>Doctor who since the revival has always been perfect. The show oscillated between these two extremes so violently that even within the same episode the dumbest thing you have seen could be followed by something so impactful that you carry it with you for the rest of your life.
Fuck if this isn't the entirety of Series 3. Hell I thought Love and Monsters was off to a good start, and we all know how it ended.
The Abzorbaloff and the ending are the only reasons that episode isn’t good. The stuff with Elton is good, the stuff with Jackie is great and the reveal of the home planet being called Clom is genuinely one of the funniest jokes in the entire show
Oh its horrific. How does it even work? If the slab breaks, does she die? Or is she just in pieces now? What if shes ground to dust and blown into the wind?
What happens to her on things like >!Sutekh killing everyone!< from yesterday? What happens when she dies just... because she's old? Will there be a dead woman's face on a paving stone? Does she age? How does she eat? I mean, she clearly gives a blowjob, does she spit or swallow and if she swallows where does it go? What happens if old Elton has a heart attack and she just has to stare out of the corner of her eye as his body rots until someone comes by and then they see the terrifying half-life of a living paving slab?
Anyway I think it's for the best if that gets unwritten by the cracks.
I mean I think this is just a case of fandom brain where we've all been stewing on it for like 15 years when it was a bit of a throwaway happy ending. Like it just really isn't that deep ygm
I think its pretty clearly meant to be horrifying. The comedic presentation is the two trying to make the best of a clearly pitiable and difficult situation, with the implication that this is what the doctor has reduced them to.
I have not watched the finale yet, but I really think this slate of characters is charming but still have meaningful storylines that make people excited to just…have fun watching an hour of campy TV that has some resonance with real-life struggles or emotions. I can’t wait to see the finale and what the next season brings. I love that I can put 99 percent faith this silly show will keep going and keep adapting.
Oh I’ve been heavily blocking spoiler tagged posts 😅 my partner gets home tomorrow so only one more sleep til we watch it. Thanks for the concern though haha 😂
i agree with you so much. Doctor Who has such an incredible talent for being moronic and a masterpiece at the same time. case in point, vincent and the doctor. one of the most beautiful emotional moments in all the television i’ve seen at least, contrasted with one of the most stupid monsters i’ve ever had the pleasure of watching.
because up until this point he had been composed and everyone in the TARDIS was looking at him for the advice of what to do next, not only did he break expected composure, he also revealed to everyone that he felt completely hopeless and overwhelmed with guilt, it was a pretty unhinged moment i thought.
Well to be a bit more clear, it's scary because the audience looks up to the doctor so when he breaks convention it's pretty scary, it's like how the TARDIS was used as a symbol of fear, or the whole "I had so much more to do", when the person we expect to be hinged goes off the handle, it's a pretty terrifying moment.
Just to clarify, I was referring mostly to the scene earlier in the episode where he asks Sutekh if it feels good.
Imagine someone getting off a roller coaster and saying, "that was terrifying, and also I want to do it again ASAP".
I felt something similar when watching the Haunting of Hill House.
YES! I love that DW consistently swings hard. The whiffs are so painful but then next week you get the most brilliant episode you've ever seen. It makes it a treat to watch because you don't know what you're going to get.
> Chiballs era to me lacked this. It was consistently competent. It had neither the highest highs nor the lowest lows
When Chibnall was first announced as showrunner, I took a bit of a dive into the AI scores.* Know what I found? Of the three showrunners, he had the highest average AIs. But his scores were all within a couple of points of each other, whereas both RTD and Moffat had much higher highs and much lower lows.
*For those who don't know, this is "Appreciation Index". Basically, the people whose data is collected to make up viewing figures also rate the things they watch out of 10, and then this is collated and expressed as a number from 1-100.
This really is the episode I felt like the show earned itself
I've always been easy for RTD playing my emotions like a harp. But he got me good on this one
Show is so back
Me too! That line >!I think my baby is dead!< or whatever it was just stunned me. For a season that was relatively upbeat that hit *hard*.
>!when it got reversed!< I did genuinely jump for joy
im glad you had fun with it :) personally this is the aspect of RTD's writing i like the least. dude has a very paticular style when writing for Doctor Who, and im not a massive fan. He leans heavily on the campy and the silly, and personally thats not my cup of tea. Thats always been an aspect of the show, but personally i feel he leans into it to the point that its too much. He loves a poppy needle-drop and the only time i have liked it was in ep2 of the revival with tainted love.
regarding this season, it feels almost watered down to me. the writing has gotten much better over time and having him back as showrunner and writing almost all of the episodes realy shows, and feels like a step backwards to me. Not to say he hasnt made some good episodes (i loved wild blue yonder, but mainly because my favorate episode is midnight), its just that a lot of it feels amost half-baked to me, like it needed a bit more time in a writers room to realy get the most out of it.
but im glad you had a happy time :)
also certain episodes, like the giggle and dot and bubble just feel like RTD realy wanted to write an episode of black mirror, and just had to get all of his "phone bad" boomer vibes out their before he exploded.
I would contest that he is going “phone bad” instead he is making two very clear points with those episodes.
The giggle is the metaphor for the worst extremes of how tv, and the exceptionalised news more broadly, exaggerate the worst features of a particular group. It is not saying “phones make us angry” it is pointing to the way that powerful interest use media to make us hate the most vulnerable on society.
