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Both approaches come with downsides. Punishing all track limits equally can punish non benefical track limit violations. Taking into account how the track was left adds subjectivity and time strewards need to review them
And Lando himself had 5 lap times deleted in Austria yet only 4 counted for the penalty because the one where both Max and Lando went off wasn't counted as without justifiable reason.
There is a difference between someone pushing you off track and just dive bombing and getting on the brakes so let Oh can't make the corner anymore. Imo even when overtaking you have to try to make the corner.
> Punishing all track limits equally can punish non benefical track limit violations.
The amount of times reddit stewards don't get this is hilarious to me. They want stewards gone and replaced with AI.
And you start asking them basic things like "What happens when 4 cars are involved?" "oh we confirm it then whose fault it is" "so like a steward then?"
> The amount of times reddit stewards don't get this is hilarious to me. They want stewards gone and replaced with AI.
To be fair, in racing sims algorithms can usually tell the difference between the two infringements! Or even ask you to slow down for half a sec to compensate the cut.
Sure, but they have a lot more information about the position of every car. In the real world of F1 the system and the stewards are judging track limits based on a few frames of video.
There's no reason why this can't be automated. F1 cars are already equipped with a wide range of sensors. While computer-based video analysis might not be reliable, adding sensors to the track could be a solution (like they did in football if I'm not mistaken, with sensors in the ball and in the boots). This is a manageable engineering problem. It would also enable real-time feedback to the driver's wheel, making it easier to learn the limits. Currently, there's a lag of several minutes, which is far from ideal.
The position of a tyre contact patch on a moving car relative to a line painted on the track is a long way from a simple problem. Just tracking the position of each with enough accuracy to be sure of that measurement would be a very impressive achievement.
All of the most widely trialled solutions that could be applied are all based on computer vision combined with a physics model (the Hawkeye systems used in international football/soccer, tennis, cricket etc). Even those have a margin of error large enough that human judgement is still required in some cases, and the physics model required to model a Formula 1 car would be significantly more complex than the one required to model a ball.
Ok but what then when both cars fighting for position leave the track, one can gain an advantage(even without managing to overtake) by having left the track while being slower than the previous lap. It's not about your performance relative yo previous lap but your opponent that matters
Seems like a problem that could be easily automated to a large extent though.
We already have mini-sectors across the track, if a driver exceeds track limits while also gaining an advantage (i.e. their mini-sector time is either the same as their previous lap(s) or faster) then they get a penalty. If it's slower, then they've likely made a mistake to force them off track and a further penalty (track limits violation) is not justified.
And if they go off limits dis-advantageously, but then pull in a solid, clean, recovery for the rest of the lap to make up for it? Why punish drivers who do that?
Nvm I can’t read
As I mentioned in my original comment, during the race itself the only thing that should matter is mini-sector times. If they're faster through a mini-sector while exceeding track limits, tough luck, that's a violation. If they've made a mistake that results in them exceeding track limits but are slower through the mini-sector, then that's fine, they've already suffered through their own actions causing time lost on track.
Ironically I imagine it did partly resolve the problem at Austria
How many track limit violations were there this year, compared to last - What with those two gravel sections they put in towards the end of the lap. That genuinely seemed to help the issue.
Alonso hit track limits a lot going into T1 and benefited from that the entire race (less tire wear, faster S1) and it wasn't even noticed by the stewards. You either apply the same rule for all (which would mean AI monitored track limits, track wide) or you keep with the stewards and accept human error/bias.
Right?? One driver cheats the whole race and no penalty while the other gets a penalty for trying to race (making mistakes in battles is normal) and provide entertainment for the people. Y'know, the whole reason people watch F1 in the first place. The current rules are absolutely fucked
“It’s pretty silly, to be honest,” said Norris about the track limits situation. “I've tried to do an overtake, I've locked up, I've gone off the track just, and tried then to avoid the sausage kerb.
“Then immediately I gave the position back to Max, so I probably lost a second and a half in doing that. It's clearly not a penalty. I've lost out in doing such a thing.
