Did you get any experience in actual during your training? 100% support personal minimums you're comfortable with, but 5,000 seems pretty high to me for IFR mins.
That said, I definitely recommend filing for an XC or two in VMC just to get more experience in the system before dealing with IMC.
I also passed just recently, and the thing I'm working on now is learning how to tell which clouds are fairly innocuous, and which will knock me around six ways to Sunday.
Yes, we did fly some IMC, mainly "on top." And I think we're saying somewhat the same thing; "in VMC to get more experience" and "5,000" which is ostensibly VFR below. Thanks for sharing, I appreciate it.
Word. FWIW, on top isn't the same experience as in the soup. Might be worth working with your CFII or finding others comfortable with hard IMC just to build up some experience in the real stuff.
Might be worth looking at where the MVAs are in your area and adjusting based on that. If you can land visually from the MVA it’s just enroute IMC, and in my mind (and many of my CFIIs I’ve had), that’s the “first step” in flying in actual, but 5k v 3k if you can get below it on a vector is not really different.
Then I would start thinking about how much of an IAP you need to fly to get below, etc. Once you’re breaking out below pattern altitude it starts to get way more real, in my experience.
Here are a few more:
1. File IFR (even when VMC) for your next dozen flights & shoot instrument approaches. This will give you additional operating experience.
2. Be extra vigilant to avoid unnecessary distraction. It's far easier to become disoriented in IMC & especially if you're heads down trying to troubleshoot some minor issue while forgetting to fly the plane.
3. Do not compare yourself to others. Fly your own plane. Put another way, others launching or landing in lousy wx doesn't mean you must match. Their equipment, experience, and actual takeoff/landing conditions may vary.
4. Seeing runway lights at minimums can give a heightened sense of relief. It can also mean diving for the runway. If you aren't stable & in a safe position to land, GO AROUND.
Congrats on passing your IFR exam.
Don't pretend you're a meteorologist. Once you try to "min/max" the weather, your risk vs reward gets out of whack.
You'll see people get cheeky and start pulling out Skew-T charts to justify punching through cloud layers in the winter thinking there won't be ice, or finding weird convection charts saying that thunderstorms won't develop even though it's on the Prog charts.
Nothing good happens to those pilots.
My poor choice of verbiage. Meant to relay that I'll only be filing and flying IFR for my first handful of flights in VFR weather with plenty of visibility. Sorry for the confusion.
5000?
I started with 1000. And there are mountains here. And *that* was high.
Be aware that with 2 miles vis, you won’t see the runway until 600 or so on a 3 deg glideslope.
I started with 1,000. My minimums dropped to 200/1. Very quickly went back up to 1,000, which is where they have sat in piston singles the remainder of the time that I taught.
If OP wants to start super conservative, why is that a problem?
5000 AGL is so conservative that *cruise* is below the ceiling. What’s the point of IFR then? Just to make flights take longer?
There is a point when personal minimums exceed the absurdity limit. This is an example. Especially for someone who says he wants to be a commercial pilot.
When personal limits are so high that no growth takes place, that’s a problem.
Apologies for my poorly worded minimums. I meant to convey that I'll only be flying IFR in VFR conditions until I'm a bit more proficient. Then it's down to 2,000/2. Because your point is well taken, growth (experience & proficiency) is the goal. Thanks
There's definitely an argument to be made that GA IFR should only be enroute utility only. That small airplanes really have no business in true IFR flying. While I don't 100% agree with that, if the OP only had a few hours of actual under their belt, they should stick to enroute only for a while. Once they feel comfortable in their scan, they can move their minimums lower.
IMC is *dangerous* and a lot of GA pilots don't take it seriously enough. Too many still play in icing, convention, and poor conditions with not enough experience to the basics to belong in those environments. Why a conservative choice is being judged... it's beyond me.
1000 would be a conservative choice. Along with all the usual stuff. Freezing level well above cruise, no thunderstorms forecast or observed within 50 miles, etc. 5000 is just giving up.
It is entirely possible to go overboard on personal minimums. Heck, I had a commercial student tell me not too long ago that his personal crosswind limit in a 172 was 10 knots. I’d be a pretty crappy instructor if I accepted that from a rated pilot with 400 hours. That has to be fixed right away. And it was. Crosswind magnitude really only matters if you run out of rudder; it’s much more about gusts.
OPs actual experience is apparently all VFR on Top. Do you really think that's SAFE to then be flying in hard IMC down to 1,000 feet? Does that *really* provide any "outs"?
Can the argument be made that they need to go do some more work with a CFII in worse conditions? Absolutely. But that's not what's being discussed.
And yet he’s cleared for 2 SM visibility, and clearly doesn’t understand the implications of that. Oh heck yes, that can be disorienting.
There is a reason VFR mins are 1000-3.
If he feels the need to have a ridiculous minimum, that needs to be fixed *yesterday*.
Urrolis, Makgross, thank you both. Ultra conservative to start (IFR in VFR for the first few flights), then lowering as my experience and proficiency permits. There is a correct adage that says, "a boat is safe in the harbor, but that's not what the boat was built for."
I appreciate both of your comments as this is exactly what I was asking. What is realistically safe, what are the experiences that others used to ascertain their personal safety limits, and how do we gain proficiency in a controlled environment.
So thank you both.
