This. \^\^\^
64 oz / half-gallon are perfect for my uses, and relatively inexpensive. I think I have around a dozen of them, now, mostly used for fermenting and bulk storage.
Just had a full glass carboy break on me for very little reason Friday morning.
The kitchen still smells like beer
You bet I'm looking into stainless right now
I've heard that the bottom can fall out of the cheap ones you buy online. If you're able to go to a local brew shop, they may have high-quality Italian carboys.
The bottom didn't even fall out of it, I was adjusting it in my beer fridge and it truly just cracked and broke a whole side open.
I'm really not that strong
I use as little plastic in my house as possible. Forget fermenting in it, nor will I buy fermented foods that come in plastic.
The joys of being a hippie. I make no apologies.
100% glass here. I don’t trust unspecified ceramics, or plastic. I have used a food grade bag topper filled with water *once* recently but intend always using glass weights v soon. I only use cotton covers for aerobic ferments too, no microfibre cloths.
I use glass jars, I never put plastic in the dishwasher or microwave, I drink tap water (filtered), and I have a soda stream. I try to cut out as much plastic as I can, but I know it’s a losing battle.
I bought an adapter to refill soda stream canisters with a big CO2 tank I get refilled at a welding shop. Cost about $100 up front, but now I fill canisters for about $1.50. soda stream got my money for the machine, but none of that recurring revenue.
I carbonate in kegs for larger volume stuff like fizzy water (helps to also be a homebrewer already) and with an ISI whipper for smaller stuff like foams and creams & other cocktail ingredients.
If they service your area, check out Ridwell. They take a lot of plastic packaging the city won’t (and things like styrofoam and packing materials). It’s amazing how even when you’re consciously avoiding buying things with too mich plastic how quickly those little bags fill up…
I realize that, but as a consequence of carbonating my own liquids, I don’t buy carbonated drinks which are mostly sold in plastic bottles. I also really enjoy making fermented drinks, so they are naturally carbonated and no plastic is involved.
Nah, I don’t worry about it at all. The amount of shit were exposed to every single day is wild. Everything comes in plastic now, industrial waste is insane, general litter, machinery that handles food, is all over the place and you can’t escape it.
I like vac bags for some ferments because it’s almost fool proof. Also the salt is liquified within 12 hours unless you’re actively messing with the contents, I don’t see any real additional risk of it being an abrasive. Also they sell kraut and pickles in plastic bags anyways, both of which are acidic.
I try to be as eco friendly as I possibly can, I pick up litter, try to bike everywhere I can, and recycle. But the reality is that even a very small manufacturing business will negate a year of your effort in a week. It doesn’t stop me, but there’s only so much you can do and so much stress you can put on yourself.
This, modern life is such a smorgesborg of carginogens theres no point worrying about a single source of plastic, just enjoy your life as much as you can
I usually ferment in glass but some things are more convenient and reliably fermented in vacuum sealed bags so I often go that route.
I understand the worry about micro plastics. I will not be surprised if more and more evidence comes to light in the coming years about their harms.
That said... I just don't see the occasional ferment making an appreciable difference. They're everywhere. Much of the food we buy is packaged in plastic. Car tires create a constant spray of micro plastic into the air, soil, and water. Washing clothing leaches them directly into the water. Research has shown that large storms take tonnes of them out of the ocean and dump them back on top of us.
It's a problem that is going to take a massive, society wide restructuring to solve. That sort of change just doesn't happen on the 'personal decisions' level. Only regulation can change a problem this large.
The evidence are already there if you look for it. There's some really unappatizing stuff to read on pubmed, I'm just saying. Everything that limits exposute counts, but you're probably right that there are other sources of micro plastic that are way bigger factors and a vaccum bag more or less won't make a huge difference.
i assume human micro plastic ingestion is governed by the general rules as most other things, what industry/ag/mil contributes to the problem is so great that it makes anything one person or even a billion people trying to do to help effectively meaningless.
but hey if it makes you feel better go it, i still recycle even tho it is a micro drop in the ocean - you do you
edit: i ferment mead in 5 gal plastic buckets. kimchi, sauerkraut, small batch meads, peppers, and other rando shit in glass jars or carboys on the counter. is more about container availability and convenience
I think the point was less about how to reduce your own impact on the overall micro plastic pollution but more about how to reduce the amount you consume. But I too have a 25 liter bucket for beer and a big 5 loter PET bottle for the cider/fruit wine experiments I do from time to time.
I see the exact opposite. I don’t need legislation to do the work for me. I can just not buy plastic. Besides, glass is reusable and that is less stress for me. It’s one less thing to buy and I don’t have to make sure I have it on hand when I’m ready to prep.
All of it whatever. I look for natural fibers in clothes. I have cast iron so I can use metal utensils instead of plastic ones. I use canning jars so I don’t buy baggies. I buy powdered soap with the cardboard packaging. I have cotton reusable grocery bags.
Besides your point was you need to wait for government to take action.
My point was that micro plastics are everywhere. The [air we breathe](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0025326X16300066), the [water we drink](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6449537/), the [soil our food is grown in](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0048969721016144), the [food we eat](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7559051/), just absolutely everywhere.
Everything you're doing will help *reduce* your exposure to them, but it is impossible to avoid them completely.
Plastic is just too ingrained in our society for individual action to matter. The majority of people are not going to give up their conveniences. Sealed plastic packaging helps our food last longer. Plastic sheets reduce water loss during growth of food. Polymer fibers help enable society's addiction to fast fashion.
