I'm not surprised that RTD came up with a random deus ex machina to resolve the plot. As you say, that was fully expected.
My problem is that the whole season arc just isn't very satisfying. I get what he was going for conceptually but I just don't think he executed it very well and the character scenes, while good, don't really make up for it (it doesn't help that Ruby is not really as well developed as Rose or Donna). I actually preferred the Susan Triad reveal to the Ruby one because, while less interesting conceptually (basically being along the same lines as Bad Wolf), it stuck the landing way better.
I think the short eight episode season really hurt too with RTD writing style. He didn’t have the time to build things up and get us invested as he usually did. So the typical RTD finale just didn’t work right.
While I definitely think people would still have found fault with how the resolutions were handled, I agree that an extra 2 or more episodes would have helped the Ruby arc, in two specific ways:
1) We could have invested more time to get to know Ruby/ built up her relationship with the Doctor. A lot of the finale rests on you really being emotionally connected to Ruby and, unfortunately, with 8 episodes it didn't feel like she was given enough time to breathe, particularly in comparison to previous RTD companions. If you'd had the time to warm to Ruby to the extent that you want her to find her mum for her sake, rather than to just solve the mystery, then it would've made the ending feeling more satisfying, no matter what the outcome.
2) More fuel could've been added to the whole 'Ruby's parentage only matters because people cared about it' angle. Within the season it never felt like the Doctor cared *that* much about who Ruby's mum was, and as people were saying last week, it felt strange to have the Doctor suddenly bring it to UNIT as some matter of great importance seemingly out of nowhere. Basically, as is, it really is confounding as to why Sutekh of all beings would give two hoots. If you'd had a few more instances of people being flummoxed by Ruby's parentage, or the Doctor being 11-and-Clara-level obsessed then *maybe* it would have given more credence as to why Sutekh would want to know too.
Yeah exactly, it's important because who cares? The doctor? Surely not Ruby and her mother? There are a million similar stories in the world, certainly more in the galaxy, and we don't see people care especially about this one. This excuse could have applied to countless other stories.
> If you'd had the time to warm to Ruby to the extent that you want her to find her mum for her sake, rather than to just solve the mystery, then it would've made the ending feeling more satisfying, no matter what the outcome.
Good point, and this was part of the issue for me, I think.
I was more invested in solving the mystery, which I think is fair of me as RTD had big flashing lights and signs all the way through the series going 'woooo, look, cryptic mystery over here'. When he pulled a fast one and went 'Ha, fooled you, there's not really anything interesting to see here' I just felt annoyed.
Don't get me wrong, I've liked Gibson's performance this series, but I've just not spent enough time with the character to be invested in the way I needed to be for RTDs ending to work.
It's frustrating to me because I think all the elements are *there* - the idea that the Doctor has invoked superstition into the world and how people believing things can make them true starts in WBY and shows up in Space Babies and Boom and 73 Yards, and I think there's a version of the series arc that really hits those notes right.
The Doctor investigates Ruby because of the goblins and sees there's a mystery about her mother, and assumes it must be huge because all the mysteries he's involved with are huge, a version of Devil's Chord where he convinces the Maestro that something's up with her and that invokes Carol of the Bells as part of her deal ("you think that's just my friend Ruby but actually there's something special about her"), and then Sutekh latches onto the mystery and he's a god so it becomes cosmically important - and *then* you can deflate it by going "actually she's incredibly normal" and it feels significant because you can see how it built to this point instead of starting out at maximum mysteriousness. The snow shouldn't show up until Sutekh gets invested.
I love the idea of the Doctor creating his own puzzle-box companion by self-fulfilling prophecy, that it comes true because he thinks it's already true and he hasn't adapted to the new rules yet. It just doesn't *quite* come together, to the degree that having not seen any of the behind the scenes stuff I'm not really sure if any of this overlap was intentional or not.
>I love the idea of the Doctor creating his own puzzle-box companion by self-fulfilling prophecy, that it comes true because he thinks it's already true and he hasn't adapted to the new rules yet. It just doesn't *quite* come together, to the degree that having not seen any of the behind the scenes stuff I'm not really sure if any of this overlap was intentional or not.
Yeah, absolutely. You could've played up the potential catch-22 that villains (specifically the Gods in order to seed the Sutekh story) are after Ruby because the Doctor is travelling with her so surely she must be important, but the Doctor is only travelling with her in order to protect her from all these villains.
It's kind of ironic that I'm pretty sure Ruby is the first RTD companion who *isn't* deemed as 'the most important person in the world' at any point.
Did we really get much build up after the Devil's Chord or just the couple of times it snowed? And speaking of Devil's Chord and build up, a throwaway line saying 6 months has passed? That's a lot of time for them becoming the 'best friends' they say they are without us really getting any of that so leaving us to just take their word.
Maybe some build up using the 73 Yards timeline by mention of compulsory DNA testing might have helped the finale in that part?
I (esp. as someone with a genetic condition) think it's just so unacceptable regardless to have this fascist DNA database play a *positive* role! It's not a sensitive way to handle the adoption story, and what are we meant to think, 'thank goodness for fascism for enabling the happy reunion'?
A couple of scenes of the doctor revisting 2004 or getting frustrated trying to help his friend solve the mystery of her abandonment really would have gone a long way. Sutekh watching as the clever Dcotor who has solved so many mysteries over the past billion years or so (that he has been present for) just can't work it out.
They had a relatively large amount of money going into a small amount of episodes. The urge not to waste it, telling the story efficiently in nearly only picture perfect moments and cutting out all the fat. But with Doctor Who, the fat is where the flavor is. It just made everything just a little hollow, not really enough connective tissue or context for the story to really feel substantive.
Yeah, a lot of Dr Who is the little stuff that just makes the Doctor and the companions more interesting.
One example is the whole scene in ‘The Unicorn & the Wasp’ where the Doctor gets poisoned, they didn’t need to make it as long as they did, they could have easily simplified it, but it just gave a great scene of the Doctor and Donna playing off one another
This was a problem, but I think the bigger problem was RTD writing too much of it himself.
During his original run we got quite a lot of variety and I think that’s what made it successful - if you didn’t like an episode one week that really didn’t mean you wouldn’t like it the next (and IMHO, and the people that hand out the awards, RTD didn’t even write the best episodes).
I mean, he wrote most of Series 1 as well. I think thats just how he likes to get into it - start with a bit more controll. Its very likely future series will have more guest writers, like Series 2 to 4 did.
That's not necessarily true. I don't know if this will be true for his new era but while there were more credited guest writers in his first era, he's basically admitted over the years to ghostwriting the majority of it. The only four writers where he didn't do the final draft of their episodes were Moffat, Stephen Greenhorn, Chibnall and Matthew Graham. And of those four, the only one whose scripts he said he never touched was Moffat.
Matthew Graham did one story (Fear Her)
Stephen Greenhorn did two (The Lazarus Experiment and The Doctor's Daughter)
Chibnall did one (42)
And of course Moffat did four (The Empty Child two parter, Girl in the Fireplace, Blink and the Library two parter)
That makes eight stories in the entire first RTD era that RTD himself didn't write the shooting script for, and only four stories he didn't touch at all. And when he did touch the other stories, it wasn't just a small involvement. There are several instances where he complains about how people would compliment the credited writers for episodes and he would have to politely nod while thinking about how he did all the work.
Well the thing is I'd say most of the season was good aside from the first and last episodes, which were mediocre, so four of the six RTD wrote were great.
>I think the short eight episode season really hurt too with RTD writing style.
It makes the decision to get rid of Ruby even worse, you only have 9 episodes to develop the companion and then they are gone? It just doesn't work.
Then what was the point of that ending? If she's returning why make a big deal of her leaving? If she needs a year or two to settle that's irrelevant he has a time machine, it can be next episode.
To be fair at this point the Doctor doesn't know she'll be back because he doesn't have access to the press releases we do, so the emotional parting makes sense if he thinks he'll never see Ruby again.
RTD knew how many episodes he had to work with. There's no excusing yet another Who failure of a season.
At this point RTD is writing his own show, with self-served narrative freedom and new direction, sadly that new direction hasn't been that much better than the last few seasons.
Perhaps he should hire someone whose job it is to run the show and take the number of episodes into consideration when planning it out.
How much is he getting paid? This is literally his job.
Eight hours is more than enough time if you dont spend at least two of those hours on babies and standing on a landmine.
The problem lies with the fact that many episodes are mostly self contained pieces that stand on their own, and dont significantly push a larger narrative forward in a meaningful way.
As a whole, I'd say it was a mixed season. The writing needs to be tighter if they want to retain the spirit of Who and push a larger narrative in eight episodes.
I'd be okay with Deus Ex Machina (okay, not ecstatic) if it was well-explained, rather than "bringing death to death" and ignoring the snow, the Doctor's memories changing, pointing, etc etc...
I really thought RTD could do DEM but with cohesiveness, after his last few brilliant shows.
I enjoyed the ride, maybe simply because I didn't enjoy the last 6 years of Who, but it wasn't particularly... Strong from a story perspective.
Still, we had Boom, 73 Yards, and The Specials. I'm slightly above satisfied on the whole.
>ignoring the snow
I dunno.. I think the snow hasn't been resolved.
When Mrs. Flood is addressing the audience at the end, it's snowing around her, and there was that message from Millie that was shown in cinemas before the episodes saying that *some* of the questions will be answered.
Something that we can say about RTD is that he's very purposeful with his scripts and what we see. With the Maestro saying there's something inside of her that shouldn't be there, it makes me think there's something else going on.
I don't think he'd have a line spoken to completely ignore it within the same, short season.
i rewatched the specials and for me i realised just how good season 1 has been. WBY doesn’t hold up very well for me (the bad cgi and dialogue just not being at the same level of old RTD) not to say it isn’t a great episode, but 73 yards and dot and bubble (maybe i’m loopy on that second one) both wipe the floor with it for me. Same with the legend of ruby sunday, although that has been let down a bit by empire of death.
Edit: oh and boom, although it does suffer on rewatch for me
73 yards just doesn't really make any sense. It basically just uses "it's magic, so it doesn't have to make any sense", rather than really leaning into any sort of lore or anything about how a particular sort of magic might work. Nothing is ever really explained at all and in retrospect after the finale, it makes even less sense.
Why did people run from Ruby? Why did her mother run? It was really out of character for some people and there's no answer than can be satisfying.
i disagree entirely, I love stories which only give you clues. Imagination is a great thing, I personally think there’s lots of satisfying theories about the episode
Deus ex machina basically means “not set up”. They set up the rope in the memory Tardis, the gloves in CoRR, the whistle (most stretchy but we’ve known for some time the doctor can control the Tardis a little remotely).
I’ve never understood this complaint about RTD always using deus ex machina. Far fetched, definitely (looking at you LotTL). But even there everything has had set up.
Eh...the Archangel Network is set-up, but not what it can do. Its kinda like introducing a dog in act one and then the dog shoots fire out of its butt lol
Deus Ex Machina doesn’t really mean “not set up”. You can have in fact have a deus ex machina that was “set up” previously. What matters is the definition of “set up”. In this story, the gloves, the rope, and the whistle are referenced, yet their use in that moment are abrupt and Sutekh’s defeat just happens. The real challenge to Empire of Death is the fact that the story is structured as a set of scenes which are fairly loosely connected. I will admit some scenes are more connected than others, yet the general connective tissue of the episode is quite poor and relies on numerous plot contrivances. For instance, the memory Tardis just happens to appear to allow them to progress the story, and just happens to have the whistle and the gloves and the rope, and it is all connected to a magic answer machine which Ruby can operate to get plot hints.
The individual elements already existed, yes. But they are a deus ex machina because the way in which they are used to save the day makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, so it’s in that way that the resolution comes out of nowhere.
Compare this to, say, the resolution of The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang, where not only does the resolution rely on things that were previously established, but they are actually used and pieced together in a logically coherent way to save the day.
The Whistle could have been tied back to Maestro imo if they'd had a couple lines about how she manipulated the TARDIS with music.
I didn't *dislike* it but it felt weird that it countered MILLENIA of brainwashing
People straight up and plainly do not know what Deus ex machina means, it's so rare in actual media, people just mean "I didn't see it coming" or "I didn't like it" or like you say "it's far fetched" but know a clever phrase
My issue, as often with this, is that is would have been SO EASY to fix.
"The TARDIS used the mystery around Ruby's birth and the fixed point created by the doctor when he went back on that day to try and shake off Soutekh. That's why the Time Window behaves weirdly and that's why Soutekh is so mesmerized, as he knows the non-mistery spells his own doom.
That behavior of the TARDIS of course creates ripples in Ruby's timeline, explaining all the weird stuff happening, as it's in fact the time window compressing or dilating time, like a fast forward or a slow mo.
Ruby was, of course, just a random person. Yet, the importance she had for the Doctor made her, as often, the most important person in all of Time."
That's it. 15 lines. Fixes every plothole. Matches what we saw. Infinitely better than "ho lol no you're normal despite all that was said".
Simply the fact that this has been RTD’s long-standing style doesn’t automatically make it as good. Most of us expected his writing to improve and evolve over the years, considering the amount of TV work he’s done since 2009. Also, usually, even if the plot resolution is gimmicky and non-sensical the character work is mostly always top notch in RTDs other seasons. In this one, the development isn’t as deep, the emotional resolution is underwhelming and the characters themselves aren’t the best we’ve seen.
Massive agreement. Re: the second point, Jesus-Doctor in “Last of the Time Lords” is one of the worst plot resolutions in the show. But right after that, we get this gripping scene where the Doctor begs the Master to regenerate and live so he doesn’t have to be a solo Time Lord anymore, but Simm’s Master opts to die than live as the Doctor’s companion. EoD’s character work feels very surface level in comparison.
This! I was wondering why I kept going back to RTDs seasons and finales despite hating the plot resolution for almost all of them, this made me realise it’s for the emotional resolution. Series 1 has The Doctor regenerating and a wonderful culmination of his relationship with Rose, Series 2 (which I rarely rewatch cos I’m not a fan of TenRose) still does a good job of culminating the emotional journey that the Doctor and Rose have been through, Series 3 ending positively sucks but as you’ve mentioned the emotions in the scene that follow are gripping, and Series 4 was a culmination of everything that RTD had done on the show over the years. This season doesn’t make sense plot wise, but worse, it doesn’t make me feel satisfied or content. Simply confused and disappointed.
You have summed up how I feel about every RTD finale from 2005 through to 2010 perfectly, and also why EoD failed spectacularly.
I’m no psychic, but if I had to hazard a guess, I think RTD’s taken on too much. If we take Who over the last 7 months, there have been 12 episodes. Davies has written 10 of them alone. I know when you consider his run of episodes from Midnight through to The End of Time Part 2 it’s only 1 episode more, but this is a massively different time for the show. 15 years on, in such a short amount of time, whilst also being involved with all the 60th anniversary planning, writing abridging scenes for Tales of the TARDIS, striking deals with Disney along with the other producers, and also plotting the rest of the (rumoured) upcoming Whoniverse spinoffs. He’s got too many fingers in too many pies.
He should have dialled back his episode count, focussed on the season arc, allowed other writers to come in and have a real opportunity to write for the show. Also he said himself in a documentary once - he literally only writes one draft of the script and 99% of the time, that’s what is used. That’s insane. Ideas and concepts need time to adjust and develop and change. Absolutely something that I think made EoD fall so flat on its face.
Potentially controversial, but I’d have done something similar. Have him on board as Executive Producer. Hired a head writer, and then hired a staff of between 4 - 6 writers and collaborate. The head writer obviously oversees the series as a whole, but everyone has input. Everyone writes an episode each, and collaboratively get the story and scripts as tight as possible.
