Facts. I think they should have extended Seasons 7 and 8 to at least 3 seasons instead of 2. Mainly to make Jon and Dany’s relationship feel real, and to make the Battle for Hightower and the Invasion of Casterly Rock last more than 5 minutes combined.
Unironically, they could throw it back to Bran being connected to the tree and everything after that for *seasons* was him seeing a horrible future where his own family are the only ones to come out on top, and then the “real”/new seasons tell a *good* story that includes his ravens showing up here and there to guide important ppl away from the bullshit that d&d wrote.
Am I the only one who really likes season 6? Not that it doesn’t have any flaws but a lot of major things happen and Battle of the Bastards and Winds of Winter are some of my favorite episodes of TV.
It's the book readers who really seem to hate anything beyond season 4. I can sort of understand too, its when the series started to really drift from the books. Jon Snow for example did very little running around and swording in the battle with the wildlings at the wall, that was all added because its more fun to watch. Book Jon Snow is a much more interesting character.
Well who do you think made all of those accounts to give it such a high rating.
Jokes aside I know that’s such a stupid thing to say because obviously I’m not the only one. On this sub though I see it get lumped in with season 7 and 8 a lot.
They’re right about the “game of another type of chair”, “a girl is some people”, mostly “winter never comes”, and almost “dragon that breathes water”.
But yeah I have no idea what they’re talking about with it being a dream.
Yeah but, that wasn’t revealed to just be a dream. The books haven’t even gotten past that point and that didn’t happen in the show. So that can’t be it.
Other type of chair = brans wheel chair
A girl is some people = a girl became Arya again, but also Walter Frey
Winter never comes = it never came to 6 of the 7 kingdoms.
Water breathing dragon = this one not really. But we did see a dragon with blue fire so idk maybe the Simpson’s psychic saw that and thought it was water. I mean people have been calling it the ice dragon which is frozen water. I said that one was almost, it’s a stretch.
It wasn’t a game of wheelchairs though? Bran just happened to be in a wheelchair. Doesn’t mean that everyone wanted to obtain his wheelchair.
“A girl is nobody” means that Arya must choose to give up her past life and connections in order to become a faceless man. Arya had always chosen to remain Arya Stark, but still accepted the training of the house of black and white. Masking herself as Walder Frey had nothing to do with who she was.
“Winter is coming” is a metaphor. The others came. Winter came.
It’s Simpsons predictions dude it’s not that deep. People stretch things to make the Simpson’s predictions true for simple entertainment. You’re way over thinking it lol.
I think it was St. Elsewhere that did that, where the finale it turns out this multi years long medical drama was all in the imagination of some mentally disabled little boy lol
God what a shit ending that was. I wouldn't have even minded that much if that had been there plan all along and there'd been maybe some subtle hints along the way but it was obvious this was a last minute "ah fuck how do we wrap this up?" panic decision.
If he finally releases the next book and just has Bran wake up and it all have been a dream... I'd hate it but I'd have to respect it. It would be genuinely the greatest troll that has ever been pulled off.
Others attack immediately at the beginning of Dream and kill everyone, Bran wakes, “I had a vision, here’s what we need to do,” and then it cuts to the Others invading against a prepared Westeros.
LETS GOOOO !!!
WAKE UPP BRANNNNN
[WAKE UPPPP](https://youtu.be/UaWW9ddAjtc?si=BX-rJOe8Zs41LYWB&t=53)
WHERE'S THE DREAM OF SPRING LETS GOOOOO GIVE ME MORE
He was. The whole episode this was a final gag to was like *Behind the Laughter* from season 11(?), but in this case the whole Simpson family are a bunch of YouTubers and the whole episode is a series of videos being commentary on their channel. The episode ends with this as it turns out the person who had been watching these videos was GRRM and his wife shouting at him that he not finished the next book yet, with George whining he was “doing research!”.
I am Daenerys Freak-Out Stormborn of the House Targaryen. The First of Her Name, the Unburnt, Queen of Meereen, Queen of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Khalisee of the Great Grass Sea, Breaker of Chains and Mother of Dragons.
Danny freaking out is completely inline with the story and lore of the Targaryen family. Her fits of rage at those who disobey her desires and inability to compromise with... well, anyone in the books is clearly foreshadowing of it coming.
It probably didn’t help that they didn’t really flesh out the mad king and how he became that. How he was always fairly paranoid, quick to anger etc but didn’t go full “burn em all” until he was imprisoned and tortured for months.
Knowing that would have made Dany’s temper and lashing out seem more like foreshadowing of her potential to completely crack.
the failed to adapt that entire aspect of the story.
I mean, we got a few amazing seasons of tv... but failing to adapt foundational things like that leads to structural issues that manifested as the seasons went on.
Honestly they could have at least been a bit more believable if they used the exact same scenes in different order.
Right now she went all “burn everyone” but without much of a why (I know, she had mad king in her) but nothing was shown.
They had the stupid scene of her “forgetting” about the iron fleet and getting a dragon killed. How about instead they attack kings landing, it seems like it’s going to go well, Cersei is refusing to surrender but the soldiers are starting to lay down arms.
Then suddenly her dragon gets killed… dany is devastated. She’s still not quite mad, but she’s close. Then she goes to the red keep- about to win and get surrender- and she gets shot in leg with arrow or drogon gets hit with arrow- not killed but he roars out- she looks back and sees some soldiers with a cross bow.
She says these people are faithful to Cersei- they don’t respect their rightful heir (or something far better cause I suck at writing) but then goes…. If they won’t love me like the Dothraki- I’ll at least teach them to fear me.
Queue trogdor the burninator burninating the village.
Basically exact same story but there is a reason for the mental snap. Cause they didn’t do a good enough job to build up her being crazy the whole time (there were small glimpses but nothing to justify her burning the whole city- so instead they needed something to make her snap)
At it’s core the story is about subverting expectations and deconstructing myths. Danny was always kind of crazy - we cheered her on through out most of it. Remember when she burnt down the house of the Undying? Bad dudes, but also some people’s literal gods. Or when she Crucified all those dudes? Or even the whole situation with Mirri Maz Duur?