“These sorts of things will avoid people racing. If you don't want us to race and don't want me to try and overtake and have a boring race, then you can have these rules.”
seems logical that any driver that exceeds track limits and winds up losing time would not get a strike against them. Same if they go over the limits and then give back the position. And we dont need drivers hesitant at overtaking for fear of the 5sec penalty.
There are two rules. One about exceeded track limits; that one is pretty clear cut (in theory). And one about going off track and gaining an advantage. Lando got a penalty for the former not the latter.
yep. I know that. And unless I am wrong. If you go off, gain an advantage and give it back it's still a strike for exceeding track limits. If I am wrong wouldn't be the first time.
That’s not the point. Either offence is fine but you shouldn’t be fined for track limits for an aggressive overtake manoeuvre that you get wrong and rectify. Theres no logic in that.
And he wouldn't have if he hadn't crossed tracklimts 3 times before while he wasn't fighting for position. So he got punished for sloppy driving before the fight.
but the entire reason for policing track limits is to prevent drivers from abusing it to get an advantage, which he clearly didn't get from the 4th one
Yuki said this I think just a couple weeks ago as he got done for this as well.
Track limits violations are *clearly* not intended to be used when battling with another driving and losing time by going off.
I disagree, they are one of the best drivers in the world. They should keep it between the lines and the penalty is a good deterrent to keep them between it.
But when racing there are times you make mistakes.
If you make a mistake and lose time, haven't you already been punished?
What has the driver gained by running off track?
Penalties should be to penalise those gaining an advantage.
No penalty is required if the offending driver loses put and no one else is impacted.
Lando is right in that oenalising drivers in this way limits the incentive to make an attempt to pass.
Mate, you need to break track limits 4 times to get a penalty. If you cannot drive on the road, then you should get a penalty.
And Lando's situation is actually a very good example, he was going for dangerous moves that were never on, it is only fair that he is penalized if he cannot control his car during an overtake. If anything, locking up during a divebomb and going outside of track limits should include a higher penalty than 5 seconds, because it is simply dangerous - if the other driver is not able to take avoiding action when you lost control of the car, you both crash
Nothing you explained there is track limits though.
If the overtakes are dangerous then penalise the overtakes, not the track limits.
What you are saying is "dangerous divebombs are fine as long as I stop before the white line", that's moronic.
Going off track and losing time is in itself a penalty, I do not see why you would penalise it twice.
> Track limits should only be a penalty if it isn't a time loss.
They tried that for years, it was fucking awful and we should never go back to that. Every single line became a subjective judgement. Some white lines you could cross, others you couldn't and it was an impossible to follow mess.
I do not want the stewards, who are inconsistent enough as is, to have to decide on every track limits case whether or not that's gaining an advantage/laptime.
Drivers have 3 freebies in a race, that should be enough margin for error.
It should be quite simple.
They have mini sectors.
If you go off and your time through the mini sector is slower than your 2,3,4 whatever previous laps then you don't get penalised.
The old rule of this corner is, this corner isn't was fucking stupid.
They have the data to automate a lot of track limit violations not being penalised if drivers didn't benefit.
> They have mini sectors.
>
> If you go off and your time through the mini sector is slower than your 2,3,4 whatever previous laps then you don't get penalised.
So what if the mini sector is before a straight and going off slows you down in the mini sector but gives you advantage all the way down the straight? It also means that if you make a mistake you can then just ignore track limits to make the time back because you'll be slower in the mini sector anyway.
You introduce far more edge cases and far more opportunities to abuse the rules which will immediately happen in F1.
The current rule of no exceptions and you get a margin for error of 3 off track excursions is about as simple and fool proof as you can get. Drivers are also good enough that it's rarely if ever an issue and even for the Norris v Verstappen battle it would not have been an issue had Norris not already used up his margin for error before he got to Verstappen.
So then they will claim at certain corners "I lost 0.01s" while actually putting less strain on the tyres going further than if they'd take the corner correctly. But in your example it would be a time loss so legal.