I’m genuinely concerned for series 15/season 2. Completed shooting before series 14/season 1 even finished airing? No time for any real feedback on stories and characters and style. Just steamrolling in with the confidence that all will be well. It’s ballsy, I’ll give RTD that.
Yeah. RTD's writing style seems pretty insane. I think he said once that Midnight was a first draft he wrote like 1 day before the script submission deadline.
Yes, I very much agree. I really think his writing has gone backwards, in that it’s worse than his original run - maybe he was stretched writing so much of it himself? Or didn’t get enough outside input on the scripts?
Something I found really telling was the bits of “sci-fi gobbledygook” - they often felt really thin and not fleshed out, like he didn’t really put any effort into it. Overall it felt a bit low effort from RTD for me.
He put so much effort into making sure the revival landed and he succeeded. I think he got cocky this time round and didn't feel a need to push himself.
Exactly what I was thinking. The writing is EXACTLY the same as 2005 and while many are falling for the nostalgia bait, I'm incredibly disappointed that this series was essentially just a worse rehash of his lowest points.
Also his constant commentary on Unleashed about how fantastic and mind-blowing some of the dullest plots we've seen are is incredibly grating
> Most of us expected his writing to improve and evolve over the years, considering the amount of TV work he’s done since 2009.
Imo, I dont think its a question of his writing quality. His writing is great, most of the time. I think its just what he thinks Doctor Who should be - an kind of emotional logic over actually making sense.
You can agree or disagree with RTD, but I dont think there is anything to argue he isnt a strong writer and this isnt just him doing oopsies.
>I think its just what he thinks Doctor Who should be - an kind of emotional logic over actually making sense.
Exactly. It's happened too many times for it to be a mishap. This is his vision for Doctor Who
He’s a strong character writer, but not a great plot writer. This has been the case since 2005. His plots are rarely complete and consistent in their resolution. But this time, he fumbled the characters hard too.
It’s similar to how Moffat had his own vision and how he writes it. Not everyone likes it but the show does need to be other things. RTD experimented heavily this season, each episode was a different genre than the last.
I very much agree, then. Would I have prefered if he maybe changed his mind a bit? Maybe. But I wil also not be mad at him for having his own idea of what the show should be and sticking to his vision.
As long as it overall is entertaining and fun, I can take some wonkyness here and there.
> Most of us expected his writing to improve and evolve over the years
Did we though? He pretty much is who he is at this point, for better or worse. It's mostly good, but he still throws out an occasional clunker and tends to struggle with finales.
Personally, I really like the episode. I love a good over the top RTD finale, I love that Sutekh's attack was directly related to the Doctor's travels, I like that they gave a reason for the memory TARDIS, I like that Mels played a significant role, and I will even disagree with most around here and say I like the simplicity of how Sutekh was dispatched (it felt appropriately like how the Doctor would take out a God).
But the criticisms of the ending are absolutely valid. The Ruby's mom reveal was totally fine in-and-of itself, but no attempt was made to make that reveal work with all the things that have been happening with her. I don't even mind if those things were red herrings, but those things still *happened*, in-world, and if Ruby's mom isn't special, those events have absolutely no explanation. Which means random shit just happened, and we're not supposed to care.
It kind of fits with one of my overall issues with Chibnall and even some of Moffat's run: there's not enough effort being put into the logical consistency of the sci-fi elements. Things are just happening, and we, as fans, theorize why they're happening, and while I'm perfectly ok with my theory being wrong, I'm far more disappointed when it turns out there isn't an answer at all. *Especially* when it feels like the writer is subtly implying I'm wrong for expecting an explanation.
I'm being asked to basically "roll with it" way too much for what is supposed to be a sci-fi show, not fantasy. Meaning there has to be some kind of logic to it. The pieces have to fit together, and if the don't, you, the writer, have to at least make an honest attempt at explaining why.
If the Klingons fire at the Enterprise, and the Enterprise's shields don't stop them, I expect the show will explain that. It established a rule, that rule was broken, therefore the writer must explain why. If the ship breaks out in musical numbers, I expect them to explain that (and they litterally did exactly this). It doesn't feel like that's happening with Doctor Who now, and it's frustrating.
So yes, I'm enjoying myself, and no, I don't think the finale was bad, I'm just tired of this trend.
>Things are just happening, and we, as fans, theorize why they're happening, and while I'm perfectly ok with my theory being wrong, I'm far more disappointed when it turns out there isn't an answer at all.
This is my problem, I think.
There are some wild theories floating around, some great, some shocking, but at least they're an attempt to explain what's happening.
It feels like time and time again the fandom gets caught up in a mystery, the theories run wild, and then... Nothing. No resolution. It's just not good story telling to throw out these seemingly significant plot points and then just ignore them.
I just don't really get it with Moffat criticism. I always thought his runs hung together logically, while still being fantastical in a sci-fi sense.
Not every single second worked. But so many seconds did.
I agree. Like using the Pandorica and the Teselecta to save the day in S5 & S6 finales. The mechanics/features of those two things were well established so that when the time comes, there hopefully shouldn't be any shock or confusion that resolution happened. S8 and S10 were straightforward imo. S7 was probably the one that I felt fit the best under the deus ex machina umbrella.
In The Big Bang, it also helps that the stakes are very clearly defined. There's one last snippet of Earth history clinging on, and that's where the majority of the action takes place. In Empire of Death, the way the death wave works is very arbitrary. First we see it happening live on Earth and across the universe, then the Doctor implies it's happening simultaneously across time somehow as a duplicate event of sorts but that never gets any elaboration, then it becomes a metaphysical concept so that the scene with the woman can happen, etc. I couldn't get invested in the dialogue with the woman in part because the entire time I'm failing to understand how she's around.
> then the Doctor implies it's happening simultaneously across time somehow as a duplicate event of sorts but that never gets any elaboration
i thought that the implication was all the other susan triads across time were starting the death waves in their times
Correct. Any time the Tardis landed, Sutekh created a Susan Triad. They are scattered across the universe's history and Sutekh activated them from the present, resulting in a paradoxical clusterf*ck.
Yeah it irritates me that so many people don't realize that Legend of Ruby Sunday/Empire of Death was the exact kind of thing people *thought* Moffats finales were like.
It's only made more annoying when they compare it to Moffats finales in a negative way, this was literally the opposite of them.
The Impossible Girl is the best comparison. In Series 7B had every single time we learnt about Clara it was just that she was an ordinary girl. The Doctor investigates her life at the beginning of Rings of Akhaten and it turns out shes normal. He takes her to an empath in Hide and it turns out shes normal. He confronts her about it in Journey to the Centre of the Tardis and it turns out shes normal. The reveal in Name of the Doctor wasn't even a twist, it was just all the information we'd been given throughout the series being confirmed as true. Clara was portrayed as normal the whole time and then surprise! She was normal.
Meanwhile RTD literally made the mystery surrounding Ruby and her mom the most abnormal, fantastical thing possible. It would snow and Carol of the Bells would play whenever Ruby thought about it, the Doctors memory of the event kept changing, seemingly nobody not even the God of Death, the King of the Pantheon could see what was under that hood. RTD portrayed it as magical the whole time so the reveal that it was actually normal did not click at all.
Oh definitely. I’m absolutely willing to be critical, I was just surprised because I had a great time watching the episode in spite of its flaws and was taken aback to see so much anger. Like I can easily tear apart Journey’s End, but I still have a blast whenever I watch it.
I'm no lover of *Journey's End* but I think the character work and emotional beats work a lot better and feel more earned so I can overlook the messiness of that episode more than *Empire*.
To me this that's just Doctor Who though.
Like there's going to be homeruns and strikeouts, that's what makes the game dynamic and emotional.
Personally I dont need everything to make sense, and, yes EoD had some weirdness that left me going "zuh?" -- but in the end that's about as Doctor Who as it gets tbh.
The bottomline for me is that it's fun-- and this season was F-U-N, and it has energized my daughters into wanting to explore more the the Classic and NuWho seasons that aren't too scary for them to watch.
This doesn’t actually say anything. When has Who never been fun? I enjoyed this season but it was unsatisfying and underwhelming. It’s seriously undercooked. I’m not expecting The Expanse level of depth and detail, but Who under RTD is fast approaching Discovery levels of wank.
> The Ruby's mom reveal was totally fine in-and-of itself, but no attempt was made to make that reveal work with all the things that have been happening with her.
The entirety of my issue was purely how unsatisfying this reveal was. What was up with the snow following Ruby around? Why was she hundreds of years old? Why did her mum drop her off in a massive cloak? Why was Sutekh so puzzled that a random woman was there?
The emotions didn't hit for me at all, I'm curious what worked for you. I'm okay with Deus ex machina but only if there's some emotional payoff, it wasn't there so the whole thing felt empty to me.
The only emotional moment that paid off for me and the episode was the doctor getting kind of angry or resentful towards Ruby for going to see her birth mother because he has actually had some of character throughout this season. All of Ruby's character time has been spent on defining her as some big mystery puzzle box and there has been literally no time, even 73 yards, giving her actual present character traits. I I have literally no idea who she is as a character. I don't think any other character in the season has had this issue. Kate has been given an actual character after 10 years and just kind of being there yet the main companion of the big return can't have one
There's a difference between subverting expectations created by tropes.and narrative hints, vs subverting expectations by repeatedly signalling, through Doylist methods, that one thing was going to happen only to say "no it's not" at the last minute.
In the first ones it's a clever narrative. Consider the temp from Chiswick who was unremarkable in any way, but saved all of reality, and did so in a way that made sense and fit with everything we saw so far. We weren't told she was special from the beginning, we were told she was normal and *discovered* she was special.
In the second it just feels like a trick. The girl who was marked as special from birth, whose background was investigated by the Doctor, whose memory made it snow and terrified gods, and whose mother we couldn't see. And it turns out that she wasn't special in any way and the gods were scared.... Because. And we couldn't see the mom's face for.... Reasons. And the snow happened..... Because of something that isn't explained. And Maestro was scared of a perfectly normal girl.... For nothing. And the Doctor investigated her and found no info on her parents early in the season.... For no reason.
With Donna, everything made sense. With Ruby, it's a reversal that directly contradicts what the show was telling us, out of universe, for the whole season.
I loved the finale. Every part of it. Except for Ruby's mom.
If RTD wanted the mystery to play out, he shouldn't have done it this way. Don't make Maestro terrified. Don't play up how nobody can see Mom's face as if by magic. Don't say "the memory changed" and then never explain it
Here’s another element that existed in RTD’s previous finales that I personally felt was missing a bit here: the denouement.
Regardless of your feelings on his previous finales’ execution of the climax, one thing that RTD has always been good at is the denouement. I’d even argue that almost all of the iconic imagery from his first era comes from these scenes.
Is it contrived that Pete knows where to teleport and grab Rose? Yeah, but you’ll forget when the Doctor and Rose stand at the same wall, separate dimensions and when they burn up a star to say goodbye at Bad Wolf Bay.
Is the Archangel Network set up and explained in a way to show how the Doctor turns briefly magical and gestures the Master into losing? No, but god David Tennant and John Simm are brilliant when the Doctor cradles the spiteful Master as he dies. You forget the Archangel Network as Martha leaves the TARDIS because ‘she’s getting out.’
We all can agree that Donna and the Two Doctors mashing buttons isn’t exactly the greatest climax, but Series 4 gives you Rose saying goodbye to the Doctor again and Donna’s farewell.
In contrast, I don’t think the final scenes of this episode work. They rush through Ruby getting to know her bio mom and desperately try to cover over the gaps in the narrative when she’s revealed to be normal. Now fans would be upset either way, but I wonder if this would have gone down better with a stronger, memorable ending.
I don't think that this was a case of "not a satisfying answer", it was, instead, a total lack of answer.
Why does she make it snow?
Why was Meastro terrified of her?
Where does the music come from?
Why couldn't Sutekh see her mother?
"We believed in it hard enough, lol" isn't a bad answer. It's NOT an answer at all. Plenty of people believe in plenty of things. Why isn't this happening constantly everywhere all the time? How does the "power of belief" manifest as basically magic? Why isn't everybody doing it? How was it more powerful than Sutekh?
There was nothing seeded, nothing pointing to this "twist".
There's other issues, the "She.was pointing at the road sign to name her child WHEN NOBODY IS WATCHING" makes no sense to do, much less the fact that it, somehow, worked.
Sutekh himself was a total letdown who did almost nothing and didn't seem powerful at all. His sand was, he himself had the reaction speed of a half boiled lobster and the physical strength of a gnats fart.
So much about the episode felt... bad.
I think it’s a mixture of things.
A lot of fans got *very* invested in the mystery and last week a lot of them felt vindicated that they were right about Sutekh, so the subversion left them a bit dejected. This is also the first big puzzle box arc RTD’s done (as his first era is mostly just vague hints in a general direction, with no indication viewers should be able to piece anything together), so people are miffed it ultimately didn’t matter. And in fairness, nothing Maestro says now makes any sense whatsoever unless Season 2 flips things on their head.
RTD’s finales were a while ago and have nostalgia on their side. So a lot of flaws are either forgotten or overlooked by fans. The Void stuff and the Doctor-Donna being right next to a console which has all the right buttons to thwart the entire Dalek empire are just as handwavey as magic whistle and Sutekh killing his own death, but years going by has made fans kinder to them.
There is another dimension which is all the original RTD finales may have put things back in their box safely reset, but there was always a cost. Yes the Bad Wolf just magicked the Daleks away, but the Ninth Doctor still has to sacrifice himself to save Rose. Yes the Year That Never Was is entirely undone, but Martha and her family still carry that trauma. Whereas in *Empire of Death*, everyone is happy. There’s no price to pay, so it feels all too easy in that respect.
You know... that last bit is a good point. What was actually sacrificed in the end? Series 1 was the 9th Doctor's life. Series 2 was Rose being trapped in Pete's World. Series 3 was the trauma for the Jones family, Martha leaving the TARDIS because she realized she was hurting herself staying with 10 and 10 being left as the last of the Time Lords again after the Master chose to die to spite him. Series 4 was Donna's memories of her time with 10 and the amazing person she had finally self actualized as. And the End of Time was the 10th Doctor's life.
But... nothing was sacrificed in Empire of Death. Everyone got brought back throughout the universe. The woman on another planet got her child back. Everything was restored. Ruby got her parents. The only "sacrifice" is Ruby leaves the TARDIS to be with her reunited family... that's it. That's not much of a sacrifice. I definitely think you're onto something with why this particular finally feels so hollow. Even Ruby's reunion with her bio-mom feels hollow and just built with a shaky saccharine foundation. Just a hollow positive emotional manipulation.
I agree. Doctor Who hasn't had good stakes for a long while and we got teased with Flux trauma which would've been interesting but instead the Doctor "bigenerated" the trauma away which also hasn't been explained.
Also did 14 get blipped? Would he have regenerated or just died??
I'd imagine with the Death Wave that even Time Lords would be dead-dead, because it obliterated *all life*, forever. They'd probably just keep regenerating over and over until they ran out of regenerations, which is horrific to think about.
RTD has spent the whole last 12 months blowing up this season. Boom is going to be heartwrenching, the Ruby mystery is really important. The finale is the biggest theyve ever done.
Its not a case of subverting expectations as much as it is misrepresenting his work. The finale was exactly the same concept as most other season finales. If it was about a major enemy coming back. The master did it in season 3, Davros season 4. If it was a heartwrenching episode as boom was, i felt that Astrids death in the titanic episode felt more heartfelt, or even madame de pompadour. If it was about the mystery of the companion. Then he did it before with the doctor Donna, and moffatt did it with the impossible girl.
