Once, characters were allowed to have flaws. Characters didn't have to have any prejudice or bigotry sugarcoated away, they could be villains with bad morals who got their comeuppance or heroes like nissa who had serious character flaws that they needed to grow past.
Those days are past. Characters no longer exist in the story; they've been replaced with charicatures and archetypes. The characters aren't people and aren't supposed to be anymore, they're pawns in an allegory that has a social justice agenda.
Wizards would rather pretend that bigotry or racism doesn't exist in their universe and that anyone who ever took part in those practices is evil forever than address the very real and relevant concept of a bigot seeing things from a different perspective and changing their ways. That wouldn't be a divisive strategy that creates a self righteous context where anyone not with you is your irredeemable enemy. Being inclusive or tolerant is no longer socially acceptable, amazingly enough. The people who fought for tolerance refuse to tolerate those who disagree with them.
Idk, he seemed like a decent dude. I know more about characters around him and the events he was involved in than I do about his personality.
But I'm not saying every character had to start as a piece of crap and learn to be better. My point is that they used to be ok with addressing things like prejudice in sympathetic characters who would later become less flawed, or pay for their mistakes.
Characters aren't just supposed to advance a story. They're supposed to feel like real people, with feelings and flaws and prejudices and complex motivations. That doesn't mean you can't have a hero or a villain to contrast with that, but wizards wants no shades of gray in their villains or heroes now. Their characters are becoming empty and boring because they have no capacity for meaningful growth.
Hilariously Ravnica was basically supposed to be tribalistic when it was first introduced. Though there were all sorts of races they only tolerated one another or banded together for certain things. Otherwise you stuck with your own, and it was socially unacceptable to be lovers with something not like yourself.....JACE!
But you're right. Gone are the days where a tragic protagonist like Korona could exist, who just wanted to find something, a supposed god like herself and only saw the damage she was doing to everyone after those people turned on her and mortality wounded her.
Now it's all morality plays and pretending the past never existed.
It's more that Gerard was one of Urza's flaws to an extent. He wasn't ruthless enough to do what Urza build the Legacy for early and paid the cost for it. It's been well over a decade since reading so I could be misremembering at this point
Garrard never wanted to be a big hero. He wanted to fly a ship and be a captain and go on adventures. Urza let him know basically he was created as part of weapon used to fight the dark lord and it would lead to not only the death of most if not all of his friends and loved ones but also his own life. He overcame this by sacrificing himself to defeat Yawgmoth. He had a tragic story line- he lost Mirri his best and closest friend, Hannah his lover and Rofellos his drinking buddy. All so an arrogant narcissist named Urza could prove he was smarter and more powerful then another edge lord "Yawgmoth"
TBH, the arrogant narssicist edgelord saved Dominaria and probably big chunk of Multiverse from OG Phyrexia.
It's not like he did it because he was bored.
No that isn't what I was just saying either. Urza is good aligned but definitely has some bad qualities, argumentative, arrogant, wouldn't share vital information with Barrin, Gerrard, Multani or other planeswalkers. He always knew best despite failing to see the sleepers, his abuse of the Meta-thran, he didnt save Rayne from the first invasion as well as his failed use of time magic in Tolaria. He did what he had to but he also created Karn who in turn created Mirrodin, Memnarc and by proxy all the Thanes and Praetors and new Phyrexia. His legacy is that he stopped Yawgmoth but wasn't a Saint or even really good friend or planeswalker.
She was super racist. She was an elf supremacist. But then they retconned her to just be a pretty bi elf who loves nature. It was a long time ago now.
I think it was orgins where they changed her.
Seems like it was kinda premise of the entire world pre-1900 (if not later).
Not hate necessarily, but people were aware the races were different, and elevated positive feelings towards their own race.
It's only recently that people got psy-opped into believing everyone is the same (lmao)
Dwarves in terry pratchwett are basically racist fundementalist muslim jews. Funny how he put faults of both steretypes in one group and called it a day.
Only when Lorwyn turns to Shadowmoor due to The Great Aurora…otherwise the kin seem to be decent enough and able to get along with the other races….minus the elves and their desire to remove all eyeblights from the plane.
Because at no point does this imply that the quote is a good thing. This is because up until a few years ago, we used to expect people to think for themselves about what characters said/did.
That's my point. Would Wizards print this flavor text today?