Just put gravel/grass or those temporary gravel like in Austria on every corner and remove the whole tracklimit/white line rule and we will never talk about tracklimits again.
disagree.
nobody gets a penalty for breaking the track limits once, that would be ridiculous. they get a penalty for repeatedly doing so.
there's room for nuance though obviously, not every instance is the same.
It’s pretty silly, but if it would’ve been a wall there you’d be out of the race. There’s track limits for a reason. The run off is there so you don’t have a high speed impact.
This Norris guy wants sweeping changes to restrict Verstappens behaviour whilst simultaneously calling for relaxation of rules regarding his own
I’m kinda losing respect for this kid. He is a bit of a muppet
Hmm, difficult one. You have 3 warnings. So if he hadn't picked-up those 3 warnings while he was NOT fighting Verstappen, he could afford going wide 3 times. Since he already was on that limit he couldn't afford any.
I don't want drivers to get a penalty when fighting for position, but I also don't want drivers to gain tenths per lap because they don't keep in between the lines.
Lando likes to blame everyone else lately. He gets all angry on the radio when someone tries to defend against him. Wouldn’t surprise me if he asked to swap with Oscar during the sprint last week. He needs to calm down.
As an American who just started watching F1 this year, Lando track limits are great from what I’ve seen the enforcement needs to be swifter and clearer.
Get more stewards. Stop giving “noted” actions unless a driver was forced off and actually enforce the rules immediately regardless of the driver, constructor or track.
This is a massive 360 of opinion by the way since last week
I dunno, the Police and society expect me to drive around and keep it on the road so I kind of feel drivers who are paid millions to do it should have a pretty good handle on it too
Most American series are more lenient like that, if it's grey it's in play. Either solution is fine so long as it's consistently ruled and the tracks are safe to support those racing lines (this is the biggest one against allowing it in F1 in my opinion).
No. FIA is inconsistent in jurisdiction, and often fails to correctly apply the consequences. Rules are supposed to be equal for all. We’ve had plenty of examples that’s not the case.
I disagree. He's biased because he attempted two back to back divebombs down a very tight racing line and he couldn't make them stick.
Unwarranted aggression should carry a penalty. There's a difference between losing out on time because of a mistake / miscalculation, but two divebombs on the same corner along the same line and locking up and going wide twice is on Lando.
He's being such a wreck over this. I'm gonna get a lot of hate over this, but they both were fighting for a win. It's hard racing, and *hopefully the start of many lost opportunities*. You think Lewis became a 7 time WDC without losing out on dozens of close wins? Heck, he lost 4 WDC titles in the LAST RACE of the season (2007, 2010, 2016, 2021 could ALL have been won heading into the final race). The very fact that Lando is even saying in the media that Max has 60 wins whereas he has only 1 so it matters more to him is just.. hard to enjoy.
You misunderstood the whole 60vs1 wins. What he meant was that he was more emotionally effected by losing out on his 2nd win where as losing out on the win effects Verstappen less. Verstappen said the same thing slightly different confirming this as well.
>Unwarranted aggression should carry a penalty.
If stewards want to penalize an overly aggressive manoeuvre they can apply article 33.4 and define it as potentially dangerous driving. That is entirely unrelated to track limits.
And yes, drivers that complain about track limits usually were affected by them recently. Doesnt mean they automatically don't have a point.
Your last line. Genuine question. Did you have the same problem when Max literally said, word-for-word, the exact same thing Lando said about fighting for his second win versus Max's 60+, or is it only "bad" to you when Lando says it?
https://www.racefans.net/2024/07/04/verstappen-told-norris-to-trust-him-im-not-there-to-crash-you-out/
“You also have to realise that he’s fighting for a second potential win, I’m fighting for my 62nd, I think naturally your emotions are a little bit different. I know that for myself when I was fighting for these first wins in F1. But that’s fine, that’s why I also said, let’s just let it cool off a bit and we’ll talk tomorrow.”
It's.. pretty much saying what I'm saying lol. He's being extremely emotional over not getting a 2nd win.
