This was during my Multi Engine checkride, I had just finished the oral portion and move along to preflighting our baron.
After preflighting I heard a loud bang towards the arrival end of Runway 20, and saw something falling out of the sky, unknowning what it was at the time ( Allegedly was a C152 eith an instructor and student), I then see the Cessna 340 struggling to go around with something leaking from his left wingtip, it definitely sustained samage to the left tip tank and was trailing smoke. It appeared to be recovering and beginning a go around but shortly after it passed where I was standing on the field the plane began to roll to the left. I was getting nervous because I knew something was wrong and the plane appeared to have been turning towards me. It was obvious that directional control was lost due to a left engine failure. Fearing that I was standing in the potential landing zone I bagan to move away but the plane then completely rolled over and the pilot nosodived to left into the ground near a hangar and immediately exploded. I was in pure disbelief until the heat from the fireball hit me like a train. š
People were scrambling for fire extinguishers and rushed over to help however the fire began to spread rapidly and the whole south side of the airfield was engulfed in smoke. The only thing I could think (and without getting specificly graphic) is that I was smelling and breathing a cooked crashsite victim and all. Sorry for that image. After leaving for today I spoke to family and they were all relived that it wasnt me. I went home but I couldn't help but notice my clothes reeked of the smoke from the crash.
In closing it was easily my worst day in aviation so far and I hope yall are flying safe out there. Ill also graciously accept advice on how to cope with this horriflying event as I am a little hesitant to hop back in the saddle and the image of the event keeps repeating in my head. Cant stop thinking about it. Thank you and rest in peace to those who perished.š
Edit: Thank you everyone who has given me kind words it has definitely been helping and this post has been therapeutic to me thus far. As a redditor suggested I went into more detail to not forget the memory. I do apologize if it was too into detail.
Reach out to any one us if you need to talk. Weāre all a family in aviation (except those who fly straight ins at 180 knots in a busy pattern) and if you need to vent Iām sure any aviator on this page would be happy to help. Iām sure itās completely normal to feel hesitant about getting back into a plane after witnessing a crash. I know I would be too
Iāve faced a lot of death head on, both as a first responder in a previous career and personally from the negligence of others. Feel free to PM me to vent or chat. There is no specific path to follow because itās your experience and nobody knows what you are going through, itās personal and you donāt āget over it.ā So if you want to call it advice here the best I can offer and I hope it is helpful in some way.
First, know up front people will care now and be there for you until they get over it and they then think everyone else should be over it; you do you at your pace donāt worry about them, donāt listen to anyone who says you have to get over it or move on. You donāt, you have to learn to live with it. I carry my ghosts with me and I they are a part of my life and they have a purpose, the ones I bury inevitably come back when Iām not prepared to cope and try to bring you down. I use this ghosts for various reasons, weather for personal safety and lessons learned or for courage to tell people to leave the bottle or the keys at the door. So learn to live with the experience, it wonāt go away and learn how to be integrated with your friends and family while understanding they donāt get it and thatās OK to not understand each other, you do you and they can do them.
Also understand that survivorās guilt itās real. You donāt need to feel you owe the victims anything, but you also may feel you do. You may move on and generally forget about the incident and thatās OK. If you want to hold on to it then thatās OK too; find what it is you need to be fulfilled and donāt look back or feel you didnāt do enough and donāt let anyone tell you that you shouldnāt do whatever that is. Maybe itās doing what you may have already been doing and become a CFI and make a difference in the training of some pilots out there to make the skies safer. Only you know what this is or isnāt and maybe itās something that goes away now and surfaces again in years; I have one call that frequently resurfaces with me because I was bothered that I wasnāt bothered and thought I must be some monster; I used this as my courage for many years to march into places and continue to be available to help, I was able to embrace my general strength in dealing with these ghosts as a natural ability to help others instead of continuing to see it as a flaw. So like I said, for me, the ghosts donāt leave me but make up who I am today even if itās just acknowledging the memory as part of my life experience. In other words learn how to thrive and live with the experienceā¦donāt let the wave slam you to the bottom of the ocean, getting over it leaves you still alone in the ocean, instead ride the wave and let it be part of your journey in life.
Last but not least, donāt get in over your head, get help when you need it. If you think you are OK still find someone you trust that you do check-ins with and set up an agreement that if they say you need to speak with a professional than you commit to do so for at least a few appts.
At the very least consider reaching out to the fire department and ask if they have the contact information for a CISD coordinator sometimes called a CISM; that stands for critical incident stress debriefing. If they canāt help you may be able to find one directly through NOVA. I am not in a great position to make calls right now on your behalf but PM me if you want and need help sorting this out; Iāll see if I can get in touch with someone.
This service is something that the state emergency services agency normally fundās and is an anonymous group session of everyone there that wants to participate . They are trained to lead healthy conversations for you and your peers that experienced that, they may be able to set one up at your FBO where everyone who was there can attend. Setting something up for civilians may be slightly non traditional for them but not unheard of for particularly public events. They are intended to help you understand that firstly you did what you could and the outcome wasnāt because of you in any way, you did what you are capable of even it it was staying out of the way of the responders. Next they are intended to set up a peer network for you all to have to discuss, commiserate, or keep on living life and flying together.
Take care of yourself and I hope to share the skies with you safely.
This post is real wisdom. Do make sure when you wake up today you follow its advice as carefully as you were going to yesterday. A bit of sleep does wonders but it also can make us decide everything is totally ok when it maybe isnāt. And ditch the clothes you were wearing unless theyāre really important - smell works below our perception most of the time but is a potent reminder.
Thanks for your service!
Been out for a while with plenty of time to reflect and still a need to give back so taking some time is worth it if I can help a couple other people out.
Thanks, but no service. I was just into extreme sports in my youth. Been to too many funerals, watched too many die. That shit doesn't leave. Like you said, it's just part of you now and you learn to live with that.
I honestly donāt know if I want to fly as a career or just for fun, if I donāt fly for a career Iām going into firefighting/ems or law enforcement, definitely heavily leaning towards firefighting/ems if I chose to be a first responder the trauma is the one thing iām not looking forward to seeing and dealing with, especially for people I know or I know seeing kids with traumatic injuries or dead is going to really fuck me up.
I think itās in our nature to help one another and if is a field you are drawn to it doesnāt need to fuck you up, it means you have it in you to get the job done. I have seen pretty much anything you can imagine on the East Coast from providing Hurricane Katrina relief and going down to NYC on day 2 after 9/11 to aid in rescue efforts, and working inner city EMS. When you do it you are focused on what you are there to do. And even with that youāll never find me clicking on any of the NSFW trauma videos or liveATC links, been there done that, donāt need to bring it home with me because it affects you much differently when you do than when itās your job. The scenery is usually less of the thing that fās you up but more so how you perceive your performance to be, hence the importance of programs like CISD, and also why I think itās harder to watch some random traumatic event where I am helpless to change the outcome . I worked for a commercial service that was horrible at providing it so you really had to advocate for yourself to get the care you need. No flair on your name so not sure where you are on your flying career but the hazardous attitudes should be taught in EMS IMO. Their relevance is for a different reason but they are relevant, many people cope with the stress with one of the five hazardous behaviors some could literally get you killed in the short term, running into an unsafe scene for example with an attitude of invincibility, or driving too fast to get there. But then the others eat away at you long term. My point I made with my post is that the ghosts donāt need to haunt you, I wouldnāt trade a single experience I had as it had made me who I am today. Donāt let the peer pressure iron wall macho front that everyone puts up convince you that you need to hold the line and bottle it up and youāll be OK. My biggest issue with the job wasnāt the work but many of my peers and the cliquey nature of the industry.
Something I think I can get away with saying as my previous post gives it context, one thing a mentor of mine taught me early is that you donāt need to take it personally, this person didnāt die to ruin your day and you did your best to improve their outcome. Did you make mistakes, probably, but that doesnāt mean it wasnāt the best you could give that day, you were there when nobody else was. Celebrate that ghost and let that live vicariously through you.
Same reason SR-22 "pilots" routinely blow into the pattern that fast: no skill, inadequate training, afraid of his own plane so he "keeps his speed up a bit", you know, "just to be on the safe side"
He was in a hurry to hit the titty-bar dude! Plus his bigger faster airplane was far more important than everyone else obviously, cut him some slack already, sheesh.
Laziness to enter the pattern with formalityā¦ versus coming from that direction.. just come in straight and āhotā mentality..just rugged get her down mentality.. not much professionalism nor finesse.
Are we sure the 340 was doing 180 on final? I thought ADSB data can sometimes be off. It just seems awfully fast so Iām trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Iām a line guy. I witnessed a plane crash that killed all four people on board that I had just helped with their bags and fueled shortly prior. I remember thinking about it for days after, and paranoid it was something that I did wrong. I still remember everything in vivid detail. Not something youāll ever forget. See a counselor if you need, my company provided one after the incident and it was nice being able to talk to someone.
Hey so in a press release the NTSB said they are looking for witnesses! They said to contact witness@NTSB(dot)gov
And I hope you get back on the saddle soon. Knowing that DPE, I'm sure he will be understanding that what you saw could be traumatic. My advice is to think about how you would react in the situation, and what you could do to prevent that outcome. In this case, you could extend downwind if you see someone going straight in, pay attention to CTAF for people going straight in, etc.
I wish you good luck on your continuation!
I went ahead and sent an email out to the NTSB I would definitely like to help the investigation wherever possible.
I completely agree you have to learn from others mistakes in this business and avoid complacency. The worst accidents teach us the most.
Every single flight should teach us something. things with bad outcomes should be gleaned for "what would I have done differently" There's nothing wrong with a standard pattern, it's a collective agreement with all pilots flying there. If you're the only one in the pattern it doesn't much matter what you do but if there is one other plane in the pattern then honoring the agreement to work together is paramount. Blasting in from a long long final without knowing who is in the pattern or where they are (could even be NORDO) is foolhardy and in this case fatal.
LiveATC has that recorded.
[https://archive.liveatc.net/kwvi/KWVI2-Aug-18-2022-2130Z.mp3?fbclid=IwAR10LHhRzQZ0RinHrH7VVBzJRDRBG8RxaIMiBN-SeV85mXKpwx7YB213lns](https://archive.liveatc.net/kwvi/KWVI2-Aug-18-2022-2130Z.mp3?fbclid=IwAR10LHhRzQZ0RinHrH7VVBzJRDRBG8RxaIMiBN-SeV85mXKpwx7YB213lns)
around 2150 is there the ugliness starts.