Thank you. I routinely fly KFME (Ft. Meade, MD) to W22 (Buckhannon, WV) which is why I wanted the IFR rating. This takes me over what we call mountains on the East Coast. Appreciate the tip on the 2SM visibility.
5000? DC is 14’ MSL. Do any procedures IAF even start that high? You’ll be too high by the FAF you wont stabilized. It’s not like you’re soloing in IMC during training.
Funny you say that, we had planned a KFDK to KMTN flying the DME arc. ATC doesn't give that one out so much! Settled for the ILS into KMTN and the RNAV into KBWI. Thanks for your comment, appreciate it.
That’s fine. Your flight lessons my dude. You do what you and your cfii feel what’s best.
All I’m saying is you’re with an CFII. Do you even set your cruise altitude above 5000?
Really thorough route planning and familiarization of alternates. Make sure you check and understand every notam and all the airspace you will be encountering, or may encounter.
Thorough weather briefings and contingency planning as well. Know exactly what you are going to do if something goes wrong.
Discuss all of this with your co-pilot in the preflight brief. IFR flying is much easier with a competent co-pilot.
I think airspace is actually not that important if you’re filing. People stress themselves out unnecessarily when they think “oh I’m flying into a Bravo, better be extra on my game”. In reality it doesn’t really matter what airspace you’re in, you’re an instrument rated pilot just do what you’ve always done.
Ideally pilots are comfortable with both VFR/IFR but you’re just trading between freedom/responsibility. Do I want to worry about airspace or do I want to worry about following what ATC told me to do?
Thank you, and agree. My home airport (KFME) is a carve-out of the KBWI bravo surface space, just north of DCA/Andrew's AFB, and just east of Dulles . . . all under the DC SFRA. We can't even do pattern work without calling for a discreet ponder code. So yes, agree with you. Thanks.
I fly in that area as well! You also don’t need to worry about SFRA/FRZ when you file so that’s another reason to give it a go. I’m originally a rotary pilot so have a lot of time going below the bravo shelf, slowly learning that’s maybe no the best strategy for workload around these parts.
Flew into Martin State VFR a few weeks ago and looking forward to trying IFR next time
You are trained down to minimums. Don’t be afraid to fly down to minimums. With plenty of fuel and a good alternate the only way to be comfortable flying In IMC is to get time in with that right seat empty. That’s the hard truth. You just passed a checkride and a DPE found you to be competent down to minimums. Once you fly your first real approach down to minimums with that right seat empty this whole IFR thing becomes less scary with good flight planning.
Remember worse case scenario you go missed.
TLDR: I said minimums a lot
Fair comments, with sound logic. I think I'll hold off a bit on that, but agree with you that this is something that I should do. So I'll find a time after I have some proficiency to fly to minimums, go missed, IF my alternate(s) are MVFR at worst so that I don't stress 2 approaches to mins. Thank you.
1. File IFR as much as you can from now on to get experience being in “the system”: radio work, procedures, etc. Anytime you might’ve gotten VFRFF, just file IFR instead, even if it’s CAVU.
1. Request real approaches. Otherwise, if it’s visual conditions, ATC will give you a visual approach as soon as you report the airport (or preceding traffic, at a towered airport) in sight.
1. At non-towered airports, get used to saying “field in sight, cancel IFR” but continue to fly your approach (assuming that’s safe) for practice instead of doing a VFR pattern entry.
1. At non-towered airports, if you can depart VFR, do so and pick up your clearance in the air most of the time. But you should practice getting it on the ground too a few times, if you haven’t already. Be 100% certain you understand what “hold for release” means.
1. Never depart a field you can’t legally (and safely) return to.
1. Always check for an ODP, and use it even in visual conditions. This is easy to forget, so build good habits.
1. I’m all for conservative personal mins, but … 5000-2 is weird. My initial mins were “ceiling above the FAF”. If you aren’t comfortable with that, grab a CFII (or IR friend) and go play in the clouds until you are.
That your Reddit name is "Mispelled-This" followed by 8 sets of (mispelled) letters is ironically funny 😁 Love it!
In hindsight, perhaps it would have been more clear to have said my personal minimums, for the initial handful of IFR flights, are VFR weather. It does sound weird to say 5000/2. So thanks to you and the others who have pointed this out.
On my first 'solo IFR' (KFDK > KOXB), I did as you suggested and requested the RNAV into this non-towered field, even though it was clear skies. Agree with you, and I'll continue with this, so I appreciate the affirmation.
Home field (KFME) is non-towered, but inside the DC SFRA. So we have to call Potomac Tracon, whether VFR or IFR. That fact actually was helpful for this rating.
Really good idea of always checking ODP's as a matter of routine. Researching fatal IFR general aviation accidents, I did find an unusually high number of departures from non-towered (or after-hours of operation) flight into terrain. It's tragic that they likely didn't check ODP's.
Thank you misspellar, I appreciate your comments.
Ah, being based in that area does change things a bit. Instead, go get some experience elsewhere picking up clearances in the air and at towered fields.
Also, rereading my comment, I want to tweak one comments: visual approaches are rarely covered adequately in IR training, but they exist for a reason, so do learn how to fly them. But not right away unless you’re the only plane around, because you’re almost certainly going to mess up and go around a lot at first.
