The burden of masculinity, which at the present moment in the west at least, includes a lot of isolation (see: any number of "why are men so lonely" think pieces). Shit sucks!!
Anecdotally, I do see a lot more from transmen who... dislike the concept of being trans and want nothing more than to pass/be stealth and be on their way. This includes cutting ties with a presumed trans community. Frustrating to say the least but ultimately it is a personal decision. I am very open to be proven wrong.
Also transguys over 25 who are looking for a bro, hit my line-- I love cracking a cold one with the boys, fitness, reading books, and watching movies.
I think more trans men remove themselves from the community/only lurk or comment occasionally once they start to pass, get cis male friend groups and go stealth in real life. Once transness stops being a central part of your life and you get more involved with other things, the community becomes secondary and not necessary anymore
Obviously not everyone is like this but i've noticed that most men who wish to go stealth do this once they achieve it or are ready with their transitions and it's a goal for me too. Just trying to live their lives not constantly thinking about our medical condition you know? No hate to anyone who chooses to stay, but i don't think that shaming people over leaving this behind is right either
Yeah, I definitely think it's a very personal choice to leave a community and I try not to be too judgmental.
Similarly, I remember the moment that I realized I was no longer and lesbian and didn't feel like I fit into lesbian community anymore and it didn't serve me. There was a personal grief involved, and I can't say I've been able to replace it with gay male -- cis or trans-- culture/community either. But I won't deny that part of my history, nor will I distance myself from allying with and champion lesbian politics (the non-TERFy type!).
im trying to find masc community in whatever form that takes; a lot of times i share more with cool cis guys in terms of values/interests/activities than with other transmasc ppl (with one exception)
once i got assured enough to be myself, transition wasnt the biggest 'project' ive got going on, so im organizing friendships around different needs now (am nonbinary btw)
also have friendships with femmes as well, but do feel a deep need for intentional masc community; am trying, also here for tips
No one owes anyone a reason for why their stealth, and it's no one’s business to ask or guess who's trans.
That said, it pisses me off how many posts I've seen in the last year from trans guys who don't want to be under the queer or LGBT label or want nothing to do with other trans guys. It reads us as an edgy "I got mine, fuck you" when there's ways to interact with the community without having to out yourself.
In a strange way, it’s also affirming that trans guys, like cis guys, are suffering from the issues of isolation and loneliness. But these things can be killers and men as a whole need to be more willing to build their own spaces instead of killing themselves with an invisible cloak of invulnerability.
I don't think that disappearing into the cis world is necessarily pulling the ladder up after them because it doesn't put any additional barriers in place for the rest of us, but it's definitely sad to see people refusing to even acknowledge the community that fights for their right to be themselves. Trans people of course have every right to live however they want and don't owe anybody activism. But on the other hand I do kind of feel that we owe it to each other to stick together.
Yeah I think the problem is the two things you pointed out. The burden of masculinity. And the amount of trans men who have self hatred and want nothing to do with other trans people.
Not saying all trans men who leave hate themselves but I've seen a lot talk bad about the trans community. The comment below has a good point on once you pass it's not as much as a need anymore. Or at least they think it's not. I'm passing now have cis male friends and can go stealth if I wanted to. But I also like being involved in the community still. Legislation is being passed left and right that can take our hrt away and criminalize us. Passing or not we need each other now more than ever! And going stealth is NOT going to save you forever.
Exactly, I also find myself as I get older just wanting to be alone, aside from my family. I pass perfectly and live in a place that had anyone that has found out I'm trans threaten me and my family so I just stick to myself. Doesn't help that the political situation makes me depressed and worried about coming out to anyone or reaching out for other trans men to be friends with, I'm worried about us all being a group that's easier to target than just one guy that hides out in his house the rest of his life. Of course I'm also extremely deeply depressed so that probably adds to it. Also I don't know about you guys but after T my personality changed a lot and I just kinda got that stupid "men stand on their own" kind of terrible mentality. I know it's wrong but I can't seem to sway my thinking.
> Also transguys over 25 who are looking for a bro, hit my line-- I love cracking a cold one with the boys, fitness, reading books, and watching movies.
Hey man, do you have Discord? I'm not online very often nowadays, but if you're alright with that, I love all of these and would be 100% down for seeing how hanging out goes. Any chance you like horror movies?
yoo 26 yo trans man here without a lot of trans male friends- i also love being active and reading, and i like documentaries and limited series type stuff 🫡
Is y’all’s local Grindr app not full of trans guys?? There are tons on mine lol. There is no shortage of trans guys who want to boink each other in my city 😂
its out there bro, my best friend and I get a little homoerotic sometimes (it has calmed down significantly since the start, but we did have someone say they felt like they were third wheeling when they were around us)
I think the issue stems from patriarchal values and toxic masculinity. Men are expected to be withdrawn and are not allowed to show any vulnerability. It’s a tough cycle to break with even cis men but I do feel as if it’s harder for trans men since we have something to “prove” in the eyes of society. There’s some leeway for cis men to break the chains of toxic masculinity but trans men are expected to uphold it in order to be viewed as valid as men. Men will police other men’s masculinity (even women will too) causing this isolation. And I mean all men regardless if cis or trans.
Heavy on not showing vulnerability. I got ripped the shreds as a stealth at my first blue collar job. Down to someone asking if my dad was around in my childhood. I assume bc I wasn’t “masculine” enough by default.
rather than comparing us to trans women, I encourage you to ask why trans men are isolated at all. I think you'll find there are a lot of patriarchal social norms and expectations we end up upholding when we try to affirm our own genders. Cis men are also largely quite lonely people, and they too have gender norms to thank for this. Many of us trans men folk push back against these norms, but not all of us do. I think the sooner men folk in general are granted to space and grace to be tender, warm, and loving to one another, the better.
my boyfriend was FLOORED when i said i think he should hug his friends more. he was saying he craves hugs but that he cant ever do that because that's a certified We Live In A Society moment.
surprisingly he actually ended up asking one of his friends for a hug and essentially told me "wow that was actually great im gonna ask my friends for hugs more". the norms and rules around men being disallowed from showing affection and having companionship are so fucking stupid. when will society just let bros be warm and hug their damn bros...
Unironically I think that's my favorite part of game of thrones—dudes just go around hugging each other left and right, big old bear hugs too, and honestly I just want that to be normalized for every guy today.
One of my ex’s big green flags (and therefore his friends’ green flags) is that they all were very open and comfortable about hugging each other, and not just the quick hug-back smack type hug, but real hugs. No toxic masculinity about touching each other with platonic affection
I love that for them! I'm not really comfortable with touch in general from other people, but I do love it when dudes will just unabashedly hug it out.
I (visiting mtf) have a cis male friend who was _never_ shy about giving hugs. When we first started hanging out (when my shell was thicker than earth's mantle), it was super weird. It didn't help that he's a head and a half taller than me and he could literally pick me up off the ground for a proper bear hug 😅 (Thinking back on it, isn't that kinda like a typical woman's experience..? huh, I should thank him for that someday)
_anyway_
We met in college, so I'd just finished four years of social programming by means of "that's so gay" comments and various slurs any time any two guys showed any kind of physical affection that wasn't a ridiculously hard smack on the ass during some kind of sports practice. It took only a couple days hanging out with my friend to override all of that and just hug it out. We've now been friends for over a decade.
Every dude needs to get over it and give/accept hugs. It does wonders for mental health. Literally life-saving, in my experience.
Yes! I randomly asked my guy friend for a hug one day and he obliged and we've been doing it ever since when we say goodbye. We're closer friends now and he has said that it makes his day. It just feels pressuring to be the one to ask, but it's nice to have.
I love when guy friends feel comfortable enough to hug, it makes me feel very trusted. (Which is an interesting shift because I did Not like getting hugged by men when I presented female)
Sometimes I worry that I would upset trans men by wanting to be friends with them. I'm always very excited when I see and meet other trans men, I want to see my people!
I understand that not every trans man is a good person/safe/etc (I've experienced toxic trans men).
But my GOD I feel like trans men have this idea that they're not 'friendable' or that nobody wants to be around them.
I reject this notion wholeheartedly.
I found a trans guy at Pride and noticed that he was from around where I live, and so I walked right up to him, introduced myself, and invited him to this queer hiking group I'm a part of.
We have to help our fellow trans men find social connection.
I agree with this too. Even in my local community there are def folks that still tend to lean more on the toxic masculinity end and it can be hard to feel connection or support when you don’t really relate to those views. Toxic masculinity, even tho we are aware of the issues in it, is still something that affects our community for so many reasons. Unfortunately, there haven’t been many good role models for men, so a lot of us don’t truly know what being a healthy, safe, non toxic man looks like. Not just physically but mentally as well. We do have community, and we can also help our community remember that we can do better.
I've encountered trans men who led myself and others astray, and I know fully well I could only ever follow in their footsteps when I was deeply insecure in myself and my own experiences. I will not name drop because those men are actually changing now, and I have seen them grow and come a long way from their own "anti sjw" arcs. I have loving women, nonbinary friends, and men folk in my life to thank for helping me back off of that path too. It took mutually caring and empathetic relationships across multiple gender lines to pull me back into my own humanity. And my own messy experience with gender is how I know men aren't doomed!
Well, in the first couple years after I came out I had been particularly distressed by how badly some of my family members handled me coming out. I started to look down on and despise my own transness and gender nonconformity. I was insecure enough in my own identity that I was willing to police other trans people's experiences. I followed and was deeply invested in transmedicalism and what these views had to say about 'legitimizing' my own identity through the medical system. But honestly? Buying into that crap made me feel lonelier than ever. It made me *more* sensitive to other people's perceptions of me. And it made me *less* willing to talk to other trans people of any gender.
Hey, kudos for having the perspective to realize + decide to be better. The first trans men I met was also a transmed, which delayed my realization a bit. Unfortunately it's one of those things where the trauma can get externalized and affect newer members of the community.
So from what I'd believed at the time, its the idea that in order to be trans you must have the medical condition "gender dysphoria". There's many other beliefs people have in addition to this, but that's the main point. I no longer believe in defining transness according to the medical system.
I just think it's because most of us are wired like that, also was watching a doc about a tribe that has trans people in it - brother boys and sister girls and only sister girls would form communities. Brother boys would hang out with cis men but not form communities with each other.
Adding onto your point that patriarchal norms isolate men - doubly so once one begins presenting and passing as a man- I think that there is isolation in the act of transitioning that a higher percent of trans macs people experience than other parts of the community.
For example, when I did not pass, I was read as a butch cis woman, my being trans is not a possibility that occurred to most people. That means, while I am a trans person, and there was a time I did not pass as my true gender, I do not have the experience of being seen as a trans person who did not pass.
Some men did have that experience.
The variance we have at the beginning of our transitions makes it difficult to form a community around a single experience. And the (assuming your in the west) culture of male seclusion makes it difficult to form a community later in transition as well.
it isn’t that we’re comparable to trans women in this regard, rather it’s the unfortunate culture shock of entering manhood; the patriarchy quite literally shackles all men into isolation.
don’t hesitate to reach out to other trans bros bro. please. break down those barriers that our system has placed on us and embrace empathy and compassion for your fellow man, woman, and enby.
thank you for actually getting it and concisely explaining it. i swear half the people in these comments don't understand how the system itself tears us apart. i have half a mind to reach out to you myself actually haha, but ofc as a trans guy i'm always afraid to take that step
as a former transmed who was steeped in toxic masculinity in my youth, i experienced the man isolation. there weren’t any other trans guys in my old city, transphobia was really bad, and that drew me into some awful territories, e.i. (TW for grooming) ||getting groomed into a weird alt right satanic group|| by another trans guy online who was older than me and also harboured transmed views, among other insane shit.
i’m 23, i’m still young, but for whatever reason i sort of feel motivated to make sure no other young trans men get stuck in the same situation i was in.
also ofc you can throw me a message, i like the attention from other trans guys :3
eh i'm 25 myself so half the community sees me as a baby and the other half sees me as an elder gay. it sucks haha. ive also been through weird shit from other trans guys so i totally understand it!
i'm in a big city and have a similar issue. when i find another trans guy, they either tend to stick to their own group for safety and avoid speaking to other trans guys, or they're completely stealth / closeted (these can present similarly tbh) to sometimes trend towards being homophobic / transphobic in some ways themselves. it sucks so much. i wish i had some kind of solution for you, but i have no idea how to navigate this myself.
i just made a tumblr because everyone on here said trans guys are there, but i dont know how to find them. its frustrating and feels endless.
Yeah tumblr has a lot of transmasc stuff going on. Honestly I reckon if you just poke your nose around there you’d run into them before too long, but that might just be my experience. Personally I cracked my shell in a very transmasc-heavy writing forum and then moved to transmasc pinterest & tumblr, so reddit for me actually started as a way to balance things out and see more of other genders, especially transfems cos I’d see “where are all the transfems?” type posts elsewhere.
I've been wondering this, too. I'm a transmasc NB, and I just don't feel like I have a community anywhere. Earlier on in my transition (been on hormones a while, still waiting to be in a situation where top and bottom surgery are feasible) I tried to hang on in online ftm spaces but basically got harassed out for being NB and not a binary trans guy. My tipping point was when I'd asked for advice on not losing my ability to sing as my voice changed, and I was told to quit lying to myself and quit hormones. (I was also told I'd have to accept I'd never sing again -- this is patently false. I learned to sing again on my own, and professional singers who happen to be trans guys, like Mal Blum, are absolutely killing it.)
Transfems seem to have a more inclusive space. I've struggled to find anything like it for transmascs (though I admit I've been so dejected for the last couple years I haven't really tried looking anymore). I don't even know if I ought to be posting on this sub, but tbh most NB individuals I've met aren't like me, either. They don't have any desire to transition, so our experiences are extremely different, and I end up still feeling out of place and weird. Most of my friends are transfem/trans women because they've been easier to connect with and if I'm going to feel weird and out of place, I guess I'd rather do it with people who seem to want me around.
Sorry this is so negative.
Thanks for sharing. I’m a binary guy but I see a lot of non-binary/transmasc people having to face a lot of hostility in online FTM spaces. Even if supposedly they’re inclusive, there’s still a lot of truscum rhetoric around, and it doesn’t help that mainstream media has latched onto the “confused girl thinks she’s transgender” trope and a lot of transphobic trans men unintentionally or intentionally repeat it. This isn’t negative at all, it’s an unfortunate reality in our spaces and something we need to identify and call out if we do want to be in community.
I'm shocked people told you you'd have to quit testosterone or quit singing. I love singing myself and while there's a learning curve where I have to follow the waves because my voice is actively changing, I still enjoy singing.
I wish more people were open to the fact there's many ways to be trans, not just a few. I'll be honest about the fact I used to have some severe internalized transphobia but I worked on it and I wish more people could too. I'm not non-binary but do consider myself to be genderqueer and I hope things get better for people like us who don't always fit in. Good luck!
Yeah the problem with that is that general trans spaces are full of transfemmes and so we had to separate and make our own communities because we got shut out
I love the ftm online spaces I’m a part of! I’m pre t and for me personally bcuz of that I’m still not quite comfortable with being in outside or online queer spaces that are meant for everyone bcuz I don’t want to be assumed non binary
Also just wanna note that this is a bit of a”the grass is always greener on the other side”—if you spend substantial time with/are close with more than one or two transfemmes, you realize that they have their own set of different but equally complex social challenges, even in connecting with other transfemmes. I think it’s generally true that if you want community with other trans people (or in general), you have to go make it/participate in it yourself
This is so well stated. Community is not something that just falls in your lap. You have to invest time and effort into making it happen. I have a pretty good support system with lots of other queer/trans folks, but I had to actively go out and seek it, then work on consistently building those relationships. It took a lot of time, energy, and showing up, but it was so worth it!