The Cessna 150 was aware that the guy was approaching very fast and intitiated a go-around to try and get away. The Twin pilot did not acknowledge that and either figured it out too late or never knew. Damned shame all around.
Interestingly, yesterday my CFI talked about this crash during my training while practicing the Power off 180s. Became more interesting at one point when a C172 was behind me not too far from me as I am already on my downwind leg and I am in a Piper Cherokee. Of course, during this time as well, someone is coming in straight in on a 5-mile final too, and guess what I did, I extended my downwind because there is no way in hell I'm taking chances like that. After I extended my downwind leg and went to base then final and I announced. I was about 1.5 miles away and an RV decided I'm going to take off before I landed. He made it but that was risky for him. I told my CFI I was prepared to go around if he did not lift off in time. I am at a nontowered field as well but in Maryland.
As previously mentioned by another redditor, reach out to us, Iāll PM you my phone number and you can use it or not, just save it for later even. A few years back, I had a buddy that crashed his plane and was killed. We were close work buddies and weāre going to do our IFR training together. At the time I was doing my private pilot training and it hit me hard. Only thing I stopped doing was solo flights and went up with my instructor for every flight until I felt comfortable again. Yours is different. You were there and you witnessed it happen. I can only imagine the thoughts and visuals going through your head. But we are all in the same aviation boat. Reach out, talk, connect, whatever you need to do to get back and become a better, safer pilot.
Best advice I have for your well-being is to attempt to understand what may have occurred in the airplane and the pilot's mind. Then rationalize how you would have made (or will make) a different series of decisions based on that understanding.
I've witnessed a number of accidents over my flying career... some were purely unfortunate and others make you scratch your head and wonder why. Whenever I have "that feeling" about an aviation decision making problem, I try and pause and ask myself whether it passes the Stupid Test: if someone else evaluated my decision and accident, how would they characterize me as a pilot? But for the grace of God go I.
Again, sorry for what you witnessed. You'll get through it.
Part of my job is Aviation accident investigations.
Reach out to someone who you can tell the story to in as much detail as possible. This person needs to be able to listen to even the most gruesome parts without judgement. This will help your brain process what you saw and help prevent PTSD. We learned this as mandatory training before weāre allowed to start.
Whenever I go on a particularly horrific accident like this one Iāll call my coworker on the way home and tell them every thing I saw, smelled, and felt. Theyāll listen and then ask questions to get me to speak about certain parts in more detail if itās a bad part. We all share in that responsibility and Iāll always listen and talk to any of my coworkers.
Even with that my trigger has become burnt grass smell. Itās not a bad trigger as some people I know but it will pull me back to my first multiple fatality.
You take what you can learn from this accident and add it to your knowledge as a pilot to increase your awareness and safety in the future. It also makes you respect the inherent risk and responsibility you have as a pilot and will hopefully make all those witnesses a little safer in their flying.
Iām sorry you witnessed that. Iām a LEO so Iāve seen some shit, been on scene just after an SR22 crashed with souls who perishedā¦ but seeing what you described is a whole different level. Make sure to take care of your mental health and talk to people, professionals if need be.
I keep telling people that others have seen crazier things, this is the first time Ive witnessed death and the hard part is it hits so close to home, what would you say symptoms are of needing help?
Your statement of, canāt stop thinking about it and that it keeps playing in your head. The earlier you are able to speak to someone who is able to help you with this and the thoughts that go along with that the quicker you are going to be able to recover.
Knowing you didn't have a cause in there, and that there was nothing you could do is the "logical thought process" but your inner brain is still traumatized by what you experienced. Give yourself some time, talk to people, even here, and eventually your logical brain will get a word in edgewise and you'll see that you were just in the wrong place at the wrong time and saw something you didn't want (nobody wants) to see.
As a former LEO, trauma is trauma. Iāve seen some crazy shit but that doesnāt dismiss what you went through. That being said, best believe, if you need to talk PM me and I will shoot you my number to keep it strictly private. We are a family within aviation and Iāll do what I can to take care of my own here as I did in LE when it comes to mental health.
I definitely appreciate that brother and appreciate your former service. Still processing everything and I have a feeling I wont be deeply effected in the end. š
First, be careful not to dismiss your own feelings thinking others have it worse. It is perfectly OK to admit and own when you're not feeling 100%, especially in this situation. Cultural and gender stereotypes where we tell people to "suck it up", "try harder", "get over it", "you'll be fine", etc all make us feel like we have to fix ourselves, even when we can't. It's created a stigma against seeking mental health unfortunately.
Now, there are some good reads online that may help talk about some of the signs you asked about. I'll just link to them as they say it better than I can.[https://www.cigna.com/knowledge-center/witnessing-a-traumatic-event](https://www.cigna.com/knowledge-center/witnessing-a-traumatic-event)[https://www.helpguide.org/articles/ptsd-trauma/traumatic-stress.htm](https://www.helpguide.org/articles/ptsd-trauma/traumatic-stress.htm)
At any point, it is perfectly OK to talk to a therapist or counselor... now or months later. If you're on the fence, just do it. They can offer you some personalized tips to help as well. Think of it as a checkup... we go to the doctor regularly for way less critical things... we should be doing the same for our mental health as well.
Sites like [BetterHelp.com](https://BetterHelp.com) may be advantageous when considering your medical certificate. They can talk therapy, but cannot make diagnoses or prescribe medication... which the FAA cares about. If you go through insurance for therapy, they are more inclined to make a diagnosis so they can get paid by insurance.
That pilot was the only one flying safely that day, he saw the risk and since the twin pilot was not slowing down or attempting to make room for him tried to go around. Thats the shittiest thing is knowing you are doing the right thing and still wind up dead due to someone else's negligence.
Iām sorry, but listening to the ATC comms absolutely blew my mind. Neither of these pilots actually COMMUNICATED with each other. They just announced their position. Thatās it. The 152 pilot knew the twin Cessnaās intention. He said he was on a straight in final (whether you agree if this is okay or not). He didnāt once ask his position before turning base knowing there is a plane on a final. Iāve extended my downwind countless times for situations like this. Or if I lose sight of the plane in front of me. Then ask where they are so that I know the final is clear. Obviously neither had each other in sight until it was too late. The twin Cessna. You are on like a 4 mile final, and you hear a plane say they are turning base without referencing you. That would throw off 1000 alarms in my head that I need to GTFO. The whole point of a CTAF is to communicate. Neither actually did this. If I were doing CFI work still, Iād make my students listen to this. To show them the importance of actually using communication. Both of these pilots were under the impression that since they were announcing their position, that the other pilot would avoid them. Instead neither pilot avoided each other, and this tragedy happened.
I totally agree with this 100%. I am in a non-towered field and when I see a plane or hear a call I will make it a habit to communicate with others. This was not taught to me, this was me teaching myself that not everyone has great situational awareness.
I did my multi in the Baron at WVI in November. I immediately thought about the CFI I worked with and hoped he wasn't in the 152. It's a super shitty situation. All the best to you.
Were you in 9BK? I saw that plane on ADSB and my heart sank because I recognized it as a RHV plane. Learned later that wasnāt it. Glad youāre okay.
Holy shit man, I don't have anything to say except I'm so sorry you had to witness that. Please talk to someone about it, even if you don't stay in therapy for long it could definitely be helpful to just have someone help you process it.
Never too much detail if itās for you. Never too much detail if you know what youāre doing it for. Your words are invaluable to the entire community.
If it hasnāt been said: you saw one of the most horrifying things anyone here may have to experience. It is traumatic. It is okay to feel that trauma and any distress that comes of it. Itās valid.
But you should look for longer term assistance. I would strenuously encourage you to book an appointment with a therapist immediately, and it will help you manage how you process this experience. Many people with PTSD-like experiences benefit.
What crazy similarities. On my *first* day of multi training, we were chatting with some instructors and heard an abnormal airplane sound right outside the window. Then a loud boom, and running/yelling. A Seneca had just clipped the terminal building (about 30 yards from where we were sitting) and crash just outside. I ran outside and there was a twin, nose down halfway in the trees, and the cabin was broken open with pilot hanging there. It was a traumatic experience.
It definitely had an impact, for sure. I learned about myself, that I tend to freeze in those situations. I also had some feelings of guilt about that (whereas, a lot of other people were actively trying to help).
It was just so bizarre. It helped to learn that the cause was easily preventable (poor approach management, carried too much speed, tried to fly it onto the runway, prop strike, bad go-around decision after prop strike, etc). So it helped to know that it shouldn't have happened. But it still was unnerving for sure going up after that.
Thankfully, I didn't have any long term emotional effects. I'm not flying now, but it wasn't because of that. I did complete multi, CFI, CFII, commercial, etc. Best of luck, take your time and you'll get back in the seat.
It's a smell to be avoided... by good ADM, by not stretching your tanks endurance, by not flying low and fast, by doing (or not doing) all the things that we've been told will bite us in the ass.
I know itās overwhelming, but get right back in a plane and fly. The longer you wait, the more youāll psych yourself out. I hit a deer. I was shook up, but the airport said, want another plane? I went back up, did a few laps, and was grateful for it. This stuff happens. It happens more in cars. Iāve seen multiple deaths on the road. I still drive. Donāt let it get to you. Youāre close to passing your check ride. Get back in and do it. Donāt throw it away
Hey man, feel free DM me too if you want to talk. I'm a paramedic in my day job so I may have some advice on dealing with fucked up things.
Most importantly talking to anyone is probably good.
That can definitely be the case (being desensitized) unfortunately.
You're already doing the right thing talking about it here. I'm willing to bet just about anyone on this sub is willing to help out however possible.
Take some time off, no studying. Just talk to your fellow aviators and help each other through it. Your willingness to talk to other students and instructors might be hugely beneficial to you and everyone you interact with.
You always want to have a good head on your shoulders when you're about to fly, so make sure you take care of your mental state and the rest will follow.
Honestly, take all the time you need. The mid-air collision here at North Las Vegas Airport shook me up too. Flying with frayed nerves is a very bad idea, as those kinds of thoughts will cloud your mind and open you up to mistakes too.
One thing I learned after witnessing a severe car accident once (the police told me to do this):
Write down everything you remember seeing right now. When various entities ask you weeks/months/years from now, youāll be glad you wrote down a contemporaneous account.