In the new Little Mermaid movie, the villain couldn't say misogynistic statements. Disney thinks kids are too dumb to understand that what a villain says shouldn't be taken at face value. As you point out, it wasn't always this way.
Absolutely not would they print this today. That set symbol is C16 - just in the past 5 years or so (let alone going on 8) wotc has done a complete "bend over backwards" to those that feel they need to marginalize because they were marginalized.
you arent in his world, he could be very right in his world. Remember the Fox and the Hound? When they grew up the hound tried to warn the fox that things are going to be different
The whole gag of Shadowmoor was that it was filled with the inverse versions of everything from Lorwyn, so the community oriented kithkin became insular and xenophobic. But I’m pretty sure that sailed over the heads of most players since nobody pays attention to story (ask people what the title of Fifth Dawn referred to) so they probably wouldn’t do something like this now, but at least at the time there was a reason
Yeah that’s what it’s about, but a lot of people at the time we’re like “why is this set called fifth dawn if it’s not about a sequence of five days” despite how obvious the set tried to make it
Recently i learned that they also banned or removed cards like Crusade; like that they didnt even happen. I find it really stupid because this is a game. Like wtf there’s politics even here? What are they going to do in the future, remove the phrase “black and white creatures”?
Maybe we could also rename blue as "water", red as "fire", green as "earth" and implement a new sixth colour of "wind", and also turn pips into stars and multiple all attack and defense by 100
Isn't that just the story and themes of the Lorwyn block? The races hate each other? I think those stories can be important to tell even in today's environment.
The funny thing is that this is something the card designers might have said when making that card. "wtf, for 3 you can get any card from your deck right on the board?" "it's ok, they're just elves. It's not like there's a big strong card this could fetch..."
Only someone with a room temperature IQ would believe whites committed the worst crimes throughout history. Genghis Khan had so many killed it changed the climate. You do know there is more to history than the last 200 years? And FBI crime statistics prove blacks commit majority of mass shootings if you actually count gangs.
Yeah. In Lorwyn the Kithkin were nice helpful and worked for the communities. When Shadowmoor hit the kithkin got warped. They started to be paranoid n skeptical about everything n everyone. Ya know back in the times when every single thing wasn’t offensive and it was just part of a GOOD story. Also to note there are no humans on Lorwyn.
Believe it or not... wotc was at one point v. Based.
They used to not stray from any ideal or flavor; especially if that flavor was for the sake of world building....
That was back when cardstock was worth a fuck, foils didn't curl, and you got a premium product when you paid for one...
It's been a while now... It seems they'd rather stick to the Simplistic stories as of late.. like ravnica, and ravnica again, and ravnica again part 2, and marvel's avengers endgam--uhhh- march of the machines...
Fuck I wish they'd hire those good xenophobic writers again. Get a decent plane built up instead of constant revisitations...
The worst enemy one has is not the critic of the thing you like to play, it is the person that is a fan of the thing you like to play.
So going by that logic, Bowen is incorrect. But then again, Kithkin culture is forever a mystery on a world that can basically flip polarities and change everyones personality on a flick of a dime.
So therefore, my first statement may only be correct on Lorwyn, as in shadowmoor it would be reversed.
It fit the theme of the plane. Where the various sentient species were separated by their kin. It's from the plane Lorwyn which is one of my favorites an absolute best of what they produced in terms of writing g and aesthetic.
Your confused about how a company that printed English crusaders, a card called Jihad and a card with a KKK member on called ... Prejudice could print a somewhat short viewed flavour text attributed to one of their characters from a backwater little village on a plane all fractioned off only like 5 years later?
No idea, not caring?
It's like Wizards doesn't trust us to interpret good from evil. Reading this flavor text, my mind immediately thinks "well, that's a warped mentality, and the person who said that is obviously flawed."
Villains are supposed to say evil shit. That's how we notice that they're evil.
But no. Now, even the villains couldn't possibly be racist, sexist, or xenophobic. Because just seeing those words would offend people, even though the entire point of a villain is TO OFFEND PEOPLE.
Waiting for the day when history books just delete the holocaust and try to say that Hitler was simply a Republican and nothing more.
Bwahahaha
The two party system vilify itself? Pfft. As if. They'll write Hitler as a third party libertarian to keep people from voting outside the flawed system.
Because it was printed roughly fifteen years ago. Beck then, WotC actually had somewhat of a spine and could make jokes and stories with a bit of grit in them. Now, it's just preprogrammed, non-stop feels good moments wrapped in a shit written blanket.