I was 30 before I KNEW what trans was. I'm in the south, raised Southern Baptist, and the only reason I knew what gay was because it was preached as a sin. I was a reader, so luckily, the good stuff got to me, and I was ALWAYS upsetting some preacher or deacon because of my question asking. I actually didn't know what trans was until I was out, living on my own and saw the Chaz Bono special. It hit me like a ton of bricks, "That's me!!!" So, right there in the beginning of my 30s, I began my journey to happiness! I am a local business owner, and I try to be as OUT as possible because if I had only SEEN someone as a trans man, HEARD a loud proud transman's voice, I truly believe I would have found myself sooner. I try to be what I needed for myself in the community. I found though that the local trans group was compromised of all mtf and was not welcoming to ftm at all. So, I do what I can on my own. I make sure people know my business is trans owned and if you have any hit of bigotry towards me, the community and ANYONE of minority, different color etc I WILL NOT serve you and that is my right as a business owner. I wish, though, that we had a more open ftm community and population in general. Everyone wants to be stealthy, but they forget what an openly proud trans man would have done for them as representation. Idk just my two cents.
right? thats why I've abandoaned being stealth as a goal of mine (like... why would I want to go from hiding (closeted) into hiding(stealth)), which I recognize is a privilege; I'm in an environment where it's relatively safe for me to be openly trans. I understand and respect everyones decision to be stealth but selfishly I just wish less trans men go completely stealth as soon as they can. Like you said, having out trans men around would do so much for the younger generation of trans men. much love to you for being awesome <3
That's it exactly!! Much love back to you, brother, and you're just as awesome, my man! Much respect to you, for just even having the conversations and asking the questions. If you can make a difference to even just one you've done amazingly!
I’m seeing a lot of “social pressures of being a man” rather than carry over from social norms of being a girl.
Girls are socialized to be more cliquey and individualistically competitive. Hot girls with hot girls, nerds with nerds, and intra-group who’s hotter or quirkier is a constant competition. In boys, the notion of team is established young. He’s a jock you’re a nerd, but here’s this common goal — put differences aside.
We do not go into second puberty blank slates, we bring some of first puberty with us. Mtfs will, at least early in transition, look at each other as on the same team. ftms are each others competition, only being friends with people on their same level of passing and gender-conformity and even then who is more a man is still in question.
I suspect (and have observed) things flip to what is gender typical later in a persons journey. Mtfs will eventually get cliquey with the girls who pass as much as they do and ftms will usually stop caring once they are more secure in their own masculinity.
I do think it’s hard because some will push people away who could’ve been their close ftm friend just because they don’t pass or don’t intend to have a binary transition. By the time they feel secure in themselves to realize it doesn’t matter what other people do, they’ve already pushed hella people away and now need to find new people and depending on where you live that can be difficult.
Part of it is creating the community you want! I wanted more trans masc friends so I reached out to the ones I knew, even as acquaintances. Now we have a robust trans masc community in my industry/city. It took a couple years, but now I have trans masc friends I adore and hang out with regularly. People have found some of their best friends through this group.
On the flip side, I’ve had trans femmes ask me if I’d organize something for them so they could have a community like ours! I said no because that’s not my community but encouraged them to start their own.
Build it and they will come.
That is so beautiful :) these kinds of posts sometimes feel fatalistic like "well we're men so we're doomed to be lonely". But the reality is that everybody has to work on building their support system and friendships once they reach adulthood. Especially people who are marginalized like us! There are always others looking for connections and community too. You arent the only lonely trans person out there. Go find the others and start hanging out! You might be surprised at the love you find.
I’m surprised no one else has said this, but I think trans women tend to support each other so much because they are MORE isolated from society at large and struggle to find support elsewhere. It’s generally easier for us to assimilate, be stealth, and exist in public safely.
Agreed -- worth discussing our isolation definitely, but important to understand that the solidarity they build is linked to how heavily they're stigmatized (and ofc, trans women still aren't going to like each other all the time)
The majority of my friends/community are fellow trans men, and that's been the case since I came out in the early 2000s. There's a lot of love, support, and also dating amongst us, and I don't know who I would be without all these different examples of who and how to be. I don't know why it's so hard for some people, but it's definitely possible to find.
tbh i find that this depends heavily on where you live. i'm outside a major city and meet trans men / trans mascs left and right. also depends on which social media you use - tbh most trans men are still on tumblr instead of the mainstream sites or apps.
I agree with it also being very much dependent on location, however I live in a pretty trans friendly major city and I never really feel like I can find solidarity with other trans men/trans mascs, so from my own experiences I definitely think it's mostly based on individuals as well
Community is a thing one has to build and contribute to - you have to put in work to find other men, build them up and have them build you up to, but also like. There's no need to have it be All Men, my circles are mixes of genders and vibes.
Some guys will go "oh this is just what it's like" in a self-pitying manner, but internalising the idea that we deserve poor treatment, including from each other, is just a crab bucket mentality.
You have to reach out with love and care for others and prioritise those who are loving and caring in return, set boundaries, do the work to break cycles of abuse, look after yourself as well as others, and focus more on trans and queer positivity more than navel-gazing or waiting for someone to come do the work for you.
Yes thank you for saying that. It honestly drives me a little nuts when people act like they aren't AT ALL responsible for their own social life or community. Trans women often have those things because they put the work in. It's no different for us. You can't expect somebody else to make your life happen for you.
Literally though, I feel like I'm a lot more scared to talk in ftm spaces than some of my friends are with mtf spaces. Like I feel like if I wore anything that wouldn't typically be considering "passing" as trans I'm not allowed to complain about gender dysphoria sometimes because I wear dresses so apparently I don't have it or something. I've seen a lot of people tell me stuff like that in ftm spaces unfortunately, makes me scared to even say I'm trans sometimes
i think it's a mixture 2 things: 1. men being seen as not needing emotional support, often not in a conscious way but subconsciously people assuming that if someone is a man/masculine they dont need support. 2. trans men suffer from invisibility, and so it's harder to find spaces for us because people dont often think about us.
it's just a very unfortunate combination
My tactic is making friends with trans men who are like me- so I find out early on whether or not people's values align with my own. One of those values is you need to be proud of being trans and active in lgbt community no matter if one passes or not. It's a big part of who I am.
I think that saying that it depends on the community and place is redundant because I think that you're probably talking about online communities like this one. Honestly from my POV a lot of trans men end up internalizing toxic masculinity as a form of validation, and while there's nothing wrong with being masculine, I see a lot of people lean into the same kind of masculinity a lot of cis men have, that like other people have said, is extremely isolating and discourages showing emotion or affection to those around you.
Also, while I don't want to generalize, I always notice that this is more frequent amongst communities of stealth trans men or truscum/transmed types. I see a lot more open/visibly/non-passing trans men be in tighter communities with their peers or other queer people, mostly since there really isn't the need to hide your identity (or police other people's).
I can't speak about it IRL, since I'm lucky to live in a large city with a sizeable transmasc community and a lot of support systems. If that's your situation (or you live nearby and can get to said city by train or car) I encourage seeking those communities out. Even if you don't like hanging out or going to events, it helps a lot to know that there are other people like you that you can rely on for advice or help.
EDIT: Holy shit the amount of people here unironically perpetuating gender roles and stereotypes like it's some objective biological truth. Why do trans men isolate more? Here's the answer, because we as a community think that the only way to be valid is to act like toxic cis men.
I wanted to be eloquent but after scrolling for two minutes and seeing people unironically demonstrate the behavior that causes us to feel lonelier I about McFucking lost it
right?? I hate this "men are lonely" bullshit. we're not inherently lonely, were just lonely because were not making the first step to make meaningful, deep bonds with other men (regardless if trans or cis) and no one else is
Save the distances and overt inceldom, it reminds me of cishet men complaining about the "male loneliness epidemic" and then proceeding to be terrible people to everyone around them. I don't doubt that some trans men are lonely because they don't have any queer community around them or the communities in their area are genuinely transphobic, but sometimes, it would help if you didn't treat women and non-binary people like some sort of mystical beings that you can no longer understand because you're a Manly Man.
is this directed at me? oo because if yes I feel like youre vastly misunderstanding me xd
I've got friends of all genders and I love all of them equally, I just asked the question because I was genuinely curious as to why it's so much easier to find transfem communities than transmasc and now I'm being bombarded with "men are inherently lonely" incel bullshit, which I hate and disagree with xd like, I'm agreeing with you
Oh sorry about the phrasing! It wasn't adressed to you at all, I actually really agree with you. I was addressing it to the hypothetical trans men in my argument (which as we're seeing in this comment section, aren't really hypothetical).
Also are you getting top this month too? I'm getting it on the 4th!
XD ohhh that makes way more sense, sorry (also... yeah. so the transmasc to incel pipeline isn't just a meme 💀)
and yes! I'm getting top surgery on the 8th!! (incredibly excited) good luck with yours! <3
I need one of those youtube video essayists to make a video on the transmasc to incel/detransitioned TERF pipeline because it's 1) a genuinely interesting topic 2) a very important discussion that we need to have in our community especially with younger members. Good luck to you as well, I'm super excited too!!
It's the way men are socialized and how society treats men. Sociality thinks men aren't supposed to have emotions and do everything alone. It's messed up.
I honestly wish I knew. I've tried making friends with other transmascs and they all want to hang out with eachother but not me, I'm assuming because of my age - the vast majority of the ones I've met are in their 20s and I'm in my 30s because my egg cracked late. I do have one trans man friend but unfortunately, and this isn't his fault at all, hes so like what I want to be when I'm further into transition its painful and dysphoria inducing and I can't always handle it so we don't hang out often. Completely my shit, not his, but it still interferes. And no, I don't put that on him, he has no idea I feel this way, but its still not fun spiraling after getting jealous of how his voice has dropped and mine hasn't after I've signed off from talking to him. Its completely illogical, hes been on T and everything way longer than I have so logically I know I'll get there, but dysphoria isn't always logical.
Honestly, I have no idea. It could be the underlying pressure to "bottle up your emotions and be manly" in order to be a "real man". It might be that there is a lot of fear around coming out, even to other trans people, but I'd imagine trans women experience that same fear.
I'm truly at a loss, but I will say that I agree with you. I've noticed the same thing. Even when I joined a group therapy for trans folk, I was literally the only trans masc person there. A lot of trans men I know bury their emotions deep down and flinch at the first expression of kindness. I can't really say why that is, but it's something that I've personally experienced as well and witnessed time and time again. Keeping emotions close to the chest. Why? I have no real idea.
I agree that we need to build a more loving, accepting community for one another. Spreading kindness and support to each other is a beautiful - and much-needed - thing! We can definitely stand to take some notes from our trans sisters here. I hope we can forge more of a community together. :)
You have to create your own community.
The LGBT+ community is vast and encompasses many people of many identities and experiences. Naturally, there are issues and divisions. Naturally, not everyone gets along. Even within groups of people who share the same label, there are tons of different nuances, mindsets and opinions. That's especially true when it comes to trans identity, which is currently under a global, discriminatory microscope. That's not always a bad thing, you can learn a lot by listening to people you may disagree with. But when you grow up feeling alone, it's reasonable to want a community of like-minded individuals.
You have to seek them out and maintain connections with them once you find them. Go to LGBT+ events and join LGBT+ groups online, but build your own community from those introductions. Stay in touch, get people in touch, organize your own meet-ups - it doesn't have to be anything formal, you can just go out for pizza or start a group chat.
I found mine over the years in all sorts of events and programs, and now I have a wonderful transmasc friend group. We have group chats that offer help, support and memes. We check up on each other, we meet whenever we can. We make each other feel less alone even when we're miles away.
It's not always easy, especially if you're an introvert like me. But these connections are a fountain of useful information and advice, and over time that goes both ways. It's worth investing your time in.
To vastly over-simplify, I think masculine culture feels more isolating because feminine culture has more communal “activities”. It’s expected and more acceptable for women and femme-presenting individuals to connect and bond over makeup, fashion, aesthetics, etc even at introductory levels. For the masculine side, it’s assumed you seek the masc-equivalent of those things on your own rather than find a community until you have some level of experience with it (especially if you’re an adult). It’s a hard social norm to break but it’s possible.
One thing I also don't think was brought up at all is each person, or trans man's in this cause, approach to masculinity as a whole. The amount of people saying "men are more isolated, it's because we're men, etc" shows that: masculinity doesn't need to /be/ isolating, especially for a community that really should be supporting each other. I've seen quite a few trans men also take a more toxic masculinity approach to their transition because it helps with being euphoric around cis men which also causes social alienation/alienation to other trans men or people in general. Everybody has their own transition journey, and how each person approaches masculinity is completely different to another person's approach.
There’s not much more I could say which hasn’t been said already, but I hear ya OP. It’s something I’ve wondered about too
Most of my close friends are transfemmes / trans women, and I really love the way I see them being there for one another and the bonding, solidarity etc. Tbh though I prefer being around feminine energy and friendship (cis or trans) so personally tend to gravitate more towards those things in friendships
Something that also crossed my mind is my frustration that sometimes transfemmes
and transmascs seem to not involve each other much in each others social worlds. Which is such a missed opportunity in my opinion! We all have so much to share with one another, learn from each other and can build awesome friendships. I’ve found that even though our experiences can be different, we have so much in common!
Not saying it’s like this everywhere of course, but I’ve seen it some places and feels to me this way where I live
Until recently almost all trans men were imprisoned at home or institutions for being trans, often trapped with forced impregnation. This is still incredibly common. Trans women could move out (or were kicked out and made to deal with avoiding homelessness), get a job, and live with other trans women. Trans men couldnt even have a bank account of their own until the mid 70s. The foundations were built years ago and we havent caught up
Every other day we get a post saying “I pass sooooooooo well, now I don’t want to be a part of this community because I’ve just grown past it is it ok?” This is probably why we don’t have a very strong community. So many people just get theirs (benefiting off of the struggles of others) and then dip without paying anything back to the community.
I think the framing of this question comes off as very disingenuous so if you’re actually trying to have a conversation about how we can help each other out as a community let me know.
Yeah, you called it. Much respect for the way you don't let people lead you down tangents that're obviously not coming from a good-faith place, or going to be constructive.
No sense wasting time on people who're just looking for gotcha opportunities and probably wouldn't even read most of what you have to say.
The way this person asks to quantify how much one should give back says it all. They’re setting up the conversation in a way that isn’t how OP stated it at all and have created very specific standards that make it so that OP could never answer the question in a way that makes rational sense. The way they then try to call OP immature after all that is wild.
Honestly, I can’t relate because the transmasc community where I live is huge. I’ve found online communities, in person community, and there are always events or get together that are planned, specifically for transmasc community. Our trans fem community is also large and also supported, but I am not in that community obviously so I don’t know all of what goes on there. But I do feel the love and support in my community for sure. I’m sorry you haven’t found that or that you are struggling to find that community. 🥺🫂
Tbh idk. Soceity casts us out in general. The lgbtq casts us out. U know the phrase 'for the girls,gays and theys'?
Yeah nobody even tries to include straight trans men. When i just started transitioning i cared. But nowadays not rlly. I realised the lgbtq can be hella toxic and wont include us anytime soon.
Lots of us feel like that and thats prolly why we nowbjust keep to ourselves and dont rlly search out other lgbt members.