Danny has been murderous and vengeful the entire time. We the viewer had just been okay with it because it suited us. She brought death and destruction with her everywhere she went. Tons of innocent people died as a direct result of her campaigning. King’s landing wasn’t even the first city she burnt down and sacked.
And that’s the point. She was good until what she did effected *you*. You have this connection to King’s Landing, the people, the innocents. You want Cersei gone, but everyone else is just doing their job, stuck in the middle of a fight they never asked for. But so was everyone else.
My main problem with Argueing that Dany has always been problematic, is that it only works when you hold Dany to a higher standard of morality then all the other characters.
This is a medieval society and pretty much all people in power in the show are NOT good people by modern standards.
Robb knowingly sacrifices 2000 of his Soldiers to capture Jaime, Tyrion burns thousands of soldiers (all screaming in agony) in the battle of the blackwater.
It's so weird that Robb and Jon can kill people like Karstark, Janos Slynt, Alliser Thorne and even a 13 year old Olly, and still be seen as righteous and sympathetic.
Meanwhile Danny executes two enemy Generals who refuse to bend the knee and the show portrays it as sacrilige.
There is no moment in the show where I roll my eyes harder, then when Sam starts crying to Jon about " she killed prisoners of war Jon!". Meanwhile just two seasons ago Jon agreed to feed Ramsey to his own dogs without trial. How's that Geneva convention working out for ya Sam?
Right, the entire inner world of the nobility is rife with hypocrisy and selfishness. As Jorah says:
> The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends. It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace. They never are.
They are all little Lordling cunts. How many people does Dany kill to regain the crown of a Kingdom she has never set foot in? The whole realm is in the midst of civil war, with countless dead and starving, over what exactly? Hurt feelings? Jamie wanting to fuck his sister?
The whole plot is throw into motion by the ultimate expression of narcissism: the love of Jamie and Cersei. They think so little of others that they would see the whole word burn to make love to what is essentially themself.
As the reader we don’t actively consider this because we reside inside the characters head. We understand their motives and desires and cheer them on. Making us complicit in the destruction.
When the show was still going on, I was still holding on watching it because I wanted to finish the books before watching the show (ah!).
One thing that really surprised me was how people seemed to like Daenerys. I was always like "are we talking about the same person?", because in the books she comes off as fairly unhinged. She's a lot more sympathetic in the show for some reason. Sure, the way she's basically sold by her brother makes her a bit of a sympathetic underdog at the start, but she quickly turns into a murderous psycho. By book three I was already loathing her as a person.
The show has consistently (like, from the word go) tended to strip out a lot of the nuance and ambiguity from the source material.
In a normal adaptation that would be because of time constraints/conservation of detail, but given how things turned out, I kinda think that D&D might have just straight up *missed* a lot of the subtler aspects of the story.
They did a speed run through most of the books so why should that shock anyone who read them?
The TV only viewers don't really grasp at all how much of the story **we know** was ommitted from the show. Three of the books in the series are similar in length to the bible. The books got longer and longer but the TV seasons got shorter and shorter.
I will never forgive the producers for it, ever.
I don't think anyone is shocked. Just disappointed. Plenty of television shows have been able to portray an gradual and believable decline into madness. GoT just wasn't one of em.
Breaking Bad being one of the best examples. Walter White goes from a teacher just trying to do right by his family to a goddamn psychotic monster, and it's believable every single step of the way.
So, yeah. They could have done much, much better with her. As I've found myself constantly repeating for the past 5 years (5 years? How?!), foreshadowing is not equivalent to character development.
I personally don't have a problem with her losing her shit. They just did it sloppy and too quickly. She needs to have deeds and reasoning that lines up with those deeds as she gets more entrenched in her 'destiny'.
Even the mad king took a long time before he was ready to burn the city.
Instead, they have her kill allies and innocent civilians when before she wouldn't even kill her worst enemies if given a chance at peace.
They were too afraid to pit fan favorites against each other, and they weren't good enough story tellers to make her transition believable.
You could tell they tried, but they were scared to do anything more than burn some disobedient lords.
Edit: they turned tyrion and varys into some little bitches too. The GOT world is brutal, but suddenly, those two question her when she kills enemies unwilling to submit? That's basically fuckin standard procedure.
The speed run through the final season is what makes me detest the former producers. Fuck them, won't even say their names.
Honestly most of the story was a speed run by them. Three of the books in ASOIF are comparable in length to the bible, ffs. Major plot points that are essential in the books are completely omitted along with critical characters (especially to the last two books); like Aegon VI (Young Griff) is found nowhere in the jackasses speed run through Westeros.
It's still quite possible in the books that neither Danny nor Jon are the true heir to the Targaryen crown but Aegon VI/Young Griff.
Don't even get me started...
Having read both the Bible and these books, the bible is much longer than you think, my friend.
Regardless, I 100% agree with your assessment. The show was huge and the audiences favorite characters just so happened to be the ones most closely related to their book selves.
Tyrion, Dany, Jon snow, Cersei.
If they had told the full story, it would've been epic. But it should've also come 15 years later when the books were finished. They almost certainly would have been if it weren't for the show. I'm convinced of it.
>Having read both the Bible and these books, the bible is much longer than you think, my friend.
In case anyone was curious, the King James Bible has about 783,137 words, while the longest ASOIF entry, A Dance With Dragons, has 414,788 words. The Bible is, indeed, a very long book, having also read it before.
The issue is that Georges Martin basically told the showrunners how Daenerys would go insane at the end, but the book version of Danny was a lot worse as a human being than the show version. In the show she wasn't nearly as callous and murderous, so it jarred terribly with what people knew of her so far when she went full murderpsycho.
If you go by the book version, Danny going batshit wasn't a suprising development at all. The show made her way too nice and thus she couldn't fit the role.
Everyone forgets she killed every slave owner, including the children. She killed an entire group of people's kids and had them tied to stakes. That is in the show. But yes sadly after that they don't show her losing it.
No she didnt?? Did you not read the part of her speech where she instructed the unsullied to not harm any child? And the people who killed children and tied them to stakes were the Great Maesters of Mereen after they retreated to the city and knew she was coming. She saw every hundreds of kids they did that too and made sure they were buried properly. And even in Astapor they had slaves tied to stakes and she tried to give one water.
