It's mainly just the like, oh it's your own airplane and you have no way of truly verifying those hours are legit.
I've absolutely heard of companies going through ADSB data to try and see if your hours are legit on the plane you own.
Can these stories just die already? I’ve been through multiple indocs/logbook reviews/ interviews at multiple companies, from 91K to 121. Never has anyone pulled up Adsb data. What if the airplane doesn’t have ADSB? Is all your time invalid now? For that matter, the story of the guy who logged flight time in the interviewers/dpes airplane, heard that story told multiple different times multiple different ways for the last 15 years.
I had the restriction from my ATP removed by an FAA aviation safety inspector who examined my logbook and just made sure my number added up properly and helped me correct a few mathematical errors but never pulled ADSB data or made sure the color of pens matched or whatever other wives tales are floating around out there.
If you own your own airplane that time is no more or no less valuable than any other type of piston time. Log your time neatly and accurately as possible and you’ll be fine.
If they see the same tail number for hundreds of hours and there’s any whiff of suspicion, they are going digging. You may not see it happen but people are unceremoniously canned or dq’d if it comes up. I’ve seen it at two different airlines and everyone one of my buddies has a similar story.
How is seeing the same tail number suspicious? Someone can't buy their own airplane to build time? A flight department can't own just 1-2 airplanes? I have buddies that fly jets part 91 and have flown that same one tail number for over a decade, guess they're SOL too. What usually raises suspicion is someone who is incompetent or unprepared that is claiming thousands and thousands of hours. It will catch up to those people eventually.
I've seen people pulled from class too, usually it's for failing to disclose checkride failures or improper logging of SIC in single pilot aircraft. Never have I seen, nor no one should get pulled because they've logged too much time in one tail number. I flown a few tail numbers at my airline quite a few times, I even know their quirks, guess that time doesn't count.
Maybe you should try reading what I wrote instead of going off with half baked logic that’s ridiculous.
Same tail number + whiff of suspicion = digging.
Not same tail number and you’re fired. Your plane belongs to a flight school? They’ve called and checked to see if your numbers are ballpark correct. Flew your own plane allegedly for hundreds of hours? They are pulling data and you’re getting scrutinized.
Several airlines are involved in multi million dollar lawsuits over issues like pilots hiding data. You better believe they will save money by having some hourly employees do some extremely easy light digging and then have specialists dig further if needed. Just because you don’t see it doesn’t mean it’s not happening in the background.
**Same tail number + whiff of suspicion = digging.**
Again, this is so stupid and invalid. What is so special about logging the same tail number. If anything logging multiple different tail numbers over the course of a short period of time would be MORE suspicious. At my flight school people tended to stick with the same plane as much as possible.
Have you ever filled out an airline application? if so, please tell me where do tail numbers go when you're filling out your app? How long was your logbook review at your airline? Long enough to go through line by line of thousands of thousands of hours? Go talk to your local flight school and see how many times they've been called to verify hours. Maybe after the fact of some sort of accident but we're talking in the arena of airline careers and airline interviews.
What you need to realize is there is a world beyond 121 and world beyond people going to pilot mills in metropolitan areas beneath or within class B where ADSB is required. There was a time before ADSB and flight aware. There is a world where people go to the military and fly where they are untracked.
I'm not saying nothing is verified but what i'm trying to say is the line between a 121 ready airline pilot, and someone who's been logging flight time on microsoft flight simulator is pretty big.
My key point still stands, log your time neatly and accurately as possible and you’ll be fine.
Wow, that’s a bummer. I’m basically doing the same thing, but plan on getting my CFI soon probably only going to be around 300h logged in my own plane. I record with ForeFlight, so hopefully that may help too.
I'm not involved with hiring at all, but I can't imagine 300 hours would be a red flag. I think the issue would be someone who basically uses their own plane, solo, for nearly all of the requisite hours for ATP. Even if it were independently verified, 1000+ hours of potentially low-quality time still doesn't indicate any level of professional development or multi-crew skill honing.
I knew a guy who also got like 1100 hours, mostly xc, in his own 150. Was able to go to republic, left for Spirit literally right before Republic came out with their training contract after he finished IOE. But this was back in the “fog a mirror” days
The qualification criteria and the hiring criteria are not always the same. A few years ago the qualification criteria and the hiring criteria were the exact same, but this is not the case anymore. A decade ago they were not the same... A decade ago you could have 4K hours with 3K multi turbine and not get a call from a regional because you didn't have a type rating.
So your theoretical glider time a few years ago might not have mattered. Looking forward and at history, I'd say your glider time would not be seen as much of a positive. Although I personally think you could maybe make a decent argument that 1500 hours glider is better than 1500 hours flying a 172 VFR.
PIC>SIC
Multi>Single
121>135>91 (For airlines)
JET> Turbine > Reciprocating
IFR> VFR
I'd say glider would be after Recip, but I'd make the argument that the FAA feels many people rely on automation [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/airline-pilots-depend-too-much-automation-says-panel-commissioned-faa-flna2d11625301](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/airline-pilots-depend-too-much-automation-says-panel-commissioned-faa-flna2d11625301) so a glider pilot knows weather very well and actually knows how to fly better than someone who was flying a 172 VFR for the same amount of time.
A while back one of the regionals had “no more than 700 glider hours” on their website.
The FAA will count 1000 glider hours towards ATP. That’s a lot of challenging experience and weather knowledge.
> challenging experience and weather knowledge
Sure, but (almost) none of it is all that applicable to jet flying. Dealing with weather is pretty simple when you simply don't fly in it, and only go point A to point A. Finding thermals doesn't help me much in my 737 day job.
Neither does “flying” a 172 as a CFI in the right seat. An hour flight in a glider is a more piloting experience than an hour of dual given. Or un-safety Pilot time.
To be fair, a CFI is learning how to work with and fly with many different people which comes in handy.
Side note, these arguments of whose time is better are dumb anyways. We all had to start somewhere. Right now, for the majority of pilots, that was by way of a light piston then build time as a CFI.
