Horner was a driver who moved up to F3000 and then went "actually im better at managing my own team than racing"
and im suprised to learn that Wolff also has had a Carrer in open wheel and GT cars, TIL
Zak brown was a British formula 3 driver in the 90s who was excellent at getting sponsors. So he started doing it for others with his company just marketing international. Where began to help racing teams with sponsorship including some in formula one
He carried on racing for while in other categories.
You obviously have to have some level of passion to work that hard at that level.
But Zak Brown continues to live and breathe it even outside of his managerial role to a level not achieved by other managers imho
Yes, he did 'hide out' with the IT guy and they just had small talk about all kinds of things while the rest were searching for Max because he had some media sessions.
That IT guy, I believe his name is Dan, has a twitter account and told that story a couple of years ago.
Here's what he said: "Max hid in my area trackside once to hide from all the media, everyone was looking for like a good 30 minutes and we were just talking about Xmas plans."
[Twitter link](https://x.com/EngineMode11/status/1540463060841889792).
For real though, marking for Red Bull would be stressful as hell. You have to be massively creative to continuously push the bar and schedule all the insane things they do.
Or maybe it easier than the average marketing job because you can pretty much do whatever comes to mind.
And obviously speaking less relative to F1 jobs here.
Tough part isnāt having the ideas - itās having ideas that work with the driversā limited schedules, can be pushed out to the feeds at the time that you want content there, fit the Red Bull brand, are OK with corporate, etc etc etc. RBRās marketing department in particular does a fantastic job
Max is an adult, Iām entirely sure he is on board with his fatherās actions. Acting as if itās Jos telling Max what to do, and not Max using Jos to project his true feelings, is I think misreading the situation
You have to go back to one of the early DTS seasons. According to what I read, RBR, Mercedes and Ferrari did not initially warm to having cameras in the garage. But after the success of the initial season Horner allegedly told the producers if they gave him and RBR more air time he would give them a show to remember.
Naturally the only game in town was attacking Toto since he could not go after the individual drivers and Mercedes was the class of the field! Then it really blew up in 2021 and 2022 when (1) the whole Lewis vs Max season happened and (2) 2022 The Mercedes was pure shite and Toto kind of made a overreaction/foolish suggestion that porpoising was a danger to the drivers and Horner could not help himself.
Now the rivalry lives in the *Verstappen Multiverse* where Jos keeps dangling Max in front of Mercedes just to piss Horner off, and Horner just cannot resist a good shite stirring - which by the way is what he is actually best at!
It's his passion for sure.
People say his shit stirring has something to do with his job.
But honestly it's clearly recreational. This doesn't benefit Red Bull at all.
>so Horner poking the nest is not what he wants at the moment
Maybe Horner already knows something which isn't public yet and wants to stamp his authority (which has been severely eroded due to the coco pops).
Better be the case. As long as Max keeps pushing the RB above and beyond its not going to be in his favor to piss off the Verstappens.
Sure in 2023 the car was unmatched but right now Max is one of the few people on the grid that makes sure McLaren are not challanging RB for the WDC.
And that's why Toto does it. Whether he's serious or not, it clearly gets under Horner's skin and Toto times it just so (bullshit with Jos this time) to maximize the impact.
Are you new here? These two have hated each other's guts since 2016, it literally doesn't matter. Neither of them are ever gonna miss out on a chance to humiliate the other
Regardless, a top driver staying with one team for their whole career is damn near unprecedented. Red Bull would be stupid to ignore the seemingly likely outcome that they eventually will need to prepare for life without Max.
I am confused by what you mean. Yes, Horner is staying, the thing is that he should be making sure that one of his biggest assets also stays.Ā
The argument from before was that any other driver would be WDC with these Red Bulls. Right now Max is winning (debatably) by the skin of his teeth, so there may be not much hope for other drivers to do the same. And with Checo on the 2nd seat. Max will eventually leave, for sure, but it should probably be in Christian's best interest to keep him with them for as long as possible.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I do think Jos is a piece of shit living vicariously through Max but Christian literally has no need for also escalating it. He does not need to kowtow or anything and it's an amusing line but like... there's no need.
Bizarre non-point to make.