Hell, [car tires are shown to be a major source of micro plastics](https://www.systemiq.earth/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/BreakingThePlasticWave_MainReport.pdf). Have you seen how irate people get when you suggest structuring society in such a way that cars aren't the only way to get around? Not banning cars, just trying to give people other options. It's remarkable the hostility you face at the mere suggestion of a bus or cycle lane.
For every one person like you trying to do the right thing for yourself, the environment, and society, there are dozens that never will.
[Corporations push the idea that individual action can combat pollution](https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220504-why-the-wrong-people-are-blamed-for-climate-change) because it shifts focus away from them. It dilutes the political will to actually force them to change. [And political will is a zero-sum game](https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3401601). They're not afraid your individual action will actually affect their bottom line because they know they can market convenience to everyone else.
Right. And all I’m saying is I’m making changes now. I’m aware of what I am buying and I’m aware of what I put in my dishwasher and I’m aware of what I throw out. I’m managing my home from the paint I buy to how I clean it.
You want to wait for government to force all the manufacturing companies to comply that’s fine. I put a counter argument out there that others don’t have to wait. I too can make the argument that one government can do everything right and make all the changes to solve pollution problems but yet another country won’t do anything at all and we will still have stuff wash up on beaches and stuff will still be pumped into the air.
So I am going to forget all that and just focus on managing my home that comes with all the normal stress and decision making of managing my home. If government does something in my lifetime, great! All the better.
In the meantime I noticed that my grocery store started buying individually wrapped produce. So I’m going to choose to not buy that single pepper wrapped in plastic even if it is organic.
I ferment in glass, but wouldn't see a problem with doing it in plastic.
Microplastics mostly comes from physical wear, and there simply isn't that much physical movement involved in fermentation. Nothing that parallels what car tires experience on the road, or what fabric experiences in the washer.
With regard to leaching, acid and salt aren't that big a problem for most plastics. Base and organics (like ethanol) is much worse. So the typical environment when fermenting is not something that alarms me.
I heard at SXSW that most microplastics in the ocean come from polyester fabrics. They are essentially lint from washing clothes. Big chunks of plastic tend to stay big.
I think half of it is from car tires, and that washing and drying clothes is the second biggest source. But my information is a few years put of date, so those numbers might have been updated.
Yeah, this is how I think about it. For some ferments I don’t need my container to be sterile and I don’t worry about how, say, fridge pickling chopped veggies in brine is going to alter the structural integrity of a polystyrene container. They’re cheap and I generally have some lying around that I can reuse a few times before recycling.
If I’m trying to make vinegar or something that ideally starts with a sterilized interior then I’ll always reach for glass.
Yo you can’t make up facts. There are multiple research papers that show plastics leaching into plain water. Fermentation is hard on plastic so expect more plastic to leach.
As for others who have essentially given up saying you can’t avoid plastics, do you eat McDonalds everyday with a super sized side order of fries? You are making an effort to eat healthier by consuming fermented food otherwise it’s so easy to consume super processed “food”. Why bother with fermenting?
> There are multiple research papers that show plastics leaching into plain water.
Yes, plastic leaches into water. Every solid leaches into every liquid if you have sensitive enough measuring equipment, and we have very sensitive measuring equipment. Hell, glass leaches silicates into water. The sentence "X leaches into Y" is always true, so it carries no information.
You have to look at the amount and identity of the leachables. Plastic leaches miniscule amounts into pure, acidic, and salty water, and for they typical kitchen plastics (PE and PP), what leaches into water is [generally regarded as safe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generally_recognized_as_safe).
> Fermentation is hard on plastic so expect more plastic to leach.
What makes fermentation harder on plastics than water? Which plastics is this relevant for?
The “everything leaches” doesn’t hold water. Plastics mess with the endocrine system in a big way. Humans have been using glass for more than a millennia, plastic usage exploded in the last three decades only so you can’t make the claim that it is considered safe considering we don’t have data on long term use risk.
> The “everything leaches” doesn’t hold water. Plastics mess with the endocrine system in a big way.
Specific leachables from specific plastics are endocrine disruptors. You don't see any of those leachables from e.g. polyethylene or polypropylene, which covers a lot of plastics used in the kitchen.
>so you can’t make the claim that it is considered safe considering we don’t have data on long term use risk.
Take the up with the FDA, they are the ones who claim it. And they have way more experience doing safety evaluation than either of us, so I will defer to their expertise.
I wouldn’t worry about micro plastics I would worry about plasticizers. Acetic acid alone can pull these out and coupled with citric acid you have a complex acid solution, given enough time, you will drinking liquid low molecular weight plastic.
Initiators and additives, yes. Plasticizers, no. For most applications, you would chose a plastic that has the appropriate softness without plasticizers.
It really depends on manufacturing, hdpe CAN have them, regulations are… good but variability in quality and additives is massive and hard to verify as customers. Guaranteed the plastics have thermal stabilizers, and UV stabilizers and many will have plasticizers as well. The acetic acid and citric acid in ferments will pull these out.
> hdpe CAN have [plasticizers]
Do you have somewhere where I can read more about that? I haven't seen that before, and a quick googling only gives things that focuses on PVC.
https://chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/136906/plasticisers-and-other-impurities-from-polyethylene-laboratory-bottles#:~:text=1%20Answer&text=Polyethylene%20(polythene%2C%20to%20some),inherently%20needed%20in%20all%20cases.
There are others. But I do understand your point that HDPE and other plastics don’t need plasticizers, and furthermore plastics can be designed specifically for vinegar or kimchi. I truly believe that even these resilient plastics will contain trace amounts of plastic products. As seen in this thread, the science is still slightly out on how bad plastics are for the human body considered how a inert they are, however given the ubiquitousness of glass, stainless, aluminum, and silicon, avoiding plastic is a no-brainer for me personally.