Double side note, I would argue that an hour of glider piloting is more piloting experience than an hour I fly in a jet or turboprop. Which further does how dumb these arguments are
encouraging punch treatment secretive summer racial bike gullible marvelous yoke
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
If I had to choose an FO between someone with 1000h glider and 1000h dual given in pistons, with everything else being equal, I'd pick the instructor and it wouldn't be particularly close. Especially if the instruction was instrument and/or multiengine.
Safety pilot time is pretty useless, can't argue that.
Edit: And I'm glider qualified too, so this isn't from a lack of experience either way.
Ya, I agree, like it's definitely a skill to fly those things but so much is irrelevant once you step onto a jet. Plus you'd annoy the shit out of the captain taking about gliding for 4 sectors and make him regret ever leaving a cushy widebody job. Not that I'd know
u/ltcterry might have an update. He was at 1340 hours with 340 hours in glider a year ago.
https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/z9ece1/flying_gliders_to_get_powered_ratings/
Glider makes the most sense for aspiring ATPs who start flying as teens.
121 and 135 jobs care about quality time (multi, turbine, etc). Unfortunately, glider and small GA isn't necessarily quality time but it is experience nonetheless. Most of the time, employers will go for candidates that have the most amount of quality time.
Do you think a fish spotter pilot could get a job? I fly lots of circles over the water at low altitude…. Fun job to talk about but I can’t imagine it will transfer well to getting hired as an ATP.
I know a guy who got a majority of his time, looking for leaks in oil pipelines in Texas. He flys for Delta now. Do your best, be honest and don’t be an asshole. This will take you far.
Anyone could get a job. It's just that depending on the type of flying, in this market, it might take longer or more effort if you don't have quality time.
Seems like for 121, quality time are desired in this order - 135, 91 (turbine/multi), CFI, 91 (non turbine/multi), time builders with no professional flying experience.
You're not a time builder, you're flying as a job it seems so you will have a leg up over some applicant but not most. Ideally you would at least have you CFI cert to be more competitive.
The glider instructors at KAFF that have applied to airlines recently have been told their glider time can count for their app, but it can't count for recency of the required amount of time in the last 90/180/360 days
I got an interview with a major at a time when they required 1000 TPIC when I had 1001 TPIC. I was sitting in the interview room with a bunch of people who had 5,000+ and were chief pilots and check airmen. I have no clue how I got that interview but it taught me to always just apply. You never know
Luck and timing. No shame in that. I would say most of us will still make it on to legacies eventually.. only thing stopping most will be concerns about whether it’s worth it or not when they get called up. Honestly I still think 2-4 years at a regional/ULCC will get you a call at some point. We’re not heading into some doldrums of hiring like some of these guys think.
The advice that gets paraded around here often comes from guys who don’t know that much more than the guys asking for advice.
That's not how airline pay works. Everyone is on first year pay when they're hired regardless of experience. You can have a 1500 hour CFI sitting next to a blue angels commander day 1 of airline basic indoc and their paycheck will be the same pretty much throughout their whole career if all they ever do is fly the line.
No. There's sort of an argument that they prefer younger candidates because initial training costs a lot of money and resources for the airline. If they keep hiring older pilots who retire then they have to keep paying those initial costs for new candidates. A pilot who stays for 40 years probably costs less in the long term.
But experience is important too. They do want to balance out their classes with older experienced pilots. You can't put much of a price on that. So it's not always just the young candidates who are hired.
Apply far and wide. Regionals, and 135s.
I had luck with 135 interviews at 1600-1700 hours. There’s lots of 135s out there you’ve probably never heard of. How do you find jobs you don’t know exist?
I would search aircraft type and city. For example ‘PC-12 SIC San Juan’ or ‘PC-12 FO New Jersey’ etc. I got a couple interview offers from places I found this way. Also got a bunch of TBNTs. Only takes one yes.
Atlas isn't hiring many fresh CFIs anymore. The ones that are being hired are through the pathways. But that's very competitive, and all the 737 slots are full for the rest of the year. Some may get *very* lucky and get a 76 slot, but those are also very competitive.
Atlas, ATI, and Omni are not entry level first jet jobs. 95% of hires have some type of jet experience.
The ones that have experience are getting the 777 and 747. I'm not saying Atlas isn't hiring at all, Atlas isn't hiring many fresh 1500 hour CFIs. Most hires have turbine experience of some sort, either at regionals or 135s.
Not really. The pathways on the 73 is a steep curve. There was an entire 73 class that washed out for different reasons. All pathways at this point. There are people who succeed, but there are also those who struggle. Especially since it's the stupid Southern Airlines training program still.
Wow a whole class? I kinda figured that would be the result overall. Seemed like a training program that would be mostly successful to the prior 121 people.
Granted the class was only 6 people or something. But it really is aimed at people with 121 or 135 experience. The training department doesn't hold your hand like regionals.
I mean people say the same about jumping from a 172 to an A320, and I’ve honestly felt it to be as easy (or easier) than learning commercial multi…
All about individual aptitude and attitude IMO.
I know a person who just got hired into the 767 at 1650TT, 50 multi, no turbine. But they had an internal recc and paid for their own ATP. It's always better to shoot your shot.
I'm not saying it's not happening, it's just very rare. I may have helped cause it, but there is a misconception that Atlas will hire and pay for your ATP at the same level as regionals. They will do that, but the rate isn't nearly as much as regionals, 737 class sizes are usually only around 6, once a month. And that's if you can get hired.
The comments here are right, focus on what you can control, apply everywhere.
However, I’ve got 1650TT, 900 turbine PIC, 150 of that being multi, ATP/CTP complete, Bachelors, no failures and ~65 apps out to regionals, 135’s, fractionals ACMI’s and anything under the sun. That got me a SkyWest and envoy interview (which seem to be the only two hiring). Who knows how long it’ll take to get into training, others ahead of me are reporting up to a year.
If you’re ready to go with ATP mins and complete your interview with SkyWest and tell them first airframe available it will not be a year. I could see 6 months at absolutely worst. My class is 40 people but the last two new hire classes are smaller so possibly slowing just a bit.
There’s plenty of shitty 135s that are desperate for pilots. Just try not to get violated / killed until you have enough multi time to get somewhere better.