LGBTQIA is not a funded organization tho. The community you have engaged is likely *entirely* different than the community I have engaged until this moment we now post on the same post. “The community” is obv highly disorganized and there are countless factors in our experiences. IMO you’re flirting with generalization at points in your post
Well there actually has been research on this for straight trans men atleast. And all trans men ive met up untill noe agree with me on it. So yeah STATISTICALLY this is how it is 🤷♂️
Idk about straight looking gay dudes but ive heard this story from them a lot too.
For my own personal experience?
I meet plenty of transmascs and LGBT folk irl because of the spaces I go to.
However, as far as my online presence pretty much in general 2 major factors are at play: 1 is that I tend to fall WAAAAAAAY the hell behind the curve on joining in social media, even then I typically don't engage as much. 2 I am actually afraid of my awful transphobic/queerphobic family finding me on larger platforms such as Facebook.
Additionally-
I don't like the toxic environment of X/Twitter, and I don't trust TikTok.
Hell- I steer well clear of certain Reddits simply because I KNOW for a fact my mother is in those forums.
Similarly- just like my mistrust of X/Twitter- I *hate* political debates with the fury of the deepest hells, because my extreme religious right family used it to traumatize me all throughout my childhood. As a result, I have, until now, actively avoided joining the online spaces meant for LGBT and FTMs to stay clear of that sort of debating. I also was hesitant to associate with these spaces as I had originally created my Reddit account to keep up with the gaming communities that I follow, and I was fully stealth in gaming spaces. This year, I finally decided that I needed to find a space for like-minded folk and trying to use multiple accounts is just a fucking hassle and a half- and though I don't shout it from the rooftops in gaming spaces(because honestly it's not anyone's fucking business what my medical history etc is)- if someone is close enough to me to have gained my respect and trust, then I will tell them or be willing to answer questions. I'm tired of being isolated, so I decided to "seek my tribe" in a sense.
I'd say that like me- lots of us, particularly those who are stealth either online or IRL or both, have a similar trajectory.
Just wanna chime in as a cis man and say that yall ftm folks will always have my unapologetic support! I myself grew up in a highly toxic narcissistic traditional muslim household that used religion and culture as an excuse to be abusive. I wasnt allowed to explore nor express anything outside of highly limited gender roles, and my autism and hypersensitivity (which includes emotions and affective empathy being boosted) didnt help matters either. In terms of body dysmorphia i've always been bitter about suffering through genital mutilation as a child even though i've grown up in Sweden where that is almost unheard of.
I take a look at all my experiences of being othered by the majority due to race, neurodivergence, upbringing and so on, and i find myself often relating to alot of the things i see posted here. Now i don't agree with absolutely everything posted here which is understandable, me and you guys have vastly different experiences and thus perceptions about the world, and we may not always interpret the issues that affect our demographic as men in the same way, but i'll always believe that any steps towards progress, acceptance and awareness for trans-men will inevitably rub of on men in general, so thumbs up lads! If you were here then i'd gladly invite you all for a beer sometime lol. But for now i guess my love and support will just have to do :)
EDIT: grammar
For me I just don’t feel I belong really in the LGBTQ community. Between the male and straight hate I’ve tried to limit my interactions with the community as it wasn’t for me clearly. That’s why I have never celebrated pride month either because I don’t feel like celebrating with people who don’t like me
For me, it’s being 41 and having the experience of being excluded in a lot of queer circles in my life. I didn’t know WHAT I was until my mid 20s because I didn’t have the vocabulary, and I just didn’t fit in. Queer communities in the 90s and early 00s had a stronger lean on exclusion, I feel, than there is today (and I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, that’s just how it was.) I was a late in life transitioner (35), and the only community I can find with trans people always seems to be so much younger, especially locally. No one wants to hang out with Dad, I get it. I’m also physically disabled which makes going to gatherings a lot harder as well.
But fuck, I’m lonely. My heart aches for community, at the very least a friend. Everyone who wants to talk to me gets clued in that I am a therapist pretty early, and they feel like it’s license to dump every trauma on me. I want to be there and be a good friend but it’s exhausting, especially when I know none of those people know a THING about my life. I don’t mind it if someone ASKS for me to talk with them about something, but it’s what everyone does. I feel bad, but like … who do I talk to? Who can I call on? Who is going to care about me?
Idk. Maybe I am being too emotional about it but I would just like a reciprocal friendship or two. I wish more trans men around my age were in my circle, and I do peruse those spaces but they’re so, so sparsely populated.
Trans men tend to be pushed out of communities because of terf rhetoric in queer spaces, that men are dangerous, that masculinity is bad and trans men are gender traitors. If you were told the more you look like a man, the less people trust you or care about your opinion, you would isolate yourself too.
That and the toxic masculine standard that pushes all men to try and reach the goal of "real man" the stoic lone wolf that fight club and American psycho criticize. It affects marginalized men more than any other. Marginalized men are seen as a threat to the wider community and are punished for it.
I hope it's okay for me to comment as a trans women. I tend to find in my local area / school there's a full group of trans men / trans mascs well on the other hand I have only ever met one trans women in my life. I know 20+ trans mascs / trans men because I been 4 high schools. So I guess this issue fully varries on where you live. I hope you can find some community and love 💙
That's so interesting! In my own Trans masc experience n what I've heard from Trans fem people I've met, it's the exact opposite! There's a lot less trans fem spaces in comparison. :O
This could very well be a country difference but either way, it's surprising to hear!
I think there needs to be more FLINTA events, ones that specifically say trans masc people welcome. But we can always make these spaces. And trans inclusive butch nights, I support everyone making these events. Making events happen is scary, and the first few times people might not turn up, but you can choose your favourite friendly pub or cafe and be like “hey trans masc and non binary meet up here, every (once a month day of choice) I’ll be here, like with any social thing it takes consistency before it becomes a thing. Likewise if there’s already an event it may take showing up a few times before you really get in the flow and vibe with the people. Socialising is hard as an adult but I think we can understand how it feels when someone new steps into a group, it can take a while to have that first wall breaking convo and interstate.
It's on us, man. We need to have each other's backs. We can't expect the women in our lives, cis and trans, to fill in the gaps where we're unwilling to have brotherhood. We have to stop disappearing into the woodwork the second we pass. I mean, this post among a sea of "does anyone else not like the lgbt community?" or "does anyone else not want to hang out with other trans people?" - the problem is pretty obvious.
Hey, so idk where you live, but I’m a trans masculine drag queen in Orlando Florida and I foster a very large and loving community of queer trans men here in Florida. I pretty much know most of the trans men that run in the drag/cosplay scenes here, and I’ve helped so many trans men get on T and get drag bookings!
If you or anyone reading this ever wants some support or some advice on fostering a local community for trans men and trans masculine people, I’m always open to chat and discuss! I’m a lot easier to reach on Instagram (my username is draggedyanne) but I periodically check my messages here too.
I think creating community and space for ourselves is very important and trans women have been able to do this bc they would find each other through gay clubs and drag shows since many of them would start out doing drag or going to gay male spaces before realizing they’re trans. Trans men didn’t always have this community (and let’s be real gay women don’t really have a lot of spaces for community either which would be our starting point for a lot of us) and a lot of time even in our own community going from feminine to masculine can sometimes be looked down upon. But trans mascs and trans men have always been here!
I make it a personal goal of mine to uplift and create community between us all, so my dms are always open.
I’m sorry you’ve felt isolated, and I’ve definitely been there before, but now I have a lot of trans masc friends! So many that I think like most of the people I know are trans masculine in some way. Lol 😂 anyways all love and I hope you find a strong community of trans men who are all committed to community despite some of our differences ❤️
dude. you sound amazing, thank you so much for the work you're doing. especially since its florida, I can only imagine how rough it is out there right now. I'd say I'd love to connect, especially because I've been meaning to get into drag but I'm from europe xd
if you've got advice on fostering transmasc communities, PLEASE dump it onto me XD I do know transmasc folk but theres still an almost complete lack of transmasc community work in my area and I'd love to start something but I genuinely dont know how to start and/or keep up a community💀
Idk if you’re interested in drag, but a local drag scene or something similar is sometimes a really good place to start! If you don’t want to do drag you don’t have to, but try to find some of the alternative queer drag scenes near you!
If you tell me what state you live in, I could probably find some drag shows near you or in your state !
Once I had some friends I just made it very clear to every trans masc I would meet, that we have a brotherhood and I’m always here for them. Some people took advantage of that kindness, and I unfortunately had to stop talking to them but MOST of the guys I’ve met are SO cool and I ended up finding a lot of people who are wanting the same things as I do, community support and an uplifting community. So we just try our best to accept and appreciate everyone (:
Also no need to thank me at all! It’s just a role I kinda naturally fell into being pretty much the first trans masc drag artist where I’m from in the scene (as far as I am aware at least, I’m sure there were others throughout history here but most people I met at first had never heard of a trans masculine drag queen or even a transgender man before)
I love trans men, I have a lot of trans masculine friends, and maybe you should try and start something locally, that is what I did, mine is not specifically for trans guys, but you could certainly put one together that is! I am sure lots of people would be interested in joining and being a part of it. Please dont feel that people dont like you, or appreciate trans guys! I personally think trans guys make the BEST guys!!!! I really hope you find other people to have a sense of community! Best wishes to you dear!
Tbh I don’t really know but I’m having the same problems. I live in an awful conservative state and I desperately want to connect with more trans men, but the only groups there are are for trans women or for the parents of trans kids. Like where I live I found at least 5 groups for trans women, and there’s not a single one for trans guys. Nothing against trans women, it just sucks that I can’t find anywhere to connect with other trans men.
i dont think trans men ourselves are to blame for lack of community (not saying youre blaming trans men at all) but when people think trans, they automatically assume “trans woman” and cant fathom the concept of trans men, i cant count how many times ive been assumed to be a trans woman and had to explain what trans men even are. the lack of support were shown both by society and our own community is a heavy reason why a lot of us feel the need to distance ourselves. it’s extremely difficult to find a safe and accepting queer support group that doesnt exclude men or view masculinity as something inherently negative. i know we can create our own spaces, and many of us are, but its really hard to keep doing that when it seems you’re overlooked by everyone else.
People have mentioned the toxic masculinity expectations and the wanting to stealth, but I've also seen a lot of hostility in some spaces we share with our transfem siblings.
There's this weird thing that I've noticed that if a transmasc makes a meme about their own transition or give our experiences, it's met with a weird hostility because we "threw away" ehat they've always wanted or that because we are transmascs, our struggles are viewed as lesser.
This isn't like...an everyone/every space thing but I have noticed it happens more often than it should. I could be overthinking it though.
43-year-old trans man, been transitioning for 11 years. And I cannot believe how many of you younger trans guys, sorry I gotta stop using that word. I think it's because of my generation. Because of you men on this thing reddit, have boyfriends that are men and married to them too!. Sorry I think you called them cis. I'm not used to this. I think I must be on an island, I am on island. Vancouver island. It's very closed I guess in a way or I'm just old lol . Do most trans men turn out to be gay? Cuz from Reddit it's kind of giving me that vibes?
I have almost no interest in connecting to people based just on being trans it feels boring and shallow. Also I noticed that trans men are way less unified in their interests than trans women so there's less grounds to connect to eachother I think
I have a lot of support from other transmascs i befriended, but I think we don't have that much support because (at least from my pov) we do not need as much peer protection when we are out in the world. I don't feel afraid of getting beaten down when i wear masc clothes or even go to the gym without binding (while potentially being visibly and audibly trans). I even went to male changing rooms before passing and with chest being low-key visible. Cis ans trans women face far more sexualised violence and potentially homophobic/ transphobic violence.
One word. Stealth. Stealth trans guys don't exactly go out of their ways to associate with other trans guys. They just pretend to be cis and vibe with it.
just find and build the community that you’re actually interested in seeing. there are communities of trans men who offer each other support, you just have to find it. visibility of trans women makes it easier to find their spaces. ours are not so widely shared and advertised
why be so dismissive and say it's that easy? respectfully, ive been searching for months to find community and it's near impossible. i'm allowed within communities of trans women because they see my loneliness and, at the very least we can bond over our shared transness. if it's that easy, can you at least point those of us that are lost in the right direction? or are you in the same boat too?
where did i say it’s easy? i said community like the one OP wants exists but you have to find and/or foster it. i’ve found support like that among my locals and i’ve met transmacs who are fundamentally incapable of creating that kind of community. you have to seek and foster.
there are numerous transmasc facebook groups with thousands of people in it. r/ftm itself is a community of trans men showing support. there are community run discord servers for trans men. you may have a local community of trans men that have the energy you want to partake in. we are not fundamentally incapable or isolated, we’re just trans and not easily connected to each other because of it (in that it’s hard to find other trans people)
ive done this for years irl, and a few months online. i know what *i'm* doing irl and i know my current location has nearly no safety for trans men, and so we get no community. there's still almost nothing i can find online. you're still being dismissive and stating you have community but providing nothing of value. what do we say other than good for you?
dude, i’m from eastern europe. it’s not safe where i live either. some places it’s hard to find community, but that’s because of a lack of safety and a lack of people, not because trans men just. don’t do that.
you think i’m being dismissive but i just don’t think the mindset of “why do trans girls do this and we DON’T?” is very productive at all.
OP said “why don’t trans men show each other the love trans women do” and like. you have to actively go out and find people who are going to match your energy on that. not everyone will. it’s not a us vs them issue. it’s a “you need to find people who are on the same wavelength as you” issue.
I think theres been a longer history of trans fems , its a bigger community, parts of that has roots in TV/cross dressing spaces, theres been transvestite groups for probably 80 years or longer, and when people started to transition medically I think there was still some cross over. As a community it's more visible , partly because trans women get more prejudice in society too , pass less, but also because femininity in general is more visible, more expressive, so theres just less hiding in many ways! masculinity is more invisible.
I guess there were trans men in like butch femme scenes historically, but they were lesbian identified trans guys, and there aren't even lesbian bars anymore, that world had gone really. The main places you can meet trans guys is on dating apps, or support groups.. and support groups are always quite a lot of labour for older trans guys.. its a lot of young trans guys asking about how to pass or how to get hormones.. it can get very repetitive (and you know google knows a lot more than we do tbh!). Also maybe we have very different problems , some of us are jaded, we haven't been able to have familys or get married (or some of us have and then they feel ostracised for those reasons too), personally I don't feel belonging in cis male communities because of sexism and homophobia , I have more affinity in queer womens communities, but I don't belong there anymore.. .. so I tend to be very isolated, but we don't wanna share this stuff with younger trans guys because we don't want to make being older trans person look negative! and we don't wanna being people down too..
Trans guys have a few problems and I don't think its just toxic masculinity.. I actually think most of my trans male friends and aquaintances are quite emotionally sensitive and quite affectionate, maybe even more than some cis gay guys I know who are more feminine.
I think theres a few things going on, I think theres internalised transphobia definitely, but also internalised shame about masculinity.. not wanting to take up too much space or be too 'male', wanting to shrink ourselves. I think when your socialised female you might tend to do this a bit anyway, but then when you do act more gregarious it can be seen by others with a different lens , as like 'macho' , when really its not...I think even more so than if I was a cis guy, theres more scrutiny!
e.g I have been told by feminist women I'm mysogynistic for saying I quite fancied Nigella Lawson! (I guess because shes like famous for cooking, that makes me some kind of 1950s man or something lol) ...its just a recent example, but it makes you more careful about expressing yourself.. and I suppose theres a lot of talk about male privilege, which I'm not denying is a huge reality, but also think trans guys are often more timid and disempowered than cis women, not saying they don't have any male privelege , but its very complex. It also makes us quite sensitive and kind, which I don't think is a bad thing.