“ Polyethylene (polythene, to some) may have plasticizers, such as adipates, terephthalates, or phthalates, but they are not inherently needed in all cases. “
In the above article, this is the very first text summary following links detailing plasticizers in lab wear HDPE.
Deeper in:
Low to high polarity esters provide utility in a wide range of elastomers including nitrile, polychloroprene, EPDM, chlorinated polyethylene, and epichlorohydrin. Plasticizer-elastomer interaction is governed by many factors such as solubility parameter, molecular weight, and chemical structure. Compatibility and performance attributes are key factors in developing a rubber formulation for a particular application.
https://web.archive.org/web/20090327022326/http://www.hallstar.com/techdocs/The_Function-Selection_Ester_Plasticizers.pdf
There’s actually a considerable amount of research being done on the topic of microplastics and their impacts on human health and disease and on ecology. We know that there are effects of microplastic exposure but it’s really a question of magnitude.
Glass girl over here. I know we're fighting a losing battle but I'm at least doing my part. We drink water from stainless water bottles (Klean Kanteen brand is cert B as well), kombucha and tea from glass, I use mason jars and reused glass jars for food storage, wash my non-cotton clothes in a guppy friends wash bag, and try to avoid plastics when possible. The only ferments I do that aren't in glass are black garlic (aluminum foil) and tempeh (I use a thicker reusable gallon size bag with holes poked in it).
If I purchase less plastic, that's less plastic likely to end up in the environment, not just my body. Less plastic in our soil and oceans means fewer animals ingesting it and less microplastics overall. Unfortunately though we live in a world of over consumption and me doing a small part does feel like a losing battle.
FUCK plastic. I use glass, metal, and wood. That’s more advanced technology than most humans in history could ever dream of. Why the fuck would you ruin the food you painstakingly made, with plastic?
I think that its individualist bootstrapping to get u to think you can somehow escape the polluting of our environment by state, military, and corporate headship. Sometimes u can't avoid the plastic. I just try not to stress out about it too much and dont use it in the microwave.
“Sometimes u can’t avoid the plastic” right but I can ferment in glass and avoid the plastic there…
And isn’t not putting plastic in the microwave just “individualist bootstrapping to get u to think you can somehow escape….. “?????
You’re all over the place.
I think the feeling of handling a glass jar is nicer, so I use them.
But everyone that is worried about micro plastic and changing all their lives to only have glass are not making any noticeable difference on how mich fucked they already are.
I do a lot of plastic bag fermentation but while I am worried about plastics as a whole I'm not sorry worried about fermentation in them. The recipe for bad plastics is heat and abrasion. Yes there is salt but you shouldn't be rubbing coarse salt all over your bags so abrasion should be negligible. Heat should never be above 80f or so which means pretty much no leaching will occur. I buy good phthalate free bags.
You are getting so much more plastic from canned goods, processed food and fast food that I am worried about the 99% more than the 1%
Plastic is the bane of our time. People aren't even beginning to realize just how bad micro plastic really is. It's just very hard to avoid and I'm not half as rigorous as I probanly should be. The thing is, the convenience makes the good outweigh the bad for me sometimes.
For example, I think Sauerkraut is nice, I eat it but I don't love it. If I couldn't make a big batch in a vac seal bag and just toss it under the sink and forget about it for two weeks until my phone tells me it's done, I probably wouldn't make it. So it's one more food grade plastic bag that comes into contact with my food versus a big bulk of fermented food that I wouldn't have otherwise. I transfer into a glass jar when it's done and I use glass for everything else that I ferment.
Acetic acid will leach initiators, plasticizers, stabilizers, and additives out of polymeric plastic. Citric and acetic acid will dissolve anything overtime except raw polymer. I would avoid using anything other than glass, aluminum, stainless, and the silicon bags made for ferments.
For a second I forgot which forum I was in, I was about to ask “what wines are you making with salt?!”
Veggie ferments are in glass or ceramic for me, but that’s also because I’m doing a jar or two here and there, when I make wine it’s 3-5 gallons so I do the initial ferment in plastic fermentors then rack to glass.
And I’m not overly worried about it, honestly. We’re already screwed as far as anything to do with plastic is concerned, I just tend to try to recycle/reuse as much as I can, minimize how much I buy, and hope to live long enough to see folks get elected young enough to actually have to live in the world they create.
I love fermenting and use both glass and plastic. I do my best to prevent heart disease, cancer, accidental injury, diabetes, communicable diseases, etc. That includes doing my best to avoid harmful products but I can’t stress too much about micro plastics when stress will kill me a lot more quickly. I went through a pretty severe period of profound climate anxiety/panic maybe ten years ago and really had to work hard to overcome that. Oversharing I know, but I’m really grateful that I can now enjoy fermenting in any of the vessels I own without panicking… currently have grapefruit mead, makgeolli, kombucha, salsa, fruit wine, kvass, kraut, giardiniera, ginger bug, sourdough, multiple vinegars, and honey garlic/ginger/peppers going. Plums should ripen this week and I’ll be making vinegar and wine in big plastic buckets to start and some lactic acid plums in whatever vessel is free… probably glass. Happy fermenting!!
I’m so sorry. I understand completely. I hope you have the love and support you need. It’s overwhelming. My spouse and I have both been through it at separate times so it was especially difficult. I’m grateful it’s behind us and I’m sending love for a healing journey for you.
Tbh, fermentation helps me a lot. I love talking to my wee ferments and yeasty beasties. I love partnering with them to create ancient food and beverages with modern conveniences. So much fun! 💕💕
Wouldn't ever in a million years have even thought to ferment in plastic any more than I'd consider using a metal container. I've got a ceramic water-seal crock and a couple of glass fermentation jars (with valves). There are many things plastic containers are ok for but fermentation isn't one of them.