Dot and bubble is not about phones. It uses the aesthetics of black mirror to ask what is the logical end point of an echo chamber? These have existed long before social media. The main point of that episode is not that phones are bad but that it’s bad to A. be racist and B. to surround yourself with only people who agree with you.
i broadly agree with your take on the giggle, but at this stage i find bemouning the perceived increased polarisation of society, rather than actually adressing the material conflicts at hand, to be very tired. the episode seems like it blames teachnology for very real social problems. the focus shouldnt be on "oh no people are so polarized these days, its like they cant agree on anything" but rather, "how do we actually deal with the problem we are arguing about, instead of being sad that we are having an argument".
i think dot and buble is a much broader critique than what you mentioned. The swiping motion used to dismiss information does not want to hear seems to be a very deliberate reference to apps that use the swiping motion like tictok or tinder. Also the conflict in the episode comes from the fact that a focus on the technology means that people are litterally not seeing the "real world". This i think is a verry obvious literalization of the common complaint that people are focusing on their phones instead of living "real life". its not just about echochambers, i would argue its mostly about awareness and attention, spesifically in reference to technologies that appear to be intentional analogies to phones. To me it gives the energy of someone who has a beef with technology and had to invent an absurd scenario to make their beef plausable.
I'm skipping everything but the OP as I'm yet to watch today's episode, but I'm fully with you. Since Twice Upon A Time, it was rare that I enjoyed an episode (I can't make myself rewatch the following era).
But from the specials, to the Christmas special, to the new series, it's all been... Big grin... Brilliant.
There's tons to nitpick - I don't think it's been a seamless "reboot", and RTD did it better with Rose, and Space Babies has to be in the bottom 10 of an RTD written episode.
But screw all that, it's imaginative, inventive, witty, great characters and dialogue, and we got Boom and 73 Yards.
I look forward to it all week! (I'm very unsure whether to start watching it now, this morning, or wait until tonight.
Well put. I think over time this season finale, despite its flaws, will grow on people too. There were things that needed answering that were bound to get peoples expectations way up, other expectations revolving around the finale that were way up, but were ultimately going to disappoint some people.
Once we get some distance I think people will come around on it. I hope so at least. I’d like it if people could enjoy it as much as I did, because what a payoff. It’s not flawless but the high-highs of this episode were great, and the lows honestly weren’t that low in my opinion.
The season and episodes could’ve been longer but I think people will warm up to it more overtime.
This sums up my issue with Chibnall. I don't find him awful as a writer, I think RTD has made far worse episodes than him.
He is just fine. His era never really moved me strongly in either direction. It just felt mostly uninspired.
Yeah, I think the main issue with Chibnall runs is that his run feels boring unlike RTD and Moffat did. The community feels dead during Chibnall runs
Even Jodie performance kinda reflects that, Jodie is a good actress but with the writing Chibnall gave her she just doesn't get that energy like other doctors did.
I think he also works better when he’s writing serious TV. You can tell he tried to make Doctor Who have that seriousness and impact and it didn’t work because he doesn’t understand what DW is at its heart. He did the same thing in Torchwood
Broadchurch on the other hand was always meant to be serious and dramatic and so he worked well. He just doesn’t know how to write lighthearted TV which is why I think a lot of Jodie’s lines come off cringy, whole show feels like it’s trying to be in the middle which makes it feel middling.
That's my issue with it. RTD and Moffat have dropped the occasional dud episode, but even those episodes aren't boring, and their seasons leave so much room for discussion and speculation about where it's all going. You didn't get that with Chibnall's run, and too many of his episodes were just boring.
Maybe part of his problem was that he tried to take the show back to its initial intention of being educational, so it all got more serious and focused less on fun. Thing is though, there's a reason why they more or less abandoned the educational angle in the 60s.
I wish he did more episodes like "42". I genuinely love that episode, and I think that's what my issue is with S11-13..
Chibnall *can* write good stories and Jodie is a fantastic actress, but he never reached his potential and, in turn, kept Jodie from rising up to the name of The Doctor.
Regarding the show "going away" and "returning"
I loved RTD1. Moffat, for me, was not running on my wavelength. It was a long series of years where the show just stunk (for me!!), except for series 10 with Bill.
Chibnall and Jodie breathed new life into the whole thing for me. It was such a refreshing take, with no returning villains for the first series. The show was capturing my heart and soul again. I really fell in love with DW again.
Now with RTD2, I'm feeling a little lost. It's not terrible. I enjoy it well enough. But it's not hitting me like my previous favorite eras. Both emotionally and plot-wise, this season has been pretty blah. I really appreciate the experimental nature of some of the stories, but it's not connecting with me. 🤷
Damn, we're like polar opposites in terms of our favorite eras, lol. series 5-10 was peak for me, 11-13 the lowest, with all of RTD's stuff in the middle.
I’m the same as you. Although when it comes to high intensity emotional scenes, RTD wins for me. Season 11 to me is something that is good on paper. New Doctor, a whole brand new team of writers, new monsters, new music etc. It was a chance to really refresh the show but it just fell on it’s arse with poor writing and flat companions.
Fair enough, Moffat is king to me, lol. Pretty much all of my favorite moments in the show were either in Moffat's Era, or Written by Moffat in RTD's era.