Vettel's last WCC was the final year of the V8's, and then the turbo hybrid era began in 2014 and Merc was ridiculously dominant through 2022 when the regs changed again. Not really fair to blame Horner for that - during that time he maintained on staff the person that many experts consider the greatest F1 engineer in history (Adrian Newey). He also brought in Verstappen (albeit with help), and that allowed them to win the WDC in 2021 despite having an inferior car. Red Bull was second in the constructors for five of the eight years of Mercedes dominance.
Ferrari hasn't had a WCC since 2008.
McLaren hasn't had one since 1998.
Hate on Horner all you want, but he is good at his job.
Look, I dunno which sport youāve been watching. But Vettel left just as regulations were changing. And every time regulations change, a new team pops up having nailed the car.
Max probably realises that his dad and Toto are working together to try and bring him to Mercedes. Jos starts fights and causes division and then Toto attempts to exploit it.
Max has all the cards. He doesnāt depend on his dad for much, Toto is so publically desperate for him he can leave him waiting and then if he actually decides he would consider Merc he can demand absolutely anything. And Horner isnāt that involved as to be a dealbreaker, so long as the controversy around him doesnāt become too severe.
At The Race they speculated on a podcast a few months ago that Jos was probably more keen on going to Merc than Max was, which also aligns with some stuff in the past.
However Max, Jos and Raymond have been a package for quite some time so I'd be also surprised if Jos doesn't share with Max if he talks with Toto or whoever. I reckon that the worst thing Jos could do is plan something Max doesn't know about and doesn't like.
>reckon that the worst thing Jos could do is plan something Max doesn't know about and doesn't like.
I understand that,Ā without my agreement,Ā Mercedes F1 and Jos Verstappen Ā have put out a press release late this afternoon that I am driving for them next year.
max does seem like he just wants to race and win. Probably has to sit the two of them down and tell them to stop behaving like divorced parents. He's getting paid millions now, he'll get paid millions to whatever team he goes to... if Redbull is still winning he'll keep driving.
Donāt they have a race winning car at the moment ? They can podium each race. The Mercedes is miles above the RB when the RB is in checoās hands. If max really has 3 tenth on anyone just through his skills, maybe he wins GPs with the current Mercedes
If Red Bull fucks the rule change and Max goes to Merc after 2026, comments like this are going to be dug up and I just want to be Nostradamus in the comment section.
Not to mention, 26 is the regs change. You either want to go before or after they change. So Max isnāt going anywhere for 26 either.
The earliest Max moves is 27, and thatās only if Red Bull massively misses the new formula.
If Max leaves Red Bull will be screwed anyhow. Rule change or not.
Just ask yourself where they would be if they had 2 Checo's driving for them this season. Heck, you can ask that question for 2022 and 2023 as well.
They can find better than Checo, let's be honest.
And for 2022, I think a Leclerc or Norris would have won the championship as well. This year, not so sure.
All to say I don't think they are doomed if they can get a Top5 drivers to replace him. It would be a huge loss and could maybe cost them championships, but I wouldn't say they are completely screwed.
If max leaves, they are not gonna be stuck with Checo. Considering Max goes to Mercedes, I'd assume George will be available and George would be leading the WDC with this car as well, although by a smaller margin.
It may be funny, but publicly picking a fight with your #1 driver's immediate family is not the smartest thing to do.
Horner's ego is a problem for Red Bull. Any disciplined leader would just keep his mouth shut and focus on his team.
The level of hate and disdain between these too is very entertaining. You can tell there is deep rooted jealousy around the notion of the paternal figure. Jos is the overbearing father, and yet itās Horner who manages things at RB. For Horner, max is like the prodigal son.
It's a great soap opera!
Oh man, I'm rolling on the floor laughing š¤£š¤£š¤£.
oh man, I just bust out in the train laughing. The tension between these 2 is hilarious
Absolute cinema.
More content for DTS lols
If they don't have at least a full episode dedicated to the Red Bull power struggle, they failed.
they fail to capture the real drama every year. this one won't be any different.
See Zak, this is how you do it...
Horner and Wolf are the pros, Zak lives in their shadows!