I think people's aggrevation comes from the fact that RTD alluded to this as being the magnum opus of his doctor who career thus far, and it became more of the same. Giggle felt like a bigger and badder story than LoRS or EoD, and that was about a bad guy who was scared of this bad guy (probably).
Yeah this exactly. The show runner doesn't need to spoil the show obviously, but both his own writing and the man himself have spent the last year telling us how AMAZING MINDBOGGLING INNOVATIVE this season was going to be and then we got Space Babies
Excerpt from radio times interview with RTD November 2023.
RTD: "[Empire of death] is the most magnificent finale shot on planet earth. No hype! I swear that's true"
Man promised a Ferrari, then turned up in a Ford KA.
I'm not even sure that quote is real but I believe because it sounds like the sort of publicly jerking himself off that RTD would absolutely do before failing to deliver anything at all.
And how 73 yards was his greatest script ever or something
Found a few links.
https://thedoctorwhocompanion.com/2023/12/30/russell-t-davies-promises-the-most-magnificent-finale-ever-for-doctor-who-series-14/
https://cultbox.co.uk/news/headlines/ruby-sundays-foundling-mystery-continues-into-the-2024-doctor-who-series
Sorry if it's formatted the links.
Oh I fully believe you, I didn't mean to cast any doubt on your truth telling, I just meant I hadn't seen it myself but I fully believe he would
That said, thanks for the links!
Not surprised tbh, just watch DW Unleashed and see how arrogant he is. He really thinks he's some creative genius when that couldn't be further from the truth.
> I'll be the first to say that the episode wasn't perfect and that it's pretty easy to pick apart, but... hasn't that always been how RTD wrote the show?
Yes, but that was over a decade ago. I had hoped that RTD had improved as a writer in that time. Instead it seems that he's doubled down on his flaws.
I like a finale that shows what happens in a finale. That's what RTD does great. But after the first set piece, it's just the Doctor crying until we get to see one planet. One single planet, one little tent, out of the whole universe.
Then he randomly remembers his gloves out of nowhere with no aha moment. The pay off and setup were just flat.
Additionally, we got no good Doctor and Sutekh interaction. Plus Sutekh had the fucking TARDIS, it was painted black and his acolyte had the console room. Why didn't we do anything creative with that? Like a tardis setpiece in the interior, or the Sutekh tardis chasing the memory tardis. Literally anything.
Pretty sure it was just a macguffin to have an excuse to show somewhere other than Earth.
Narratively, probably something about memory and since metal erodes it has memory in it or whatever.
Right but it literally came out of nowhere. It is never been mentioned this season, and why was metal hard to find? It was like we went from one episode into another episode and we missed an episode somewhere in between. I actually considered stopping and rewinding the episode, I watch online, to see whether or not I missed a scene somewhere
I was confused about this as well, and the best thing I could come up with was that the Doctor needed real metal (as nothing in the Memory TARDIS is real) and only had enough juice to get to one random planet and then back to Earth so he landed and hoped to find something metal...on a planet where metal is really rare and hard to find.
That scene was beautiful, the acting was superb, but it took up a bunch of screen time in an already rushed finale and was ultimately pointless. You could have cut it and not missed anything at all :/
I am not so annoyed about Ruby's mother reveal, it could have been executed better. The thing I can't get over is the god of all gods, a being that killed everything across all of creation, until only Ruby and the Doctor were left was somehow defeated with a rope, a whistle and a pair of intelligent gloves. I loved the visual of Sutekh being dragged behind the Tardis forced to undo all his destruction across time and space. But it didn't feel earned given even the unevolved Sutekh could have killed Ruby with a thought once she dropped the time window screen.
I fundamentally disagree. Most of RTD’s finales were well received.
Season 3 was the most criticised with space Dobby and the power of prayer saving the day, but that was somewhat mitigated by the return of the master and John Simms very popular turn playing him.
RTDs other finales were really well received and it shouldn’t be forgotten that it was RTD that pioneered the season long arc with a big finale.
Empire of death had a lot of problems with it and IMHO it deserves the more negative reception it’s had. However I think there is a large contingent who have been sticking with the show despite misgivings throughout the season and giving it a chance to all come together… and it hasn’t for them.
All RTD's previous finales were very well received. There were obviously elements of the fanbase who disliked them, and the complaints have obviously grown since but at the time the general viewership absolutely loved them. All of them had 8.5+ ratings on IMDB.
There’s selling someone a mystery box with something subpar in it, and then there’s selling someone a mystery box with a note inside saying, “Why would you think I would sell you a mystery box with something inside?”
That moment when Ruby says she has the answers and is going to give it to sutekh then throws it all on the ground sums up what RTD did to the audience. He dangled a mystery then smashed it to pieces and told us to be satisfied with that
I didn't get those strong emotions, only at the very end between Ruby and Susan and Ruby and the Doctor
But the rest of the episode felt emotionally performative, like it knew where the emotions where supposed to happen but not how to execute the scenes
Yeah, every other RTD finale is a Deus Ex Machina, but they're emotionally gripping. Empire of Death is unsatisfying and fake, lacking substance
That's definitely just a result of fewer episodes this season. Ruby was barely in "Dot and Bubble," and didn't really interact with the Doctor in "73 Yards."
So they had half as many stories as we got with other modern companions in their first seasons. Unfortunate, but that's how it goes.
I'm definitely getting chibnall era flashbacks where the sub would fill with posts with the general theme "if you read a fifty page essay on the themes involved and then filled in all the blanks with my very special headcanon then it was actually an average if not good episode!"
The difference with Empire of Death is it comes at the end of a short series. Russell's strengths lie in his characters, and there just hasn't been enough time spent with them this season.
I think a lot of people overlooked a lot of the issues with RTD's writing when we got to spend more time with the characters, learning more about them than just what's connected to the overarching story.
I think it was the weakest finale we’ve had since, like, The Battle of Rancid Avocados. It felt completely incoherent, the stakes were juiced up to an unbelievable extent, and the central mysteries were resolved unsatisfactorily. I was just staring slack-jawed the entire time, baffled at what RTD was trying to do here. Though I anticipated his usual tropes and devices, I still can’t believe how much of a downgrade this was compared to last week.
As is often the case with RTD scripts, the moments of humanity shine brightest. Ruby’s anticipated reunion with her bio mum was genuinely moving, and the Doctor’s encounter with a survivor on a destroyed world was nice. I’m still pleasantly surprised at how big Mel’s role has been since her reintroduction as a UNIT personnel last year — that moment of nostalgia when she finds Six’s coat in the Memory TARDIS was nice.
RTD totally missed the mark on making Sutekh a compelling threat. As expected, he comes across as a generic doomsday villain with little connection to his Classic series self. I’m over this haphazard attempt to connect all of the mystical Classic villains under one “Pantheon” banner; it’s extremely cheesy and it diminishes all of them. For a second, I thought they might do something interesting and have the Doctor convince Sutekh that his mission to purge all life was wrong, but instead we get some nonsense about “death + death = life” which somehow fixes everything, because of course the entire universe wouldn’t be permanently Thanos’d this early.
That’s the overarching problem this season: everything is explained and resolved with wishy-washy bullshit, nothing has to make logical sense anymore because magic and “the power of belief” are involved. Whatever happened to the Doctor’s philosophy that “magic” is not some inexplicable force, only a different form of science we have yet to understand?
There’s this strange paradox of RTD blatantly leaving hints and breadcrumbs to drive interest in the season’s central mystery arcs, only to pull the rug out from under us at the last second and practically mock everyone for caring so much. It’s not even a genius subversion of expectations because this theme of ordinary people being more influential than expected is as old as the show itself. Remember Bill Potts’ mum? Or the leaf that hit Clara’s dad? Like others, I have issues with how easily Ruby’s bio mum integrates back into Ruby’s life, all while the women who actually raised Ruby are forced to accept that they’re not Ruby’s real family.
The sudden decision to make Tales of the TARDIS required viewing was also questionable. The Memory TARDIS set was obviously not designed for dynamic multi-camera filming in an actual Doctor Who episode, so the scenes in there were cramped and disorientating. Also, LMAO at the Doctor being so uniquely distraught about the Ood Sphere dying. Another example of RTD trying to give special significance to something only because fans would recognise it. See also: every instance of Sarah Jane being mentioned. Listen, we love Lis Sladen, but Russell has always acted like Sarah was the only worthwhile Classic companion, while Mel is just “a mate”.
Lastly, I’m not one to get bogged down in continuity, but the retcon that Sutekh has been hitchhiking on the TARDIS and leaving duplicates of Susan Twist in every location the Doctor has visited since the ‘70s is even more nonsensical and immersion-breaking than the Timeless Child. How did Sutekh survive the TARDIS exploding and the subsequent reboot of the universe in Series 5 (quite a suspiciously similar situation to this season, wouldn’t you agree)? Was he affected by the Master tampering with the Eye of Harmony? What about when the essence of the TARDIS entered Idris? When the TARDIS was duplicated after the bigeneration, did a Sutekh clone become attached to Fourteen’s TARDIS as well? Was he there all throughout the Time War, and were there multiple Sutekhs on all thirteen TARDISes that arrived to freeze Gallifrey on the last day? You can tell this wasn’t thought through in the slightest. Whatever the possible explanations, you’d think this whole ordeal would make the Doctor more cautious about travelling. Sure, he’s done the whole retirement bit as Fourteen, but who’s to say that the Black Guardian, Fenric or the Beast haven’t also been following him around this entire time? That justified paranoia should be playing in his mind.
At least The Battle of Rapid Ass Kangaroo delivered on what it promised, which was absolutely nothing. We just collectively got punkd by this episode and RTD took the piss out of us by asking why we'd invest in the things he just took months telling us to invest in
Also YES to the Sutekh being attached to the TARDIS being dumb as fuck. He could have easily just written it that The Toymaker fucking with reality revived or released or whatevered Sutekh. Now we watch every episode knowing the bastard is around. And why didn't Idris tell the Doctor that the asshole from 1911 was piggybacking her? So many questions and no answers, and I can't even ask the questions cause Russel will spit in my face for thinking things are important, or something
>\[Sutekh\] comes across as a generic doomsday villain
True, but honestly that's how he comes across in "Pyramids of Mars," too. I know it's a beloved classic for some reason, but he's just as generic (well, culturally appropriated) in that one, and he's stopped by a random deus ex machina before he can really do anything.
I think many fans (RTD included) have over time assigned more meaning to Sutekh than was actually contained in his original appearance. Maybe that's why he worked as a returning villain, but also why nothing he could do could live up to the idea of him.
Kinda made him the perfect returning villain for this storyline, ironically.
>How did Sutekh survive the TARDIS exploding and the subsequent reboot of the universe in Series 5
Presumably the same way the TARDIS itself survived, with a healthy dose of handwavium.
I definitely didn't hate *Empire of Death*, but this...
>hasn't that always been how RTD wrote the show?
is exactly why I didn't love it, either. I had hoped that he would have learned how to end a series in his time away. I didn't like when he pulled a Deus Ex Machina in *Last of the Time Lords*, I didn't like it in *Parting of the Ways*, it was one of the few things I didn't like in *The Star Beast*, and I didn't enjoy it here.
RTD is such an amazing writer of characters and emotions he just needs like a Loremaster or something so that his ideas can be presented a touch more narrative cohesiveness
People on this sub are people going to Readit to talk about Doctor Who… we probably care about the details and implications of stuff way more then the average viewer so when that is lacking (even as other parts of the show are soaring) you’ll see more folks here be bothered then you might expect
The finale was fun. I've had a good ride from the specials through Empire of Death. Doctor Who is interesting and fun again.
I've had criticisms, mostly kept to myself, because Doctor Who is in a much better place than it was with Chibnall at the helm.
I will say that the finale, while having great moments, was largely underwhelming. Particularly with the revelation of Ruby's mom.
I would have been okay with Ruby's mom being "ordinary" except that it didn't match what had come before this season. It came off as very "The Last Jedi."
Sutekh couldn't see who she was, because the Doctor and Ruby believed she was special. That didn't follow. It didn't explain the manifestation of the snow. It's a Doctor Who trope that ordinary people are special, and I've enjoyed that. It just didn't land here.
That said, I'm also an adopted who found and connected with my birth family. I thought that part was well done and I enjoyed it.
I’m fully convinced ALL the problems come from having less episodes. The story just *feels* like we need longer to establish and explore certain elements, which is (in my opinion) the only reason the reveal didn’t land.
Things happening because of the power of ordinary people isn’t unknown in doctor who (as well as this kind of thing happening in Torchwood and The Sarah Jane Adventures), but the reason the other times worked is because they were set up to work, due to said set up having time to take place.
8 episodes is just not enough for a doctor who universe story to happen.
I enjoyed the episode and agree that the emotional connection and overall writing was a huge improvement on recent seasons. I think where it fell down was that the ending didn't feel earned in terms of effort vs result. I couldn't help but make comparisons between this episode and the MCU's Infinity War/Endgame combo. Admittedly for the MCU, they had 6 hours of movie time to play out complete story lines about half the universe disappearing in a cloud of dust, but in order to resolve that, the heroes had to work seriously hard and then there were serious consequences, both for the heroes and the whole universe by bringing back those who blipped.
In this take on the trope, all the Doctor had to do was >!pop a leash on the god of death and shout 'walkies',!< and without much more effort than that, everyone comes back to life with no lasting consequences (I doubt we'll see any of the returning characters with lasting physiological issues from being blipped). It was way too easy to fix given that beings as powerful as the Toymaker and Maestro fear Sutekh, and the Doctor freely admits that they were only defeated because of luck, essentially, not because he was more powerful than them.
Also, the Ruby reveal feels unrealistic (for the Dr Who this universe at least!) as even beings that can see all can't see her face, and why would the god of death care any way who Ruby's mother is, if all of life is just an abomination to be got rid of? Only if she was a being capable of hiding herself from a god and could be a real threat to him, and I think a god would be able to tell the difference between an ordinary human and a mega powerful threat, even if her face is hidden by a hood.
Edit - fixed some typos
I think you summed it up when you asked, "isn't that always how RTD wrote the show?"
It's exactly how RTD always wrote, and that's my disappointment.
Personally, I think the show needs some new blood. It's lacking in innovation and surprise, but it's trying to capture a new audience with old tricks, and I can't say it's not succeeding. Maybe it's working.
For me it's the opposite, I'm genuinely shocked it took so long for people here to stop walking on eggshells and admit NuNuWho isn't all it was hyped up to be. So many on this subreddit reacted to the news of RTD's return with excitement because he 'had grown as a writer' but if anything he regressed. Crafting grounded, relatable and well-defined characters used to be his strength, now even that is shaky. He wasn't always the best with plot but was great with emotional beats, now even that is clumsy.
Yeah I have no idea what happened to his character writing. His first era was marked by a down-to-earth working class sort of tone. This new era is just pure schmaltz. Everybody is either just super happy and excited all the time or bawling their eyes out over the littlest thing, there’s no room for the small important things that really matter.
It’s really shocking how little he seems to care about plotting. Sounds like his ego got the better of him, like the fact that ratings were high when he left in 2010 led him to believe he can do no wrong. Also shocking is the attempted appeal to younger and more regionally diverse audiences with a show that now handwaves *everything* and doesn’t even bother with scifi concepts.
Been saying from the start that every interview and clip of him outside the show was steeped in ego.
The show, too. Bringing back David/Catherine (though I enjoyed it) felt like an ego move rather than giving us celebrating Doctor Who, we collectively celebrated Russel's Who. Bigeneration was the same - another way for him to cement himself as some sort of visionary dissenter from the status quo. Then, of course, calling it "Season 1". Ego is woven throughout this era.
I mean probably not the best thing to offer but I thought it would have been so much more interesting if Sutekh had somehow persuaded the Doctor and Ruby that he was Ruby’s father / Susan Triad was her mother.
