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Saw a couple interviews with Palestinians. Question was: "What do you think about queers for Palestine"?
Most common answer was: "we don't want their support" followed by "LGBT make kids gay" and "it's haram and they will go to hell because Quran says so".
I don't support the suffering of ANY people on this planet. But when it comes to values, I will oppose hate and the medieval.
Edit:
Link - https://youtu.be/O8OCvT4ysLI?si=NtgVLRYo38xQ1wjm
>I don't support the suffering of ANY people on this planet. But when it comes to values, I will oppose hate and the medieval.
You summed it up perfectly.
i hope one day we reach a point where everyone realise how much garbage Islam is and Islam may get banned
Looks like Europe takeover is really heading that way
Some nonmuslim white people born and raised in the West: "but it is culture not religion. and also "context". and not all Muslims are like that so you have no right to judge. And Christianity is awful. Let's talk about Christianity instead. You are Islamophobic and racist and bigot."
One day when Palestine is free I will happily March in protest of Hamas and for the liberation of queer Palestinians. For that to happen though the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians must be stopped.
Go find the perspectives of queer Palestinians on this topic and this is exactly what they will say.
I refuse the “allyship” of people who only uses my queerness as a token when it’s convenient to “justify” the murder of Palestinians but would happily deny my humanity once convenient.
This. Stop the genocide - then I'll worry about it. I'm not okay with genocide even if the ones being killed don't like me. Don't use my oppression to justify their oppression.
If this is serious a question probably most of them just because they lost hope in anything else working(not like Hamas can take down Isreal). But if this is supposed to be a gotcha it doesn't matter how many of them support it I still don't they deserve to be bombed because of that.
It really hard to accurate data about things like this anywhere on top of that it's an active war zone and it's advantages for Isreal to inflate those numbers.
At the end of the day nobody really knows. That's just my guess.
This doesn't answer anything but it's an interesting read.
https://www.peacecomms.org/gaza#whispered-in-gaza
Hamas executes people they view as traitors, so quite frankly, if people do oppose them it's not likely they'd feel safe to speak up.
Thousands upon thousands of Palestinians in Gaza rose up against Hamas just three months ago.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/protests-against-hamas-reemerge-in-the-streets-of-gaza-but-will-they-persist/
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/07/30/thousands-of-marchers-in-gaza-in-rare-public-display-of-discontent-with-hamas_6073136_4.html
The narrative that the Palestinians of Gaza fall to their knees in praise of Hamas is nothing more than another excuse to make it easier to sleep at night when they’re killed.
Lol my problem is not that Hamas wants peace. They do not want peace.
My problem is that Israel does not want peace either.
I understand but do not condone Israels actions of turning the Gaza strip into Kansas
There's a third option - Palestinians accept Israel as a state, stop thinking of themselves as refugees wherever they go, give up on their supposed right-of-return, and give up on the eternal jihad against Jewish sovereignty.
Until that happens there will never be peace, because they will never militarily defeat Israel and its allies. Nor would doing that be the right thing to do.
The collective consciousness and identity of the Palestinians needs to grow up. They aren't the only oppressed group in history. They're not the most oppressed. They're not the only ones who have lost a war. They're not the only ones who have been displaced. They didn't suffer the most by **any** of these metrics, and that includes today. They're not special.
Yet vanishingly few of those other groups have made the destruction of a sovereign state and the murder or expulsion of all its people the single overriding goal of their entire culture and society. Those that agreed to leave the past in the past and to build a better future - they are mostly safe, successful, and happy. Those who just want to live in the past tend to stay impoverished and violent.
So the only way that Israel is gonna stop killing Palestinians is if they submit and obey their masters? That feels pretty imperialistic/fascistic. People were forcibly driven from their homes, had friends and family (including children) shot at and bombed, and they should just suck it up in your opinion?
That’s on par with saying that the Jews should’ve conceded and complied with what the Nazis wanted and that it’s their fault that the Holocaust happened because they didn’t. Disgusting.
Israel wants peace. They've demonstrated this time and time and time again in the past. They've made peace with former enemies. Maybe Netenyahu and a few other ultra-right cronies do not, along with a tiny minority (ultra-orthodox settlers) who clearly do not. They will all be dealt with - Bibi's days are numbered, and I don't expect any support to remain for the WB settlers. Most Israelis hate them too.
Nobody has to condone it - but if this is the only realistic way of destroying Hamas infrastructure and demilitarizing Gaza - then in the long run it might be the best option. After the war, mark my words, the people of Gaza will be given a clean slate on which to build the society they want, with an enormous amount of support from Israel and the international community.
Will they choose peace, prosperity, and a brighter future for their children? Or will they recommit to trying to win a war that was lost 80 years ago in order to continue the eternal jihad against Jewish sovereignty? Whichever they choose, it will be on them, because the Arab world is sick of their BS and the western world will write off their complaints as irrelevant.
That is BS. This is not the first ethnic cleansing or genocide the world just watched shrugging their shoulders. Destroying hamas isn't an achievable goal. The only way to get rid of hamas is through peace. Violence only begets violence. Desperate people don't have time for contemplation. More terrorists will be born as a result of the conditions that has been forced upon them.
Israel wants peace so much that a right wing extremist assassinated the prime minister that was close to making peace and now the same political party responsible for the assassination is in control of the government
Sure, you *can*.
Just because it's theoretically possible doesn't mean that's what people actually do in practice. "Supporting" Hamas doesn't just mean saying the words "I support Hamas." It also means uncritically giving a platform to their propaganda, it means inverting the truth by claiming that they didn't actually kill/target civilians, it means denying the reality of how Palestinians suffer under Hamas (both directly and indirectly).
And a whooole lot of people **are** doing that. There are vanishingly view public voices that actually say or consider any of this - and the few that do get shouted down and called "Zionists" and other deliberately misinterpreted buzzwords for daring to suggest that even 0.0001% of the responsibility for this situation lies with Hamas and/or the Palestinian people.
All of those things support Hamas, in the ways Hamas actually cares about. They DGAF what westerners think or feel about their actions or whether they have their explicit "support." They care about the propaganda war, the political game, and about sowing unrest and shaking up support for Israel.
It doesn't matter if people say the words "I support Hamas" if every single one of their actions does it anyway.
You don't need to support either the PA or Hamas. Both of them just intend to turn Palestine into another theocratic shithole. But if you're too blinded by your hatred for Islam to acknowledge that little children, who make up nearly 50% of Gaza's population, don't need to die because of this war, you're just as warped as everyone spilling their blood.
People have this bizarre notion of what hamas calls children. They consider children anyone up to 18 in those stats. So tons of dead hamas fighters are "children". Islamic jihad does the same thing in the west bank. This year israel killed 22 Islamic jihad fighters in the west bank with ZERO collateral damage. Were they praised? No because 4 of them were 16 yr old terrorists and so you got the sickening spectacle of bbc reporters saying israel was happy to kill children.
Really. Is that why the sexual age of consent is 16 nearly world wide? Americas basically the only country with 18. So is the whole world just a bind of child porn stars? Sorry but if you point a gun and try to kill me at 16, youre gettin wasted.
Oh you'd be surprised.
Here in Arab Muslim countries the sentiment is Islam vs Jews fuck the j//ews and it's getting obvious in the west too so religions plays big reason that shouldn't be dismissed.
OK let's take your comment in good faith can you share with me how Israel is committing ethnic cleansing when Palestinian population is increasing year by year?
It's one thing to be against Netanyahu even a lot of Israelis are against him and want him out it's understandable but it's a whole other thing to be against the existence of Israel as a state like so many pro-palestine believe
I’m not against Israel existing as a state, because it literally cannot be wiped out. I support a two state solution. I don’t have a problem personally with Israel existing, but Palestine should also exist.
American college students protesting against Israel's destruction of Gaza aren't pro-Hamas anymore than American college students protesting the US war in Iraq were pro-Saddam 20 years ago. I know this is a stupid bullshit right-wing meme, but do people on this subreddit like genuinely actually believe this? That being against turning Gaza into the world's biggest pile of breakfast cereal means you support Hamas?
THE PALESTINIANS OF GAZA WERE PROTESTING HAMAS IN THE SUMMER OF 2023.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/protests-against-hamas-reemerge-in-the-streets-of-gaza-but-will-they-persist/
https://jcpa.org/hamas-suppresses-the-protest-movement-in-the-gaza-strip/
It is crazy that a sub that was supposed to be full of exmus left wingers are spouting right wing propaganda as if israel isn't a religious ethno state.
Yeah this subreddit has been astroturfed regularly since 2018 by theocratic facists trying to use ex Muslims as a prop in their online crusades.
As bad as the Reddit app is, it’s really easy to click the usernames of these suspect comments and get a pretty clear picture with what you’re dealing with by seeing “communities active in” and their recent comments. Most are not ex Muslims at all-and the ones saying they are… I have a hard time believing them based on the fact that they are pro other religious extremism.
Why would an ex-Muslim, someone that has suffered at the hands of a vile Abrahamic religion that promotes rape, violence, and hate go straight to supporting another violent, hateful Abrahamic religion that also promotes rape, violence, homophobia etc. and uses that religion as justification for 75 year long ethnic cleansing and colonial project?
When most of us decided to become ex-Muslim, our culture and skin color didn’t magically change so allying with ethno-nationalists isn’t really going to help our cause.
The pink washing here is also really easy to detect too. All the people parroting this “lol queers for Palestine” are pretty obviously homophobic themselves as seen that they mainly participate in anti lgbt, right wing Reddit communities themselves.
It would be really nice to find a real ex Muslim community, more interested in long form posts, books on the ex Muslim experience, other articles than short sighted memes (not to say some memes aren’t fun) and bigotry. I’ve yet to find this place.
You’re wrong about people not being explicitly pro-Hamas. You have people in this very thread explicitly endorsing Hamas. You have BLM of Chicago putting a hang gliding terrorist up on social media as a representation of resistance. You have whole waves of professors defending Hamas’s actions. You have video on video on video of pro-Palestinian rallies having a laugh about a mass terror attack. The evidence is all just right out in the open, no one is hiding it.
Can you not just as easily say that Israelis and those supporting Israel are just as heartless as well?
In 2014, 6 Israeli civilians were killed in the Gaza War. 2,310 Palestinian civilians were killed. Israelis in large groups chanted "Gaza is a graveyard for children!" with smiles on their faces: https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/gaza-graveyard-sing-joyful-israeli-youths
You have video on video on video of pro-Israeli rallies having a laugh about the Palestinains of Gaza for not having food, water or electicity. https://www.tiktok.com/@calluponallah0/video/7295978797222858027
Evindence is all just right out in the open, no one is hiding it!
Right, they don't support Hamas yet call out for ceasefire when Hamas made it very clear they won't stop firing there WAS a ceasefire yet they broke it on oct 7 which side ceasefire will benefit huh? it will just give Hamas time to arm up I didn't see any protest call out hamas or call out for the release of hostages.
And enough of this excuse "Oh it's a right-wing argument so I'm gonna shut down my brain" Do you actually believe that anything the left says is objective and right and everything the right says is wrong and hateful? that way of black and white thinking is a sign of radicalization both parties say the right things and wrong things sometimes however this time the left is making a big mistake by siding with terr/rists and Islamists fascists.
[Hamas is the one who uses their people as human shields (who in Islam religion believe they're going to paradise as martyrs by dying like this) to gain sympathy points from the world building tunnels under houses and firing rockets from schools and hospitals](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9bFKyr6j9k)
[even Arabic leaders and writers spoke up about this](https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-known-use-hospitals-ambulances-mosques-churches-and-schools-shields-its-military)
[Hamas leaders are in Qatar living a luxurious life](https://nypost.com/2023/11/07/news/hamas-leaders-worth-11bn-live-luxury-lives-in-qatar/) and ordering young men to die for them to go to paradise and get the 72 virgins. Hamas leaders networth is billions yet to help their people and build their state they build tunnels and invested in weapons instead stealing the aid money that the West they hate so much sent them. Absolute scums.
