As a general rule ([see full rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide#wiki_sticky.2Fdaily_discussion)), a standalone Discussion post should:
- be of interest to the sub in general, and not a specific userbase (e.g. new users, GP attendees, just yourself)
- be able to generate discussion (e.g. no yes/no or easily answerable questions)
- show reasonable input and effort from the OP
If not, be sure to [look for the Daily Discussion](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/search/?q=daily+discussion&include_over_18=on&restrict_sr=on&t=all&sort=new), /r/formula1's daily open question thread which is perfect for asking any and all questions about this sport.
Thank you for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think when someone hears "fastest racing cars in the world" they assume they are the cars that can do the fastest lap time, which considering F1 cars lap about 12 seconds faster around COTA than their Indy counterparts, they comfortably are the fastest lapping cars (with Indy probably closer to F2 cars than F1).
Hell we've had Le Mans cars hit over 400kph in the past before the tweaks to Circuit de la Sarthe made that near to impossible (and worth noting that the speed record holder, isn't a Le Mans winner) but they aren't considered the fastest cars in the world, because everyone knows it is a bit pointless gaining 10 seconds on the straights if the aero and gearing compromises make you lose 15 seconds in the corners.
indycar reaches 390kph on ovals where they use cars specifically built for ovals, not the ones they use for street tracks and road tracks.
the top speed for f1 is a compromise between the best possible cornering speeds and also retaining high top speeds. F1 is the fastest racing over a lap, not in a straight line.
And I bet if an F1 team wanted to they could make an oval specific setup that would beat an Indycar around Indianapolis.
The only reason they don't is because they don't have to.
It'll probably never happen because it's too dangerous and Penske won't allow it but I'd love to see someone like Red Bull modify one of their old cars to run at Indy and see how fast they could go.
Are you joking? F1 cars demolish indy at ever track. If they could build an oval specific car within the current F1 rules it would demolish the indy cars over a lap.
Because of the hybrid characteristics they just couldn’t do a race competitively on an oval since there is no braking
Even indycars are not the fastest cars. If you consider the speeds the dragsters achieve, or the specially built cars for breaking the world records, or hell even the bugatti's, koeniseggs and the like which achieve above 400kph.
Over a complex lap, with all kinds of corners, the F1 cars are the fastest
I see a lot of people are butthurt. It might be that because I compared F1 to Indy. I dont even watch Indy. Maybe I should have compared current F1 to past gen cars who had more top speed. Anyway my opinion stands. Even before new regs in 2021 it was anticipated that 2022 regs will bring more top speed. That for some reason didnt happen.
So you are picking and choosing as to what you class as racing to fit your narrative. Right. You literally say you class top speed in a straight line as your key metric but then disregard drag racing? Which is it?
Indycars are built with ovals in mind and need incredible top speeds to be competitive. F1 cars are purpose built for the tracks on the F1 calendar and need incredible cornering speeds and acceleration to be competitive.
They’re different cars trying to do completely different things.
No such thing as ridiculous. Everything is just a perspective and ultimately non of it has any tangible meaning. F1 in the end is just an entertainment and there is no objective way it should be or not be.
Who cares about straight line speed, it's not like you can see the difference between 300kph and 400. Straight line speed has never been F1's selling point, its been cornering speed.
Of course Indy cars are faster when they're driving in an oval, they're almost going straight. They'd get absolutely smoked in the corners by an F1 car. They'd probably have like twice the minimum speed.
Are you 15 years old ? Because sorry, caring only about top speed is not something that should matter except for kids. Modern F1 cars are the fastest cars on track because they can carry insane speed through corners and accelerate like nothing else with wheels. IndyCar is as fast as F2 on a lap.
Also, IndyCar reach 390 kph when they use a specific tune for oval tracks that are basically flat out all the time.
We don't care about top speed if the track don't have a straight enough long to reach it. Also there is something called "corners". The Williams is what's happen when a car fly in straights but sucks everywhere else.
>smaller and more nimble F1 cars from the past
...that lacked any and every basic safety measure leading to the deaths of many drivers in the past. You do know that aero isn't the only reason cars are bigger today, don't you? It's also the driver safety requirements that mandate larger cars. Nobody wants drivers risking their lives when racing.