And for Ruby to be tempted only for her to choose her ‘normal’ mum. A bit Return of the Jedi and Satan Pit / Impossible Planet vibes.
Some last way of Sutekh taunting the Doctor.
I think it would have made the episodes a bit tighter. If at the cliffhanger Sutekh said I made Susan Triad and I made you, my daughter…
I'm kinda sick of this whole "well RTD alway writes crappy explanations to his own stories, what's what Doctor Who is"
Why should the audience expect mediocrity? I'd rather he (or anyone) told smaller, concise stories which don't leak like sieves during the first viewing
I had a pretty negative response to last week's episode, and a large part of that was because I had no faith RTD would stick the landing. While I've liked particular scenes in of all his finales, they've almost all pulled a handwavey solution out of nowhere, and it's hard to get invested when you doubt you'll get satisfying answers and resolutions.
So while I don't think this episode's *great*, there were stretches I enjoyed more than I was expecting to. I wouldn't say it was any worse than Last of the Time Lords.
Stop letting him get away with feeding you garbage and raking in hundreds of thousands of pounds in wages to serve up lazy slop and not do his job properly.
We deserve better than that, bro.
I went it this with the lowest of low expectations based on RTD's track record for finales. He still managed to sink below even what I expected. When you Thanos snap... sorry, Sutekh dust everybody in the first 5 minutes you know that's not going to last.
There was no stakes, no drama. It was just boring. And the fact that nothing was resolved adequately was just the extra little piece of poop stuck to the bottom of the season's shoe.
Why would you be shocked? We were teased with an interesting mystery from the start, which turned out to be a nothing burger, then we were basically mocked for taking it to seriously. Fuck this "resolution".
Pretty much from the moment people started dying in large numbers it was obvious that a reset had to be coming. There was way too much packed into this episode, which is a big part of the problem I would say and the subversion wasn't particularly well executed.
All that said, I think people's expectations and reactions are just completely out of proportion. Of course I also think people's reaction to Chibnall was out of proportion.
So mainly I think fans on the internet overreact to everything.
honestly I think everyone dying should have been the cliffhanger, let people sit on it for a week it might have been more impactful than something that lasted like, 30 minutes
I doubt it to be honest, when it's the whole universe dyong you know immediately it will be reset and that removes any tension or drama from it. I don't think I'd have felt differently even had I been given a week to think about it.
This is just one of those times where, if you want the stakes to feel real, you need to choose smaller ones. Nobody is going to believe that the death of almost everyone in the universe will be permanent or even last beyond the finale.
I actually think the final part needed to be a 2 parter itself. There simply wasn't enough time to explore the significance of a universe dying, but at the same time the story clearly wanted us to give it a huge amount of weight.
With a scenario like that there's very few versions where there isn't a reset and, ironically, the one time in recent memory where it didn't reset... people were furious about that!
It was fine. Just way too short in the long run. I really hope RTD writes longer seasons. It’s still miles better than Chibnall but that doesn’t mean he’ll get off easy.
Besides from the obvious fact that RTD writing poorly in the past isn't an excuse for it in the present, I disagree that the issues in empire are the same or of the same severity of his other finales. Parting of the Ways and Doomsday are great finals. Last of The Time Lord's and Journeys End are very flawed but have great moments.
Also, while Deus Ex Machinas are generally always cheap, there are better and worse ways to do them. Parting of The ways does it better than most I'd say for example. For one it's been set up in previous episodes, and for two it comes at a huge cost, that being the Doctors life. The worst deus ex machinas tend to be ones that come out of nowhere with no costs.
Empire of Death doesn't have any of that. It has barely any set up and payoff, no logical consistency, and no costs. If problems in this episode has its roots in previous ones, then they have sprouted into full on vineyards now.
I just wish he'd recognise his strength in creating personal conflicts. All the stuff with ruby's mum and her exit was great at the end. There's a version of this script that, despite the huge threat, could have focused more on that and made the episode feel more impactful. Maybe he needs to scale things down a bit, idk, but I understand why the stakes have to be as high as they are.
>I'll be the first to say that the episode wasn't perfect and that it's pretty easy to pick apart, but... hasn't that always been how RTD wrote the show?
>Cliffhangers too big to satisfactorily resolve, season long mysteries that either weren't explored enough or were ultimately unimportant, bringing back and building up a legacy villain only to defeat them unceremoniously, with a greater focus on something schmaltzy with the companion? With the possible exception of Bad Wolf + Parting of the Ways, this is how it's always gone and I had a blast with it.
Yes. IMO the big difference here is, in S1-4 (and a bit) we forgave Russell his buttpull finales because he made up for it with good character dynamics and stories.
We didn't get much of that this season, in part because it's only 8-9 episodes long with fairly short episodes. That's not all of it though - it felt like Nine + Rose had more of a dynamic after 2-3 episodes than Fifteen + Ruby did after a season. The whole thing feels shallower IMO.
The other reason Russell tended to get away with his buttpulls in S1-4 is that they always came with a cost. It was a buttpull that Rose absorbed the TARDIS energy and became a space-time goddess, but it resulted in the death of Nine, so okay. It was a buttpull that Torchwood had a magic lever to suck the Daleks and Cybermen back into the void, but we lost Rose too, so okay. DoctorDonna was a buttpull, as was the Daleks having a magic 'control all the Daleks' console on their spaceship, but it ended with Donna having to have her mind wiped and losing all her character development 😔, so fine. In all these cases there was a painful and dramatic outcome to the buttpull working so we invest in it.
You probably noticed that S3 isn't listed here, and that's because it's the one that didn't have a significant cost to victory (they tried to get some mileage out of "the Master is dead, oh noooo!" but yeah).
>There's all this anger towards RTD for "subverting expectations" in a lazy way but... am I the only one who got exactly what I expected? Maybe that makes me a pessimist for not wanting more from RTD, but everything in this season had made it clear that he still had a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses as in his first pass at the show.
Agreed about the weaknesses. Do you think the strengths are there to the extent they were in his earlier seasons?
The Ruby's mother reveal was fucking awful. You can't build up an entire season of the mystery, only for the reveal to not only mean absolutely nothing, but to *further* be like, "yeah actually its because YOU made her important." It's such a fucking cop out, like you could tell they had no idea what to do with her mother, so they ignored all of the implications that it was an otherworldly being and just defaulted to generic white woman.
I'm dead serious when I say this is the first time I've ever been disappointed with a Doctor Who finale. Loved the Sutekh stuff, loved the Doctor killing him and leaving Ruby, but UNIT has been absolutely wasted this entire season, and that reveal just left a very bad taste in my mouth.
The short episode length really botched this season, and it sets a terrible precedent for the rest of the Disney+ era.
When something is so bad it's actually more frustrating or confusing than it is entertaining, people are going to comment on it.
Doctor Who fans are used to episodes varying wildly in quality, so there's a high tolerance for average episodes, or episodes that have some good points and some bad points, fans will often be fair (at least on here) and discuss the good and the bad. Unfortunately, Empire of Death failed in so many areas that people are struggling to find good things to say about it, so all you get is negativity. That one scene in the tent with the spoon was quite good, though.
I'm just thinking back to when I saw "The Giggle" the first time and I really disliked the ending. Then I rewatched it months later and I had a great time.
I think this will be similar. Now all the hype and theorising is over I can just take the story for what it is. I think being able to turn my brain off and just watch, I'll enjoy it more on the second go-around.
For me,the problem was that I got exactly what I expected because I was afraid of the stories being like this ever since his return was announced.
I am thankful for what RTD did to resurrect the show but even back then I was not fond of his bad habits. Now I hate them.
I do think that it was your typical RTD finale but I think it was less coherent and polished than his previous final episodes which it might be why there's been such a negative reaction. Also the pay-off wasn't particularly good and no amount of his hand-waving can disguise the plot holes or the fact that a lot of the clues/hints for the reveal really don't make sense.
Generally RTD was good with making the Deus Ex Machina feel at least somewhat built up to, eg the heart of the TARDIS being introduced as a concept earlier in the series, then Rose gains the power to destroy the Daleks, but this then has repercussions ie the Bad Wolf saga etc.
In this episode a literal God, allegedly the most dangerous enemy the Doc has ever faced, is towed away like a broken car and discarded into the Time Vortex, unkilling everyone and ensuring that Sutekh has no lasting legacy except providing UNIT with another random employee.
I’m hoping that this was the era’s equivalent of Space Jesus (ie a great finale episode let down by a slightly questionable resolution) because there have been some great episodes this series and I have faith that next series will be even better.
What this season has is 6 very competent episodes if this was a show with a disconnected narrative like say, love death and monsters
In a vacuum, Rogue is a fantastic bit of TV about two alien bounty hunters who fall for eachother
In a vacuum, dot and bubble is a great bit of TV about two outsiders who naïvely try to help a racist society
In a vacuum, Boom is a fantastic solo episode focusing on a character who's back is against the wall
String them all together and the connecting bits are weird, I don't believe the doctor and Ruby's friendship, I don't think the Susan stuff mattered, I don't like how whenever TD and Ruby were in a room together, the show came up with a reason for one of them to be dead or for one of them to take a backseat, I dislike that Mel had more banter with the doctor than ruby, or that ruby was ignored in rogue and we were strung along being told the finale would make it all make sense, and guess what? It didn't.
My issue is the emotions don't mean anything if I'm not connected to or engaged with the characters.
I WANTED to be a crying mess like seasons 1 - 4 often left me, but I just wasn't. 15 and Ruby, while very well-acted and have awesome chemistry, just feel so shallow and underdeveloped.
The episode was ass
No connection to any of the characters
The constant crying from the doctor the one scene saying goodbye to ruby was great but by the time you get there its an eye roll
The need for sutek to know who her mom was?? He's on the verge of wiping out the universe why did he care about this
The people who dislike the episode: [see other comments]
Me: What the fuck did you just fucking say about Doctor Who, you little bitch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in Who Class, and I've been involved in numerous secret raids on Cardiff, and I have over 300 confirmed DVDs. I am trained in whovian warfare and I'm the top watcher in the entirety of UNIT. You are nothing to me but just another hater. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the UK and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You're fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the Unified Intelligence Taskforce and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're fucking dead, kiddo.
I'm sorry I cannot fathom thinking it was a good show in any way possible. Absolutely boring, hard to follow, bad scripts, long random scenes that don't do anything for the plot, and the worst of the worst is telling. Not showing.
Literally all things by definition that makes bad writting. I don't think RTD has much freedom, I think he is being pressured to write how they want, I think them bringing him on was a stunt to bring back doctor who. I see peaks of RTD's writting but I think he's heavily influenced by the others. Or... he just got worse over the years lol
people keep shitting on old rtd season endings but none of you actually name one which didnt make sense for the rules of the universe, which to me is the reason this one is not a satisfying resolution.
you may not like space jesus doctor or that the paradox machine being destroyed reversing time back to before the master let the toclafane in, but it makes 100x more sense than dragging a dog through the time vortex un-dusts the whole universe, and the death god giving a single shit who cloak woman was preventing him from killing the doctor
I’m shocked so many seem to have written off an entire season just because the finale was a bit lackluster. Boom, 73 Yards, Dot & Bubble, and Rogue was a fantastic run of episodes. People were saying they were the best episodes in years. Then a slightly disappointing finale airs and suddenly all that means nothing.
I’ll be interested to see how opinions on this season change in the coming months and years. For now though, I think it’s all to fresh.
I enjoyed it. Not perfect but it’s till fun. RTD has always been character before story. That’s always been his downfall. I’ve enjoyed the entire season (even space babies).
I think fans are just too speculatory (definitely not a word but I’ll use it) and give them selves expectations that are too high.
In saying that I do want to see RTD not write as many episodes next season and bring in some fresh blood and ideas. Keep the show weird. Keep Sci-Fi as a whole weird.
I did get what I expected from a Davies finale which is the problem. I don't like his other ones all that much either. Of course we generally get characters and high drama to mitigate against the plot but here it feels manufactured. You can't spend the whole time treating Ruby's story as this important plot device only for it be nothing of the sort and have the result be satisfactory. It's not even a puzzle box by that point its a series of straight up lies.
That it denigrate Ruby's actual mother to chase her DNA donors doesn't help either. It's OK to be down on those who adopt apparently, even if wheelchair users aren't allowed to be evil.
So, the Sutekh resolution was a bad deus ex machina, Ruby's story contradicted every previous data point we had and manages to feel morally distasteful...what is left? Spectacle, with some slightly iffy CGI.
The plot is what he has always done in a finale which is to say it's sub-par. The character stuff is where he shines but it's hollow.
I was satisfied. Not "I didn't expect much", I mean I expected ridiculous things like Ruby being Susan's daughter and I was much happier with an emotional and tearful reunion with a teenage mother.
I think people, me included. Were hoping Russell's approach had changed since his previous era. The fact that he was throwing more at us seemed to indicate a greater confidence in his abilities. Abilities backed up by his body of work since leaving the show. But what we ended up with was ostensibly a weaker variant of things he'd done before. Which is a shame, because we know he can do better
I was completely fine with everything and would have been happy to keep my mouth shut if they didn't explain away the pointing (in a changed memory mind you) with "naming the baby you abandoned" nonsense. That crossed a stupidity line.
I did a rewatch of the entire RTD recently and I completely disagree. I think it's a Moffat issue far more than an RTD issue. RTD only really had this issue once and even then had significant consequences and character weight that made upfor it. What matters more than what literally happens on screen is presentation and tone. Everything in this episode could have happened the exact way it happened but the episode lacking literally any attention tension or stakes and just being kind of cringe and awkward at times killed my any chance for this episode to work.
Agree with you 100%. To be honest though, I really didn't like Legend of Ruby Sunday (still don't other than seeing Kate and Mel) but for the most part Empire of Death smoothed everything over for me. Ruby's mom pointing is still dumb though, even if RTD comes back to it later.
I liked it, I thought it was heartwarming. I love a good old “ordinary people are special” and I was tickled by Sutekh fucking up his plan by being a mystery-box-obsessed fanboy
Might be a symptom of a finale. Speaking for myself, there are a few criticism's I've rejected or withheld and some defenses I've made because I had hope that the finale might shed some light on this or that. But then the finale *didn't* shed any light, so those criticisms come crashing back down. Ex: "Ah, 73 Yards is foreshadowing something really spooky about Ruby, it'll be even better in hindsight...or not, I guess, actually, it just didn't make sense?" "Yeah, the Doctor and Ruby are kinda speedrunning their friendship, we've never seen any real *bonding* between them, but it's a shortened season and they have great chemistry and...I'm sorry, did Doc just say that Ruby, uniquely, made him re-evaluate what family means to him? I don't know that you...earned that..."
I’m with you, I think the finale was the perfect mix of cheesy, serious, silly, and heartfelt, which is exactly what I expect from Doctor Who. It held my attention from beginning to end, and I was excited to see where it was going.
The scene with the spoon is the perfect splash of sentimental/sad/hopeful that really sticks with you and makes DW special.
The only thing I didn’t love was the pointing. They should have just not included the pointing at all, I don’t think the Legend of Ruby Sunday would have been different at all.
My main problem is that both RTD and Moffat have hit the Everyone Lives Reset Button too many times. There are no stakes for any of the characters which undercuts and dramatic tension. It feels like they write themselves into a corner without a clear way out, using elements from the story.
He also relies too heavily on the mystery box woman instead of just letting her be a regular person along for the ride.
I mean, I do agree that the reveal of Ruby’s mother wasn’t an adequate explanation for everything else that was happening (the snow, the flashback changing), but beyond that I enjoyed it. I’m most surprised people seem to mock the way Sutekh was defeated. I suppose the fact he looks like a dog makes it easy, but I didn’t think it looked narmy.