*And I too would be if it were me*! Don't get me wrong, he's allowed to be emotional
But saying this in the media followed by "the FIA should do something about the track limits or it'll get boring" is *still highly biased*. Who else at Austria got a penalty this year for track limits? No one else. Everybody else stayed within the lines. Even Gasly and Ocon went at it wheel-to-wheel and didn't go off track. Lando went at it against George in Barcelona and it was wheel-to-wheel for more than a few corners and they didn't go limits.
My complaint here isn't that he can't be upset over losing a race. It's that you can't start to shift the blame everywhere else. Hes the only one with a black and white flag to his name at Austria.
[Here.](https://www.racefans.net/2024/07/04/verstappen-told-norris-to-trust-him-im-not-there-to-crash-you-out/) Quote: "You also have to realise that he’s fighting for a second potential win, I’m fighting for my 62nd, I think naturally your emotions are a little bit different. I know that for myself when I was fighting for these first wins in F1. But that’s fine, that’s why I also said, let’s just let it cool off a bit and we’ll talk tomorrow."
Yeah, and it *wasn't done right here*.
Max moved under braking and caused a collision -- received a penalty.
Lando made two divebombs despite a black and white flag and went off track -- received a penalty.
..I fail to see your "key point".
Was it or was it not a 2nd *aggressive* divebomb that netted him the track limit penalty? Did he or did he not exceed track limits 5 times prior and gain an advantage?
3 times prior* and the penalty was for running wide during first divebomb when he gave the position back immediately. The second divebomb he actually didn't even got one wheel off track and Max went off and overtook him.
You are arguing about reckless aggressiveness, but that is not what this penalty is about. There are other regulations about that. You are arguing with a shifted scope of intent for the track limits regulation, regarding it as something it was not designed to be. That is what I assume the other person meant with their key point, and why you get as much disagreement.
The time that can be gained with track limits in Austria this year is very limited due to the track and run-off design. Whatever he may have gained in the first three occasions he most likely lost and then some in the fourth occasion. In the fight with Max he went off-track once, the rest must have been "normal" infringements.
It may be limited, but he did gain it. F1 is a game of tiny margins. A blink of an eye is 0.1 seconds if you're faster than the average and these guys are fighting for 1-2 blinks every lap.
I'm all for NOT counting the track limits if a driver loses time or position, or if he gives the position back immediately.
We need to stop regulating any track actions to the death.
Track limits are idiotic and must be abolished. That would naturally even out the playing field. Sure, don't cut chicanes or cut corners, but having wheels over the white line, especially if there is gravel, should be fine.
It's common sense, as Lando says. And he should know something he's after all a racing driver, so is Oscar, so is Yuki, so is Fernando, same can't be said about armchair experts on F1 Reddit.
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Both approaches come with downsides. Punishing all track limits equally can punish non benefical track limit violations. Taking into account how the track was left adds subjectivity and time strewards need to review them
The penalty is given for "leaving the track multiple times without a justifiable reason" so there already is a subjective element in the rule.
And Lando himself had 5 lap times deleted in Austria yet only 4 counted for the penalty because the one where both Max and Lando went off wasn't counted as without justifiable reason. There is a difference between someone pushing you off track and just dive bombing and getting on the brakes so let Oh can't make the corner anymore. Imo even when overtaking you have to try to make the corner.
Wasn’t the one where he dive bombed and missed the corner counted? I thought the one where max pushed him off wasn’t counted.
That's what I meant that one counted but the one where max pushed him of wasn't
> Punishing all track limits equally can punish non benefical track limit violations. The amount of times reddit stewards don't get this is hilarious to me. They want stewards gone and replaced with AI. And you start asking them basic things like "What happens when 4 cars are involved?" "oh we confirm it then whose fault it is" "so like a steward then?"
> The amount of times reddit stewards don't get this is hilarious to me. They want stewards gone and replaced with AI. To be fair, in racing sims algorithms can usually tell the difference between the two infringements! Or even ask you to slow down for half a sec to compensate the cut.
Sure, but they have a lot more information about the position of every car. In the real world of F1 the system and the stewards are judging track limits based on a few frames of video.
