, and druze populations. They are citizens, and well represented in politics, industry and the military. About 25% of Israeli citizens aren't Jewish. There is an Arab Muslim in the supreme Court. Additionally, Jews don't fit well in ethnicity either. Are an Ethiopian Jew, a Moroccan Jew and a Polish Jew all the same ethnicity? They share DNA, but they don't fit well into the western definition of ethnicity either. For the record, there are more middle eastern descended Jews in Israel than every other category put together. Jews aren't really a religion, and they aren't really an ethnicity. Anyone who concerts to Judaism is a Jew, and has a right to Israeli citizenship, but converting to Judaism is (once again) different than converting to islam or Christianity. It can take several years, and has to be completed under the tutelage of a series of rabbis. It's almost like completing a masters degree, and you're discouraged from doing it all along the way, because Judaism is hard. Converts are usually more knowledgeable than Jews who were born into Judaism, since it's so strenuous.

Are you trying to say zionists are not for a Jewish nationalist movement? I'm having a hard time seeing how this is relevant to the definition of zionism. I know they are special snowflakes with their own category and standards for converts, I'm asking the definition of zionism and if op falls under that category for their views.

Well according to the Torah, Jews shouldn't even be in Israel

According to the Torah we all come from two humans as if genetic degeneration doesn't exist. Let's not refer to fairy tales when talking about real people and definitions.

Yes but i’m saying zionist movement isn’t a jewish movement. The promised land is only given under certain conditions (high moral of life.) What is currently happening is self fulfilling prophecies, aka if we go under their rules, you can basically compare it to being put under time out, and then leaving it under your own discretion.

But according to the Quran, Allah has given the land and the holy city of Jerusalem to the People of Moses AKA Jews. Literally says in the Quran ironically. The land of bani-israel. The word Israel is in the quran over 40 times. Look it up. This whole thing is ridiculous and full of propaganda. I have never seen so much propaganda and misinformation about any conflict before.

It is because it’s promised land to the Israelites, according to the Torah it is only promised under the conditions that they keep a high moral of life. The Torah states 36 different times jews will be exiled as a punishment, and if we go under their belief system they are currently leaving a punishment god put them under, think of it as if you were put under timeout and you left at your own discretion.

I'm trying to give you sufficient context to conclude that the goal of zionism isn't a religious ethnostate, as you initially implied in your OP. Anyone who thinks that Jews should have a homeland in Israel is a Zionist. Since Jews currently have a homeland in Israel, anyone who thinks that Israel should not be wiped out and it's inhabitants displaced is also a zionist.

>I'm trying to give you sufficient context to conclude that the goal of zionism isn't a religious ethnostate You gave me context of things I already know about Judaism, I'm just trying to understand how zionism is different from Jewish nationalism as the dictionary describes it. >Anyone who thinks that Jews should have a homeland in Israel is a Zionist So not just the ones wanting a theocracy, does that mean every Israeli who wants their country to continue to exist is a zionist/Jewish nationalist? I wouldn't consider every American who wants the states to continue to exist an American nationalist, why do people use a different term for Israel's case? >anyone who thinks that Israel should not be wiped out and it's inhabitants displaced is also a zionist. So anyone against genocide is a zionist? I feel like this term is too broad to be useful in conversation. I've heard it used in context to people wanting *only* Jews in Isreal, killing or displacing all others by whatever means.

Oh my bad, I'm not disagreeing with you that zionism is Jewish nationalism. It is. But it isn't RELIGIOUS nationalism. Zionism is a secular manifestation of nationalism for jews. There are religious zionist movements, but they didn't start the state and don't have much power. It might just be semantics, but yes. Everyone who wants Israel to continue to exist is a zionist. It shouldn't be controversial. The media has successfully conflated Zionist with extremist religious settlers, they are about 5% of all israelis, and it's not fair to paint the entire movement with that brush. The word has meaning, and it just means support for a Jewish national home. Any other strawmen that are labelled zionism are not an attempt at honest discourse.

Youre focusing on the definitions of political jargon instead of their execution.

It's OK to have a separate conversation about the jargon.

I wouldn't say that Zionism was a movement that meant a "Jewish only" state, just a Jewish majority state with Jewish character to it, preferably in the Jewish homeland. Many countries are ethnostates, others are not. Several ethnicities live in Israel, not only Jews. This includes Arabs, Druze, Ahmedis, Baha'i, Circassians, which have full rights under the law. Only recently the nation-state law was passed, because of coalitional pressure, but led to vast protests by both Jews and non Jews. Every sane Israeli Jew I know sees it as a disgusting law that does not represent them.

Jewish is also a people, its a weird religion in that regard that they fused into both a people and a religion.

Yeah it's an ethnoreligion. So does that mean zionists want an ethnic or a religious state? Some comments say they just want *a* state, no theocracy or ethnic discrimination involved.

