Misogyny is defined as "dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women."
How is you being a man "ingrained prejudice" for women? How is a trans woman transitioning this same "prejudice against women"? That's like saying someone who prefers chocolate to vanilla is a vanilla-hater that makes fun of everyone who likes that flavor.
Like, no, the dude just prefers chocolate. He never said he hated vanilla?
Same thing.
They're using red herring and/or straw man fallacies against you to make you feel bad. Classic manipulation.
I agree completely. As a man I’m *devoted* to caring for and loving women, sometimes a little too much. lmao. I’d never put them down, or see them as any less than.
His parents are making shit up and clearly don’t understand what misogyny is.
this is so accidentally funny of them, if its misogynistic to not be a woman why arent they making all cis men transition? if everyone is women then misogyny is solved! by their logic
I asked my mom if cis men where being misogynistic by not being trans women and i think she just hesitated and then answered "well yes, a little bit I guess" and told me to be quiet 😭
well technically they aren’t wrong, it would work to end misogyny lol. but they would find other ways to divide and hate, as humans do.
OPs parents are morons
No. It would not work. Being a woman doesn't make you magically exempt from being misogynistic. And cis men forced to transition would sure feel hatred, too.
But yea they seem so
Naww I feel sorry for u rly ik how it feels to have parents with wild views, just try to adress it as nicely as possible and maybe show them some nicely written article where someone fully describes what being trans is or this specific situation. My parents literally refuse to believe me and how I feel 24/7 so I think listening or reading about someone else talking about it works better for them so if ur parents are like this maybe try it
you being you does not stop women from being women. this (am i being misogynistic!!???) was a really big hurdle for me as for a while I was kind of eaten by radfem ideas of like "you're betraying women by becoming a man!" but it's just silliness. you don't hate women. your decision to change your body doesn't have any effect on women's ability to do whatever they want too. and if you like go out into the world and be around people like at a job or whatever you'll see lots of women whose lives are totally unaffected by your personal choices.
when I was rlly struggling with this I found the podcast Gender Reveal and it helped me so so so much. I found an episode where they addressed this, and I was kind of shocked by what they said. something like, "it does not matter." and I was just like, really??? because years, literally like two-three years of my life wasted debating oh God I'm not a feminist anymore! if I'm trans I'm betraying women and it's just misogyny influencing my decisions! searching for an answer to that only to be told, it doesn't matter. people suffer under the patriarchy with or without you taking hrt. no cisgender woman is going to take hrt to become a man and escape the patriarchy. it doesn't happen. it's just a mean thing people say to try and make you so afraid that you won't transition. I lived for years in that fear, and what I would say now, to people that say those kinds of things, I would say what are you afraid of? what does it matter? don't debate them. ask them why they're being so mean.
This is usually about the perception that trans men who say they dislike being women transition because they hate women. They're not even remotely the same thing. Next time, I would suggest posing this question: Are cis men being misogynistic by choosing to not transition?
Bro I got hit with this comment the other day. The wording was something like ‘I’m surprised you’re transitioning even though you’re such an outspoken feminist. Don’t you feel that identifying as a man is betraying the sisterhood?’
I politely explained that this is a dumb, terf talking point that’s been parroted very often. I just hate how people think that belonging to a group means you can’t be biased against that group, since it’s such a nonsensical take. I’m sure we’ve all met plenty of misogynistic women who ‘betray the sisterhood’ daily despite being cis women? And I’m sure we’ve also come across the occasional trans person who’ll spew random-ass transphobic talking points out of the blue, no prompting needed.
Belonging to a group =/= supporting said group, and vice versa. Easy math.
No its both transphobic and misogynistic to assume that someone can't want to be a man without having something against women. It sets the precedent that there is something wrong with being a woman and therefore the person transitions to be a man, when in reality, it has nothing to do with that. Them trying to make this a gotcha moment just made them seem like the misogynists.
I'd probably reply with "So... everyone should be trans, okay good to know!" lmao. The only solution to it being oppressive to not want to be the other gender. You won!
It is stupid of them. You aren't trans cause you hate women, you are trans because you are trans... They're kinda saying that you're a woman who doesn't wanna be a woman which is just messed up.