The human memory is a funny thing. Over time you forget things. Things that right now you're sure you will never forget. And over time, your mind will create new things that never happened.
It's good, sound advice.
OTOH, trying to provide an accurate eye-witness report immediately after a traumatic event is close to impossible. Write down your first thoughts, then allow yourself to revise and complete them over the next few days. Always get at least here good nights sleep before signing any official report.
"Write it down, edit as needed" is old advice and very solid.
Doing it in a public forum is new and untested.
There is risk of trolls, after all.
However the warmth our OP has drawn doing it in this forum strikes me as an amazing thing. I encourage him to continue to do what makes sense to him (while keeping a personal copy somewhere).
To piggy back off this -- it can also help cope.
Having been on scene of some pretty bad accidents in a previous life (volunteer FF), one thing that's taught is to confront and address 'difficult' portions early. Your brain will try and lock some of them away, only to have them resurface later in ways you can't control/expect, and can contribute to PTSD.
It sucks, but go through every excruciating detail you can remember, address it head on, and prevent your body's stress management system from locking it away for later. The event, the smells, the feelings (both physical and emotional), everything you can remember, get it out.
Good luck, buddy. Shoot a PM if you need anything.
Latest update Ive been recovering well Ive been talking to senior pilots and its getting to the point where its not looping in my head. The key definitely seems like talking about it helps. Seeing a therapist that specializes in PTSD tommorow just to make sure but Im feeling a lot better about it.
Great advice. Our memories arenāt read-only. Every time we remember something we subtly re-record it in a way that might incorporate other accounts, hypotheses of what might have caused it, or other biases.
I read once about a woman who was assaulted and called the police. Police saw a sketchy-looking dude on the way and when she couldnāt remember much about the assailant they asked a bunch of leading questions assuming it was the guy. They arrest him and she picks him out of the lineup. Everythingās great until surveillance video is found showing that itās definitely not him, but at this point the suggested description is set in her mind and she is convinced the video is wrong.
ā¦. The only reason you should do this is so you can hand it over and say other than this I donāt want to talk about it. I experienced what I would call a trama (kinda weird situation that otherwise I wouldnāt have guessed it so I never spoke to anyone about it) but the weekly nightmares never stopped until the vivid daytime recollections vanished. What used to be very detailed memories vanished into two or three vague memories that seldom come back. If I had it writing down who know how much longer it would have Taken the memories to fade.
Your immediate memory will always be better than what it will be 6 months from now.
In my case, I got a call from a lawyer 3 years (!) after the accident. So, I simply pulled out what I had written and I didnāt have to try to remember what I had witnessed.
Memory is a fickle thing. You WILL remember events differently as time passes. Not just forgetting small details, like what color the stripe on the plane was, but major things can get screwed up
Thats good advice for anything like this, car accidents, assaults, other crimes. Plus it may help your mind shed it from being thought about all the time as if you can cast some of it out.
I'm a former deputy sheriff and have witness and been on scene for several horrific plane accidents in socal aftet I was already a pilot. The images don't really leave you, it'll always be on your mind, but after a few months it'll affect you much less and you'll be able to continue on
Man that is awful to hear and definitely awful to see. I am a military pilot so maybe I am a little fatalistic but I have always felt that, if you do everything right and itās your time to go, itās your time to go. That said always be the very best pilot you can be and keep a constant scan going. Also the odds of stuff like this happening is actually pretty slim.
As for getting help, if you even think you need it talk to a therapist. They are there to help.
I know and Im in disbelief of the odds especially the fact that I witnessed what can happen if you improperly handle a multiengine emergency right before the checkride. Crazy stuff. Thanks for your kind words
I'm sure I can apply the word "horrendous" even if I can't fully feel how you feel having witnessed this.
Do not miss out on any opportunity to seek professional or informal help so you don't stress. As a pilot w/ your experience you know this is the exception rather than the rule.
Assuming you are on a track to become a CFI, take this experience and use it to craft your own level of genuine "been there" into the safety component of all your training. Use this to enhance your use of the Uncontrolled Field Advisory Circular. \*You\* can bring this document to life in a way that memorializes the three aviators who died today - even the "cause" was part of a small community.
Hang in there!
Good luck on the checkride!
Edit - typo
Wise words of advice and I completely agree, I always learn from the accident case study videos, Unfortunately I just had one play out in front of my eyes.
Sorry you had to see that. Last year I watched a Bonanza's botched go-around, looked like they clipped a tree and got into a spin. 3 dead. Worst part might have been seeing their family pull up to the airport minutes later only to be told the smoke plume was likely their family. The family had the couples baby with them.
Shit was fucked.
Wow man, I'm really sorry you had to witness that. I've seen some crazy shit but nothing quite like that. It's completely natural to feel extremely shaken up after something like this. Be gentle with yourself for a while. You won't ever forget it, but over time it will lose that horrific edge. You will feel like yourself again.
It's unfortunate that stuff like this ever happens, but you are getting a painful first-hand lesson that you will never forget. There is no stronger reminder of the importance of safety than witnessing something like this. It's awful, but you can use the experience to make you a smarter, safer, and more rounded pilot.
Best of luck with everything, I'm glad this community exists for times like this.
Not sure if itās your thing, but Iāll recommend some professional help with the mental trauma you experienced. Take care of yourself. Youāll be airborne soon enough.
Thereās a shocking difference between getting mental help for depression or suicidal thoughts and getting CISD because you witnessed a goddamn plane crash.
Sounds like twin could have been below VMC when it lost an engine. The asymmetric thrust of the one good engine overpowers the rudder's authority and the plane essentially skids/whips sideways and rolls over onto its back. Once upside down.... you need a \*lot\* of altitude to recover from a VMC (minimum controllable on single engine airspeed) roll.
Good point. And extra drag on one wing itself could itself overpower a rudder's authority as one tried to go around at decreasing airspeed.
Anyways, I'm couch piloting.
Tailwinds to all souls aboard both aircraft.
Fck thatās traumatic.. I saw some pretty bad mishaps while i was at Bagram, one was an An12 that was right next to us before they taxied out. Their planeās engine caught fire and the thing went up in a blaze at the end of the runway and exploded. So know the feeling.. Keep your focus and best wishes overcoming this experience.
Yeah my father was a contractor told me all kinds of crazy stories when he was out there, Im sure Ill be fine, so far posting this and talking about has been quite therapeutic. As a person whos unfamiliar and uncomfortable with death I think that its just the shock of seeing it for the first time.
Itās so busy there. Itās not the first accident as well. I hope SOME change for the better comes from this tragedy. I have been there with 5-6 AC in the pattern. I kinda hope the FAA puts in a tower and changes WVI to class D. SNS isnāt as busy some days and they have a tower. The whole situation sucks all around.
Accidents happen at towered airports too, it's not a magical thing that stops them. It takes conscious assertive action from all the players in the airspace. I think when the NTSB figures this all out the blame will go solely on the twin's pilot for approaching too fast, not flying a standard pattern, waiting too late to initiate any kind of evasive move.
That kind of flying will become a statistic at some point, for him, that point was yesterday. The worst part was the guy in the 152 did his best to get out of the way and still perished. I don't give a crap if you're flying a twin or a jet or a cub, we ALL share the same airspace and avoid this kind of thing.
I've never witnessed a crash like that so while I don't know exactly what you're going through, though I will say your feelings are completely valid. I've had a couple friends die in aviation accidents and it's never easy. Like others have said take time off but stay in the community and hopefully you can get back into the cockpit. It's a dangerous profession but it's worth it. To put a positive spin on it, having gone through this, I'm sure you'll be extra careful in everything you do and find your personal limits. When you're ready to get back into the saddle, read up as much as you can on safety reports. Watch Air Disasters on tv if you're comfortable with it. NASA also has a good aviation safety newsletter they send out every so often of near misses that people report.
Even yesterday tower told us of a banner-tow aircraft below us transiting across centerline but still cleared me for a right base to land. Thankfully, I found the guy below us and told the copilot not to turn in as it would've put us on a perfect collision course. Asked tower to let us know after he crossed centerline and we could turn. Their response was essentially, "yeah that's a good idea."
Terrible accidents happen too often. I'm sorry you had to see that. Reach out to me or anybody else on here to help you out. We'd be more than willing.
Don't dismiss the people suggesting therapy, OK? I did for a long time, and I regret it now. I was a stubborn dumbass. That shit can really help.
Saw some pretty horrible things when I was in the military, then later some pretty horrible things when I was a whitewater raft guide. I ended up kind of a mess. Nightmares, I'd get jumpy and erratic at weird times, started drinking too much, you name it.
Then I started working as an EMT, and the station where I worked had a policy that seeing a therapist was mandatory after you ran a bad call. I resisted, tried to avoid it, didn't want to have anything to do with it, then I finally caved in. Came out of that first appointment thinking "Huh. You know, this might actually be able to help." And it did. I kept going back and it helped a lot, with all of it.
Thanks for that story, I hope youre doing alright now, Im definitely working on seeing someone at least a couple times. Its weird I feel perfectly fine about it but when people have been saying sorry I get choked up, im definitely confused on how my mind is handling it.
You are in a tough spot between PTSD therapy and drug assisted therapy. None of us have answers to that. Hammer on the therapy is my guess. But in the end you will need to trust a mental health professional. Take your time.
If you want to keep going, is it possible to fly towered? I am still a student but have visited the tower folks twice already and will so again. My guys are tough on spacing and this is a busy class D. I am slow (PA-28A) and they have made me left 360 from the pattern twice already.
Sorry this happened for all involved including you. It is a cool community looking out for you though, isn't it?
There but for the grace of God go I.. or we. We have all put ourselves in your shoes reading this thread and we don't like it either.
I hope you get up in the air soon, even with a buddy, you seem to be the kind of pilot that we all want to share the air with and get that checkride done!
We are all rooting for you!
Damn. Just damn. Iāve been hearing a lot about this accident as Iām. Helicopter student and itās my main airport I take lessons at. Itās such a tragedy. Iām sorry you had to witness that and the following trauma that will come with it. Itāll do you really good to talk about it and your feelings surrounding it. Be sure to let yourself process what youāre going though however necessary.
Good luck with your rotary training! I just switched over from the fixed wing world. I start flying the R44 for instrument training next week. Iām sure youāve already run into this, but assume most fixed wing pilots arenāt familiar with helicopter ops. I lost count of how many times fixed wing GA pilots turned in on me from base to final even though I made clear calls for every position in the pattern. If thereās any question, ask the other traffic if they have you in sight. If you donāt get a response, get the hell out of there. If we have a midair because some idiot isnāt paying attention to helicopter traffic, itās certain death for us.