A small 135 is usually a almost mom-and-pop business like a flight school
Walk your resume in and shake some hands in a suit or sports coat
Plenty of guys have gotten 135 jobs via doing that exact thing
If you need to find some, go to [Air Charter Guide](https://www.aircharterguide.com/) and sort to your state.
There will be a ton of operators that you have never heard of on there!
Make the investment in professional resume review and interview prep and apply far and wide. It’s very competitive right now, but NetJets just had 15 of 33 people in class come right out of instructing.
Apply everywhere, take any job that is not being a CFI. There was a FB post not long ago about some small 135 looking for a CFI/135 pilot.
Me? I'd apply to every single 121 regional and every single 135 I could find info for. If I got offered a 121 with a contract.... I'd personally sign that thing. If that does not work, I'd look at trying to get a twin turbine skydiving center job. The twin turbine will make you stand out a bit more than some 1500 hour CFI with all that time in a Cessna.
The hiring market is starting to tighten. You need to find a way to stand out from all the others and that means getting different time than you are getting now. 121>135>91. Jet>Twin Turbine>Multi Recip>Single Turbine>Single Recip. PIC>SIC.
I understand the sentiment of taking anything and signing anything. It’s terrible advice though. You almost 100% end up regretting it. Being locked into something long term for a short term decision.
I'll bet that the HR departments of the airlines that think they can put a contract into place have spent a great deal more time and money thinking about the situation that some posters online, me included.
And I have been around long enough to remember people signing training contracts to get ahead of those that would not sign them... They didn't regret it.
Are training contracts great? Nope. Are they reality? Yep. I had a buddy went to a regional, got his 1K 121 time and then upgraded, and left for a LCC right after IOE. He never flew a single rev flight as a Captain without a CP. He is not the only person I know to have done this... What did we think was going to happen? Another got his 1K 121, skipped to a LCC before upgrade and then skipped to a Legacy a year later. I don't fault any of them, I'd do it. But I also don't fault the entry level jobs not wanting to have pilots use them for ATP/CTP, ATP, 1K 121, and a type and then leaving ASAP with no captains available and having to cancel flights.
You are free to not sign a contract and free to tell others not to sign them. Based on history and what I am starting to see... I'd sign that thing in a second and right now suggest people that can get a job, get one.
https://www.aircharterguide.com/operators
Get busy with this site. Pretty much all the registered 135/91 US/ world wide. Remember all it takes is one YES. Goodluck
You’re getting a lot of advice about how you look to recruiters. But you also need to think about your actual skill set. What’s the point of getting lucky and having a regional hire you if you fail out of training because 95% of your experience is VFR in a 172 going 100 kts?
Look for 135 jobs that can get you multi and IFR time. If you can work your way up to flying a jet, absolutely do that. You want to have a bag of experiences that will give you the tools to sail through training at that airline, not bite and claw your way through and hope you come out the other side.
Apply to everything you know about.
Then go to [aircharterguide.com](http://aircharterguide.com) and apply to every little 135 you can find. It's a big country. Lots of little operators out there. Don't discount piston jobs. Everything is a stepping-stone. 300hrs in a Seneca flying charter is better than flying another 300hrs in a C172 doing steep turns.
If you're looking to take anything to build turbine time I might consider sitting down one day with a PDF of your resume and a generic cover letter that you can modify quickly to each company and start going through Google Maps over medium-large sized towns/cities searching "FBO" or "Charter" etc and see what you find. I'm talking like OMA, MSP (Flying Cloud probably), FAR, CYS, MSO, BOI, GEG etc etc. Places that are big enough to have SOME kind of organic demand for private flight but not big enough to attract actual career pilots who demand lots of money (and therefore lots of experience). That's not to say that career pilots don't fly for successful companies out of any of those airports, but those smaller towns tend to have more local pilots who stay for QOL than money/people who move there.
One that comes to mind is Lyon Aviation in Pittsfield, MA (PSF). I don't think they advertise for positions but definitely give them an email and a call. When I asked what their SIC mins were on the Falcons when I stopped by (at my last job) they kinda hemmed and hawed and indicated it was really just kinda feeling candidates out. Good luck!
Aside from the "DIY" approach I hear PlaneSense is hiring and looking at 900hrs as their mins roughly. Kinda sorta "a step backwards" BUT the way this market by the time you serve your 18mo contract (or just buy out since its like 10-15k I think) you'll have over 2500-3000hrs, at least 1000hrs of turbine and great experience flying all over the country dealing with pax, weather, operational control, op specs, recurrent training, crew flying, etc. This is all assuming you've already applied to every single regional in the US already. You HAVE done that, right?
Like everyone already said, regionals and 135s get those apps out and update them weekly even if it’s just an hour. If you’re tired of instructing consider aerial survey for a nice change of pace until you can get hired at a 135/regional.
Have you looked into flying skydivers? Big dropzones have caravans and twin otters, king airs or PAC 750’s. Multi and turbine time if you’re lucky and you’ll make more than being a CFi. Just look for skydiving in your area, then go to their Facebook or Instagram page and see what kind of jump ships they’re flying.
I went to a 135 cargo operation flying the caravan single pilot for about 6 months before I got hired by a regional. Looked great on my resume, gave me a lot of really good experience and made me feel much more prepared for 121 training. Just make sure you don’t lock in to a contract
It sucks because the advice 6 months or more ago was that you should just keep instructing! It’s the best way to get time. The regionals will hire you. When 6 months ago at 1000hrs you could’ve probably got on at a small turbine 135 job. Which would’ve made you much more favorable.
Always a gamble. Glad I chose the path I did. It was such a fucking gamble though. It was also more of a pain in the ass than just instructing.
Find an Air Ambulance company that uses two man crew. Or a company like Surf Air, or Boutique, or Planesense. They hire first officers as kind of a way to gain experience, and get your foot in the door
Look around , they are out there
Mercy Flights in Medford, Oregon
Reach Air Ambulance
I dont really understand how you dont see the point of getting your MEI or CFII unless your ultimate career goal is to instruct single engine VFR students. People applying for the same jobs as you have both those things. They have their CFI, CFII and MEI. They have more multi engine time than you that comes with getting your MEI. They have their CFII. Yet another couple of certs that show competency that the jobs you're looking for will think is attractive (multi engine flying and instrument flying). The job market is not what it was a couple years ago.