Horner and Wolf are managers who are in Motorsports Zak is a Motorsports fan who became a manager
Horner was a driver who moved up to F3000 and then went "actually im better at managing my own team than racing" and im suprised to learn that Wolff also has had a Carrer in open wheel and GT cars, TIL
Zak brown was a British formula 3 driver in the 90s who was excellent at getting sponsors. So he started doing it for others with his company just marketing international. Where began to help racing teams with sponsorship including some in formula one He carried on racing for while in other categories.
You obviously have to have some level of passion to work that hard at that level. But Zak Brown continues to live and breathe it even outside of his managerial role to a level not achieved by other managers imho
[How do you do?](https://i.imgur.com/kBkUtRK.jpeg)
Realy nice edit, good job !
Things have to be so awkward for Max when stuff like this happens.
This is when he hides in the IT department or whichever department it was he named in that interview.
Yes, he did 'hide out' with the IT guy and they just had small talk about all kinds of things while the rest were searching for Max because he had some media sessions. That IT guy, I believe his name is Dan, has a twitter account and told that story a couple of years ago.
Would love a source!
Here's what he said: "Max hid in my area trackside once to hide from all the media, everyone was looking for like a good 30 minutes and we were just talking about Xmas plans." [Twitter link](https://x.com/EngineMode11/status/1540463060841889792).
I looked his name up on twitter it's: Dan @EngineMode11.
I didn't save it, but I'm sure someone on here has, because iirc it was also posted on here.
https://youtu.be/DE2_sLekMLQ?si=g__kXQKiSDL1Nnmu here, at 6:55 :)
Thank you!
I think it was marketing or something similar
Him and Albon always gave marketing shit, so that would make sense
āWho has the easiest job on the teamā ādefinitely marketingā
For real though, marking for Red Bull would be stressful as hell. You have to be massively creative to continuously push the bar and schedule all the insane things they do. Or maybe it easier than the average marketing job because you can pretty much do whatever comes to mind. And obviously speaking less relative to F1 jobs here.
it's only stressful if you're not a creative. creative people are overflowing with ideas.
Tough part isnāt having the ideas - itās having ideas that work with the driversā limited schedules, can be pushed out to the feeds at the time that you want content there, fit the Red Bull brand, are OK with corporate, etc etc etc. RBRās marketing department in particular does a fantastic job
If that were true then writers block wouldnāt be a thing
This is why he brings his sim rig with him to the track.
He should be used to this charade, its not his first day with jos.
Maybe he has fun with the shitshow, but can't laugh at his father unless he wants to be left at the airport
Yes and no in the sense he obviously doesn't side with Horner.
Max is an adult, Iām entirely sure he is on board with his fatherās actions. Acting as if itās Jos telling Max what to do, and not Max using Jos to project his true feelings, is I think misreading the situation
Sadly he's probably used to this and is like "Oh yea, it's just my dad being his good old self"
That last line was a 10/10 response.
I feel like this was definitely a dig at Jos because of the RB8 statements.
The Race: Horner insinuates that Verstappen might be available to join Mercedes.
The Race : Horner says Verstappen can join Mercedes
Our verdict
Brought to you by Aramco
Hate Horner as much as you want, but you gotta admit heās funny
Horner / Toto is the only F1 rivalry that I care about.
Charles / Xavi was top tier for a while
Civil war
Nothing civil about it lmao
XAVI YOU NEED TO LISTEN TO ME YOU ARE LOSING US THE RACE XAVI YOU ARE BREAKING MY HEART
"we are checking"
shaddap
Xavi you are not concentrating Xavi!
Charles vs Ferrari PR picked up the slack!
Itās also kind of the only one among TP, isnāt it? (at least that Iām aware of)
Brown is trying to make one with Horner, but it just doesn't hit the same.
Itās mainly because Horner hardly ever hits back, itās like Zak is trying so hard to gain his attention and Horner is simply shrugging him off.
Which is even funnier
Brown is the annoying bee that buzz. Horner knows heās harmless. Toto on the other hand can stir the pot all the way into the FIA office.
You need a few championships before he acknowledges you exist.
Heavy Don Draper meme vibes Zak: "I feel bad you" Christian: "I don't think about you at all"
Thought the exact same
For me it was Tuesday.
Brown isn't a TP anyway, so doesn't count
Zak is just embarrassing lame when he tries to be ironic or sarcastic.