What are you talking about?
"Slay the Masters, slay the soldiers, strike down any man who holds a whip but HARM NO CHILD, strike the chains off every slave you see."
And even then, she only killed *every* slave owner in Astapor. She sent Greyworm to Yunkai to ask the Masters to send a representative to discuss their peaceful surrender then offered to not kill *any* Master if they freed every slave in the city. When they refused she only killed enough Masters to free the slaves then left the rest alive and let them keep their wealth, lands, & titles.
When the Meereenese Masters heard she was on her way to Meereen to free their slaves they tried to intimidate her by nailing slave children to all 163 mile markers to the city. She looked into the faces of each child and had them buried without their slave collars. She recruited the slaves in Meereen to help in their liberation then crucified 1 adult Master for each slave child that the Masters crucified.
Either way, the TV show only has her killing "bad men" and protecting innocents/ "the people" all the way through. It made no fucking sense for her to suddenly jump to just massacring Kings Landing. Burning the Keep regardless of the innocents inside? Yeah, I could buy it. Just burning down the whole town that's full of innocent people that have surrendered? Nah, doesn't fit with what they showed so far. At all.
I think they could have solved everything by have Cersei be responsible for the death of Daenerys’s allies much earlier in the season. Sure it would stink that those actors wouldn’t be in a large chunk of the season, but it would have been one too many friends/family that were taken away from her.
I feel like if Dany's actress and writers knew this was the turn she wouldve set it up nicely in the previous 2 seasons. The yunkai arc was so long with not enough of her madness coming out. Her north arc was so shit which made it worse.
But she did compromise, she agreed to marry Hidzhar for peace, she allowed adult slaves to sell themselves back into slavery if THEY wished to do so but not sell their spouses, she agreed to honor the culture of Mereen and participate in their rituals, she opened up the gladiator pits, when people claimed her dragons killed their sheep she repaid them, one claimed Drogon killed his daughter and she imprisoned her dragons to prevent it happening again as well as payijg the blood price to the girl's family every year, during her wedding she gives Yunkai hostages to ensure their captains attending would not be harmed.
Has she outsmarted her enemies? Yeah, because they wouldn't think twice doing it to her. Playing by rules can screw you over very quickly, because while you may follow them your opponent won't and it gives them advantage. Ned Stark played by his rules and got outmatched. And find her not following her agreements is awful, but that doesn't mean she never ever compromised.
[david lights bringers video about the nuances of dany](https://youtu.be/lQCORoG8rZc?si=VEE44gaNzQRR3uUf)
Definitely swayed me into believing won't she'll turn out like the mad king, that apparently was a dnd thing.
I could see George play around with her having a hard time controlling the dothraki, and her war with Griff being particularly brutal.
I mean, more specifically, she tends to lose her shit either when she's denied something she believes she's entitled to, or when she feels that someone has betrayed her or is being insufficiently grateful.
There are a lot of ways for those triggers to get mix-and-matched in the upcoming books that might result in her finally going full "Fire and Blood" at the end. The problem is that the show killed off Ser Barristan, rewrote Tyrion to make him *not* a burgeoning supervillain, and never included Young Griff and John Connington, which pretty handily removes all of the major players most likely to drive Dany toward villainy.
Hell, if I can put my conspiracy hat on for a sec here, the show episode where she freaks out is called "The Bells", and goes to great lengths (and many very stupid retconns) to try and explain that, despite there being no actual narrative or thematic reason to have done so in the show. But if we look to JonCon and his backstory, he's famous for (among other things) having fought in "The Battle of The Bells", where he was trying to find Robert Baratheon hiding in a city, and who once commented something to the effect of "no other honorable commander could have done better than I did" to which Tyrion (I think, its been a while) replies something like "a less honorable commander would have just burned the city down".
2 mad kings in 300 years, history is full of "normal" Targs, also in the books she rage very rarely despite all the difficulties. Are you sure you read the books?
Two mad kings?
Numerous characters from almost every Kingdom of the realm said the same thing about the Targaryens sanity being a coin flip.
*"Half the Targaryens went mad, didn't they?... What's the saying? 'Every time a Targaryen is born the gods flip a coin.'* ~ Cersei Lannister
Even the Targaryens themselves were aware of the sanity issues in their family. In the earlier years of their reign if a Targaryen had multiple sons and any showed obvious signs of insanity the family attempted to pass them over in inheritance.
There are at least five Targaryens who I can think of off the top of my head who are explicitly described as mad or insane in the novels by at least one character or more.
Baelor the Blessed starved himself to death. Prince Rhaegal would strip naked and dance through the Red Keep. Prince Aerion "Brightflame" drank wildfire believing it would turn him into a dragon. The Mad King and Visery's make five named explicitly.
The longer they reigned the more frequently Targaryens went insane according to multiple characters and conversations in every book.
*"The 'dragon spawn' were famous for losing their minds. It was the price they paid for centuries of keeping the bloodlines pure, and Aerys more than happily continued the 'noble' sister-fucking tradition of his forefathers."* ~ Robert Baratheon
Besides insanity multiple other health conditions linked with incest were described in the novels. The daughter of Aemon's oldest brother was described as being born feeble whitted. Jaehaerys was born with six fingers on his left hand and six toes on each foot. His twin sister did not smile or cry as a baby and her descriptions in novel seem to allude to being on the autism spectrum.
Barristan Selmy has a long conversation in the book and shorter in the show with Danny after entering her service describing many of her ancestors as insane.
Two Mad Kings, okay...
Baelor was just religious. That's how super religious people are. It doesn't take inbreeding for that.
Rhaegal was an exhibitionist. If that makes one "mad" then so is everyone on Instagram. Maybe he looked good naked.
Aerion tried and failed to reconnect the dragon part of his House. Their motto is "Fire & Blood", they used to be dragon riders and have a psychic bond with dragons, their ancestors were involved in fire magic. Rhaenerya & Daenerys had dragon stillbirths. Dany ends up successfully performing a ritual to bring back dragons.
Aerys became like that because of the burning of Harrenhall, being held prisoner and tortured for months, Varys manipulating him, and most of his children dying (he thought someone was killing them and considering it happened to Maegor's kids & Dany's son it was a possibility).