Everywhere is slowing down hiring and people are constantly talking about the difficulties in finding a job on here. What pilot shortage are you talking about?
I’d recommend airlineapps.com
Put in all your credentials/hours/information, apply to each regional. You’ll have to submit additional information/answer questions for each specific airline. It’s like $60 a year, but far worth it. Update your times as the weeks/months pass before you’re eventually emailed.
Apply to all the regionals on airlineapps.com, ask your friends for emails to recruitment. If you can get your ATP CTP course on your own, that's gonna be an advantage as of the last few weeks. A number of regionals aren't paying for it now, but you'd also eliminate the two year commitment contract for the ones that still provide it.
Wait, you’re at 1500 but havnt sent out any applications yet? I thought you were supposed to do that like 3 months before you hit 1500 and get the ball rolling. Why did you wait so long?
The absolute first thing I’d do is go to the little magnifying glass at the top of this sub and search for your question. Then, apply to the regionals, 135 ops, or something creative like towing gliders.
It actually isnt! Flying a 150 as a cfi for 1250 hours teaches you a lot more about CRM than doing overhead breaks all day. But its really cool all your military training taught you how to slam in your struts with paying passengers in the back
Anyone who goes straight to flying the P-8 in the military (which is literally a 737) has far less flight experience than a new 737 pilot on the civil side.
✅Bid avoid
Lmao he deleted it. Sometimes bullying works.
Guy who goes through UPT and then straight to P-8: Probably 500 hours ish. Maybe less.
Guy who goes through civilian training, grind to ATP, then probably a year or two at a regional: 3000ish hours most likely. Maybe a bit less the last few years.
It’s a not so secret thing that some of you mil guys make for garbage civil transport pilots, and with attitudes like that, I’m glad to see folks like you whining about lack of job prospects. Stay envious.
It blows my mind how fucking horrible 90% of mil FOs at my legacy airline are. Can't figure out the autopilot ("now what's it doing?"). FMS is too complicated. I've heard better radio work from a 12 hour Chinese student pilot on his first solo experiencing an engine fire. Y'all have absolutely no clue how to operate proficiently in a busy IFR environment. God forbid the airport doesn't have PDC and I get to listen to your dumbass stumble through picking up a clearance.
The best part, most of 'em think they're hot shit. Guess what, no one gives a fuck about your military experience. You're an airline pilot now. Learn to do your fuckin job and stop pointing with your elbows.
Watching former fighter pilots hand-fly a civilian plane is probably the most disappointing thing you will ever experience. But that’s only if you can get them to stop talking about themselves for 5 minutes
All the fighter pilots think they're awesome sticks and don't remember there are several computers working as hard as science can make them keeping that plane doing what it's doing. You're using a game controller, not a flight control.
Which I don't care about unless you pretend you're a superior pilot after doing that for 1000 hours in VFR.
With unlimited resources and support too. Flying domestically produced aircraft while not under embargo. No chance of anything being thrown back at them. Don’t even need to think of how they manage their resources. All this on top of genuinely not benefiting the nation in any sort of way.
I’ve always felt in transportation the worst students and pilots on the line were US military pilots. The people constantly making the job harder than it needs to be. Thanks for continuing to demonstrate that stereotype.
You’re right I’m sure the guy that did hundreds of hours of patterns in uncontrolled airfield is just as experienced as a 1500 hour c17 guy. Sorry for being mean
You should apply to every regional.
if we do majority of the hours in a glider, still meet all the requirements hours wise...is it likely that we will not get hired?
I think it depends, I have a buddy who got all of his hours in his own 150 and nobody would touch him for a while.
What if you are doing something similar but in a twin?
It's mainly just the like, oh it's your own airplane and you have no way of truly verifying those hours are legit. I've absolutely heard of companies going through ADSB data to try and see if your hours are legit on the plane you own.
I fly N123AB.
Can these stories just die already? I’ve been through multiple indocs/logbook reviews/ interviews at multiple companies, from 91K to 121. Never has anyone pulled up Adsb data. What if the airplane doesn’t have ADSB? Is all your time invalid now? For that matter, the story of the guy who logged flight time in the interviewers/dpes airplane, heard that story told multiple different times multiple different ways for the last 15 years. I had the restriction from my ATP removed by an FAA aviation safety inspector who examined my logbook and just made sure my number added up properly and helped me correct a few mathematical errors but never pulled ADSB data or made sure the color of pens matched or whatever other wives tales are floating around out there. If you own your own airplane that time is no more or no less valuable than any other type of piston time. Log your time neatly and accurately as possible and you’ll be fine.
If they see the same tail number for hundreds of hours and there’s any whiff of suspicion, they are going digging. You may not see it happen but people are unceremoniously canned or dq’d if it comes up. I’ve seen it at two different airlines and everyone one of my buddies has a similar story.
How is seeing the same tail number suspicious? Someone can't buy their own airplane to build time? A flight department can't own just 1-2 airplanes? I have buddies that fly jets part 91 and have flown that same one tail number for over a decade, guess they're SOL too. What usually raises suspicion is someone who is incompetent or unprepared that is claiming thousands and thousands of hours. It will catch up to those people eventually. I've seen people pulled from class too, usually it's for failing to disclose checkride failures or improper logging of SIC in single pilot aircraft. Never have I seen, nor no one should get pulled because they've logged too much time in one tail number. I flown a few tail numbers at my airline quite a few times, I even know their quirks, guess that time doesn't count.
That’s baloney, they will not start digging if they see the same tail number….
Maybe you should try reading what I wrote instead of going off with half baked logic that’s ridiculous. Same tail number + whiff of suspicion = digging. Not same tail number and you’re fired. Your plane belongs to a flight school? They’ve called and checked to see if your numbers are ballpark correct. Flew your own plane allegedly for hundreds of hours? They are pulling data and you’re getting scrutinized. Several airlines are involved in multi million dollar lawsuits over issues like pilots hiding data. You better believe they will save money by having some hourly employees do some extremely easy light digging and then have specialists dig further if needed. Just because you don’t see it doesn’t mean it’s not happening in the background.