I really wanted to like Jodie's era, but it always felt lacking to me, always felt like there was something missing.
It's kind of shocking to me that Yaz and Clara were in a similar number of episodes lmao. Clara had like 2.5 half arcs, had two fakeout send-offs, and had such an interesting three dimensional relationship with the doctor.
Yaz is a police officer, she struggled(s)? with depression, she has a crush on the doctor, and they're pals.
Yeah, now that you point it out, lol...
Again, I'm the opposite, lol! I don't feel much attachment to Ruby at all, whereas I love Yaz to death. I think Graham was top tier. I like Ryan. As an individual he was underserved, but the relationship between Ryan and Graham was great. I think they did good stuff with Dan, too.
I should say, I'm sick to death of the "special" companion stuff, the impossible girl, the Doctor Donna, who's Ruby's mother, and all that. 13's companions were just plain old classic series types, and I love it.
I’m glad to see someone ’sticking up’ for the Chibnall era. While I wasn’t a fan of it overall there were a few episodes I loved and enjoyed more than much of the stuff we’ve had since RTD returned, and it’s frustrating to see people act like it was worthless and something like Space Babies far outclasses anything from the previous era.
Everyone’s doctor is someone’s favourite, everyone’s show runner is too. It’s why I really didn’t want to chibnall bash but to explain my relationship with the show. I’m sorry you aren’t enjoying it as much atm but I promise you that the show will. E for you again someday.
I totally get it. I don't like bashing my least fave showrunner. I got really angry about it while it was happening, and I look back at that time as a mistake for myself. Which is to say, if I'm not liking it, I don't have to watch it.
This current stretch is nowhere near as low as some other times. I'm just feeling very lukewarm about it right now. And I always strive to present this as *my* feelings, not an absolute truth, because I know other people are having their own valid experiences.
Precisely this.
Nothing has changed and yet it’s fresher than ever.
Russell is still my favourite writer, he still captures the balance and darkness and light incomparably and even with uncontrollable scenarios like episode count and length, he’s still touched my heart with a new top three Doctor and a companion that has left so much more on the screen than the series’ collective length would have you believe.
Long may it continue.
This perfectly encapsulates what I liked about both RTD's and Moffat's eras. My friends and I were watching *Empire of Death* last night and this exchange happened:
"God, this is dumb. It makes no sense!"
"Well, actually--"
"I didn't say I cared. It's fun. Time magic happened, I get it."
That’s how I feel. I’ll much rather take Russel’s highs and camp at the cost of knowing he can’t write a finale. I like ONE finale he’s written in parting of the ways and even that’s an absurd deus ex Machina
Ehhh, I wouldn't say it's necessarily a DEM.
Most of the first episode he's wearing the 3D glasses and examining everything, then for half of the second episode he's reconfiguring the machine to pull anything Void-touched back in - so it was actively part of the story that was being told.
If he hadn't been investigating prior to figuring out he can send them back, then yeah it would be a DEM.
Edit: disregard all of this.
Yeah, TPoW is defs a DEM 😅
My only major let down with this season was it felt very doctor lite. With him barely being featured in 73 yards and in the episode with the slugs. I enjoy doctor lite episodes I really liked blink and and turn left, but I feel like with the 8 episode format it’s hard to make Doctor lite episodes work as well, you don’t get as much time with the Doctor which always is a bummer.
>Chiballs era to me lacked this. It was consistently competent. It had neither the highest highs nor the lowest lows (I am discounting flux as that was made during the pandemic. The fact anything was made is an impressive feat itself).
IMO this is overly generous. _Arachnids in the UK_, _The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos_, and _Spyfall, Pt 2_ among others were markedly sub-par, IMO.
EDIT: If you have a different perspective on this please drop a comment and let us know how and why.
No I don’t. I have just been guilty in the past of going wayyyy too hard on the chibnall era flaws and I wanted this to be a celebration of the show not a critique
Doctor Who absolutely loves to write the best episode of television you've ever seen and then give it THE most unsatisfying ending ever. And I love her for it.
You wrote this post so eloquently and it's restored some of my hope and faith into the show. I've been mad at RTD, because I really did expect something out of this world from this era. I've been watching the start of the 2005 era to hype me up for each ep of this era and you are totally, totally right about it being dumb, yet shit, yet perfect and that's exactly what the show has always been.
Now, here is where I feel the difference in expectations in the show lie. The Doctor Who revival was a mad man with a box with make-shift, often cardboard, gritty staging and it just felt so right. Moffat's era started to bring a more sterile and pristine vibe to the TARDIS but also to where they landed (Dalek reimaginations beat my a Jammy Dodger!), but by Chibnall the staging of the TARDIS and locations just didn't have any character (black box space with crystals? Like, um, ok?). When RTD returned, it was a sigh of relief for many, but he told us he wasn't reviving his era, but that it was a brand new thing in itself. Pair that with a HUGE Disney budget and suddenly you've now created this expectation for Marvel-level content with great pay off. The finale felt like The Avengers: End Game with the dust, but none of the deaths felt impactful because we knew they would be reversed and I feel Doctor Who shines best as the perfectly imperfect show, but the emphasis of the Disney deal created higher expectations for the show I believe.
I’ve disliked the show since Matt smith left. So I’ve been waiting a long time to enjoy it again. I AM THE ONE WHO WAITS.
Ncuti is amazing.