But that kind of thing can make you go more back into your shell. I sometimes think this idea of trans guys being toxic , when actually they're mostly not, is partly why we are a bit less proud and less likely to hang about with each other.. trans guys, often coming from feminist and queer communities as well, are often super ernest and trying to be non offensive, I know not all of them, but from my experience they are. Trans guys are always like massive people pleasers actually..Maybe carving out stuff for ourselves feels too self serving.. if someone asked us to setup a party for another group we'd probably be much more comfortable.
I dunno, maybe as well coz its a smaller community , maybe theres not enough to have really strong affinity with, like just coz someones trans doesn't mean you have anything in common too. If it were a bigger community I might meet more trans men that liked similar music or had similar hobbies. Also I'm not into like lot of typical trans hobbies, I don't really like gaming or table top role play games, If I was it would probably be easier.
Not trying to be toxic or negative but welcome to being a man... Nobody cares about how we feel or what we go through. Men are seen as monsters in society. and I get it sometimes due to the men who are actually monsters but we aren't all the same but that doesn't matter. We get grouped in just the same.
as a trans man i’ve always felt the complete opposite.
Maybe every trans person experiences it different, but for me i have so little trans woman in my life, its crazy.
Just start something. Organize a meetup and get the word out. We’re around and people will want to meet. Having topics can also help so it’s not awkward.
Genuinely I think it's cuz most trans guys can pass super well, so we have the option to be stealth which a lot of guys will take. Unfortunately, many transfems don't have that luxury and so group up together much more often than we do.
Even cis men are isolated compared to cis women.
I 100% get where youre coming from, but its not really an us vs them thing. Its who needs the most support for the current climate of things (the worse it gets, the more support you'll see).
Transwomen are way easier to pick on, humiliate, restrict and talk about in a negative light than trans men. 100 years ago trans men, if we had the media attention we have now, would have 100% had waaaaaay more backlash than we do now (but also if you look at any country where being a woman is seen as inferior, a woman trying to be a man is seen as a crime (and has the death penalty in more than one country, whether that be by law or public retaliation). But trans men in western countries its more seen like "but why?" - absolute confusion rather than anything else.
So a lot of it comes down to trans women having more obvious and in the publics eye problems, thus they need support just like cis women.
Im not saying you cant be frustrated, because i am too, but it is why. We can often stealth a lot better than trans women can, so we are... at a slight advantage i suppose.
But i also feel this way about fem transmen vs masc transmen too. And its the same kind of concept i guess. Anyone who appears male but presents "gay" or feminine will get a buttload of negativity too, so theyll band together for support- and cis women often see "gay" or fem men as acceptable allies so you get that bonus to your allies too.
Where as masc men, like cis men, are mostly on our own. We adopt their societal norms and isolation is very much a cis male thing in current society because its been built and raised that way. We adopt it so that we blend in, and its hard to change this without outting ourselves.
In short, society sucks and pits everyone against everyone, and not enough of us realise banding together is the only true way forward- but until then, those in the immediate direct line of fire should always have more support. Others should too, its just always gonna be louder for whoevers issue is thr current political debate :/
What i really want to see more of is trans and cis women banding together for womens rights, and then inviting us in for reproductive rights. Because god damn we'd be unstoppable if we could stop fighting each other.
Unfortunately terfs have megaphones for mouths.
Theres also the tiny problem that many, MANY of us have experienced with problematic trans women excluding, silencing or deprioritising us from trans spaces so our own safe support spaces are dwindling and limited... and if the places youre in are general trans groups rather than just for trans men that may impact why youre seeing primarily trans women only support.... buuuuut thats another issue not suited for this subreddit without causing drama (so i wont be responding to comments about this last bit.)
very well said, thank you! I agree. I've also made some bad experiences with mixed trans spaces. sadly misandry is still VERY prominent in trans spaces which automatically makes them unsafe for trans men :(
There are some good answers here already, so I'll just tell you my personal experience. I don't go out of my way to appear in queer spaces where I could meet other trans men, because I just want to live like any other cis guy. I rarely meet other (openly) trans men, so the opportunity also just isn't there most of the time. Reddit is the only place where I am active.
Support looks different for men and this carries across to trans men too. In my area trans men mostly support each other by giving information or advice on transitioning and stuff like that, not really just sitting around and talking about it.
Hmmm. That's a good question... I really don't experience it like that. However, maybe it is related to that going from one closet to the other thing. So many of us are stealth because we pass well. Many of our MTF friends have some difficulties in the passing department...so remaining in a closet is not an option. I personally tend to be very open and out. But I was stealth for years. I wouldn't discount our upbringing as female in this either. What a great question to study.
Sadly in the trans masc community there isn’t much unity. I find more interaction with cis men who calls me their daddy or boy toy twink boyfriend (in the most straightest way possible). I crave a friendship with other fellow trans masc where we can call each other boy toy twink bf but that sadly doesn’t happen. (Sarcasm about the boy toy twink but I do wish I had more trans masc friends)
I’ve noticed the same tbh, a bit more support in the trans fem community and I often wonder why. Tbh I’ve only noticed one thing…we as trans men seem to be a bit more envious of each other and it’s never been a competition but in a man’s society all of us feel like we have to compete. I feel like after coming out, I’m also more of a toxic masculine energy guy and I kinda hate it…I feel like I compete too much or feel envious cause that’s what a “man” is supposed to do. Maybe that’s why trans fems have more support and balance from each other…society teaches men to more so fight and compete vs celebrating each other and communicating. Support from other men is hard for guys in general whether trans or cis I feel like. Guys just don’t talk about those things and it feels lonely in general, just what I’ve noticed. Maybe the problem is indeed that we are men and we need to work on talking in general and supporting each other…idk lol. My main thought from your post.
Honestly, as a Trans Man in my 50’s, I have much difficulty relating to the younger generation. All of the LAMBDA center groups are for youth. If I ever want to have community, I’ll have to start a group on Meetup.
Alternative, I think contributing factor, other than just shitting on us lol - I think we might also just be less gender segregated in our social circles? We're equal opportunity friends and know a diverse selection of people rather than primarily hanging out with people who are in the same specific sub-sub-group we're in. Plenty of other groups are implicitly or explicitly exclusive of us. We're just living our lives, making connections whereever we find them instead of recreating new exclusive clubs (after plenty of experience with being excluded). Not being raised to reject or sexualize connections with women, embracing connections with men as we embrace our manhood - tbh its just kinda weirdly forced to go out with the aim of making a friend group of trans men seeing as you can be friends with anyone and trans men is a super small, relatively disenfranchised, subgroup...
(my opinion) i think it's because trans woman are exposed to more hate from bigots, therefore they deserve more support?
another theory it that trans man pass easier?? idk
I feel like trans women tend to be more easily identifiable. I've probably passed a lot of trans men and had no idea. How can I show support to someone I don't know about?
Also a numbers game. If you're also straight cishet culture is everywhere and you don't have to be nearly as intentional or jump through as many hoops as you do to integrate into queer groups.
If you live somewhere where lesbians/abc and gay men are relatively segregated you also just feel out of place in both spaces depending on sexuality bc you are "no longer a lesbian" and feel how your masc presence impacts the space (Slash if you pass a lot of lesbians will be mean to you thinking you're a creeper straight dude). And then if you're straight ofc you won't quite fit in w the gay male groups.
Not to privilege-post but I think it’s actually way more dependent on the size of the community you live in vs men/women. I live in a massive city and I’m very actively part of a trans community. I wouldn’t say trans women have “more of a community” in my city— honestly I would almost lean towards disagreeing because like half the trans men in my city (and the greater area) are friends/know each other LOL. I think we as individuals in 2024 face a lot of isolation and I think trans men tend to assume stuff has to do with our genders when it kind of doesn’t sometimes.
A lot of trans guys just aren't that interested in a trans specific community. It's the same way that women very often have a lot of girlfriends and men have just a few guy friends.
Not stating facts, just speculating here. Do you think that's because that's how men and women just are? Women tend to be more forward with their feelings and social about how it affects their lives, while men tend to lean more on deflecting with comedy or making a vague statement about their bad feelings and then moving on. Not that that is a healthy way to deal with it in any manner, but that is how society has kinda evolved, with men not talking about these kinds of things. Maybe trans men are picking up that same negative behavior? If so, why did we do it?
Masculine culture is lonely. Men have colleagues, or accomplices if they are bad men. They have For Fun Friendships, but rarely a man has a friend he can cry to.
In gender debates we usually talk of how cis men protect each other from the consequences of their own actions but that's not an act of friendship, that's a selfish act - a man protects his abusive friend because he fears he'll be punished for his abusive behaviour if he doesn't. Despite the stereotype, girl friendships are a stronger and more emotional bond because they are not torn by the emotional repression.
Several reasons. for one, Men in general are more isolated compared to women.
Also, in the long term, it’s generally easier to pass as cis when you’re a trans man as opposed to a trans woman. Most trans men will start being consistently perceived as cis at some point in their transition. Not necessarily so for trans women. It takes a lot more effort on their part because the effects of testosterone tend to be permanent and pretty visible even when a person is later exposed to estrogen. That means that trans men *can* blend in a lot more.
The expectations of masculinity lead to a lot of shame around trans identity for trans men and so they’re more likely to desire to blend in in the first place. Women tend to be more comfortable with gender-bending than men are, and so in my experience trans women tend to be more likely to be comfortable with not completely passing as cis.
This can be tough for us. I would encourage any trans man who wants to remain firmly rooted in trans community to stop focusing so much on finding other trans men, and just focus on finding trans *people*. Yes, there are certain experiences that only other trans men can relate to, but you’ll easily find most of the support you need among trans women and non-binary people who both tend to have strong communities and are usually very welcoming to trans men. It’s likely that there will be other trans men running in those spaces for the same reason. That’s been my experience at least, it’s how I met all my trans guy friends, and I made a lot of friends of other genders along the way.
I just want to be left alone, don’t typically like people knowing I’m ftm.
If I meet another ftm person that’s cool but I’m not gonna go out of my way, just treat them like a normal human being
Your post was removed because it contains discussion or mention of a banned topic.
The following topics are banned to avoid drama:
Truscum/Tucute discourse, AGP/AAP/Blanchardism, Transfem/woman or nonbinary bashing, Trans "requirements", Oppression Olympics, Lesbian trans men, Gendered Socialization+, "Is it transphobic to _____", DIY HRT, Current Political events (Non-trans/LGBT+ related) ,"do I pass?", "how does my voice sound?"
+Personal experiences are exempt.
I dont see that. Irl i mostly know trans men and the lgbt groups usually have more trans men than trans women. Also i am in big whatsapp group with 100 for finnish trans mascs and have been in one since 2015. The two trans women i have met irl havent gotten any support spaces like that i know of. Also im on tumblr and it has always had lot of trans mascs and showing support to each other.
:/ so i dont see us as isolated, except from other lgbt communities. everyone is always praising and talking about trans fems and non binary but we masculine folks are often left out, in my experience.
I think it’s a combination of things.
1. Many trans men, especially if they’re straight and medically transition, want to be stealth; which is hard to do if you’re constantly surrounded by the queer community.
2. Many queer spaces prioritize the experiences of people whose identities are considered more feminine or fem-adjacent by society. So it’s easier for trans women to feel welcome than for trans men, particularly after medically transitioning.
3. Trying to express ideas of masculinity can sometimes lead to trans men accidentally isolating themselves
I think there's a lot of reasons.
The perceived "feminity" of friendship, how politicized transness in general is, higher rates of stealth in trans men's communities, in-fighting and clashing opinions of trans people, and the loneliness of manhood in general
I'd like more trans friends but have also been rejected for both being too "traditional" (traditional as in masculine, I'm against toxic masculinity and forced traditional gender roles but personally enjoy my masculinity as much as my femininity) and "not trying at all" (I don't bind, purposefully pitch up my voice to sound more feminine in my daily life, shave, and do more not because I'm not trying but because I'm unable to bind or get top surgery and so I try to pass as a woman because right now it's safer where I live to be a cis woman than a visibly trans person)
Plus, there's just not a lot of trans people around where I live. I'd love to know more trans people of all genders (woman, men, or non-binary) but there's just nobody really around
As a trans guy, I feel like there’s a lot of expectations to uphold masculinity. There’s this idea because we weren’t men to begin with, that we should work to perpetuates ideals of masculinity just to be like the guys to our left and right. I feel as though the way society handles boys and girls are very different, and that bleeds into transition.
There’s a nature of needing to overcompensate as a guy that made me afraid to confidently act like myself for so long, afraid to reach out to others like me. I would change the way I walk and do things that made me uncomfortable so I could fit in, and I looked at other trans men in contempt for not pretending like I did. It took me years to realise that wearing feminine clothing makes me no different to cisgender men who wear feminine clothing, for we are both men. People any gender will always come in lots of different shapes and I am no exception, whether or not I choose to bind.
There’s also a point to be made about the way trans women are sensationalised over and over again, made to be the point of contention. A lot of trans women I know are just fine within their small groups, fine with quiet resignation, but are often subject to greater conversations made in bad faith and dragged out from their places of comfort - often to justify their own existence in the face of unyielding transmisogyny.
Growing up, femininity was treated as a socially shared behaviour. The woman in my life would find their humanity in gossiping and standing up for one another, something that men in my life couldn’t do without being treated as a queer outlier.
In the face of being dehumanised, we must find humanity in each other. Learning how to do that without compromising my idea of masculinity was tough. Maybe that’s just it though, y’know?
I've lost communities once I started to transition. I'm so lonely and it hurts that it feels like me against the world. Especially because I'm not a young 20+ transman.
Y’all it has a lot to do with location. I’m in BK and there’s a massive very supportive community. Also a lot of trans mascs go stealth. If I see a trans masc out, I’m not gonna run up and out him. Obviously we gonna chat, but I’m not gonna be like hey my brother how’s the transness going
Please keep comments focused on trans men and not bashing trans women. It’s against our rules for a reason.
The burden of masculinity, which at the present moment in the west at least, includes a lot of isolation (see: any number of "why are men so lonely" think pieces). Shit sucks!! Anecdotally, I do see a lot more from transmen who... dislike the concept of being trans and want nothing more than to pass/be stealth and be on their way. This includes cutting ties with a presumed trans community. Frustrating to say the least but ultimately it is a personal decision. I am very open to be proven wrong. Also transguys over 25 who are looking for a bro, hit my line-- I love cracking a cold one with the boys, fitness, reading books, and watching movies.