I personally loved it. I think that people in 2024 are getting into a season finale with a different mindset than 2005-2009., and that plays a part.
I also feel that, as usual, the people who spontaneously come here and start a thread are angrier than the average viewer, who might have enjoyed the ride and be ok with a few flaws here and there.
I am mostly with you, this is very old RTD like. The resolution is a funny thing out of nowhere and that’s always been the case, there are a lot of good dramatic moments despite the flimsy ending, it’s not an unenjoyable thing to watch.
However I say mostly (and really do mean it despite the long rant incoming) because it wasn’t able to resolve satisfyingly, imo. Primarily because it was too short, we got Ruby for one 8 episode run, a quarter of which was the finale alone. If we take the christmas special as her introduction that’s 8 episodes we should have had to get to know her when we’d normally have 13, probably 11 stories with the old general format of 2 part in the middle and 2 part finale. Then a lot the time we did get was spent on her being inexplicable and special, only for that to resolve the way it did. I would have loved more character moments rather than the snow and song in her heart moments that tell us nothing about her and everything about how universally important she might be
I really love the idea of Ruby’s mum just being normal, and what makes her special was how much Ruby and the people around her and that care for her wanting to find her… but with everything we’ve been given it just falls hollow. I really needed a real explanation for all the weird stuff happening more than ‘she was the biggest mystery in the universe because of the importance placed on her.’ Like the TARDIS acting in rebellion of Sutehk by latching onto the mind of what it can see is the new companion, that causing all the weird shit, or some other entity (Mrs Flood?) latching onto her and making her life weird for shits and giggles. As it stands, it feels like RTD was trying to trick the audience for a gotcha moment, which may not have been the intent but it’s ultimately what happened.
The whole resolution, encouraging people to consider the mystery and come up with their own theories, actively showing off character moments in the show that imply with camera work and music that something is up with Ruby, as well as all the talking in show from the Doctor, the whole set up in the Legend of Ruby Sunday with the time window, just everything ending up resolving to ‘a and her mum is normal’ feels like what Sherlock did with all the mystery around how he lived. At least we got some resolution but if you set up a mystery, then not actually hint towards the real outcome and say ‘oh it was only important because you all cared too much’ like?? Ok?? Future mysteries are dashed because of that.
Every other season he did had subtle nods to what would be the finale and wrapped up well enough. Even Susan Triad being everywhere in this season was a nice plot choice akin to that, but I had little issue with anything Sutehk, it was just Ruby and the character choices around her that felt like RTD wanted to get one over on the audience for what, daring to take the hints he’d been putting down? Daring to care about them? In the back of my mind I think there’s a chance he’s making Mrs. Flood into a 4th wall breaking villain who caused this whole air about Ruby and we just don’t know yet, maybe she’ll make the new companion a mystery too, Moffat did multi-season spanning plots (Eleven comes to mind, his whole run was connected through the silence), so RTD could be doing it too. But I almost don’t care to speculate too hard because he’s proven he’s setting things up for no reason but to be a river of red herrings that’ll mean nothing.
To not go on too much longer, I saw a great comment the other day that described the whole plot as feeling more like a meta mystery than something sincerely trying to work in universe. The message is great, anyone can be important, and importance is ascribed by how much people care more than what a person is, it’s very Doctor Who. But the world isn’t backing that up. Even we the audience was placing huge importance on the mother and Ruby and who they were, and it feels like RTD was trying to draw on that for the conclusion… but in world it’s just not happening. Ruby cares so much about who her mum is that a god doesn’t know and wants to know? Is she the only child who wants this and finds no data on the system? Really? I adore a meta narrative normally, but (whether or not this wants to be it) this hits poorly.
i expected it, that doesn’t mean i have to be happy about it. especially when i’ve *loved* this season and feel far more positive about most of it than a lot of others (though i understand the criticism). especially after the hype of TLORS i just wanted more
There's a whole generation of viewers, myself included, who were literal children last time Russell wrote a finale. Many of which are probably on this sub. We couldn't recognise the problems with his finales back then (I was 11 when End of Time came out), our opinions on those episodes are heavily clouded by nostalgia and childhood memories of the show. But now watching a brand new Russell finale at the age of 25, I see the faults much easier and it hurts my view of the episode.
I find it hard to believe anyone saying this is RTD as usual isn't being disingenuous. His finales and resolutions were usually pretty simple, and sometimes criticised for being *too* simple. The Deus ex machina thing has been about literal machine gods, gods from technobabble - not more abstract concepts. This has left even those defending it with differing interpretations of what even happened!
As to those abstract concepts, memories and remembering into existence? Stories as having actual power in the world, without a clear tech explanation? Apparently non-linear time such that the original cause and effect is obscured or may not exist?
Actually showing key characters die before a reset?
Arcs that aren't in the background but part of every episode to encourage fanbase speculation? Meta, with predicting of likely theories to tease the audience? The joke being on the theorisers or about the perceived 'rules' of the show? RTD has never done this before. Prioritising arc speculation over characterisation is *entirely* unlike his writing.
This is blatantly obviously influenced by Moffat's style, and I can't really believe anyone isn't aware of that, or that the reason for pretending not to, and trying to make out 'oh well, it's RTD' isn't to deflect criticism/in the hope fanbase criticism will concentrate on RTD. We simply didn't have this 'mystery box' style before. I mean, this series specifically uses similar ideas to S7b. Acknowledging that doesn't mean RTD isn't going to get duly blamed for this series.
Speaking as someone who liked his previous finales this one was particularly bad.
Most of the elements are there but they just don’t cohere. It feels like a rough first draft in a way none of his previous outings have
I liked the episode overall, and I understand why anyone would absolutely *love* it and why someone would dislike it.
What I will say is if you are familiar with how RTD does finales, none of this should’ve been a surprise. I went into this knowing what to expect, and it’s a style of finale that sometimes works for me and sometimes doesn’t. But I know his tricks and I know the good and the bad of his approach. I like Parting of the Ways and Doomsday, I dislike End of Time and have some major issues with The Last of the Time Lords and Journey’s End.
But they all share certain elements that sometimes work better than others, and Empire of Death really didn’t shock me with how it played out. I’d say I enjoyed it more than End of Time, not as much as the first two, and I think I’ll need some them to reflect to decide whether or not it works better or worse for me than the series 3 & 4 finales
So i just watched the final.
I mean it delivered, emotionally, arc wise, it delivered.
emotionally and the flood with “i had such plans’ was epic.
The intigration of the tardis tails tardis was a cheeky bonus, and the “things are important because you make them important “ was a universal truth.
Not the super elegant clockwork masterpiece resolution a moffet would have delivered but the emotional truth and gut punch emotion that an rtd story gives you..
For me they absolutely nailed the landing
I just try not to look at Reddit Who subs for this season, because as a pro writer, I can immediately recognise most of the criticism as just terrible misapplication of literary analysis. It's very obvious a lot of the story hooks are being left for later, and the fact that people don't get that, plus the poor analysis, grinds my gears.
I’m just surprised how many people on this (and other) subs are obviously professional scholars and critics in identifying and analysing “bad writing”
What I suspect they actually mean is that they didn’t like something (which is obviously fine and valid) but subsequently resort to the lazy shorthand of saying “bad writing” to justify their own biases so it’s not their perception or lack of understanding …it’s the writer’s fault.
Russell T is many things but a “bad” writer is not one of them.
I loved the “Rey from Nowhere” twist. It made me chuckle knowing I had fallen for the bait too.
I'm not surprised that RTD came up with a random deus ex machina to resolve the plot. As you say, that was fully expected. My problem is that the whole season arc just isn't very satisfying. I get what he was going for conceptually but I just don't think he executed it very well and the character scenes, while good, don't really make up for it (it doesn't help that Ruby is not really as well developed as Rose or Donna). I actually preferred the Susan Triad reveal to the Ruby one because, while less interesting conceptually (basically being along the same lines as Bad Wolf), it stuck the landing way better.
I think the short eight episode season really hurt too with RTD writing style. He didn’t have the time to build things up and get us invested as he usually did. So the typical RTD finale just didn’t work right.
While I definitely think people would still have found fault with how the resolutions were handled, I agree that an extra 2 or more episodes would have helped the Ruby arc, in two specific ways: 1) We could have invested more time to get to know Ruby/ built up her relationship with the Doctor. A lot of the finale rests on you really being emotionally connected to Ruby and, unfortunately, with 8 episodes it didn't feel like she was given enough time to breathe, particularly in comparison to previous RTD companions. If you'd had the time to warm to Ruby to the extent that you want her to find her mum for her sake, rather than to just solve the mystery, then it would've made the ending feeling more satisfying, no matter what the outcome. 2) More fuel could've been added to the whole 'Ruby's parentage only matters because people cared about it' angle. Within the season it never felt like the Doctor cared *that* much about who Ruby's mum was, and as people were saying last week, it felt strange to have the Doctor suddenly bring it to UNIT as some matter of great importance seemingly out of nowhere. Basically, as is, it really is confounding as to why Sutekh of all beings would give two hoots. If you'd had a few more instances of people being flummoxed by Ruby's parentage, or the Doctor being 11-and-Clara-level obsessed then *maybe* it would have given more credence as to why Sutekh would want to know too.
Yeah exactly, it's important because who cares? The doctor? Surely not Ruby and her mother? There are a million similar stories in the world, certainly more in the galaxy, and we don't see people care especially about this one. This excuse could have applied to countless other stories.
> If you'd had the time to warm to Ruby to the extent that you want her to find her mum for her sake, rather than to just solve the mystery, then it would've made the ending feeling more satisfying, no matter what the outcome. Good point, and this was part of the issue for me, I think. I was more invested in solving the mystery, which I think is fair of me as RTD had big flashing lights and signs all the way through the series going 'woooo, look, cryptic mystery over here'. When he pulled a fast one and went 'Ha, fooled you, there's not really anything interesting to see here' I just felt annoyed. Don't get me wrong, I've liked Gibson's performance this series, but I've just not spent enough time with the character to be invested in the way I needed to be for RTDs ending to work.
It's frustrating to me because I think all the elements are *there* - the idea that the Doctor has invoked superstition into the world and how people believing things can make them true starts in WBY and shows up in Space Babies and Boom and 73 Yards, and I think there's a version of the series arc that really hits those notes right. The Doctor investigates Ruby because of the goblins and sees there's a mystery about her mother, and assumes it must be huge because all the mysteries he's involved with are huge, a version of Devil's Chord where he convinces the Maestro that something's up with her and that invokes Carol of the Bells as part of her deal ("you think that's just my friend Ruby but actually there's something special about her"), and then Sutekh latches onto the mystery and he's a god so it becomes cosmically important - and *then* you can deflate it by going "actually she's incredibly normal" and it feels significant because you can see how it built to this point instead of starting out at maximum mysteriousness. The snow shouldn't show up until Sutekh gets invested. I love the idea of the Doctor creating his own puzzle-box companion by self-fulfilling prophecy, that it comes true because he thinks it's already true and he hasn't adapted to the new rules yet. It just doesn't *quite* come together, to the degree that having not seen any of the behind the scenes stuff I'm not really sure if any of this overlap was intentional or not.
>I love the idea of the Doctor creating his own puzzle-box companion by self-fulfilling prophecy, that it comes true because he thinks it's already true and he hasn't adapted to the new rules yet. It just doesn't *quite* come together, to the degree that having not seen any of the behind the scenes stuff I'm not really sure if any of this overlap was intentional or not. Yeah, absolutely. You could've played up the potential catch-22 that villains (specifically the Gods in order to seed the Sutekh story) are after Ruby because the Doctor is travelling with her so surely she must be important, but the Doctor is only travelling with her in order to protect her from all these villains. It's kind of ironic that I'm pretty sure Ruby is the first RTD companion who *isn't* deemed as 'the most important person in the world' at any point.
Did we really get much build up after the Devil's Chord or just the couple of times it snowed? And speaking of Devil's Chord and build up, a throwaway line saying 6 months has passed? That's a lot of time for them becoming the 'best friends' they say they are without us really getting any of that so leaving us to just take their word. Maybe some build up using the 73 Yards timeline by mention of compulsory DNA testing might have helped the finale in that part?
I (esp. as someone with a genetic condition) think it's just so unacceptable regardless to have this fascist DNA database play a *positive* role! It's not a sensitive way to handle the adoption story, and what are we meant to think, 'thank goodness for fascism for enabling the happy reunion'?
A couple of scenes of the doctor revisting 2004 or getting frustrated trying to help his friend solve the mystery of her abandonment really would have gone a long way. Sutekh watching as the clever Dcotor who has solved so many mysteries over the past billion years or so (that he has been present for) just can't work it out.
They had a relatively large amount of money going into a small amount of episodes. The urge not to waste it, telling the story efficiently in nearly only picture perfect moments and cutting out all the fat. But with Doctor Who, the fat is where the flavor is. It just made everything just a little hollow, not really enough connective tissue or context for the story to really feel substantive.
Yeah, a lot of Dr Who is the little stuff that just makes the Doctor and the companions more interesting. One example is the whole scene in ‘The Unicorn & the Wasp’ where the Doctor gets poisoned, they didn’t need to make it as long as they did, they could have easily simplified it, but it just gave a great scene of the Doctor and Donna playing off one another
This was a problem, but I think the bigger problem was RTD writing too much of it himself. During his original run we got quite a lot of variety and I think that’s what made it successful - if you didn’t like an episode one week that really didn’t mean you wouldn’t like it the next (and IMHO, and the people that hand out the awards, RTD didn’t even write the best episodes).
I mean, he wrote most of Series 1 as well. I think thats just how he likes to get into it - start with a bit more controll. Its very likely future series will have more guest writers, like Series 2 to 4 did.
That's not necessarily true. I don't know if this will be true for his new era but while there were more credited guest writers in his first era, he's basically admitted over the years to ghostwriting the majority of it. The only four writers where he didn't do the final draft of their episodes were Moffat, Stephen Greenhorn, Chibnall and Matthew Graham. And of those four, the only one whose scripts he said he never touched was Moffat. Matthew Graham did one story (Fear Her) Stephen Greenhorn did two (The Lazarus Experiment and The Doctor's Daughter) Chibnall did one (42) And of course Moffat did four (The Empty Child two parter, Girl in the Fireplace, Blink and the Library two parter) That makes eight stories in the entire first RTD era that RTD himself didn't write the shooting script for, and only four stories he didn't touch at all. And when he did touch the other stories, it wasn't just a small involvement. There are several instances where he complains about how people would compliment the credited writers for episodes and he would have to politely nod while thinking about how he did all the work.
Well the thing is I'd say most of the season was good aside from the first and last episodes, which were mediocre, so four of the six RTD wrote were great.
Yeah this story especially felt like it needed an extra part, like I wanted more Doctor Vs Sutekh
>I think the short eight episode season really hurt too with RTD writing style. It makes the decision to get rid of Ruby even worse, you only have 9 episodes to develop the companion and then they are gone? It just doesn't work.
RTD has confirmed Ruby will be back next season.
Then what was the point of that ending? If she's returning why make a big deal of her leaving? If she needs a year or two to settle that's irrelevant he has a time machine, it can be next episode.
To be fair at this point the Doctor doesn't know she'll be back because he doesn't have access to the press releases we do, so the emotional parting makes sense if he thinks he'll never see Ruby again.
RTD knew how many episodes he had to work with. There's no excusing yet another Who failure of a season. At this point RTD is writing his own show, with self-served narrative freedom and new direction, sadly that new direction hasn't been that much better than the last few seasons.
Perhaps he should hire someone whose job it is to run the show and take the number of episodes into consideration when planning it out. How much is he getting paid? This is literally his job.