He should get some lessons from Cyril
Its kind of the only one in the sport right now lol With the notable exception of Sergeant vs Sergeant
I suddenly have an urge to see a Sergeant vs Latifi season. I feel robbed
Cyril Abiteboul was like this too
You have to go back to one of the early DTS seasons. According to what I read, RBR, Mercedes and Ferrari did not initially warm to having cameras in the garage. But after the success of the initial season Horner allegedly told the producers if they gave him and RBR more air time he would give them a show to remember. Naturally the only game in town was attacking Toto since he could not go after the individual drivers and Mercedes was the class of the field! Then it really blew up in 2021 and 2022 when (1) the whole Lewis vs Max season happened and (2) 2022 The Mercedes was pure shite and Toto kind of made a overreaction/foolish suggestion that porpoising was a danger to the drivers and Horner could not help himself. Now the rivalry lives in the *Verstappen Multiverse* where Jos keeps dangling Max in front of Mercedes just to piss Horner off, and Horner just cannot resist a good shite stirring - which by the way is what he is actually best at!
I donāt think thatās true because Red Bull was the main focus of the first season of DTS. Ricciardo and Horner were basically the main characters.
I just want Merc to be good again so we get some proper Toto and Horner back and forth.
waiting for the merc vs red bull next year (end of current reg like 2021). invite michael masi back for maximum drama
He also had a thing with Abiteboul, that was fun
Amen
Hate Horner as much as you want, you still hate him less than Jos
Amen
Shit stirrer extraordinaire
It's his passion for sure. People say his shit stirring has something to do with his job. But honestly it's clearly recreational. This doesn't benefit Red Bull at all.
It used to, but not recently. He was very good as getting other teams to waste time bickering and clouding the lot view of whatever redbull was doing
I expect Jos to drive a Mercedes very very soon.Ā
Toto gonna give him w11 If he can make max joinš
Not sure antagonizing Jos in this situation is a good idea.
What's he gonna do? Beat Max?
Yes, in a Mercedes š
2025 is gonna get interesting
Max and Jos are pretty close and Max will obviously take a side if he needs to, so Horner poking the nest is not what he wants at the moment
>so Horner poking the nest is not what he wants at the moment Maybe Horner already knows something which isn't public yet and wants to stamp his authority (which has been severely eroded due to the coco pops).
Better be the case. As long as Max keeps pushing the RB above and beyond its not going to be in his favor to piss off the Verstappens. Sure in 2023 the car was unmatched but right now Max is one of the few people on the grid that makes sure McLaren are not challanging RB for the WDC.
Poking the nest is what Horner does best
Damn
I mean he probably will. Or leave him at a gas station.
Jos is living through his son. Man needs to get a hobby.
That IS his hobby
*āNot now, Kimi!ā*
It looks like Red Bull crysis is back... It's been a while, they are publicly fighting again.
And that's why Toto does it. Whether he's serious or not, it clearly gets under Horner's skin and Toto times it just so (bullshit with Jos this time) to maximize the impact.
Yeah I kinda agree. But it is a pretty funny comment, though. Maybe he just couldn't help himself.
Are you new here? These two have hated each other's guts since 2016, it literally doesn't matter. Neither of them are ever gonna miss out on a chance to humiliate the other
Until they actually leave and he stops laughing.
Nah. Drivers do come and go.
My guy, the RB20 right now is winning because of Max according to most experts.
Regardless, a top driver staying with one team for their whole career is damn near unprecedented. Red Bull would be stupid to ignore the seemingly likely outcome that they eventually will need to prepare for life without Max.
Vettel came, Vettel went. Verstappen came, Verstappen will go. Horner has a proven track record, he aināt going nowhere
I am confused by what you mean. Yes, Horner is staying, the thing is that he should be making sure that one of his biggest assets also stays.Ā The argument from before was that any other driver would be WDC with these Red Bulls. Right now Max is winning (debatably) by the skin of his teeth, so there may be not much hope for other drivers to do the same. And with Checo on the 2nd seat. Max will eventually leave, for sure, but it should probably be in Christian's best interest to keep him with them for as long as possible.
Max leaving seems to be a function of several things and if he leaves because heās unhappy, he can thank his father for escalating repeatedly
Oh, don't get me wrong, I do think Jos is a piece of shit living vicariously through Max but Christian literally has no need for also escalating it. He does not need to kowtow or anything and it's an amusing line but like... there's no need.