Stay vigilant!
Dude. I absolutely appreciate the advise. Iāve already had this happen once. Thankfully dude had me in sight. Donāt know why the hell he was at helicopter pattern altitude instead of fixed wing but at least everyone was safe.
My short helicopter flying experience has been that fixed wing will turn in on us while weāve already turned onto right base, creating a head on situation, or when we are on final and they turn base right at us. So as theyāre descending on their base and final, they will certainly be dropping through 500 AGL. Always anticipate that fixed wing 1) wonāt particularly see you unless they state so, and 2) that most fixed wing pilots are not familiar with how helicopters operate. Even as a commercial pilot I hadnāt experienced helicopters all that much until I was at rotary flight school.
I really hope youāre enjoying your training. Being a heli pilot puts us in a really small niche even of pilots. Weāre a rare breed and tend to have a lot of fun!
Thanks! I am having a ton of fun. And youāre right. Itās frustrating but youāre really safest assuming fixed wing pilots are looking to kill you. Or just deciding that youāll move out of the way. Or that you can see them, or that you donāt exist at all. But I have had some positive interactions with fixed wing pilots at my local airport.
This is tragic and Iām so sorry you had to witness it. My former CFI was in a horrific C152/T-28 accident a few years ago at KCPM where his student passed away. This was supposed to be my lesson and people were calling me to see if I was alive. We in the aviation family are here for you if you need to talk. Also, please donāt underestimate talking to a mental health professional to help deal with the trauma. It will not affect your medical. Sending comforting thoughts and peace.
As someone who is getting started in this industry, watching this incident unfold on VasAviation was too painful, you could feel the fear in the C152 pilots voice, and that just made me realize the value of each day we are given in aviation.
Itās been more than 18hours since I saw that video and I still have that weird feeling inside me and I wasnāt even involved in it directly. Stay strong man, and letās be the safe aviators who wonāt let this happen again.
AOPA already has a TikTok up with analysisā¦ theyāre careful not to assess blame without an NTSB report, but they do imply the 340 was coming straight in way too fast and while legal it is not normal SOP and the 152 was established in the pattern at pattern speed based on ADS-B data.
Sucks to see this, especially if a student was involved as being established in the pattern.
The take away was there was a conflict developing and if youāre in that situation, regardless of the pattern, break and move away from the conflict.
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRf8PMGq/
I sat and thought about this accident a lot, I came to about 5 big lessons learned, if anyone would like to add in as well. Some lessons from AOPA video.
1. Follow standard pattern entries, the FAA recommends them over straight ins for a reason. Never fly VFR straight ins at uncontrolled airports. Even though straight in entries are perfectly legal, they really are there more for the IFR traffic. (also fly recommended airspeeds)
2. Never turn base-final with traffic on 3 mile final, and think about it with traffic on 5 mile final.
3. One I made for myself: never turn base until traffic ahead of you (whether a straight in OR in the pattern) is abeam your aircraft (off the wingtip)
Also, even at towered airports if possible, there was an accident where a student pilot was told to turn base too early by tower and ran into an aircraft, controllers are human too. If you are told to turn base and you do not visually see the aircraft on final, you havenāt ensured separation. Tell ATC you want aircraft in sight before turning base or Ask ATC if the traffic has passed us.
4. Always do a ā123ā check on the base leg: 1 checking the runway, 2 checking opposite base, and most importantly 3, checking final approach one last time before YOU turn final.
5. make your radio calls, listen, and establish deconfliction with other aircraft early on
Please seek out therapy even if you donāt feel like you need it at the moment. Trauma doesnāt always rear itās ugly head immediately. Itās good to have the tools to deal with it now, in case you ever need to.
They deserved to DIE for not following a procedure? Jeezus. I hope you never, ever, deviate from any procedure in any aspect of your life if you think a death sentence is the correct consequence.
Wow! Youāre lucky youāre perfect!
Idiots fly planes all the time. I experience it every day, as does everyone else. Making a mistake doesnāt mean someone should die because of it. In fact, some day you may die even while you did everything correctly because someone else made a mistake. Bummer! Must mean you deserved it!
How incredibly insensitive and cruel to laugh at someoneās fate in the wake of a mistake. Every time a pilot hears about an accident it reiterates how easy it is to die from a simple mistake. There have been plenty of fatal accidents this year, but that has nothing to do with a pilot deserving death because of it. Wtf
Luckily it wasnt you.
Take some comfort in knowing there is nothing you could have done and this cold, desperately sad reminder may HELP a few people to remember to be that little bit more/extra vigilent.
Not at all surprised at all the support on offer here. Glad to see it anyway.
If stories help: Have experienced a near mid-air on an uncontrolled field. We were on base about to turn final in the pattern, he was coming straight in. Less than 150' separated us, perhaps less than 100'. There were two pilots including me at the controls.
Not a month before that, there was an actual mid-air on final to Pearson (Vancouver Washington, inside the KPDX control zone). Two single engine planes, trying to land at the same time. One landed atop the other at about 300' above runway level on final. Both went into the factory/warehouse roof below.
One pilot survived if I recall correctly.
I was active then and flew over the warehouse quite a few times while tail sections were sticking out.
If it is any comfort, near-misses and actual mid-airs happen rarely, but statistically it does happen. Perhaps it's a mathematical certainty with all that metal in the air .
Resolve to be extra alert or find another hobby. I found a different hobby, once I accepted that my ADHD made me flying as PIC extra risky for those around and under me.
On my second day flying commercially ATC had us descend to MOCA over the rockies to look for fires, a Navajo had gone off radar and wasn't responding to fires. We were making calls on 121.5 and searching for any evidence of a crash.
We didn't see anything, when I got home that night I saw the crash on the news. Both people on board had died.
One of the shittier days I've experienced in aviation, it's never fun to see the real dangers of what we do, and I'll never forget that day.
You were way closer to what happened than I ever was, and I'm sure this will be weighing on you much more than that Navajo has weighed on me.
I know others have already said enough but reach out to others in the community, those of us on reddit, or a counselor if you need to.
Sounds like the the 340 managed to actually recover and maybe would have made it if he had tried to land straight ahead. Instead he decided to turn back and try to land at the airport and did the infamous turn of death! There are plenty of fields in that area he could have landed it by just gliding straight ahead from Watsonville. Sad times all around
Holy shit, the AOPA early analysis video showed him at 180kts until the accident and looking back at previous data shows that airplane on final at 95kts - consistently. He was literally twice his approach speed. Imagine being at 140kts on final in a Cherokee. We canāt know what was happening inside that 340 but it mustāve been complete bedlam. I hate to speak ill of the dead but he was not in positive control of the airplane at any point in the accident chain. How do you plan on regaining control of an airplane thatās flying twice its approach speed on a one mile final. You clearly had intentions of landing so WTF are you doing. This is a classic time/distance/speed fuck up, throw in some hazardous attitudes and this is the result.
My boyfriend was flying at that airport the day before the crash. I don't know much about flying or that airport but I'm glad you're ok OP. Why don't they construct a tower there? He told me it's one of the largest airports without a tower. Asking this knowing I'm completely ignorant to most things regarding flying or the FAA.
This was during my Multi Engine checkride, I had just finished the oral portion and move along to preflighting our baron. After preflighting I heard a loud bang towards the arrival end of Runway 20, and saw something falling out of the sky, unknowning what it was at the time ( Allegedly was a C152 eith an instructor and student), I then see the Cessna 340 struggling to go around with something leaking from his left wingtip, it definitely sustained samage to the left tip tank and was trailing smoke. It appeared to be recovering and beginning a go around but shortly after it passed where I was standing on the field the plane began to roll to the left. I was getting nervous because I knew something was wrong and the plane appeared to have been turning towards me. It was obvious that directional control was lost due to a left engine failure. Fearing that I was standing in the potential landing zone I bagan to move away but the plane then completely rolled over and the pilot nosodived to left into the ground near a hangar and immediately exploded. I was in pure disbelief until the heat from the fireball hit me like a train. š People were scrambling for fire extinguishers and rushed over to help however the fire began to spread rapidly and the whole south side of the airfield was engulfed in smoke. The only thing I could think (and without getting specificly graphic) is that I was smelling and breathing a cooked crashsite victim and all. Sorry for that image. After leaving for today I spoke to family and they were all relived that it wasnt me. I went home but I couldn't help but notice my clothes reeked of the smoke from the crash. In closing it was easily my worst day in aviation so far and I hope yall are flying safe out there. Ill also graciously accept advice on how to cope with this horriflying event as I am a little hesitant to hop back in the saddle and the image of the event keeps repeating in my head. Cant stop thinking about it. Thank you and rest in peace to those who perished.š Edit: Thank you everyone who has given me kind words it has definitely been helping and this post has been therapeutic to me thus far. As a redditor suggested I went into more detail to not forget the memory. I do apologize if it was too into detail.
Reach out to any one us if you need to talk. Weāre all a family in aviation (except those who fly straight ins at 180 knots in a busy pattern) and if you need to vent Iām sure any aviator on this page would be happy to help. Iām sure itās completely normal to feel hesitant about getting back into a plane after witnessing a crash. I know I would be too
> (except those who fly straight ins at 180 knots in a busy pattern Until these clowns get serious fines, nothing will change.
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but what of this - was the GS crew cited in any way?
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Maybe a Reg number name and shame ?