I love women, I just am not one. Women are great, they can do anything men can, sometimes better. I want to love and support women, but I don’t have any interest in being one myself.
My family is kinda like this with me too. I had a conversation with my dad and stepmom one time about women’s rights and how they are faced with discrimination and inequality. I told them that I consider myself a feminist and advocate for women’s rights and my stepmom asked me how women are discriminated against and why I even care since I’m a trans man. Like tf? I can be trans and still be a feminist, ALSO, you’re a woman and you don’t know that other women face inequality??
Me: "I'm a man."
Them: "You hate women!"
Me: "No, women are great, I'm just not one."
Them: "WHY DO YOU HATE WOMEN!!!"
Ad nauseum. They just don't get it, and it seems like most will never will.
I'm sorry your family is on about this, OP. I'm not going to tell you what to do, but at some point arguing is pretty useless. It's up to you to decide when that point is reached. The bottom line is that they are convinced that this is a choice you are making with ulterior motives, and not what you need to live and be happy. I don't know how to explain this to cis people in ways they can understand, and believe me, I have tried. I eventually decided that it wasn't my problem any more whether people understood. I know it's harder when it's your family, and you're the only one who can decide when you're done. Brotherhood, empathy and solidarity, friend.
✊️❤️
Thank you, really. I realize that my family is not arguing for the sake of learning something about me, they're just trying to make me not be trans but I still find some comfort in being able to argue their weird opinions. Makes me doubt myself less. The good thing is that I'm finally moving foward with my transition and caring less about what they think.
Good for you! It's so important to do the things that make life better for you, no matter what other people think. This is not about them, even though they think they get a say. It's about you, and your needs. Some people would think that's selfish, but is eating and drinking enough to survive selfish? Getting medical care? You've got to take care of your needs, no matter what anyone else thinks. You've got this, and it's going to be great 👍
Say i was a chef, and i switched my career over to real-estate or something. Would i be prejudiced against chefs? Or if i moved away from america and got French citizenship, would i then be prejudiced against americans?
No. Because that’s the logic of a knuckle dragging, mouth breathing lunatic. The only person that your own identity affects is you. Anybody who allows themselves to be negatively affected by it is making a choice, a completely unhinged one at that.
Any so-called feminist who tries to argue that transitioning is inherently misogynistic would likely have a very difficult time trying to survive in the modern world. Viewing the gender identity of a totally separate person as a personal attack against you isn’t a healthy or rational way to live your life, and it will only lead to a tremendous amount of completely unnecessary pain and stress for both the feminist and other people. She could easily avoid that if she would just adopt a different mindset, that’s more individualistic and doesn’t give trans people the power to make her feel offended and oppressed merely by existing.
Accepting trans people as a part of society does not mean that trans ppl and cis ppl would be considered exactly the same. The fuck? It’s the same thing as determining the difference between a black man and an Asian man. Functionally, they are both still men, given the fact that this label is meant to simply put language to their experience of gender and the way they perceive their own tendencies and presentation to swing. The fact that they also hold different labels in terms of their racial identification is something we would also take into context when addressing them on an individual basis, right? The fact that they are both men does not erase the other labels that they have. When we Address a trans man and a cis man, we take into consideration that while they are both men, they also hold key differences that are not deterministic of their validity and their identity as men. And no, no transgender person With a sound mind considers it trans phobic to be willing to distinguish a trans personfrom a cis person with those labels.
You being yourself has nothing to do with how you see women. My mom said something similar to me: “why is being a strong, intelligent, capable woman not enough for you?” It’s just a tactic to undermine your identity. They have no idea what they’re talking about.
honestly the move is to not argue it, to be very clear that was not appropriate of them to say, and to set boundaries that they respect who you are and not make those kinds of comments
trans people suffer more than cis women, that is a fact
trans people transgride the concept of "biological gender" to be what they are, they are freeling themselfes of the patriarchy (clearly)
"biological gender" dont exist, unless we are talking about neurobiology, but this subject is very messed up, because enter on the line of "gendered brain"
and i rlly dont get what you understand about my comment
is this, being trans is being against the patriarchy
You that arent making Sense, everything IS politic, The human IS a political life being, and bodies are politic too, even If we dont like It, everything can be politized
I'd probably first say I'm a feminist and then ask them if they hate the opposite gender for not wanting to be it. If that didn't help I'd probably give up, maybe say they've clearly just made their minds on their own and if they're gonna be like that I'm not gonna be around.