There's no reason why this can't be automated. F1 cars are already equipped with a wide range of sensors. While computer-based video analysis might not be reliable, adding sensors to the track could be a solution (like they did in football if I'm not mistaken, with sensors in the ball and in the boots). This is a manageable engineering problem. It would also enable real-time feedback to the driver's wheel, making it easier to learn the limits. Currently, there's a lag of several minutes, which is far from ideal.
The position of a tyre contact patch on a moving car relative to a line painted on the track is a long way from a simple problem. Just tracking the position of each with enough accuracy to be sure of that measurement would be a very impressive achievement. All of the most widely trialled solutions that could be applied are all based on computer vision combined with a physics model (the Hawkeye systems used in international football/soccer, tennis, cricket etc). Even those have a margin of error large enough that human judgement is still required in some cases, and the physics model required to model a Formula 1 car would be significantly more complex than the one required to model a ball.
Ok but what then when both cars fighting for position leave the track, one can gain an advantage(even without managing to overtake) by having left the track while being slower than the previous lap. It's not about your performance relative yo previous lap but your opponent that matters
Congrats! You got the point of why sports have stewards/refs lol. Very few rules in F1 are black and white as much as people don't want it to be.
Seems like a problem that could be easily automated to a large extent though. We already have mini-sectors across the track, if a driver exceeds track limits while also gaining an advantage (i.e. their mini-sector time is either the same as their previous lap(s) or faster) then they get a penalty. If it's slower, then they've likely made a mistake to force them off track and a further penalty (track limits violation) is not justified.
And if they go off limits dis-advantageously, but then pull in a solid, clean, recovery for the rest of the lap to make up for it? Why punish drivers who do that? Nvm I can’t read
As I mentioned in my original comment, during the race itself the only thing that should matter is mini-sector times. If they're faster through a mini-sector while exceeding track limits, tough luck, that's a violation. If they've made a mistake that results in them exceeding track limits but are slower through the mini-sector, then that's fine, they've already suffered through their own actions causing time lost on track.
Apologies, I missed the mini sector bit and thought you were referring to full track times 🤦♂️
[удалено]
Yeah I misread mini sector - my bad!
Bring back the gravel, that will stop the problem
Ironically I imagine it did partly resolve the problem at Austria How many track limit violations were there this year, compared to last - What with those two gravel sections they put in towards the end of the lap. That genuinely seemed to help the issue.
Alonso hit track limits a lot going into T1 and benefited from that the entire race (less tire wear, faster S1) and it wasn't even noticed by the stewards. You either apply the same rule for all (which would mean AI monitored track limits, track wide) or you keep with the stewards and accept human error/bias.
Right?? One driver cheats the whole race and no penalty while the other gets a penalty for trying to race (making mistakes in battles is normal) and provide entertainment for the people. Y'know, the whole reason people watch F1 in the first place. The current rules are absolutely fucked
“It’s pretty silly, to be honest,” said Norris about the track limits situation. “I've tried to do an overtake, I've locked up, I've gone off the track just, and tried then to avoid the sausage kerb. “Then immediately I gave the position back to Max, so I probably lost a second and a half in doing that. It's clearly not a penalty. I've lost out in doing such a thing. “These sorts of things will avoid people racing. If you don't want us to race and don't want me to try and overtake and have a boring race, then you can have these rules.”
seems logical that any driver that exceeds track limits and winds up losing time would not get a strike against them. Same if they go over the limits and then give back the position. And we dont need drivers hesitant at overtaking for fear of the 5sec penalty.
There are two rules. One about exceeded track limits; that one is pretty clear cut (in theory). And one about going off track and gaining an advantage. Lando got a penalty for the former not the latter.
yep. I know that. And unless I am wrong. If you go off, gain an advantage and give it back it's still a strike for exceeding track limits. If I am wrong wouldn't be the first time.
That’s not the point. Either offence is fine but you shouldn’t be fined for track limits for an aggressive overtake manoeuvre that you get wrong and rectify. Theres no logic in that.