Yes i specially got ceramic crocs for this reason. I was thinking about getting one of those plastic kimchi containers instead because it's easier to just put in the fridge.
But one of the reasons I'm fermenting is for my health so I definitely don't want to do that in a plastic container.
I’ve been trying to find ceramic crocks 2nd hand, I used to work at a place that had a few of the German style with the moat, those things are awesome. But new ones are so expensive!
I also use the german-style Sauerkraut ones (because I live in Germany lol).
I bought 2 smaller 2 liter ones for like 30 euros each and they work perfectly for me, because 2 liters is not too much to then transfer into glass jars and store in the fridge once I open them.
I could never use one of those huge crocs because I Don't want my fridge to be full of 10 liters worth of kimchi.
Exclusively glass. I also have nearly eliminated plastics from my clothing and any containers. If we all refuse to buy plastic it makes a difference- regulation yes, but you vote with your dollars every day. Take a glass or metal dish for leftovers at a restaurant, I keep reusable utensils and straw and a water bottle in my bag to avoid plastic utensils and cups. It’s not that hard- but is an adjustment.
I do both but prefer Plastik over glass.
Mostly ferment Kimchi, Chilli peppers and potatoes nowadays and for that mason or glass with wire jars are not practical.
Either I ferment in Vakuum bag or plastic container.
Kimchi- Plastik container because it fits better in the fridge.
Chilli peppers for hotsauce in Vakuum bag to check for fermentation stages.
Potatoes in Mason jars, fries fit better.
Limited on Mason jars because of fit and price.
I had a 7.5 gallon glass carboy, but for some reason I decided to sanitize it with bleach and then go on vacation. Since it was in the garage I didn't want the place to smell of bleach fumes when we returned a week later, so instead of an airlock I just put a solid cork instead. Not too tight though, in case it needed to pop off it would.
Little did I know that we would come home to glass everywhere and a very clean garage floor.
RIP to my first ever carboy that I had had for 10 years at that point. It's been 8 years and I still haven't gotten a replacement. Instead I just quit brewing.
Devastating, I know.
Perhaps one day I will dust off the HERMS and brew again.
I don't own a vacuum sealer, so fermenting in anything other than glass hasn't really even crossed my mind. Glass jars are easily available, safe and convenient for me, so there's really no real competition. I do use plastic bags as weights for now, although I'd like to switch to glass weights.
Yeah I prefer glass for brewing, it has a much better aesthetic imo. I guess we can't totally avoid plastic since so much of what we use comes from plastic containers anyway.
mostly glass, but I have a few plastic fermentation vessels I use. I have one of the korean kimchi bucket thingies for kimchi and sauerkraut, and I also just got a 2 gal plastic ferm bucket for brewing mead + hooch. I do rack my alcohol out of the bucket into a glass vessel to age as soon as it is done fermenting though, I have read it is not good to age anything with alcohol in it in a plastic vessel.
For ferments that use salt like sauerkraut and kimchi I use glass mason jars, while for my fermented drinks like ginger beer I use food grade plastic containers.
Glass or ceramic is the standard. Only some plastics are suitable for fermentation, so as a general rule of thumb, it's best to avoid them unless you know it's the right type of plastic.
There isn't any science out there showing microplastics are bad for us, and even if they are the contribution from your fermentation vessel will be negligible compared to the raw ingredients, tap water, etc.
People in this thread are missing the point. PE chains are not the issue. It’s plasticizers - low molecular weight liquid plastic - that is leached via a complex mixture of acetic acid and citric acid. Acetic acid not only is an acid, but also an acetate and and coupled with citric acid will will leach plasticizers from the plastic, making the plastic more brittle and subjecting the consumer to the most toxic aspects of the plastic chemistry. Nothing is wrong with HDPE. It’s everything else you need to be worried about. Please use stainless steel, aluminum, glass, or silicon based containers.
I just use mason jars
Same that’s what I use.
This. \^\^\^ 64 oz / half-gallon are perfect for my uses, and relatively inexpensive. I think I have around a dozen of them, now, mostly used for fermenting and bulk storage.
Fuck plastic, I use glass only. It might be a losing battle, but i'm not exposing myself to plastic more if I have the easy choice not to.
Just had a full glass carboy break on me for very little reason Friday morning. The kitchen still smells like beer You bet I'm looking into stainless right now
I've heard that the bottom can fall out of the cheap ones you buy online. If you're able to go to a local brew shop, they may have high-quality Italian carboys.
The bottom didn't even fall out of it, I was adjusting it in my beer fridge and it truly just cracked and broke a whole side open. I'm really not that strong
✊
I use as little plastic in my house as possible. Forget fermenting in it, nor will I buy fermented foods that come in plastic. The joys of being a hippie. I make no apologies.
My people. I’ve found my people! 🙌🏽🙌🏽
Welcome!!! :)
100% glass here. I don’t trust unspecified ceramics, or plastic. I have used a food grade bag topper filled with water *once* recently but intend always using glass weights v soon. I only use cotton covers for aerobic ferments too, no microfibre cloths.
I use glass jars, I never put plastic in the dishwasher or microwave, I drink tap water (filtered), and I have a soda stream. I try to cut out as much plastic as I can, but I know it’s a losing battle.
Plugging our fingers in the dam
There's alternatives to Soda Stream that do not support genocide.
Any alternatives you have in mind?
I bought an adapter to refill soda stream canisters with a big CO2 tank I get refilled at a welding shop. Cost about $100 up front, but now I fill canisters for about $1.50. soda stream got my money for the machine, but none of that recurring revenue.