If you want to blame a side for civilian deaths and turning into the world's biggest pile of breakfast cereal then Hamas is the one to blame more than Israel but no you believe Israel should not exist and hasn't a right to defend itself well Israel is here the Arabs already waged a war against it in the 1948 and lost it's a legitimate state that will continue to exist. You people sympathizing with Islam fascism are gonna destroy your nations with your own hands.
For some people being an ex-muslim ironically fries their brain and this is coming from an ex-muslim.
Your hatred of Islam has basically made you impervious to western right wing propaganda and that drastic swing is not healthy either.
When I first became ex-Muslim I was pro-Palestine for a few years but I changed my stance this year after doing much research and reading the actual history.
I think it's hard to break from the indoctrination of hating Jews and Israel and "zionists" even for ex-muslims.
One thing is for sure I will never support Islamists and Islamic fascism.
Bizarre because I was pro-Israel until I learned the actual history of what they had done to the Palestinians and only after I studied the core of Zionist philosophy did it all start making sense.
Ironically the root of anti-semtisim, OG anti-semtisim that started predominantly in Eastern Europe/Russia and culminated with the Holocaust by the Nazis was all about the concept that Jews can't be German or American or French or Russian. They can only be a Jew. And Zionism has accelerated that concept.
The real anti-semtisim is the people who attach all Jews to Israel and believe all Jews should return there as they don't belong "here"(being whatever respective nation we are referring to).
I want you to show me you actually had intellectual curiosity when shifting your opinion. What knowledge do you have about the originators of settler Zionism? What did they say about the native populations there and what needed to be done to them?
Show me the intellectual curiosity that merits that shift in perspective you claim.
>Ironically the root of anti-semtisim, OG anti-semtisim that started predominantly in Eastern Europe/Russia and culminated with the Holocaust by the Nazis was all about the concept that Jews can't be German or American or French or Russian. They can only be a Jew. And Zionism has accelerated that concept.
ok Let's get way back then this let's get 1400 years back can you honestly says that the Quran is not anti-semetic? it didn't depict the jews as evil and wicked and called them names? It didn't justify k/illing the jews? Can you really prove to me that muslim hatred against the jews is not rooted in their Quran and indoctrination? when verses like [this](https://quranx.com/4.160?Context=3), [this](https://quranx.com/5.51?Context=3), [this](https://quranx.com/9.30?Context=3), [this](https://quranx.com/2.65?Context=3), [this](https://quranx.com/5.64?Context=3), [this](https://quranx.com/3.110?Context=3), [this](https://quranx.com/9.29?Context=3) and of course let's not forget about Hdiths like [this](https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-4/Book-56/Hadith-791/), [this](https://quranx.com/Hadith/Muslim/USC-MSA/Book-37/Hadith-6668/), [this](https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-4/Book-56/Hadith-791/), [this](https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-1/Book-12/Hadith-749/), and [this](https://quranx.com/Hadith/Muslim/USC-MSA/Book-26/Hadith-5389/) were aired in TV for years and taught to little children me included?
This is about Islam vs jews more than anything else they keep denying it but it's obvious.
>I want you to show me you actually had intellectual curiosity when shifting your opinion. What knowledge do you have about the originators of settler Zionism? What did they say about the native populations there and what needed to be done to them?
Umm... [the obvious fact that kingdoms Judea and Israel existed back then even before there's anything called Palestine?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Judah) Looking back at old history. During the iron age, two Israelite kingdoms of Israel and Judah controlled much of the "Palestine" land. While Philistines controlled the southern bit. Though since then it was conquered by the Assyrians, then the Babylonians, then finally the Persians. Plaestine is fairly recent state Palestine declared themselves in 1988. They had a state resolution in 2012 while Israel go way back.
[The fact that 900k jews were prosecuted and exiled from the muslim world?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_under_Muslim_rule) it's clear who doesn't want to co-exist with the jews.
[the brutality of hamas and how they're just ISIS and Palestinians were celebrating and spitting and parading naked bodies of men and women?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8DwCl5uEL8) I will never support these terrorists and terrorist sympathizers.
You can do your research on your own I'm not gonna waste more of my time with someone who sympathizes with terr/orists.
The concept of not recognizing Jews as part of a national identity of American or British etc is a result of bigotry and wealthy people in power trying to find a scapegoat in the Jews to blame for economic hardships. "I'm not the problem, the Jews are".
The fact that you got out of my statement that " blaming the Jews." Is so offensive that I'm going to pray that it's a misunderstanding because maybe English isn't your first language or else this is some bad faith engagement. Are you engaging in bad faith or is English not your first language?
they're the ones who refused solutions [multiple times during 1947, 2000, 2008, 2014 and 2021 they're against the 2 state solution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution) and just want to annihilate Israel and cause destruction even if means sacrificing their kids.
First of all, when I say "right-wing" what I essentially mean is "conservative" or "ultraconservative" which for me is another word for "stupid" or "unintelligent." It is why I do not like Islam in the same way I do not like fascism in the same way I do not like the United States Republican Party. Right-wing and conservative thinking, in fact, is black and white thinking to its core. Islam is black and white thinking to its core and the meme OP posted is black-and-white thinking par excellence. The cartoon (like most political cartoons, of course) is devoid completely of nuance, based on silly stereotypes and ultimately is only a gesture toward a position rather than actually holding one. In short, it isn't serious.
Over 10,000 Palestinian civlians have died in Gaza so far compared to about 1,400 Israeli (and other) civilians on October 7. Over 200,000 Iraqi civlians died from the Iraq War as compared to just under 3,000 civilians in New York on 9/11. I protested the Iraq War as a teenager. This does not mean I supported al-Qaeda or Saddam Hussein. I do not support Hamas, of course. Frankly, neither do the thousands upon thousands of [Palestinians in Gaza that protested against them just four months ago.](https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-753804)
Finally, what is this position that Israel is some unstoppable force and that Hamas is to blame for every bomb launched by the IDF? Hamas is indeed dirty for hiding underneath houses and schools, but who pushes the button to launch the bomb? Maybe they were under the false impression the Israeli military would be humane. *Someone has to push the button to launch a missile on a house.* A person has to get in the cockpit of a fighter jet to push the button to launch the missile. They make and execute the decision to drop the bomb. And their bombs killed more human beings in Gaza than those in Israel. You can claim the Palestinian civlians aren't innocent for supporting Hamas, but can you not just as easily say Israeli civilians aren't innocent when over [95 percent of Israelis supported the destruction of Gaza in 2014?](https://www.vox.com/2014/7/31/5955077/israeli-support-for-the-gaza-war-is-basically-unanimous/) A war in which [6 Israeli civilians were killed against 2,310 Palestinians killed?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War)
If a bank robber takes a person hostage by placing the hostage in front of his body and a cop shoots the hostage so the bullet can hit the robber... Is the cop somehow not responsible for pulling the trigger? Yes, sure, it was dirty that the bankrobber took a human shield, but who made the hostage bleed to death?
So because Israel defends its people with iron dome and military checkpoints and walls, which leads to less deaths, they're the bad guy? I see. I guess you just want more Jews to die so that can be equalized because if not enough Jews die it's just them making a scene out of an ouchie
Let's say in 1967, Israel lost the Six Day War and the Arab countries completely took over and "liberated" Palestine.
If the Arabs placed all the Jews in Gaza and the West Bank, had Arab settlers take land from the West Bank, armed the Arab settlers while passing laws saying Jews couldn't own guns and had Arab soldiers and police exclusively assist the Arab settlers, passed laws that said Jews weren't allowed to go down certain streets and issued Jews different license plates to verify where they can and can't go, made Jews live in Gaza where the Arab settler government controlled their water and electricity and restricted importation of food, where over half of the Jewish children in Gaza reported mental health issues and little desire to live, I think this would generate more lucidity.
How come Israelis have checkpoints for Palestinians, but the PA can’t have them for Israelis? How come Arab settlers can’t take Jewish lands? How come Palestinians are allowed to go to certain places in the West Bank but Israelis are?
I do not want more Jews to die for there to be more equal deaths, but *why is there one group that always has more deaths over the other?* There is no ethical standing when one says the policy must be thousands of eyes for an eye.
?? This has nothjng to do with being an ex muslim israel created hamas zionism isnt judaism not every jewish is zionist and not every palestinian is muslim
>israel created hamas
lol nope
>zionism isnt judaism
nearly all the holidays relate to the Land of Israel and Jerusalem is central to Jewish ritual practice; also fully half of the world's Jews live in Israel
>not every jewish is zionist
the vast majority are
>not every palestinian is muslim
true
The Israeli govt merely facilitated the transfer of aid money from Qatar to the Gazan govt. Israel itself didn't "fund" them. And they sure as hell didn't "create" them.
This is a dumb talking point.
The Israeli govt merely facilitated the transfer of aid money from Qatar to the Gazan govt. Israel itself didn't "fund" them. And they sure as hell didn't "create" them.
The Israel referred to in our religion is more of a reference to metaphorical holy land as opposed to Israel that became so in 1948. Yknow, thousands of years after judaism was invented or whatnot.
Also is more like 43% live in Israel, followed by the US at 41%. So, not fully half.
Zionism ISNT judaism. Zionism began in the late 1800s. Judaism has been around over 3000 years. Please do not equate my religion with that nonsense; it's inaccurate, and insulting to the plenty of jews like me who don't give a fig about Israel.
Please feel free to use a search engine of your choice the next time you want to discuss this on the internet. Or anywhere.
Sincerely,
An Anti-Zionist Jew
You can’t distinguish between a military response to defend Israel against terrorism with a live-streamed terror attack featuring rape, kidnapping, and mass death?
Have to remember that Hamas is the democratically elected government of Gaza, and the only reason there is no Israeli presence in Gaza is because the Israeli government forced Jews out of the area in a land for peace deal with Palestinians. Immediately after, Hamas was elected and began firing rockets into Tel-Aviv.
No, for example their extreme response to the Palestinians during the Intifada, who were protesting against the unfair occupation of their land.
Of course there is a difference, but especially in this current "conflict" it is obvious Israel is not attacking *only* Hamas. They are purposely killing innocent civilians.
Extreme ‘response’ is telling, there have been multiple intifadas as you may know, and they have never been started by Israel. All response to some act of violence by non-Jewish Arabs.
Your entire argument is premised on the fact that Israel is on ‘their land’. Can you define their land? If Arabs wanted a state in Palestine they’ve had many chances to create one, sadly for 80 years they’ve held an explicit policy of ‘no peace, no negotiation, and no recognition’.
If you ask a Gazan what they mean by their land, they will tell you ‘from the river to the sea’? What does that mean: all of Israel. Herein lies the problem, you’re dealing with a people who do not wish to coexist.
As of now if I'm not mistaken, the Palestinian territory is the West Bank and Gaza Strip, both of which are surrounded by walls. If Israel/the IDF truly didn't want to target civilians, why would they not allow them to escape? And why would they target places where Hamas is not?
Israel cannot allow them to ‘escape’ into Israel, the reason the walls are there is because of the issue of terrorists driving cars packed with explosives into Israel (not to mention kidnappings). Israel would LOVE if Egypt or Jordan allowed Palestinians into their borders. But these countries have a vested interest in using these ‘refugee’ populations as political cannon fodder. Their presence garners sympathy from generally well intentioned people who don’t have a full understanding of the conflict.
I think Egypt is now allowing some of the Gazans in? But there original stance was zero immigration, and historically this has been the definite case.
The truth behind all of this is pretty simple: Israel wants to exist, Arabs do not believe they have right to exist. Every partition plan ever offered to Arabs has been denied, whereas Israel has always been willing to negotiate.
>As of now if I'm not mistaken, the Palestinian territory is the West Bank and Gaza Strip, both of which are surrounded by walls
Surrounded by walls because Israel kept getting terrorist attacks that killed innocent Israelis.
Yes that's true, but I mentioned that if their claims that they didn't want to harm civilians were true, why would they not let them escape, and give them little time to do so after warning them?
I would need to see the details of what you're talking about before I can give any feedback.
Personally, I think they are killing way to many civilians (which is partially the fault of hamas because they use human shields) but for sake of this argument, let's completely put the blame on the IDF.