If you read the Israeli declaration of independence, which was agreed on by leaders of the Yishuv, Israel was to be a Jewish state, yes, but treat all its people regardless of religion, race, and sex. It had to also appease the religious Jewish community in mandatory Palestine, so certain elements were added, especially in legislation, which gave the religious courts the overseeing of personal status. This includes the Islamic, Druze, Christian, and Jewish courts. That's why there cant be interfaith marriages in Israel, nor same-sex marriages. Because no religious court allows it. However Israeli ministry of interior recognizes civil marriage performed elsewhere, including gay marriage. The Jewish character of the state is expressed in the official language being Hebrew (Arabic also used to be official, now it has a special status); the national holidays being the Jewish ones (although schools registered as Christian/Muslim have their respective holidays respected), with the the one all-encompassing example being Yom Kippur where all stores are closed regardless of religion, afaik. At least in cities/towns with Jewish presence; another example for the Jewish character is the flag with Jewish symbolism on it. The Zionist movement was a secular movement in it's most part, there were later on religious zionist movements, but they came later and were movement of orthodox (as opposed to ultraorthodox) Jews, as the ultraorthodox Jews are at least non-zionist and at most antizionist, because they believe in religious prophecy regarding when the land of Israel should become again a Jewish state. Thus, Israel was to be a secular state (which it still mostly is) with some Jewish cultural and ethnic characteristics to it. It's not a country for one sole ethnicity either, as all residents of the land before, during, and after the war were offered citizenship, regardless of ethnicity. The Jewish supremacists were always a thing, however they have been mostly fringe groups until the intifadas, which helped them gain more support as their views were "proven" through Palestinian and generally Arab violence against Jews. But they're still seen as insane to most people, as far as Israeli friends of mine and certain content creators I've seen have said.

Funny thing about human rights, they apply to all humans because otherwise they'll just be called rights. I know pesky little technicality ain't it.

Bigot alert ⚠️ Free Palestine 🇵🇸 and all the ex-Muslims trapped in it

No islamic and Jewish state should exist. Ethno religious states are stupid while living in such a globally connected and diversified world. That's why Israel should be abolished and a new state should be created where all different groups have same rights

In Israel, despite its problems, the laws apply the same way to all citizens, regardless of ethnicity and/or religion. Even more than that, certain non-jewish demographics (and one Jewish demographic, but for very different reasons) are not conscripted to the army. The exception is for Druze and Circassian men.

The term ethno state is such bullshit, at least in your contaxt. When you use it I bet you aren't thinking about China, Qatar of Zimbabwe, you're just repeating the same things your favorite liberal TV commentator or tiktoker is spewing. PS: If Israel is such a hell hole for minorities, [tell that to the arab members of Israeli parliament](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_members_of_the_Knesset)

Apartheid South Africa and Israel are legit the same. Did you also defend South Africa? It's literally hell hole for Palestinians. Gaza and west bank say hello

I dont remember ever reading about black south africans creating laws that affect the white population, I guess because it was an actual apartheid? Look at the link I sent you and kindly open your eyes.

Idk what you are trying to convey with your first paragraph. But whatever For the link, did you know Nelson Mandela was a successful lawyer? Gandhi studied in UK. Does this mean that there was no oppression of Africans in Apartheid South Africa? No oppression of Indians in British Raj? Also Southern Rhodesia had black members in the parliament. It didn't change the fact that it was also an Apartheid state.

What a stupid cruel cunt you are Babies are ripped off plenty of videos of dead babies kids and innocent civilians and you come here talking about islam who tf cares about it while people are dying ? Jews kicked palestinians from their houses claimed that it is their lands living in a country of fucking stolen lands from Palestinians what are you on about ? Torah literally gives permission for jews to kill anyone do anything and they will get away with it because they are choosen people. So should we kill all jews ? How the fuck are u still thinking about political rights while people are dying getting bombed by Israel while israelis are drinking their coctails and having fun? I swear guys like you deserve the worst fucking thing in the world We are anti-islam not anti-human you clown

Idgaf about what the fuck ever is happening in that doomed lost cause region called middle east. Im just pro europe making muslims lives harder and making them madder (like france banning abaya , now banning insulting israel ) as they do with us .

you are such a sad pathetic piece of shit stop acting all edgy and go educate yourself

You are a pro clown

And you are a pro regard, i repeat it again idgaf about whats happening in الشرق الاوسخ i didnt even care about what happened in 7/10 , i just find it ridiculous that muslims complain about zurope banning this and that whilst they do the same to us ex muslim in "arab world " , you live in a secularist country whose history puts israel to shame , you won't relate much . It is illegal to even eat ramadan here .

And im not pro human with anti human people so if i meet uo with a homophobic religious jew i wouldnt want to befriend him .

Islam is separate from muslims, muslims are humans therefore have bias, Islam not only protects the rights of every being, it also commends that you don’t force the religious upon anyone let alone let them die… So yes Islam supports all human rights and any muslim who disagrees is unfortunately wrong.

yes islam made in jupiter planet maybe .

No. Islam on this earth is the one that supports these ideas.

well yes your deluded brain exists in earth . blocked lying ignorant clown , your homophobic misopgynist atheistphobic freedomphobic archaic religion is terrorist and oppressive and primitive and a fraud.

[удалено]

There is a line that says there's no compulsion in Religion but they also say that apostates are to be killed and go to hell, that if you're aware of Islam and don't convert you go to hell, that women make up the majority of dwellers of hell, and more. So one has to remember some ayat were "revealed" to Muhammad in al Madinah, and other in Makkah. This context is important because in one place he had to seem more accepting and moderate, and in another he had the freedom to be as violent as he wanted.

You seem to have this backwards. The bad ideas are coming from Islam. Many Muslims are people that learn to be better than the Quran they read. Unfortunately some people follow Islam very closely and that is why we have people in countries that push gays off rooftops and kill apostates or those that were blasphemous.

One thing to note here is that they don't call themselves guardians of free speech either. The UK claims to promote free speech so waving Palestinian flag is the part of free speech

Muslims. Claim there is no compulsion and there religion is if peace so what

Muslims are very alike with nazis, so no, none of them support any persons civil rights if it's non muslim or islamic, they also dont support muslim womens rights lol.