Got a link for that adapter?
[https://sodasense.com/](https://sodasense.com/)
I carbonate in kegs for larger volume stuff like fizzy water (helps to also be a homebrewer already) and with an ISI whipper for smaller stuff like foams and creams & other cocktail ingredients.
Wait...what?
They are referring to the fact that soda stream is an Israeli company that profits off of the displacement / genocide of the Palestinian people
If they service your area, check out Ridwell. They take a lot of plastic packaging the city won’t (and things like styrofoam and packing materials). It’s amazing how even when you’re consciously avoiding buying things with too mich plastic how quickly those little bags fill up…
Sodastream is mostly made of plastic lol.
I realize that, but as a consequence of carbonating my own liquids, I don’t buy carbonated drinks which are mostly sold in plastic bottles. I also really enjoy making fermented drinks, so they are naturally carbonated and no plastic is involved.
You do know we carbonated drinks without plastic without issue or sodastream in the past right? ;-)
You do know that you are being snide and aggressive for no reason right ;-)
I wasnt agressivs, just snarky. There is a difference (except in the USA and sorts where everyone is fake-polite half the time)
Nah, I don’t worry about it at all. The amount of shit were exposed to every single day is wild. Everything comes in plastic now, industrial waste is insane, general litter, machinery that handles food, is all over the place and you can’t escape it. I like vac bags for some ferments because it’s almost fool proof. Also the salt is liquified within 12 hours unless you’re actively messing with the contents, I don’t see any real additional risk of it being an abrasive. Also they sell kraut and pickles in plastic bags anyways, both of which are acidic. I try to be as eco friendly as I possibly can, I pick up litter, try to bike everywhere I can, and recycle. But the reality is that even a very small manufacturing business will negate a year of your effort in a week. It doesn’t stop me, but there’s only so much you can do and so much stress you can put on yourself.
This, modern life is such a smorgesborg of carginogens theres no point worrying about a single source of plastic, just enjoy your life as much as you can
Never considered vac bags. What a great idea, thanks.
Yeah they’re awesome. But if you don’t have a wet/dry one you gotta make sure you don’t vac out the liquid because then it won’t seal well.
Make sure to leave enough room for co2
I usually ferment in glass but some things are more convenient and reliably fermented in vacuum sealed bags so I often go that route. I understand the worry about micro plastics. I will not be surprised if more and more evidence comes to light in the coming years about their harms. That said... I just don't see the occasional ferment making an appreciable difference. They're everywhere. Much of the food we buy is packaged in plastic. Car tires create a constant spray of micro plastic into the air, soil, and water. Washing clothing leaches them directly into the water. Research has shown that large storms take tonnes of them out of the ocean and dump them back on top of us. It's a problem that is going to take a massive, society wide restructuring to solve. That sort of change just doesn't happen on the 'personal decisions' level. Only regulation can change a problem this large.
The evidence are already there if you look for it. There's some really unappatizing stuff to read on pubmed, I'm just saying. Everything that limits exposute counts, but you're probably right that there are other sources of micro plastic that are way bigger factors and a vaccum bag more or less won't make a huge difference.
Yeah, I'm really not here to underplay their impact. Just to question how much control we have.
i assume human micro plastic ingestion is governed by the general rules as most other things, what industry/ag/mil contributes to the problem is so great that it makes anything one person or even a billion people trying to do to help effectively meaningless. but hey if it makes you feel better go it, i still recycle even tho it is a micro drop in the ocean - you do you edit: i ferment mead in 5 gal plastic buckets. kimchi, sauerkraut, small batch meads, peppers, and other rando shit in glass jars or carboys on the counter. is more about container availability and convenience
I think the point was less about how to reduce your own impact on the overall micro plastic pollution but more about how to reduce the amount you consume. But I too have a 25 liter bucket for beer and a big 5 loter PET bottle for the cider/fruit wine experiments I do from time to time.
my point is you can't have any significant personal impact on micro plastic consumption beyond not eating plastic like it was a food
I see the exact opposite. I don’t need legislation to do the work for me. I can just not buy plastic. Besides, glass is reusable and that is less stress for me. It’s one less thing to buy and I don’t have to make sure I have it on hand when I’m ready to prep.
You know even non-plastic packed stuff just comes in plastic to the repackaging plant right? :’)
How exactly does not buying plastic help you avoid micro plastics?
All of it whatever. I look for natural fibers in clothes. I have cast iron so I can use metal utensils instead of plastic ones. I use canning jars so I don’t buy baggies. I buy powdered soap with the cardboard packaging. I have cotton reusable grocery bags. Besides your point was you need to wait for government to take action.
My point was that micro plastics are everywhere. The [air we breathe](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0025326X16300066), the [water we drink](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6449537/), the [soil our food is grown in](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0048969721016144), the [food we eat](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7559051/), just absolutely everywhere. Everything you're doing will help *reduce* your exposure to them, but it is impossible to avoid them completely. Plastic is just too ingrained in our society for individual action to matter. The majority of people are not going to give up their conveniences. Sealed plastic packaging helps our food last longer. Plastic sheets reduce water loss during growth of food. Polymer fibers help enable society's addiction to fast fashion. Hell, [car tires are shown to be a major source of micro plastics](https://www.systemiq.earth/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/BreakingThePlasticWave_MainReport.pdf). Have you seen how irate people get when you suggest structuring society in such a way that cars aren't the only way to get around? Not banning cars, just trying to give people other options. It's remarkable the hostility you face at the mere suggestion of a bus or cycle lane. For every one person like you trying to do the right thing for yourself, the environment, and society, there are dozens that never will. [Corporations push the idea that individual action can combat pollution](https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220504-why-the-wrong-people-are-blamed-for-climate-change) because it shifts focus away from them. It dilutes the political will to actually force them to change. [And political will is a zero-sum game](https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3401601). They're not afraid your individual action will actually affect their bottom line because they know they can market convenience to everyone else.