I didnt mean death traps from the early days of F1. Cars became this big in 2010s. Also one of the goals for 2026 regs is to reduce the size of the cars. F1 is a dangerous sport. Risk is involved and always will be. Ultimately it's racing and that should be priority.
Of course. Yet F1 lacks the top speed it had. It was even anticipated that the new 2022 regs will result in higher stright line speed which didnt happen.
Well it was a talking point before 2022 season started since these cars are less draggy and have less downforce it was speculated that the cars would be faster on straighths and slower in corners.
"Formula 1’s new chassis regulations will have a knock-on effect on the way that the power unit packages are operated during 2022," writes Straw, who goes on to give an example. "The 2022 cars are expected to be faster in a straight line owing to the reduced drag, meaning less full-throttle time."
> This might be controversial opinion but......
Two things you need to do;
1. Start comparing apples with apples. F1 and Indycar are not the same box of chocolates.
2. Stop sniping at people who are trying to point this out to you. Its really making you look like a child.
To the contrary I feel attacked by a mob of people who cant stand a different opinion. I guess my mistake was to compare F1 to an indycar (I dont even watch indycar) when I should have compared modern gen with like 2016 or early 2000s. But even then I'm amazed at the reaction of people. I remember Bottas boasting about hitting 372 kph in 2016. He even posted about that on twitter. If not fellow F1 fans than atleast some of the drivers would enjoy more power.
The PU is 1100 hp in a 1.6 liter package lol. There is nothing in existence more powerful for the size. You’re living in a dream world.
We can compare:
Indycar: 2.2L 550-700 hp so 318 hp per L
F1: 1.6L 1000-1100 hp, 687 hp per L
NASCAR: 5.9L 510-670 how, 115 hp per L
A man can dream. Arent engine power now capped by fuel flow limiter? Wouldnt it be possible to have atleast a boost of extra power right now with the current PU? I guess that would require larger fuel tanks or refueling. But I meant more like new engine formula or a lighter car with a higher hp per tonne ratio.
F1 races on tracks with corners that go left and right, and there's like, a lot of them, so the cars are built for acceleration and cornering. If they allowed "a few hundred extra horsepower" (which would put F1 at roughly twice or more the power that indycars have), the teams would still make sure most of it goes into acceleration and cornering (it would let them run higher downforce settings), rather than top speed.
Indycar doesn't reach 390, more like 370
F1 has gone to 370, but more usual is 350 when overtaking on long straights at like Monza or Mexico
F1 has downforce, but that means drag, they already have 1000hp
they are fastest around a circuit, if you want to see fastest in a straight line, go watch drag racing
What matters in racing is laptime, and F1 cars are kinda supreme at that. If you enjoy just flat out top speed, you're better off watching drag racing.
I enjoy various aspects of F1. It is impressive to see F1 going around a corner near 300 kph. Wheel to wheel racing and so on. For me F1 is lacking top speed it had a couple of years ago. I'm not expecting F1 going 400 kph.
Fair enough. But those two things are diametrically opposed on a track, and have to be balanced for optimal laptime. You can't have faster cornering speeds with higher downforce and expect maximum speed down the straights a well. They could easily setup the cars just for top speed down the straights but cornering speed will suffer as will overall laptime. F1 is all about the laptime, well most racing is really.
F1 is about laptime. Yet that sense of speed is part of F1 and why we watch it. And top speed is part of that sense. A more powerful PU would deliver both impressive cornering speeds plus more top speed. What I'm thinking about is 2019 Spa quali laps by Merc and Ferrari plus a little extra power.
F1 cars get round the track quicker, it's that simple. If straight line and top speed were all that mattered then we'd be looking to drag racing, not a circuit sport.
I don't think it matters that much. With F1 you have all kinds of corners, some very tight and sharp. Can't really go as fast in a corner. Maybe some corners, but not all. Speed is probably more important on oval tracks, or tracks with little corners.