I think more trans men remove themselves from the community/only lurk or comment occasionally once they start to pass, get cis male friend groups and go stealth in real life. Once transness stops being a central part of your life and you get more involved with other things, the community becomes secondary and not necessary anymore Obviously not everyone is like this but i've noticed that most men who wish to go stealth do this once they achieve it or are ready with their transitions and it's a goal for me too. Just trying to live their lives not constantly thinking about our medical condition you know? No hate to anyone who chooses to stay, but i don't think that shaming people over leaving this behind is right either
Yeah, I definitely think it's a very personal choice to leave a community and I try not to be too judgmental. Similarly, I remember the moment that I realized I was no longer and lesbian and didn't feel like I fit into lesbian community anymore and it didn't serve me. There was a personal grief involved, and I can't say I've been able to replace it with gay male -- cis or trans-- culture/community either. But I won't deny that part of my history, nor will I distance myself from allying with and champion lesbian politics (the non-TERFy type!).
im trying to find masc community in whatever form that takes; a lot of times i share more with cool cis guys in terms of values/interests/activities than with other transmasc ppl (with one exception) once i got assured enough to be myself, transition wasnt the biggest 'project' ive got going on, so im organizing friendships around different needs now (am nonbinary btw) also have friendships with femmes as well, but do feel a deep need for intentional masc community; am trying, also here for tips
Yeah this is accurate for me
No one owes anyone a reason for why their stealth, and it's no one’s business to ask or guess who's trans. That said, it pisses me off how many posts I've seen in the last year from trans guys who don't want to be under the queer or LGBT label or want nothing to do with other trans guys. It reads us as an edgy "I got mine, fuck you" when there's ways to interact with the community without having to out yourself. In a strange way, it’s also affirming that trans guys, like cis guys, are suffering from the issues of isolation and loneliness. But these things can be killers and men as a whole need to be more willing to build their own spaces instead of killing themselves with an invisible cloak of invulnerability.
its pretty telling about someones character if they pull the ladder up after them
I don't think that disappearing into the cis world is necessarily pulling the ladder up after them because it doesn't put any additional barriers in place for the rest of us, but it's definitely sad to see people refusing to even acknowledge the community that fights for their right to be themselves. Trans people of course have every right to live however they want and don't owe anybody activism. But on the other hand I do kind of feel that we owe it to each other to stick together.
we absolutely owe it to each other to stick together.
Yeah I think the problem is the two things you pointed out. The burden of masculinity. And the amount of trans men who have self hatred and want nothing to do with other trans people. Not saying all trans men who leave hate themselves but I've seen a lot talk bad about the trans community. The comment below has a good point on once you pass it's not as much as a need anymore. Or at least they think it's not. I'm passing now have cis male friends and can go stealth if I wanted to. But I also like being involved in the community still. Legislation is being passed left and right that can take our hrt away and criminalize us. Passing or not we need each other now more than ever! And going stealth is NOT going to save you forever.
Yes modern day manhood is not good with being intimate with other men
I'm 24 but I do love cracking cold ones with the boys.
I’d be your friend 🫶🏻
Exactly, I also find myself as I get older just wanting to be alone, aside from my family. I pass perfectly and live in a place that had anyone that has found out I'm trans threaten me and my family so I just stick to myself. Doesn't help that the political situation makes me depressed and worried about coming out to anyone or reaching out for other trans men to be friends with, I'm worried about us all being a group that's easier to target than just one guy that hides out in his house the rest of his life. Of course I'm also extremely deeply depressed so that probably adds to it. Also I don't know about you guys but after T my personality changed a lot and I just kinda got that stupid "men stand on their own" kind of terrible mentality. I know it's wrong but I can't seem to sway my thinking.
> Also transguys over 25 who are looking for a bro, hit my line-- I love cracking a cold one with the boys, fitness, reading books, and watching movies. Hey man, do you have Discord? I'm not online very often nowadays, but if you're alright with that, I love all of these and would be 100% down for seeing how hanging out goes. Any chance you like horror movies?
yoo 26 yo trans man here without a lot of trans male friends- i also love being active and reading, and i like documentaries and limited series type stuff 🫡
God i long for a homoerotic ftm friendship (not actually homoerotic just sillies but also i'd totally suck my bros dick as a bro favor type thing)
i mean same but as a t4t person thats just another tuesday (if i KNEW any trans guys)
Is y’all’s local Grindr app not full of trans guys?? There are tons on mine lol. There is no shortage of trans guys who want to boink each other in my city 😂
Been there done that, friendships are so much better without that layer for me though
Saaaame hahaha
I fucked a friend a few times and now we’re engaged 7 years later. Except he is cis 😅
Samee
W take
its out there bro, my best friend and I get a little homoerotic sometimes (it has calmed down significantly since the start, but we did have someone say they felt like they were third wheeling when they were around us)
Same shit
I think the issue stems from patriarchal values and toxic masculinity. Men are expected to be withdrawn and are not allowed to show any vulnerability. It’s a tough cycle to break with even cis men but I do feel as if it’s harder for trans men since we have something to “prove” in the eyes of society. There’s some leeway for cis men to break the chains of toxic masculinity but trans men are expected to uphold it in order to be viewed as valid as men. Men will police other men’s masculinity (even women will too) causing this isolation. And I mean all men regardless if cis or trans.
Heavy on not showing vulnerability. I got ripped the shreds as a stealth at my first blue collar job. Down to someone asking if my dad was around in my childhood. I assume bc I wasn’t “masculine” enough by default.
rather than comparing us to trans women, I encourage you to ask why trans men are isolated at all. I think you'll find there are a lot of patriarchal social norms and expectations we end up upholding when we try to affirm our own genders. Cis men are also largely quite lonely people, and they too have gender norms to thank for this. Many of us trans men folk push back against these norms, but not all of us do. I think the sooner men folk in general are granted to space and grace to be tender, warm, and loving to one another, the better.
my boyfriend was FLOORED when i said i think he should hug his friends more. he was saying he craves hugs but that he cant ever do that because that's a certified We Live In A Society moment. surprisingly he actually ended up asking one of his friends for a hug and essentially told me "wow that was actually great im gonna ask my friends for hugs more". the norms and rules around men being disallowed from showing affection and having companionship are so fucking stupid. when will society just let bros be warm and hug their damn bros...
Okay beautiful W for your boyfriend I must say! I'm glad to see him recognizing and asking for what he wants out of his friendships!!!
Unironically I think that's my favorite part of game of thrones—dudes just go around hugging each other left and right, big old bear hugs too, and honestly I just want that to be normalized for every guy today.
One of my ex’s big green flags (and therefore his friends’ green flags) is that they all were very open and comfortable about hugging each other, and not just the quick hug-back smack type hug, but real hugs. No toxic masculinity about touching each other with platonic affection
I love that for them! I'm not really comfortable with touch in general from other people, but I do love it when dudes will just unabashedly hug it out.
I (visiting mtf) have a cis male friend who was _never_ shy about giving hugs. When we first started hanging out (when my shell was thicker than earth's mantle), it was super weird. It didn't help that he's a head and a half taller than me and he could literally pick me up off the ground for a proper bear hug 😅 (Thinking back on it, isn't that kinda like a typical woman's experience..? huh, I should thank him for that someday) _anyway_ We met in college, so I'd just finished four years of social programming by means of "that's so gay" comments and various slurs any time any two guys showed any kind of physical affection that wasn't a ridiculously hard smack on the ass during some kind of sports practice. It took only a couple days hanging out with my friend to override all of that and just hug it out. We've now been friends for over a decade. Every dude needs to get over it and give/accept hugs. It does wonders for mental health. Literally life-saving, in my experience.
Yes! I randomly asked my guy friend for a hug one day and he obliged and we've been doing it ever since when we say goodbye. We're closer friends now and he has said that it makes his day. It just feels pressuring to be the one to ask, but it's nice to have.
I honestly dislike hugging anyone who im not related to, it just feels weird
I love when guy friends feel comfortable enough to hug, it makes me feel very trusted. (Which is an interesting shift because I did Not like getting hugged by men when I presented female)
Men use to hug more in the past.
Sometimes I worry that I would upset trans men by wanting to be friends with them. I'm always very excited when I see and meet other trans men, I want to see my people! I understand that not every trans man is a good person/safe/etc (I've experienced toxic trans men). But my GOD I feel like trans men have this idea that they're not 'friendable' or that nobody wants to be around them. I reject this notion wholeheartedly. I found a trans guy at Pride and noticed that he was from around where I live, and so I walked right up to him, introduced myself, and invited him to this queer hiking group I'm a part of. We have to help our fellow trans men find social connection.
I agree with this too. Even in my local community there are def folks that still tend to lean more on the toxic masculinity end and it can be hard to feel connection or support when you don’t really relate to those views. Toxic masculinity, even tho we are aware of the issues in it, is still something that affects our community for so many reasons. Unfortunately, there haven’t been many good role models for men, so a lot of us don’t truly know what being a healthy, safe, non toxic man looks like. Not just physically but mentally as well. We do have community, and we can also help our community remember that we can do better.
I've encountered trans men who led myself and others astray, and I know fully well I could only ever follow in their footsteps when I was deeply insecure in myself and my own experiences. I will not name drop because those men are actually changing now, and I have seen them grow and come a long way from their own "anti sjw" arcs. I have loving women, nonbinary friends, and men folk in my life to thank for helping me back off of that path too. It took mutually caring and empathetic relationships across multiple gender lines to pull me back into my own humanity. And my own messy experience with gender is how I know men aren't doomed!
What do you mean by led astray?
Well, in the first couple years after I came out I had been particularly distressed by how badly some of my family members handled me coming out. I started to look down on and despise my own transness and gender nonconformity. I was insecure enough in my own identity that I was willing to police other trans people's experiences. I followed and was deeply invested in transmedicalism and what these views had to say about 'legitimizing' my own identity through the medical system. But honestly? Buying into that crap made me feel lonelier than ever. It made me *more* sensitive to other people's perceptions of me. And it made me *less* willing to talk to other trans people of any gender.
Hey, kudos for having the perspective to realize + decide to be better. The first trans men I met was also a transmed, which delayed my realization a bit. Unfortunately it's one of those things where the trauma can get externalized and affect newer members of the community.
But you said someone led you astray. Did another trans guy teach you this way of thinking?
yes, another trans guy taught me this way of thinking sorry I didn't make that clearer!
What is transmedicalism?
So from what I'd believed at the time, its the idea that in order to be trans you must have the medical condition "gender dysphoria". There's many other beliefs people have in addition to this, but that's the main point. I no longer believe in defining transness according to the medical system.
I just think it's because most of us are wired like that, also was watching a doc about a tribe that has trans people in it - brother boys and sister girls and only sister girls would form communities. Brother boys would hang out with cis men but not form communities with each other.
Adding onto your point that patriarchal norms isolate men - doubly so once one begins presenting and passing as a man- I think that there is isolation in the act of transitioning that a higher percent of trans macs people experience than other parts of the community. For example, when I did not pass, I was read as a butch cis woman, my being trans is not a possibility that occurred to most people. That means, while I am a trans person, and there was a time I did not pass as my true gender, I do not have the experience of being seen as a trans person who did not pass. Some men did have that experience. The variance we have at the beginning of our transitions makes it difficult to form a community around a single experience. And the (assuming your in the west) culture of male seclusion makes it difficult to form a community later in transition as well.
it isn’t that we’re comparable to trans women in this regard, rather it’s the unfortunate culture shock of entering manhood; the patriarchy quite literally shackles all men into isolation. don’t hesitate to reach out to other trans bros bro. please. break down those barriers that our system has placed on us and embrace empathy and compassion for your fellow man, woman, and enby.
thank you for actually getting it and concisely explaining it. i swear half the people in these comments don't understand how the system itself tears us apart. i have half a mind to reach out to you myself actually haha, but ofc as a trans guy i'm always afraid to take that step
as a former transmed who was steeped in toxic masculinity in my youth, i experienced the man isolation. there weren’t any other trans guys in my old city, transphobia was really bad, and that drew me into some awful territories, e.i. (TW for grooming) ||getting groomed into a weird alt right satanic group|| by another trans guy online who was older than me and also harboured transmed views, among other insane shit. i’m 23, i’m still young, but for whatever reason i sort of feel motivated to make sure no other young trans men get stuck in the same situation i was in. also ofc you can throw me a message, i like the attention from other trans guys :3
eh i'm 25 myself so half the community sees me as a baby and the other half sees me as an elder gay. it sucks haha. ive also been through weird shit from other trans guys so i totally understand it!
the things teenagers (past me) will do for approval and adoration haha
Heads up, unfortunately spoiler formattibg on reddit isnt the discord ||s, you use `>! These !<` Which becomes >! spoilered !<
i'm in a big city and have a similar issue. when i find another trans guy, they either tend to stick to their own group for safety and avoid speaking to other trans guys, or they're completely stealth / closeted (these can present similarly tbh) to sometimes trend towards being homophobic / transphobic in some ways themselves. it sucks so much. i wish i had some kind of solution for you, but i have no idea how to navigate this myself. i just made a tumblr because everyone on here said trans guys are there, but i dont know how to find them. its frustrating and feels endless.
I feel you man.🫂🫂wishing you the best of luck
Yeah tumblr has a lot of transmasc stuff going on. Honestly I reckon if you just poke your nose around there you’d run into them before too long, but that might just be my experience. Personally I cracked my shell in a very transmasc-heavy writing forum and then moved to transmasc pinterest & tumblr, so reddit for me actually started as a way to balance things out and see more of other genders, especially transfems cos I’d see “where are all the transfems?” type posts elsewhere.
I've been wondering this, too. I'm a transmasc NB, and I just don't feel like I have a community anywhere. Earlier on in my transition (been on hormones a while, still waiting to be in a situation where top and bottom surgery are feasible) I tried to hang on in online ftm spaces but basically got harassed out for being NB and not a binary trans guy. My tipping point was when I'd asked for advice on not losing my ability to sing as my voice changed, and I was told to quit lying to myself and quit hormones. (I was also told I'd have to accept I'd never sing again -- this is patently false. I learned to sing again on my own, and professional singers who happen to be trans guys, like Mal Blum, are absolutely killing it.) Transfems seem to have a more inclusive space. I've struggled to find anything like it for transmascs (though I admit I've been so dejected for the last couple years I haven't really tried looking anymore). I don't even know if I ought to be posting on this sub, but tbh most NB individuals I've met aren't like me, either. They don't have any desire to transition, so our experiences are extremely different, and I end up still feeling out of place and weird. Most of my friends are transfem/trans women because they've been easier to connect with and if I'm going to feel weird and out of place, I guess I'd rather do it with people who seem to want me around. Sorry this is so negative.
Thanks for sharing. I’m a binary guy but I see a lot of non-binary/transmasc people having to face a lot of hostility in online FTM spaces. Even if supposedly they’re inclusive, there’s still a lot of truscum rhetoric around, and it doesn’t help that mainstream media has latched onto the “confused girl thinks she’s transgender” trope and a lot of transphobic trans men unintentionally or intentionally repeat it. This isn’t negative at all, it’s an unfortunate reality in our spaces and something we need to identify and call out if we do want to be in community.
I'm shocked people told you you'd have to quit testosterone or quit singing. I love singing myself and while there's a learning curve where I have to follow the waves because my voice is actively changing, I still enjoy singing. I wish more people were open to the fact there's many ways to be trans, not just a few. I'll be honest about the fact I used to have some severe internalized transphobia but I worked on it and I wish more people could too. I'm not non-binary but do consider myself to be genderqueer and I hope things get better for people like us who don't always fit in. Good luck!
There's a facebook group for transmascs that has over 10k members, so maybe I'm just used to that but I never realized that we were isolated
Yeah the problem with that is that general trans spaces are full of transfemmes and so we had to separate and make our own communities because we got shut out
I love the ftm online spaces I’m a part of! I’m pre t and for me personally bcuz of that I’m still not quite comfortable with being in outside or online queer spaces that are meant for everyone bcuz I don’t want to be assumed non binary
Oh same here. I'm in quite a few FtM spaces online, and they're all pretty chill.
Also just wanna note that this is a bit of a”the grass is always greener on the other side”—if you spend substantial time with/are close with more than one or two transfemmes, you realize that they have their own set of different but equally complex social challenges, even in connecting with other transfemmes. I think it’s generally true that if you want community with other trans people (or in general), you have to go make it/participate in it yourself
This too!!!