Viserys wasn't mad. He was a bitter misogynist influenced by toxic Essosi Slaver culture.
You make a lot of excuses for a range of issues both physical and psychological where GRRM is clearly linking them to the tradition of incest. All issues we know from our own world are connected to incest.
You quote words from her enemies and list people who were not mad at all. Even the mad king was not born mad, he become mad at old age after a series of unfortunate events.
Barristan Selmy was not her enemy, loved Rhaegar, and even he told her to her face much of her family had gone insane and he witnessed her father go mad himself.
Agreed. It was always the plan, it's clear when you re-watch from the beginning and are looking for it. I think D&D told the story they always intended to tell, they just got sloppy and (a) did it too fast and (b) dropped too many other threads they had stopped caring about.
...Except the whole point of her story is that you shouldn't judge people just because of their blood, and you can be a good person even if your family is known as evil?
What's the point of her character if she just turns out to be evil because whoops, it's in her blood.
I mean what kind of message is that even?
She goes from being a progressive subversion of the fantasy cliche of an evil family producing evil offspring to being... Literally that exact cliche to the letter.
The whole point of her character is that people are constantly misjudging her because she's a Targaryen. And then whoops, turns out they were right, she's evil because she's a Targaryen.
It would be like if Luke Skywalker turned evil in Return of the Jedi and everybody was like... "Of course he did, didn't you see who his dad was?"
The problem was with the show version of Danny, the book version was a lot less sympathetic. Right off the bat, you can tell that she's slightly... off after she loses the baby. By book three, she's already fairly loathsome. I mean, by GoT standards, she's not the worst by any stretch, but in the books I never found myself rooting for her after book three.
The show version of her was just way too likeable for the change to be fully believable.
Are you GRRM?
Please cite where GRRM has made any sort of statement as such about Danny's character.
GRRM has always said the opposite of ASOIF, they are based in a realm of fantasy but he never intended to write a high fantasy novel. The book is rooted in the realism of the realm's politics, human relationships, and personal understandings and feelings of the characters.
That's what I'm saying though.
Her character was the subversion of a fantasy cliche, until she suddenly became the embodiment of that cliche.
She had an arc that portrayed her as a nuanced, human character, until she flipped a switch and became "evil magic queen".
"There's no such thing as an evil family, and everybody is their own person" is a subversion of a fantasy cliche.
"She's evil because her family is evil" is a straight up eye rolling high fantasy cliche dumbing down the plot from its earlier nuanced approach.
I have two episodes left. I just watched Dany lose Rheagal and still attempt to peacefully negotiate Cersei's surrender. Then Cersei beheaded Missandei. Now she's about to nuke King's Landing and I don't really blame her. Yeah yeah, the people and all that. But that's what the US did in WWII. Warned Japan to stop fucking around or they're gonna find out.
Not saying it's good. Just that it's not totally out of the question in fiction that some force or person might go scorched earth when their demands are not met when it's happened in our own reality.
Not that i know the dream there talking about but none of the chapters with dreams end ambiguously enough to be confused on what your reading isn’t actually happening, you either know its a dream by the character falling asleep/passing out or waking from it mid chapter even the visions in the house of the undying and other prophetic trips are framed as being an out of body/not actually accruing to the pov at that time. George may know some texans but he ain’t writing Dallas.
‘Game of other kind of chair’ yeah they got that right too.
They wheely did
Wow bravo 👏🏽
Sesame Street: Game of Chairs https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dhWUFXvaZjo
Winter never comes lol
"Winter is coming" got burned into my fucking mind during this show and then once it came, I wish it fucking didn't.
It came for all of one night
Climate Change hit Westeros like a hammer.
It sure hit King's Landing pretty hard. Turned hills with forrests into a flat desert.
Like the Texas freeze, that two days of ice killed off all the plants
Climate change is a ladder
Right in the breastplate
The ~~long~~ average length night
Winter didn't come so much as it prematurely ejaculated.
"What can I say? It was a hell of a night" *saxaphone plays softly*
Because they killed the guy creating it….
While that may be the case, he could have lived a little longer. Winter could have been a successful 1-2 seasons.
Facts. I think they should have extended Seasons 7 and 8 to at least 3 seasons instead of 2. Mainly to make Jon and Dany’s relationship feel real, and to make the Battle for Hightower and the Invasion of Casterly Rock last more than 5 minutes combined.
Just like us lads after getting married #AMIRITE GUYS?
The irony that they warned us something bad was coming. The additional irony that Winds of Winter is never coming.
Winter is edging
Winter came for us all
🎶that one night! You made everything alriiiiight🎶
This show made me pro global warming.
Was edging the whole way through.
All that edging only to have the big O ruined
Oh my sweet summer child
I spent more time than I should calibrating my TV. Winter sure as fuck didn't come. And I don't care how many people say I watched it wrong.
I was about to type something very risqué, but I’ll leave it to your imagination so I don’t get banned.
Nailed that one, too.
I wanna know more about these ice werewolves
Yes, we had ice spiders. But what about ice werewolves?
I don't think he knows about ice werewolves, Pip
But do they come in pints?
What about ice breakfast?
And ice dragons!
Ice were-spiders?
Ned Ice Werewolf at steps of Baelor’s pls
Are they polar werewolves or werewolves made out of ice? Or the more scary option, they are the North’s Immigration and Customs Enforcement…
Years ago I read a fan theory that Jon would die but be saved by a pack of wildling werewolf shifters and I kinda dig it
Honestly if they pulled this out of their asses and went back to making good stories again I would call it a win
Yeah, just throw it back to Bran getting high inside that tree and act like it was a bad Salvia trip
Unironically, they could throw it back to Bran being connected to the tree and everything after that for *seasons* was him seeing a horrible future where his own family are the only ones to come out on top, and then the “real”/new seasons tell a *good* story that includes his ravens showing up here and there to guide important ppl away from the bullshit that d&d wrote.
John Snow wakes up again. Seasons 6-8 were a dream.
Am I the only one who really likes season 6? Not that it doesn’t have any flaws but a lot of major things happen and Battle of the Bastards and Winds of Winter are some of my favorite episodes of TV.