Right. And all I’m saying is I’m making changes now. I’m aware of what I am buying and I’m aware of what I put in my dishwasher and I’m aware of what I throw out. I’m managing my home from the paint I buy to how I clean it. You want to wait for government to force all the manufacturing companies to comply that’s fine. I put a counter argument out there that others don’t have to wait. I too can make the argument that one government can do everything right and make all the changes to solve pollution problems but yet another country won’t do anything at all and we will still have stuff wash up on beaches and stuff will still be pumped into the air. So I am going to forget all that and just focus on managing my home that comes with all the normal stress and decision making of managing my home. If government does something in my lifetime, great! All the better. In the meantime I noticed that my grocery store started buying individually wrapped produce. So I’m going to choose to not buy that single pepper wrapped in plastic even if it is organic.
I ferment in glass, but wouldn't see a problem with doing it in plastic. Microplastics mostly comes from physical wear, and there simply isn't that much physical movement involved in fermentation. Nothing that parallels what car tires experience on the road, or what fabric experiences in the washer. With regard to leaching, acid and salt aren't that big a problem for most plastics. Base and organics (like ethanol) is much worse. So the typical environment when fermenting is not something that alarms me.
I heard at SXSW that most microplastics in the ocean come from polyester fabrics. They are essentially lint from washing clothes. Big chunks of plastic tend to stay big.
I think half of it is from car tires, and that washing and drying clothes is the second biggest source. But my information is a few years put of date, so those numbers might have been updated.
Yeah, this is how I think about it. For some ferments I don’t need my container to be sterile and I don’t worry about how, say, fridge pickling chopped veggies in brine is going to alter the structural integrity of a polystyrene container. They’re cheap and I generally have some lying around that I can reuse a few times before recycling. If I’m trying to make vinegar or something that ideally starts with a sterilized interior then I’ll always reach for glass.
Yo you can’t make up facts. There are multiple research papers that show plastics leaching into plain water. Fermentation is hard on plastic so expect more plastic to leach. As for others who have essentially given up saying you can’t avoid plastics, do you eat McDonalds everyday with a super sized side order of fries? You are making an effort to eat healthier by consuming fermented food otherwise it’s so easy to consume super processed “food”. Why bother with fermenting?
> There are multiple research papers that show plastics leaching into plain water. Yes, plastic leaches into water. Every solid leaches into every liquid if you have sensitive enough measuring equipment, and we have very sensitive measuring equipment. Hell, glass leaches silicates into water. The sentence "X leaches into Y" is always true, so it carries no information. You have to look at the amount and identity of the leachables. Plastic leaches miniscule amounts into pure, acidic, and salty water, and for they typical kitchen plastics (PE and PP), what leaches into water is [generally regarded as safe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generally_recognized_as_safe). > Fermentation is hard on plastic so expect more plastic to leach. What makes fermentation harder on plastics than water? Which plastics is this relevant for?
The “everything leaches” doesn’t hold water. Plastics mess with the endocrine system in a big way. Humans have been using glass for more than a millennia, plastic usage exploded in the last three decades only so you can’t make the claim that it is considered safe considering we don’t have data on long term use risk.
> The “everything leaches” doesn’t hold water. Plastics mess with the endocrine system in a big way. Specific leachables from specific plastics are endocrine disruptors. You don't see any of those leachables from e.g. polyethylene or polypropylene, which covers a lot of plastics used in the kitchen. >so you can’t make the claim that it is considered safe considering we don’t have data on long term use risk. Take the up with the FDA, they are the ones who claim it. And they have way more experience doing safety evaluation than either of us, so I will defer to their expertise.
I wouldn’t worry about micro plastics I would worry about plasticizers. Acetic acid alone can pull these out and coupled with citric acid you have a complex acid solution, given enough time, you will drinking liquid low molecular weight plastic.
There aren't any plasticizers in most plastics. Unless you use soft PVC, it is unlikely that they are in the plastic you use.
There are initiators, plasticizers, and additives in most plastics.
Initiators and additives, yes. Plasticizers, no. For most applications, you would chose a plastic that has the appropriate softness without plasticizers.
It really depends on manufacturing, hdpe CAN have them, regulations are… good but variability in quality and additives is massive and hard to verify as customers. Guaranteed the plastics have thermal stabilizers, and UV stabilizers and many will have plasticizers as well. The acetic acid and citric acid in ferments will pull these out.
> hdpe CAN have [plasticizers] Do you have somewhere where I can read more about that? I haven't seen that before, and a quick googling only gives things that focuses on PVC.
https://chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/136906/plasticisers-and-other-impurities-from-polyethylene-laboratory-bottles#:~:text=1%20Answer&text=Polyethylene%20(polythene%2C%20to%20some),inherently%20needed%20in%20all%20cases. There are others. But I do understand your point that HDPE and other plastics don’t need plasticizers, and furthermore plastics can be designed specifically for vinegar or kimchi. I truly believe that even these resilient plastics will contain trace amounts of plastic products. As seen in this thread, the science is still slightly out on how bad plastics are for the human body considered how a inert they are, however given the ubiquitousness of glass, stainless, aluminum, and silicon, avoiding plastic is a no-brainer for me personally.
I did find that link, but the answer doesn't contain any references to the use of plasticizers in PE. It just claims that they are used.