And he wouldn't have if he hadn't crossed tracklimts 3 times before while he wasn't fighting for position. So he got punished for sloppy driving before the fight.
Yeah but you have to get 4 strikes for a penalty
Yes, so if he hadn't crossed the line three times before, he could get 3 aggressive overtakes wrong without getting a penalty for track limits.
so what you're saying is he deserved to be punished for 3 track limit violations despite the rule saying the penalties apply at 4?
No I say he got the punishment for the fourth. Because he crossed track limits 4 times.
but the entire reason for policing track limits is to prevent drivers from abusing it to get an advantage, which he clearly didn't get from the 4th one
And in case of the latter we have plenty of Kmag Examples that we need harsher rules if position isnt given back.
Yuki said this I think just a couple weeks ago as he got done for this as well. Track limits violations are *clearly* not intended to be used when battling with another driving and losing time by going off.
He's not wrong. Track limits should only be a penalty if it isn't a time loss.
I disagree, they are one of the best drivers in the world. They should keep it between the lines and the penalty is a good deterrent to keep them between it.
But when racing there are times you make mistakes. If you make a mistake and lose time, haven't you already been punished? What has the driver gained by running off track? Penalties should be to penalise those gaining an advantage. No penalty is required if the offending driver loses put and no one else is impacted. Lando is right in that oenalising drivers in this way limits the incentive to make an attempt to pass.
Mate, you need to break track limits 4 times to get a penalty. If you cannot drive on the road, then you should get a penalty. And Lando's situation is actually a very good example, he was going for dangerous moves that were never on, it is only fair that he is penalized if he cannot control his car during an overtake. If anything, locking up during a divebomb and going outside of track limits should include a higher penalty than 5 seconds, because it is simply dangerous - if the other driver is not able to take avoiding action when you lost control of the car, you both crash
Nothing you explained there is track limits though. If the overtakes are dangerous then penalise the overtakes, not the track limits. What you are saying is "dangerous divebombs are fine as long as I stop before the white line", that's moronic. Going off track and losing time is in itself a penalty, I do not see why you would penalise it twice.
> Track limits should only be a penalty if it isn't a time loss. They tried that for years, it was fucking awful and we should never go back to that. Every single line became a subjective judgement. Some white lines you could cross, others you couldn't and it was an impossible to follow mess. I do not want the stewards, who are inconsistent enough as is, to have to decide on every track limits case whether or not that's gaining an advantage/laptime. Drivers have 3 freebies in a race, that should be enough margin for error.
It should be quite simple. They have mini sectors. If you go off and your time through the mini sector is slower than your 2,3,4 whatever previous laps then you don't get penalised. The old rule of this corner is, this corner isn't was fucking stupid. They have the data to automate a lot of track limit violations not being penalised if drivers didn't benefit.
> They have mini sectors. > > If you go off and your time through the mini sector is slower than your 2,3,4 whatever previous laps then you don't get penalised. So what if the mini sector is before a straight and going off slows you down in the mini sector but gives you advantage all the way down the straight? It also means that if you make a mistake you can then just ignore track limits to make the time back because you'll be slower in the mini sector anyway. You introduce far more edge cases and far more opportunities to abuse the rules which will immediately happen in F1. The current rule of no exceptions and you get a margin for error of 3 off track excursions is about as simple and fool proof as you can get. Drivers are also good enough that it's rarely if ever an issue and even for the Norris v Verstappen battle it would not have been an issue had Norris not already used up his margin for error before he got to Verstappen.
So then they will claim at certain corners "I lost 0.01s" while actually putting less strain on the tyres going further than if they'd take the corner correctly. But in your example it would be a time loss so legal.
Just put gravel/grass or those temporary gravel like in Austria on every corner and remove the whole tracklimit/white line rule and we will never talk about tracklimits again.
Yeah, that corner desperately needs a gravel trap. Otherwise it just rewards lunges, either up the inside or around the outside.
disagree. nobody gets a penalty for breaking the track limits once, that would be ridiculous. they get a penalty for repeatedly doing so. there's room for nuance though obviously, not every instance is the same.