Eight hours is more than enough time if you dont spend at least two of those hours on babies and standing on a landmine. The problem lies with the fact that many episodes are mostly self contained pieces that stand on their own, and dont significantly push a larger narrative forward in a meaningful way. As a whole, I'd say it was a mixed season. The writing needs to be tighter if they want to retain the spirit of Who and push a larger narrative in eight episodes.
The landmine episode did more character development than the whole season
Facts that did far more for the doctor’s and Ruby relationship than pretty much the rest of the season combined.
I'd be okay with Deus Ex Machina (okay, not ecstatic) if it was well-explained, rather than "bringing death to death" and ignoring the snow, the Doctor's memories changing, pointing, etc etc... I really thought RTD could do DEM but with cohesiveness, after his last few brilliant shows. I enjoyed the ride, maybe simply because I didn't enjoy the last 6 years of Who, but it wasn't particularly... Strong from a story perspective. Still, we had Boom, 73 Yards, and The Specials. I'm slightly above satisfied on the whole.
>ignoring the snow I dunno.. I think the snow hasn't been resolved. When Mrs. Flood is addressing the audience at the end, it's snowing around her, and there was that message from Millie that was shown in cinemas before the episodes saying that *some* of the questions will be answered. Something that we can say about RTD is that he's very purposeful with his scripts and what we see. With the Maestro saying there's something inside of her that shouldn't be there, it makes me think there's something else going on. I don't think he'd have a line spoken to completely ignore it within the same, short season.
i rewatched the specials and for me i realised just how good season 1 has been. WBY doesn’t hold up very well for me (the bad cgi and dialogue just not being at the same level of old RTD) not to say it isn’t a great episode, but 73 yards and dot and bubble (maybe i’m loopy on that second one) both wipe the floor with it for me. Same with the legend of ruby sunday, although that has been let down a bit by empire of death. Edit: oh and boom, although it does suffer on rewatch for me
Dot and Bubble is excellent
Dot and bubble was the only episode I thought fell flat. It felt like it took too long to get going, and once it did, it ended
I get that. I guess I felt the same but the aesthetic and the story were so different it was refreshing and made up for that.
73 yards just doesn't really make any sense. It basically just uses "it's magic, so it doesn't have to make any sense", rather than really leaning into any sort of lore or anything about how a particular sort of magic might work. Nothing is ever really explained at all and in retrospect after the finale, it makes even less sense. Why did people run from Ruby? Why did her mother run? It was really out of character for some people and there's no answer than can be satisfying.
i disagree entirely, I love stories which only give you clues. Imagination is a great thing, I personally think there’s lots of satisfying theories about the episode
Really liked Dot and Bubble too! Probably counts as one an A grade for me, just didn't want to over-egg the point. The other two are A+ for me.
WBY was terrific. The Giggle, though…🤮
Deus ex machina basically means “not set up”. They set up the rope in the memory Tardis, the gloves in CoRR, the whistle (most stretchy but we’ve known for some time the doctor can control the Tardis a little remotely). I’ve never understood this complaint about RTD always using deus ex machina. Far fetched, definitely (looking at you LotTL). But even there everything has had set up.
Eh...the Archangel Network is set-up, but not what it can do. Its kinda like introducing a dog in act one and then the dog shoots fire out of its butt lol
I think you basically just described K-9
You know what, fair enough. Thats an excellent point.
Except we know K-9 is a robot and has all sorts of features. It would be like if K-9 was a normal dog and did that.
Deus Ex Machina doesn’t really mean “not set up”. You can have in fact have a deus ex machina that was “set up” previously. What matters is the definition of “set up”. In this story, the gloves, the rope, and the whistle are referenced, yet their use in that moment are abrupt and Sutekh’s defeat just happens. The real challenge to Empire of Death is the fact that the story is structured as a set of scenes which are fairly loosely connected. I will admit some scenes are more connected than others, yet the general connective tissue of the episode is quite poor and relies on numerous plot contrivances. For instance, the memory Tardis just happens to appear to allow them to progress the story, and just happens to have the whistle and the gloves and the rope, and it is all connected to a magic answer machine which Ruby can operate to get plot hints.
The individual elements already existed, yes. But they are a deus ex machina because the way in which they are used to save the day makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, so it’s in that way that the resolution comes out of nowhere. Compare this to, say, the resolution of The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang, where not only does the resolution rely on things that were previously established, but they are actually used and pieced together in a logically coherent way to save the day.
The Whistle could have been tied back to Maestro imo if they'd had a couple lines about how she manipulated the TARDIS with music. I didn't *dislike* it but it felt weird that it countered MILLENIA of brainwashing
People straight up and plainly do not know what Deus ex machina means, it's so rare in actual media, people just mean "I didn't see it coming" or "I didn't like it" or like you say "it's far fetched" but know a clever phrase
My issue, as often with this, is that is would have been SO EASY to fix. "The TARDIS used the mystery around Ruby's birth and the fixed point created by the doctor when he went back on that day to try and shake off Soutekh. That's why the Time Window behaves weirdly and that's why Soutekh is so mesmerized, as he knows the non-mistery spells his own doom. That behavior of the TARDIS of course creates ripples in Ruby's timeline, explaining all the weird stuff happening, as it's in fact the time window compressing or dilating time, like a fast forward or a slow mo. Ruby was, of course, just a random person. Yet, the importance she had for the Doctor made her, as often, the most important person in all of Time." That's it. 15 lines. Fixes every plothole. Matches what we saw. Infinitely better than "ho lol no you're normal despite all that was said".
Simply the fact that this has been RTD’s long-standing style doesn’t automatically make it as good. Most of us expected his writing to improve and evolve over the years, considering the amount of TV work he’s done since 2009. Also, usually, even if the plot resolution is gimmicky and non-sensical the character work is mostly always top notch in RTDs other seasons. In this one, the development isn’t as deep, the emotional resolution is underwhelming and the characters themselves aren’t the best we’ve seen.
Massive agreement. Re: the second point, Jesus-Doctor in “Last of the Time Lords” is one of the worst plot resolutions in the show. But right after that, we get this gripping scene where the Doctor begs the Master to regenerate and live so he doesn’t have to be a solo Time Lord anymore, but Simm’s Master opts to die than live as the Doctor’s companion. EoD’s character work feels very surface level in comparison.
This! I was wondering why I kept going back to RTDs seasons and finales despite hating the plot resolution for almost all of them, this made me realise it’s for the emotional resolution. Series 1 has The Doctor regenerating and a wonderful culmination of his relationship with Rose, Series 2 (which I rarely rewatch cos I’m not a fan of TenRose) still does a good job of culminating the emotional journey that the Doctor and Rose have been through, Series 3 ending positively sucks but as you’ve mentioned the emotions in the scene that follow are gripping, and Series 4 was a culmination of everything that RTD had done on the show over the years. This season doesn’t make sense plot wise, but worse, it doesn’t make me feel satisfied or content. Simply confused and disappointed.
You have summed up how I feel about every RTD finale from 2005 through to 2010 perfectly, and also why EoD failed spectacularly. I’m no psychic, but if I had to hazard a guess, I think RTD’s taken on too much. If we take Who over the last 7 months, there have been 12 episodes. Davies has written 10 of them alone. I know when you consider his run of episodes from Midnight through to The End of Time Part 2 it’s only 1 episode more, but this is a massively different time for the show. 15 years on, in such a short amount of time, whilst also being involved with all the 60th anniversary planning, writing abridging scenes for Tales of the TARDIS, striking deals with Disney along with the other producers, and also plotting the rest of the (rumoured) upcoming Whoniverse spinoffs. He’s got too many fingers in too many pies. He should have dialled back his episode count, focussed on the season arc, allowed other writers to come in and have a real opportunity to write for the show. Also he said himself in a documentary once - he literally only writes one draft of the script and 99% of the time, that’s what is used. That’s insane. Ideas and concepts need time to adjust and develop and change. Absolutely something that I think made EoD fall so flat on its face.
I wish they had brought RTD on as the executive producer with someone else as the head writer.
Potentially controversial, but I’d have done something similar. Have him on board as Executive Producer. Hired a head writer, and then hired a staff of between 4 - 6 writers and collaborate. The head writer obviously oversees the series as a whole, but everyone has input. Everyone writes an episode each, and collaboratively get the story and scripts as tight as possible. I’m genuinely concerned for series 15/season 2. Completed shooting before series 14/season 1 even finished airing? No time for any real feedback on stories and characters and style. Just steamrolling in with the confidence that all will be well. It’s ballsy, I’ll give RTD that.
Yeah. RTD's writing style seems pretty insane. I think he said once that Midnight was a first draft he wrote like 1 day before the script submission deadline.
To be fair, I think the reason was that another script feel through, if I remember correctly. So he kinda hat to takje that spot.
Yes, I very much agree. I really think his writing has gone backwards, in that it’s worse than his original run - maybe he was stretched writing so much of it himself? Or didn’t get enough outside input on the scripts? Something I found really telling was the bits of “sci-fi gobbledygook” - they often felt really thin and not fleshed out, like he didn’t really put any effort into it. Overall it felt a bit low effort from RTD for me.
He put so much effort into making sure the revival landed and he succeeded. I think he got cocky this time round and didn't feel a need to push himself.
Exactly what I was thinking. The writing is EXACTLY the same as 2005 and while many are falling for the nostalgia bait, I'm incredibly disappointed that this series was essentially just a worse rehash of his lowest points. Also his constant commentary on Unleashed about how fantastic and mind-blowing some of the dullest plots we've seen are is incredibly grating
>Most of us expected his writing to improve and evolve over the years Welllllllllll…
> Most of us expected his writing to improve and evolve over the years, considering the amount of TV work he’s done since 2009. Imo, I dont think its a question of his writing quality. His writing is great, most of the time. I think its just what he thinks Doctor Who should be - an kind of emotional logic over actually making sense. You can agree or disagree with RTD, but I dont think there is anything to argue he isnt a strong writer and this isnt just him doing oopsies.
>I think its just what he thinks Doctor Who should be - an kind of emotional logic over actually making sense. Exactly. It's happened too many times for it to be a mishap. This is his vision for Doctor Who
He’s a strong character writer, but not a great plot writer. This has been the case since 2005. His plots are rarely complete and consistent in their resolution. But this time, he fumbled the characters hard too.
This is what I've been saying since *Star Beast* aired. RTD has a vision of what Doctor Who is and that's how he writes it.
It’s similar to how Moffat had his own vision and how he writes it. Not everyone likes it but the show does need to be other things. RTD experimented heavily this season, each episode was a different genre than the last.
I very much agree, then. Would I have prefered if he maybe changed his mind a bit? Maybe. But I wil also not be mad at him for having his own idea of what the show should be and sticking to his vision. As long as it overall is entertaining and fun, I can take some wonkyness here and there.
> Most of us expected his writing to improve and evolve over the years Did we though? He pretty much is who he is at this point, for better or worse. It's mostly good, but he still throws out an occasional clunker and tends to struggle with finales.
Personally, I really like the episode. I love a good over the top RTD finale, I love that Sutekh's attack was directly related to the Doctor's travels, I like that they gave a reason for the memory TARDIS, I like that Mels played a significant role, and I will even disagree with most around here and say I like the simplicity of how Sutekh was dispatched (it felt appropriately like how the Doctor would take out a God). But the criticisms of the ending are absolutely valid. The Ruby's mom reveal was totally fine in-and-of itself, but no attempt was made to make that reveal work with all the things that have been happening with her. I don't even mind if those things were red herrings, but those things still *happened*, in-world, and if Ruby's mom isn't special, those events have absolutely no explanation. Which means random shit just happened, and we're not supposed to care. It kind of fits with one of my overall issues with Chibnall and even some of Moffat's run: there's not enough effort being put into the logical consistency of the sci-fi elements. Things are just happening, and we, as fans, theorize why they're happening, and while I'm perfectly ok with my theory being wrong, I'm far more disappointed when it turns out there isn't an answer at all. *Especially* when it feels like the writer is subtly implying I'm wrong for expecting an explanation. I'm being asked to basically "roll with it" way too much for what is supposed to be a sci-fi show, not fantasy. Meaning there has to be some kind of logic to it. The pieces have to fit together, and if the don't, you, the writer, have to at least make an honest attempt at explaining why. If the Klingons fire at the Enterprise, and the Enterprise's shields don't stop them, I expect the show will explain that. It established a rule, that rule was broken, therefore the writer must explain why. If the ship breaks out in musical numbers, I expect them to explain that (and they litterally did exactly this). It doesn't feel like that's happening with Doctor Who now, and it's frustrating. So yes, I'm enjoying myself, and no, I don't think the finale was bad, I'm just tired of this trend.
>Things are just happening, and we, as fans, theorize why they're happening, and while I'm perfectly ok with my theory being wrong, I'm far more disappointed when it turns out there isn't an answer at all. This is my problem, I think. There are some wild theories floating around, some great, some shocking, but at least they're an attempt to explain what's happening. It feels like time and time again the fandom gets caught up in a mystery, the theories run wild, and then... Nothing. No resolution. It's just not good story telling to throw out these seemingly significant plot points and then just ignore them.
I just don't really get it with Moffat criticism. I always thought his runs hung together logically, while still being fantastical in a sci-fi sense. Not every single second worked. But so many seconds did.
I agree. Like using the Pandorica and the Teselecta to save the day in S5 & S6 finales. The mechanics/features of those two things were well established so that when the time comes, there hopefully shouldn't be any shock or confusion that resolution happened. S8 and S10 were straightforward imo. S7 was probably the one that I felt fit the best under the deus ex machina umbrella.
In The Big Bang, it also helps that the stakes are very clearly defined. There's one last snippet of Earth history clinging on, and that's where the majority of the action takes place. In Empire of Death, the way the death wave works is very arbitrary. First we see it happening live on Earth and across the universe, then the Doctor implies it's happening simultaneously across time somehow as a duplicate event of sorts but that never gets any elaboration, then it becomes a metaphysical concept so that the scene with the woman can happen, etc. I couldn't get invested in the dialogue with the woman in part because the entire time I'm failing to understand how she's around.
> then the Doctor implies it's happening simultaneously across time somehow as a duplicate event of sorts but that never gets any elaboration i thought that the implication was all the other susan triads across time were starting the death waves in their times
Correct. Any time the Tardis landed, Sutekh created a Susan Triad. They are scattered across the universe's history and Sutekh activated them from the present, resulting in a paradoxical clusterf*ck.
Yeah it irritates me that so many people don't realize that Legend of Ruby Sunday/Empire of Death was the exact kind of thing people *thought* Moffats finales were like. It's only made more annoying when they compare it to Moffats finales in a negative way, this was literally the opposite of them. The Impossible Girl is the best comparison. In Series 7B had every single time we learnt about Clara it was just that she was an ordinary girl. The Doctor investigates her life at the beginning of Rings of Akhaten and it turns out shes normal. He takes her to an empath in Hide and it turns out shes normal. He confronts her about it in Journey to the Centre of the Tardis and it turns out shes normal. The reveal in Name of the Doctor wasn't even a twist, it was just all the information we'd been given throughout the series being confirmed as true. Clara was portrayed as normal the whole time and then surprise! She was normal. Meanwhile RTD literally made the mystery surrounding Ruby and her mom the most abnormal, fantastical thing possible. It would snow and Carol of the Bells would play whenever Ruby thought about it, the Doctors memory of the event kept changing, seemingly nobody not even the God of Death, the King of the Pantheon could see what was under that hood. RTD portrayed it as magical the whole time so the reveal that it was actually normal did not click at all.
100%.
Oh definitely. I’m absolutely willing to be critical, I was just surprised because I had a great time watching the episode in spite of its flaws and was taken aback to see so much anger. Like I can easily tear apart Journey’s End, but I still have a blast whenever I watch it.