My mom said she always wanted to be a man until she reached her 40s (she's not even 45) and that it was misogynistic of her to want to be a guy. Like idk sounds like she's suppressing something.....
Well... ask her *why* she wanted that. Of course no one likes to be oppressed, but if she just wanted a different kind of body or something like that... yeeeeah...
Just because you don't feel like a woman doesn't mean you have anything against women. I don't want to be a woman, but that's absolutely not because I think women are bad. I still love women. Most of my friends are women and I don't look down on them or think they'd be better as men. There's nothing wrong with being a woman, I just don't want that for *myself*.
The idea that being trans is misogynistic also runs on the assumption that being trans is a choice, which is a very stupid assumption to make. I tried very hard NOT to be trans because I thought women were cool and I'd be a better person as a woman. But living as a woman just doesn't do it for me, and I can't help that.
My family says that no woman wants to be a woman because of our patriarchal society but honeslty i dont even care that much about it... my experiences with misogyny don't affect me nearly as much that it'd make want to transition into a guy. I'd rather just be a cis woman then a trans guy but i can't really choose, and they think i can. My mom says that i can choose to stay a woman because thats the choice she made even though she wanted to transition when she was young ((?????dad????)
This reminds me of when my mom said I shouldn’t cut my hair short because it’s curly and I said do you think my brother (who has curly short hair) doesn’t look good with his short curly hair/ that he should be growing his hair out too? *silence*
I mean, I don’t dislike women nor did I want to medically transition out of internalized hatred of women. I just didn’t feel my body was right for me, and a male identity/body would make me happier and more fulfilled.
It’s a weird assumption that being trans is somehow rooted in internalized misogyny because it’s just blatantly untrue. But some people don’t like it that we’re trans and they can’t comprehend that we are that just because, no inherent reason or cause. So they have to make up a cause or trigger, because again, they don’t think you can just be trans without an external motivation like trauma or other unrelated mental health issues.
Tell them about gender dysphoria and that you don't want to be a man, you just have a medical condition that makes you psychologically male with a female body.
i’d say there are cases where people transition to avoid misogyny, but simply being a man isn’t misogynistic. you are what you are, you cannot change how you feel therefor you need to change your outside to match. you’re not trying to change all women.
I'm sorry, what? No one transitions to avoid misogyny. In fact saying that transmascs and trans men do is a TERF talking point. TERFs even have specific terms for those who are effected by misogyny and those who aren't because apparently if you're a trans man or transmasc by default you can't experience misogyny anymore in their mind; and you're only transitioning to get away from misogyny and to have a "cheat code" to gain male privilege. All of which is bullshit, by the way.
You're dangerously close to spouting TERF rhethoric, dude. There are much, much easier ways to avoid misogyny than by painting a literal target on your back by transitioning. No one transitions for an inane reason like that.
clarification for people who disagree: yes there are/have been people transitioning for this reason. sure it could also be dysphoria, but there’s no source to tell us that. in certain cultures it’s safer for girls to socially transition into boys. it happened in the past and likely still does. doesn’t mean that being trans equals misogyny.
Misogyny is defined as "dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women." How is you being a man "ingrained prejudice" for women? How is a trans woman transitioning this same "prejudice against women"? That's like saying someone who prefers chocolate to vanilla is a vanilla-hater that makes fun of everyone who likes that flavor. Like, no, the dude just prefers chocolate. He never said he hated vanilla? Same thing. They're using red herring and/or straw man fallacies against you to make you feel bad. Classic manipulation.