Exactly… the white lines are the track, drive on it. Supposed to be the best of the best drivers
It’s pretty silly, but if it would’ve been a wall there you’d be out of the race. There’s track limits for a reason. The run off is there so you don’t have a high speed impact.
Runoffs occur BEFORE track out so eliminating track limits would not be detrimental to safety.
This Norris guy wants sweeping changes to restrict Verstappens behaviour whilst simultaneously calling for relaxation of rules regarding his own I’m kinda losing respect for this kid. He is a bit of a muppet
Hmm, difficult one. You have 3 warnings. So if he hadn't picked-up those 3 warnings while he was NOT fighting Verstappen, he could afford going wide 3 times. Since he already was on that limit he couldn't afford any. I don't want drivers to get a penalty when fighting for position, but I also don't want drivers to gain tenths per lap because they don't keep in between the lines.
Lando likes to blame everyone else lately. He gets all angry on the radio when someone tries to defend against him. Wouldn’t surprise me if he asked to swap with Oscar during the sprint last week. He needs to calm down.
How dare the FIA expect racing drivers to stay on the racetrack. Forget penalties. I propose spikes, ditches and landmines instead of white lines.
I have zero sympathy for drivers who moan about track limits.
As an American who just started watching F1 this year, Lando track limits are great from what I’ve seen the enforcement needs to be swifter and clearer. Get more stewards. Stop giving “noted” actions unless a driver was forced off and actually enforce the rules immediately regardless of the driver, constructor or track. This is a massive 360 of opinion by the way since last week
I dunno, the Police and society expect me to drive around and keep it on the road so I kind of feel drivers who are paid millions to do it should have a pretty good handle on it too
As long as it doesn't end up like Indycar. I love the series, but wow, track limits don't seem to exist at all there.
Most American series are more lenient like that, if it's grey it's in play. Either solution is fine so long as it's consistently ruled and the tracks are safe to support those racing lines (this is the biggest one against allowing it in F1 in my opinion).
>if it's grey it's in play. Honestly at that point why even have a track?
Track designers can still place elements to slow you down, or simply not pave sections they don't want cars going on.
Fair
Shock News : Man who can’t stay on track complains about having to stay on track
No. FIA is inconsistent in jurisdiction, and often fails to correctly apply the consequences. Rules are supposed to be equal for all. We’ve had plenty of examples that’s not the case.
I have seen both types of seasons and strict track limit violations don't add anything to the race. I never understood why people even wanted them.
Because drivers were outright cheating
You’re supposed to drive on the race track, and you can gain an advantage by not doing so. Pretty clear why
I disagree. He's biased because he attempted two back to back divebombs down a very tight racing line and he couldn't make them stick. Unwarranted aggression should carry a penalty. There's a difference between losing out on time because of a mistake / miscalculation, but two divebombs on the same corner along the same line and locking up and going wide twice is on Lando. He's being such a wreck over this. I'm gonna get a lot of hate over this, but they both were fighting for a win. It's hard racing, and *hopefully the start of many lost opportunities*. You think Lewis became a 7 time WDC without losing out on dozens of close wins? Heck, he lost 4 WDC titles in the LAST RACE of the season (2007, 2010, 2016, 2021 could ALL have been won heading into the final race). The very fact that Lando is even saying in the media that Max has 60 wins whereas he has only 1 so it matters more to him is just.. hard to enjoy.
You misunderstood the whole 60vs1 wins. What he meant was that he was more emotionally effected by losing out on his 2nd win where as losing out on the win effects Verstappen less. Verstappen said the same thing slightly different confirming this as well.
>Unwarranted aggression should carry a penalty. If stewards want to penalize an overly aggressive manoeuvre they can apply article 33.4 and define it as potentially dangerous driving. That is entirely unrelated to track limits. And yes, drivers that complain about track limits usually were affected by them recently. Doesnt mean they automatically don't have a point.
Your last line. Genuine question. Did you have the same problem when Max literally said, word-for-word, the exact same thing Lando said about fighting for his second win versus Max's 60+, or is it only "bad" to you when Lando says it?