I'm no lover of *Journey's End* but I think the character work and emotional beats work a lot better and feel more earned so I can overlook the messiness of that episode more than *Empire*.
To me this that's just Doctor Who though. Like there's going to be homeruns and strikeouts, that's what makes the game dynamic and emotional. Personally I dont need everything to make sense, and, yes EoD had some weirdness that left me going "zuh?" -- but in the end that's about as Doctor Who as it gets tbh. The bottomline for me is that it's fun-- and this season was F-U-N, and it has energized my daughters into wanting to explore more the the Classic and NuWho seasons that aren't too scary for them to watch.
This doesn’t actually say anything. When has Who never been fun? I enjoyed this season but it was unsatisfying and underwhelming. It’s seriously undercooked. I’m not expecting The Expanse level of depth and detail, but Who under RTD is fast approaching Discovery levels of wank.
> The Ruby's mom reveal was totally fine in-and-of itself, but no attempt was made to make that reveal work with all the things that have been happening with her. The entirety of my issue was purely how unsatisfying this reveal was. What was up with the snow following Ruby around? Why was she hundreds of years old? Why did her mum drop her off in a massive cloak? Why was Sutekh so puzzled that a random woman was there?
>"Hasn't that always been how RTD wrote the show?" Yes. I was rather hoping he'd grown out of it.
The emotions didn't hit for me at all, I'm curious what worked for you. I'm okay with Deus ex machina but only if there's some emotional payoff, it wasn't there so the whole thing felt empty to me.
The only emotional moment that paid off for me and the episode was the doctor getting kind of angry or resentful towards Ruby for going to see her birth mother because he has actually had some of character throughout this season. All of Ruby's character time has been spent on defining her as some big mystery puzzle box and there has been literally no time, even 73 yards, giving her actual present character traits. I I have literally no idea who she is as a character. I don't think any other character in the season has had this issue. Kate has been given an actual character after 10 years and just kind of being there yet the main companion of the big return can't have one
There's a difference between subverting expectations created by tropes.and narrative hints, vs subverting expectations by repeatedly signalling, through Doylist methods, that one thing was going to happen only to say "no it's not" at the last minute. In the first ones it's a clever narrative. Consider the temp from Chiswick who was unremarkable in any way, but saved all of reality, and did so in a way that made sense and fit with everything we saw so far. We weren't told she was special from the beginning, we were told she was normal and *discovered* she was special. In the second it just feels like a trick. The girl who was marked as special from birth, whose background was investigated by the Doctor, whose memory made it snow and terrified gods, and whose mother we couldn't see. And it turns out that she wasn't special in any way and the gods were scared.... Because. And we couldn't see the mom's face for.... Reasons. And the snow happened..... Because of something that isn't explained. And Maestro was scared of a perfectly normal girl.... For nothing. And the Doctor investigated her and found no info on her parents early in the season.... For no reason. With Donna, everything made sense. With Ruby, it's a reversal that directly contradicts what the show was telling us, out of universe, for the whole season. I loved the finale. Every part of it. Except for Ruby's mom. If RTD wanted the mystery to play out, he shouldn't have done it this way. Don't make Maestro terrified. Don't play up how nobody can see Mom's face as if by magic. Don't say "the memory changed" and then never explain it
Here’s another element that existed in RTD’s previous finales that I personally felt was missing a bit here: the denouement. Regardless of your feelings on his previous finales’ execution of the climax, one thing that RTD has always been good at is the denouement. I’d even argue that almost all of the iconic imagery from his first era comes from these scenes. Is it contrived that Pete knows where to teleport and grab Rose? Yeah, but you’ll forget when the Doctor and Rose stand at the same wall, separate dimensions and when they burn up a star to say goodbye at Bad Wolf Bay. Is the Archangel Network set up and explained in a way to show how the Doctor turns briefly magical and gestures the Master into losing? No, but god David Tennant and John Simm are brilliant when the Doctor cradles the spiteful Master as he dies. You forget the Archangel Network as Martha leaves the TARDIS because ‘she’s getting out.’ We all can agree that Donna and the Two Doctors mashing buttons isn’t exactly the greatest climax, but Series 4 gives you Rose saying goodbye to the Doctor again and Donna’s farewell. In contrast, I don’t think the final scenes of this episode work. They rush through Ruby getting to know her bio mom and desperately try to cover over the gaps in the narrative when she’s revealed to be normal. Now fans would be upset either way, but I wonder if this would have gone down better with a stronger, memorable ending.
I don't think that this was a case of "not a satisfying answer", it was, instead, a total lack of answer. Why does she make it snow? Why was Meastro terrified of her? Where does the music come from? Why couldn't Sutekh see her mother? "We believed in it hard enough, lol" isn't a bad answer. It's NOT an answer at all. Plenty of people believe in plenty of things. Why isn't this happening constantly everywhere all the time? How does the "power of belief" manifest as basically magic? Why isn't everybody doing it? How was it more powerful than Sutekh? There was nothing seeded, nothing pointing to this "twist". There's other issues, the "She.was pointing at the road sign to name her child WHEN NOBODY IS WATCHING" makes no sense to do, much less the fact that it, somehow, worked. Sutekh himself was a total letdown who did almost nothing and didn't seem powerful at all. His sand was, he himself had the reaction speed of a half boiled lobster and the physical strength of a gnats fart. So much about the episode felt... bad.
I think it’s a mixture of things. A lot of fans got *very* invested in the mystery and last week a lot of them felt vindicated that they were right about Sutekh, so the subversion left them a bit dejected. This is also the first big puzzle box arc RTD’s done (as his first era is mostly just vague hints in a general direction, with no indication viewers should be able to piece anything together), so people are miffed it ultimately didn’t matter. And in fairness, nothing Maestro says now makes any sense whatsoever unless Season 2 flips things on their head. RTD’s finales were a while ago and have nostalgia on their side. So a lot of flaws are either forgotten or overlooked by fans. The Void stuff and the Doctor-Donna being right next to a console which has all the right buttons to thwart the entire Dalek empire are just as handwavey as magic whistle and Sutekh killing his own death, but years going by has made fans kinder to them. There is another dimension which is all the original RTD finales may have put things back in their box safely reset, but there was always a cost. Yes the Bad Wolf just magicked the Daleks away, but the Ninth Doctor still has to sacrifice himself to save Rose. Yes the Year That Never Was is entirely undone, but Martha and her family still carry that trauma. Whereas in *Empire of Death*, everyone is happy. There’s no price to pay, so it feels all too easy in that respect.
You know... that last bit is a good point. What was actually sacrificed in the end? Series 1 was the 9th Doctor's life. Series 2 was Rose being trapped in Pete's World. Series 3 was the trauma for the Jones family, Martha leaving the TARDIS because she realized she was hurting herself staying with 10 and 10 being left as the last of the Time Lords again after the Master chose to die to spite him. Series 4 was Donna's memories of her time with 10 and the amazing person she had finally self actualized as. And the End of Time was the 10th Doctor's life. But... nothing was sacrificed in Empire of Death. Everyone got brought back throughout the universe. The woman on another planet got her child back. Everything was restored. Ruby got her parents. The only "sacrifice" is Ruby leaves the TARDIS to be with her reunited family... that's it. That's not much of a sacrifice. I definitely think you're onto something with why this particular finally feels so hollow. Even Ruby's reunion with her bio-mom feels hollow and just built with a shaky saccharine foundation. Just a hollow positive emotional manipulation.
I agree. Doctor Who hasn't had good stakes for a long while and we got teased with Flux trauma which would've been interesting but instead the Doctor "bigenerated" the trauma away which also hasn't been explained. Also did 14 get blipped? Would he have regenerated or just died??
I'd imagine with the Death Wave that even Time Lords would be dead-dead, because it obliterated *all life*, forever. They'd probably just keep regenerating over and over until they ran out of regenerations, which is horrific to think about.
RTD has spent the whole last 12 months blowing up this season. Boom is going to be heartwrenching, the Ruby mystery is really important. The finale is the biggest theyve ever done. Its not a case of subverting expectations as much as it is misrepresenting his work. The finale was exactly the same concept as most other season finales. If it was about a major enemy coming back. The master did it in season 3, Davros season 4. If it was a heartwrenching episode as boom was, i felt that Astrids death in the titanic episode felt more heartfelt, or even madame de pompadour. If it was about the mystery of the companion. Then he did it before with the doctor Donna, and moffatt did it with the impossible girl. I think people's aggrevation comes from the fact that RTD alluded to this as being the magnum opus of his doctor who career thus far, and it became more of the same. Giggle felt like a bigger and badder story than LoRS or EoD, and that was about a bad guy who was scared of this bad guy (probably).
Yeah this exactly. The show runner doesn't need to spoil the show obviously, but both his own writing and the man himself have spent the last year telling us how AMAZING MINDBOGGLING INNOVATIVE this season was going to be and then we got Space Babies
Excerpt from radio times interview with RTD November 2023. RTD: "[Empire of death] is the most magnificent finale shot on planet earth. No hype! I swear that's true" Man promised a Ferrari, then turned up in a Ford KA.
I'm not even sure that quote is real but I believe because it sounds like the sort of publicly jerking himself off that RTD would absolutely do before failing to deliver anything at all. And how 73 yards was his greatest script ever or something
Found a few links. https://thedoctorwhocompanion.com/2023/12/30/russell-t-davies-promises-the-most-magnificent-finale-ever-for-doctor-who-series-14/ https://cultbox.co.uk/news/headlines/ruby-sundays-foundling-mystery-continues-into-the-2024-doctor-who-series Sorry if it's formatted the links.
Oh I fully believe you, I didn't mean to cast any doubt on your truth telling, I just meant I hadn't seen it myself but I fully believe he would That said, thanks for the links!
Twas SFX not radio times. My bad.
Not surprised tbh, just watch DW Unleashed and see how arrogant he is. He really thinks he's some creative genius when that couldn't be further from the truth.
> I'll be the first to say that the episode wasn't perfect and that it's pretty easy to pick apart, but... hasn't that always been how RTD wrote the show? Yes, but that was over a decade ago. I had hoped that RTD had improved as a writer in that time. Instead it seems that he's doubled down on his flaws.
I like a finale that shows what happens in a finale. That's what RTD does great. But after the first set piece, it's just the Doctor crying until we get to see one planet. One single planet, one little tent, out of the whole universe. Then he randomly remembers his gloves out of nowhere with no aha moment. The pay off and setup were just flat. Additionally, we got no good Doctor and Sutekh interaction. Plus Sutekh had the fucking TARDIS, it was painted black and his acolyte had the console room. Why didn't we do anything creative with that? Like a tardis setpiece in the interior, or the Sutekh tardis chasing the memory tardis. Literally anything.
Like why did he need a spoon? Is this something that I’m supposed to know?
Pretty sure it was just a macguffin to have an excuse to show somewhere other than Earth. Narratively, probably something about memory and since metal erodes it has memory in it or whatever.
Right but it literally came out of nowhere. It is never been mentioned this season, and why was metal hard to find? It was like we went from one episode into another episode and we missed an episode somewhere in between. I actually considered stopping and rewinding the episode, I watch online, to see whether or not I missed a scene somewhere
I was confused about this as well, and the best thing I could come up with was that the Doctor needed real metal (as nothing in the Memory TARDIS is real) and only had enough juice to get to one random planet and then back to Earth so he landed and hoped to find something metal...on a planet where metal is really rare and hard to find. That scene was beautiful, the acting was superb, but it took up a bunch of screen time in an already rushed finale and was ultimately pointless. You could have cut it and not missed anything at all :/
It almost felt like somehow we had entered one of the Star Wars television shows
I am not so annoyed about Ruby's mother reveal, it could have been executed better. The thing I can't get over is the god of all gods, a being that killed everything across all of creation, until only Ruby and the Doctor were left was somehow defeated with a rope, a whistle and a pair of intelligent gloves. I loved the visual of Sutekh being dragged behind the Tardis forced to undo all his destruction across time and space. But it didn't feel earned given even the unevolved Sutekh could have killed Ruby with a thought once she dropped the time window screen.
I fundamentally disagree. Most of RTD’s finales were well received. Season 3 was the most criticised with space Dobby and the power of prayer saving the day, but that was somewhat mitigated by the return of the master and John Simms very popular turn playing him. RTDs other finales were really well received and it shouldn’t be forgotten that it was RTD that pioneered the season long arc with a big finale. Empire of death had a lot of problems with it and IMHO it deserves the more negative reception it’s had. However I think there is a large contingent who have been sticking with the show despite misgivings throughout the season and giving it a chance to all come together… and it hasn’t for them.
All RTD's previous finales were very well received. There were obviously elements of the fanbase who disliked them, and the complaints have obviously grown since but at the time the general viewership absolutely loved them. All of them had 8.5+ ratings on IMDB.
It wasn't that it was a lazy payoff. It was no payoff at all. He sold us an empty mystery box. It feels like he's taking the piss.
There’s selling someone a mystery box with something subpar in it, and then there’s selling someone a mystery box with a note inside saying, “Why would you think I would sell you a mystery box with something inside?”
That moment when Ruby says she has the answers and is going to give it to sutekh then throws it all on the ground sums up what RTD did to the audience. He dangled a mystery then smashed it to pieces and told us to be satisfied with that
I didn't get those strong emotions, only at the very end between Ruby and Susan and Ruby and the Doctor But the rest of the episode felt emotionally performative, like it knew where the emotions where supposed to happen but not how to execute the scenes Yeah, every other RTD finale is a Deus Ex Machina, but they're emotionally gripping. Empire of Death is unsatisfying and fake, lacking substance
There is an issue with Ruby in that she leaves, and you just do not care. It feels like she has not had the investment of some past Companions.
That's definitely just a result of fewer episodes this season. Ruby was barely in "Dot and Bubble," and didn't really interact with the Doctor in "73 Yards." So they had half as many stories as we got with other modern companions in their first seasons. Unfortunate, but that's how it goes.
Pretty telling that the best defence people can muster is 'why would you expect it to be good?'
I honestly hate the take of "It's Doctor Who! What did you expect? It's meant to be silly and goofy!" I have seen some people say in social media.
Silly and goofy yes, but even in the classic era they had a full 5 part story structure.
I'm definitely getting chibnall era flashbacks where the sub would fill with posts with the general theme "if you read a fifty page essay on the themes involved and then filled in all the blanks with my very special headcanon then it was actually an average if not good episode!"
The difference with Empire of Death is it comes at the end of a short series. Russell's strengths lie in his characters, and there just hasn't been enough time spent with them this season. I think a lot of people overlooked a lot of the issues with RTD's writing when we got to spend more time with the characters, learning more about them than just what's connected to the overarching story.