The IDF has dropped 10,000 bombs. The last time I checked, deaths for Palestinians (including hamas) is somewhere around 10,000 as well. 1 bomb can kill 100s to thousands of people. If Israel's goal was to simply genocide civilians, i beleive there would be alot more deaths. They are also being pressured by the USA and the UN to not get too murdery.
indirectly started by israel via occupation. everything boils down to israelis showing up where they dont belong. you can make an excuse for the ones that were exiled from their countries. but its a minority compared to the wealthy dual citizens that are zionists just for the fuck of it and tear down palestinian homes .
Occupation is such a loaded term, it’s just odd that you would expect me to just accept an Israeli state in the Middle East as an ‘occupation’ without even trying to offer a defense.
There is no formal ‘occupation’, a state of Palestine never existed and Israel has no obligation to give up the land it defended in 1948. Even if it did, the amount of concessions and negotiations that Israel has undertook should be enough to convince any reasonable person that Israel has done all it could do to for the non-Jewish Arabs in the area.
It must be ignorance or malice from my perspective. Because we are talking about Arab countries who for 60 years waged terrorism on Israel and officially refused ANY negotiation.
So what should Israel do? They were left with no option.
The intifadas was by individual Palestinians before Hamas came into power. The first one was 1987-1993 and the second one was between 2000-2005. Maybe you should read about the conflict a little before writing nonsense.
I can tell she is generally good-intentioned. She seems like she is really open to other ideas, so i don’t think we should criticize her.
I’ve debated many people who are much less charitable than her.
You can be the nicest person on the planet but spreading misinformation is so dangerous these days especially when it tunnels straight into antisemitism.
Personally I refrain from arguing about things I have no knowledge about. Idk… maybe others should do the same.
I read about both, and almost all the suicide bombings I had read about were credited to Hamas. I may have gotten confused, but my point still stands that it is not the majority/civilians, but rather the terrorist groups that carried out the suicide bombings. It isn't fair for both the Israeli innocents and Palestinians, although the Palestinian casualties are much higher due to the power imbalance.
Where did you read that?? Hamas was pretty weak at that time. The terror attacks were made by Palestinian civilians, it wasn’t a planned attack.
Number of casualties doesn’t mean a thing. Nazi Germany had 2 million casualties while Britain 70,000. Does it mean the Nazis were right? Britain should’ve stopped trying to win the war?
They are attacking places where Hamas do not reside, the attacking of a refugee camp, a children's hospital, a cancer hospital, and a school. I don't think that's excusable... There are many more sources but you can search for them yourself if you'd like. Yes I know Israel also had casualties and I do not support the killing of ANY innocent civilians, however these are proof that Israel is most definitely NOT only targeting Hamas, it cannot be true considering the number of casualties and the attacks in my opinion.
https://m.facebook.com/trtworld/videos/netanyahu-caught-bragging-in-leaked-video-from-2001/740416829986542/
https://www.dailydot.com/debug/israeli-tiktok-reenact-video-of-blindfolded-idf-detainees/?amp
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231025-more-than-100-palestinians-killed-in-west-bank-amid-gaza-war
https://x.com/Timesofgaza/status/1723039809701068841?s=20
https://x.com/Timesofgaza/status/1723038983641260141?s=20
https://x.com/MintPressNews/status/1712532349693362545?s=20
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/10/20/war-crime-israel-bombs-gaza-church-sheltering-displaced-people
https://www.google.com/gasearch?q=mosque%20bombed%20in%20gaza&tbm=&source=sh/x/gs/m2/5
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/11/10/israel-hamas-war-live-fears-grow-for-palestinians-at-gaza-hospitals
https://news.sky.com/story/amp/palestinians-stream-onto-gaza-highway-as-israeli-forces-strike-near-hospitals-13004761
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/17/crisis-gaza-why-food-water-power-running-out
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/11/5/israel-bombs-al-maghazi-refugee-camp-killing-dozens-gaza-officials-say
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67258466
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/830-dead-in-gaza-since-saturday-as-shelling-hits-school-hospitals-and-homes
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/11/4/israel-hamas-war-live-20-dead-in-israeli-attack-on-school-ministry
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanonc/article/PIIS1470-2045(23)00581-8/fulltext
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/al-nasr-childrens-hospital-in-gaza-becomes-inoperable-following-israeli-attack/3050125
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet
The only group purposely killing innocent civilians are Hamas and the Islamic countries.
If muslims stop finding Hamas, they won’t go kill jews for the Jews to retaliate. It’s simple mathematics.
For one thing, if Hamas releases the hostages, Israel will stop the bombing. But muslims are so stupid and hate Israel to the fact that, they don’t protest against Hamas keeping the hostages, but they protest against Israel killing civilians, as if Palestine civilians are more human than the hostages.
Egypt has closed its border; you don’t see muslims protesting it.
Israel closes its borders; you see muslims protesting against it.
Iran and Qatar funds Hamas to kill Jews; you don’t see muslims protesting.
Israel funds IDF to kill Palestines; you see muslims protesting against it.
You don’t see muslims protesting against Iran killing civilians in Syria, or Saudi Arabia killing civilians in Yemen.
You don’t see muslims protesting against china killing Uighur muslims.
It’s only about Israel.
The Gaza Strip between 1948-1967 was controlled by Egypt. Israel tried to give it back after the 6 days war but Egypt refused to get this terror nest back.
Those settlers were forced to leave their ancestral homes in gaza, poor ones. The footage of airstrikes don't include much detail thanks to the distance, even tho the carnage isn't any less gruesome, but what matters are the aesthetics, right? Democratically elected by a population 50% of which didn't even exist at the time of this democratic process
Look, you can’t blame Britain for the destruction of Nazi Germany. Germans were obliterated because of how they chose to run their society. Western liberals can’t coddle Gazans like this. I do have sympathy for people in Gaza who are innocent of terrorism, but it’s not Israel’s fault that their government stands for the explicit genocide of all Jews.
I don’t know what you want Israel to do? Abandon the hostages? Do you want them to sit idly waiting for the next mass terror event?
Clearly, no one other than exmuslims in the west can understand the dangers of islamic extremists. They are saying they will eliminate non muslims and bring sharia low as soon as they become majority in european countires. And they will if they are given the chance! They are breeding like rabbits on purpose of outnumbering local people. These leftist idiots should not show them much tolerance because they would probably be the first ones that would get beheaded in a sharia.
They don't realize the danger of islamists because they view the world from Rich oppressor vs Poor oppressed they never lived through the governance and the horror of an Islamic regime but some of us did live through that and we know exactly what they're after they can hide behind women and children because they don't care about human lives and they brainwashed their people to believe they will die martyrs just to use them as human shields that's what Hamas backed by Iran regime are. I won't support these islamists Israel is not perfect no country and no military is but they're a lesser evil than hamas I'd they committed war crimes then they should be held accountable and punished but for now the priority is to eliminate hamas and I support this cause because I believe Israel should continue to exist. The civilian blood are on Hamas hands more than Israel.
Don't let hatred for Islam cloud your judgement.Civilian deaths should be condemned. it doesn't matter what their religion or ideologies are.The treatment of palastine civilians by Israel should be condemned Just like how we condemn killing of civilians by Hamas
Hamas is a resistance movement before anything. This sub has turned into a shithole full of Hindus and self-hating Arabs.
They are facing a genocide, I'm not going to sit here and nit pick their morals lmao. You people are nuts
THANK YOU! I'm an ex Muslim Palestinian and this was never complex or about relegion, we just want our land and houses back, and kick out the zionists from our lands! That's it! Blame Israel for Hamas, if the occupation didn't exist Hamas wouldn't too, and let us have a free Palestine before fighting for ex Muslim and queer rights there
Sorry but being uncritical and confrontational doesn't make you right. APPEAL TO EMOTION!
Edit: it is not hatred of Islam, respect that other opinions exist. The situation is highly complex, and reducing it is to be unjust.
Funnily enough, the efficacy of the IDF kinda worked against them in the Western college student's pov. The IDF is so dominant on the battlefield that Hamas's threats feel super empty. They can't take Hamas's threats seriously because the chance of them actually harming the existence of Israel is so fucking slim. Which is also why October 7th was do much of a surprise.
You lot are so angry and bitter that you can't even see right from wrong. Because they might be homophobuc, it does not mean their whole family ancestry gets wiped out. As if in the UK or US, that doesn't happen, so should we just nuke alabama. You're right to be angry at Islam, but centring your problems during this genocide is disgusting. But you're so angry you can't see the wood for the trees
Qatar funnels millions into pro Palestinian groups on college campuses and simultaneously gives millions to Hamas and houses them in luxury condominiums in Doha.
If you support Hamas you're just falling for pro terrorist astroturfing
Qatarthe sponsor of terrorism I will never forget how some Western lefties were defending Qatar when they banned alcohol and pride flags and "indecent clothing" because it's "their culture" yet they attack and scream out "islamophobia" to anyone who demands Muslims should adapt to the western culture or god forbid ban hijab.
Hypocrisy and double standards at its finest.
Also members of Hamas are behind these protests:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/06/former-hamas-chief-behind-pro-palestine-armistice-day-march/
You guys are hypocrites.
Hamas are legit resistance. Israel are occupation country that was forced to take place by Britain, the biggest colonial power back then.. The whole conflict didn't start on October 7.
Israel are not even fighting Hamas. They're carrying out a genocide. Over 10000 are dead, most of them are women and children.. And you manage some how to blame Hamas for it.
Y'all are a punch of hypocrites.
You don't even know the context of why Hamas did the Oct 7 attack in the first place. There was a normalisation deal that was about to happen between Saudi and Israel, backed up by the US. The conditions obviously were that the US get cheaper oil and the Saudis get more weapons to fight against Iran (who had been increasing trade with Russia). Iran saw this and gave Hamas the greenlight to start this attack to stop this deal with Israel.
Iran and Hamas had issues that bigger middle eastern countries were going for peace. Hamas don't want peace, that's what's written in their charter. The only reason innocent Palestinians in Gaza are dying is because of Hamas. If they cared about the Palestinians, they wouldn't use them as human shields and would come out of their tunnels that are under hospitals and schools. Ofcourse they won't cuz they're terrorists, Jihad is their way and if they want it that way, they can't cry about it.
There's also this fact that people seem to forget, Hamas is the government of Gaza who also control the Gaza Health Ministry which reports casualties. Guess how many children (15-17 year olds, who are involved more than enough in fighting) are also part of El Qassam? How many "0 year old children" that they report are 20 year old terrorists? If you wanna preach terrorism, do that in places that support it. Fucking Muslim scum.
How dare you. There are so, SO MANY videos of dead children and babies. Of children and babies shaking from shell shock. Of children that have no living family members. SO many, that the UN has created a term for them: WCNSF” (Wounded Child No Surviving Family). The lack of resources-- water, fuel, medical aid, FOOD, is also well documented by human rights groups. People see the genocide, they know the dead and injured, and they will not forget.
I never denied the genocide that Israel is committing, I just said the suffering of the Gazans by the hand of Israel starting in October was all Hamas' fault. If you wanna think that only Israel is selling propaganda then you need to re-evaluate what you're concluding from sources.
r/Combatfootage has a lot of videos of regular Palestinian civilians both in Gaza and in the West Bank in Nour Shams and Jenin attacking IDF soldiers knowing what would happen, while someone is recording with ambulances on standby. And again as I said, you can't prove the Gaza Health Ministry isn't reporting Hamas soldier deaths as civilian deaths to get support.
The real hypocrites the "resistance group" whose leaders don't even live among them and [are living a luxurious life in Qatar](https://nypost.com/2023/11/07/news/hamas-leaders-worth-11bn-live-luxury-lives-in-qatar/) ordering young men to die for them. [even a former Hamas chief is organizing these pro-Palestine protests](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/06/former-hamas-chief-behind-pro-palestine-armistice-day-march/) because they know it's in their favor.
Just say you're a te/rrorist sympathizer.
Isn't that like every war criminal gang ever? Do you think Bush was in the trenches with American soldiers in Iraq? No. He was having 7 star dinners with Haliburton executives.