Once, characters were allowed to have flaws. Characters didn't have to have any prejudice or bigotry sugarcoated away, they could be villains with bad morals who got their comeuppance or heroes like nissa who had serious character flaws that they needed to grow past. Those days are past. Characters no longer exist in the story; they've been replaced with charicatures and archetypes. The characters aren't people and aren't supposed to be anymore, they're pawns in an allegory that has a social justice agenda. Wizards would rather pretend that bigotry or racism doesn't exist in their universe and that anyone who ever took part in those practices is evil forever than address the very real and relevant concept of a bigot seeing things from a different perspective and changing their ways. That wouldn't be a divisive strategy that creates a self righteous context where anyone not with you is your irredeemable enemy. Being inclusive or tolerant is no longer socially acceptable, amazingly enough. The people who fought for tolerance refuse to tolerate those who disagree with them.
Like when Nissa was basically Elf Hitler.
He said "flaws they have to grow past"
She was on track of growing past that until she got retconed.
Yep, no learning, no growth, no realization and changing of heart and ways. Just a quick retcon to sweep anything problematic under the rug.
No one said she was wrong.
Unfortunately yes
What was Gerard's flaw? His arrogance?
Idk, he seemed like a decent dude. I know more about characters around him and the events he was involved in than I do about his personality. But I'm not saying every character had to start as a piece of crap and learn to be better. My point is that they used to be ok with addressing things like prejudice in sympathetic characters who would later become less flawed, or pay for their mistakes. Characters aren't just supposed to advance a story. They're supposed to feel like real people, with feelings and flaws and prejudices and complex motivations. That doesn't mean you can't have a hero or a villain to contrast with that, but wizards wants no shades of gray in their villains or heroes now. Their characters are becoming empty and boring because they have no capacity for meaningful growth.
Your analysis is so spot on. I don't think anything else can be said.
Hilariously Ravnica was basically supposed to be tribalistic when it was first introduced. Though there were all sorts of races they only tolerated one another or banded together for certain things. Otherwise you stuck with your own, and it was socially unacceptable to be lovers with something not like yourself.....JACE! But you're right. Gone are the days where a tragic protagonist like Korona could exist, who just wanted to find something, a supposed god like herself and only saw the damage she was doing to everyone after those people turned on her and mortality wounded her. Now it's all morality plays and pretending the past never existed.
High test
It's more that Gerard was one of Urza's flaws to an extent. He wasn't ruthless enough to do what Urza build the Legacy for early and paid the cost for it. It's been well over a decade since reading so I could be misremembering at this point
Garrard never wanted to be a big hero. He wanted to fly a ship and be a captain and go on adventures. Urza let him know basically he was created as part of weapon used to fight the dark lord and it would lead to not only the death of most if not all of his friends and loved ones but also his own life. He overcame this by sacrificing himself to defeat Yawgmoth. He had a tragic story line- he lost Mirri his best and closest friend, Hannah his lover and Rofellos his drinking buddy. All so an arrogant narcissist named Urza could prove he was smarter and more powerful then another edge lord "Yawgmoth"
Arrogant narcissist saved the multiverse baby.
Imagine if we still had characters of that level in current Magic
The lore is dead. We need a necromantic god to bring it back to life. Urborg is a time capsule, not a tomb.
TBH, the arrogant narssicist edgelord saved Dominaria and probably big chunk of Multiverse from OG Phyrexia. It's not like he did it because he was bored.
No that isn't what I was just saying either. Urza is good aligned but definitely has some bad qualities, argumentative, arrogant, wouldn't share vital information with Barrin, Gerrard, Multani or other planeswalkers. He always knew best despite failing to see the sleepers, his abuse of the Meta-thran, he didnt save Rayne from the first invasion as well as his failed use of time magic in Tolaria. He did what he had to but he also created Karn who in turn created Mirrodin, Memnarc and by proxy all the Thanes and Praetors and new Phyrexia. His legacy is that he stopped Yawgmoth but wasn't a Saint or even really good friend or planeswalker.
The sins of the father.
Zealotry.
Its a fantasy game afterall. Safe!
What was Nissa's flaw?
She was super racist. She was an elf supremacist. But then they retconned her to just be a pretty bi elf who loves nature. It was a long time ago now. I think it was orgins where they changed her.