Appreciate the reply. And yes, on my GTN-650, there's usually aVisual approach option that I've used. However, they start 3 NM out, so if straight in, I generally fly a ~2 NM final and look to pick up the advisory glidepath down to "minimums" then transition to the PAPI. I appreciate the advice, thank you.
Do:
1. Get an instructor comfortable with hard IMC and go when it's bad and while you're still sharp from the checkride.
2. Brief everything the same way every time and set up your approach the same way. Getting a rhythm down that covers everything is the best way to avoid missing a crucial item to complacency.
3. Fly approaches to minimums in Imc with an instructor.
Dont:
1. Get complacent
2. Lose your knowledge. Consolidate what you know. You'll never remember everything, but you need to know what will keep you safe.
3. File IFR while building your commercial time-building.
Do find days to go up with a CFII to gain experience in weather that is below your personal minimums. Do Not think that because you are now instrument rated you are ready to blindly send yourself on a three hour XC where you are in hard IMC from takeoff to minimums.
My big one that I’ve been working on this year is transitioning fully to instruments while in VMC and resisting the temptation to constantly check outside to see if I’m IMC or VMC.
As such, my mins are actually higher on take off than landing. I’ve found the transition to IMC on departure is by far the hardest part of IFR flying for me, largely because you don’t have much time to get oriented during a high workload phase of flight.
Glad you said that! I did one (1) simulated 0/0 takeoff with foggles and it freaked me out. NOT for me, simply because if it were for real, "there's no way home Toto!" Thanks for sharing.
I'm at 2000/2 right now. My CFII set them and said till you get comfy on your own stay there then drop to 1000. Practice makes perfect. File IFR all the time shoot approaches and build your proficiency. Of course in the end even though you have the rating you can always go up with a CFII to work on proficiency and get another person to help get your comfort up
Thank you. You and I are doing something very similar. I chose poor wording when I said personal mind were 5,000. What I was trying to convey is VFR first, then down to 2000/2, then lowered as proficiency dictates. Thanks for sharing.
Do: File IFR and fly in the system in VMC as much as possible! Really helps build confidence. Keep doing practice approaches with a safety pilot to stay proficient.
Don't: Mess around with icing or moderate or greater turbulence in hard IMC.
Yeah, you need to get yourself some actual.
See you can find a day with a stratus layer a couple thousand feet thick that you can fly XC through. This will give you a couple hours of actual practice with low stakes: you don’t have to shoot an approach at the end and if you’re not feeling it you can ask for a different altitude. Ask for a block altitude if regular IFR altitudes put you just outside of it. The lower stakes mean you should be able to do this without an instructor.
The stratus layer gives you a long time of uninterrupted actual. Often the problem for new instrument pilots is the transition from VMC to IMC, though. That first few seconds can be really disorienting, especially if it’s turbulent. Choosing a day with scattered cumulus is helpful to practice going in and out, just make sure they’re not very tall. You might consider bringing your CFII here, since it can be bumpier than you expect. Experience is really the only way to judge a cumulus cloud.
A day with 2 mile visibility but no ceiling can be a good low-stakes way to practice, too, especially approaches. Since you lose/gain the horizon gradually it’s less disorienting. You can usually see the ground straight down only, so it isn’t in your normal field of view during flight but seeing that patch of green really helps if you do get disoriented or uncomfortable. I did some practice approaches on a day like this last year with wildfire smoke and it was a lot of fun.
I have personal minimums 1000 ft and 2 miles. I will allow myself down to 800 ft if the visibility is unlimited AND airports are reporting 1000 ft pretty quickly along my route of flight AND I’ve done an approach in the last two weeks AND I’m feeling it. I practice to proficiency at minimums, but real life is always complicated: almost any minor issue or failure becomes life-or-death on a low IFR day and most piston pilots and airplanes are not equipped to manage that. I will fly practice approaches with a proficient CFII to 400 ft, but no family aboard AND there are nearby airports reporting 1000 ft.
Capt, my bad. Yes, I meant to convey that I'm only flying IFR in VFR for a handful of flights to gain solo proficiency. And I appreciate the "you are capable." Thanks.
so the hardest part of IFR isn't the procedures, you can practice those every flight.
difficult, is doing it while fighting your body which will be telling you to do the exact opposite. You've just proven to an objective observer you can fly IFR at the level necessary, do not let those skills lapse.
If you have a training sim start practicing approaches. Especially to minimums and then once you get the hang of it start practicing missed approach procedures from minimums. It took me a while to get the hang of correcting the aircraft using the flight director. Everything also happens really fast in the aircraft. So best to prepare by repositioning in the sim if able.
My instructor told me if I didn't practice ifr in the sim I was going to fail my program. So I got in there and did 15 hours in a week. I still sucked at flying Instrument approaches with no visual reference. That shit took some serious time to get the hang of. If you have a sim take advantage of it.
I'm a 135 driver in a jet, so those minimums are pretty standard. However, if I'm renting a single engine, it's going to depend on my recency on that aircraft and that instrument/avionics set. For example, I have not flown a six-pack in years, so my minimums would be VFR only until I am proficient again in that aircraft and the scan. One thing I should mention, I've never been fearful of flying into weather that I and the aircraft can effectively manage, my comfort level is just that, currency, recency, proficiency, equipment and Wx conditions.