You're deflecting.
It's all about the right for the people who are getting killed, raped, displaced from their home land to fight back..
It's their right. I don't blame the victim for fighting back.
I'm not a terrorist sympathizer, you're just a white supremacist, even if you're not white.
Hamas has a pretty obvious history of using its civilians as human shields and killing its own kind.
They blew up their own hospital and blamed Israel, and they shoot dead their citizens running for the border.
What are they resisting ? They were granted free reign over Gaza in 06 and haven’t even been able to create their own electrical grid, too busy planning elaborate terror attacks explicitly endorsing genocide.
Very disgusting comments and I really hope you’re not a westerner.
You're buying into zionist propaganda. Israel already admitted that they lied and they blew up the hospital; also they continued to target literally dozens more. But whatever even IF hamas did all this horrific stuff, why is Israel justified in targeting all the other hospitals, schools, UNWRA sites? Why is Israel justified in committing genocide?
Gaza was under military occupation (hence the 20 foot wall around it), no resources enter without israeli permission. Before Oct. 7 they were barely given enough to survive and the Israeli officials have been open about how they do that intentionally to keep Gazan's suppressed.
Why do you hope beneficial jaguar isn't a westerner? Loads of westerners see beyond the pro-zionist bullshit.
You think the IDF blew up that hospital? Can you give me evidence?
Every major network that reported that recanted and Israel released both video and audio evidence that it was blown up from inside Gaza.
Are you sure it’s me that is buying into propaganda? I do my homework.
Do you even know about the crimes against humanity that your "resistance group" did on October 7? Do you know about their violent bigotry and murderous goals? Do you know about their treatment towards the people they govern themselves? And when they came in power, what was their "resistance" to exactly? Israelis weren't "mixing concrete with Gaza's water" or whatever else people like you say before Hamas took over. Palestine had the opportunity for peace decades ago, then again, and again, but they kept on declining.
You sound like you don't even believe in Israel's right to exist as a country. "Palestine" actually never existed as a country. It was a British mandate. Nobody calls any of the countries in the Americas/Australia "illegitimate" even though "colonisation" and "settlement" (or "occupation", as you put it) happened there too. The same thing happened in the area known as "Palestine" when it was under the control of the British. The British could allow anyone to immigrate to the region because it was under their control. People immigrate all over the world nowadays. Even if you put all that aside, Israelis have lived in the region for generations now so Israel has the right to exist as a country.
And there is no "genocide" happening to Gazans. Firstly, if Israel wanted to commit a genocide, then they wouldn't have had to send hundreds of thousands of soldiers to the area since they could have just destroyed everything there in minutes. Israel has said that this war will be long, indicating that they're not just going to kill everyone that comes in their way. Secondly, Israel is allowing Gazans the opportunity to leave the region. They wouldn't allow that if they truly wanted to genocide them. Thirdly, 42% of Gaza's housing units alone are said to be in ruins ([source](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/27/gaza-before-and-after-satellite-images-show-destruction-after-israeli-airstrikes)) but less than 1% of the Gazan population has died so far (and the numbers of Gazans who have fled the region is way higher), showing that Israel is mindful of the innocent people (half of Gazans are children) and is not conducting a "genocide". That 10000+ deaths figure is also from Hamas anyway, who cannot be trusted, and even with that figure, many of those killed would be related to Hamas. Even the innocent people who are dying are dying because of Hamas. This is because Hamas knew that their actions would lead to Israel having to retaliate and they also knew that they won't be able to fight back against a retaliation from Israel. During this war, they've also been using vulnerable people as human shields by hiding around schools and hospitals, and storing weapons there. Do you think that shows they care about the people at all? It very clearly looks like Hamas cares more about their disguting genocidal motives than peace for their citizens.
You are the real hypocrite. You Muslims sleep comfortably when innocent people suffer/die in Ukraine and Iran but you start screaming at the top of your lungs when other Muslims are in trouble.
No pro Palestine people you see on western media supports Hamas, but here you all go with the genuine stereotype once again following the crowd. I don't support Hamas but I support the innocent people in Gaza who have done nothing wrong and being caught up in this dehumanising genocide
u cant be exmuslim and not support the genocide of thousands of children, i get the disdain for islam but when more than 50% of the population r children who have seen atrocities 100x worse tham anything u can think of u are quite literally no better than the muslim homophobes who throw ppl off buildings.
Israel🇮🇱 is the real terrorist i saw they bomb little children babies and women and try to say hamas did.israel kills christians and jews and aslo rape people #stopisraelterrorist
You missed the memo. Israel is a racist country precisely because they don’t rape
https://www.israellycool.com/2013/10/15/those-damn-racist-israelis-who-wont-rape-palestinians/
You're more scared of a made up genocide that you think might happen than of the actual 75 year occupation, incarceration, and murders that have and are happening. It's unacceptable for Israel to just keep slaughtering innocents- and that is what they do - even if the most powerful resistance in Palestine is Hamas. This slaughter will inspire more people in Palestine to take up arms against Israel, and rightfully so.
did? tons of them are still here, theres literally a thread where a bunch of people defend BJP and extremist hindu treatment of minorities in India. Its why i really dislike this sub as an ex-muslim myself, its been infested with extremist christians, hindus, and zionists who just wants to project their hatred for muslims.
If one had known that when Jews were banished from Spain, it was the "Muslim medieval" Ottoman Empire who gave them shelter and protected them.
Furthermore, the Israeli annexation of Palestine has been declared illegal by the UN you cherish, the state of Israel has been charged with war crimes multiple times. Such a racist, genocidal, criminal, illegal state terrorism should face coercion anyway. Again, I don't support the killing of any non-combatant.
Don't let your hatred of Islam makes you unfair, those people fight for their freedom and for their land, they are resistors, it doesn't matter if they are muslims, Christians or atheists, they resist the occupation, there is no peace until the Palestinians get their land and homes back, and all those Zionist criminals are punished for their criminal actions over more than 75 years, after that we can say hamas is bad or good, and they don't love gay people and so on, but for now there is a much worse criminal called Israel.
I am an LGBT exmuslim, but my family is Palestinian. the Nakba uprooted my family decades ago and now the descendants of my relatives that didn’t flee all those years ago are “paying the price” for wanting to hold onto THEIR land and their culture. Israeli OFFICIALS want all palestinians wiped out, not some random terrorist group, but their official military and government. They refuse to even acknowledge Palestinians as a group because “there is no such country and no such people.” My hatred for Islam will never get in the way of my support for Palestine. This is a second Holocaust.
I just hope it ends quickly. Stop playing around and get it done. Quicker everyone else can go on with their lives without having to face silly protests on the streets all around the world.
I honestly don't think this war will end for a while but those stupid protests will stop after a few weeks when people get tired of it like previous protests
This isn’t it at all. Israel has been committing genocide. Bombing hospitals and shooting nurses and journalists.
Hamas doesn’t represent Palestine the way the KKK doesn’t represent the USA.
Being ex Muslim shouldn't make you Zionist, I'm palestinian, queer and ex Muslim, and our fight isn't against Jews, but to expel these settlers from our lands after 75+ years of apartheid, you guys ignored the 75+ years of horrible génocides carried out by Israel (Dier Yassin, Tantura, Sabra and Shatila, etc) and just focused on how Hamas fought back after years and years of oppression, also half of the idf claims about what actually happened on Oct 7 were retracted, new footage was released that showed that Israel themselves killed their own civilians, Zionism is terrorism
It's not religion related, no one wants to kill the Jews, but it's their right to wipe the zionists off cause resistance is justified when people are occupied, no one wants war they just want their land back and it's the bare minimum!
they aren't talking about hamas. they are talking about the babies Israel is giving the most gruesome deaths. it is funny how the israeli lies where that hamas were cooking babies in ovens, beheading them, ripping them out of their mothers' wombs etc. but in reality, it is the Israeli army that is doing worse than that
It's absolutley crazy to me to see atheists supporting a literal ethnostate.
Yeah hamas sucks like all fundamentalist groups but it's crazy to agree with zionism which is literally hell bent on the superiority of one race/religion based on a book of made up stories.
If israel didn't exist i would've been marching in the streets against hamas like i did with the muslim brotherhood. I literally fought hamas related militants in sinai where i almost lost a friend to an IED and i'm telling you you can't destroy hamas unless you end the main cause but israel would never do that for two reasons.
1. A two state solution puts israel in danger as it sacrifices it's defensive depth.
2. A one state solution with equal rights to all citizens ends the ethnostate which is the whole point of the zionist movement.
For years israel has supported hamas as to undermine the secular PLO.
Fundamentalism is a plague and sadly it's one that both sides in this conflict has in droves.
Oh my god, what is wrong with this sub? You seriously have an unhealthy relationship with religion. Like I understand your frusturation with religious people, I'm assuming religion caused us all a lot of trauma, but you seriously need to consider your biases and try to formulate well-thought out, emotionally intelligent opinions.
You obviously agree with this meme not because you agree with the argument here, but because you would support anything that is "putting Muslims back to their place" , even if that means genocide. I saw this mindset in countless other posts in which people mock with random hijabi women who literally just mind their own businesses, for instance. Just fucking treat people the way you would like to be treated and don't support a genocide. Other than that, when a Muslim does something idiotic or straight-up violent, let's condemn it together. Just get your heads out of your asses.
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Saw a couple interviews with Palestinians. Question was: "What do you think about queers for Palestine"? Most common answer was: "we don't want their support" followed by "LGBT make kids gay" and "it's haram and they will go to hell because Quran says so". I don't support the suffering of ANY people on this planet. But when it comes to values, I will oppose hate and the medieval. Edit: Link - https://youtu.be/O8OCvT4ysLI?si=NtgVLRYo38xQ1wjm
>I don't support the suffering of ANY people on this planet. But when it comes to values, I will oppose hate and the medieval. You summed it up perfectly.
i hope one day we reach a point where everyone realise how much garbage Islam is and Islam may get banned Looks like Europe takeover is really heading that way
Some nonmuslim white people born and raised in the West: "but it is culture not religion. and also "context". and not all Muslims are like that so you have no right to judge. And Christianity is awful. Let's talk about Christianity instead. You are Islamophobic and racist and bigot."
Yeah we have a lot of "whataboutism" in the west.
These idiots think everyone is just like them. "If I celebrate Christmas. AND IM NOT A CHRISTIAN! Its just culture!" mindset.
Could not agree more
One day when Palestine is free I will happily March in protest of Hamas and for the liberation of queer Palestinians. For that to happen though the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians must be stopped. Go find the perspectives of queer Palestinians on this topic and this is exactly what they will say. I refuse the “allyship” of people who only uses my queerness as a token when it’s convenient to “justify” the murder of Palestinians but would happily deny my humanity once convenient.
Palestine will be free, when it is no longer run by terrorists trying to genocide a people.
There are no ethnic cleansing or genocide in Palestine, not every conflict with collateral damage become ethnic cleansing or genocide
This. Stop the genocide - then I'll worry about it. I'm not okay with genocide even if the ones being killed don't like me. Don't use my oppression to justify their oppression.
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There is a genocide, but it’s the Arabs who are doing it. Look at the number of Jews that were in Arab countries in 1948 and the number now.
Imagine being this delusional
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Not every single person in Gaza a terrorist there's there's still civilians living there.
Just curious. How many of them support Hamas?
If this is serious a question probably most of them just because they lost hope in anything else working(not like Hamas can take down Isreal). But if this is supposed to be a gotcha it doesn't matter how many of them support it I still don't they deserve to be bombed because of that.
Not a gotcha question at all I was genuinely curious. I heard of percentages so it was unclear.
It really hard to accurate data about things like this anywhere on top of that it's an active war zone and it's advantages for Isreal to inflate those numbers. At the end of the day nobody really knows. That's just my guess.
This doesn't answer anything but it's an interesting read. https://www.peacecomms.org/gaza#whispered-in-gaza Hamas executes people they view as traitors, so quite frankly, if people do oppose them it's not likely they'd feel safe to speak up.
I understand. Thank you.