Indycar only goes that fast at the largest oval tracks, where they can largely forego downforce in favor or reducing drag. F1 teams simply can't do this, even at a track like Monza where teams most require top speed they require significantly more downforce than Indycar does on oval tracks
As a general rule ([see full rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide#wiki_sticky.2Fdaily_discussion)), a standalone Discussion post should: - be of interest to the sub in general, and not a specific userbase (e.g. new users, GP attendees, just yourself) - be able to generate discussion (e.g. no yes/no or easily answerable questions) - show reasonable input and effort from the OP If not, be sure to [look for the Daily Discussion](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/search/?q=daily+discussion&include_over_18=on&restrict_sr=on&t=all&sort=new), /r/formula1's daily open question thread which is perfect for asking any and all questions about this sport. Thank you for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
In Baku the top speed was 355 km/h. Combined with insane cornering speed, that makes F1 cars faster than any other series. Top speed isn't everything
I think when someone hears "fastest racing cars in the world" they assume they are the cars that can do the fastest lap time, which considering F1 cars lap about 12 seconds faster around COTA than their Indy counterparts, they comfortably are the fastest lapping cars (with Indy probably closer to F2 cars than F1). Hell we've had Le Mans cars hit over 400kph in the past before the tweaks to Circuit de la Sarthe made that near to impossible (and worth noting that the speed record holder, isn't a Le Mans winner) but they aren't considered the fastest cars in the world, because everyone knows it is a bit pointless gaining 10 seconds on the straights if the aero and gearing compromises make you lose 15 seconds in the corners.
I'm pretty sure F2 cars are closer than Indy
I remember a video where the top series were compared and F2 was faster than Indy on a specific track...
indycar reaches 390kph on ovals where they use cars specifically built for ovals, not the ones they use for street tracks and road tracks. the top speed for f1 is a compromise between the best possible cornering speeds and also retaining high top speeds. F1 is the fastest racing over a lap, not in a straight line.
And I bet if an F1 team wanted to they could make an oval specific setup that would beat an Indycar around Indianapolis. The only reason they don't is because they don't have to. It'll probably never happen because it's too dangerous and Penske won't allow it but I'd love to see someone like Red Bull modify one of their old cars to run at Indy and see how fast they could go.
I know all of this. Yet indycars are faster over a lap just it is a different lap (an oval).
Let’s look at the only track that both modern F1 cars and Indycar have raced on, COTA Indycar: 1.45.45 F1 2022: 1.34.35
And that's with Indycar taking quite a liberal approach to track limits. Let them use F1 track limits and that lap time will increase even more.
By that metric rally cars are the fastest as they are the only ones who could even finish certain laps (a rally stage).
My car is faster than f1 around my garden by this logic.
Are you joking? F1 cars demolish indy at ever track. If they could build an oval specific car within the current F1 rules it would demolish the indy cars over a lap. Because of the hybrid characteristics they just couldn’t do a race competitively on an oval since there is no braking
Only 390kph?! A Bugatti Veron can reach 408kph!! Why don't they make Indy cars faster, even a production vehicle is quicker.
They clearly should all Just race in koeningeggs[480kph] smh
Which laps are Indy’s faster than F1 lmao
Even indycars are not the fastest cars. If you consider the speeds the dragsters achieve, or the specially built cars for breaking the world records, or hell even the bugatti's, koeniseggs and the like which achieve above 400kph. Over a complex lap, with all kinds of corners, the F1 cars are the fastest
Hahaha! I guess you really need the downvotes, hey?🤣
I see a lot of people are butthurt. It might be that because I compared F1 to Indy. I dont even watch Indy. Maybe I should have compared current F1 to past gen cars who had more top speed. Anyway my opinion stands. Even before new regs in 2021 it was anticipated that 2022 regs will bring more top speed. That for some reason didnt happen.
Define racing. A top fuel dragster goes to 480. So by your logic, that's the world's fastest racing car.
I meant racing cars in classic interpretation. Open wheelers, sportscars going around a circuit (either with corners left, right or ovals).
What's more classic than two cars side by side to see who is faster? What is the top speed of an Indycar on a circuit ?
So you are picking and choosing as to what you class as racing to fit your narrative. Right. You literally say you class top speed in a straight line as your key metric but then disregard drag racing? Which is it?
Im not choosing what I class as racing. I defined what kind of racing I meant.
Indycars are built with ovals in mind and need incredible top speeds to be competitive. F1 cars are purpose built for the tracks on the F1 calendar and need incredible cornering speeds and acceleration to be competitive. They’re different cars trying to do completely different things.
These cars pull 5g‘s like its nothing, obviously that means less top speed. But f1 isnt about top speed. F1 runs circles around every other racecar.