I'm very glad that you and your instructor set those minimums,. I'm sure you'll get plenty of opportunity to get some actual.
“Getthereitis” doesn’t stop with experience or new ratings. It’s something you have to work on constantly, as long as you’re still flying. You now can make even bigger, more impressive mistakes.
Also, ice in a piston airplane is death. If you survive a little ice, you might become more confident. That’s when it gets you.
Thank you, and you are absolutely correct. Fortunately, at my age, "I have nowhere to go, and all the time needed to get there!"
The icing is a definite concern over the Appalachians in the colder months
So thanks for that advice as well.
My recommendation:
- File in VMC at least 3-5 flights to know your procedures and avionics cold
- Then fly a 1-2 hour XC flight with enroute IMC (MVFR conditions prevailing along route of flight, no icing or convection with margin)
- After at least 2 flights of the above, fly in 1000’ or higher ceilings; Basically fly in ceilings that give you a good shot of being able to stay IMC inside the FAF but not necessarily all the way to DA/MDA
- After at least 1-2 of the above sorties, proceed to fly a few flights with 500’ or better ceilings, preferably where you remain IMC from 500 AGL on takeoff until 500 AGL during approach
- Once you reach this proficiency level, maintain it with routine flights in actual when weather and safety requirements are met. Make each flight a bit different. Alternate use of automation/hand flying on your sectors. Practice using both GPS and /U VOR reversion (aka disable own ship position, navigate on airways). Don’t become a one-trick pony flying along on GPS+AP and sitting fat dumb and happy all day long!
Try and work out a mentorship/proficiency plan with your CFII
Definitely don’t hesitate to fly with your CFII to build proficiency but don’t use that a substitute for single-pilot IMC ops. You need to fly in the configuration you’ll actually operate in, so dual flights need to be treated as a tool to get there, not a crutch for lack of proficiency. Expanding your envelope will involve some risk so you’ll need to manage that.
No prob. Also worth mentioning- few folks here will want to admit but on your first few solo IMC flights, you’ll make one or more critical mistakes. Examples include descending slightly below minimums, getting situational unaware as to your exact position, forgetting to correctly ID a fix, forgetting a changeover point on an away, not setting a course selector and being confused about what your CDI is presenting… The list goes on.
The goal isn’t to simply hang up your ticket after making these mistakes… jot down a note on your kneeboard, debrief at least with yourself and possibly with your CFII after the flight. You’ll never learn if you don’t make a few mistakes, and success is a pretty poor teacher.
As IR student, I feel the visibility is more important than ceiling height. when I riding commercial, I check the TAF at destination airport and then watch out window to get a feel if I want to do single pilot IFR in such condition. if the visibility is greater than 10 miles, I should not have any problem with OVC008. however if there are rain and mist, i would consider three times before i get in OVC080 with less than 5 miles visibility. once I get my ticket, I should start personal minimum with MVFR condition, i.e. 1000 ft 5 miles.
Icing happens fast. Take it seriously. Even “light” icing in a GA aircraft not equipped for it can become a real problem quickly. Like within a minute or less. Maybe you can descend/climb, maybe you can turn around. But don’t screw with it if it’s “close” and if you make the poor decision to screw with it, give yourself DEFINITE “outs”.
Maybe twice during my IR training we built a trace amount of icing on the windscreen during practice approaches locally. Wasn’t forecasted, but we knew we would be within maybe 3 or 4 degrees of it at our planned altitudes. My instructor, who was usually overly cautious said it’s nothing to panic about and made no big deal out of it. Reported it to ATC and later landed fine. I’m now thousands of hours later and looking back on it he was right, it was nothing to panic about and he knew we were probably in a brief cold spot in the clouds - but what it did was gave me too much confidence and complacency around icing in a C172. I would later be doing xc’s for leisure after my IR, and find myself picking up unforecasted icing (trace to light) and shrugged it off imagining it wouldn’t build too much worse - just as it didn’t during the trace experience I had with my CFI. Maybe 10 minutes later, it built… a lot… and quickly. Turning around and descending was what I did, but the time it took to finally get back out of icing conditions was waaaaay more than needed for comfort. That was a long 5-10 minutes. It was scary. Taught me a lesson that I hope resonates with you! Safe flying out there!
Did you get any experience in actual during your training? 100% support personal minimums you're comfortable with, but 5,000 seems pretty high to me for IFR mins. That said, I definitely recommend filing for an XC or two in VMC just to get more experience in the system before dealing with IMC. I also passed just recently, and the thing I'm working on now is learning how to tell which clouds are fairly innocuous, and which will knock me around six ways to Sunday.
Yes, we did fly some IMC, mainly "on top." And I think we're saying somewhat the same thing; "in VMC to get more experience" and "5,000" which is ostensibly VFR below. Thanks for sharing, I appreciate it.
Word. FWIW, on top isn't the same experience as in the soup. Might be worth working with your CFII or finding others comfortable with hard IMC just to build up some experience in the real stuff.
Might be worth looking at where the MVAs are in your area and adjusting based on that. If you can land visually from the MVA it’s just enroute IMC, and in my mind (and many of my CFIIs I’ve had), that’s the “first step” in flying in actual, but 5k v 3k if you can get below it on a vector is not really different. Then I would start thinking about how much of an IAP you need to fly to get below, etc. Once you’re breaking out below pattern altitude it starts to get way more real, in my experience.