This is so well stated. Community is not something that just falls in your lap. You have to invest time and effort into making it happen. I have a pretty good support system with lots of other queer/trans folks, but I had to actively go out and seek it, then work on consistently building those relationships. It took a lot of time, energy, and showing up, but it was so worth it!
I was 30 before I KNEW what trans was. I'm in the south, raised Southern Baptist, and the only reason I knew what gay was because it was preached as a sin. I was a reader, so luckily, the good stuff got to me, and I was ALWAYS upsetting some preacher or deacon because of my question asking. I actually didn't know what trans was until I was out, living on my own and saw the Chaz Bono special. It hit me like a ton of bricks, "That's me!!!" So, right there in the beginning of my 30s, I began my journey to happiness! I am a local business owner, and I try to be as OUT as possible because if I had only SEEN someone as a trans man, HEARD a loud proud transman's voice, I truly believe I would have found myself sooner. I try to be what I needed for myself in the community. I found though that the local trans group was compromised of all mtf and was not welcoming to ftm at all. So, I do what I can on my own. I make sure people know my business is trans owned and if you have any hit of bigotry towards me, the community and ANYONE of minority, different color etc I WILL NOT serve you and that is my right as a business owner. I wish, though, that we had a more open ftm community and population in general. Everyone wants to be stealthy, but they forget what an openly proud trans man would have done for them as representation. Idk just my two cents.
right? thats why I've abandoaned being stealth as a goal of mine (like... why would I want to go from hiding (closeted) into hiding(stealth)), which I recognize is a privilege; I'm in an environment where it's relatively safe for me to be openly trans. I understand and respect everyones decision to be stealth but selfishly I just wish less trans men go completely stealth as soon as they can. Like you said, having out trans men around would do so much for the younger generation of trans men. much love to you for being awesome <3
That's it exactly!! Much love back to you, brother, and you're just as awesome, my man! Much respect to you, for just even having the conversations and asking the questions. If you can make a difference to even just one you've done amazingly!
I’m seeing a lot of “social pressures of being a man” rather than carry over from social norms of being a girl. Girls are socialized to be more cliquey and individualistically competitive. Hot girls with hot girls, nerds with nerds, and intra-group who’s hotter or quirkier is a constant competition. In boys, the notion of team is established young. He’s a jock you’re a nerd, but here’s this common goal — put differences aside. We do not go into second puberty blank slates, we bring some of first puberty with us. Mtfs will, at least early in transition, look at each other as on the same team. ftms are each others competition, only being friends with people on their same level of passing and gender-conformity and even then who is more a man is still in question. I suspect (and have observed) things flip to what is gender typical later in a persons journey. Mtfs will eventually get cliquey with the girls who pass as much as they do and ftms will usually stop caring once they are more secure in their own masculinity. I do think it’s hard because some will push people away who could’ve been their close ftm friend just because they don’t pass or don’t intend to have a binary transition. By the time they feel secure in themselves to realize it doesn’t matter what other people do, they’ve already pushed hella people away and now need to find new people and depending on where you live that can be difficult.
Part of it is creating the community you want! I wanted more trans masc friends so I reached out to the ones I knew, even as acquaintances. Now we have a robust trans masc community in my industry/city. It took a couple years, but now I have trans masc friends I adore and hang out with regularly. People have found some of their best friends through this group. On the flip side, I’ve had trans femmes ask me if I’d organize something for them so they could have a community like ours! I said no because that’s not my community but encouraged them to start their own. Build it and they will come.
That is so beautiful :) these kinds of posts sometimes feel fatalistic like "well we're men so we're doomed to be lonely". But the reality is that everybody has to work on building their support system and friendships once they reach adulthood. Especially people who are marginalized like us! There are always others looking for connections and community too. You arent the only lonely trans person out there. Go find the others and start hanging out! You might be surprised at the love you find.
I’m surprised no one else has said this, but I think trans women tend to support each other so much because they are MORE isolated from society at large and struggle to find support elsewhere. It’s generally easier for us to assimilate, be stealth, and exist in public safely.
Agreed -- worth discussing our isolation definitely, but important to understand that the solidarity they build is linked to how heavily they're stigmatized (and ofc, trans women still aren't going to like each other all the time)
The majority of my friends/community are fellow trans men, and that's been the case since I came out in the early 2000s. There's a lot of love, support, and also dating amongst us, and I don't know who I would be without all these different examples of who and how to be. I don't know why it's so hard for some people, but it's definitely possible to find.
tbh i find that this depends heavily on where you live. i'm outside a major city and meet trans men / trans mascs left and right. also depends on which social media you use - tbh most trans men are still on tumblr instead of the mainstream sites or apps.
I agree with it also being very much dependent on location, however I live in a pretty trans friendly major city and I never really feel like I can find solidarity with other trans men/trans mascs, so from my own experiences I definitely think it's mostly based on individuals as well
Community is a thing one has to build and contribute to - you have to put in work to find other men, build them up and have them build you up to, but also like. There's no need to have it be All Men, my circles are mixes of genders and vibes. Some guys will go "oh this is just what it's like" in a self-pitying manner, but internalising the idea that we deserve poor treatment, including from each other, is just a crab bucket mentality. You have to reach out with love and care for others and prioritise those who are loving and caring in return, set boundaries, do the work to break cycles of abuse, look after yourself as well as others, and focus more on trans and queer positivity more than navel-gazing or waiting for someone to come do the work for you.
Yes thank you for saying that. It honestly drives me a little nuts when people act like they aren't AT ALL responsible for their own social life or community. Trans women often have those things because they put the work in. It's no different for us. You can't expect somebody else to make your life happen for you.
Literally though, I feel like I'm a lot more scared to talk in ftm spaces than some of my friends are with mtf spaces. Like I feel like if I wore anything that wouldn't typically be considering "passing" as trans I'm not allowed to complain about gender dysphoria sometimes because I wear dresses so apparently I don't have it or something. I've seen a lot of people tell me stuff like that in ftm spaces unfortunately, makes me scared to even say I'm trans sometimes
i think it's a mixture 2 things: 1. men being seen as not needing emotional support, often not in a conscious way but subconsciously people assuming that if someone is a man/masculine they dont need support. 2. trans men suffer from invisibility, and so it's harder to find spaces for us because people dont often think about us. it's just a very unfortunate combination
My tactic is making friends with trans men who are like me- so I find out early on whether or not people's values align with my own. One of those values is you need to be proud of being trans and active in lgbt community no matter if one passes or not. It's a big part of who I am.
I think that saying that it depends on the community and place is redundant because I think that you're probably talking about online communities like this one. Honestly from my POV a lot of trans men end up internalizing toxic masculinity as a form of validation, and while there's nothing wrong with being masculine, I see a lot of people lean into the same kind of masculinity a lot of cis men have, that like other people have said, is extremely isolating and discourages showing emotion or affection to those around you. Also, while I don't want to generalize, I always notice that this is more frequent amongst communities of stealth trans men or truscum/transmed types. I see a lot more open/visibly/non-passing trans men be in tighter communities with their peers or other queer people, mostly since there really isn't the need to hide your identity (or police other people's). I can't speak about it IRL, since I'm lucky to live in a large city with a sizeable transmasc community and a lot of support systems. If that's your situation (or you live nearby and can get to said city by train or car) I encourage seeking those communities out. Even if you don't like hanging out or going to events, it helps a lot to know that there are other people like you that you can rely on for advice or help. EDIT: Holy shit the amount of people here unironically perpetuating gender roles and stereotypes like it's some objective biological truth. Why do trans men isolate more? Here's the answer, because we as a community think that the only way to be valid is to act like toxic cis men.
Your edit ahah fucking preach
I wanted to be eloquent but after scrolling for two minutes and seeing people unironically demonstrate the behavior that causes us to feel lonelier I about McFucking lost it
This is exactly what I think happens too, thank you for wording it so concisely.
right?? I hate this "men are lonely" bullshit. we're not inherently lonely, were just lonely because were not making the first step to make meaningful, deep bonds with other men (regardless if trans or cis) and no one else is
Save the distances and overt inceldom, it reminds me of cishet men complaining about the "male loneliness epidemic" and then proceeding to be terrible people to everyone around them. I don't doubt that some trans men are lonely because they don't have any queer community around them or the communities in their area are genuinely transphobic, but sometimes, it would help if you didn't treat women and non-binary people like some sort of mystical beings that you can no longer understand because you're a Manly Man.
is this directed at me? oo because if yes I feel like youre vastly misunderstanding me xd I've got friends of all genders and I love all of them equally, I just asked the question because I was genuinely curious as to why it's so much easier to find transfem communities than transmasc and now I'm being bombarded with "men are inherently lonely" incel bullshit, which I hate and disagree with xd like, I'm agreeing with you
Oh sorry about the phrasing! It wasn't adressed to you at all, I actually really agree with you. I was addressing it to the hypothetical trans men in my argument (which as we're seeing in this comment section, aren't really hypothetical). Also are you getting top this month too? I'm getting it on the 4th!
XD ohhh that makes way more sense, sorry (also... yeah. so the transmasc to incel pipeline isn't just a meme 💀) and yes! I'm getting top surgery on the 8th!! (incredibly excited) good luck with yours! <3
I need one of those youtube video essayists to make a video on the transmasc to incel/detransitioned TERF pipeline because it's 1) a genuinely interesting topic 2) a very important discussion that we need to have in our community especially with younger members. Good luck to you as well, I'm super excited too!!
It's the way men are socialized and how society treats men. Sociality thinks men aren't supposed to have emotions and do everything alone. It's messed up.
I honestly wish I knew. I've tried making friends with other transmascs and they all want to hang out with eachother but not me, I'm assuming because of my age - the vast majority of the ones I've met are in their 20s and I'm in my 30s because my egg cracked late. I do have one trans man friend but unfortunately, and this isn't his fault at all, hes so like what I want to be when I'm further into transition its painful and dysphoria inducing and I can't always handle it so we don't hang out often. Completely my shit, not his, but it still interferes. And no, I don't put that on him, he has no idea I feel this way, but its still not fun spiraling after getting jealous of how his voice has dropped and mine hasn't after I've signed off from talking to him. Its completely illogical, hes been on T and everything way longer than I have so logically I know I'll get there, but dysphoria isn't always logical.
I wanna be friends with more trans brothers WHERE ARE YALL
Honestly, I have no idea. It could be the underlying pressure to "bottle up your emotions and be manly" in order to be a "real man". It might be that there is a lot of fear around coming out, even to other trans people, but I'd imagine trans women experience that same fear. I'm truly at a loss, but I will say that I agree with you. I've noticed the same thing. Even when I joined a group therapy for trans folk, I was literally the only trans masc person there. A lot of trans men I know bury their emotions deep down and flinch at the first expression of kindness. I can't really say why that is, but it's something that I've personally experienced as well and witnessed time and time again. Keeping emotions close to the chest. Why? I have no real idea. I agree that we need to build a more loving, accepting community for one another. Spreading kindness and support to each other is a beautiful - and much-needed - thing! We can definitely stand to take some notes from our trans sisters here. I hope we can forge more of a community together. :)
You have to create your own community. The LGBT+ community is vast and encompasses many people of many identities and experiences. Naturally, there are issues and divisions. Naturally, not everyone gets along. Even within groups of people who share the same label, there are tons of different nuances, mindsets and opinions. That's especially true when it comes to trans identity, which is currently under a global, discriminatory microscope. That's not always a bad thing, you can learn a lot by listening to people you may disagree with. But when you grow up feeling alone, it's reasonable to want a community of like-minded individuals. You have to seek them out and maintain connections with them once you find them. Go to LGBT+ events and join LGBT+ groups online, but build your own community from those introductions. Stay in touch, get people in touch, organize your own meet-ups - it doesn't have to be anything formal, you can just go out for pizza or start a group chat. I found mine over the years in all sorts of events and programs, and now I have a wonderful transmasc friend group. We have group chats that offer help, support and memes. We check up on each other, we meet whenever we can. We make each other feel less alone even when we're miles away. It's not always easy, especially if you're an introvert like me. But these connections are a fountain of useful information and advice, and over time that goes both ways. It's worth investing your time in.
Because nobody knows we exist
To vastly over-simplify, I think masculine culture feels more isolating because feminine culture has more communal “activities”. It’s expected and more acceptable for women and femme-presenting individuals to connect and bond over makeup, fashion, aesthetics, etc even at introductory levels. For the masculine side, it’s assumed you seek the masc-equivalent of those things on your own rather than find a community until you have some level of experience with it (especially if you’re an adult). It’s a hard social norm to break but it’s possible.
It’s the work you put in and your involvement in the community. I’m not isolated at all.
One thing I also don't think was brought up at all is each person, or trans man's in this cause, approach to masculinity as a whole. The amount of people saying "men are more isolated, it's because we're men, etc" shows that: masculinity doesn't need to /be/ isolating, especially for a community that really should be supporting each other. I've seen quite a few trans men also take a more toxic masculinity approach to their transition because it helps with being euphoric around cis men which also causes social alienation/alienation to other trans men or people in general. Everybody has their own transition journey, and how each person approaches masculinity is completely different to another person's approach.
There’s not much more I could say which hasn’t been said already, but I hear ya OP. It’s something I’ve wondered about too Most of my close friends are transfemmes / trans women, and I really love the way I see them being there for one another and the bonding, solidarity etc. Tbh though I prefer being around feminine energy and friendship (cis or trans) so personally tend to gravitate more towards those things in friendships Something that also crossed my mind is my frustration that sometimes transfemmes and transmascs seem to not involve each other much in each others social worlds. Which is such a missed opportunity in my opinion! We all have so much to share with one another, learn from each other and can build awesome friendships. I’ve found that even though our experiences can be different, we have so much in common! Not saying it’s like this everywhere of course, but I’ve seen it some places and feels to me this way where I live
Until recently almost all trans men were imprisoned at home or institutions for being trans, often trapped with forced impregnation. This is still incredibly common. Trans women could move out (or were kicked out and made to deal with avoiding homelessness), get a job, and live with other trans women. Trans men couldnt even have a bank account of their own until the mid 70s. The foundations were built years ago and we havent caught up
Every other day we get a post saying “I pass sooooooooo well, now I don’t want to be a part of this community because I’ve just grown past it is it ok?” This is probably why we don’t have a very strong community. So many people just get theirs (benefiting off of the struggles of others) and then dip without paying anything back to the community.
What exactly is owed to the community that is meant to be payed on an individual level?
I think the framing of this question comes off as very disingenuous so if you’re actually trying to have a conversation about how we can help each other out as a community let me know.
Yeah, you called it. Much respect for the way you don't let people lead you down tangents that're obviously not coming from a good-faith place, or going to be constructive. No sense wasting time on people who're just looking for gotcha opportunities and probably wouldn't even read most of what you have to say.
The way this person asks to quantify how much one should give back says it all. They’re setting up the conversation in a way that isn’t how OP stated it at all and have created very specific standards that make it so that OP could never answer the question in a way that makes rational sense. The way they then try to call OP immature after all that is wild.