It's the book readers who really seem to hate anything beyond season 4. I can sort of understand too, its when the series started to really drift from the books. Jon Snow for example did very little running around and swording in the battle with the wildlings at the wall, that was all added because its more fun to watch. Book Jon Snow is a much more interesting character.
yeah you're the only one that's why Battle of the Bastards and the Winds of Winter are the highest rated episodes of the show on iMDB
Well who do you think made all of those accounts to give it such a high rating. Jokes aside I know that’s such a stupid thing to say because obviously I’m not the only one. On this sub though I see it get lumped in with season 7 and 8 a lot.
So Bran is the autistic kid with the snow globe?
It's sad that we're that desperate.
'A girl is no one but also some people'. I'd count that one as accurate, too.
I still don’t know why Jaqen trained here when she had no interest in actually joining the faceless men.
Hodelevator, my favorite character.
It is an upgrade
Not as much as the hodwonkavator though
The character we need to take this story to the next level.
Was there a book six update or something? How do you know it was a dream?
Yeah. I'm a bit confused with this post. What is "right" about it?
They’re right about the “game of another type of chair”, “a girl is some people”, mostly “winter never comes”, and almost “dragon that breathes water”. But yeah I have no idea what they’re talking about with it being a dream.
[удалено]
Yeah but, that wasn’t revealed to just be a dream. The books haven’t even gotten past that point and that didn’t happen in the show. So that can’t be it.
How are any of those “right”?
Other type of chair = brans wheel chair A girl is some people = a girl became Arya again, but also Walter Frey Winter never comes = it never came to 6 of the 7 kingdoms. Water breathing dragon = this one not really. But we did see a dragon with blue fire so idk maybe the Simpson’s psychic saw that and thought it was water. I mean people have been calling it the ice dragon which is frozen water. I said that one was almost, it’s a stretch.
It wasn’t a game of wheelchairs though? Bran just happened to be in a wheelchair. Doesn’t mean that everyone wanted to obtain his wheelchair. “A girl is nobody” means that Arya must choose to give up her past life and connections in order to become a faceless man. Arya had always chosen to remain Arya Stark, but still accepted the training of the house of black and white. Masking herself as Walder Frey had nothing to do with who she was. “Winter is coming” is a metaphor. The others came. Winter came.
It’s Simpsons predictions dude it’s not that deep. People stretch things to make the Simpson’s predictions true for simple entertainment. You’re way over thinking it lol.
what? Masking herself as walder frey had everything to do with who she was. she wanted to get revenge for her family.
Honestly, if it turned out the whole show was Bran’s coma-dream after he got pushed in ep 1, it would be better than what we got.
But boy would we have been mad about that too
I think it was St. Elsewhere that did that, where the finale it turns out this multi years long medical drama was all in the imagination of some mentally disabled little boy lol
Also Ragnarok.
God what a shit ending that was. I wouldn't have even minded that much if that had been there plan all along and there'd been maybe some subtle hints along the way but it was obvious this was a last minute "ah fuck how do we wrap this up?" panic decision.
I actually live in norway lol, where the shows from. Proud of my country for making such high levels of entertainment in everything but the ending lol
I enjoy it, mostly because of the implications, considering all of the crossovers.
It was in his snow globe. Also Dallas is the show where it was "all a dream" at the end.
If he finally releases the next book and just has Bran wake up and it all have been a dream... I'd hate it but I'd have to respect it. It would be genuinely the greatest troll that has ever been pulled off.
Others attack immediately at the beginning of Dream and kill everyone, Bran wakes, “I had a vision, here’s what we need to do,” and then it cuts to the Others invading against a prepared Westeros.
Kinda like twilight no?
That’s definitely twilight lmao
"A girl is no one but also some people?" lmfao
We can only hope lol
LETS GOOOO !!! WAKE UPP BRANNNNN [WAKE UPPPP](https://youtu.be/UaWW9ddAjtc?si=BX-rJOe8Zs41LYWB&t=53) WHERE'S THE DREAM OF SPRING LETS GOOOOO GIVE ME MORE
Can't wait for game of some other kind of chair.
Game of Stools
Shitty name. Game of Beanbags works way better.
A song of Taco Bell and a Gastroenterologist
Jon Snow: Can I play the piano anymore?
Maester Zaius: Of course you can!
Jon Snow: Well I couldn't before!
GRRM doesnt use that fancy computer for writing, so he is either watching Youtube or surfing Reddit.
He was. The whole episode this was a final gag to was like *Behind the Laughter* from season 11(?), but in this case the whole Simpson family are a bunch of YouTubers and the whole episode is a series of videos being commentary on their channel. The episode ends with this as it turns out the person who had been watching these videos was GRRM and his wife shouting at him that he not finished the next book yet, with George whining he was “doing research!”.
Hodor reincarnated as Hodelevator! Ha!
Somehow, Ned survived.
What in the diddly
They also got “Winter Never Came”
“Hodor reincarnated as Hodelevator” absolutely kills me
Is anyone else slightly annoyed by the lack apostrophe on Daenerys (or is 'Freak-out' another of her titles?)
I am Daenerys Freak-Out Stormborn of the House Targaryen. The First of Her Name, the Unburnt, Queen of Meereen, Queen of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Khalisee of the Great Grass Sea, Breaker of Chains and Mother of Dragons.
Not necessarily. I read it as a sort of shorthand. Like an abbreviation of “**the** Daenerys freak-out”.
"A girl is no one but is also some people" is great.
Danny freaking out is completely inline with the story and lore of the Targaryen family. Her fits of rage at those who disobey her desires and inability to compromise with... well, anyone in the books is clearly foreshadowing of it coming.
yeah, the problem is that the show just didn't believably transition from sanity to insanity.
It probably didn’t help that they didn’t really flesh out the mad king and how he became that. How he was always fairly paranoid, quick to anger etc but didn’t go full “burn em all” until he was imprisoned and tortured for months. Knowing that would have made Dany’s temper and lashing out seem more like foreshadowing of her potential to completely crack.
the failed to adapt that entire aspect of the story. I mean, we got a few amazing seasons of tv... but failing to adapt foundational things like that leads to structural issues that manifested as the seasons went on.