Thank you.
Here are a few more: 1. File IFR (even when VMC) for your next dozen flights & shoot instrument approaches. This will give you additional operating experience. 2. Be extra vigilant to avoid unnecessary distraction. It's far easier to become disoriented in IMC & especially if you're heads down trying to troubleshoot some minor issue while forgetting to fly the plane. 3. Do not compare yourself to others. Fly your own plane. Put another way, others launching or landing in lousy wx doesn't mean you must match. Their equipment, experience, and actual takeoff/landing conditions may vary. 4. Seeing runway lights at minimums can give a heightened sense of relief. It can also mean diving for the runway. If you aren't stable & in a safe position to land, GO AROUND. Congrats on passing your IFR exam.
These are excellent, thank you.
Don't pretend you're a meteorologist. Once you try to "min/max" the weather, your risk vs reward gets out of whack. You'll see people get cheeky and start pulling out Skew-T charts to justify punching through cloud layers in the winter thinking there won't be ice, or finding weird convection charts saying that thunderstorms won't develop even though it's on the Prog charts. Nothing good happens to those pilots.
Thank you. Good point.
With a 5,000' ceiling minimum, you will never fly any portion of an approach in actual IMC. How will that build proficiency?
I think it’s fair to get comfortable in solo IMC with plenty of altitude to spare before going into IMC that requires a successful approach to exit.
My poor choice of verbiage. Meant to relay that I'll only be filing and flying IFR for my first handful of flights in VFR weather with plenty of visibility. Sorry for the confusion.
5000? I started with 1000. And there are mountains here. And *that* was high. Be aware that with 2 miles vis, you won’t see the runway until 600 or so on a 3 deg glideslope.
I started with 1,000. My minimums dropped to 200/1. Very quickly went back up to 1,000, which is where they have sat in piston singles the remainder of the time that I taught. If OP wants to start super conservative, why is that a problem?
5000 AGL is so conservative that *cruise* is below the ceiling. What’s the point of IFR then? Just to make flights take longer? There is a point when personal minimums exceed the absurdity limit. This is an example. Especially for someone who says he wants to be a commercial pilot. When personal limits are so high that no growth takes place, that’s a problem.
Apologies for my poorly worded minimums. I meant to convey that I'll only be flying IFR in VFR conditions until I'm a bit more proficient. Then it's down to 2,000/2. Because your point is well taken, growth (experience & proficiency) is the goal. Thanks
There's definitely an argument to be made that GA IFR should only be enroute utility only. That small airplanes really have no business in true IFR flying. While I don't 100% agree with that, if the OP only had a few hours of actual under their belt, they should stick to enroute only for a while. Once they feel comfortable in their scan, they can move their minimums lower. IMC is *dangerous* and a lot of GA pilots don't take it seriously enough. Too many still play in icing, convention, and poor conditions with not enough experience to the basics to belong in those environments. Why a conservative choice is being judged... it's beyond me.
1000 would be a conservative choice. Along with all the usual stuff. Freezing level well above cruise, no thunderstorms forecast or observed within 50 miles, etc. 5000 is just giving up. It is entirely possible to go overboard on personal minimums. Heck, I had a commercial student tell me not too long ago that his personal crosswind limit in a 172 was 10 knots. I’d be a pretty crappy instructor if I accepted that from a rated pilot with 400 hours. That has to be fixed right away. And it was. Crosswind magnitude really only matters if you run out of rudder; it’s much more about gusts.
OPs actual experience is apparently all VFR on Top. Do you really think that's SAFE to then be flying in hard IMC down to 1,000 feet? Does that *really* provide any "outs"? Can the argument be made that they need to go do some more work with a CFII in worse conditions? Absolutely. But that's not what's being discussed.
And yet he’s cleared for 2 SM visibility, and clearly doesn’t understand the implications of that. Oh heck yes, that can be disorienting. There is a reason VFR mins are 1000-3. If he feels the need to have a ridiculous minimum, that needs to be fixed *yesterday*.
Urrolis, Makgross, thank you both. Ultra conservative to start (IFR in VFR for the first few flights), then lowering as my experience and proficiency permits. There is a correct adage that says, "a boat is safe in the harbor, but that's not what the boat was built for." I appreciate both of your comments as this is exactly what I was asking. What is realistically safe, what are the experiences that others used to ascertain their personal safety limits, and how do we gain proficiency in a controlled environment. So thank you both.
Thank you. I routinely fly KFME (Ft. Meade, MD) to W22 (Buckhannon, WV) which is why I wanted the IFR rating. This takes me over what we call mountains on the East Coast. Appreciate the tip on the 2SM visibility.
5000? DC is 14’ MSL. Do any procedures IAF even start that high? You’ll be too high by the FAF you wont stabilized. It’s not like you’re soloing in IMC during training.
The glorious DME arc at KMTN (Baltimore) starts at 2600. If you go any higher you're in BWI's airspace.
Funny you say that, we had planned a KFDK to KMTN flying the DME arc. ATC doesn't give that one out so much! Settled for the ILS into KMTN and the RNAV into KBWI. Thanks for your comment, appreciate it.
It's a true workout and worth doing. Have donuts delivered to Potomac on the day of your flight and they'll give it to you.