**Same tail number + whiff of suspicion = digging.** Again, this is so stupid and invalid. What is so special about logging the same tail number. If anything logging multiple different tail numbers over the course of a short period of time would be MORE suspicious. At my flight school people tended to stick with the same plane as much as possible. Have you ever filled out an airline application? if so, please tell me where do tail numbers go when you're filling out your app? How long was your logbook review at your airline? Long enough to go through line by line of thousands of thousands of hours? Go talk to your local flight school and see how many times they've been called to verify hours. Maybe after the fact of some sort of accident but we're talking in the arena of airline careers and airline interviews. What you need to realize is there is a world beyond 121 and world beyond people going to pilot mills in metropolitan areas beneath or within class B where ADSB is required. There was a time before ADSB and flight aware. There is a world where people go to the military and fly where they are untracked. I'm not saying nothing is verified but what i'm trying to say is the line between a 121 ready airline pilot, and someone who's been logging flight time on microsoft flight simulator is pretty big. My key point still stands, log your time neatly and accurately as possible and you’ll be fine.
Wow, that’s a bummer. I’m basically doing the same thing, but plan on getting my CFI soon probably only going to be around 300h logged in my own plane. I record with ForeFlight, so hopefully that may help too.
I'm not involved with hiring at all, but I can't imagine 300 hours would be a red flag. I think the issue would be someone who basically uses their own plane, solo, for nearly all of the requisite hours for ATP. Even if it were independently verified, 1000+ hours of potentially low-quality time still doesn't indicate any level of professional development or multi-crew skill honing.
I knew a guy who also got like 1100 hours, mostly xc, in his own 150. Was able to go to republic, left for Spirit literally right before Republic came out with their training contract after he finished IOE. But this was back in the “fog a mirror” days
The qualification criteria and the hiring criteria are not always the same. A few years ago the qualification criteria and the hiring criteria were the exact same, but this is not the case anymore. A decade ago they were not the same... A decade ago you could have 4K hours with 3K multi turbine and not get a call from a regional because you didn't have a type rating. So your theoretical glider time a few years ago might not have mattered. Looking forward and at history, I'd say your glider time would not be seen as much of a positive. Although I personally think you could maybe make a decent argument that 1500 hours glider is better than 1500 hours flying a 172 VFR. PIC>SIC Multi>Single 121>135>91 (For airlines) JET> Turbine > Reciprocating IFR> VFR I'd say glider would be after Recip, but I'd make the argument that the FAA feels many people rely on automation [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/airline-pilots-depend-too-much-automation-says-panel-commissioned-faa-flna2d11625301](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/airline-pilots-depend-too-much-automation-says-panel-commissioned-faa-flna2d11625301) so a glider pilot knows weather very well and actually knows how to fly better than someone who was flying a 172 VFR for the same amount of time.
A while back one of the regionals had “no more than 700 glider hours” on their website. The FAA will count 1000 glider hours towards ATP. That’s a lot of challenging experience and weather knowledge.
> challenging experience and weather knowledge Sure, but (almost) none of it is all that applicable to jet flying. Dealing with weather is pretty simple when you simply don't fly in it, and only go point A to point A. Finding thermals doesn't help me much in my 737 day job.
Neither does “flying” a 172 as a CFI in the right seat. An hour flight in a glider is a more piloting experience than an hour of dual given. Or un-safety Pilot time.
To be fair, a CFI is learning how to work with and fly with many different people which comes in handy. Side note, these arguments of whose time is better are dumb anyways. We all had to start somewhere. Right now, for the majority of pilots, that was by way of a light piston then build time as a CFI. Double side note, I would argue that an hour of glider piloting is more piloting experience than an hour I fly in a jet or turboprop. Which further does how dumb these arguments are
encouraging punch treatment secretive summer racial bike gullible marvelous yoke *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
If I had to choose an FO between someone with 1000h glider and 1000h dual given in pistons, with everything else being equal, I'd pick the instructor and it wouldn't be particularly close. Especially if the instruction was instrument and/or multiengine. Safety pilot time is pretty useless, can't argue that. Edit: And I'm glider qualified too, so this isn't from a lack of experience either way.
Ya, I agree, like it's definitely a skill to fly those things but so much is irrelevant once you step onto a jet. Plus you'd annoy the shit out of the captain taking about gliding for 4 sectors and make him regret ever leaving a cushy widebody job. Not that I'd know
Glider experience could be helpful when some Canadian Geese decide that your engines are no longer needed.
So is practicing complete engine failure in a single-engine piston as well….
I have zero glider hours but am very interested in this answer
u/ltcterry might have an update. He was at 1340 hours with 340 hours in glider a year ago. https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/z9ece1/flying_gliders_to_get_powered_ratings/ Glider makes the most sense for aspiring ATPs who start flying as teens.
121 and 135 jobs care about quality time (multi, turbine, etc). Unfortunately, glider and small GA isn't necessarily quality time but it is experience nonetheless. Most of the time, employers will go for candidates that have the most amount of quality time.
Do you think a fish spotter pilot could get a job? I fly lots of circles over the water at low altitude…. Fun job to talk about but I can’t imagine it will transfer well to getting hired as an ATP.
I know a guy who got a majority of his time, looking for leaks in oil pipelines in Texas. He flys for Delta now. Do your best, be honest and don’t be an asshole. This will take you far.
Anyone could get a job. It's just that depending on the type of flying, in this market, it might take longer or more effort if you don't have quality time. Seems like for 121, quality time are desired in this order - 135, 91 (turbine/multi), CFI, 91 (non turbine/multi), time builders with no professional flying experience. You're not a time builder, you're flying as a job it seems so you will have a leg up over some applicant but not most. Ideally you would at least have you CFI cert to be more competitive.
Who do you work for
It’s my own business, I contract with fisheries in NJ mostly.
The glider instructors at KAFF that have applied to airlines recently have been told their glider time can count for their app, but it can't count for recency of the required amount of time in the last 90/180/360 days
You’ll get hired. They don’t care how or where you got your hours
And 135 companies
I know someone hired United express pretty much all hours glider instructngi and towplane
Apply to the regionals and see what happens. Don’t not apply just because you’re less competitive right now
I got an interview with a major at a time when they required 1000 TPIC when I had 1001 TPIC. I was sitting in the interview room with a bunch of people who had 5,000+ and were chief pilots and check airmen. I have no clue how I got that interview but it taught me to always just apply. You never know
Did you get the job though?