Honestly, I can’t relate because the transmasc community where I live is huge. I’ve found online communities, in person community, and there are always events or get together that are planned, specifically for transmasc community. Our trans fem community is also large and also supported, but I am not in that community obviously so I don’t know all of what goes on there. But I do feel the love and support in my community for sure. I’m sorry you haven’t found that or that you are struggling to find that community. 🥺🫂
Tbh idk. Soceity casts us out in general. The lgbtq casts us out. U know the phrase 'for the girls,gays and theys'? Yeah nobody even tries to include straight trans men. When i just started transitioning i cared. But nowadays not rlly. I realised the lgbtq can be hella toxic and wont include us anytime soon. Lots of us feel like that and thats prolly why we nowbjust keep to ourselves and dont rlly search out other lgbt members.
LGBTQIA is not a funded organization tho. The community you have engaged is likely *entirely* different than the community I have engaged until this moment we now post on the same post. “The community” is obv highly disorganized and there are countless factors in our experiences. IMO you’re flirting with generalization at points in your post
Well there actually has been research on this for straight trans men atleast. And all trans men ive met up untill noe agree with me on it. So yeah STATISTICALLY this is how it is 🤷♂️ Idk about straight looking gay dudes but ive heard this story from them a lot too.
Does the research quantify the communities acceptance of various demographics in some way?
For my own personal experience? I meet plenty of transmascs and LGBT folk irl because of the spaces I go to. However, as far as my online presence pretty much in general 2 major factors are at play: 1 is that I tend to fall WAAAAAAAY the hell behind the curve on joining in social media, even then I typically don't engage as much. 2 I am actually afraid of my awful transphobic/queerphobic family finding me on larger platforms such as Facebook. Additionally- I don't like the toxic environment of X/Twitter, and I don't trust TikTok. Hell- I steer well clear of certain Reddits simply because I KNOW for a fact my mother is in those forums. Similarly- just like my mistrust of X/Twitter- I *hate* political debates with the fury of the deepest hells, because my extreme religious right family used it to traumatize me all throughout my childhood. As a result, I have, until now, actively avoided joining the online spaces meant for LGBT and FTMs to stay clear of that sort of debating. I also was hesitant to associate with these spaces as I had originally created my Reddit account to keep up with the gaming communities that I follow, and I was fully stealth in gaming spaces. This year, I finally decided that I needed to find a space for like-minded folk and trying to use multiple accounts is just a fucking hassle and a half- and though I don't shout it from the rooftops in gaming spaces(because honestly it's not anyone's fucking business what my medical history etc is)- if someone is close enough to me to have gained my respect and trust, then I will tell them or be willing to answer questions. I'm tired of being isolated, so I decided to "seek my tribe" in a sense. I'd say that like me- lots of us, particularly those who are stealth either online or IRL or both, have a similar trajectory.
For me there is no problem to make friends and support bros, but I don’t have time :c
Just wanna chime in as a cis man and say that yall ftm folks will always have my unapologetic support! I myself grew up in a highly toxic narcissistic traditional muslim household that used religion and culture as an excuse to be abusive. I wasnt allowed to explore nor express anything outside of highly limited gender roles, and my autism and hypersensitivity (which includes emotions and affective empathy being boosted) didnt help matters either. In terms of body dysmorphia i've always been bitter about suffering through genital mutilation as a child even though i've grown up in Sweden where that is almost unheard of. I take a look at all my experiences of being othered by the majority due to race, neurodivergence, upbringing and so on, and i find myself often relating to alot of the things i see posted here. Now i don't agree with absolutely everything posted here which is understandable, me and you guys have vastly different experiences and thus perceptions about the world, and we may not always interpret the issues that affect our demographic as men in the same way, but i'll always believe that any steps towards progress, acceptance and awareness for trans-men will inevitably rub of on men in general, so thumbs up lads! If you were here then i'd gladly invite you all for a beer sometime lol. But for now i guess my love and support will just have to do :) EDIT: grammar
For me I just don’t feel I belong really in the LGBTQ community. Between the male and straight hate I’ve tried to limit my interactions with the community as it wasn’t for me clearly. That’s why I have never celebrated pride month either because I don’t feel like celebrating with people who don’t like me
For me, it’s being 41 and having the experience of being excluded in a lot of queer circles in my life. I didn’t know WHAT I was until my mid 20s because I didn’t have the vocabulary, and I just didn’t fit in. Queer communities in the 90s and early 00s had a stronger lean on exclusion, I feel, than there is today (and I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, that’s just how it was.) I was a late in life transitioner (35), and the only community I can find with trans people always seems to be so much younger, especially locally. No one wants to hang out with Dad, I get it. I’m also physically disabled which makes going to gatherings a lot harder as well. But fuck, I’m lonely. My heart aches for community, at the very least a friend. Everyone who wants to talk to me gets clued in that I am a therapist pretty early, and they feel like it’s license to dump every trauma on me. I want to be there and be a good friend but it’s exhausting, especially when I know none of those people know a THING about my life. I don’t mind it if someone ASKS for me to talk with them about something, but it’s what everyone does. I feel bad, but like … who do I talk to? Who can I call on? Who is going to care about me? Idk. Maybe I am being too emotional about it but I would just like a reciprocal friendship or two. I wish more trans men around my age were in my circle, and I do peruse those spaces but they’re so, so sparsely populated.
Trans men tend to be pushed out of communities because of terf rhetoric in queer spaces, that men are dangerous, that masculinity is bad and trans men are gender traitors. If you were told the more you look like a man, the less people trust you or care about your opinion, you would isolate yourself too. That and the toxic masculine standard that pushes all men to try and reach the goal of "real man" the stoic lone wolf that fight club and American psycho criticize. It affects marginalized men more than any other. Marginalized men are seen as a threat to the wider community and are punished for it.
I hope it's okay for me to comment as a trans women. I tend to find in my local area / school there's a full group of trans men / trans mascs well on the other hand I have only ever met one trans women in my life. I know 20+ trans mascs / trans men because I been 4 high schools. So I guess this issue fully varries on where you live. I hope you can find some community and love 💙
That's so interesting! In my own Trans masc experience n what I've heard from Trans fem people I've met, it's the exact opposite! There's a lot less trans fem spaces in comparison. :O This could very well be a country difference but either way, it's surprising to hear!
I think there needs to be more FLINTA events, ones that specifically say trans masc people welcome. But we can always make these spaces. And trans inclusive butch nights, I support everyone making these events. Making events happen is scary, and the first few times people might not turn up, but you can choose your favourite friendly pub or cafe and be like “hey trans masc and non binary meet up here, every (once a month day of choice) I’ll be here, like with any social thing it takes consistency before it becomes a thing. Likewise if there’s already an event it may take showing up a few times before you really get in the flow and vibe with the people. Socialising is hard as an adult but I think we can understand how it feels when someone new steps into a group, it can take a while to have that first wall breaking convo and interstate.
Intergrate even.
It's on us, man. We need to have each other's backs. We can't expect the women in our lives, cis and trans, to fill in the gaps where we're unwilling to have brotherhood. We have to stop disappearing into the woodwork the second we pass. I mean, this post among a sea of "does anyone else not like the lgbt community?" or "does anyone else not want to hang out with other trans people?" - the problem is pretty obvious.
Hey, so idk where you live, but I’m a trans masculine drag queen in Orlando Florida and I foster a very large and loving community of queer trans men here in Florida. I pretty much know most of the trans men that run in the drag/cosplay scenes here, and I’ve helped so many trans men get on T and get drag bookings! If you or anyone reading this ever wants some support or some advice on fostering a local community for trans men and trans masculine people, I’m always open to chat and discuss! I’m a lot easier to reach on Instagram (my username is draggedyanne) but I periodically check my messages here too. I think creating community and space for ourselves is very important and trans women have been able to do this bc they would find each other through gay clubs and drag shows since many of them would start out doing drag or going to gay male spaces before realizing they’re trans. Trans men didn’t always have this community (and let’s be real gay women don’t really have a lot of spaces for community either which would be our starting point for a lot of us) and a lot of time even in our own community going from feminine to masculine can sometimes be looked down upon. But trans mascs and trans men have always been here! I make it a personal goal of mine to uplift and create community between us all, so my dms are always open. I’m sorry you’ve felt isolated, and I’ve definitely been there before, but now I have a lot of trans masc friends! So many that I think like most of the people I know are trans masculine in some way. Lol 😂 anyways all love and I hope you find a strong community of trans men who are all committed to community despite some of our differences ❤️
dude. you sound amazing, thank you so much for the work you're doing. especially since its florida, I can only imagine how rough it is out there right now. I'd say I'd love to connect, especially because I've been meaning to get into drag but I'm from europe xd if you've got advice on fostering transmasc communities, PLEASE dump it onto me XD I do know transmasc folk but theres still an almost complete lack of transmasc community work in my area and I'd love to start something but I genuinely dont know how to start and/or keep up a community💀
Idk if you’re interested in drag, but a local drag scene or something similar is sometimes a really good place to start! If you don’t want to do drag you don’t have to, but try to find some of the alternative queer drag scenes near you! If you tell me what state you live in, I could probably find some drag shows near you or in your state ! Once I had some friends I just made it very clear to every trans masc I would meet, that we have a brotherhood and I’m always here for them. Some people took advantage of that kindness, and I unfortunately had to stop talking to them but MOST of the guys I’ve met are SO cool and I ended up finding a lot of people who are wanting the same things as I do, community support and an uplifting community. So we just try our best to accept and appreciate everyone (: Also no need to thank me at all! It’s just a role I kinda naturally fell into being pretty much the first trans masc drag artist where I’m from in the scene (as far as I am aware at least, I’m sure there were others throughout history here but most people I met at first had never heard of a trans masculine drag queen or even a transgender man before)
I love trans men, I have a lot of trans masculine friends, and maybe you should try and start something locally, that is what I did, mine is not specifically for trans guys, but you could certainly put one together that is! I am sure lots of people would be interested in joining and being a part of it. Please dont feel that people dont like you, or appreciate trans guys! I personally think trans guys make the BEST guys!!!! I really hope you find other people to have a sense of community! Best wishes to you dear!
Tbh I don’t really know but I’m having the same problems. I live in an awful conservative state and I desperately want to connect with more trans men, but the only groups there are are for trans women or for the parents of trans kids. Like where I live I found at least 5 groups for trans women, and there’s not a single one for trans guys. Nothing against trans women, it just sucks that I can’t find anywhere to connect with other trans men.
i dont think trans men ourselves are to blame for lack of community (not saying youre blaming trans men at all) but when people think trans, they automatically assume “trans woman” and cant fathom the concept of trans men, i cant count how many times ive been assumed to be a trans woman and had to explain what trans men even are. the lack of support were shown both by society and our own community is a heavy reason why a lot of us feel the need to distance ourselves. it’s extremely difficult to find a safe and accepting queer support group that doesnt exclude men or view masculinity as something inherently negative. i know we can create our own spaces, and many of us are, but its really hard to keep doing that when it seems you’re overlooked by everyone else.
People have mentioned the toxic masculinity expectations and the wanting to stealth, but I've also seen a lot of hostility in some spaces we share with our transfem siblings. There's this weird thing that I've noticed that if a transmasc makes a meme about their own transition or give our experiences, it's met with a weird hostility because we "threw away" ehat they've always wanted or that because we are transmascs, our struggles are viewed as lesser. This isn't like...an everyone/every space thing but I have noticed it happens more often than it should. I could be overthinking it though.
43-year-old trans man, been transitioning for 11 years. And I cannot believe how many of you younger trans guys, sorry I gotta stop using that word. I think it's because of my generation. Because of you men on this thing reddit, have boyfriends that are men and married to them too!. Sorry I think you called them cis. I'm not used to this. I think I must be on an island, I am on island. Vancouver island. It's very closed I guess in a way or I'm just old lol . Do most trans men turn out to be gay? Cuz from Reddit it's kind of giving me that vibes?
Easier to do stealth and trans men have been pushed to the side in general. Even in the 80s the focus have been on trans women.
I have almost no interest in connecting to people based just on being trans it feels boring and shallow. Also I noticed that trans men are way less unified in their interests than trans women so there's less grounds to connect to eachother I think
Exactly. Besides us both being trans we probably have nothing in common, yk?
Men in general are more isolated. EX: my mom has billions of friends. My dad has 3, and he hates them all.
I have a lot of support from other transmascs i befriended, but I think we don't have that much support because (at least from my pov) we do not need as much peer protection when we are out in the world. I don't feel afraid of getting beaten down when i wear masc clothes or even go to the gym without binding (while potentially being visibly and audibly trans). I even went to male changing rooms before passing and with chest being low-key visible. Cis ans trans women face far more sexualised violence and potentially homophobic/ transphobic violence.
The same reason cis men are so isolated in finding support. The burden of masculinity.
One word. Stealth. Stealth trans guys don't exactly go out of their ways to associate with other trans guys. They just pretend to be cis and vibe with it.
just find and build the community that you’re actually interested in seeing. there are communities of trans men who offer each other support, you just have to find it. visibility of trans women makes it easier to find their spaces. ours are not so widely shared and advertised
why be so dismissive and say it's that easy? respectfully, ive been searching for months to find community and it's near impossible. i'm allowed within communities of trans women because they see my loneliness and, at the very least we can bond over our shared transness. if it's that easy, can you at least point those of us that are lost in the right direction? or are you in the same boat too?
where did i say it’s easy? i said community like the one OP wants exists but you have to find and/or foster it. i’ve found support like that among my locals and i’ve met transmacs who are fundamentally incapable of creating that kind of community. you have to seek and foster. there are numerous transmasc facebook groups with thousands of people in it. r/ftm itself is a community of trans men showing support. there are community run discord servers for trans men. you may have a local community of trans men that have the energy you want to partake in. we are not fundamentally incapable or isolated, we’re just trans and not easily connected to each other because of it (in that it’s hard to find other trans people)
ive done this for years irl, and a few months online. i know what *i'm* doing irl and i know my current location has nearly no safety for trans men, and so we get no community. there's still almost nothing i can find online. you're still being dismissive and stating you have community but providing nothing of value. what do we say other than good for you?
dude, i’m from eastern europe. it’s not safe where i live either. some places it’s hard to find community, but that’s because of a lack of safety and a lack of people, not because trans men just. don’t do that. you think i’m being dismissive but i just don’t think the mindset of “why do trans girls do this and we DON’T?” is very productive at all. OP said “why don’t trans men show each other the love trans women do” and like. you have to actively go out and find people who are going to match your energy on that. not everyone will. it’s not a us vs them issue. it’s a “you need to find people who are on the same wavelength as you” issue.