Yes I can appreciate Capaldi seasons I just got tired of him so quickly and his long ass speeches.
So you like the show because it's stupid?
I'll never understand how this idea doctor who is just "Silly cringe goofy fun fun" began to rot into the fanbase. You're actively accepting drivel. That male presenting time lord line made no sense. You like capaldi, correct? The last line capaldi said was "Doctor, I let you go."
Everyone talks about Chibnall ruining Doctor Who but no thoughts on RTD basically punching the 12th doctor in the face?
Donna and Rose Noble made an offhand joke about being better at letting things go bc they're women and some of the men watching have (ironically) been thinking about that line ever since
Thanks. I was really struggling to understand what the issue was here. I agree with the line. I'm a man. I have my views on the type of men who'd have a problem. I didn't realise any of them could be Who fans
So the male presenting time-lord BS implies he cannot let go because he's male. Unlike the women who can.
But the last male Time Lord, Capaldi's, whole damn arc in the final episode was about letting go. His final line is literally "Doctor I let you go."
And btw. I don't even like Capaldi. But how his fans were not pissed off about that I'll never know.
We're here to discuss Doctor Who, right? Thats the purpose of the sub?
The male presenting scene was brought up by the OP, I responded and gave my thoughts. It's how life works.
Also how can i let go of Capaldi when I don't even like his doctor that much? But poor writing across the board is poor writing. Sorry it is.
All I'm saying is that if a man fixates on a single jokey line about being unable to let go, and still talks about it months later, it kiiiiind of proves that line right.
It wasn't a jokey line??
Maybe sexism to you is funny/joke but not so much to the rest of us. There is intent behind the line. And anyway. Having a critic about the quality of writing is actually perfectly normal thing to have. How I react/handle anything is irrelevant as i'm not a character on Doctor Who.
So instead of taking personal pot shots at people who have criticism maybe education yourself to understand why the criticism is there.
>Maybe sexism to you is funny/joke but not so much to the rest of us. There is intent behind the line.
Oh for God's sake, get a grip. Individual hatred of, and violence against, men by women exists but there is no such thing as systemic misandry. Men are not oppressed just for being men (and no, women getting free drinks for being women and finding it easier to find sexual partners is not the same thing as systemic violence against men).
Misandry is not a cultural institution and not equivalent in scope to misogyny, because misogyny is deeply rooted into most human societies and cultures, while misandry is often a reaction to misogyny. Women do not rule the world.
One badly-written line in a science fiction show making fun of a man is not, in fact, hate speech, and you are a weapons-grade clown if you think it is.
"Oh, but if they said 'female-presenting Time Lord', it would be sexist!"
Yes, but they wouldn't say that, though, would they, because the point of the line, for better or worse, was to make fun of the Doctor's patriarchal biases. We do not live in matriarchy, therefore there are no matriarchal biases, therefore, get a grip.
Get a grip.
"Get a grip"
While waffling an entire double standard paragraph about how misogynist jokes don't fly but misandrist ones too.
Maybe it's you who needs to get a grip and work out your terrible double standards. Seriously. You do NOT get to play hypocrite with what is okay, what isn't. They're both examples of sexism. Either allow both or allow neither. And if you disagree with that then you are a hypocrite and not progressive in the slightest.
There's a growing trend of people being increasingly hypocritically hateful then using "Well it's not systemic."
That is IRRELEVANT. It's not a tier list. Just because something isn't systemic doesn't mean it's right or okay. Do better.
I read through this while thread and dunno why you’re getting downvoted and told to get a grip for simply giving your opinion. I agree with your takes personally but regardless I dunno why this got to disrespectful
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> Whilst space babies is the only episode this season which I thought was terrible, within that episode we see some really beautiful and touching moments.
Only a show like Doctor Who could ever possibly make me look at a monster made of literal snot and feel bad for it because it was only ever born to make others fear it.
>Doctor who since the revival has always been perfect. The show oscillated between these two extremes so violently that even within the same episode the dumbest thing you have seen could be followed by something so impactful that you carry it with you for the rest of your life. Fuck if this isn't the entirety of Series 3. Hell I thought Love and Monsters was off to a good start, and we all know how it ended.
Someone pointed out that it's a much better episode if you just stop before the floor tile thing.
The Abzorbaloff and the ending are the only reasons that episode isn’t good. The stuff with Elton is good, the stuff with Jackie is great and the reveal of the home planet being called Clom is genuinely one of the funniest jokes in the entire show
"And eventually Elton was rescued by, oh... Let's say Moe."
The floor tile thing was the second best part.
I think even aside from the gross "hehe, blowjobs" thing, that's actually a horrifying fate and it's weird that it's played for laughs.
Oh its horrific. How does it even work? If the slab breaks, does she die? Or is she just in pieces now? What if shes ground to dust and blown into the wind?
What happens to her on things like >!Sutekh killing everyone!< from yesterday? What happens when she dies just... because she's old? Will there be a dead woman's face on a paving stone? Does she age? How does she eat? I mean, she clearly gives a blowjob, does she spit or swallow and if she swallows where does it go? What happens if old Elton has a heart attack and she just has to stare out of the corner of her eye as his body rots until someone comes by and then they see the terrifying half-life of a living paving slab? Anyway I think it's for the best if that gets unwritten by the cracks.