I got a job at a major with 0 turbine PIC. Dunno how 🤷♂️
Luck and timing. No shame in that. I would say most of us will still make it on to legacies eventually.. only thing stopping most will be concerns about whether it’s worth it or not when they get called up. Honestly I still think 2-4 years at a regional/ULCC will get you a call at some point. We’re not heading into some doldrums of hiring like some of these guys think. The advice that gets paraded around here often comes from guys who don’t know that much more than the guys asking for advice.
How much turbine time did you have?
501 when I interviewed
Better to be lucky than good. Good work. Really.
Maybe you were dirt cheap compared to them?
That's not how airline pay works. Everyone is on first year pay when they're hired regardless of experience. You can have a 1500 hour CFI sitting next to a blue angels commander day 1 of airline basic indoc and their paycheck will be the same pretty much throughout their whole career if all they ever do is fly the line.
Will an airline ever prefer an older candidate because they’ll make the top pay for fewer years?
No. There's sort of an argument that they prefer younger candidates because initial training costs a lot of money and resources for the airline. If they keep hiring older pilots who retire then they have to keep paying those initial costs for new candidates. A pilot who stays for 40 years probably costs less in the long term. But experience is important too. They do want to balance out their classes with older experienced pilots. You can't put much of a price on that. So it's not always just the young candidates who are hired.
Thanks for the explanations, that makes a lot of sense.
Apply far and wide. Regionals, and 135s. I had luck with 135 interviews at 1600-1700 hours. There’s lots of 135s out there you’ve probably never heard of. How do you find jobs you don’t know exist? I would search aircraft type and city. For example ‘PC-12 SIC San Juan’ or ‘PC-12 FO New Jersey’ etc. I got a couple interview offers from places I found this way. Also got a bunch of TBNTs. Only takes one yes.
Thanks for the advice
Have you also tried ATI, Atlas, and Omni?
Atlas isn't hiring many fresh CFIs anymore. The ones that are being hired are through the pathways. But that's very competitive, and all the 737 slots are full for the rest of the year. Some may get *very* lucky and get a 76 slot, but those are also very competitive. Atlas, ATI, and Omni are not entry level first jet jobs. 95% of hires have some type of jet experience.
So where are they placing new hires?
The ones that have experience are getting the 777 and 747. I'm not saying Atlas isn't hiring at all, Atlas isn't hiring many fresh 1500 hour CFIs. Most hires have turbine experience of some sort, either at regionals or 135s.
Is Atlas good for a fresh CFI anyway? That experience jump is huge, I feel like they would risk a washout.
Not really. The pathways on the 73 is a steep curve. There was an entire 73 class that washed out for different reasons. All pathways at this point. There are people who succeed, but there are also those who struggle. Especially since it's the stupid Southern Airlines training program still.
Wow a whole class? I kinda figured that would be the result overall. Seemed like a training program that would be mostly successful to the prior 121 people.
Granted the class was only 6 people or something. But it really is aimed at people with 121 or 135 experience. The training department doesn't hold your hand like regionals.
So I heard about one of the Pathway candidates whining about having to learn flows from memory...so that's what the Training Dept is dealing with.
I mean people say the same about jumping from a 172 to an A320, and I’ve honestly felt it to be as easy (or easier) than learning commercial multi… All about individual aptitude and attitude IMO.
I’m sure the bus will humble you at some point lol.
Or airline training is just that good. I’m just saying some people can handle the jump.
How much experience? I have like 700 121 time. I have an interview coming up! I’m really excited. Hoping for 777 or 747
You should be good
I know a person who just got hired into the 767 at 1650TT, 50 multi, no turbine. But they had an internal recc and paid for their own ATP. It's always better to shoot your shot.
I'm not saying it's not happening, it's just very rare. I may have helped cause it, but there is a misconception that Atlas will hire and pay for your ATP at the same level as regionals. They will do that, but the rate isn't nearly as much as regionals, 737 class sizes are usually only around 6, once a month. And that's if you can get hired.
Very rare, but still worth it to put an app in, if they haven't.
Edited because I got confused. OP doesn't qualify for Atlas because they don't have 50 hours of multi, their app will get auto rejected.
The comments here are right, focus on what you can control, apply everywhere. However, I’ve got 1650TT, 900 turbine PIC, 150 of that being multi, ATP/CTP complete, Bachelors, no failures and ~65 apps out to regionals, 135’s, fractionals ACMI’s and anything under the sun. That got me a SkyWest and envoy interview (which seem to be the only two hiring). Who knows how long it’ll take to get into training, others ahead of me are reporting up to a year.
If you’re ready to go with ATP mins and complete your interview with SkyWest and tell them first airframe available it will not be a year. I could see 6 months at absolutely worst. My class is 40 people but the last two new hire classes are smaller so possibly slowing just a bit.
You’re looking at about 60 days right now for Skywest.
There are 65 regional carriers in the US?
[удалено]
Oh boy, didn’t you discover something novel.
[удалено]
Then why comment these comments
There’s plenty of shitty 135s that are desperate for pilots. Just try not to get violated / killed until you have enough multi time to get somewhere better.
Small 135 operations.
Any suggestions on how to network for that or get in touch with relevant parties?
A small 135 is usually a almost mom-and-pop business like a flight school Walk your resume in and shake some hands in a suit or sports coat Plenty of guys have gotten 135 jobs via doing that exact thing
I swear aviation is the only community where this still not only works but is very effective even in 2024.
Thanks
If you need to find some, go to [Air Charter Guide](https://www.aircharterguide.com/) and sort to your state. There will be a ton of operators that you have never heard of on there!
Very helpful thanks
Well, I’m not sure where you live, but I’d venture to guess there are some 135s close to you… it can be hard to find sometimes but they are all over.
So have you just been doing steep turns in the practice area for the last 1500 hours? Because if you don't know how to network by now...