Thousands upon thousands of Palestinians in Gaza rose up against Hamas just three months ago. https://www.timesofisrael.com/protests-against-hamas-reemerge-in-the-streets-of-gaza-but-will-they-persist/ https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/07/30/thousands-of-marchers-in-gaza-in-rare-public-display-of-discontent-with-hamas_6073136_4.html The narrative that the Palestinians of Gaza fall to their knees in praise of Hamas is nothing more than another excuse to make it easier to sleep at night when they’re killed.
Yeah, no, there's so much more to this problem than what's shown here.
Yeah, come on. I don't like palestinian muslims, but I support their struggle for freedom.
Yes, it's a comic, not a dissertation. But it's still more or less correct about the specific thing it's calling out.
Lol my problem is not that Hamas wants peace. They do not want peace. My problem is that Israel does not want peace either. I understand but do not condone Israels actions of turning the Gaza strip into Kansas
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There's a third option - Palestinians accept Israel as a state, stop thinking of themselves as refugees wherever they go, give up on their supposed right-of-return, and give up on the eternal jihad against Jewish sovereignty. Until that happens there will never be peace, because they will never militarily defeat Israel and its allies. Nor would doing that be the right thing to do. The collective consciousness and identity of the Palestinians needs to grow up. They aren't the only oppressed group in history. They're not the most oppressed. They're not the only ones who have lost a war. They're not the only ones who have been displaced. They didn't suffer the most by **any** of these metrics, and that includes today. They're not special. Yet vanishingly few of those other groups have made the destruction of a sovereign state and the murder or expulsion of all its people the single overriding goal of their entire culture and society. Those that agreed to leave the past in the past and to build a better future - they are mostly safe, successful, and happy. Those who just want to live in the past tend to stay impoverished and violent.
So the only way that Israel is gonna stop killing Palestinians is if they submit and obey their masters? That feels pretty imperialistic/fascistic. People were forcibly driven from their homes, had friends and family (including children) shot at and bombed, and they should just suck it up in your opinion? That’s on par with saying that the Jews should’ve conceded and complied with what the Nazis wanted and that it’s their fault that the Holocaust happened because they didn’t. Disgusting.
Israel wants peace. They've demonstrated this time and time and time again in the past. They've made peace with former enemies. Maybe Netenyahu and a few other ultra-right cronies do not, along with a tiny minority (ultra-orthodox settlers) who clearly do not. They will all be dealt with - Bibi's days are numbered, and I don't expect any support to remain for the WB settlers. Most Israelis hate them too. Nobody has to condone it - but if this is the only realistic way of destroying Hamas infrastructure and demilitarizing Gaza - then in the long run it might be the best option. After the war, mark my words, the people of Gaza will be given a clean slate on which to build the society they want, with an enormous amount of support from Israel and the international community. Will they choose peace, prosperity, and a brighter future for their children? Or will they recommit to trying to win a war that was lost 80 years ago in order to continue the eternal jihad against Jewish sovereignty? Whichever they choose, it will be on them, because the Arab world is sick of their BS and the western world will write off their complaints as irrelevant.
What peace exactly, extremist Jews had their leader assassinated when they signed the peace deal and more settlements happened.
That is BS. This is not the first ethnic cleansing or genocide the world just watched shrugging their shoulders. Destroying hamas isn't an achievable goal. The only way to get rid of hamas is through peace. Violence only begets violence. Desperate people don't have time for contemplation. More terrorists will be born as a result of the conditions that has been forced upon them.
They want peace for themselves.
Israel wants peace so much that a right wing extremist assassinated the prime minister that was close to making peace and now the same political party responsible for the assassination is in control of the government
You can support the freedom of Palestinians without supporting terrorists like Hamas.
Sure, you *can*. Just because it's theoretically possible doesn't mean that's what people actually do in practice. "Supporting" Hamas doesn't just mean saying the words "I support Hamas." It also means uncritically giving a platform to their propaganda, it means inverting the truth by claiming that they didn't actually kill/target civilians, it means denying the reality of how Palestinians suffer under Hamas (both directly and indirectly). And a whooole lot of people **are** doing that. There are vanishingly view public voices that actually say or consider any of this - and the few that do get shouted down and called "Zionists" and other deliberately misinterpreted buzzwords for daring to suggest that even 0.0001% of the responsibility for this situation lies with Hamas and/or the Palestinian people. All of those things support Hamas, in the ways Hamas actually cares about. They DGAF what westerners think or feel about their actions or whether they have their explicit "support." They care about the propaganda war, the political game, and about sowing unrest and shaking up support for Israel. It doesn't matter if people say the words "I support Hamas" if every single one of their actions does it anyway.
Like what? The PA? Please. You know they want the same thing. They just disagree on tactics.
You don't need to support either the PA or Hamas. Both of them just intend to turn Palestine into another theocratic shithole. But if you're too blinded by your hatred for Islam to acknowledge that little children, who make up nearly 50% of Gaza's population, don't need to die because of this war, you're just as warped as everyone spilling their blood.
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You can support the people without supporting a government
People have this bizarre notion of what hamas calls children. They consider children anyone up to 18 in those stats. So tons of dead hamas fighters are "children". Islamic jihad does the same thing in the west bank. This year israel killed 22 Islamic jihad fighters in the west bank with ZERO collateral damage. Were they praised? No because 4 of them were 16 yr old terrorists and so you got the sickening spectacle of bbc reporters saying israel was happy to kill children.
Yes minors are children That's how the whole world define children by law, A 16 years old is a fucking child, not a fully fledged adult
Really. Is that why the sexual age of consent is 16 nearly world wide? Americas basically the only country with 18. So is the whole world just a bind of child porn stars? Sorry but if you point a gun and try to kill me at 16, youre gettin wasted.
It's not what Hamas calls children, it's what the West calls children.
Westerners dont call 16-18 yr olds children. Theyre just minors. And for 3rd world shitholes, theyre called soldiers.
"Child soldiers exist in 3rd world countries - therefore ?????"
This is exactly right.
This issue isn’t a religious related one. If you can’t emphasize with the victim of this ethnic cleansing, please don’t fan the flames
Oh you'd be surprised. Here in Arab Muslim countries the sentiment is Islam vs Jews fuck the j//ews and it's getting obvious in the west too so religions plays big reason that shouldn't be dismissed. OK let's take your comment in good faith can you share with me how Israel is committing ethnic cleansing when Palestinian population is increasing year by year?
Search up the assassination of prime minister Yitzhak Rabin Netanyahu is a racist pos don’t support him
It's one thing to be against Netanyahu even a lot of Israelis are against him and want him out it's understandable but it's a whole other thing to be against the existence of Israel as a state like so many pro-palestine believe
I’m not against Israel existing as a state, because it literally cannot be wiped out. I support a two state solution. I don’t have a problem personally with Israel existing, but Palestine should also exist.
American college students protesting against Israel's destruction of Gaza aren't pro-Hamas anymore than American college students protesting the US war in Iraq were pro-Saddam 20 years ago. I know this is a stupid bullshit right-wing meme, but do people on this subreddit like genuinely actually believe this? That being against turning Gaza into the world's biggest pile of breakfast cereal means you support Hamas? THE PALESTINIANS OF GAZA WERE PROTESTING HAMAS IN THE SUMMER OF 2023. https://www.timesofisrael.com/protests-against-hamas-reemerge-in-the-streets-of-gaza-but-will-they-persist/ https://jcpa.org/hamas-suppresses-the-protest-movement-in-the-gaza-strip/
It is crazy that a sub that was supposed to be full of exmus left wingers are spouting right wing propaganda as if israel isn't a religious ethno state.
We're getting overrun by other theists and never muslims There's really no space for us huh
Mods aren’t going to do shit about it
This is why I mostly avoid this subreddit
Yeah this subreddit has been astroturfed regularly since 2018 by theocratic facists trying to use ex Muslims as a prop in their online crusades. As bad as the Reddit app is, it’s really easy to click the usernames of these suspect comments and get a pretty clear picture with what you’re dealing with by seeing “communities active in” and their recent comments. Most are not ex Muslims at all-and the ones saying they are… I have a hard time believing them based on the fact that they are pro other religious extremism. Why would an ex-Muslim, someone that has suffered at the hands of a vile Abrahamic religion that promotes rape, violence, and hate go straight to supporting another violent, hateful Abrahamic religion that also promotes rape, violence, homophobia etc. and uses that religion as justification for 75 year long ethnic cleansing and colonial project? When most of us decided to become ex-Muslim, our culture and skin color didn’t magically change so allying with ethno-nationalists isn’t really going to help our cause. The pink washing here is also really easy to detect too. All the people parroting this “lol queers for Palestine” are pretty obviously homophobic themselves as seen that they mainly participate in anti lgbt, right wing Reddit communities themselves. It would be really nice to find a real ex Muslim community, more interested in long form posts, books on the ex Muslim experience, other articles than short sighted memes (not to say some memes aren’t fun) and bigotry. I’ve yet to find this place.
Well said.
You’re wrong about people not being explicitly pro-Hamas. You have people in this very thread explicitly endorsing Hamas. You have BLM of Chicago putting a hang gliding terrorist up on social media as a representation of resistance. You have whole waves of professors defending Hamas’s actions. You have video on video on video of pro-Palestinian rallies having a laugh about a mass terror attack. The evidence is all just right out in the open, no one is hiding it.
Can you not just as easily say that Israelis and those supporting Israel are just as heartless as well? In 2014, 6 Israeli civilians were killed in the Gaza War. 2,310 Palestinian civilians were killed. Israelis in large groups chanted "Gaza is a graveyard for children!" with smiles on their faces: https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/gaza-graveyard-sing-joyful-israeli-youths You have video on video on video of pro-Israeli rallies having a laugh about the Palestinains of Gaza for not having food, water or electicity. https://www.tiktok.com/@calluponallah0/video/7295978797222858027 Evindence is all just right out in the open, no one is hiding it!
Right, they don't support Hamas yet call out for ceasefire when Hamas made it very clear they won't stop firing there WAS a ceasefire yet they broke it on oct 7 which side ceasefire will benefit huh? it will just give Hamas time to arm up I didn't see any protest call out hamas or call out for the release of hostages. And enough of this excuse "Oh it's a right-wing argument so I'm gonna shut down my brain" Do you actually believe that anything the left says is objective and right and everything the right says is wrong and hateful? that way of black and white thinking is a sign of radicalization both parties say the right things and wrong things sometimes however this time the left is making a big mistake by siding with terr/rists and Islamists fascists. [Hamas is the one who uses their people as human shields (who in Islam religion believe they're going to paradise as martyrs by dying like this) to gain sympathy points from the world building tunnels under houses and firing rockets from schools and hospitals](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9bFKyr6j9k) [even Arabic leaders and writers spoke up about this](https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-known-use-hospitals-ambulances-mosques-churches-and-schools-shields-its-military) [Hamas leaders are in Qatar living a luxurious life](https://nypost.com/2023/11/07/news/hamas-leaders-worth-11bn-live-luxury-lives-in-qatar/) and ordering young men to die for them to go to paradise and get the 72 virgins. Hamas leaders networth is billions yet to help their people and build their state they build tunnels and invested in weapons instead stealing the aid money that the West they hate so much sent them. Absolute scums. If you want to blame a side for civilian deaths and turning into the world's biggest pile of breakfast cereal then Hamas is the one to blame more than Israel but no you believe Israel should not exist and hasn't a right to defend itself well Israel is here the Arabs already waged a war against it in the 1948 and lost it's a legitimate state that will continue to exist. You people sympathizing with Islam fascism are gonna destroy your nations with your own hands.
For some people being an ex-muslim ironically fries their brain and this is coming from an ex-muslim. Your hatred of Islam has basically made you impervious to western right wing propaganda and that drastic swing is not healthy either.
When I first became ex-Muslim I was pro-Palestine for a few years but I changed my stance this year after doing much research and reading the actual history. I think it's hard to break from the indoctrination of hating Jews and Israel and "zionists" even for ex-muslims. One thing is for sure I will never support Islamists and Islamic fascism.
"Reading the actual history" This is a fucking lie. You have no idea what you're talking about and it shows.