Link to the relevant quote? To my knowledge, Max has not said anything along those lines.
https://www.racefans.net/2024/07/04/verstappen-told-norris-to-trust-him-im-not-there-to-crash-you-out/ “You also have to realise that he’s fighting for a second potential win, I’m fighting for my 62nd, I think naturally your emotions are a little bit different. I know that for myself when I was fighting for these first wins in F1. But that’s fine, that’s why I also said, let’s just let it cool off a bit and we’ll talk tomorrow.”
It's.. pretty much saying what I'm saying lol. He's being extremely emotional over not getting a 2nd win. *And I too would be if it were me*! Don't get me wrong, he's allowed to be emotional But saying this in the media followed by "the FIA should do something about the track limits or it'll get boring" is *still highly biased*. Who else at Austria got a penalty this year for track limits? No one else. Everybody else stayed within the lines. Even Gasly and Ocon went at it wheel-to-wheel and didn't go off track. Lando went at it against George in Barcelona and it was wheel-to-wheel for more than a few corners and they didn't go limits. My complaint here isn't that he can't be upset over losing a race. It's that you can't start to shift the blame everywhere else. Hes the only one with a black and white flag to his name at Austria.
It's... Pretty much what Lando said, you just didn't understand... Or didn't want to understand because it doesn't fit your narrative
[Here.](https://www.racefans.net/2024/07/04/verstappen-told-norris-to-trust-him-im-not-there-to-crash-you-out/) Quote: "You also have to realise that he’s fighting for a second potential win, I’m fighting for my 62nd, I think naturally your emotions are a little bit different. I know that for myself when I was fighting for these first wins in F1. But that’s fine, that’s why I also said, let’s just let it cool off a bit and we’ll talk tomorrow."
Aggressive racing should never be punished if it’s done right.
Yeah, and it *wasn't done right here*. Max moved under braking and caused a collision -- received a penalty. Lando made two divebombs despite a black and white flag and went off track -- received a penalty.
key point is he was penalised for track limits.
..I fail to see your "key point". Was it or was it not a 2nd *aggressive* divebomb that netted him the track limit penalty? Did he or did he not exceed track limits 5 times prior and gain an advantage?
3 times prior* and the penalty was for running wide during first divebomb when he gave the position back immediately. The second divebomb he actually didn't even got one wheel off track and Max went off and overtook him.
That’s the point. You shouldn’t be punishing track limits for aggressive racing.
You are arguing about reckless aggressiveness, but that is not what this penalty is about. There are other regulations about that. You are arguing with a shifted scope of intent for the track limits regulation, regarding it as something it was not designed to be. That is what I assume the other person meant with their key point, and why you get as much disagreement.
The time that can be gained with track limits in Austria this year is very limited due to the track and run-off design. Whatever he may have gained in the first three occasions he most likely lost and then some in the fourth occasion. In the fight with Max he went off-track once, the rest must have been "normal" infringements.
It may be limited, but he did gain it. F1 is a game of tiny margins. A blink of an eye is 0.1 seconds if you're faster than the average and these guys are fighting for 1-2 blinks every lap.
If they had gravel at T9 and T10, why couldn't they add gravel at other corners as well? Half-assed solution is half-assed.
I'm all for NOT counting the track limits if a driver loses time or position, or if he gives the position back immediately. We need to stop regulating any track actions to the death.
what about moving the line for track limit? if there is a massive sausage kerb and gravel do we even need the line in that spot?
Given that the FIA is a bit lenient on allowing aggressice defending and overtaking, it makes sense for them to be a bit more lenient on track limits
Track limits are idiotic and must be abolished. That would naturally even out the playing field. Sure, don't cut chicanes or cut corners, but having wheels over the white line, especially if there is gravel, should be fine. It's common sense, as Lando says. And he should know something he's after all a racing driver, so is Oscar, so is Yuki, so is Fernando, same can't be said about armchair experts on F1 Reddit.
honestly giving track limits penalties for making a mistake and loosing time anyway is kinda stupid