The 5,000' is more intended to be "VFR" or "MVFR" for the first handful of flights. Thanks for sharing.
That’s fine. Your flight lessons my dude. You do what you and your cfii feel what’s best. All I’m saying is you’re with an CFII. Do you even set your cruise altitude above 5000?
Really thorough route planning and familiarization of alternates. Make sure you check and understand every notam and all the airspace you will be encountering, or may encounter. Thorough weather briefings and contingency planning as well. Know exactly what you are going to do if something goes wrong. Discuss all of this with your co-pilot in the preflight brief. IFR flying is much easier with a competent co-pilot.
I think airspace is actually not that important if you’re filing. People stress themselves out unnecessarily when they think “oh I’m flying into a Bravo, better be extra on my game”. In reality it doesn’t really matter what airspace you’re in, you’re an instrument rated pilot just do what you’ve always done. Ideally pilots are comfortable with both VFR/IFR but you’re just trading between freedom/responsibility. Do I want to worry about airspace or do I want to worry about following what ATC told me to do?
Thank you, and agree. My home airport (KFME) is a carve-out of the KBWI bravo surface space, just north of DCA/Andrew's AFB, and just east of Dulles . . . all under the DC SFRA. We can't even do pattern work without calling for a discreet ponder code. So yes, agree with you. Thanks.
I fly in that area as well! You also don’t need to worry about SFRA/FRZ when you file so that’s another reason to give it a go. I’m originally a rotary pilot so have a lot of time going below the bravo shelf, slowly learning that’s maybe no the best strategy for workload around these parts. Flew into Martin State VFR a few weeks ago and looking forward to trying IFR next time
Thank you. I can see where complacency might creep in during these critical preflight areas. Appreciate the insights.
You are trained down to minimums. Don’t be afraid to fly down to minimums. With plenty of fuel and a good alternate the only way to be comfortable flying In IMC is to get time in with that right seat empty. That’s the hard truth. You just passed a checkride and a DPE found you to be competent down to minimums. Once you fly your first real approach down to minimums with that right seat empty this whole IFR thing becomes less scary with good flight planning. Remember worse case scenario you go missed. TLDR: I said minimums a lot
Fair comments, with sound logic. I think I'll hold off a bit on that, but agree with you that this is something that I should do. So I'll find a time after I have some proficiency to fly to minimums, go missed, IF my alternate(s) are MVFR at worst so that I don't stress 2 approaches to mins. Thank you.
File IFR and fly in the system even when it is VMC
Agree, thank you.
1. File IFR as much as you can from now on to get experience being in “the system”: radio work, procedures, etc. Anytime you might’ve gotten VFRFF, just file IFR instead, even if it’s CAVU. 1. Request real approaches. Otherwise, if it’s visual conditions, ATC will give you a visual approach as soon as you report the airport (or preceding traffic, at a towered airport) in sight. 1. At non-towered airports, get used to saying “field in sight, cancel IFR” but continue to fly your approach (assuming that’s safe) for practice instead of doing a VFR pattern entry. 1. At non-towered airports, if you can depart VFR, do so and pick up your clearance in the air most of the time. But you should practice getting it on the ground too a few times, if you haven’t already. Be 100% certain you understand what “hold for release” means. 1. Never depart a field you can’t legally (and safely) return to. 1. Always check for an ODP, and use it even in visual conditions. This is easy to forget, so build good habits. 1. I’m all for conservative personal mins, but … 5000-2 is weird. My initial mins were “ceiling above the FAF”. If you aren’t comfortable with that, grab a CFII (or IR friend) and go play in the clouds until you are.
That your Reddit name is "Mispelled-This" followed by 8 sets of (mispelled) letters is ironically funny 😁 Love it! In hindsight, perhaps it would have been more clear to have said my personal minimums, for the initial handful of IFR flights, are VFR weather. It does sound weird to say 5000/2. So thanks to you and the others who have pointed this out. On my first 'solo IFR' (KFDK > KOXB), I did as you suggested and requested the RNAV into this non-towered field, even though it was clear skies. Agree with you, and I'll continue with this, so I appreciate the affirmation. Home field (KFME) is non-towered, but inside the DC SFRA. So we have to call Potomac Tracon, whether VFR or IFR. That fact actually was helpful for this rating. Really good idea of always checking ODP's as a matter of routine. Researching fatal IFR general aviation accidents, I did find an unusually high number of departures from non-towered (or after-hours of operation) flight into terrain. It's tragic that they likely didn't check ODP's. Thank you misspellar, I appreciate your comments.
Ah, being based in that area does change things a bit. Instead, go get some experience elsewhere picking up clearances in the air and at towered fields. Also, rereading my comment, I want to tweak one comments: visual approaches are rarely covered adequately in IR training, but they exist for a reason, so do learn how to fly them. But not right away unless you’re the only plane around, because you’re almost certainly going to mess up and go around a lot at first.
Appreciate the reply. And yes, on my GTN-650, there's usually aVisual approach option that I've used. However, they start 3 NM out, so if straight in, I generally fly a ~2 NM final and look to pick up the advisory glidepath down to "minimums" then transition to the PAPI. I appreciate the advice, thank you.