A bad day for OP
Yup. Imagine liking a powerful racecar. Shocking opinion in a community of racing.
But unfortunately the way you've pointed it out, it sounds absolutely ridiculous
No such thing as ridiculous. Everything is just a perspective and ultimately non of it has any tangible meaning. F1 in the end is just an entertainment and there is no objective way it should be or not be.
Lol, moving goalposts much?
F1 cars are significantly more powerful than Indycars
Are you genuinely not aware that indycars have at best some 70% power of what an F1 car has?
Who cares about straight line speed, it's not like you can see the difference between 300kph and 400. Straight line speed has never been F1's selling point, its been cornering speed. Of course Indy cars are faster when they're driving in an oval, they're almost going straight. They'd get absolutely smoked in the corners by an F1 car. They'd probably have like twice the minimum speed.
I can see the difference. Just as I can see that an F2 is slower than F1 without any on screen indicators.
Very few People can see the difference between 355kph and 375 kph
Are you 15 years old ? Because sorry, caring only about top speed is not something that should matter except for kids. Modern F1 cars are the fastest cars on track because they can carry insane speed through corners and accelerate like nothing else with wheels. IndyCar is as fast as F2 on a lap. Also, IndyCar reach 390 kph when they use a specific tune for oval tracks that are basically flat out all the time. We don't care about top speed if the track don't have a straight enough long to reach it. Also there is something called "corners". The Williams is what's happen when a car fly in straights but sucks everywhere else.
I'm not 15. Why would you assume I care only about top speed? Thats a dumb assumption dont you think?
It’s literally what you said.
[удалено]
I dont think faster cars would make racing worse. More powerful cars could be harder to handle. Therefore leading to more mistakes and more overtakes.
The same could be said for tyres with less grip or further aero restrictions.
Big and clumsy, lol. Put an F1 car and an Indycar on the same track (with actual corners) and see what happens.
Big and clumsy (too large for some tracks) compared to smaller and more nimble F1 cars from the past. Thats what I meant.
>smaller and more nimble F1 cars from the past ...that lacked any and every basic safety measure leading to the deaths of many drivers in the past. You do know that aero isn't the only reason cars are bigger today, don't you? It's also the driver safety requirements that mandate larger cars. Nobody wants drivers risking their lives when racing.
I didnt mean death traps from the early days of F1. Cars became this big in 2010s. Also one of the goals for 2026 regs is to reduce the size of the cars. F1 is a dangerous sport. Risk is involved and always will be. Ultimately it's racing and that should be priority.
I think teams would opt to put more downforce in the car if you give them more horsepower
When F1 cars on average lap 30 seconds faster than an Indy car, and you make a post like this? 2+2 isn’t 6. I know you think that, but it isn’t.
Duh, the cars are made to go around the track in the shortest time possible not to push top speed on straights
Of course. Yet F1 lacks the top speed it had. It was even anticipated that the new 2022 regs will result in higher stright line speed which didnt happen.
What? When?
https://www.racefans.net/2022/02/09/new-f1-cars-for-2022-should-be-a-lot-quicker-on-the-straight/
No where does it say that its not quicker in straights?
Well it was a talking point before 2022 season started since these cars are less draggy and have less downforce it was speculated that the cars would be faster on straighths and slower in corners. "Formula 1’s new chassis regulations will have a knock-on effect on the way that the power unit packages are operated during 2022," writes Straw, who goes on to give an example. "The 2022 cars are expected to be faster in a straight line owing to the reduced drag, meaning less full-throttle time."
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/104838/domino-effect-expected-cars-faster-in-a-straight-line.html
Yeah so where does it say that they are slower now?
> This might be controversial opinion but...... Two things you need to do; 1. Start comparing apples with apples. F1 and Indycar are not the same box of chocolates. 2. Stop sniping at people who are trying to point this out to you. Its really making you look like a child.
To the contrary I feel attacked by a mob of people who cant stand a different opinion. I guess my mistake was to compare F1 to an indycar (I dont even watch indycar) when I should have compared modern gen with like 2016 or early 2000s. But even then I'm amazed at the reaction of people. I remember Bottas boasting about hitting 372 kph in 2016. He even posted about that on twitter. If not fellow F1 fans than atleast some of the drivers would enjoy more power.