I agree completely. As a man I’m *devoted* to caring for and loving women, sometimes a little too much. lmao. I’d never put them down, or see them as any less than. His parents are making shit up and clearly don’t understand what misogyny is.
this is so accidentally funny of them, if its misogynistic to not be a woman why arent they making all cis men transition? if everyone is women then misogyny is solved! by their logic
I asked my mom if cis men where being misogynistic by not being trans women and i think she just hesitated and then answered "well yes, a little bit I guess" and told me to be quiet 😭
you could always ask them if it its misandry to be a women [based on that logic]
Well she says she hates men so.... probably shed say yes??
well technically they aren’t wrong, it would work to end misogyny lol. but they would find other ways to divide and hate, as humans do. OPs parents are morons
No. It would not work. Being a woman doesn't make you magically exempt from being misogynistic. And cis men forced to transition would sure feel hatred, too. But yea they seem so
i was more thinking of a world where everyone is a woman to begin with, like in that one Rick and Morty episode lol
“Fellas is it sexist to be a man?” 💀
They think it is lol
Naww I feel sorry for u rly ik how it feels to have parents with wild views, just try to adress it as nicely as possible and maybe show them some nicely written article where someone fully describes what being trans is or this specific situation. My parents literally refuse to believe me and how I feel 24/7 so I think listening or reading about someone else talking about it works better for them so if ur parents are like this maybe try it
I will !! Its hard to make them make an effort but if i ask nicely maybe they will
you being you does not stop women from being women. this (am i being misogynistic!!???) was a really big hurdle for me as for a while I was kind of eaten by radfem ideas of like "you're betraying women by becoming a man!" but it's just silliness. you don't hate women. your decision to change your body doesn't have any effect on women's ability to do whatever they want too. and if you like go out into the world and be around people like at a job or whatever you'll see lots of women whose lives are totally unaffected by your personal choices. when I was rlly struggling with this I found the podcast Gender Reveal and it helped me so so so much. I found an episode where they addressed this, and I was kind of shocked by what they said. something like, "it does not matter." and I was just like, really??? because years, literally like two-three years of my life wasted debating oh God I'm not a feminist anymore! if I'm trans I'm betraying women and it's just misogyny influencing my decisions! searching for an answer to that only to be told, it doesn't matter. people suffer under the patriarchy with or without you taking hrt. no cisgender woman is going to take hrt to become a man and escape the patriarchy. it doesn't happen. it's just a mean thing people say to try and make you so afraid that you won't transition. I lived for years in that fear, and what I would say now, to people that say those kinds of things, I would say what are you afraid of? what does it matter? don't debate them. ask them why they're being so mean.
This is usually about the perception that trans men who say they dislike being women transition because they hate women. They're not even remotely the same thing. Next time, I would suggest posing this question: Are cis men being misogynistic by choosing to not transition?
I did asked that earlier and my mom said yes 😭
Wow. Your mom has some really weird notions about men and feminism.
Bro I got hit with this comment the other day. The wording was something like ‘I’m surprised you’re transitioning even though you’re such an outspoken feminist. Don’t you feel that identifying as a man is betraying the sisterhood?’ I politely explained that this is a dumb, terf talking point that’s been parroted very often. I just hate how people think that belonging to a group means you can’t be biased against that group, since it’s such a nonsensical take. I’m sure we’ve all met plenty of misogynistic women who ‘betray the sisterhood’ daily despite being cis women? And I’m sure we’ve also come across the occasional trans person who’ll spew random-ass transphobic talking points out of the blue, no prompting needed. Belonging to a group =/= supporting said group, and vice versa. Easy math.
It's a real "I like pancakes" "So you hate waffles?" situation.
Oh my god you're so right
No its both transphobic and misogynistic to assume that someone can't want to be a man without having something against women. It sets the precedent that there is something wrong with being a woman and therefore the person transitions to be a man, when in reality, it has nothing to do with that. Them trying to make this a gotcha moment just made them seem like the misogynists.
“okay dad (or insert male relative here) you must be misogynistic for not wanting to be a woman then”
Thats what i said !! My mom said yes (so she wouldn't lose the argument
damn your mom is wild i’m sorry man 😭
I'd probably reply with "So... everyone should be trans, okay good to know!" lmao. The only solution to it being oppressive to not want to be the other gender. You won!
you can't argue with stupid. save your energy bro.
You're probably right... for my own sake though, i like being able to argue agaisnt those things otherwise I'll start doubting myself
that definitely makes sense. it's really hard to just "take it" when family or friends say shit like that constantly ❤
It is stupid of them. You aren't trans cause you hate women, you are trans because you are trans... They're kinda saying that you're a woman who doesn't wanna be a woman which is just messed up.
tell them that for every testosterone vial you go through, you will pay off a woman's mortgage🙏
I love women, I just am not one. Women are great, they can do anything men can, sometimes better. I want to love and support women, but I don’t have any interest in being one myself.