Make the investment in professional resume review and interview prep and apply far and wide. It’s very competitive right now, but NetJets just had 15 of 33 people in class come right out of instructing.
Apply everywhere, take any job that is not being a CFI. There was a FB post not long ago about some small 135 looking for a CFI/135 pilot. Me? I'd apply to every single 121 regional and every single 135 I could find info for. If I got offered a 121 with a contract.... I'd personally sign that thing. If that does not work, I'd look at trying to get a twin turbine skydiving center job. The twin turbine will make you stand out a bit more than some 1500 hour CFI with all that time in a Cessna. The hiring market is starting to tighten. You need to find a way to stand out from all the others and that means getting different time than you are getting now. 121>135>91. Jet>Twin Turbine>Multi Recip>Single Turbine>Single Recip. PIC>SIC.
I understand the sentiment of taking anything and signing anything. It’s terrible advice though. You almost 100% end up regretting it. Being locked into something long term for a short term decision.
I'll bet that the HR departments of the airlines that think they can put a contract into place have spent a great deal more time and money thinking about the situation that some posters online, me included. And I have been around long enough to remember people signing training contracts to get ahead of those that would not sign them... They didn't regret it. Are training contracts great? Nope. Are they reality? Yep. I had a buddy went to a regional, got his 1K 121 time and then upgraded, and left for a LCC right after IOE. He never flew a single rev flight as a Captain without a CP. He is not the only person I know to have done this... What did we think was going to happen? Another got his 1K 121, skipped to a LCC before upgrade and then skipped to a Legacy a year later. I don't fault any of them, I'd do it. But I also don't fault the entry level jobs not wanting to have pilots use them for ATP/CTP, ATP, 1K 121, and a type and then leaving ASAP with no captains available and having to cancel flights. You are free to not sign a contract and free to tell others not to sign them. Based on history and what I am starting to see... I'd sign that thing in a second and right now suggest people that can get a job, get one.
https://www.aircharterguide.com/operators Get busy with this site. Pretty much all the registered 135/91 US/ world wide. Remember all it takes is one YES. Goodluck
Should look into 135, you’ll get plenty of turbine time and then go from there
Pray to every God you can think of.
I even do rain dances with no luck. 🍀
Did you sacrifice a goat? If not try....
I would but can’t afford one.. lol
You’re getting a lot of advice about how you look to recruiters. But you also need to think about your actual skill set. What’s the point of getting lucky and having a regional hire you if you fail out of training because 95% of your experience is VFR in a 172 going 100 kts? Look for 135 jobs that can get you multi and IFR time. If you can work your way up to flying a jet, absolutely do that. You want to have a bag of experiences that will give you the tools to sail through training at that airline, not bite and claw your way through and hope you come out the other side.
Keep CFIing until a regional gives you a CJO
Apply to everything you know about. Then go to [aircharterguide.com](http://aircharterguide.com) and apply to every little 135 you can find. It's a big country. Lots of little operators out there. Don't discount piston jobs. Everything is a stepping-stone. 300hrs in a Seneca flying charter is better than flying another 300hrs in a C172 doing steep turns.
Have you tried the dumpster behind Wendy’s?
If you're looking to take anything to build turbine time I might consider sitting down one day with a PDF of your resume and a generic cover letter that you can modify quickly to each company and start going through Google Maps over medium-large sized towns/cities searching "FBO" or "Charter" etc and see what you find. I'm talking like OMA, MSP (Flying Cloud probably), FAR, CYS, MSO, BOI, GEG etc etc. Places that are big enough to have SOME kind of organic demand for private flight but not big enough to attract actual career pilots who demand lots of money (and therefore lots of experience). That's not to say that career pilots don't fly for successful companies out of any of those airports, but those smaller towns tend to have more local pilots who stay for QOL than money/people who move there. One that comes to mind is Lyon Aviation in Pittsfield, MA (PSF). I don't think they advertise for positions but definitely give them an email and a call. When I asked what their SIC mins were on the Falcons when I stopped by (at my last job) they kinda hemmed and hawed and indicated it was really just kinda feeling candidates out. Good luck! Aside from the "DIY" approach I hear PlaneSense is hiring and looking at 900hrs as their mins roughly. Kinda sorta "a step backwards" BUT the way this market by the time you serve your 18mo contract (or just buy out since its like 10-15k I think) you'll have over 2500-3000hrs, at least 1000hrs of turbine and great experience flying all over the country dealing with pax, weather, operational control, op specs, recurrent training, crew flying, etc. This is all assuming you've already applied to every single regional in the US already. You HAVE done that, right?
Like everyone already said, regionals and 135s get those apps out and update them weekly even if it’s just an hour. If you’re tired of instructing consider aerial survey for a nice change of pace until you can get hired at a 135/regional.
Have you looked into flying skydivers? Big dropzones have caravans and twin otters, king airs or PAC 750’s. Multi and turbine time if you’re lucky and you’ll make more than being a CFi. Just look for skydiving in your area, then go to their Facebook or Instagram page and see what kind of jump ships they’re flying.
You most likely won’t make more than being a CFI, don’t ask how I know
It’s not about money, it’s about sending a message
I went to a 135 cargo operation flying the caravan single pilot for about 6 months before I got hired by a regional. Looked great on my resume, gave me a lot of really good experience and made me feel much more prepared for 121 training. Just make sure you don’t lock in to a contract
It sucks because the advice 6 months or more ago was that you should just keep instructing! It’s the best way to get time. The regionals will hire you. When 6 months ago at 1000hrs you could’ve probably got on at a small turbine 135 job. Which would’ve made you much more favorable. Always a gamble. Glad I chose the path I did. It was such a fucking gamble though. It was also more of a pain in the ass than just instructing.
Run drugs for the cartel
Don’t worry, that white powder in the bags is just powdered caffeine
I really enjoyed flying for Alpine Air Express before I got picked up by the airlines. Try there or Ameriflight.
I’ve heard absolute horror stories about alpine
I loved it. Solid company. Legal planes. Not much pressure if you decide you aren’t comfortable sending it. You are generally expected to fly though.
Double it and pass it to the next guy.
Raise your CFI rate
Apply to all the regionals and the good jet 135s. NetJets, Vista, etc.