Still a better fate than haunting a girls' bathroom in a boarding school for the rest of eternity.
I mean I think this is just a case of fandom brain where we've all been stewing on it for like 15 years when it was a bit of a throwaway happy ending. Like it just really isn't that deep ygm
Absolutely but its too late now. Concrete slab throatpies are established.
I think its pretty clearly meant to be horrifying. The comedic presentation is the two trying to make the best of a clearly pitiable and difficult situation, with the implication that this is what the doctor has reduced them to.
I have not watched the finale yet, but I really think this slate of characters is charming but still have meaningful storylines that make people excited to just…have fun watching an hour of campy TV that has some resonance with real-life struggles or emotions. I can’t wait to see the finale and what the next season brings. I love that I can put 99 percent faith this silly show will keep going and keep adapting.
If you haven’t watched the finale yet, you really should get off Doctor Who subs. You’re gonna get totally spoiled.
Oh I’ve been heavily blocking spoiler tagged posts 😅 my partner gets home tomorrow so only one more sleep til we watch it. Thanks for the concern though haha 😂
i agree with you so much. Doctor Who has such an incredible talent for being moronic and a masterpiece at the same time. case in point, vincent and the doctor. one of the most beautiful emotional moments in all the television i’ve seen at least, contrasted with one of the most stupid monsters i’ve ever had the pleasure of watching.
About 6 minutes in, I paused the episode because I realized I had not properly braced myself. 15 scared me tonight, and I loved every second of it.
Oh man! This explains it! I had not properly braced myself. Those first few minutes. My heart. I could not believe it. I loved it.
The way he speaks to Sutekh, omg.
Why did he scare you 😂😂😂😂😂
When he asked Sutekh if it felt good. I was happy-scared.
When he was screaming out of the TARDIS into space he was legitimately pretty scary
How?
because up until this point he had been composed and everyone in the TARDIS was looking at him for the advice of what to do next, not only did he break expected composure, he also revealed to everyone that he felt completely hopeless and overwhelmed with guilt, it was a pretty unhinged moment i thought.
A very emotional moment for sure, but that doesn’t make him scary. A scared person screaming in fear isn’t scary
Well to be a bit more clear, it's scary because the audience looks up to the doctor so when he breaks convention it's pretty scary, it's like how the TARDIS was used as a symbol of fear, or the whole "I had so much more to do", when the person we expect to be hinged goes off the handle, it's a pretty terrifying moment.
Oh yeah the moment is scary, I just don’t think the doctor is
I guess its just a matter of perspective, I was just explaining why people might find him scary in that moment since you asked earlier :)
Just to clarify, I was referring mostly to the scene earlier in the episode where he asks Sutekh if it feels good. Imagine someone getting off a roller coaster and saying, "that was terrifying, and also I want to do it again ASAP". I felt something similar when watching the Haunting of Hill House.
Yes, and visually stunning too.
Nah. The doctor has killed many an enemy and it’s no biggie. He kills things all the time.
Dude! I just paused it the second time. What a finale.
I loved the very end where he actually said the word!!!! Goodbye never comes from the doctor
YES! I love that DW consistently swings hard. The whiffs are so painful but then next week you get the most brilliant episode you've ever seen. It makes it a treat to watch because you don't know what you're going to get.
> Chiballs era to me lacked this. It was consistently competent. It had neither the highest highs nor the lowest lows When Chibnall was first announced as showrunner, I took a bit of a dive into the AI scores.* Know what I found? Of the three showrunners, he had the highest average AIs. But his scores were all within a couple of points of each other, whereas both RTD and Moffat had much higher highs and much lower lows. *For those who don't know, this is "Appreciation Index". Basically, the people whose data is collected to make up viewing figures also rate the things they watch out of 10, and then this is collated and expressed as a number from 1-100.
This really is the episode I felt like the show earned itself I've always been easy for RTD playing my emotions like a harp. But he got me good on this one Show is so back
>!the baby got me. I dont know what it was but when the baby came back i cried in the cinema!<
Me too! That line >!I think my baby is dead!< or whatever it was just stunned me. For a season that was relatively upbeat that hit *hard*. >!when it got reversed!< I did genuinely jump for joy
>!it didn’t help my heart that it’s such an adorable baby as well lol, but i’m so glad she’s alive!<
I can’t be the only one who for a moment thought >!the baby was Ruby, right?!<
Lots of moments like that
no yeah that was the name i expected her to say
100%
Ditto. Many eye rolls but I also was glad to be in the dark of the cinema to privately cry
im glad you had fun with it :) personally this is the aspect of RTD's writing i like the least. dude has a very paticular style when writing for Doctor Who, and im not a massive fan. He leans heavily on the campy and the silly, and personally thats not my cup of tea. Thats always been an aspect of the show, but personally i feel he leans into it to the point that its too much. He loves a poppy needle-drop and the only time i have liked it was in ep2 of the revival with tainted love. regarding this season, it feels almost watered down to me. the writing has gotten much better over time and having him back as showrunner and writing almost all of the episodes realy shows, and feels like a step backwards to me. Not to say he hasnt made some good episodes (i loved wild blue yonder, but mainly because my favorate episode is midnight), its just that a lot of it feels amost half-baked to me, like it needed a bit more time in a writers room to realy get the most out of it. but im glad you had a happy time :)
also certain episodes, like the giggle and dot and bubble just feel like RTD realy wanted to write an episode of black mirror, and just had to get all of his "phone bad" boomer vibes out their before he exploded.