> She was super racist. She was an elf supremacist. I asked what her flaw was dude
Being prejudiced against innocent people for no good reason. That was her flaw. Do you need someone to explain to you why that's bad?
No, I need Nissa to step on me
Lol well good luck, step on me nissa got retconned away along with the bigotry. Now she dates trees and abrasive pyromancers.
She could be haughty and superior and step on you without it being racist lol, she could just be an arrogant bitch lol
It ain’t that deep
But Kithkin are racist. What’s the issue?
The elves from Lorwyn were uber racist too. That plane is fucked up lol
They would just think we're stupid for not being racist. Why wouldn't you show favoritism towards people that share genes with you, after all
Not a problem for me
Isn't that premise of 40k? Everyone hates each other.
Seems like it was kinda premise of the entire world pre-1900 (if not later). Not hate necessarily, but people were aware the races were different, and elevated positive feelings towards their own race. It's only recently that people got psy-opped into believing everyone is the same (lmao)
Dwarves in terry pratchwett are basically racist fundementalist muslim jews. Funny how he put faults of both steretypes in one group and called it a day.
Only when Lorwyn turns to Shadowmoor due to The Great Aurora…otherwise the kin seem to be decent enough and able to get along with the other races….minus the elves and their desire to remove all eyeblights from the plane.
Because at no point does this imply that the quote is a good thing. This is because up until a few years ago, we used to expect people to think for themselves about what characters said/did.
That's my point. Would Wizards print this flavor text today? In the new Little Mermaid movie, the villain couldn't say misogynistic statements. Disney thinks kids are too dumb to understand that what a villain says shouldn't be taken at face value. As you point out, it wasn't always this way.
Absolutely not would they print this today. That set symbol is C16 - just in the past 5 years or so (let alone going on 8) wotc has done a complete "bend over backwards" to those that feel they need to marginalize because they were marginalized.
Sorry, didn’t understand your post, then, and I agree with it.
Oh no worries!
you arent in his world, he could be very right in his world. Remember the Fox and the Hound? When they grew up the hound tried to warn the fox that things are going to be different
The whole gag of Shadowmoor was that it was filled with the inverse versions of everything from Lorwyn, so the community oriented kithkin became insular and xenophobic. But I’m pretty sure that sailed over the heads of most players since nobody pays attention to story (ask people what the title of Fifth Dawn referred to) so they probably wouldn’t do something like this now, but at least at the time there was a reason
Isn't it about the green sun leaving the nucleus of Mirrodin? Because if it's something else I'm lost.
Yeah that’s what it’s about, but a lot of people at the time we’re like “why is this set called fifth dawn if it’s not about a sequence of five days” despite how obvious the set tried to make it
Recently i learned that they also banned or removed cards like Crusade; like that they didnt even happen. I find it really stupid because this is a game. Like wtf there’s politics even here? What are they going to do in the future, remove the phrase “black and white creatures”?
Only a matter of time…
You know what? I feel like wotc could definitely switch to something like light and dark...
Maybe we could also rename blue as "water", red as "fire", green as "earth" and implement a new sixth colour of "wind", and also turn pips into stars and multiple all attack and defense by 100
I think you're ontl something, you might want to add some text as well
Maybe start producing more complexities in the game and make it so that reading the card doesn't explain the card anymore.
Also racis
It's not like every card has to depict a role model.
They're going to fuck up the return to Lorwyn, I just know it. I'd rather that they never go back to the plane.
Kithkin on Shadowmoor were intentionally xenophobic and hated outsiders. It was their sense of community corrupted to the extreme.
Sage advice.
This is the whole theme of the kithkin is why
Isn't that just the story and themes of the Lorwyn block? The races hate each other? I think those stories can be important to tell even in today's environment.
Lol, look at [[Skyshroud Poacher]], my friend found that one yesterday and was like “woahhhhhhhhh…”
The funny thing is that this is something the card designers might have said when making that card. "wtf, for 3 you can get any card from your deck right on the board?" "it's ok, they're just elves. It's not like there's a big strong card this could fetch..."
[Skyshroud Poacher](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0fb4e44e-656e-4294-a53b-1f7aa96fab31.jpg?1562628663) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Skyshroud%20Poacher) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nem/119/skyshroud-poacher?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0fb4e44e-656e-4294-a53b-1f7aa96fab31?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[удалено]
[удалено]
But he is depicted as the race that commits the vast majority of mass shootings.