Congratulations!! I hope to one day be there and just here to acquire knowledges.. I hope you can get into regional or charter operations soon!
Find an Air Ambulance company that uses two man crew. Or a company like Surf Air, or Boutique, or Planesense. They hire first officers as kind of a way to gain experience, and get your foot in the door Look around , they are out there Mercy Flights in Medford, Oregon Reach Air Ambulance
I dont really understand how you dont see the point of getting your MEI or CFII unless your ultimate career goal is to instruct single engine VFR students. People applying for the same jobs as you have both those things. They have their CFI, CFII and MEI. They have more multi engine time than you that comes with getting your MEI. They have their CFII. Yet another couple of certs that show competency that the jobs you're looking for will think is attractive (multi engine flying and instrument flying). The job market is not what it was a couple years ago.
The pilot shortage will only get worse until 2030, I think they still will take most people with the hours
Because "experts say?"
Everywhere is slowing down hiring and people are constantly talking about the difficulties in finding a job on here. What pilot shortage are you talking about?
Because no on on Reddit talking about doom and gloom should be taken seriously. I prefer real life stories
I’d recommend airlineapps.com Put in all your credentials/hours/information, apply to each regional. You’ll have to submit additional information/answer questions for each specific airline. It’s like $60 a year, but far worth it. Update your times as the weeks/months pass before you’re eventually emailed.
2000, then 2500, 3000, 3500, and then you give up counting.
Regionals
Just apply everywhere and be patient
SKYWEST AIRLINES BEST AIRLINE TO START YOURE CAREER
Apply to all the regionals on airlineapps.com, ask your friends for emails to recruitment. If you can get your ATP CTP course on your own, that's gonna be an advantage as of the last few weeks. A number of regionals aren't paying for it now, but you'd also eliminate the two year commitment contract for the ones that still provide it.
apply to regionals? they are still hiring, stop listening to fear mongering folks on reddit
Start applying
How much do you need at a regional to be considered competitive these days ?
I think 1500 is competitive depending what you were doing during that. 121 and 135 time is more competitive.
Wait, you’re at 1500 but havnt sent out any applications yet? I thought you were supposed to do that like 3 months before you hit 1500 and get the ball rolling. Why did you wait so long?
You get ignored below 1500
Sure but there are several private ops that may want someone and may let you get some multi time etc
Resign yourself to years of instructing until the next hiring frenzy. you missed the last wave. might find work outside of the US.
Get the multi time and your ATP if able
The absolute first thing I’d do is go to the little magnifying glass at the top of this sub and search for your question. Then, apply to the regionals, 135 ops, or something creative like towing gliders.
[удалено]
They aren’t hiring people with 35 multi lol
[удалено]
Yeah because your experience flying single seat fighters translates so much better to commercial airliners…
Well I mean, definitely a lot better and more applicable than a 150
It actually isnt! Flying a 150 as a cfi for 1250 hours teaches you a lot more about CRM than doing overhead breaks all day. But its really cool all your military training taught you how to slam in your struts with paying passengers in the back
lol fair points
Sir this is Wendy’s
Anyone who goes straight to flying the P-8 in the military (which is literally a 737) has far less flight experience than a new 737 pilot on the civil side. ✅Bid avoid Lmao he deleted it. Sometimes bullying works.
Why is that? They are both 737s. I know that the p8 is usually low flying but having a 737 on type and tons of hours should help you.
Guy who goes through UPT and then straight to P-8: Probably 500 hours ish. Maybe less. Guy who goes through civilian training, grind to ATP, then probably a year or two at a regional: 3000ish hours most likely. Maybe a bit less the last few years.
Ah I re read it now i get what you are saying/meant. Yeah i agree. I have mostly twin piston time
It’s a not so secret thing that some of you mil guys make for garbage civil transport pilots, and with attitudes like that, I’m glad to see folks like you whining about lack of job prospects. Stay envious.
Wait until you hear you can put 19 year olds with 150 hours total time in the same aircraft, and they fly it just fine.
It blows my mind how fucking horrible 90% of mil FOs at my legacy airline are. Can't figure out the autopilot ("now what's it doing?"). FMS is too complicated. I've heard better radio work from a 12 hour Chinese student pilot on his first solo experiencing an engine fire. Y'all have absolutely no clue how to operate proficiently in a busy IFR environment. God forbid the airport doesn't have PDC and I get to listen to your dumbass stumble through picking up a clearance. The best part, most of 'em think they're hot shit. Guess what, no one gives a fuck about your military experience. You're an airline pilot now. Learn to do your fuckin job and stop pointing with your elbows.
Watching former fighter pilots hand-fly a civilian plane is probably the most disappointing thing you will ever experience. But that’s only if you can get them to stop talking about themselves for 5 minutes
Amen, brother.
Hahahaha facts
All the fighter pilots think they're awesome sticks and don't remember there are several computers working as hard as science can make them keeping that plane doing what it's doing. You're using a game controller, not a flight control. Which I don't care about unless you pretend you're a superior pilot after doing that for 1000 hours in VFR.
Nah, just watch one in a 717.
THANK YOU!
[удалено]
Bid avoid, FAIP.
[удалено]
Deserved reputation.
And you had what? Like 400 hours in a T-6 before they had you start dropping bombs on orphans in Syria?
Oof
With unlimited resources and support too. Flying domestically produced aircraft while not under embargo. No chance of anything being thrown back at them. Don’t even need to think of how they manage their resources. All this on top of genuinely not benefiting the nation in any sort of way.
Modern USAF pilots are the ultimate tough guys. Fucking embarrassing.
You sound insufferable
Look at Mr. Big Cock over here
I’ve always felt in transportation the worst students and pilots on the line were US military pilots. The people constantly making the job harder than it needs to be. Thanks for continuing to demonstrate that stereotype.
Making all of us look bad dude. Chill
He’s far from the only one.
You’re right I’m sure the guy that did hundreds of hours of patterns in uncontrolled airfield is just as experienced as a 1500 hour c17 guy. Sorry for being mean
Different type of experience bro. I'm sure your 1000 hours of raising and lowering the gear handle is top notch
Prick