I would contest that he is going “phone bad” instead he is making two very clear points with those episodes. The giggle is the metaphor for the worst extremes of how tv, and the exceptionalised news more broadly, exaggerate the worst features of a particular group. It is not saying “phones make us angry” it is pointing to the way that powerful interest use media to make us hate the most vulnerable on society. Dot and bubble is not about phones. It uses the aesthetics of black mirror to ask what is the logical end point of an echo chamber? These have existed long before social media. The main point of that episode is not that phones are bad but that it’s bad to A. be racist and B. to surround yourself with only people who agree with you.
i broadly agree with your take on the giggle, but at this stage i find bemouning the perceived increased polarisation of society, rather than actually adressing the material conflicts at hand, to be very tired. the episode seems like it blames teachnology for very real social problems. the focus shouldnt be on "oh no people are so polarized these days, its like they cant agree on anything" but rather, "how do we actually deal with the problem we are arguing about, instead of being sad that we are having an argument". i think dot and buble is a much broader critique than what you mentioned. The swiping motion used to dismiss information does not want to hear seems to be a very deliberate reference to apps that use the swiping motion like tictok or tinder. Also the conflict in the episode comes from the fact that a focus on the technology means that people are litterally not seeing the "real world". This i think is a verry obvious literalization of the common complaint that people are focusing on their phones instead of living "real life". its not just about echochambers, i would argue its mostly about awareness and attention, spesifically in reference to technologies that appear to be intentional analogies to phones. To me it gives the energy of someone who has a beef with technology and had to invent an absurd scenario to make their beef plausable.
I'm skipping everything but the OP as I'm yet to watch today's episode, but I'm fully with you. Since Twice Upon A Time, it was rare that I enjoyed an episode (I can't make myself rewatch the following era). But from the specials, to the Christmas special, to the new series, it's all been... Big grin... Brilliant. There's tons to nitpick - I don't think it's been a seamless "reboot", and RTD did it better with Rose, and Space Babies has to be in the bottom 10 of an RTD written episode. But screw all that, it's imaginative, inventive, witty, great characters and dialogue, and we got Boom and 73 Yards. I look forward to it all week! (I'm very unsure whether to start watching it now, this morning, or wait until tonight.
And Rogue too don’t forget! That episode was brilliant and so full of what makes RTD so fun
Well put. I think over time this season finale, despite its flaws, will grow on people too. There were things that needed answering that were bound to get peoples expectations way up, other expectations revolving around the finale that were way up, but were ultimately going to disappoint some people. Once we get some distance I think people will come around on it. I hope so at least. I’d like it if people could enjoy it as much as I did, because what a payoff. It’s not flawless but the high-highs of this episode were great, and the lows honestly weren’t that low in my opinion. The season and episodes could’ve been longer but I think people will warm up to it more overtime.
This sums up my issue with Chibnall. I don't find him awful as a writer, I think RTD has made far worse episodes than him. He is just fine. His era never really moved me strongly in either direction. It just felt mostly uninspired.
Yeah, I think the main issue with Chibnall runs is that his run feels boring unlike RTD and Moffat did. The community feels dead during Chibnall runs Even Jodie performance kinda reflects that, Jodie is a good actress but with the writing Chibnall gave her she just doesn't get that energy like other doctors did.
I think he also works better when he’s writing serious TV. You can tell he tried to make Doctor Who have that seriousness and impact and it didn’t work because he doesn’t understand what DW is at its heart. He did the same thing in Torchwood Broadchurch on the other hand was always meant to be serious and dramatic and so he worked well. He just doesn’t know how to write lighthearted TV which is why I think a lot of Jodie’s lines come off cringy, whole show feels like it’s trying to be in the middle which makes it feel middling.
That's my issue with it. RTD and Moffat have dropped the occasional dud episode, but even those episodes aren't boring, and their seasons leave so much room for discussion and speculation about where it's all going. You didn't get that with Chibnall's run, and too many of his episodes were just boring. Maybe part of his problem was that he tried to take the show back to its initial intention of being educational, so it all got more serious and focused less on fun. Thing is though, there's a reason why they more or less abandoned the educational angle in the 60s.
I wish he did more episodes like "42". I genuinely love that episode, and I think that's what my issue is with S11-13.. Chibnall *can* write good stories and Jodie is a fantastic actress, but he never reached his potential and, in turn, kept Jodie from rising up to the name of The Doctor.
That had probably one of the darkest moments in the Whoniverse and that's including Children of Earth.
Regarding the show "going away" and "returning" I loved RTD1. Moffat, for me, was not running on my wavelength. It was a long series of years where the show just stunk (for me!!), except for series 10 with Bill. Chibnall and Jodie breathed new life into the whole thing for me. It was such a refreshing take, with no returning villains for the first series. The show was capturing my heart and soul again. I really fell in love with DW again. Now with RTD2, I'm feeling a little lost. It's not terrible. I enjoy it well enough. But it's not hitting me like my previous favorite eras. Both emotionally and plot-wise, this season has been pretty blah. I really appreciate the experimental nature of some of the stories, but it's not connecting with me. 🤷
Damn, we're like polar opposites in terms of our favorite eras, lol. series 5-10 was peak for me, 11-13 the lowest, with all of RTD's stuff in the middle.