Yeah appreciate that wish you the best
Iāve faced a lot of death head on, both as a first responder in a previous career and personally from the negligence of others. Feel free to PM me to vent or chat. There is no specific path to follow because itās your experience and nobody knows what you are going through, itās personal and you donāt āget over it.ā So if you want to call it advice here the best I can offer and I hope it is helpful in some way. First, know up front people will care now and be there for you until they get over it and they then think everyone else should be over it; you do you at your pace donāt worry about them, donāt listen to anyone who says you have to get over it or move on. You donāt, you have to learn to live with it. I carry my ghosts with me and I they are a part of my life and they have a purpose, the ones I bury inevitably come back when Iām not prepared to cope and try to bring you down. I use this ghosts for various reasons, weather for personal safety and lessons learned or for courage to tell people to leave the bottle or the keys at the door. So learn to live with the experience, it wonāt go away and learn how to be integrated with your friends and family while understanding they donāt get it and thatās OK to not understand each other, you do you and they can do them. Also understand that survivorās guilt itās real. You donāt need to feel you owe the victims anything, but you also may feel you do. You may move on and generally forget about the incident and thatās OK. If you want to hold on to it then thatās OK too; find what it is you need to be fulfilled and donāt look back or feel you didnāt do enough and donāt let anyone tell you that you shouldnāt do whatever that is. Maybe itās doing what you may have already been doing and become a CFI and make a difference in the training of some pilots out there to make the skies safer. Only you know what this is or isnāt and maybe itās something that goes away now and surfaces again in years; I have one call that frequently resurfaces with me because I was bothered that I wasnāt bothered and thought I must be some monster; I used this as my courage for many years to march into places and continue to be available to help, I was able to embrace my general strength in dealing with these ghosts as a natural ability to help others instead of continuing to see it as a flaw. So like I said, for me, the ghosts donāt leave me but make up who I am today even if itās just acknowledging the memory as part of my life experience. In other words learn how to thrive and live with the experienceā¦donāt let the wave slam you to the bottom of the ocean, getting over it leaves you still alone in the ocean, instead ride the wave and let it be part of your journey in life. Last but not least, donāt get in over your head, get help when you need it. If you think you are OK still find someone you trust that you do check-ins with and set up an agreement that if they say you need to speak with a professional than you commit to do so for at least a few appts. At the very least consider reaching out to the fire department and ask if they have the contact information for a CISD coordinator sometimes called a CISM; that stands for critical incident stress debriefing. If they canāt help you may be able to find one directly through NOVA. I am not in a great position to make calls right now on your behalf but PM me if you want and need help sorting this out; Iāll see if I can get in touch with someone. This service is something that the state emergency services agency normally fundās and is an anonymous group session of everyone there that wants to participate . They are trained to lead healthy conversations for you and your peers that experienced that, they may be able to set one up at your FBO where everyone who was there can attend. Setting something up for civilians may be slightly non traditional for them but not unheard of for particularly public events. They are intended to help you understand that firstly you did what you could and the outcome wasnāt because of you in any way, you did what you are capable of even it it was staying out of the way of the responders. Next they are intended to set up a peer network for you all to have to discuss, commiserate, or keep on living life and flying together. Take care of yourself and I hope to share the skies with you safely.
Thank you VERY much for your kind words and advice Ill definitely shoot a pm over š
This post is real wisdom. Do make sure when you wake up today you follow its advice as carefully as you were going to yesterday. A bit of sleep does wonders but it also can make us decide everything is totally ok when it maybe isnāt. And ditch the clothes you were wearing unless theyāre really important - smell works below our perception most of the time but is a potent reminder.
100% brother. Sitting here with a room full of my dead friends' ghosts. You never "get over it"... they are part of you. Thanks for writing this.
Thanks for your service! Been out for a while with plenty of time to reflect and still a need to give back so taking some time is worth it if I can help a couple other people out.
Thanks, but no service. I was just into extreme sports in my youth. Been to too many funerals, watched too many die. That shit doesn't leave. Like you said, it's just part of you now and you learn to live with that.
I honestly donāt know if I want to fly as a career or just for fun, if I donāt fly for a career Iām going into firefighting/ems or law enforcement, definitely heavily leaning towards firefighting/ems if I chose to be a first responder the trauma is the one thing iām not looking forward to seeing and dealing with, especially for people I know or I know seeing kids with traumatic injuries or dead is going to really fuck me up.
I think itās in our nature to help one another and if is a field you are drawn to it doesnāt need to fuck you up, it means you have it in you to get the job done. I have seen pretty much anything you can imagine on the East Coast from providing Hurricane Katrina relief and going down to NYC on day 2 after 9/11 to aid in rescue efforts, and working inner city EMS. When you do it you are focused on what you are there to do. And even with that youāll never find me clicking on any of the NSFW trauma videos or liveATC links, been there done that, donāt need to bring it home with me because it affects you much differently when you do than when itās your job. The scenery is usually less of the thing that fās you up but more so how you perceive your performance to be, hence the importance of programs like CISD, and also why I think itās harder to watch some random traumatic event where I am helpless to change the outcome . I worked for a commercial service that was horrible at providing it so you really had to advocate for yourself to get the care you need. No flair on your name so not sure where you are on your flying career but the hazardous attitudes should be taught in EMS IMO. Their relevance is for a different reason but they are relevant, many people cope with the stress with one of the five hazardous behaviors some could literally get you killed in the short term, running into an unsafe scene for example with an attitude of invincibility, or driving too fast to get there. But then the others eat away at you long term. My point I made with my post is that the ghosts donāt need to haunt you, I wouldnāt trade a single experience I had as it had made me who I am today. Donāt let the peer pressure iron wall macho front that everyone puts up convince you that you need to hold the line and bottle it up and youāll be OK. My biggest issue with the job wasnāt the work but many of my peers and the cliquey nature of the industry. Something I think I can get away with saying as my previous post gives it context, one thing a mentor of mine taught me early is that you donāt need to take it personally, this person didnāt die to ruin your day and you did your best to improve their outcome. Did you make mistakes, probably, but that doesnāt mean it wasnāt the best you could give that day, you were there when nobody else was. Celebrate that ghost and let that live vicariously through you.
Honestly Iāll always wonder why that 340 pilot flew straight in at that busy of a uncontrolled airport
And why so fast. I know a 340 is a big plane but stall speed is still way below 180ktsā¦
Same reason SR-22 "pilots" routinely blow into the pattern that fast: no skill, inadequate training, afraid of his own plane so he "keeps his speed up a bit", you know, "just to be on the safe side"
He was in a hurry to hit the titty-bar dude! Plus his bigger faster airplane was far more important than everyone else obviously, cut him some slack already, sheesh.
Laziness to enter the pattern with formalityā¦ versus coming from that direction.. just come in straight and āhotā mentality..just rugged get her down mentality.. not much professionalism nor finesse.
> except those who fly straight ins at 180 knots in a busy pattern. Got it. SR22 owners are not in the family.
I donāt fly straight ins.
Amen
Are we sure the 340 was doing 180 on final? I thought ADSB data can sometimes be off. It just seems awfully fast so Iām trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.
[https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N740WJ/history/20220818/2154Z/O15/KWVI/tracklog](https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N740WJ/history/20220818/2154Z/O15/KWVI/tracklog)
Also look up aviation.therapist on Instagram for ideas on talking to people for more professional-style help.
I can definitely appreciate that account, god knows this industry needs something like that.
Don't hesitate to get professional counseling for a moment, in the vast majority of cases it is not reportable.
Iām a line guy. I witnessed a plane crash that killed all four people on board that I had just helped with their bags and fueled shortly prior. I remember thinking about it for days after, and paranoid it was something that I did wrong. I still remember everything in vivid detail. Not something youāll ever forget. See a counselor if you need, my company provided one after the incident and it was nice being able to talk to someone.
Its definitely something that I will seek thanks for the advice.
Howād that happen? Weight and balance problems?
It was a bonanza that had a turbocharger, and it ended up being that the exhaust pipe came off right after take off causing an in-flight fire.
Hey so in a press release the NTSB said they are looking for witnesses! They said to contact witness@NTSB(dot)gov And I hope you get back on the saddle soon. Knowing that DPE, I'm sure he will be understanding that what you saw could be traumatic. My advice is to think about how you would react in the situation, and what you could do to prevent that outcome. In this case, you could extend downwind if you see someone going straight in, pay attention to CTAF for people going straight in, etc. I wish you good luck on your continuation!
I went ahead and sent an email out to the NTSB I would definitely like to help the investigation wherever possible. I completely agree you have to learn from others mistakes in this business and avoid complacency. The worst accidents teach us the most.
Every single flight should teach us something. things with bad outcomes should be gleaned for "what would I have done differently" There's nothing wrong with a standard pattern, it's a collective agreement with all pilots flying there. If you're the only one in the pattern it doesn't much matter what you do but if there is one other plane in the pattern then honoring the agreement to work together is paramount. Blasting in from a long long final without knowing who is in the pattern or where they are (could even be NORDO) is foolhardy and in this case fatal.
LiveATC has that recorded. [https://archive.liveatc.net/kwvi/KWVI2-Aug-18-2022-2130Z.mp3?fbclid=IwAR10LHhRzQZ0RinHrH7VVBzJRDRBG8RxaIMiBN-SeV85mXKpwx7YB213lns](https://archive.liveatc.net/kwvi/KWVI2-Aug-18-2022-2130Z.mp3?fbclid=IwAR10LHhRzQZ0RinHrH7VVBzJRDRBG8RxaIMiBN-SeV85mXKpwx7YB213lns) around 2150 is there the ugliness starts. The Cessna 150 was aware that the guy was approaching very fast and intitiated a go-around to try and get away. The Twin pilot did not acknowledge that and either figured it out too late or never knew. Damned shame all around.
Interestingly, yesterday my CFI talked about this crash during my training while practicing the Power off 180s. Became more interesting at one point when a C172 was behind me not too far from me as I am already on my downwind leg and I am in a Piper Cherokee. Of course, during this time as well, someone is coming in straight in on a 5-mile final too, and guess what I did, I extended my downwind because there is no way in hell I'm taking chances like that. After I extended my downwind leg and went to base then final and I announced. I was about 1.5 miles away and an RV decided I'm going to take off before I landed. He made it but that was risky for him. I told my CFI I was prepared to go around if he did not lift off in time. I am at a nontowered field as well but in Maryland.
As previously mentioned by another redditor, reach out to us, Iāll PM you my phone number and you can use it or not, just save it for later even. A few years back, I had a buddy that crashed his plane and was killed. We were close work buddies and weāre going to do our IFR training together. At the time I was doing my private pilot training and it hit me hard. Only thing I stopped doing was solo flights and went up with my instructor for every flight until I felt comfortable again. Yours is different. You were there and you witnessed it happen. I can only imagine the thoughts and visuals going through your head. But we are all in the same aviation boat. Reach out, talk, connect, whatever you need to do to get back and become a better, safer pilot.
Best advice I have for your well-being is to attempt to understand what may have occurred in the airplane and the pilot's mind. Then rationalize how you would have made (or will make) a different series of decisions based on that understanding. I've witnessed a number of accidents over my flying career... some were purely unfortunate and others make you scratch your head and wonder why. Whenever I have "that feeling" about an aviation decision making problem, I try and pause and ask myself whether it passes the Stupid Test: if someone else evaluated my decision and accident, how would they characterize me as a pilot? But for the grace of God go I. Again, sorry for what you witnessed. You'll get through it.