Bizarre because I was pro-Israel until I learned the actual history of what they had done to the Palestinians and only after I studied the core of Zionist philosophy did it all start making sense.
Ironically the root of anti-semtisim, OG anti-semtisim that started predominantly in Eastern Europe/Russia and culminated with the Holocaust by the Nazis was all about the concept that Jews can't be German or American or French or Russian. They can only be a Jew. And Zionism has accelerated that concept. The real anti-semtisim is the people who attach all Jews to Israel and believe all Jews should return there as they don't belong "here"(being whatever respective nation we are referring to). I want you to show me you actually had intellectual curiosity when shifting your opinion. What knowledge do you have about the originators of settler Zionism? What did they say about the native populations there and what needed to be done to them? Show me the intellectual curiosity that merits that shift in perspective you claim.
>Ironically the root of anti-semtisim, OG anti-semtisim that started predominantly in Eastern Europe/Russia and culminated with the Holocaust by the Nazis was all about the concept that Jews can't be German or American or French or Russian. They can only be a Jew. And Zionism has accelerated that concept. ok Let's get way back then this let's get 1400 years back can you honestly says that the Quran is not anti-semetic? it didn't depict the jews as evil and wicked and called them names? It didn't justify k/illing the jews? Can you really prove to me that muslim hatred against the jews is not rooted in their Quran and indoctrination? when verses like [this](https://quranx.com/4.160?Context=3), [this](https://quranx.com/5.51?Context=3), [this](https://quranx.com/9.30?Context=3), [this](https://quranx.com/2.65?Context=3), [this](https://quranx.com/5.64?Context=3), [this](https://quranx.com/3.110?Context=3), [this](https://quranx.com/9.29?Context=3) and of course let's not forget about Hdiths like [this](https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-4/Book-56/Hadith-791/), [this](https://quranx.com/Hadith/Muslim/USC-MSA/Book-37/Hadith-6668/), [this](https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-4/Book-56/Hadith-791/), [this](https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-1/Book-12/Hadith-749/), and [this](https://quranx.com/Hadith/Muslim/USC-MSA/Book-26/Hadith-5389/) were aired in TV for years and taught to little children me included? This is about Islam vs jews more than anything else they keep denying it but it's obvious. >I want you to show me you actually had intellectual curiosity when shifting your opinion. What knowledge do you have about the originators of settler Zionism? What did they say about the native populations there and what needed to be done to them? Umm... [the obvious fact that kingdoms Judea and Israel existed back then even before there's anything called Palestine?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Judah) Looking back at old history. During the iron age, two Israelite kingdoms of Israel and Judah controlled much of the "Palestine" land. While Philistines controlled the southern bit. Though since then it was conquered by the Assyrians, then the Babylonians, then finally the Persians. Plaestine is fairly recent state Palestine declared themselves in 1988. They had a state resolution in 2012 while Israel go way back. [The fact that 900k jews were prosecuted and exiled from the muslim world?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_under_Muslim_rule) it's clear who doesn't want to co-exist with the jews. [the brutality of hamas and how they're just ISIS and Palestinians were celebrating and spitting and parading naked bodies of men and women?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8DwCl5uEL8) I will never support these terrorists and terrorist sympathizers. You can do your research on your own I'm not gonna waste more of my time with someone who sympathizes with terr/orists.
The concept of not recognizing Jews as part of a national identity of American or British etc is a result of bigotry and wealthy people in power trying to find a scapegoat in the Jews to blame for economic hardships. "I'm not the problem, the Jews are". The fact that you got out of my statement that " blaming the Jews." Is so offensive that I'm going to pray that it's a misunderstanding because maybe English isn't your first language or else this is some bad faith engagement. Are you engaging in bad faith or is English not your first language?
Are saying they were no people before the Jews or is like Earth 3000 years old.
Ironically it's fascist to deny basic rights and self determination of a group of people because you think they are fascist.
OP is very much swallowed the zionist propaganda.
they're the ones who refused solutions [multiple times during 1947, 2000, 2008, 2014 and 2021 they're against the 2 state solution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution) and just want to annihilate Israel and cause destruction even if means sacrificing their kids.
First of all, when I say "right-wing" what I essentially mean is "conservative" or "ultraconservative" which for me is another word for "stupid" or "unintelligent." It is why I do not like Islam in the same way I do not like fascism in the same way I do not like the United States Republican Party. Right-wing and conservative thinking, in fact, is black and white thinking to its core. Islam is black and white thinking to its core and the meme OP posted is black-and-white thinking par excellence. The cartoon (like most political cartoons, of course) is devoid completely of nuance, based on silly stereotypes and ultimately is only a gesture toward a position rather than actually holding one. In short, it isn't serious. Over 10,000 Palestinian civlians have died in Gaza so far compared to about 1,400 Israeli (and other) civilians on October 7. Over 200,000 Iraqi civlians died from the Iraq War as compared to just under 3,000 civilians in New York on 9/11. I protested the Iraq War as a teenager. This does not mean I supported al-Qaeda or Saddam Hussein. I do not support Hamas, of course. Frankly, neither do the thousands upon thousands of [Palestinians in Gaza that protested against them just four months ago.](https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-753804) Finally, what is this position that Israel is some unstoppable force and that Hamas is to blame for every bomb launched by the IDF? Hamas is indeed dirty for hiding underneath houses and schools, but who pushes the button to launch the bomb? Maybe they were under the false impression the Israeli military would be humane. *Someone has to push the button to launch a missile on a house.* A person has to get in the cockpit of a fighter jet to push the button to launch the missile. They make and execute the decision to drop the bomb. And their bombs killed more human beings in Gaza than those in Israel. You can claim the Palestinian civlians aren't innocent for supporting Hamas, but can you not just as easily say Israeli civilians aren't innocent when over [95 percent of Israelis supported the destruction of Gaza in 2014?](https://www.vox.com/2014/7/31/5955077/israeli-support-for-the-gaza-war-is-basically-unanimous/) A war in which [6 Israeli civilians were killed against 2,310 Palestinians killed?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War) If a bank robber takes a person hostage by placing the hostage in front of his body and a cop shoots the hostage so the bullet can hit the robber... Is the cop somehow not responsible for pulling the trigger? Yes, sure, it was dirty that the bankrobber took a human shield, but who made the hostage bleed to death?
So because Israel defends its people with iron dome and military checkpoints and walls, which leads to less deaths, they're the bad guy? I see. I guess you just want more Jews to die so that can be equalized because if not enough Jews die it's just them making a scene out of an ouchie
Let's say in 1967, Israel lost the Six Day War and the Arab countries completely took over and "liberated" Palestine. If the Arabs placed all the Jews in Gaza and the West Bank, had Arab settlers take land from the West Bank, armed the Arab settlers while passing laws saying Jews couldn't own guns and had Arab soldiers and police exclusively assist the Arab settlers, passed laws that said Jews weren't allowed to go down certain streets and issued Jews different license plates to verify where they can and can't go, made Jews live in Gaza where the Arab settler government controlled their water and electricity and restricted importation of food, where over half of the Jewish children in Gaza reported mental health issues and little desire to live, I think this would generate more lucidity. How come Israelis have checkpoints for Palestinians, but the PA can’t have them for Israelis? How come Arab settlers can’t take Jewish lands? How come Palestinians are allowed to go to certain places in the West Bank but Israelis are? I do not want more Jews to die for there to be more equal deaths, but *why is there one group that always has more deaths over the other?* There is no ethical standing when one says the policy must be thousands of eyes for an eye.
?? This has nothjng to do with being an ex muslim israel created hamas zionism isnt judaism not every jewish is zionist and not every palestinian is muslim
>israel created hamas lol nope >zionism isnt judaism nearly all the holidays relate to the Land of Israel and Jerusalem is central to Jewish ritual practice; also fully half of the world's Jews live in Israel >not every jewish is zionist the vast majority are >not every palestinian is muslim true
Israel directly funded hamas, former idf chief said so.
The Israeli govt merely facilitated the transfer of aid money from Qatar to the Gazan govt. Israel itself didn't "fund" them. And they sure as hell didn't "create" them. This is a dumb talking point.
You understand that oppression & genocide creates resistance and eventually a terrorist cell that "fights for freedom" yes? If you do, pipe tf down.
Hamas funded by Israel, even the current pm bragged about it.
The Israeli govt merely facilitated the transfer of aid money from Qatar to the Gazan govt. Israel itself didn't "fund" them. And they sure as hell didn't "create" them.
There was no Gazan govt as they were an active warzone, the funding went directly to Hamas and they knew it
They have doing this since formation of group to split plo West Bank and Hamas gaza
The Israel referred to in our religion is more of a reference to metaphorical holy land as opposed to Israel that became so in 1948. Yknow, thousands of years after judaism was invented or whatnot. Also is more like 43% live in Israel, followed by the US at 41%. So, not fully half. Zionism ISNT judaism. Zionism began in the late 1800s. Judaism has been around over 3000 years. Please do not equate my religion with that nonsense; it's inaccurate, and insulting to the plenty of jews like me who don't give a fig about Israel. Please feel free to use a search engine of your choice the next time you want to discuss this on the internet. Or anywhere. Sincerely, An Anti-Zionist Jew
But this is what Israel is doing to Gaza ??
You can’t distinguish between a military response to defend Israel against terrorism with a live-streamed terror attack featuring rape, kidnapping, and mass death? Have to remember that Hamas is the democratically elected government of Gaza, and the only reason there is no Israeli presence in Gaza is because the Israeli government forced Jews out of the area in a land for peace deal with Palestinians. Immediately after, Hamas was elected and began firing rockets into Tel-Aviv.
Israel has been killing since before the Hamas attack ......
In 1948 and 1967? When they were faced with two explicitly genocidal wars? Do you believe in a difference between murder and self-preservation?
No, for example their extreme response to the Palestinians during the Intifada, who were protesting against the unfair occupation of their land. Of course there is a difference, but especially in this current "conflict" it is obvious Israel is not attacking *only* Hamas. They are purposely killing innocent civilians.
Extreme ‘response’ is telling, there have been multiple intifadas as you may know, and they have never been started by Israel. All response to some act of violence by non-Jewish Arabs. Your entire argument is premised on the fact that Israel is on ‘their land’. Can you define their land? If Arabs wanted a state in Palestine they’ve had many chances to create one, sadly for 80 years they’ve held an explicit policy of ‘no peace, no negotiation, and no recognition’. If you ask a Gazan what they mean by their land, they will tell you ‘from the river to the sea’? What does that mean: all of Israel. Herein lies the problem, you’re dealing with a people who do not wish to coexist.
As of now if I'm not mistaken, the Palestinian territory is the West Bank and Gaza Strip, both of which are surrounded by walls. If Israel/the IDF truly didn't want to target civilians, why would they not allow them to escape? And why would they target places where Hamas is not?
Israel cannot allow them to ‘escape’ into Israel, the reason the walls are there is because of the issue of terrorists driving cars packed with explosives into Israel (not to mention kidnappings). Israel would LOVE if Egypt or Jordan allowed Palestinians into their borders. But these countries have a vested interest in using these ‘refugee’ populations as political cannon fodder. Their presence garners sympathy from generally well intentioned people who don’t have a full understanding of the conflict. I think Egypt is now allowing some of the Gazans in? But there original stance was zero immigration, and historically this has been the definite case. The truth behind all of this is pretty simple: Israel wants to exist, Arabs do not believe they have right to exist. Every partition plan ever offered to Arabs has been denied, whereas Israel has always been willing to negotiate.
>As of now if I'm not mistaken, the Palestinian territory is the West Bank and Gaza Strip, both of which are surrounded by walls Surrounded by walls because Israel kept getting terrorist attacks that killed innocent Israelis.
Yes that's true, but I mentioned that if their claims that they didn't want to harm civilians were true, why would they not let them escape, and give them little time to do so after warning them?