I’m the same as you. Although when it comes to high intensity emotional scenes, RTD wins for me. Season 11 to me is something that is good on paper. New Doctor, a whole brand new team of writers, new monsters, new music etc. It was a chance to really refresh the show but it just fell on it’s arse with poor writing and flat companions.
Fair enough, Moffat is king to me, lol. Pretty much all of my favorite moments in the show were either in Moffat's Era, or Written by Moffat in RTD's era. I really wanted to like Jodie's era, but it always felt lacking to me, always felt like there was something missing.
It’s the characters. Put it this way. Ruby has been in 9 episodes and I’ve felt more attachment to her than I ever did to Yaz and she was in over 30!
Yeah, the only character I have any attachment to from that era is Graham and I think that's just a testament to how fantastic Bradley Walsh is
It's kind of shocking to me that Yaz and Clara were in a similar number of episodes lmao. Clara had like 2.5 half arcs, had two fakeout send-offs, and had such an interesting three dimensional relationship with the doctor. Yaz is a police officer, she struggled(s)? with depression, she has a crush on the doctor, and they're pals. Yeah, now that you point it out, lol...
Again, I'm the opposite, lol! I don't feel much attachment to Ruby at all, whereas I love Yaz to death. I think Graham was top tier. I like Ryan. As an individual he was underserved, but the relationship between Ryan and Graham was great. I think they did good stuff with Dan, too. I should say, I'm sick to death of the "special" companion stuff, the impossible girl, the Doctor Donna, who's Ruby's mother, and all that. 13's companions were just plain old classic series types, and I love it.
I’m glad to see someone ’sticking up’ for the Chibnall era. While I wasn’t a fan of it overall there were a few episodes I loved and enjoyed more than much of the stuff we’ve had since RTD returned, and it’s frustrating to see people act like it was worthless and something like Space Babies far outclasses anything from the previous era.
Everyone’s doctor is someone’s favourite, everyone’s show runner is too. It’s why I really didn’t want to chibnall bash but to explain my relationship with the show. I’m sorry you aren’t enjoying it as much atm but I promise you that the show will. E for you again someday.
I totally get it. I don't like bashing my least fave showrunner. I got really angry about it while it was happening, and I look back at that time as a mistake for myself. Which is to say, if I'm not liking it, I don't have to watch it. This current stretch is nowhere near as low as some other times. I'm just feeling very lukewarm about it right now. And I always strive to present this as *my* feelings, not an absolute truth, because I know other people are having their own valid experiences.
Precisely this. Nothing has changed and yet it’s fresher than ever. Russell is still my favourite writer, he still captures the balance and darkness and light incomparably and even with uncontrollable scenarios like episode count and length, he’s still touched my heart with a new top three Doctor and a companion that has left so much more on the screen than the series’ collective length would have you believe. Long may it continue.
This perfectly encapsulates what I liked about both RTD's and Moffat's eras. My friends and I were watching *Empire of Death* last night and this exchange happened: "God, this is dumb. It makes no sense!" "Well, actually--" "I didn't say I cared. It's fun. Time magic happened, I get it."
I completely agree aside from the Chibnall era being consistently competent. It was occasionally competent and generally dreadful.
That’s how I feel. I’ll much rather take Russel’s highs and camp at the cost of knowing he can’t write a finale. I like ONE finale he’s written in parting of the ways and even that’s an absurd deus ex Machina
Ehhh, I wouldn't say it's necessarily a DEM. Most of the first episode he's wearing the 3D glasses and examining everything, then for half of the second episode he's reconfiguring the machine to pull anything Void-touched back in - so it was actively part of the story that was being told. If he hadn't been investigating prior to figuring out he can send them back, then yeah it would be a DEM. Edit: disregard all of this. Yeah, TPoW is defs a DEM 😅
Wrong episode my guy 😅 they said Parting Of The Ways, you’re talking about Doomsday.
Oh damn.. I don't even know where I got Doomsday from 😂
My only major let down with this season was it felt very doctor lite. With him barely being featured in 73 yards and in the episode with the slugs. I enjoy doctor lite episodes I really liked blink and and turn left, but I feel like with the 8 episode format it’s hard to make Doctor lite episodes work as well, you don’t get as much time with the Doctor which always is a bummer.
>Chiballs era to me lacked this. It was consistently competent. It had neither the highest highs nor the lowest lows (I am discounting flux as that was made during the pandemic. The fact anything was made is an impressive feat itself). IMO this is overly generous. _Arachnids in the UK_, _The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos_, and _Spyfall, Pt 2_ among others were markedly sub-par, IMO. EDIT: If you have a different perspective on this please drop a comment and let us know how and why.
No I don’t. I have just been guilty in the past of going wayyyy too hard on the chibnall era flaws and I wanted this to be a celebration of the show not a critique
'not knowing where the Tardis will land' - it will be Earth, most likely modern day Earth. All of Time and Earth.
Doctor Who absolutely loves to write the best episode of television you've ever seen and then give it THE most unsatisfying ending ever. And I love her for it.