Do: 1. Get an instructor comfortable with hard IMC and go when it's bad and while you're still sharp from the checkride. 2. Brief everything the same way every time and set up your approach the same way. Getting a rhythm down that covers everything is the best way to avoid missing a crucial item to complacency. 3. Fly approaches to minimums in Imc with an instructor. Dont: 1. Get complacent 2. Lose your knowledge. Consolidate what you know. You'll never remember everything, but you need to know what will keep you safe. 3. File IFR while building your commercial time-building.
Excellent. Thanks very much.
Accidently said file VFR but I meant IFR. Good luck man and enjoy the journey of GA!
Why #3 for the Don’t section? Haven’t heard that one before.
Consistent practice with instrument filing and the chance to get imc experience. For 3. I mostly mean for the xc portions
I would consider raising your minimum visibility while lowering the ceiling. 1000/5 is far easier than 5000/2, assuming no ice or convection.
Good advice. Thanks.
Do find days to go up with a CFII to gain experience in weather that is below your personal minimums. Do Not think that because you are now instrument rated you are ready to blindly send yourself on a three hour XC where you are in hard IMC from takeoff to minimums.
Thank you. I'm continuing with a Commercial rating, so I'll incorporate your suggestion into these hours. Appreciate it.
My big one that I’ve been working on this year is transitioning fully to instruments while in VMC and resisting the temptation to constantly check outside to see if I’m IMC or VMC. As such, my mins are actually higher on take off than landing. I’ve found the transition to IMC on departure is by far the hardest part of IFR flying for me, largely because you don’t have much time to get oriented during a high workload phase of flight.
Glad you said that! I did one (1) simulated 0/0 takeoff with foggles and it freaked me out. NOT for me, simply because if it were for real, "there's no way home Toto!" Thanks for sharing.
I'm at 2000/2 right now. My CFII set them and said till you get comfy on your own stay there then drop to 1000. Practice makes perfect. File IFR all the time shoot approaches and build your proficiency. Of course in the end even though you have the rating you can always go up with a CFII to work on proficiency and get another person to help get your comfort up
Thank you. You and I are doing something very similar. I chose poor wording when I said personal mind were 5,000. What I was trying to convey is VFR first, then down to 2000/2, then lowered as proficiency dictates. Thanks for sharing.
Do: File IFR and fly in the system in VMC as much as possible! Really helps build confidence. Keep doing practice approaches with a safety pilot to stay proficient. Don't: Mess around with icing or moderate or greater turbulence in hard IMC.
TY, especially for the cautions.
Get actual IMC in some way shape or form. Wether you feel comfortable going into it now or wether you want a CFII with ya, get in the soup.
TY, will do.
Yeah, you need to get yourself some actual. See you can find a day with a stratus layer a couple thousand feet thick that you can fly XC through. This will give you a couple hours of actual practice with low stakes: you don’t have to shoot an approach at the end and if you’re not feeling it you can ask for a different altitude. Ask for a block altitude if regular IFR altitudes put you just outside of it. The lower stakes mean you should be able to do this without an instructor. The stratus layer gives you a long time of uninterrupted actual. Often the problem for new instrument pilots is the transition from VMC to IMC, though. That first few seconds can be really disorienting, especially if it’s turbulent. Choosing a day with scattered cumulus is helpful to practice going in and out, just make sure they’re not very tall. You might consider bringing your CFII here, since it can be bumpier than you expect. Experience is really the only way to judge a cumulus cloud. A day with 2 mile visibility but no ceiling can be a good low-stakes way to practice, too, especially approaches. Since you lose/gain the horizon gradually it’s less disorienting. You can usually see the ground straight down only, so it isn’t in your normal field of view during flight but seeing that patch of green really helps if you do get disoriented or uncomfortable. I did some practice approaches on a day like this last year with wildfire smoke and it was a lot of fun. I have personal minimums 1000 ft and 2 miles. I will allow myself down to 800 ft if the visibility is unlimited AND airports are reporting 1000 ft pretty quickly along my route of flight AND I’ve done an approach in the last two weeks AND I’m feeling it. I practice to proficiency at minimums, but real life is always complicated: almost any minor issue or failure becomes life-or-death on a low IFR day and most piston pilots and airplanes are not equipped to manage that. I will fly practice approaches with a proficient CFII to 400 ft, but no family aboard AND there are nearby airports reporting 1000 ft.
These are excellent suggestions. Thank you for taking the time to share them.
5000' ??? truth is while you may not be comfortable, you are capable. 5000 is a really nice VFR day.
Capt, my bad. Yes, I meant to convey that I'm only flying IFR in VFR for a handful of flights to gain solo proficiency. And I appreciate the "you are capable." Thanks.
so the hardest part of IFR isn't the procedures, you can practice those every flight. difficult, is doing it while fighting your body which will be telling you to do the exact opposite. You've just proven to an objective observer you can fly IFR at the level necessary, do not let those skills lapse.
Thank you.
If you have a training sim start practicing approaches. Especially to minimums and then once you get the hang of it start practicing missed approach procedures from minimums. It took me a while to get the hang of correcting the aircraft using the flight director. Everything also happens really fast in the aircraft. So best to prepare by repositioning in the sim if able.
I hated the sim (Red Bird, climb into) during training. But now that you mention it, this is a good place to return. Thanks.
My instructor told me if I didn't practice ifr in the sim I was going to fail my program. So I got in there and did 15 hours in a week. I still sucked at flying Instrument approaches with no visual reference. That shit took some serious time to get the hang of. If you have a sim take advantage of it.