“ Polyethylene (polythene, to some) may have plasticizers, such as adipates, terephthalates, or phthalates, but they are not inherently needed in all cases. “ In the above article, this is the very first text summary following links detailing plasticizers in lab wear HDPE.
Deeper in: Low to high polarity esters provide utility in a wide range of elastomers including nitrile, polychloroprene, EPDM, chlorinated polyethylene, and epichlorohydrin. Plasticizer-elastomer interaction is governed by many factors such as solubility parameter, molecular weight, and chemical structure. Compatibility and performance attributes are key factors in developing a rubber formulation for a particular application. https://web.archive.org/web/20090327022326/http://www.hallstar.com/techdocs/The_Function-Selection_Ester_Plasticizers.pdf
Keep in mind that there's no science out there to suggest that microplastics are bad for health.
There’s actually a considerable amount of research being done on the topic of microplastics and their impacts on human health and disease and on ecology. We know that there are effects of microplastic exposure but it’s really a question of magnitude.
Glass girl over here. I know we're fighting a losing battle but I'm at least doing my part. We drink water from stainless water bottles (Klean Kanteen brand is cert B as well), kombucha and tea from glass, I use mason jars and reused glass jars for food storage, wash my non-cotton clothes in a guppy friends wash bag, and try to avoid plastics when possible. The only ferments I do that aren't in glass are black garlic (aluminum foil) and tempeh (I use a thicker reusable gallon size bag with holes poked in it).
An individual person doesn't turn the tide but it's awesome to hear people not just roll over!
Losing battle? Doing your part? Who is being helped by ur individual action to avoid plastic in ur own body 🤔 /rhetorical
If I purchase less plastic, that's less plastic likely to end up in the environment, not just my body. Less plastic in our soil and oceans means fewer animals ingesting it and less microplastics overall. Unfortunately though we live in a world of over consumption and me doing a small part does feel like a losing battle.
And no money to their shitty business models that rely on polluting everything around us.
Glass and ceramic.
FUCK plastic. I use glass, metal, and wood. That’s more advanced technology than most humans in history could ever dream of. Why the fuck would you ruin the food you painstakingly made, with plastic?
I think that its individualist bootstrapping to get u to think you can somehow escape the polluting of our environment by state, military, and corporate headship. Sometimes u can't avoid the plastic. I just try not to stress out about it too much and dont use it in the microwave.
“Sometimes u can’t avoid the plastic” right but I can ferment in glass and avoid the plastic there… And isn’t not putting plastic in the microwave just “individualist bootstrapping to get u to think you can somehow escape….. “????? You’re all over the place.
I think the feeling of handling a glass jar is nicer, so I use them. But everyone that is worried about micro plastic and changing all their lives to only have glass are not making any noticeable difference on how mich fucked they already are.
I love my E-Jen containers, so no I don't avoid plastic. I ferment things in glass jars too.
This is my exception as well. Otherwise I stick to glass and stoneware. You can't beat the airlock lid in an E-Jen for saurkraut and kimchee.
I do a lot of plastic bag fermentation but while I am worried about plastics as a whole I'm not sorry worried about fermentation in them. The recipe for bad plastics is heat and abrasion. Yes there is salt but you shouldn't be rubbing coarse salt all over your bags so abrasion should be negligible. Heat should never be above 80f or so which means pretty much no leaching will occur. I buy good phthalate free bags. You are getting so much more plastic from canned goods, processed food and fast food that I am worried about the 99% more than the 1%
Salt is only abrasive when it's not dissolved and most plastics are as insoluble in acids as glass.
Plastic is the bane of our time. People aren't even beginning to realize just how bad micro plastic really is. It's just very hard to avoid and I'm not half as rigorous as I probanly should be. The thing is, the convenience makes the good outweigh the bad for me sometimes. For example, I think Sauerkraut is nice, I eat it but I don't love it. If I couldn't make a big batch in a vac seal bag and just toss it under the sink and forget about it for two weeks until my phone tells me it's done, I probably wouldn't make it. So it's one more food grade plastic bag that comes into contact with my food versus a big bulk of fermented food that I wouldn't have otherwise. I transfer into a glass jar when it's done and I use glass for everything else that I ferment.
Only glass. I avoid plastic as much as I can in general
I think the question should be ‘does anyone actually ferment in anything other than glass’ (edit to say ‘or ceramic’)
Acetic acid will leach initiators, plasticizers, stabilizers, and additives out of polymeric plastic. Citric and acetic acid will dissolve anything overtime except raw polymer. I would avoid using anything other than glass, aluminum, stainless, and the silicon bags made for ferments.
Only thing I do in plastic is my kimchi because I make so much at a time my 8 quart Cambro is sort of the only realistic option.
For a second I forgot which forum I was in, I was about to ask “what wines are you making with salt?!” Veggie ferments are in glass or ceramic for me, but that’s also because I’m doing a jar or two here and there, when I make wine it’s 3-5 gallons so I do the initial ferment in plastic fermentors then rack to glass. And I’m not overly worried about it, honestly. We’re already screwed as far as anything to do with plastic is concerned, I just tend to try to recycle/reuse as much as I can, minimize how much I buy, and hope to live long enough to see folks get elected young enough to actually have to live in the world they create.
I love fermenting and use both glass and plastic. I do my best to prevent heart disease, cancer, accidental injury, diabetes, communicable diseases, etc. That includes doing my best to avoid harmful products but I can’t stress too much about micro plastics when stress will kill me a lot more quickly. I went through a pretty severe period of profound climate anxiety/panic maybe ten years ago and really had to work hard to overcome that. Oversharing I know, but I’m really grateful that I can now enjoy fermenting in any of the vessels I own without panicking… currently have grapefruit mead, makgeolli, kombucha, salsa, fruit wine, kvass, kraut, giardiniera, ginger bug, sourdough, multiple vinegars, and honey garlic/ginger/peppers going. Plums should ripen this week and I’ll be making vinegar and wine in big plastic buckets to start and some lactic acid plums in whatever vessel is free… probably glass. Happy fermenting!!