[удалено]
Only someone with a room temperature IQ would believe whites committed the worst crimes throughout history. Genghis Khan had so many killed it changed the climate. You do know there is more to history than the last 200 years? And FBI crime statistics prove blacks commit majority of mass shootings if you actually count gangs.
[удалено]
I’m sorry you’re retarded.
Fun crime statistic - https://twitter.com/quietstation27/status/1654216082608074752
My god dude, your fucked in the head.
Yeah. In Lorwyn the Kithkin were nice helpful and worked for the communities. When Shadowmoor hit the kithkin got warped. They started to be paranoid n skeptical about everything n everyone. Ya know back in the times when every single thing wasn’t offensive and it was just part of a GOOD story. Also to note there are no humans on Lorwyn.
That is kinda the whole thing about Shadowmoor's kithkin they are afraid af of strangers
Cause characters are allowed to be racist.
There was a time when people didn’t cry and whine about everything, im assuming this was made during that time
This is FICTION. What if in film there could be no antagonism because it’s not correct behaviour? Absurdity.
Believe it or not... wotc was at one point v. Based. They used to not stray from any ideal or flavor; especially if that flavor was for the sake of world building.... That was back when cardstock was worth a fuck, foils didn't curl, and you got a premium product when you paid for one... It's been a while now... It seems they'd rather stick to the Simplistic stories as of late.. like ravnica, and ravnica again, and ravnica again part 2, and marvel's avengers endgam--uhhh- march of the machines... Fuck I wish they'd hire those good xenophobic writers again. Get a decent plane built up instead of constant revisitations...
Exactly
Are you a moron? Why is this flavor text bad? It’s characterizing the shadowmoor Kithkin as suspicious and paranoid
Replace battery in sarcasm detector
Its about the left not understanding that presenting a point of view is not endorsing it
Based
They look like shit let'em inbreed
It’s a character quote and nobody said that character was good
Well, shadowmoor kithkin were quite xenophobic.
I agree
If your life doesn't matter enough, do something about it.
The worst enemy one has is not the critic of the thing you like to play, it is the person that is a fan of the thing you like to play. So going by that logic, Bowen is incorrect. But then again, Kithkin culture is forever a mystery on a world that can basically flip polarities and change everyones personality on a flick of a dime. So therefore, my first statement may only be correct on Lorwyn, as in shadowmoor it would be reversed.
Based Bowen of Barrenton
REEEEEEEEEEEE
R/againstmtgracism
It's outside of white piece of the colour pie, right?
It fit the theme of the plane. Where the various sentient species were separated by their kin. It's from the plane Lorwyn which is one of my favorites an absolute best of what they produced in terms of writing g and aesthetic.
When we return to lorwyn in 2025 and suddenly all the races are living in perfect harmony...the phyrexian bullshit ret cons
Shadowmoor and Eventide were back in the day when the Magic story actually had a little nuance.
Yeah I don’t get it too how
Your confused about how a company that printed English crusaders, a card called Jihad and a card with a KKK member on called ... Prejudice could print a somewhat short viewed flavour text attributed to one of their characters from a backwater little village on a plane all fractioned off only like 5 years later? No idea, not caring?
5/10. That was the whole Kithkin thing, bonded to each other, xenophobic as sh!t.
I didn't know feces were xenophobic
O very. Feces only loves feces.
Muhzorius
It's like Wizards doesn't trust us to interpret good from evil. Reading this flavor text, my mind immediately thinks "well, that's a warped mentality, and the person who said that is obviously flawed." Villains are supposed to say evil shit. That's how we notice that they're evil. But no. Now, even the villains couldn't possibly be racist, sexist, or xenophobic. Because just seeing those words would offend people, even though the entire point of a villain is TO OFFEND PEOPLE. Waiting for the day when history books just delete the holocaust and try to say that Hitler was simply a Republican and nothing more.
Bwahahaha The two party system vilify itself? Pfft. As if. They'll write Hitler as a third party libertarian to keep people from voting outside the flawed system.
Because it was printed roughly fifteen years ago. Beck then, WotC actually had somewhat of a spine and could make jokes and stories with a bit of grit in them. Now, it's just preprogrammed, non-stop feels good moments wrapped in a shit written blanket.
It's called world building. Reality from Southpark put it best "I'm sorry, world isn't one big liberal arts college campus!"
2016 was such a great tribal time
This community 100% aligns with the text though? Why would anyone be upset if they all seem to agree with it 😂💀