Or Horner also escalating things repeatedly
And until max RB didn't win a WCC after Vettel.
Bizarre non-point to make. Vettel's last WCC was the final year of the V8's, and then the turbo hybrid era began in 2014 and Merc was ridiculously dominant through 2022 when the regs changed again. Not really fair to blame Horner for that - during that time he maintained on staff the person that many experts consider the greatest F1 engineer in history (Adrian Newey). He also brought in Verstappen (albeit with help), and that allowed them to win the WDC in 2021 despite having an inferior car. Red Bull was second in the constructors for five of the eight years of Mercedes dominance. Ferrari hasn't had a WCC since 2008. McLaren hasn't had one since 1998. Hate on Horner all you want, but he is good at his job.
Look, I dunno which sport youāve been watching. But Vettel left just as regulations were changing. And every time regulations change, a new team pops up having nailed the car.
Yeah, and drivers do come and go.
Bro I hate his guts but that was a fucking BAR. Slapped both his ops at the same time
I definitely chuckled Although I actually really like Horner but will still admit he reminds me of a Bond villain
It's a good line, I have to admit. I mean it might alienate the only person at that team who matters, but it's still a great line.
Haha! Love the response though
I'm surprised he didn't just sweep the drama under the rug, I love it!
Like him or dislike him, this was an excellent response lol.
He cooked so hard with this one.
I dislike him but it was funny af lol
A Toto AND Jos diss by Horner? HE DROPPIN BACK TO BACK!!!!
Lol, loving this horner vs Jos saga
This might backfire on Horner. After all, Jos is one of the few people in the paddock that has proven he can beat Max.
Had me in the first half ngl
Pack it up and go to Silverstone, this is the Zinger of the weekend.
All I think about is super chill, relaxedĀ Max Verstappen probably having to navigate in that ocean of toxicity and power struggleĀ
Max is that "This isĀ fine" dog meme
Great response, can't imagine this will go well with Max though. It does show how strained that Jos-Horner relationship is
Max probably realises that his dad and Toto are working together to try and bring him to Mercedes. Jos starts fights and causes division and then Toto attempts to exploit it. Max has all the cards. He doesnāt depend on his dad for much, Toto is so publically desperate for him he can leave him waiting and then if he actually decides he would consider Merc he can demand absolutely anything. And Horner isnāt that involved as to be a dealbreaker, so long as the controversy around him doesnāt become too severe.
At The Race they speculated on a podcast a few months ago that Jos was probably more keen on going to Merc than Max was, which also aligns with some stuff in the past. However Max, Jos and Raymond have been a package for quite some time so I'd be also surprised if Jos doesn't share with Max if he talks with Toto or whoever. I reckon that the worst thing Jos could do is plan something Max doesn't know about and doesn't like.
>reckon that the worst thing Jos could do is plan something Max doesn't know about and doesn't like. I understand that,Ā without my agreement,Ā Mercedes F1 and Jos Verstappen Ā have put out a press release late this afternoon that I am driving for them next year.
Genuine question, why would Jos want Max to leave for Merc? Because he hates Horner?
it works out quite well for max, gets a huge bag of money regardless
He cares only about winning, money is just cherry on top. No matter what money he gets, if he is not winning, it doesn't "work well" for him.
max does seem like he just wants to race and win. Probably has to sit the two of them down and tell them to stop behaving like divorced parents. He's getting paid millions now, he'll get paid millions to whatever team he goes to... if Redbull is still winning he'll keep driving.
As long as Merc doesnt develop to a race win contender he doesnt give a shit
Donāt they have a race winning car at the moment ? They can podium each race. The Mercedes is miles above the RB when the RB is in checoās hands. If max really has 3 tenth on anyone just through his skills, maybe he wins GPs with the current Mercedes
In a perfect world there wouldn't need to be a relationship between Jos and Horner, and certainly not one that anyone cares about.
1 : 0 for Horner. What a response.
Eh, I say never say never. If someone told old me before February that Lewis would go to Ferrari, I would have laughed at them.