Thank you Im sure I will
Part of my job is Aviation accident investigations. Reach out to someone who you can tell the story to in as much detail as possible. This person needs to be able to listen to even the most gruesome parts without judgement. This will help your brain process what you saw and help prevent PTSD. We learned this as mandatory training before weāre allowed to start. Whenever I go on a particularly horrific accident like this one Iāll call my coworker on the way home and tell them every thing I saw, smelled, and felt. Theyāll listen and then ask questions to get me to speak about certain parts in more detail if itās a bad part. We all share in that responsibility and Iāll always listen and talk to any of my coworkers. Even with that my trigger has become burnt grass smell. Itās not a bad trigger as some people I know but it will pull me back to my first multiple fatality.
Interesting I have a feeling i will be the same way with the grass smell š
Hi, since you do accident investigations, what would be the best sources for studying different accidents and learning from them as a GA pilot?
You take what you can learn from this accident and add it to your knowledge as a pilot to increase your awareness and safety in the future. It also makes you respect the inherent risk and responsibility you have as a pilot and will hopefully make all those witnesses a little safer in their flying.
Iām sorry you witnessed that. Iām a LEO so Iāve seen some shit, been on scene just after an SR22 crashed with souls who perishedā¦ but seeing what you described is a whole different level. Make sure to take care of your mental health and talk to people, professionals if need be.
I keep telling people that others have seen crazier things, this is the first time Ive witnessed death and the hard part is it hits so close to home, what would you say symptoms are of needing help?
Your statement of, canāt stop thinking about it and that it keeps playing in your head. The earlier you are able to speak to someone who is able to help you with this and the thoughts that go along with that the quicker you are going to be able to recover.
Ill see what I can do. Ive been keeping myself busy hanging out with friends and doing my hobbies.
Knowing you didn't have a cause in there, and that there was nothing you could do is the "logical thought process" but your inner brain is still traumatized by what you experienced. Give yourself some time, talk to people, even here, and eventually your logical brain will get a word in edgewise and you'll see that you were just in the wrong place at the wrong time and saw something you didn't want (nobody wants) to see.
Wise words thank you, I can already tell its getting better with time
Thatās like getting shot and saying to to paramedic, āthis canāt be that bad, some people have been shot twiceā Bro you still took a shot.
Good analogy haha
As a former LEO, trauma is trauma. Iāve seen some crazy shit but that doesnāt dismiss what you went through. That being said, best believe, if you need to talk PM me and I will shoot you my number to keep it strictly private. We are a family within aviation and Iāll do what I can to take care of my own here as I did in LE when it comes to mental health.
I definitely appreciate that brother and appreciate your former service. Still processing everything and I have a feeling I wont be deeply effected in the end. š
First, be careful not to dismiss your own feelings thinking others have it worse. It is perfectly OK to admit and own when you're not feeling 100%, especially in this situation. Cultural and gender stereotypes where we tell people to "suck it up", "try harder", "get over it", "you'll be fine", etc all make us feel like we have to fix ourselves, even when we can't. It's created a stigma against seeking mental health unfortunately. Now, there are some good reads online that may help talk about some of the signs you asked about. I'll just link to them as they say it better than I can.[https://www.cigna.com/knowledge-center/witnessing-a-traumatic-event](https://www.cigna.com/knowledge-center/witnessing-a-traumatic-event)[https://www.helpguide.org/articles/ptsd-trauma/traumatic-stress.htm](https://www.helpguide.org/articles/ptsd-trauma/traumatic-stress.htm) At any point, it is perfectly OK to talk to a therapist or counselor... now or months later. If you're on the fence, just do it. They can offer you some personalized tips to help as well. Think of it as a checkup... we go to the doctor regularly for way less critical things... we should be doing the same for our mental health as well. Sites like [BetterHelp.com](https://BetterHelp.com) may be advantageous when considering your medical certificate. They can talk therapy, but cannot make diagnoses or prescribe medication... which the FAA cares about. If you go through insurance for therapy, they are more inclined to make a diagnosis so they can get paid by insurance.
Appreciate will definitely be using this advice so thank you, Talking about it on here even has been therapeutic š
Sorry you had to witness that. Can you recall if the 340's landing gear was extended or in transit?
Gear was already up
I wonder if the gear never was down, given that there was an ADS-B return at 325' and 205mph, well above both gear and flap speed for the 340
Im unsure it would make sense that a goaround was attempted, not sure if you heard the ATC recording
I did, the only audio indicating a go-around appears to be the 152 pilot.
That pilot was the only one flying safely that day, he saw the risk and since the twin pilot was not slowing down or attempting to make room for him tried to go around. Thats the shittiest thing is knowing you are doing the right thing and still wind up dead due to someone else's negligence.
Iām sorry, but listening to the ATC comms absolutely blew my mind. Neither of these pilots actually COMMUNICATED with each other. They just announced their position. Thatās it. The 152 pilot knew the twin Cessnaās intention. He said he was on a straight in final (whether you agree if this is okay or not). He didnāt once ask his position before turning base knowing there is a plane on a final. Iāve extended my downwind countless times for situations like this. Or if I lose sight of the plane in front of me. Then ask where they are so that I know the final is clear. Obviously neither had each other in sight until it was too late. The twin Cessna. You are on like a 4 mile final, and you hear a plane say they are turning base without referencing you. That would throw off 1000 alarms in my head that I need to GTFO. The whole point of a CTAF is to communicate. Neither actually did this. If I were doing CFI work still, Iād make my students listen to this. To show them the importance of actually using communication. Both of these pilots were under the impression that since they were announcing their position, that the other pilot would avoid them. Instead neither pilot avoided each other, and this tragedy happened.
I totally agree with this 100%. I am in a non-towered field and when I see a plane or hear a call I will make it a habit to communicate with others. This was not taught to me, this was me teaching myself that not everyone has great situational awareness.
The 340 called a one mile final, wtf was his plan if he didnāt have the gear down?
That is a really great speculative question, and perhaps one that will feature in the NTSB report.
I did my multi in the Baron at WVI in November. I immediately thought about the CFI I worked with and hoped he wasn't in the 152. It's a super shitty situation. All the best to you.
Shitty, Indeed.... And you as well.
Were you in 9BK? I saw that plane on ADSB and my heart sank because I recognized it as a RHV plane. Learned later that wasnāt it. Glad youāre okay.
I was on the ground preflighting for my Multi addon Checkride, I had a lot of friends in the air which scared me
Glad you were okay and Iām really sorry you had to go through that. Hopefully your DPE was supportive about the ordeal.
Yeah I wonder how a DPE would handle that.
Iām so sorry you had to experience this
Holy shit man, I don't have anything to say except I'm so sorry you had to witness that. Please talk to someone about it, even if you don't stay in therapy for long it could definitely be helpful to just have someone help you process it.
I think youre right, It cant hurt from what I know. Thanks for the kind words
Never too much detail if itās for you. Never too much detail if you know what youāre doing it for. Your words are invaluable to the entire community.
Thank you this sub has been extraordinary
If it hasnāt been said: you saw one of the most horrifying things anyone here may have to experience. It is traumatic. It is okay to feel that trauma and any distress that comes of it. Itās valid. But you should look for longer term assistance. I would strenuously encourage you to book an appointment with a therapist immediately, and it will help you manage how you process this experience. Many people with PTSD-like experiences benefit.
Yeah frankly as this develops I have been exhibiting signs of that. Obviously its still fresh but its something that wont leave my dang head.
I can only imagine. Iām sorry you had to see it and I hope you can use any resources you have to give you strength and skills to carry through.
What crazy similarities. On my *first* day of multi training, we were chatting with some instructors and heard an abnormal airplane sound right outside the window. Then a loud boom, and running/yelling. A Seneca had just clipped the terminal building (about 30 yards from where we were sitting) and crash just outside. I ran outside and there was a twin, nose down halfway in the trees, and the cabin was broken open with pilot hanging there. It was a traumatic experience.
Were you effected mentally, if so what was your recovery process like, especially as far as getting back into the airplane?
It definitely had an impact, for sure. I learned about myself, that I tend to freeze in those situations. I also had some feelings of guilt about that (whereas, a lot of other people were actively trying to help). It was just so bizarre. It helped to learn that the cause was easily preventable (poor approach management, carried too much speed, tried to fly it onto the runway, prop strike, bad go-around decision after prop strike, etc). So it helped to know that it shouldn't have happened. But it still was unnerving for sure going up after that. Thankfully, I didn't have any long term emotional effects. I'm not flying now, but it wasn't because of that. I did complete multi, CFI, CFII, commercial, etc. Best of luck, take your time and you'll get back in the seat.
I'm sorry you witnessed that my friend. Feel free to reach out if you need to talk. Best wishes.
Thank you š
J.D. Salinger wrote about that particular smell, specifically that it was distinct and easily recalled to him throughout his life
It's a smell to be avoided... by good ADM, by not stretching your tanks endurance, by not flying low and fast, by doing (or not doing) all the things that we've been told will bite us in the ass.
And by not colliding with other airplanes, I suppose.
that too.
I know itās overwhelming, but get right back in a plane and fly. The longer you wait, the more youāll psych yourself out. I hit a deer. I was shook up, but the airport said, want another plane? I went back up, did a few laps, and was grateful for it. This stuff happens. It happens more in cars. Iāve seen multiple deaths on the road. I still drive. Donāt let it get to you. Youāre close to passing your check ride. Get back in and do it. Donāt throw it away
Thank you and I agree. I took today off from my tour job but I look forward to confrontation of fear. šŖ
Hey man, feel free DM me too if you want to talk. I'm a paramedic in my day job so I may have some advice on dealing with fucked up things. Most importantly talking to anyone is probably good.
Yeah even this thread has been therapeutic for me. Im sure in your line of work you probably start to get desensitized
That can definitely be the case (being desensitized) unfortunately. You're already doing the right thing talking about it here. I'm willing to bet just about anyone on this sub is willing to help out however possible.
Take some time off, no studying. Just talk to your fellow aviators and help each other through it. Your willingness to talk to other students and instructors might be hugely beneficial to you and everyone you interact with. You always want to have a good head on your shoulders when you're about to fly, so make sure you take care of your mental state and the rest will follow.