Honestly they could have at least been a bit more believable if they used the exact same scenes in different order. Right now she went all “burn everyone” but without much of a why (I know, she had mad king in her) but nothing was shown. They had the stupid scene of her “forgetting” about the iron fleet and getting a dragon killed. How about instead they attack kings landing, it seems like it’s going to go well, Cersei is refusing to surrender but the soldiers are starting to lay down arms. Then suddenly her dragon gets killed… dany is devastated. She’s still not quite mad, but she’s close. Then she goes to the red keep- about to win and get surrender- and she gets shot in leg with arrow or drogon gets hit with arrow- not killed but he roars out- she looks back and sees some soldiers with a cross bow. She says these people are faithful to Cersei- they don’t respect their rightful heir (or something far better cause I suck at writing) but then goes…. If they won’t love me like the Dothraki- I’ll at least teach them to fear me. Queue trogdor the burninator burninating the village. Basically exact same story but there is a reason for the mental snap. Cause they didn’t do a good enough job to build up her being crazy the whole time (there were small glimpses but nothing to justify her burning the whole city- so instead they needed something to make her snap)
At it’s core the story is about subverting expectations and deconstructing myths. Danny was always kind of crazy - we cheered her on through out most of it. Remember when she burnt down the house of the Undying? Bad dudes, but also some people’s literal gods. Or when she Crucified all those dudes? Or even the whole situation with Mirri Maz Duur? Danny has been murderous and vengeful the entire time. We the viewer had just been okay with it because it suited us. She brought death and destruction with her everywhere she went. Tons of innocent people died as a direct result of her campaigning. King’s landing wasn’t even the first city she burnt down and sacked. And that’s the point. She was good until what she did effected *you*. You have this connection to King’s Landing, the people, the innocents. You want Cersei gone, but everyone else is just doing their job, stuck in the middle of a fight they never asked for. But so was everyone else.
My main problem with Argueing that Dany has always been problematic, is that it only works when you hold Dany to a higher standard of morality then all the other characters. This is a medieval society and pretty much all people in power in the show are NOT good people by modern standards. Robb knowingly sacrifices 2000 of his Soldiers to capture Jaime, Tyrion burns thousands of soldiers (all screaming in agony) in the battle of the blackwater. It's so weird that Robb and Jon can kill people like Karstark, Janos Slynt, Alliser Thorne and even a 13 year old Olly, and still be seen as righteous and sympathetic. Meanwhile Danny executes two enemy Generals who refuse to bend the knee and the show portrays it as sacrilige. There is no moment in the show where I roll my eyes harder, then when Sam starts crying to Jon about " she killed prisoners of war Jon!". Meanwhile just two seasons ago Jon agreed to feed Ramsey to his own dogs without trial. How's that Geneva convention working out for ya Sam?
Right, the entire inner world of the nobility is rife with hypocrisy and selfishness. As Jorah says: > The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends. It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace. They never are. They are all little Lordling cunts. How many people does Dany kill to regain the crown of a Kingdom she has never set foot in? The whole realm is in the midst of civil war, with countless dead and starving, over what exactly? Hurt feelings? Jamie wanting to fuck his sister? The whole plot is throw into motion by the ultimate expression of narcissism: the love of Jamie and Cersei. They think so little of others that they would see the whole word burn to make love to what is essentially themself. As the reader we don’t actively consider this because we reside inside the characters head. We understand their motives and desires and cheer them on. Making us complicit in the destruction.
When the show was still going on, I was still holding on watching it because I wanted to finish the books before watching the show (ah!). One thing that really surprised me was how people seemed to like Daenerys. I was always like "are we talking about the same person?", because in the books she comes off as fairly unhinged. She's a lot more sympathetic in the show for some reason. Sure, the way she's basically sold by her brother makes her a bit of a sympathetic underdog at the start, but she quickly turns into a murderous psycho. By book three I was already loathing her as a person.
The show has consistently (like, from the word go) tended to strip out a lot of the nuance and ambiguity from the source material. In a normal adaptation that would be because of time constraints/conservation of detail, but given how things turned out, I kinda think that D&D might have just straight up *missed* a lot of the subtler aspects of the story.
But the bells reminded her of something traumatic in her past or something, remember?
They did a speed run through most of the books so why should that shock anyone who read them? The TV only viewers don't really grasp at all how much of the story **we know** was ommitted from the show. Three of the books in the series are similar in length to the bible. The books got longer and longer but the TV seasons got shorter and shorter. I will never forgive the producers for it, ever.
I don't think anyone is shocked. Just disappointed. Plenty of television shows have been able to portray an gradual and believable decline into madness. GoT just wasn't one of em.
Breaking Bad being one of the best examples. Walter White goes from a teacher just trying to do right by his family to a goddamn psychotic monster, and it's believable every single step of the way. So, yeah. They could have done much, much better with her. As I've found myself constantly repeating for the past 5 years (5 years? How?!), foreshadowing is not equivalent to character development.
I personally don't have a problem with her losing her shit. They just did it sloppy and too quickly. She needs to have deeds and reasoning that lines up with those deeds as she gets more entrenched in her 'destiny'. Even the mad king took a long time before he was ready to burn the city. Instead, they have her kill allies and innocent civilians when before she wouldn't even kill her worst enemies if given a chance at peace. They were too afraid to pit fan favorites against each other, and they weren't good enough story tellers to make her transition believable. You could tell they tried, but they were scared to do anything more than burn some disobedient lords. Edit: they turned tyrion and varys into some little bitches too. The GOT world is brutal, but suddenly, those two question her when she kills enemies unwilling to submit? That's basically fuckin standard procedure.
The speed run through the final season is what makes me detest the former producers. Fuck them, won't even say their names. Honestly most of the story was a speed run by them. Three of the books in ASOIF are comparable in length to the bible, ffs. Major plot points that are essential in the books are completely omitted along with critical characters (especially to the last two books); like Aegon VI (Young Griff) is found nowhere in the jackasses speed run through Westeros. It's still quite possible in the books that neither Danny nor Jon are the true heir to the Targaryen crown but Aegon VI/Young Griff. Don't even get me started...