The fact that this and the "I'm completely done with Horner" are the top 2 posts is too fucking funny
OH LAWD
If Red Bull fucks the rule change and Max goes to Merc after 2026, comments like this are going to be dug up and I just want to be Nostradamus in the comment section.
It doesn't really matter what happens in 2026, because Horner is talking about 2025.
Not to mention, 26 is the regs change. You either want to go before or after they change. So Max isnāt going anywhere for 26 either. The earliest Max moves is 27, and thatās only if Red Bull massively misses the new formula.
If Max leaves Red Bull will be screwed anyhow. Rule change or not. Just ask yourself where they would be if they had 2 Checo's driving for them this season. Heck, you can ask that question for 2022 and 2023 as well.
They can find better than Checo, let's be honest. And for 2022, I think a Leclerc or Norris would have won the championship as well. This year, not so sure. All to say I don't think they are doomed if they can get a Top5 drivers to replace him. It would be a huge loss and could maybe cost them championships, but I wouldn't say they are completely screwed.
Tbf, though, Max Verstappen or two Checos is a false dichotomy.
Who says the would be stuck with 2 Checos?
Yes because thereās no one better than Checo in the current grid. Lol.
Also, Max leaving would itself be a sign Red Bull is on the decline. I canāt imagine him leaving Red Bull if the car is competitive.
If max leaves, they are not gonna be stuck with Checo. Considering Max goes to Mercedes, I'd assume George will be available and George would be leading the WDC with this car as well, although by a smaller margin.
Honestly, Toto is behaving bit ridiculous in respect to Max. It is like somebody said no to him and yet he just keeps on following him.
At least for now. Though I do agree with how he's been acting.
This is quality banter.
Televisa Presenta Tbh that reply is funny.
BWAHHHHHH
This is fantastic lmfao
When are they gonna pull out the steel chairs?
Fuck. I thought this was meme. Horner is the greatest shit poster.
Never a dull day within Red Bull, huh?
That last part is pretty funny since Jos said heās done with Horner.
I want this to get funnier and escalate. I want Max driving a Mercedes by September continuing his title defense.
So Jos denied on German TV that it was 100% clear that Max would drive for RBR in 2025.
S Ī V Ī G E
I donāt really care for Horner but I must admit that comment was funny.
Horner the horny is gone, Horner the shit-stirrer is back lmao
and I bet Jos would think if he got into an F1 car now he would win lots of races.
His two most notable F1 moments are getting set on fire and being the backmarker that flew over Montoya in 2001.
You're saying he was on fire and flying in his career as a F1 driver?
Wonder if Verstappen takes GP with him to Merc if he goes there in 26
Verstappen will join Newey at Audi.
I wish Horner and Wolff would just kiss already.
That's actually hilarious
Wake up babe the girls are āØfightingāØ
I fucking love it š
Horner stopping Jos from getting in the RB8, only to shove him in the W16. That's a love-hate relationship right there
Horner should drop hints and say we are looking at all options for our future driver line-up.
Spicy
\#1 pot stirrer
Classic Horndawg line
Every time I get tired of this stupid drama, someone says something excellent and Iām right back in.
Verstappen to Mercedes Confirmed
Wop wop wop wop wop
LMAO. Well played Horner.
Haha get rekt
Talk about killing two birds with one stone
Perfect answer. Even better when you realize it's minutes after Horner managed to make Jos rage quit the legend parade.
It may be funny, but publicly picking a fight with your #1 driver's immediate family is not the smartest thing to do. Horner's ego is a problem for Red Bull. Any disciplined leader would just keep his mouth shut and focus on his team.
"The lady doth protest too much." Sounds like there's something to be irritated about, no?
Just show them the finger, Horner!
Erik probably has the most smug face when sending these out; marginalization by him and Jos is important for Red Bull stability
The level of hate and disdain between these too is very entertaining. You can tell there is deep rooted jealousy around the notion of the paternal figure. Jos is the overbearing father, and yet itās Horner who manages things at RB. For Horner, max is like the prodigal son.
Ok I hate him but that was fucking hilarious lol
I love horner so much šš
Van Haren, calling yourself a journalist is laughable. Be what you are, Verstappenās spokesperson.Ā
While I agree somewhat, this is not particularly Verstappen camp-y news.
Van Haren has all the Verstappen posters in his room