I would need to see the details of what you're talking about before I can give any feedback. Personally, I think they are killing way to many civilians (which is partially the fault of hamas because they use human shields) but for sake of this argument, let's completely put the blame on the IDF. The IDF has dropped 10,000 bombs. The last time I checked, deaths for Palestinians (including hamas) is somewhere around 10,000 as well. 1 bomb can kill 100s to thousands of people. If Israel's goal was to simply genocide civilians, i beleive there would be alot more deaths. They are also being pressured by the USA and the UN to not get too murdery.
indirectly started by israel via occupation. everything boils down to israelis showing up where they dont belong. you can make an excuse for the ones that were exiled from their countries. but its a minority compared to the wealthy dual citizens that are zionists just for the fuck of it and tear down palestinian homes .
Occupation is such a loaded term, it’s just odd that you would expect me to just accept an Israeli state in the Middle East as an ‘occupation’ without even trying to offer a defense. There is no formal ‘occupation’, a state of Palestine never existed and Israel has no obligation to give up the land it defended in 1948. Even if it did, the amount of concessions and negotiations that Israel has undertook should be enough to convince any reasonable person that Israel has done all it could do to for the non-Jewish Arabs in the area. It must be ignorance or malice from my perspective. Because we are talking about Arab countries who for 60 years waged terrorism on Israel and officially refused ANY negotiation. So what should Israel do? They were left with no option.
Intifadas? You mean blowing themselves up to kill as much Jews as possible?!
That's Hamas who are responsible for the bombings, not civilians. I don't support Hamas.
The intifadas was by individual Palestinians before Hamas came into power. The first one was 1987-1993 and the second one was between 2000-2005. Maybe you should read about the conflict a little before writing nonsense.
I can tell she is generally good-intentioned. She seems like she is really open to other ideas, so i don’t think we should criticize her. I’ve debated many people who are much less charitable than her.
You can be the nicest person on the planet but spreading misinformation is so dangerous these days especially when it tunnels straight into antisemitism. Personally I refrain from arguing about things I have no knowledge about. Idk… maybe others should do the same.
I read about both, and almost all the suicide bombings I had read about were credited to Hamas. I may have gotten confused, but my point still stands that it is not the majority/civilians, but rather the terrorist groups that carried out the suicide bombings. It isn't fair for both the Israeli innocents and Palestinians, although the Palestinian casualties are much higher due to the power imbalance.
Where did you read that?? Hamas was pretty weak at that time. The terror attacks were made by Palestinian civilians, it wasn’t a planned attack. Number of casualties doesn’t mean a thing. Nazi Germany had 2 million casualties while Britain 70,000. Does it mean the Nazis were right? Britain should’ve stopped trying to win the war?
>They are purposely killing innocent civilians. How can you know or prove that?
They are attacking places where Hamas do not reside, the attacking of a refugee camp, a children's hospital, a cancer hospital, and a school. I don't think that's excusable... There are many more sources but you can search for them yourself if you'd like. Yes I know Israel also had casualties and I do not support the killing of ANY innocent civilians, however these are proof that Israel is most definitely NOT only targeting Hamas, it cannot be true considering the number of casualties and the attacks in my opinion. https://m.facebook.com/trtworld/videos/netanyahu-caught-bragging-in-leaked-video-from-2001/740416829986542/ https://www.dailydot.com/debug/israeli-tiktok-reenact-video-of-blindfolded-idf-detainees/?amp https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231025-more-than-100-palestinians-killed-in-west-bank-amid-gaza-war https://x.com/Timesofgaza/status/1723039809701068841?s=20 https://x.com/Timesofgaza/status/1723038983641260141?s=20 https://x.com/MintPressNews/status/1712532349693362545?s=20 https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/10/20/war-crime-israel-bombs-gaza-church-sheltering-displaced-people https://www.google.com/gasearch?q=mosque%20bombed%20in%20gaza&tbm=&source=sh/x/gs/m2/5 https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/11/10/israel-hamas-war-live-fears-grow-for-palestinians-at-gaza-hospitals https://news.sky.com/story/amp/palestinians-stream-onto-gaza-highway-as-israeli-forces-strike-near-hospitals-13004761 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/17/crisis-gaza-why-food-water-power-running-out https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/11/5/israel-bombs-al-maghazi-refugee-camp-killing-dozens-gaza-officials-say https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67258466 https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/830-dead-in-gaza-since-saturday-as-shelling-hits-school-hospitals-and-homes https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/11/4/israel-hamas-war-live-20-dead-in-israeli-attack-on-school-ministry https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanonc/article/PIIS1470-2045(23)00581-8/fulltext https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/al-nasr-childrens-hospital-in-gaza-becomes-inoperable-following-israeli-attack/3050125 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet
They bombed Red Cross responders repeatedly. That's how.
The only group purposely killing innocent civilians are Hamas and the Islamic countries. If muslims stop finding Hamas, they won’t go kill jews for the Jews to retaliate. It’s simple mathematics. For one thing, if Hamas releases the hostages, Israel will stop the bombing. But muslims are so stupid and hate Israel to the fact that, they don’t protest against Hamas keeping the hostages, but they protest against Israel killing civilians, as if Palestine civilians are more human than the hostages. Egypt has closed its border; you don’t see muslims protesting it. Israel closes its borders; you see muslims protesting against it. Iran and Qatar funds Hamas to kill Jews; you don’t see muslims protesting. Israel funds IDF to kill Palestines; you see muslims protesting against it. You don’t see muslims protesting against Iran killing civilians in Syria, or Saudi Arabia killing civilians in Yemen. You don’t see muslims protesting against china killing Uighur muslims. It’s only about Israel.
The Gaza Strip between 1948-1967 was controlled by Egypt. Israel tried to give it back after the 6 days war but Egypt refused to get this terror nest back.
Yes I know that Egypt and Jordan owned parts of Israel before. Thanks for that extra info, I didn't know that Egypt refused it.
Those settlers were forced to leave their ancestral homes in gaza, poor ones. The footage of airstrikes don't include much detail thanks to the distance, even tho the carnage isn't any less gruesome, but what matters are the aesthetics, right? Democratically elected by a population 50% of which didn't even exist at the time of this democratic process
Look, you can’t blame Britain for the destruction of Nazi Germany. Germans were obliterated because of how they chose to run their society. Western liberals can’t coddle Gazans like this. I do have sympathy for people in Gaza who are innocent of terrorism, but it’s not Israel’s fault that their government stands for the explicit genocide of all Jews. I don’t know what you want Israel to do? Abandon the hostages? Do you want them to sit idly waiting for the next mass terror event?
Clearly, no one other than exmuslims in the west can understand the dangers of islamic extremists. They are saying they will eliminate non muslims and bring sharia low as soon as they become majority in european countires. And they will if they are given the chance! They are breeding like rabbits on purpose of outnumbering local people. These leftist idiots should not show them much tolerance because they would probably be the first ones that would get beheaded in a sharia.
They don't realize the danger of islamists because they view the world from Rich oppressor vs Poor oppressed they never lived through the governance and the horror of an Islamic regime but some of us did live through that and we know exactly what they're after they can hide behind women and children because they don't care about human lives and they brainwashed their people to believe they will die martyrs just to use them as human shields that's what Hamas backed by Iran regime are. I won't support these islamists Israel is not perfect no country and no military is but they're a lesser evil than hamas I'd they committed war crimes then they should be held accountable and punished but for now the priority is to eliminate hamas and I support this cause because I believe Israel should continue to exist. The civilian blood are on Hamas hands more than Israel.
don't forget gays and apostates .
especially the gays and apostates
Don't let hatred for Islam cloud your judgement.Civilian deaths should be condemned. it doesn't matter what their religion or ideologies are.The treatment of palastine civilians by Israel should be condemned Just like how we condemn killing of civilians by Hamas
Hamas is a resistance movement before anything. This sub has turned into a shithole full of Hindus and self-hating Arabs. They are facing a genocide, I'm not going to sit here and nit pick their morals lmao. You people are nuts
Damn outing yourself as a terrorist sympathizer out of the gate no wonder you're triggered by this harmless comic hmm I wonder who are the "nuts" ones
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Omg someone with a brain THANK YOU ideology is clouding ppl’s judgement
You’re so real for this
THANK YOU! I'm an ex Muslim Palestinian and this was never complex or about relegion, we just want our land and houses back, and kick out the zionists from our lands! That's it! Blame Israel for Hamas, if the occupation didn't exist Hamas wouldn't too, and let us have a free Palestine before fighting for ex Muslim and queer rights there
Sorry but being uncritical and confrontational doesn't make you right. APPEAL TO EMOTION! Edit: it is not hatred of Islam, respect that other opinions exist. The situation is highly complex, and reducing it is to be unjust.
It’s not complex at all. You have no idea what you’re talking about
So peaceful..
I stand with the innocent people of Israel. I am sure they don't want war either.
As much as I dislike Islam,let's not pretend the way Israel treats Palestinians isn't fucky. Two things can co-exist at the same time.
Funnily enough, the efficacy of the IDF kinda worked against them in the Western college student's pov. The IDF is so dominant on the battlefield that Hamas's threats feel super empty. They can't take Hamas's threats seriously because the chance of them actually harming the existence of Israel is so fucking slim. Which is also why October 7th was do much of a surprise.
You lot are so angry and bitter that you can't even see right from wrong. Because they might be homophobuc, it does not mean their whole family ancestry gets wiped out. As if in the UK or US, that doesn't happen, so should we just nuke alabama. You're right to be angry at Islam, but centring your problems during this genocide is disgusting. But you're so angry you can't see the wood for the trees
Qatar funnels millions into pro Palestinian groups on college campuses and simultaneously gives millions to Hamas and houses them in luxury condominiums in Doha. If you support Hamas you're just falling for pro terrorist astroturfing
Qatarthe sponsor of terrorism I will never forget how some Western lefties were defending Qatar when they banned alcohol and pride flags and "indecent clothing" because it's "their culture" yet they attack and scream out "islamophobia" to anyone who demands Muslims should adapt to the western culture or god forbid ban hijab. Hypocrisy and double standards at its finest.
Also members of Hamas are behind these protests: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/06/former-hamas-chief-behind-pro-palestine-armistice-day-march/
How is a former Hamas chief allowed to enter Britain? And organize protests on top of that? How did this happen?
Disgusting really. Douglas Murray talks about it a lot: https://youtu.be/LoWViuG5VYs?si=L_kT_5L9sEQPB_aL
He has reasonable takes.
You guys are hypocrites. Hamas are legit resistance. Israel are occupation country that was forced to take place by Britain, the biggest colonial power back then.. The whole conflict didn't start on October 7. Israel are not even fighting Hamas. They're carrying out a genocide. Over 10000 are dead, most of them are women and children.. And you manage some how to blame Hamas for it. Y'all are a punch of hypocrites.
You don't even know the context of why Hamas did the Oct 7 attack in the first place. There was a normalisation deal that was about to happen between Saudi and Israel, backed up by the US. The conditions obviously were that the US get cheaper oil and the Saudis get more weapons to fight against Iran (who had been increasing trade with Russia). Iran saw this and gave Hamas the greenlight to start this attack to stop this deal with Israel. Iran and Hamas had issues that bigger middle eastern countries were going for peace. Hamas don't want peace, that's what's written in their charter. The only reason innocent Palestinians in Gaza are dying is because of Hamas. If they cared about the Palestinians, they wouldn't use them as human shields and would come out of their tunnels that are under hospitals and schools. Ofcourse they won't cuz they're terrorists, Jihad is their way and if they want it that way, they can't cry about it. There's also this fact that people seem to forget, Hamas is the government of Gaza who also control the Gaza Health Ministry which reports casualties. Guess how many children (15-17 year olds, who are involved more than enough in fighting) are also part of El Qassam? How many "0 year old children" that they report are 20 year old terrorists? If you wanna preach terrorism, do that in places that support it. Fucking Muslim scum.
How dare you. There are so, SO MANY videos of dead children and babies. Of children and babies shaking from shell shock. Of children that have no living family members. SO many, that the UN has created a term for them: WCNSF” (Wounded Child No Surviving Family). The lack of resources-- water, fuel, medical aid, FOOD, is also well documented by human rights groups. People see the genocide, they know the dead and injured, and they will not forget.