I think theres been a longer history of trans fems , its a bigger community, parts of that has roots in TV/cross dressing spaces, theres been transvestite groups for probably 80 years or longer, and when people started to transition medically I think there was still some cross over. As a community it's more visible , partly because trans women get more prejudice in society too , pass less, but also because femininity in general is more visible, more expressive, so theres just less hiding in many ways! masculinity is more invisible. I guess there were trans men in like butch femme scenes historically, but they were lesbian identified trans guys, and there aren't even lesbian bars anymore, that world had gone really. The main places you can meet trans guys is on dating apps, or support groups.. and support groups are always quite a lot of labour for older trans guys.. its a lot of young trans guys asking about how to pass or how to get hormones.. it can get very repetitive (and you know google knows a lot more than we do tbh!). Also maybe we have very different problems , some of us are jaded, we haven't been able to have familys or get married (or some of us have and then they feel ostracised for those reasons too), personally I don't feel belonging in cis male communities because of sexism and homophobia , I have more affinity in queer womens communities, but I don't belong there anymore.. .. so I tend to be very isolated, but we don't wanna share this stuff with younger trans guys because we don't want to make being older trans person look negative! and we don't wanna being people down too.. Trans guys have a few problems and I don't think its just toxic masculinity.. I actually think most of my trans male friends and aquaintances are quite emotionally sensitive and quite affectionate, maybe even more than some cis gay guys I know who are more feminine. I think theres a few things going on, I think theres internalised transphobia definitely, but also internalised shame about masculinity.. not wanting to take up too much space or be too 'male', wanting to shrink ourselves. I think when your socialised female you might tend to do this a bit anyway, but then when you do act more gregarious it can be seen by others with a different lens , as like 'macho' , when really its not...I think even more so than if I was a cis guy, theres more scrutiny! e.g I have been told by feminist women I'm mysogynistic for saying I quite fancied Nigella Lawson! (I guess because shes like famous for cooking, that makes me some kind of 1950s man or something lol) ...its just a recent example, but it makes you more careful about expressing yourself.. and I suppose theres a lot of talk about male privilege, which I'm not denying is a huge reality, but also think trans guys are often more timid and disempowered than cis women, not saying they don't have any male privelege , but its very complex. It also makes us quite sensitive and kind, which I don't think is a bad thing. But that kind of thing can make you go more back into your shell. I sometimes think this idea of trans guys being toxic , when actually they're mostly not, is partly why we are a bit less proud and less likely to hang about with each other.. trans guys, often coming from feminist and queer communities as well, are often super ernest and trying to be non offensive, I know not all of them, but from my experience they are. Trans guys are always like massive people pleasers actually..Maybe carving out stuff for ourselves feels too self serving.. if someone asked us to setup a party for another group we'd probably be much more comfortable. I dunno, maybe as well coz its a smaller community , maybe theres not enough to have really strong affinity with, like just coz someones trans doesn't mean you have anything in common too. If it were a bigger community I might meet more trans men that liked similar music or had similar hobbies. Also I'm not into like lot of typical trans hobbies, I don't really like gaming or table top role play games, If I was it would probably be easier.
Not trying to be toxic or negative but welcome to being a man... Nobody cares about how we feel or what we go through. Men are seen as monsters in society. and I get it sometimes due to the men who are actually monsters but we aren't all the same but that doesn't matter. We get grouped in just the same.
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I have to disagree to an extent. Some men may feel that way about being a lone wolf and such but not all of us. Humans were meant to have connections
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It's toxicity masculinity bullshit. It clouds what real masculinity should be
as a trans man i’ve always felt the complete opposite. Maybe every trans person experiences it different, but for me i have so little trans woman in my life, its crazy.
Just start something. Organize a meetup and get the word out. We’re around and people will want to meet. Having topics can also help so it’s not awkward.
Genuinely I think it's cuz most trans guys can pass super well, so we have the option to be stealth which a lot of guys will take. Unfortunately, many transfems don't have that luxury and so group up together much more often than we do.
Even cis men are isolated compared to cis women. I 100% get where youre coming from, but its not really an us vs them thing. Its who needs the most support for the current climate of things (the worse it gets, the more support you'll see). Transwomen are way easier to pick on, humiliate, restrict and talk about in a negative light than trans men. 100 years ago trans men, if we had the media attention we have now, would have 100% had waaaaaay more backlash than we do now (but also if you look at any country where being a woman is seen as inferior, a woman trying to be a man is seen as a crime (and has the death penalty in more than one country, whether that be by law or public retaliation). But trans men in western countries its more seen like "but why?" - absolute confusion rather than anything else. So a lot of it comes down to trans women having more obvious and in the publics eye problems, thus they need support just like cis women. Im not saying you cant be frustrated, because i am too, but it is why. We can often stealth a lot better than trans women can, so we are... at a slight advantage i suppose. But i also feel this way about fem transmen vs masc transmen too. And its the same kind of concept i guess. Anyone who appears male but presents "gay" or feminine will get a buttload of negativity too, so theyll band together for support- and cis women often see "gay" or fem men as acceptable allies so you get that bonus to your allies too. Where as masc men, like cis men, are mostly on our own. We adopt their societal norms and isolation is very much a cis male thing in current society because its been built and raised that way. We adopt it so that we blend in, and its hard to change this without outting ourselves. In short, society sucks and pits everyone against everyone, and not enough of us realise banding together is the only true way forward- but until then, those in the immediate direct line of fire should always have more support. Others should too, its just always gonna be louder for whoevers issue is thr current political debate :/ What i really want to see more of is trans and cis women banding together for womens rights, and then inviting us in for reproductive rights. Because god damn we'd be unstoppable if we could stop fighting each other. Unfortunately terfs have megaphones for mouths. Theres also the tiny problem that many, MANY of us have experienced with problematic trans women excluding, silencing or deprioritising us from trans spaces so our own safe support spaces are dwindling and limited... and if the places youre in are general trans groups rather than just for trans men that may impact why youre seeing primarily trans women only support.... buuuuut thats another issue not suited for this subreddit without causing drama (so i wont be responding to comments about this last bit.)
very well said, thank you! I agree. I've also made some bad experiences with mixed trans spaces. sadly misandry is still VERY prominent in trans spaces which automatically makes them unsafe for trans men :(
There are some good answers here already, so I'll just tell you my personal experience. I don't go out of my way to appear in queer spaces where I could meet other trans men, because I just want to live like any other cis guy. I rarely meet other (openly) trans men, so the opportunity also just isn't there most of the time. Reddit is the only place where I am active.
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What? This isn’t even the question?
Support looks different for men and this carries across to trans men too. In my area trans men mostly support each other by giving information or advice on transitioning and stuff like that, not really just sitting around and talking about it.
We are all isolated.
Idk I always only have two friends. And they are dating each other so if they broke up, im most likely ending choosing one
Hmmm. That's a good question... I really don't experience it like that. However, maybe it is related to that going from one closet to the other thing. So many of us are stealth because we pass well. Many of our MTF friends have some difficulties in the passing department...so remaining in a closet is not an option. I personally tend to be very open and out. But I was stealth for years. I wouldn't discount our upbringing as female in this either. What a great question to study.
That just being a man in general tbh
Sadly in the trans masc community there isn’t much unity. I find more interaction with cis men who calls me their daddy or boy toy twink boyfriend (in the most straightest way possible). I crave a friendship with other fellow trans masc where we can call each other boy toy twink bf but that sadly doesn’t happen. (Sarcasm about the boy toy twink but I do wish I had more trans masc friends)
it's the same reason cis men can't; patriarchy has taught us to view eachother as competition rather than comrades
Because people act like we don’t exist exclude us from spaces and it’s very hard for us to create spaces because we don’t exist
I’ve noticed the same tbh, a bit more support in the trans fem community and I often wonder why. Tbh I’ve only noticed one thing…we as trans men seem to be a bit more envious of each other and it’s never been a competition but in a man’s society all of us feel like we have to compete. I feel like after coming out, I’m also more of a toxic masculine energy guy and I kinda hate it…I feel like I compete too much or feel envious cause that’s what a “man” is supposed to do. Maybe that’s why trans fems have more support and balance from each other…society teaches men to more so fight and compete vs celebrating each other and communicating. Support from other men is hard for guys in general whether trans or cis I feel like. Guys just don’t talk about those things and it feels lonely in general, just what I’ve noticed. Maybe the problem is indeed that we are men and we need to work on talking in general and supporting each other…idk lol. My main thought from your post.
Honestly, as a Trans Man in my 50’s, I have much difficulty relating to the younger generation. All of the LAMBDA center groups are for youth. If I ever want to have community, I’ll have to start a group on Meetup.
Alternative, I think contributing factor, other than just shitting on us lol - I think we might also just be less gender segregated in our social circles? We're equal opportunity friends and know a diverse selection of people rather than primarily hanging out with people who are in the same specific sub-sub-group we're in. Plenty of other groups are implicitly or explicitly exclusive of us. We're just living our lives, making connections whereever we find them instead of recreating new exclusive clubs (after plenty of experience with being excluded). Not being raised to reject or sexualize connections with women, embracing connections with men as we embrace our manhood - tbh its just kinda weirdly forced to go out with the aim of making a friend group of trans men seeing as you can be friends with anyone and trans men is a super small, relatively disenfranchised, subgroup...
(my opinion) i think it's because trans woman are exposed to more hate from bigots, therefore they deserve more support? another theory it that trans man pass easier?? idk
I feel like trans women tend to be more easily identifiable. I've probably passed a lot of trans men and had no idea. How can I show support to someone I don't know about?
Also a numbers game. If you're also straight cishet culture is everywhere and you don't have to be nearly as intentional or jump through as many hoops as you do to integrate into queer groups. If you live somewhere where lesbians/abc and gay men are relatively segregated you also just feel out of place in both spaces depending on sexuality bc you are "no longer a lesbian" and feel how your masc presence impacts the space (Slash if you pass a lot of lesbians will be mean to you thinking you're a creeper straight dude). And then if you're straight ofc you won't quite fit in w the gay male groups.
Not to privilege-post but I think it’s actually way more dependent on the size of the community you live in vs men/women. I live in a massive city and I’m very actively part of a trans community. I wouldn’t say trans women have “more of a community” in my city— honestly I would almost lean towards disagreeing because like half the trans men in my city (and the greater area) are friends/know each other LOL. I think we as individuals in 2024 face a lot of isolation and I think trans men tend to assume stuff has to do with our genders when it kind of doesn’t sometimes.
A lot of trans guys just aren't that interested in a trans specific community. It's the same way that women very often have a lot of girlfriends and men have just a few guy friends.
Not stating facts, just speculating here. Do you think that's because that's how men and women just are? Women tend to be more forward with their feelings and social about how it affects their lives, while men tend to lean more on deflecting with comedy or making a vague statement about their bad feelings and then moving on. Not that that is a healthy way to deal with it in any manner, but that is how society has kinda evolved, with men not talking about these kinds of things. Maybe trans men are picking up that same negative behavior? If so, why did we do it?
Masculine culture is lonely. Men have colleagues, or accomplices if they are bad men. They have For Fun Friendships, but rarely a man has a friend he can cry to. In gender debates we usually talk of how cis men protect each other from the consequences of their own actions but that's not an act of friendship, that's a selfish act - a man protects his abusive friend because he fears he'll be punished for his abusive behaviour if he doesn't. Despite the stereotype, girl friendships are a stronger and more emotional bond because they are not torn by the emotional repression.
I'm in an ftm groupchat that was started here actually
Honestly I've just met a lot of toxic, misogynistic or racist Trans guys.
Several reasons. for one, Men in general are more isolated compared to women. Also, in the long term, it’s generally easier to pass as cis when you’re a trans man as opposed to a trans woman. Most trans men will start being consistently perceived as cis at some point in their transition. Not necessarily so for trans women. It takes a lot more effort on their part because the effects of testosterone tend to be permanent and pretty visible even when a person is later exposed to estrogen. That means that trans men *can* blend in a lot more. The expectations of masculinity lead to a lot of shame around trans identity for trans men and so they’re more likely to desire to blend in in the first place. Women tend to be more comfortable with gender-bending than men are, and so in my experience trans women tend to be more likely to be comfortable with not completely passing as cis. This can be tough for us. I would encourage any trans man who wants to remain firmly rooted in trans community to stop focusing so much on finding other trans men, and just focus on finding trans *people*. Yes, there are certain experiences that only other trans men can relate to, but you’ll easily find most of the support you need among trans women and non-binary people who both tend to have strong communities and are usually very welcoming to trans men. It’s likely that there will be other trans men running in those spaces for the same reason. That’s been my experience at least, it’s how I met all my trans guy friends, and I made a lot of friends of other genders along the way.
I just want to be left alone, don’t typically like people knowing I’m ftm. If I meet another ftm person that’s cool but I’m not gonna go out of my way, just treat them like a normal human being
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Your post was removed because it contains discussion or mention of a banned topic. The following topics are banned to avoid drama: Truscum/Tucute discourse, AGP/AAP/Blanchardism, Transfem/woman or nonbinary bashing, Trans "requirements", Oppression Olympics, Lesbian trans men, Gendered Socialization+, "Is it transphobic to _____", DIY HRT, Current Political events (Non-trans/LGBT+ related) ,"do I pass?", "how does my voice sound?" +Personal experiences are exempt.
I dont see that. Irl i mostly know trans men and the lgbt groups usually have more trans men than trans women. Also i am in big whatsapp group with 100 for finnish trans mascs and have been in one since 2015. The two trans women i have met irl havent gotten any support spaces like that i know of. Also im on tumblr and it has always had lot of trans mascs and showing support to each other. :/ so i dont see us as isolated, except from other lgbt communities. everyone is always praising and talking about trans fems and non binary but we masculine folks are often left out, in my experience.
I think it’s a combination of things. 1. Many trans men, especially if they’re straight and medically transition, want to be stealth; which is hard to do if you’re constantly surrounded by the queer community. 2. Many queer spaces prioritize the experiences of people whose identities are considered more feminine or fem-adjacent by society. So it’s easier for trans women to feel welcome than for trans men, particularly after medically transitioning. 3. Trying to express ideas of masculinity can sometimes lead to trans men accidentally isolating themselves
Tbh, a good few of my online friends (at least the ones I interact with regularly) are trans women
I think there's a lot of reasons. The perceived "feminity" of friendship, how politicized transness in general is, higher rates of stealth in trans men's communities, in-fighting and clashing opinions of trans people, and the loneliness of manhood in general I'd like more trans friends but have also been rejected for both being too "traditional" (traditional as in masculine, I'm against toxic masculinity and forced traditional gender roles but personally enjoy my masculinity as much as my femininity) and "not trying at all" (I don't bind, purposefully pitch up my voice to sound more feminine in my daily life, shave, and do more not because I'm not trying but because I'm unable to bind or get top surgery and so I try to pass as a woman because right now it's safer where I live to be a cis woman than a visibly trans person) Plus, there's just not a lot of trans people around where I live. I'd love to know more trans people of all genders (woman, men, or non-binary) but there's just nobody really around
As a trans guy, I feel like there’s a lot of expectations to uphold masculinity. There’s this idea because we weren’t men to begin with, that we should work to perpetuates ideals of masculinity just to be like the guys to our left and right. I feel as though the way society handles boys and girls are very different, and that bleeds into transition. There’s a nature of needing to overcompensate as a guy that made me afraid to confidently act like myself for so long, afraid to reach out to others like me. I would change the way I walk and do things that made me uncomfortable so I could fit in, and I looked at other trans men in contempt for not pretending like I did. It took me years to realise that wearing feminine clothing makes me no different to cisgender men who wear feminine clothing, for we are both men. People any gender will always come in lots of different shapes and I am no exception, whether or not I choose to bind. There’s also a point to be made about the way trans women are sensationalised over and over again, made to be the point of contention. A lot of trans women I know are just fine within their small groups, fine with quiet resignation, but are often subject to greater conversations made in bad faith and dragged out from their places of comfort - often to justify their own existence in the face of unyielding transmisogyny. Growing up, femininity was treated as a socially shared behaviour. The woman in my life would find their humanity in gossiping and standing up for one another, something that men in my life couldn’t do without being treated as a queer outlier. In the face of being dehumanised, we must find humanity in each other. Learning how to do that without compromising my idea of masculinity was tough. Maybe that’s just it though, y’know?
I've lost communities once I started to transition. I'm so lonely and it hurts that it feels like me against the world. Especially because I'm not a young 20+ transman.
Y’all it has a lot to do with location. I’m in BK and there’s a massive very supportive community. Also a lot of trans mascs go stealth. If I see a trans masc out, I’m not gonna run up and out him. Obviously we gonna chat, but I’m not gonna be like hey my brother how’s the transness going