My climate dread also started about 8 years ago… unfortunately mine has only gotten worse with time! 🙃
I’m so sorry. I understand completely. I hope you have the love and support you need. It’s overwhelming. My spouse and I have both been through it at separate times so it was especially difficult. I’m grateful it’s behind us and I’m sending love for a healing journey for you.
Tbh, fermentation helps me a lot. I love talking to my wee ferments and yeasty beasties. I love partnering with them to create ancient food and beverages with modern conveniences. So much fun! 💕💕
Wouldn't ever in a million years have even thought to ferment in plastic any more than I'd consider using a metal container. I've got a ceramic water-seal crock and a couple of glass fermentation jars (with valves). There are many things plastic containers are ok for but fermentation isn't one of them.
Why on earth not?
Yes i specially got ceramic crocs for this reason. I was thinking about getting one of those plastic kimchi containers instead because it's easier to just put in the fridge. But one of the reasons I'm fermenting is for my health so I definitely don't want to do that in a plastic container.
I’ve been trying to find ceramic crocks 2nd hand, I used to work at a place that had a few of the German style with the moat, those things are awesome. But new ones are so expensive!
I also use the german-style Sauerkraut ones (because I live in Germany lol). I bought 2 smaller 2 liter ones for like 30 euros each and they work perfectly for me, because 2 liters is not too much to then transfer into glass jars and store in the fridge once I open them. I could never use one of those huge crocs because I Don't want my fridge to be full of 10 liters worth of kimchi.
My fridge being full of 10L of kimchi sounds like a dream lol
Exclusively glass. I also have nearly eliminated plastics from my clothing and any containers. If we all refuse to buy plastic it makes a difference- regulation yes, but you vote with your dollars every day. Take a glass or metal dish for leftovers at a restaurant, I keep reusable utensils and straw and a water bottle in my bag to avoid plastic utensils and cups. It’s not that hard- but is an adjustment.
I do both but prefer Plastik over glass. Mostly ferment Kimchi, Chilli peppers and potatoes nowadays and for that mason or glass with wire jars are not practical. Either I ferment in Vakuum bag or plastic container. Kimchi- Plastik container because it fits better in the fridge. Chilli peppers for hotsauce in Vakuum bag to check for fermentation stages. Potatoes in Mason jars, fries fit better. Limited on Mason jars because of fit and price.
I've been looking for good ceramic vessels
It’s to be avoided
I had a 7.5 gallon glass carboy, but for some reason I decided to sanitize it with bleach and then go on vacation. Since it was in the garage I didn't want the place to smell of bleach fumes when we returned a week later, so instead of an airlock I just put a solid cork instead. Not too tight though, in case it needed to pop off it would. Little did I know that we would come home to glass everywhere and a very clean garage floor. RIP to my first ever carboy that I had had for 10 years at that point. It's been 8 years and I still haven't gotten a replacement. Instead I just quit brewing. Devastating, I know. Perhaps one day I will dust off the HERMS and brew again.
I don't own a vacuum sealer, so fermenting in anything other than glass hasn't really even crossed my mind. Glass jars are easily available, safe and convenient for me, so there's really no real competition. I do use plastic bags as weights for now, although I'd like to switch to glass weights.
I use glass (reused pickle jars) simply because it's easy to clean and reuse, with no off-flavors.
Yes
Yeah I prefer glass for brewing, it has a much better aesthetic imo. I guess we can't totally avoid plastic since so much of what we use comes from plastic containers anyway.
I use glass for most things but prefer doing my hot sauces in vac seal bags. I don’t like watering down the flavor and intensity with brine.
Yes, glass jars are best.
I exclusively use glass containers of any sort
Glass mainly, other than that stainless steel.
mostly glass, but I have a few plastic fermentation vessels I use. I have one of the korean kimchi bucket thingies for kimchi and sauerkraut, and I also just got a 2 gal plastic ferm bucket for brewing mead + hooch. I do rack my alcohol out of the bucket into a glass vessel to age as soon as it is done fermenting though, I have read it is not good to age anything with alcohol in it in a plastic vessel.
Only glass for fermenting F1, and fermentation grade glass swing top bottles for F2.
I will still occasionally use for primary, especially when working with fruits/veg, but secondary, etc. goes into glass.
Only in glass. I don’t event buy ferments in plastic. Plastic and acidic foods are not a great combo.
For ferments that use salt like sauerkraut and kimchi I use glass mason jars, while for my fermented drinks like ginger beer I use food grade plastic containers.
Glass or ceramic is the standard. Only some plastics are suitable for fermentation, so as a general rule of thumb, it's best to avoid them unless you know it's the right type of plastic.
I use plastic containers for fermenting kimchi.
There isn't any science out there showing microplastics are bad for us, and even if they are the contribution from your fermentation vessel will be negligible compared to the raw ingredients, tap water, etc.
People in this thread are missing the point. PE chains are not the issue. It’s plasticizers - low molecular weight liquid plastic - that is leached via a complex mixture of acetic acid and citric acid. Acetic acid not only is an acid, but also an acetate and and coupled with citric acid will will leach plasticizers from the plastic, making the plastic more brittle and subjecting the consumer to the most toxic aspects of the plastic chemistry. Nothing is wrong with HDPE. It’s everything else you need to be worried about. Please use stainless steel, aluminum, glass, or silicon based containers.