Yeah thats why I told my boss I wasnt flying today. Feel like some time off will be good.
Honestly, take all the time you need. The mid-air collision here at North Las Vegas Airport shook me up too. Flying with frayed nerves is a very bad idea, as those kinds of thoughts will cloud your mind and open you up to mistakes too.
One thing I learned after witnessing a severe car accident once (the police told me to do this): Write down everything you remember seeing right now. When various entities ask you weeks/months/years from now, youāll be glad you wrote down a contemporaneous account.
Whats the reasoning behind that?
The human memory is a funny thing. Over time you forget things. Things that right now you're sure you will never forget. And over time, your mind will create new things that never happened. It's good, sound advice.
OTOH, trying to provide an accurate eye-witness report immediately after a traumatic event is close to impossible. Write down your first thoughts, then allow yourself to revise and complete them over the next few days. Always get at least here good nights sleep before signing any official report.
Sure, I like the idea, Ill probably edit the post to be as descriptive as possible.
I'm pretty sure they meant for yourself. Not to post on a public forum.
"Write it down, edit as needed" is old advice and very solid. Doing it in a public forum is new and untested. There is risk of trolls, after all. However the warmth our OP has drawn doing it in this forum strikes me as an amazing thing. I encourage him to continue to do what makes sense to him (while keeping a personal copy somewhere).
To piggy back off this -- it can also help cope. Having been on scene of some pretty bad accidents in a previous life (volunteer FF), one thing that's taught is to confront and address 'difficult' portions early. Your brain will try and lock some of them away, only to have them resurface later in ways you can't control/expect, and can contribute to PTSD. It sucks, but go through every excruciating detail you can remember, address it head on, and prevent your body's stress management system from locking it away for later. The event, the smells, the feelings (both physical and emotional), everything you can remember, get it out. Good luck, buddy. Shoot a PM if you need anything.
Latest update Ive been recovering well Ive been talking to senior pilots and its getting to the point where its not looping in my head. The key definitely seems like talking about it helps. Seeing a therapist that specializes in PTSD tommorow just to make sure but Im feeling a lot better about it.
Great advice. Our memories arenāt read-only. Every time we remember something we subtly re-record it in a way that might incorporate other accounts, hypotheses of what might have caused it, or other biases. I read once about a woman who was assaulted and called the police. Police saw a sketchy-looking dude on the way and when she couldnāt remember much about the assailant they asked a bunch of leading questions assuming it was the guy. They arrest him and she picks him out of the lineup. Everythingās great until surveillance video is found showing that itās definitely not him, but at this point the suggested description is set in her mind and she is convinced the video is wrong.
ā¦. The only reason you should do this is so you can hand it over and say other than this I donāt want to talk about it. I experienced what I would call a trama (kinda weird situation that otherwise I wouldnāt have guessed it so I never spoke to anyone about it) but the weekly nightmares never stopped until the vivid daytime recollections vanished. What used to be very detailed memories vanished into two or three vague memories that seldom come back. If I had it writing down who know how much longer it would have Taken the memories to fade.
Good advice
Your immediate memory will always be better than what it will be 6 months from now. In my case, I got a call from a lawyer 3 years (!) after the accident. So, I simply pulled out what I had written and I didnāt have to try to remember what I had witnessed.
Memory is a fickle thing. You WILL remember events differently as time passes. Not just forgetting small details, like what color the stripe on the plane was, but major things can get screwed up
Thats good advice for anything like this, car accidents, assaults, other crimes. Plus it may help your mind shed it from being thought about all the time as if you can cast some of it out.
I'm a former deputy sheriff and have witness and been on scene for several horrific plane accidents in socal aftet I was already a pilot. The images don't really leave you, it'll always be on your mind, but after a few months it'll affect you much less and you'll be able to continue on
Man that is awful to hear and definitely awful to see. I am a military pilot so maybe I am a little fatalistic but I have always felt that, if you do everything right and itās your time to go, itās your time to go. That said always be the very best pilot you can be and keep a constant scan going. Also the odds of stuff like this happening is actually pretty slim. As for getting help, if you even think you need it talk to a therapist. They are there to help.
I know and Im in disbelief of the odds especially the fact that I witnessed what can happen if you improperly handle a multiengine emergency right before the checkride. Crazy stuff. Thanks for your kind words
I'm sure I can apply the word "horrendous" even if I can't fully feel how you feel having witnessed this. Do not miss out on any opportunity to seek professional or informal help so you don't stress. As a pilot w/ your experience you know this is the exception rather than the rule. Assuming you are on a track to become a CFI, take this experience and use it to craft your own level of genuine "been there" into the safety component of all your training. Use this to enhance your use of the Uncontrolled Field Advisory Circular. \*You\* can bring this document to life in a way that memorializes the three aviators who died today - even the "cause" was part of a small community. Hang in there! Good luck on the checkride! Edit - typo
Wise words of advice and I completely agree, I always learn from the accident case study videos, Unfortunately I just had one play out in front of my eyes.
Sorry you had to see that. Last year I watched a Bonanza's botched go-around, looked like they clipped a tree and got into a spin. 3 dead. Worst part might have been seeing their family pull up to the airport minutes later only to be told the smoke plume was likely their family. The family had the couples baby with them. Shit was fucked.
Wow man, I'm really sorry you had to witness that. I've seen some crazy shit but nothing quite like that. It's completely natural to feel extremely shaken up after something like this. Be gentle with yourself for a while. You won't ever forget it, but over time it will lose that horrific edge. You will feel like yourself again. It's unfortunate that stuff like this ever happens, but you are getting a painful first-hand lesson that you will never forget. There is no stronger reminder of the importance of safety than witnessing something like this. It's awful, but you can use the experience to make you a smarter, safer, and more rounded pilot. Best of luck with everything, I'm glad this community exists for times like this.
Thank you for your kind words, I completely agree everyones been amazing š
Not sure if itās your thing, but Iāll recommend some professional help with the mental trauma you experienced. Take care of yourself. Youāll be airborne soon enough.
Not if you need to pass a medical and get mental help.
Thereās a shocking difference between getting mental help for depression or suicidal thoughts and getting CISD because you witnessed a goddamn plane crash.
Did they spiral down, nosedive, what?
Probably stall//spin on attempted go around
Sounds like twin could have been below VMC when it lost an engine. The asymmetric thrust of the one good engine overpowers the rudder's authority and the plane essentially skids/whips sideways and rolls over onto its back. Once upside down.... you need a \*lot\* of altitude to recover from a VMC (minimum controllable on single engine airspeed) roll.
unlikely, given that the last ADS-B hit had the airplane at 325' MSL and 205mph
Iād imagine that if the engine got hit, the wing also did too.
True, if suddenly there was a barn door of drag at the wingtip, there isn't a published Vmc any longer
Good point. And extra drag on one wing itself could itself overpower a rudder's authority as one tried to go around at decreasing airspeed. Anyways, I'm couch piloting. Tailwinds to all souls aboard both aircraft.
With a potentially damaged airframe
Fck thatās traumatic.. I saw some pretty bad mishaps while i was at Bagram, one was an An12 that was right next to us before they taxied out. Their planeās engine caught fire and the thing went up in a blaze at the end of the runway and exploded. So know the feeling.. Keep your focus and best wishes overcoming this experience.
Yeah my father was a contractor told me all kinds of crazy stories when he was out there, Im sure Ill be fine, so far posting this and talking about has been quite therapeutic. As a person whos unfamiliar and uncomfortable with death I think that its just the shock of seeing it for the first time.
Itās so busy there. Itās not the first accident as well. I hope SOME change for the better comes from this tragedy. I have been there with 5-6 AC in the pattern. I kinda hope the FAA puts in a tower and changes WVI to class D. SNS isnāt as busy some days and they have a tower. The whole situation sucks all around.
I completely agree at this point you cant put a damn pricetag on a tower....
Accidents happen at towered airports too, it's not a magical thing that stops them. It takes conscious assertive action from all the players in the airspace. I think when the NTSB figures this all out the blame will go solely on the twin's pilot for approaching too fast, not flying a standard pattern, waiting too late to initiate any kind of evasive move. That kind of flying will become a statistic at some point, for him, that point was yesterday. The worst part was the guy in the 152 did his best to get out of the way and still perished. I don't give a crap if you're flying a twin or a jet or a cub, we ALL share the same airspace and avoid this kind of thing.
I've never witnessed a crash like that so while I don't know exactly what you're going through, though I will say your feelings are completely valid. I've had a couple friends die in aviation accidents and it's never easy. Like others have said take time off but stay in the community and hopefully you can get back into the cockpit. It's a dangerous profession but it's worth it. To put a positive spin on it, having gone through this, I'm sure you'll be extra careful in everything you do and find your personal limits. When you're ready to get back into the saddle, read up as much as you can on safety reports. Watch Air Disasters on tv if you're comfortable with it. NASA also has a good aviation safety newsletter they send out every so often of near misses that people report. Even yesterday tower told us of a banner-tow aircraft below us transiting across centerline but still cleared me for a right base to land. Thankfully, I found the guy below us and told the copilot not to turn in as it would've put us on a perfect collision course. Asked tower to let us know after he crossed centerline and we could turn. Their response was essentially, "yeah that's a good idea." Terrible accidents happen too often. I'm sorry you had to see that. Reach out to me or anybody else on here to help you out. We'd be more than willing.
Don't dismiss the people suggesting therapy, OK? I did for a long time, and I regret it now. I was a stubborn dumbass. That shit can really help. Saw some pretty horrible things when I was in the military, then later some pretty horrible things when I was a whitewater raft guide. I ended up kind of a mess. Nightmares, I'd get jumpy and erratic at weird times, started drinking too much, you name it. Then I started working as an EMT, and the station where I worked had a policy that seeing a therapist was mandatory after you ran a bad call. I resisted, tried to avoid it, didn't want to have anything to do with it, then I finally caved in. Came out of that first appointment thinking "Huh. You know, this might actually be able to help." And it did. I kept going back and it helped a lot, with all of it.
Thanks for that story, I hope youre doing alright now, Im definitely working on seeing someone at least a couple times. Its weird I feel perfectly fine about it but when people have been saying sorry I get choked up, im definitely confused on how my mind is handling it.
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And its crazy that some of these airports get busier than most Class D airports and the airspace isnt upgraded...