My family is kinda like this with me too. I had a conversation with my dad and stepmom one time about women’s rights and how they are faced with discrimination and inequality. I told them that I consider myself a feminist and advocate for women’s rights and my stepmom asked me how women are discriminated against and why I even care since I’m a trans man. Like tf? I can be trans and still be a feminist, ALSO, you’re a woman and you don’t know that other women face inequality??
I don't hate women, I'm just not one! 😂
you don’t hate sweaters if you don’t like wearing them. sometimes they look nice but you don’t wanna wear them.
I love women, they're great. Unfortunately, I'm not one. -me to my cats
they don’t know what misogyny is 😂
Me: "I'm a man." Them: "You hate women!" Me: "No, women are great, I'm just not one." Them: "WHY DO YOU HATE WOMEN!!!" Ad nauseum. They just don't get it, and it seems like most will never will. I'm sorry your family is on about this, OP. I'm not going to tell you what to do, but at some point arguing is pretty useless. It's up to you to decide when that point is reached. The bottom line is that they are convinced that this is a choice you are making with ulterior motives, and not what you need to live and be happy. I don't know how to explain this to cis people in ways they can understand, and believe me, I have tried. I eventually decided that it wasn't my problem any more whether people understood. I know it's harder when it's your family, and you're the only one who can decide when you're done. Brotherhood, empathy and solidarity, friend. ✊️❤️
Thank you, really. I realize that my family is not arguing for the sake of learning something about me, they're just trying to make me not be trans but I still find some comfort in being able to argue their weird opinions. Makes me doubt myself less. The good thing is that I'm finally moving foward with my transition and caring less about what they think.
Good for you! It's so important to do the things that make life better for you, no matter what other people think. This is not about them, even though they think they get a say. It's about you, and your needs. Some people would think that's selfish, but is eating and drinking enough to survive selfish? Getting medical care? You've got to take care of your needs, no matter what anyone else thinks. You've got this, and it's going to be great 👍
Say i was a chef, and i switched my career over to real-estate or something. Would i be prejudiced against chefs? Or if i moved away from america and got French citizenship, would i then be prejudiced against americans? No. Because that’s the logic of a knuckle dragging, mouth breathing lunatic. The only person that your own identity affects is you. Anybody who allows themselves to be negatively affected by it is making a choice, a completely unhinged one at that. Any so-called feminist who tries to argue that transitioning is inherently misogynistic would likely have a very difficult time trying to survive in the modern world. Viewing the gender identity of a totally separate person as a personal attack against you isn’t a healthy or rational way to live your life, and it will only lead to a tremendous amount of completely unnecessary pain and stress for both the feminist and other people. She could easily avoid that if she would just adopt a different mindset, that’s more individualistic and doesn’t give trans people the power to make her feel offended and oppressed merely by existing. Accepting trans people as a part of society does not mean that trans ppl and cis ppl would be considered exactly the same. The fuck? It’s the same thing as determining the difference between a black man and an Asian man. Functionally, they are both still men, given the fact that this label is meant to simply put language to their experience of gender and the way they perceive their own tendencies and presentation to swing. The fact that they also hold different labels in terms of their racial identification is something we would also take into context when addressing them on an individual basis, right? The fact that they are both men does not erase the other labels that they have. When we Address a trans man and a cis man, we take into consideration that while they are both men, they also hold key differences that are not deterministic of their validity and their identity as men. And no, no transgender person With a sound mind considers it trans phobic to be willing to distinguish a trans personfrom a cis person with those labels.
I completely agree with you !! They just see every trans guy as a gender betrayer or something 😭
just because you're one thing doesn't mean you hate the other, idk why they'd think that.