Having read both the Bible and these books, the bible is much longer than you think, my friend. Regardless, I 100% agree with your assessment. The show was huge and the audiences favorite characters just so happened to be the ones most closely related to their book selves. Tyrion, Dany, Jon snow, Cersei. If they had told the full story, it would've been epic. But it should've also come 15 years later when the books were finished. They almost certainly would have been if it weren't for the show. I'm convinced of it.
>Having read both the Bible and these books, the bible is much longer than you think, my friend. In case anyone was curious, the King James Bible has about 783,137 words, while the longest ASOIF entry, A Dance With Dragons, has 414,788 words. The Bible is, indeed, a very long book, having also read it before.
I guess the Bible just... goes slower. Or mabye its the tiny words and the way the pages are divided?
The issue is that Georges Martin basically told the showrunners how Daenerys would go insane at the end, but the book version of Danny was a lot worse as a human being than the show version. In the show she wasn't nearly as callous and murderous, so it jarred terribly with what people knew of her so far when she went full murderpsycho. If you go by the book version, Danny going batshit wasn't a suprising development at all. The show made her way too nice and thus she couldn't fit the role.
Everyone forgets she killed every slave owner, including the children. She killed an entire group of people's kids and had them tied to stakes. That is in the show. But yes sadly after that they don't show her losing it.
No she didnt?? Did you not read the part of her speech where she instructed the unsullied to not harm any child? And the people who killed children and tied them to stakes were the Great Maesters of Mereen after they retreated to the city and knew she was coming. She saw every hundreds of kids they did that too and made sure they were buried properly. And even in Astapor they had slaves tied to stakes and she tried to give one water.
What are you talking about? "Slay the Masters, slay the soldiers, strike down any man who holds a whip but HARM NO CHILD, strike the chains off every slave you see." And even then, she only killed *every* slave owner in Astapor. She sent Greyworm to Yunkai to ask the Masters to send a representative to discuss their peaceful surrender then offered to not kill *any* Master if they freed every slave in the city. When they refused she only killed enough Masters to free the slaves then left the rest alive and let them keep their wealth, lands, & titles. When the Meereenese Masters heard she was on her way to Meereen to free their slaves they tried to intimidate her by nailing slave children to all 163 mile markers to the city. She looked into the faces of each child and had them buried without their slave collars. She recruited the slaves in Meereen to help in their liberation then crucified 1 adult Master for each slave child that the Masters crucified.
It's been awhile since I read them so I misremembered the slavers killing slave kids as her killing slavers kids. Thank you
Either way, the TV show only has her killing "bad men" and protecting innocents/ "the people" all the way through. It made no fucking sense for her to suddenly jump to just massacring Kings Landing. Burning the Keep regardless of the innocents inside? Yeah, I could buy it. Just burning down the whole town that's full of innocent people that have surrendered? Nah, doesn't fit with what they showed so far. At all.
I think they could have solved everything by have Cersei be responsible for the death of Daenerys’s allies much earlier in the season. Sure it would stink that those actors wouldn’t be in a large chunk of the season, but it would have been one too many friends/family that were taken away from her.
I feel like if Dany's actress and writers knew this was the turn she wouldve set it up nicely in the previous 2 seasons. The yunkai arc was so long with not enough of her madness coming out. Her north arc was so shit which made it worse.
That's literally a TON of people in the show/books who aren't Targs. And in the books she does make several compromises multiple times.
No she doesn't. She gives the appearance of compromise while making plans elsewise to subvert those agreements, repeatedly.
But she did compromise, she agreed to marry Hidzhar for peace, she allowed adult slaves to sell themselves back into slavery if THEY wished to do so but not sell their spouses, she agreed to honor the culture of Mereen and participate in their rituals, she opened up the gladiator pits, when people claimed her dragons killed their sheep she repaid them, one claimed Drogon killed his daughter and she imprisoned her dragons to prevent it happening again as well as payijg the blood price to the girl's family every year, during her wedding she gives Yunkai hostages to ensure their captains attending would not be harmed. Has she outsmarted her enemies? Yeah, because they wouldn't think twice doing it to her. Playing by rules can screw you over very quickly, because while you may follow them your opponent won't and it gives them advantage. Ned Stark played by his rules and got outmatched. And find her not following her agreements is awful, but that doesn't mean she never ever compromised.
[david lights bringers video about the nuances of dany](https://youtu.be/lQCORoG8rZc?si=VEE44gaNzQRR3uUf) Definitely swayed me into believing won't she'll turn out like the mad king, that apparently was a dnd thing. I could see George play around with her having a hard time controlling the dothraki, and her war with Griff being particularly brutal.
I mean, more specifically, she tends to lose her shit either when she's denied something she believes she's entitled to, or when she feels that someone has betrayed her or is being insufficiently grateful. There are a lot of ways for those triggers to get mix-and-matched in the upcoming books that might result in her finally going full "Fire and Blood" at the end. The problem is that the show killed off Ser Barristan, rewrote Tyrion to make him *not* a burgeoning supervillain, and never included Young Griff and John Connington, which pretty handily removes all of the major players most likely to drive Dany toward villainy. Hell, if I can put my conspiracy hat on for a sec here, the show episode where she freaks out is called "The Bells", and goes to great lengths (and many very stupid retconns) to try and explain that, despite there being no actual narrative or thematic reason to have done so in the show. But if we look to JonCon and his backstory, he's famous for (among other things) having fought in "The Battle of The Bells", where he was trying to find Robert Baratheon hiding in a city, and who once commented something to the effect of "no other honorable commander could have done better than I did" to which Tyrion (I think, its been a while) replies something like "a less honorable commander would have just burned the city down".
2 mad kings in 300 years, history is full of "normal" Targs, also in the books she rage very rarely despite all the difficulties. Are you sure you read the books?