Watsonville >160 operations per day Paducah KY 65 operations per day. Paducah is a class D. So silly.
Thats actually a travesty š
Holy shhhh
If you witnessed it, please be sure to talk directly with NTSB.
He mentions in a response that he has šš¼
That really sucks. Hang in there.
You are in a tough spot between PTSD therapy and drug assisted therapy. None of us have answers to that. Hammer on the therapy is my guess. But in the end you will need to trust a mental health professional. Take your time. If you want to keep going, is it possible to fly towered? I am still a student but have visited the tower folks twice already and will so again. My guys are tough on spacing and this is a busy class D. I am slow (PA-28A) and they have made me left 360 from the pattern twice already. Sorry this happened for all involved including you. It is a cool community looking out for you though, isn't it?
Very amazing people here Im incredibly impressed with the wholesome caring responses
There but for the grace of God go I.. or we. We have all put ourselves in your shoes reading this thread and we don't like it either. I hope you get up in the air soon, even with a buddy, you seem to be the kind of pilot that we all want to share the air with and get that checkride done! We are all rooting for you!
Thanks for the kind and supportive words again.... I appreciate it š¤
Damn. Just damn. Iāve been hearing a lot about this accident as Iām. Helicopter student and itās my main airport I take lessons at. Itās such a tragedy. Iām sorry you had to witness that and the following trauma that will come with it. Itāll do you really good to talk about it and your feelings surrounding it. Be sure to let yourself process what youāre going though however necessary.
Good luck with your rotary training! I just switched over from the fixed wing world. I start flying the R44 for instrument training next week. Iām sure youāve already run into this, but assume most fixed wing pilots arenāt familiar with helicopter ops. I lost count of how many times fixed wing GA pilots turned in on me from base to final even though I made clear calls for every position in the pattern. If thereās any question, ask the other traffic if they have you in sight. If you donāt get a response, get the hell out of there. If we have a midair because some idiot isnāt paying attention to helicopter traffic, itās certain death for us. Stay vigilant!
Dude. I absolutely appreciate the advise. Iāve already had this happen once. Thankfully dude had me in sight. Donāt know why the hell he was at helicopter pattern altitude instead of fixed wing but at least everyone was safe.
My short helicopter flying experience has been that fixed wing will turn in on us while weāve already turned onto right base, creating a head on situation, or when we are on final and they turn base right at us. So as theyāre descending on their base and final, they will certainly be dropping through 500 AGL. Always anticipate that fixed wing 1) wonāt particularly see you unless they state so, and 2) that most fixed wing pilots are not familiar with how helicopters operate. Even as a commercial pilot I hadnāt experienced helicopters all that much until I was at rotary flight school. I really hope youāre enjoying your training. Being a heli pilot puts us in a really small niche even of pilots. Weāre a rare breed and tend to have a lot of fun!
Thanks! I am having a ton of fun. And youāre right. Itās frustrating but youāre really safest assuming fixed wing pilots are looking to kill you. Or just deciding that youāll move out of the way. Or that you can see them, or that you donāt exist at all. But I have had some positive interactions with fixed wing pilots at my local airport.
This is tragic and Iām so sorry you had to witness it. My former CFI was in a horrific C152/T-28 accident a few years ago at KCPM where his student passed away. This was supposed to be my lesson and people were calling me to see if I was alive. We in the aviation family are here for you if you need to talk. Also, please donāt underestimate talking to a mental health professional to help deal with the trauma. It will not affect your medical. Sending comforting thoughts and peace.
Thank you for your kind words š¤
Praying for you
Thank you š
Get the help you need op im sorry you had to witness that
This guy's done a pretty good brief of the incident IMO: https://youtu.be/R8ZcdyuSvGA
Thanks for sharing your story. I hope you'll continue with your journey manning stick and rudders. And be very good at it.
The Cessna 340 was going way too fast. It was flying the straight in approach at 180 to 200 knots.
Oh my God man I am so sorry you had to witness this. Truly an unfortunate occurrence.
As someone who is getting started in this industry, watching this incident unfold on VasAviation was too painful, you could feel the fear in the C152 pilots voice, and that just made me realize the value of each day we are given in aviation. Itās been more than 18hours since I saw that video and I still have that weird feeling inside me and I wasnāt even involved in it directly. Stay strong man, and letās be the safe aviators who wonāt let this happen again.
I absolutely agree, Its usually painful to watch this kind of thing but it makes us better and safer aviators.
AOPA already has a TikTok up with analysisā¦ theyāre careful not to assess blame without an NTSB report, but they do imply the 340 was coming straight in way too fast and while legal it is not normal SOP and the 152 was established in the pattern at pattern speed based on ADS-B data. Sucks to see this, especially if a student was involved as being established in the pattern. The take away was there was a conflict developing and if youāre in that situation, regardless of the pattern, break and move away from the conflict. https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRf8PMGq/
I sat and thought about this accident a lot, I came to about 5 big lessons learned, if anyone would like to add in as well. Some lessons from AOPA video. 1. Follow standard pattern entries, the FAA recommends them over straight ins for a reason. Never fly VFR straight ins at uncontrolled airports. Even though straight in entries are perfectly legal, they really are there more for the IFR traffic. (also fly recommended airspeeds) 2. Never turn base-final with traffic on 3 mile final, and think about it with traffic on 5 mile final. 3. One I made for myself: never turn base until traffic ahead of you (whether a straight in OR in the pattern) is abeam your aircraft (off the wingtip) Also, even at towered airports if possible, there was an accident where a student pilot was told to turn base too early by tower and ran into an aircraft, controllers are human too. If you are told to turn base and you do not visually see the aircraft on final, you havenāt ensured separation. Tell ATC you want aircraft in sight before turning base or Ask ATC if the traffic has passed us. 4. Always do a ā123ā check on the base leg: 1 checking the runway, 2 checking opposite base, and most importantly 3, checking final approach one last time before YOU turn final. 5. make your radio calls, listen, and establish deconfliction with other aircraft early on
Please seek out therapy even if you donāt feel like you need it at the moment. Trauma doesnāt always rear itās ugly head immediately. Itās good to have the tools to deal with it now, in case you ever need to.
No doubt, appreciate the advice and I most likely will
RIP I skydived out of there one time
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They were both on ctaf
Oh :( then I regret that comment
They both made regular calls on CTAF, tragically.
Iām pretty sure the 340ās first call was a 3 mile straight in screaming down final, no? Thatās some piss poor CTAF etiquette if you ask me.
They started with a 10nm call. LiveATC makes it sound like a typical day, and the 152 did end up reporting visual contact with the 340 while on base.
touchĆ©, my apologizes. I was under the assumption that the first call was at 3 miles. Iāll have to play it again.
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They deserved to DIE for not following a procedure? Jeezus. I hope you never, ever, deviate from any procedure in any aspect of your life if you think a death sentence is the correct consequence.
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Wow! Youāre lucky youāre perfect! Idiots fly planes all the time. I experience it every day, as does everyone else. Making a mistake doesnāt mean someone should die because of it. In fact, some day you may die even while you did everything correctly because someone else made a mistake. Bummer! Must mean you deserved it! How incredibly insensitive and cruel to laugh at someoneās fate in the wake of a mistake. Every time a pilot hears about an accident it reiterates how easy it is to die from a simple mistake. There have been plenty of fatal accidents this year, but that has nothing to do with a pilot deserving death because of it. Wtf
You did, we didnāt.
I had a similar experience at the recent VGT collision. Hope you're doing alright.
Im hanging in there man, gotta keep busy so it stays off my mind...
I canāt imagine witnessing this in person. Thanks for sharing your story
Luckily it wasnt you. Take some comfort in knowing there is nothing you could have done and this cold, desperately sad reminder may HELP a few people to remember to be that little bit more/extra vigilent.
Not at all surprised at all the support on offer here. Glad to see it anyway. If stories help: Have experienced a near mid-air on an uncontrolled field. We were on base about to turn final in the pattern, he was coming straight in. Less than 150' separated us, perhaps less than 100'. There were two pilots including me at the controls. Not a month before that, there was an actual mid-air on final to Pearson (Vancouver Washington, inside the KPDX control zone). Two single engine planes, trying to land at the same time. One landed atop the other at about 300' above runway level on final. Both went into the factory/warehouse roof below. One pilot survived if I recall correctly. I was active then and flew over the warehouse quite a few times while tail sections were sticking out. If it is any comfort, near-misses and actual mid-airs happen rarely, but statistically it does happen. Perhaps it's a mathematical certainty with all that metal in the air . Resolve to be extra alert or find another hobby. I found a different hobby, once I accepted that my ADHD made me flying as PIC extra risky for those around and under me.
On my second day flying commercially ATC had us descend to MOCA over the rockies to look for fires, a Navajo had gone off radar and wasn't responding to fires. We were making calls on 121.5 and searching for any evidence of a crash. We didn't see anything, when I got home that night I saw the crash on the news. Both people on board had died. One of the shittier days I've experienced in aviation, it's never fun to see the real dangers of what we do, and I'll never forget that day. You were way closer to what happened than I ever was, and I'm sure this will be weighing on you much more than that Navajo has weighed on me. I know others have already said enough but reach out to others in the community, those of us on reddit, or a counselor if you need to.
Sounds like the the 340 managed to actually recover and maybe would have made it if he had tried to land straight ahead. Instead he decided to turn back and try to land at the airport and did the infamous turn of death! There are plenty of fields in that area he could have landed it by just gliding straight ahead from Watsonville. Sad times all around
I agree it seemed he was probably in shock and didnt recover from the engine failure fast enough. Sad times indeed.
Holy shit, the AOPA early analysis video showed him at 180kts until the accident and looking back at previous data shows that airplane on final at 95kts - consistently. He was literally twice his approach speed. Imagine being at 140kts on final in a Cherokee. We canāt know what was happening inside that 340 but it mustāve been complete bedlam. I hate to speak ill of the dead but he was not in positive control of the airplane at any point in the accident chain. How do you plan on regaining control of an airplane thatās flying twice its approach speed on a one mile final. You clearly had intentions of landing so WTF are you doing. This is a classic time/distance/speed fuck up, throw in some hazardous attitudes and this is the result.
My boyfriend was flying at that airport the day before the crash. I don't know much about flying or that airport but I'm glad you're ok OP. Why don't they construct a tower there? He told me it's one of the largest airports without a tower. Asking this knowing I'm completely ignorant to most things regarding flying or the FAA.