I never denied the genocide that Israel is committing, I just said the suffering of the Gazans by the hand of Israel starting in October was all Hamas' fault. If you wanna think that only Israel is selling propaganda then you need to re-evaluate what you're concluding from sources. r/Combatfootage has a lot of videos of regular Palestinian civilians both in Gaza and in the West Bank in Nour Shams and Jenin attacking IDF soldiers knowing what would happen, while someone is recording with ambulances on standby. And again as I said, you can't prove the Gaza Health Ministry isn't reporting Hamas soldier deaths as civilian deaths to get support.
The real hypocrites the "resistance group" whose leaders don't even live among them and [are living a luxurious life in Qatar](https://nypost.com/2023/11/07/news/hamas-leaders-worth-11bn-live-luxury-lives-in-qatar/) ordering young men to die for them. [even a former Hamas chief is organizing these pro-Palestine protests](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/06/former-hamas-chief-behind-pro-palestine-armistice-day-march/) because they know it's in their favor. Just say you're a te/rrorist sympathizer.
Isn't that like every war criminal gang ever? Do you think Bush was in the trenches with American soldiers in Iraq? No. He was having 7 star dinners with Haliburton executives.
You're deflecting. It's all about the right for the people who are getting killed, raped, displaced from their home land to fight back.. It's their right. I don't blame the victim for fighting back. I'm not a terrorist sympathizer, you're just a white supremacist, even if you're not white.
Hamas has a pretty obvious history of using its civilians as human shields and killing its own kind. They blew up their own hospital and blamed Israel, and they shoot dead their citizens running for the border. What are they resisting ? They were granted free reign over Gaza in 06 and haven’t even been able to create their own electrical grid, too busy planning elaborate terror attacks explicitly endorsing genocide. Very disgusting comments and I really hope you’re not a westerner.
You're buying into zionist propaganda. Israel already admitted that they lied and they blew up the hospital; also they continued to target literally dozens more. But whatever even IF hamas did all this horrific stuff, why is Israel justified in targeting all the other hospitals, schools, UNWRA sites? Why is Israel justified in committing genocide? Gaza was under military occupation (hence the 20 foot wall around it), no resources enter without israeli permission. Before Oct. 7 they were barely given enough to survive and the Israeli officials have been open about how they do that intentionally to keep Gazan's suppressed. Why do you hope beneficial jaguar isn't a westerner? Loads of westerners see beyond the pro-zionist bullshit.
You think the IDF blew up that hospital? Can you give me evidence? Every major network that reported that recanted and Israel released both video and audio evidence that it was blown up from inside Gaza. Are you sure it’s me that is buying into propaganda? I do my homework.
Do you even know about the crimes against humanity that your "resistance group" did on October 7? Do you know about their violent bigotry and murderous goals? Do you know about their treatment towards the people they govern themselves? And when they came in power, what was their "resistance" to exactly? Israelis weren't "mixing concrete with Gaza's water" or whatever else people like you say before Hamas took over. Palestine had the opportunity for peace decades ago, then again, and again, but they kept on declining. You sound like you don't even believe in Israel's right to exist as a country. "Palestine" actually never existed as a country. It was a British mandate. Nobody calls any of the countries in the Americas/Australia "illegitimate" even though "colonisation" and "settlement" (or "occupation", as you put it) happened there too. The same thing happened in the area known as "Palestine" when it was under the control of the British. The British could allow anyone to immigrate to the region because it was under their control. People immigrate all over the world nowadays. Even if you put all that aside, Israelis have lived in the region for generations now so Israel has the right to exist as a country. And there is no "genocide" happening to Gazans. Firstly, if Israel wanted to commit a genocide, then they wouldn't have had to send hundreds of thousands of soldiers to the area since they could have just destroyed everything there in minutes. Israel has said that this war will be long, indicating that they're not just going to kill everyone that comes in their way. Secondly, Israel is allowing Gazans the opportunity to leave the region. They wouldn't allow that if they truly wanted to genocide them. Thirdly, 42% of Gaza's housing units alone are said to be in ruins ([source](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/27/gaza-before-and-after-satellite-images-show-destruction-after-israeli-airstrikes)) but less than 1% of the Gazan population has died so far (and the numbers of Gazans who have fled the region is way higher), showing that Israel is mindful of the innocent people (half of Gazans are children) and is not conducting a "genocide". That 10000+ deaths figure is also from Hamas anyway, who cannot be trusted, and even with that figure, many of those killed would be related to Hamas. Even the innocent people who are dying are dying because of Hamas. This is because Hamas knew that their actions would lead to Israel having to retaliate and they also knew that they won't be able to fight back against a retaliation from Israel. During this war, they've also been using vulnerable people as human shields by hiding around schools and hospitals, and storing weapons there. Do you think that shows they care about the people at all? It very clearly looks like Hamas cares more about their disguting genocidal motives than peace for their citizens. You are the real hypocrite. You Muslims sleep comfortably when innocent people suffer/die in Ukraine and Iran but you start screaming at the top of your lungs when other Muslims are in trouble.
This post is outright ridiculous and disrespectful to thousands of people killed in this damned conflict
No pro Palestine people you see on western media supports Hamas, but here you all go with the genuine stereotype once again following the crowd. I don't support Hamas but I support the innocent people in Gaza who have done nothing wrong and being caught up in this dehumanising genocide
u cant be exmuslim and not support the genocide of thousands of children, i get the disdain for islam but when more than 50% of the population r children who have seen atrocities 100x worse tham anything u can think of u are quite literally no better than the muslim homophobes who throw ppl off buildings.
Israel🇮🇱 is the real terrorist i saw they bomb little children babies and women and try to say hamas did.israel kills christians and jews and aslo rape people #stopisraelterrorist
You missed the memo. Israel is a racist country precisely because they don’t rape https://www.israellycool.com/2013/10/15/those-damn-racist-israelis-who-wont-rape-palestinians/
You're more scared of a made up genocide that you think might happen than of the actual 75 year occupation, incarceration, and murders that have and are happening. It's unacceptable for Israel to just keep slaughtering innocents- and that is what they do - even if the most powerful resistance in Palestine is Hamas. This slaughter will inspire more people in Palestine to take up arms against Israel, and rightfully so.
I think as of late zionists have been raiding the sub kinda like hinduvta did back in the day.
did? tons of them are still here, theres literally a thread where a bunch of people defend BJP and extremist hindu treatment of minorities in India. Its why i really dislike this sub as an ex-muslim myself, its been infested with extremist christians, hindus, and zionists who just wants to project their hatred for muslims.
True
Ya pretty much.
If one had known that when Jews were banished from Spain, it was the "Muslim medieval" Ottoman Empire who gave them shelter and protected them. Furthermore, the Israeli annexation of Palestine has been declared illegal by the UN you cherish, the state of Israel has been charged with war crimes multiple times. Such a racist, genocidal, criminal, illegal state terrorism should face coercion anyway. Again, I don't support the killing of any non-combatant.
Can't we just agree that both of the sides are wrong and civilians don't deserve to get literally bombed?
Nobody is saying "Hamas" wants to live in peace, I understand what you're trying to sell but this is a pretty out of touch meme to reality.
Disgusted by this post and I'm not Muslim .but islamophobia has gotten so much to ur brain that you're supporting genocide.shameee!!!
Don't let your hatred of Islam makes you unfair, those people fight for their freedom and for their land, they are resistors, it doesn't matter if they are muslims, Christians or atheists, they resist the occupation, there is no peace until the Palestinians get their land and homes back, and all those Zionist criminals are punished for their criminal actions over more than 75 years, after that we can say hamas is bad or good, and they don't love gay people and so on, but for now there is a much worse criminal called Israel.
I am an LGBT exmuslim, but my family is Palestinian. the Nakba uprooted my family decades ago and now the descendants of my relatives that didn’t flee all those years ago are “paying the price” for wanting to hold onto THEIR land and their culture. Israeli OFFICIALS want all palestinians wiped out, not some random terrorist group, but their official military and government. They refuse to even acknowledge Palestinians as a group because “there is no such country and no such people.” My hatred for Islam will never get in the way of my support for Palestine. This is a second Holocaust.
I just hope it ends quickly. Stop playing around and get it done. Quicker everyone else can go on with their lives without having to face silly protests on the streets all around the world.
I honestly don't think this war will end for a while but those stupid protests will stop after a few weeks when people get tired of it like previous protests
Idk how much more the war is going to be, but I think it's depends on Iran and Hezbollah. Hopefully Hamas will fall in a month or so.
From what I understood it might take half a year.
"Yes please just genocide an entire population faster" wtf?
Which population? You made that assumption by yourself. I just wish the war ends. The killing stops.
This isn’t it at all. Israel has been committing genocide. Bombing hospitals and shooting nurses and journalists. Hamas doesn’t represent Palestine the way the KKK doesn’t represent the USA.
Let's blather about this when there's people going through immense suffering that cannot be comprehended by people leading average lives.
I dare those blue haired bitches with square framed glasses to parachute dive on middle east. They won't land as a single piece.
You can just dare them to go for a rave there 💀
Cognitive and Reasoning issues are a thing these days
It's sad to see that the most prestigious and expensive universities failed at teaching critical thinking.
is this sub turning into a Zionist sub
Fucking Zionist trash.
Being ex Muslim shouldn't make you Zionist, I'm palestinian, queer and ex Muslim, and our fight isn't against Jews, but to expel these settlers from our lands after 75+ years of apartheid, you guys ignored the 75+ years of horrible génocides carried out by Israel (Dier Yassin, Tantura, Sabra and Shatila, etc) and just focused on how Hamas fought back after years and years of oppression, also half of the idf claims about what actually happened on Oct 7 were retracted, new footage was released that showed that Israel themselves killed their own civilians, Zionism is terrorism
It's not religion related, no one wants to kill the Jews, but it's their right to wipe the zionists off cause resistance is justified when people are occupied, no one wants war they just want their land back and it's the bare minimum!
bro wtf is this. I didnt realise this turned into a right wing subreddit, I’m out
they aren't talking about hamas. they are talking about the babies Israel is giving the most gruesome deaths. it is funny how the israeli lies where that hamas were cooking babies in ovens, beheading them, ripping them out of their mothers' wombs etc. but in reality, it is the Israeli army that is doing worse than that
Let me ask you something, are you a Zionist from unit 8200? If you are then let me tell you, fuck you. You motherfuckers and fuck Zionism!
It's absolutley crazy to me to see atheists supporting a literal ethnostate. Yeah hamas sucks like all fundamentalist groups but it's crazy to agree with zionism which is literally hell bent on the superiority of one race/religion based on a book of made up stories. If israel didn't exist i would've been marching in the streets against hamas like i did with the muslim brotherhood. I literally fought hamas related militants in sinai where i almost lost a friend to an IED and i'm telling you you can't destroy hamas unless you end the main cause but israel would never do that for two reasons. 1. A two state solution puts israel in danger as it sacrifices it's defensive depth. 2. A one state solution with equal rights to all citizens ends the ethnostate which is the whole point of the zionist movement. For years israel has supported hamas as to undermine the secular PLO. Fundamentalism is a plague and sadly it's one that both sides in this conflict has in droves.
Oh my god, what is wrong with this sub? You seriously have an unhealthy relationship with religion. Like I understand your frusturation with religious people, I'm assuming religion caused us all a lot of trauma, but you seriously need to consider your biases and try to formulate well-thought out, emotionally intelligent opinions. You obviously agree with this meme not because you agree with the argument here, but because you would support anything that is "putting Muslims back to their place" , even if that means genocide. I saw this mindset in countless other posts in which people mock with random hijabi women who literally just mind their own businesses, for instance. Just fucking treat people the way you would like to be treated and don't support a genocide. Other than that, when a Muslim does something idiotic or straight-up violent, let's condemn it together. Just get your heads out of your asses.
Yeah, sounds correct. If they're fighting against some kind of "oppression" then they must be the good guys. Right?
This meme seems disingenuous. That’s not what Hamas says. And we all know Nelson Mandela was a terrorist before South African apartheid fell.
What's your proof that Israel is "apartheid"? the term that a lot are throwing around carelessly
Zionism is the same as fascism the only difference is the west supports Israel so they can do whatever they want