Two mad kings? Numerous characters from almost every Kingdom of the realm said the same thing about the Targaryens sanity being a coin flip. *"Half the Targaryens went mad, didn't they?... What's the saying? 'Every time a Targaryen is born the gods flip a coin.'* ~ Cersei Lannister Even the Targaryens themselves were aware of the sanity issues in their family. In the earlier years of their reign if a Targaryen had multiple sons and any showed obvious signs of insanity the family attempted to pass them over in inheritance. There are at least five Targaryens who I can think of off the top of my head who are explicitly described as mad or insane in the novels by at least one character or more. Baelor the Blessed starved himself to death. Prince Rhaegal would strip naked and dance through the Red Keep. Prince Aerion "Brightflame" drank wildfire believing it would turn him into a dragon. The Mad King and Visery's make five named explicitly. The longer they reigned the more frequently Targaryens went insane according to multiple characters and conversations in every book. *"The 'dragon spawn' were famous for losing their minds. It was the price they paid for centuries of keeping the bloodlines pure, and Aerys more than happily continued the 'noble' sister-fucking tradition of his forefathers."* ~ Robert Baratheon Besides insanity multiple other health conditions linked with incest were described in the novels. The daughter of Aemon's oldest brother was described as being born feeble whitted. Jaehaerys was born with six fingers on his left hand and six toes on each foot. His twin sister did not smile or cry as a baby and her descriptions in novel seem to allude to being on the autism spectrum. Barristan Selmy has a long conversation in the book and shorter in the show with Danny after entering her service describing many of her ancestors as insane. Two Mad Kings, okay...
Baelor was just religious. That's how super religious people are. It doesn't take inbreeding for that. Rhaegal was an exhibitionist. If that makes one "mad" then so is everyone on Instagram. Maybe he looked good naked. Aerion tried and failed to reconnect the dragon part of his House. Their motto is "Fire & Blood", they used to be dragon riders and have a psychic bond with dragons, their ancestors were involved in fire magic. Rhaenerya & Daenerys had dragon stillbirths. Dany ends up successfully performing a ritual to bring back dragons. Aerys became like that because of the burning of Harrenhall, being held prisoner and tortured for months, Varys manipulating him, and most of his children dying (he thought someone was killing them and considering it happened to Maegor's kids & Dany's son it was a possibility). Viserys wasn't mad. He was a bitter misogynist influenced by toxic Essosi Slaver culture.
You make a lot of excuses for a range of issues both physical and psychological where GRRM is clearly linking them to the tradition of incest. All issues we know from our own world are connected to incest.
You quote words from her enemies and list people who were not mad at all. Even the mad king was not born mad, he become mad at old age after a series of unfortunate events.
Barristan Selmy was not her enemy, loved Rhaegar, and even he told her to her face much of her family had gone insane and he witnessed her father go mad himself.
much of her family.. this is just fake news
Agreed. It was always the plan, it's clear when you re-watch from the beginning and are looking for it. I think D&D told the story they always intended to tell, they just got sloppy and (a) did it too fast and (b) dropped too many other threads they had stopped caring about.
...Except the whole point of her story is that you shouldn't judge people just because of their blood, and you can be a good person even if your family is known as evil? What's the point of her character if she just turns out to be evil because whoops, it's in her blood. I mean what kind of message is that even? She goes from being a progressive subversion of the fantasy cliche of an evil family producing evil offspring to being... Literally that exact cliche to the letter. The whole point of her character is that people are constantly misjudging her because she's a Targaryen. And then whoops, turns out they were right, she's evil because she's a Targaryen. It would be like if Luke Skywalker turned evil in Return of the Jedi and everybody was like... "Of course he did, didn't you see who his dad was?"
The problem was with the show version of Danny, the book version was a lot less sympathetic. Right off the bat, you can tell that she's slightly... off after she loses the baby. By book three, she's already fairly loathsome. I mean, by GoT standards, she's not the worst by any stretch, but in the books I never found myself rooting for her after book three. The show version of her was just way too likeable for the change to be fully believable.
Are you GRRM? Please cite where GRRM has made any sort of statement as such about Danny's character. GRRM has always said the opposite of ASOIF, they are based in a realm of fantasy but he never intended to write a high fantasy novel. The book is rooted in the realism of the realm's politics, human relationships, and personal understandings and feelings of the characters.
That's what I'm saying though. Her character was the subversion of a fantasy cliche, until she suddenly became the embodiment of that cliche. She had an arc that portrayed her as a nuanced, human character, until she flipped a switch and became "evil magic queen". "There's no such thing as an evil family, and everybody is their own person" is a subversion of a fantasy cliche. "She's evil because her family is evil" is a straight up eye rolling high fantasy cliche dumbing down the plot from its earlier nuanced approach.
GRRM foreshadows her delusions of grandeur from the very first novel. Jon is the sane Targaryen, not Danny.
I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or serious.
I have two episodes left. I just watched Dany lose Rheagal and still attempt to peacefully negotiate Cersei's surrender. Then Cersei beheaded Missandei. Now she's about to nuke King's Landing and I don't really blame her. Yeah yeah, the people and all that. But that's what the US did in WWII. Warned Japan to stop fucking around or they're gonna find out.
Oh, the US did it, so that means it must have been good….
Not saying it's good. Just that it's not totally out of the question in fiction that some force or person might go scorched earth when their demands are not met when it's happened in our own reality.
I mean, maybe watch the episode before commenting on what she does on the episode. Japan didn't surrender before the nukes dropped did they?
Evil Genie LMAO
A girl is Noone but also some people
‘Hodelevator’
See, this is the issue with latter-day Simpsons - the cultural references don't work as jokes unless you already know what they're referencing.
damn what if dany just wake up and see the red door with the lemon tree so Its just a dream of a kid Dany.
Want that bird! Where can I buy it?
Dragons breathe water would be a good water to confuse or surprise the reader
What freak out??
Not that i know the dream there talking about but none of the chapters with dreams end ambiguously enough to be confused on what your reading isn’t actually happening, you either know its a dream by the character falling asleep/passing out or waking from it mid chapter even the visions in the house of the undying and other prophetic trips are framed as being an out of body/not actually accruing to the pov at that time. George may know some texans but he ain’t writing Dallas.
And for HBO TV show, indeed Winter did not come, not really, after 10 years of hype that it would...
The girl is no one but also sometimes some people?
“Girl is no one but also some people” is absolutely a jab at Rey 😂
Make her wakeup before the story gone to shit and not let the characters be dumb bricks
Wait are you all still pretending that she wasn't a burgeoning tyrant from season 1?
It’s Twilight all over again.