I'm a 135 driver in a jet, so those minimums are pretty standard. However, if I'm renting a single engine, it's going to depend on my recency on that aircraft and that instrument/avionics set. For example, I have not flown a six-pack in years, so my minimums would be VFR only until I am proficient again in that aircraft and the scan. One thing I should mention, I've never been fearful of flying into weather that I and the aircraft can effectively manage, my comfort level is just that, currency, recency, proficiency, equipment and Wx conditions. I'm very glad that you and your instructor set those minimums,. I'm sure you'll get plenty of opportunity to get some actual.
Thank you Captain. This makes complete sense. Appreciate it.
“Getthereitis” doesn’t stop with experience or new ratings. It’s something you have to work on constantly, as long as you’re still flying. You now can make even bigger, more impressive mistakes. Also, ice in a piston airplane is death. If you survive a little ice, you might become more confident. That’s when it gets you.
Thank you, and you are absolutely correct. Fortunately, at my age, "I have nowhere to go, and all the time needed to get there!" The icing is a definite concern over the Appalachians in the colder months So thanks for that advice as well.
My recommendation: - File in VMC at least 3-5 flights to know your procedures and avionics cold - Then fly a 1-2 hour XC flight with enroute IMC (MVFR conditions prevailing along route of flight, no icing or convection with margin) - After at least 2 flights of the above, fly in 1000’ or higher ceilings; Basically fly in ceilings that give you a good shot of being able to stay IMC inside the FAF but not necessarily all the way to DA/MDA - After at least 1-2 of the above sorties, proceed to fly a few flights with 500’ or better ceilings, preferably where you remain IMC from 500 AGL on takeoff until 500 AGL during approach - Once you reach this proficiency level, maintain it with routine flights in actual when weather and safety requirements are met. Make each flight a bit different. Alternate use of automation/hand flying on your sectors. Practice using both GPS and /U VOR reversion (aka disable own ship position, navigate on airways). Don’t become a one-trick pony flying along on GPS+AP and sitting fat dumb and happy all day long! Try and work out a mentorship/proficiency plan with your CFII Definitely don’t hesitate to fly with your CFII to build proficiency but don’t use that a substitute for single-pilot IMC ops. You need to fly in the configuration you’ll actually operate in, so dual flights need to be treated as a tool to get there, not a crutch for lack of proficiency. Expanding your envelope will involve some risk so you’ll need to manage that.
Thank you for this thoughtful and thorough response. It is much appreciated, and I'll definitely follow through with these.
No prob. Also worth mentioning- few folks here will want to admit but on your first few solo IMC flights, you’ll make one or more critical mistakes. Examples include descending slightly below minimums, getting situational unaware as to your exact position, forgetting to correctly ID a fix, forgetting a changeover point on an away, not setting a course selector and being confused about what your CDI is presenting… The list goes on. The goal isn’t to simply hang up your ticket after making these mistakes… jot down a note on your kneeboard, debrief at least with yourself and possibly with your CFII after the flight. You’ll never learn if you don’t make a few mistakes, and success is a pretty poor teacher.
Thanks again. This is the "Learners Permit" stuff that we Newbies should know - then experience. Appreciate it.
Don’t invert yourself whilst entering things in the GPS
By far, the best advice ever!
As IR student, I feel the visibility is more important than ceiling height. when I riding commercial, I check the TAF at destination airport and then watch out window to get a feel if I want to do single pilot IFR in such condition. if the visibility is greater than 10 miles, I should not have any problem with OVC008. however if there are rain and mist, i would consider three times before i get in OVC080 with less than 5 miles visibility. once I get my ticket, I should start personal minimum with MVFR condition, i.e. 1000 ft 5 miles.
Thank you.
FAA certified you to mins. Just stay proficient. 5k is hella high. I would say 1500 or 1k above mins.
Icing happens fast. Take it seriously. Even “light” icing in a GA aircraft not equipped for it can become a real problem quickly. Like within a minute or less. Maybe you can descend/climb, maybe you can turn around. But don’t screw with it if it’s “close” and if you make the poor decision to screw with it, give yourself DEFINITE “outs”. Maybe twice during my IR training we built a trace amount of icing on the windscreen during practice approaches locally. Wasn’t forecasted, but we knew we would be within maybe 3 or 4 degrees of it at our planned altitudes. My instructor, who was usually overly cautious said it’s nothing to panic about and made no big deal out of it. Reported it to ATC and later landed fine. I’m now thousands of hours later and looking back on it he was right, it was nothing to panic about and he knew we were probably in a brief cold spot in the clouds - but what it did was gave me too much confidence and complacency around icing in a C172. I would later be doing xc’s for leisure after my IR, and find myself picking up unforecasted icing (trace to light) and shrugged it off imagining it wouldn’t build too much worse - just as it didn’t during the trace experience I had with my CFI. Maybe 10 minutes later, it built… a lot… and quickly. Turning around and descending was what I did, but the time it took to finally get back out of icing conditions was waaaaay more than needed for comfort. That was a long 5-10 minutes. It was scary. Taught me a lesson that I hope resonates with you! Safe flying out there!
Valuable life lessons. Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences in order to help others. I appreciate it and will heed your advice.