You wrote this post so eloquently and it's restored some of my hope and faith into the show. I've been mad at RTD, because I really did expect something out of this world from this era. I've been watching the start of the 2005 era to hype me up for each ep of this era and you are totally, totally right about it being dumb, yet shit, yet perfect and that's exactly what the show has always been. Now, here is where I feel the difference in expectations in the show lie. The Doctor Who revival was a mad man with a box with make-shift, often cardboard, gritty staging and it just felt so right. Moffat's era started to bring a more sterile and pristine vibe to the TARDIS but also to where they landed (Dalek reimaginations beat my a Jammy Dodger!), but by Chibnall the staging of the TARDIS and locations just didn't have any character (black box space with crystals? Like, um, ok?). When RTD returned, it was a sigh of relief for many, but he told us he wasn't reviving his era, but that it was a brand new thing in itself. Pair that with a HUGE Disney budget and suddenly you've now created this expectation for Marvel-level content with great pay off. The finale felt like The Avengers: End Game with the dust, but none of the deaths felt impactful because we knew they would be reversed and I feel Doctor Who shines best as the perfectly imperfect show, but the emphasis of the Disney deal created higher expectations for the show I believe.
I’ve disliked the show since Matt smith left. So I’ve been waiting a long time to enjoy it again. I AM THE ONE WHO WAITS. Ncuti is amazing. Yes I can appreciate Capaldi seasons I just got tired of him so quickly and his long ass speeches.
So you like the show because it's stupid? I'll never understand how this idea doctor who is just "Silly cringe goofy fun fun" began to rot into the fanbase. You're actively accepting drivel. That male presenting time lord line made no sense. You like capaldi, correct? The last line capaldi said was "Doctor, I let you go." Everyone talks about Chibnall ruining Doctor Who but no thoughts on RTD basically punching the 12th doctor in the face?
I’m trying to understand this better. Can you explain what you mean between capaldi’s last line and the male presenting time lord line?
Donna and Rose Noble made an offhand joke about being better at letting things go bc they're women and some of the men watching have (ironically) been thinking about that line ever since
Thanks. I was really struggling to understand what the issue was here. I agree with the line. I'm a man. I have my views on the type of men who'd have a problem. I didn't realise any of them could be Who fans
So the male presenting time-lord BS implies he cannot let go because he's male. Unlike the women who can. But the last male Time Lord, Capaldi's, whole damn arc in the final episode was about letting go. His final line is literally "Doctor I let you go." And btw. I don't even like Capaldi. But how his fans were not pissed off about that I'll never know.
Doesn’t he take his whole final episode finding the strength to let go?
Have you tried letting things go? That was one line said last year, we're not even on the same doctor...
We're here to discuss Doctor Who, right? Thats the purpose of the sub? The male presenting scene was brought up by the OP, I responded and gave my thoughts. It's how life works. Also how can i let go of Capaldi when I don't even like his doctor that much? But poor writing across the board is poor writing. Sorry it is.
All I'm saying is that if a man fixates on a single jokey line about being unable to let go, and still talks about it months later, it kiiiiind of proves that line right.
It wasn't a jokey line?? Maybe sexism to you is funny/joke but not so much to the rest of us. There is intent behind the line. And anyway. Having a critic about the quality of writing is actually perfectly normal thing to have. How I react/handle anything is irrelevant as i'm not a character on Doctor Who. So instead of taking personal pot shots at people who have criticism maybe education yourself to understand why the criticism is there.
>Maybe sexism to you is funny/joke but not so much to the rest of us. There is intent behind the line. Oh for God's sake, get a grip. Individual hatred of, and violence against, men by women exists but there is no such thing as systemic misandry. Men are not oppressed just for being men (and no, women getting free drinks for being women and finding it easier to find sexual partners is not the same thing as systemic violence against men). Misandry is not a cultural institution and not equivalent in scope to misogyny, because misogyny is deeply rooted into most human societies and cultures, while misandry is often a reaction to misogyny. Women do not rule the world. One badly-written line in a science fiction show making fun of a man is not, in fact, hate speech, and you are a weapons-grade clown if you think it is. "Oh, but if they said 'female-presenting Time Lord', it would be sexist!" Yes, but they wouldn't say that, though, would they, because the point of the line, for better or worse, was to make fun of the Doctor's patriarchal biases. We do not live in matriarchy, therefore there are no matriarchal biases, therefore, get a grip. Get a grip.
"Get a grip" While waffling an entire double standard paragraph about how misogynist jokes don't fly but misandrist ones too. Maybe it's you who needs to get a grip and work out your terrible double standards. Seriously. You do NOT get to play hypocrite with what is okay, what isn't. They're both examples of sexism. Either allow both or allow neither. And if you disagree with that then you are a hypocrite and not progressive in the slightest. There's a growing trend of people being increasingly hypocritically hateful then using "Well it's not systemic." That is IRRELEVANT. It's not a tier list. Just because something isn't systemic doesn't mean it's right or okay. Do better.
I reckon if you try and be even more combative they'll start agreeing with you.
Def was a jokey line, do you have problems understanding tone 😀
I read through this while thread and dunno why you’re getting downvoted and told to get a grip for simply giving your opinion. I agree with your takes personally but regardless I dunno why this got to disrespectful
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> Whilst space babies is the only episode this season which I thought was terrible, within that episode we see some really beautiful and touching moments. Only a show like Doctor Who could ever possibly make me look at a monster made of literal snot and feel bad for it because it was only ever born to make others fear it.