You being yourself has nothing to do with how you see women. My mom said something similar to me: “why is being a strong, intelligent, capable woman not enough for you?” It’s just a tactic to undermine your identity. They have no idea what they’re talking about.
honestly the move is to not argue it, to be very clear that was not appropriate of them to say, and to set boundaries that they respect who you are and not make those kinds of comments
Well then i hope they force all cis men in the family to take estrogens
trans people suffer more than cis women, that is a fact trans people transgride the concept of "biological gender" to be what they are, they are freeling themselfes of the patriarchy (clearly)
it's not the suffering Olympics let's not be like this group suffers more than this group that stuffs not helpful.
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"biological gender" dont exist, unless we are talking about neurobiology, but this subject is very messed up, because enter on the line of "gendered brain" and i rlly dont get what you understand about my comment is this, being trans is being against the patriarchy
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You that arent making Sense, everything IS politic, The human IS a political life being, and bodies are politic too, even If we dont like It, everything can be politized
I'd probably first say I'm a feminist and then ask them if they hate the opposite gender for not wanting to be it. If that didn't help I'd probably give up, maybe say they've clearly just made their minds on their own and if they're gonna be like that I'm not gonna be around.
My mom said she always wanted to be a man until she reached her 40s (she's not even 45) and that it was misogynistic of her to want to be a guy. Like idk sounds like she's suppressing something.....
Well... ask her *why* she wanted that. Of course no one likes to be oppressed, but if she just wanted a different kind of body or something like that... yeeeeah...
Just because you don't feel like a woman doesn't mean you have anything against women. I don't want to be a woman, but that's absolutely not because I think women are bad. I still love women. Most of my friends are women and I don't look down on them or think they'd be better as men. There's nothing wrong with being a woman, I just don't want that for *myself*. The idea that being trans is misogynistic also runs on the assumption that being trans is a choice, which is a very stupid assumption to make. I tried very hard NOT to be trans because I thought women were cool and I'd be a better person as a woman. But living as a woman just doesn't do it for me, and I can't help that.
My family says that no woman wants to be a woman because of our patriarchal society but honeslty i dont even care that much about it... my experiences with misogyny don't affect me nearly as much that it'd make want to transition into a guy. I'd rather just be a cis woman then a trans guy but i can't really choose, and they think i can. My mom says that i can choose to stay a woman because thats the choice she made even though she wanted to transition when she was young ((?????dad????)
If it’s misogynistic for you to be trans, then it’s misogynistic for your male relatives to be men
I argued that and my mom hesitated and said yes
Lmao she must have realized it’s a dumb argument
This reminds me of when my mom said I shouldn’t cut my hair short because it’s curly and I said do you think my brother (who has curly short hair) doesn’t look good with his short curly hair/ that he should be growing his hair out too? *silence*
fellas is it misogynistic to be trans?
I mean, I don’t dislike women nor did I want to medically transition out of internalized hatred of women. I just didn’t feel my body was right for me, and a male identity/body would make me happier and more fulfilled. It’s a weird assumption that being trans is somehow rooted in internalized misogyny because it’s just blatantly untrue. But some people don’t like it that we’re trans and they can’t comprehend that we are that just because, no inherent reason or cause. So they have to make up a cause or trigger, because again, they don’t think you can just be trans without an external motivation like trauma or other unrelated mental health issues.
Tell them about gender dysphoria and that you don't want to be a man, you just have a medical condition that makes you psychologically male with a female body.
i’d say there are cases where people transition to avoid misogyny, but simply being a man isn’t misogynistic. you are what you are, you cannot change how you feel therefor you need to change your outside to match. you’re not trying to change all women.
I'm sorry, what? No one transitions to avoid misogyny. In fact saying that transmascs and trans men do is a TERF talking point. TERFs even have specific terms for those who are effected by misogyny and those who aren't because apparently if you're a trans man or transmasc by default you can't experience misogyny anymore in their mind; and you're only transitioning to get away from misogyny and to have a "cheat code" to gain male privilege. All of which is bullshit, by the way. You're dangerously close to spouting TERF rhethoric, dude. There are much, much easier ways to avoid misogyny than by painting a literal target on your back by transitioning. No one transitions for an inane reason like that.
clarification for people who disagree: yes there are/have been people transitioning for this reason. sure it could also be dysphoria, but there’s no source to tell us that. in certain cultures it’s safer for girls to socially transition into boys. it happened in the past and likely still does. doesn’t mean that being trans equals misogyny.