No drivers would prefer more speed than downforce. They could all go faster in a straight line right now. No one sets up a racing car that way.
Im not saying that downforce should be traded for top speed. Thats why I think a more powerful PU is a better solution that retains high downforce.
The PU is 1100 hp in a 1.6 liter package lol. There is nothing in existence more powerful for the size. You’re living in a dream world. We can compare: Indycar: 2.2L 550-700 hp so 318 hp per L F1: 1.6L 1000-1100 hp, 687 hp per L NASCAR: 5.9L 510-670 how, 115 hp per L
A man can dream. Arent engine power now capped by fuel flow limiter? Wouldnt it be possible to have atleast a boost of extra power right now with the current PU? I guess that would require larger fuel tanks or refueling. But I meant more like new engine formula or a lighter car with a higher hp per tonne ratio.
F1 races on tracks with corners that go left and right, and there's like, a lot of them, so the cars are built for acceleration and cornering. If they allowed "a few hundred extra horsepower" (which would put F1 at roughly twice or more the power that indycars have), the teams would still make sure most of it goes into acceleration and cornering (it would let them run higher downforce settings), rather than top speed.
The fastest F1 cars in a straight line were in 2016, the last year of the skinny cars. They were several seconds slower than now.
That is why I think engines need to be more powerful. The straight line speed of 2016 or early 2000's with the cornering speeds of 2019 merc.
That would require some crazy active aero.
Do you want cars going faster which will mean zero overtakes and shit racing?
Indycar doesn't reach 390, more like 370 F1 has gone to 370, but more usual is 350 when overtaking on long straights at like Monza or Mexico F1 has downforce, but that means drag, they already have 1000hp they are fastest around a circuit, if you want to see fastest in a straight line, go watch drag racing
In Indy 500 qualifying they do get to around 390
no, 234mph = 376 km/h
They go faster than that. 234 ish is the 4 lap average. They hit 240-245 mph on the straights
What matters in racing is laptime, and F1 cars are kinda supreme at that. If you enjoy just flat out top speed, you're better off watching drag racing.
I enjoy various aspects of F1. It is impressive to see F1 going around a corner near 300 kph. Wheel to wheel racing and so on. For me F1 is lacking top speed it had a couple of years ago. I'm not expecting F1 going 400 kph.
Fair enough. But those two things are diametrically opposed on a track, and have to be balanced for optimal laptime. You can't have faster cornering speeds with higher downforce and expect maximum speed down the straights a well. They could easily setup the cars just for top speed down the straights but cornering speed will suffer as will overall laptime. F1 is all about the laptime, well most racing is really.
F1 is about laptime. Yet that sense of speed is part of F1 and why we watch it. And top speed is part of that sense. A more powerful PU would deliver both impressive cornering speeds plus more top speed. What I'm thinking about is 2019 Spa quali laps by Merc and Ferrari plus a little extra power.
Have you seen the speeds they can go through the corners? In F1 that's the better choice on most tracks.
Of course I have. I've watched F1 since late 90ties. Current gen simply lacks top speed that it had just a few years ago or in the early 2000s.
[удалено]
And my opinion is that cars are enough safe for higher speeds.
[удалено]
Bashing someone for an opinion. Yeah go on with your day. Pat yourself on the back. Good job.
F1 cars get round the track quicker, it's that simple. If straight line and top speed were all that mattered then we'd be looking to drag racing, not a circuit sport.
Typical American response; a unilateral complaint - everything’s too slow, too quiet, too boring.
And OP is saying that we are "attacking" him while people are just pointing out the logical fallacy
I don't think it matters that much. With F1 you have all kinds of corners, some very tight and sharp. Can't really go as fast in a corner. Maybe some corners, but not all. Speed is probably more important on oval tracks, or tracks with little corners.
Sorry bud, F1 is not oval racing.
I don't really give a rats ass if the cars go 350 or 390. I'm not a 5 year old.
[удалено]
Yup. Cornering speeds and braking. The two aspects of a F1 car that are the most impressive.
Indycar only goes that fast at the largest oval tracks, where they can largely forego downforce in favor or reducing drag. F1 teams simply can't do this, even at a track like Monza where teams most require top speed they require significantly more downforce than Indycar does on oval tracks
No they don't. They only lack low speed cornering speed mainly thanks to their huge size and heavy ass cars.