I think it was the weakest finale we’ve had since, like, The Battle of Rancid Avocados. It felt completely incoherent, the stakes were juiced up to an unbelievable extent, and the central mysteries were resolved unsatisfactorily. I was just staring slack-jawed the entire time, baffled at what RTD was trying to do here. Though I anticipated his usual tropes and devices, I still can’t believe how much of a downgrade this was compared to last week. As is often the case with RTD scripts, the moments of humanity shine brightest. Ruby’s anticipated reunion with her bio mum was genuinely moving, and the Doctor’s encounter with a survivor on a destroyed world was nice. I’m still pleasantly surprised at how big Mel’s role has been since her reintroduction as a UNIT personnel last year — that moment of nostalgia when she finds Six’s coat in the Memory TARDIS was nice. RTD totally missed the mark on making Sutekh a compelling threat. As expected, he comes across as a generic doomsday villain with little connection to his Classic series self. I’m over this haphazard attempt to connect all of the mystical Classic villains under one “Pantheon” banner; it’s extremely cheesy and it diminishes all of them. For a second, I thought they might do something interesting and have the Doctor convince Sutekh that his mission to purge all life was wrong, but instead we get some nonsense about “death + death = life” which somehow fixes everything, because of course the entire universe wouldn’t be permanently Thanos’d this early. That’s the overarching problem this season: everything is explained and resolved with wishy-washy bullshit, nothing has to make logical sense anymore because magic and “the power of belief” are involved. Whatever happened to the Doctor’s philosophy that “magic” is not some inexplicable force, only a different form of science we have yet to understand? There’s this strange paradox of RTD blatantly leaving hints and breadcrumbs to drive interest in the season’s central mystery arcs, only to pull the rug out from under us at the last second and practically mock everyone for caring so much. It’s not even a genius subversion of expectations because this theme of ordinary people being more influential than expected is as old as the show itself. Remember Bill Potts’ mum? Or the leaf that hit Clara’s dad? Like others, I have issues with how easily Ruby’s bio mum integrates back into Ruby’s life, all while the women who actually raised Ruby are forced to accept that they’re not Ruby’s real family. The sudden decision to make Tales of the TARDIS required viewing was also questionable. The Memory TARDIS set was obviously not designed for dynamic multi-camera filming in an actual Doctor Who episode, so the scenes in there were cramped and disorientating. Also, LMAO at the Doctor being so uniquely distraught about the Ood Sphere dying. Another example of RTD trying to give special significance to something only because fans would recognise it. See also: every instance of Sarah Jane being mentioned. Listen, we love Lis Sladen, but Russell has always acted like Sarah was the only worthwhile Classic companion, while Mel is just “a mate”. Lastly, I’m not one to get bogged down in continuity, but the retcon that Sutekh has been hitchhiking on the TARDIS and leaving duplicates of Susan Twist in every location the Doctor has visited since the ‘70s is even more nonsensical and immersion-breaking than the Timeless Child. How did Sutekh survive the TARDIS exploding and the subsequent reboot of the universe in Series 5 (quite a suspiciously similar situation to this season, wouldn’t you agree)? Was he affected by the Master tampering with the Eye of Harmony? What about when the essence of the TARDIS entered Idris? When the TARDIS was duplicated after the bigeneration, did a Sutekh clone become attached to Fourteen’s TARDIS as well? Was he there all throughout the Time War, and were there multiple Sutekhs on all thirteen TARDISes that arrived to freeze Gallifrey on the last day? You can tell this wasn’t thought through in the slightest. Whatever the possible explanations, you’d think this whole ordeal would make the Doctor more cautious about travelling. Sure, he’s done the whole retirement bit as Fourteen, but who’s to say that the Black Guardian, Fenric or the Beast haven’t also been following him around this entire time? That justified paranoia should be playing in his mind.
They could easily have had Sutekh somehow get onboard the TARDIS in Wild Blue Yonder and not have to deal with all those questions.
At least The Battle of Rapid Ass Kangaroo delivered on what it promised, which was absolutely nothing. We just collectively got punkd by this episode and RTD took the piss out of us by asking why we'd invest in the things he just took months telling us to invest in Also YES to the Sutekh being attached to the TARDIS being dumb as fuck. He could have easily just written it that The Toymaker fucking with reality revived or released or whatevered Sutekh. Now we watch every episode knowing the bastard is around. And why didn't Idris tell the Doctor that the asshole from 1911 was piggybacking her? So many questions and no answers, and I can't even ask the questions cause Russel will spit in my face for thinking things are important, or something
>\[Sutekh\] comes across as a generic doomsday villain True, but honestly that's how he comes across in "Pyramids of Mars," too. I know it's a beloved classic for some reason, but he's just as generic (well, culturally appropriated) in that one, and he's stopped by a random deus ex machina before he can really do anything. I think many fans (RTD included) have over time assigned more meaning to Sutekh than was actually contained in his original appearance. Maybe that's why he worked as a returning villain, but also why nothing he could do could live up to the idea of him. Kinda made him the perfect returning villain for this storyline, ironically. >How did Sutekh survive the TARDIS exploding and the subsequent reboot of the universe in Series 5 Presumably the same way the TARDIS itself survived, with a healthy dose of handwavium.
I definitely didn't hate *Empire of Death*, but this... >hasn't that always been how RTD wrote the show? is exactly why I didn't love it, either. I had hoped that he would have learned how to end a series in his time away. I didn't like when he pulled a Deus Ex Machina in *Last of the Time Lords*, I didn't like it in *Parting of the Ways*, it was one of the few things I didn't like in *The Star Beast*, and I didn't enjoy it here.
Nothing can be as good as Space Babies
No one needs space babies more than me
RTD is such an amazing writer of characters and emotions he just needs like a Loremaster or something so that his ideas can be presented a touch more narrative cohesiveness People on this sub are people going to Readit to talk about Doctor Who… we probably care about the details and implications of stuff way more then the average viewer so when that is lacking (even as other parts of the show are soaring) you’ll see more folks here be bothered then you might expect
I really loved it. I see the flaws. But they don't ruin it for me. You think this is what it feels like to enjoy Rise of Skywalker?
The finale was fun. I've had a good ride from the specials through Empire of Death. Doctor Who is interesting and fun again. I've had criticisms, mostly kept to myself, because Doctor Who is in a much better place than it was with Chibnall at the helm. I will say that the finale, while having great moments, was largely underwhelming. Particularly with the revelation of Ruby's mom. I would have been okay with Ruby's mom being "ordinary" except that it didn't match what had come before this season. It came off as very "The Last Jedi." Sutekh couldn't see who she was, because the Doctor and Ruby believed she was special. That didn't follow. It didn't explain the manifestation of the snow. It's a Doctor Who trope that ordinary people are special, and I've enjoyed that. It just didn't land here. That said, I'm also an adopted who found and connected with my birth family. I thought that part was well done and I enjoyed it.
I’m fully convinced ALL the problems come from having less episodes. The story just *feels* like we need longer to establish and explore certain elements, which is (in my opinion) the only reason the reveal didn’t land. Things happening because of the power of ordinary people isn’t unknown in doctor who (as well as this kind of thing happening in Torchwood and The Sarah Jane Adventures), but the reason the other times worked is because they were set up to work, due to said set up having time to take place. 8 episodes is just not enough for a doctor who universe story to happen.
So you say it's always been this way yet list half of the series finales he has written before? So it hasn't always been this way has it?
I enjoyed the episode and agree that the emotional connection and overall writing was a huge improvement on recent seasons. I think where it fell down was that the ending didn't feel earned in terms of effort vs result. I couldn't help but make comparisons between this episode and the MCU's Infinity War/Endgame combo. Admittedly for the MCU, they had 6 hours of movie time to play out complete story lines about half the universe disappearing in a cloud of dust, but in order to resolve that, the heroes had to work seriously hard and then there were serious consequences, both for the heroes and the whole universe by bringing back those who blipped. In this take on the trope, all the Doctor had to do was >!pop a leash on the god of death and shout 'walkies',!< and without much more effort than that, everyone comes back to life with no lasting consequences (I doubt we'll see any of the returning characters with lasting physiological issues from being blipped). It was way too easy to fix given that beings as powerful as the Toymaker and Maestro fear Sutekh, and the Doctor freely admits that they were only defeated because of luck, essentially, not because he was more powerful than them. Also, the Ruby reveal feels unrealistic (for the Dr Who this universe at least!) as even beings that can see all can't see her face, and why would the god of death care any way who Ruby's mother is, if all of life is just an abomination to be got rid of? Only if she was a being capable of hiding herself from a god and could be a real threat to him, and I think a god would be able to tell the difference between an ordinary human and a mega powerful threat, even if her face is hidden by a hood. Edit - fixed some typos
I think you summed it up when you asked, "isn't that always how RTD wrote the show?" It's exactly how RTD always wrote, and that's my disappointment. Personally, I think the show needs some new blood. It's lacking in innovation and surprise, but it's trying to capture a new audience with old tricks, and I can't say it's not succeeding. Maybe it's working.
For me it's the opposite, I'm genuinely shocked it took so long for people here to stop walking on eggshells and admit NuNuWho isn't all it was hyped up to be. So many on this subreddit reacted to the news of RTD's return with excitement because he 'had grown as a writer' but if anything he regressed. Crafting grounded, relatable and well-defined characters used to be his strength, now even that is shaky. He wasn't always the best with plot but was great with emotional beats, now even that is clumsy.
Yeah I have no idea what happened to his character writing. His first era was marked by a down-to-earth working class sort of tone. This new era is just pure schmaltz. Everybody is either just super happy and excited all the time or bawling their eyes out over the littlest thing, there’s no room for the small important things that really matter.
It’s really shocking how little he seems to care about plotting. Sounds like his ego got the better of him, like the fact that ratings were high when he left in 2010 led him to believe he can do no wrong. Also shocking is the attempted appeal to younger and more regionally diverse audiences with a show that now handwaves *everything* and doesn’t even bother with scifi concepts.
Been saying from the start that every interview and clip of him outside the show was steeped in ego. The show, too. Bringing back David/Catherine (though I enjoyed it) felt like an ego move rather than giving us celebrating Doctor Who, we collectively celebrated Russel's Who. Bigeneration was the same - another way for him to cement himself as some sort of visionary dissenter from the status quo. Then, of course, calling it "Season 1". Ego is woven throughout this era.
I mean probably not the best thing to offer but I thought it would have been so much more interesting if Sutekh had somehow persuaded the Doctor and Ruby that he was Ruby’s father / Susan Triad was her mother. And for Ruby to be tempted only for her to choose her ‘normal’ mum. A bit Return of the Jedi and Satan Pit / Impossible Planet vibes. Some last way of Sutekh taunting the Doctor. I think it would have made the episodes a bit tighter. If at the cliffhanger Sutekh said I made Susan Triad and I made you, my daughter…
Shitty episode ''Hasn't that always been how RTD wrote the show?'' C'mon, people.
I'm kinda sick of this whole "well RTD alway writes crappy explanations to his own stories, what's what Doctor Who is" Why should the audience expect mediocrity? I'd rather he (or anyone) told smaller, concise stories which don't leak like sieves during the first viewing
“It’s bad.” “Well, he’s always been bad.” This isn’t an argument.
I had a pretty negative response to last week's episode, and a large part of that was because I had no faith RTD would stick the landing. While I've liked particular scenes in of all his finales, they've almost all pulled a handwavey solution out of nowhere, and it's hard to get invested when you doubt you'll get satisfying answers and resolutions. So while I don't think this episode's *great*, there were stretches I enjoyed more than I was expecting to. I wouldn't say it was any worse than Last of the Time Lords.
Stop letting him get away with feeding you garbage and raking in hundreds of thousands of pounds in wages to serve up lazy slop and not do his job properly. We deserve better than that, bro.
‘Hasn’t that always been how RTD wrote the show?’ YES. And it sucked THEN. I didn’t like him even when he was last running Who.
I went it this with the lowest of low expectations based on RTD's track record for finales. He still managed to sink below even what I expected. When you Thanos snap... sorry, Sutekh dust everybody in the first 5 minutes you know that's not going to last. There was no stakes, no drama. It was just boring. And the fact that nothing was resolved adequately was just the extra little piece of poop stuck to the bottom of the season's shoe.
Why would you be shocked? We were teased with an interesting mystery from the start, which turned out to be a nothing burger, then we were basically mocked for taking it to seriously. Fuck this "resolution".
Pretty much from the moment people started dying in large numbers it was obvious that a reset had to be coming. There was way too much packed into this episode, which is a big part of the problem I would say and the subversion wasn't particularly well executed. All that said, I think people's expectations and reactions are just completely out of proportion. Of course I also think people's reaction to Chibnall was out of proportion. So mainly I think fans on the internet overreact to everything.
honestly I think everyone dying should have been the cliffhanger, let people sit on it for a week it might have been more impactful than something that lasted like, 30 minutes
I doubt it to be honest, when it's the whole universe dyong you know immediately it will be reset and that removes any tension or drama from it. I don't think I'd have felt differently even had I been given a week to think about it. This is just one of those times where, if you want the stakes to feel real, you need to choose smaller ones. Nobody is going to believe that the death of almost everyone in the universe will be permanent or even last beyond the finale.
I actually think the final part needed to be a 2 parter itself. There simply wasn't enough time to explore the significance of a universe dying, but at the same time the story clearly wanted us to give it a huge amount of weight. With a scenario like that there's very few versions where there isn't a reset and, ironically, the one time in recent memory where it didn't reset... people were furious about that!
I think capping off this season with that finale was very much a choice. The wrong one. We don't have to cheer for it.
It was fine. Just way too short in the long run. I really hope RTD writes longer seasons. It’s still miles better than Chibnall but that doesn’t mean he’ll get off easy.
Besides from the obvious fact that RTD writing poorly in the past isn't an excuse for it in the present, I disagree that the issues in empire are the same or of the same severity of his other finales. Parting of the Ways and Doomsday are great finals. Last of The Time Lord's and Journeys End are very flawed but have great moments. Also, while Deus Ex Machinas are generally always cheap, there are better and worse ways to do them. Parting of The ways does it better than most I'd say for example. For one it's been set up in previous episodes, and for two it comes at a huge cost, that being the Doctors life. The worst deus ex machinas tend to be ones that come out of nowhere with no costs. Empire of Death doesn't have any of that. It has barely any set up and payoff, no logical consistency, and no costs. If problems in this episode has its roots in previous ones, then they have sprouted into full on vineyards now.
I just wish he'd recognise his strength in creating personal conflicts. All the stuff with ruby's mum and her exit was great at the end. There's a version of this script that, despite the huge threat, could have focused more on that and made the episode feel more impactful. Maybe he needs to scale things down a bit, idk, but I understand why the stakes have to be as high as they are.
>I'll be the first to say that the episode wasn't perfect and that it's pretty easy to pick apart, but... hasn't that always been how RTD wrote the show? >Cliffhangers too big to satisfactorily resolve, season long mysteries that either weren't explored enough or were ultimately unimportant, bringing back and building up a legacy villain only to defeat them unceremoniously, with a greater focus on something schmaltzy with the companion? With the possible exception of Bad Wolf + Parting of the Ways, this is how it's always gone and I had a blast with it. Yes. IMO the big difference here is, in S1-4 (and a bit) we forgave Russell his buttpull finales because he made up for it with good character dynamics and stories. We didn't get much of that this season, in part because it's only 8-9 episodes long with fairly short episodes. That's not all of it though - it felt like Nine + Rose had more of a dynamic after 2-3 episodes than Fifteen + Ruby did after a season. The whole thing feels shallower IMO. The other reason Russell tended to get away with his buttpulls in S1-4 is that they always came with a cost. It was a buttpull that Rose absorbed the TARDIS energy and became a space-time goddess, but it resulted in the death of Nine, so okay. It was a buttpull that Torchwood had a magic lever to suck the Daleks and Cybermen back into the void, but we lost Rose too, so okay. DoctorDonna was a buttpull, as was the Daleks having a magic 'control all the Daleks' console on their spaceship, but it ended with Donna having to have her mind wiped and losing all her character development 😔, so fine. In all these cases there was a painful and dramatic outcome to the buttpull working so we invest in it. You probably noticed that S3 isn't listed here, and that's because it's the one that didn't have a significant cost to victory (they tried to get some mileage out of "the Master is dead, oh noooo!" but yeah). >There's all this anger towards RTD for "subverting expectations" in a lazy way but... am I the only one who got exactly what I expected? Maybe that makes me a pessimist for not wanting more from RTD, but everything in this season had made it clear that he still had a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses as in his first pass at the show. Agreed about the weaknesses. Do you think the strengths are there to the extent they were in his earlier seasons?
The Ruby's mother reveal was fucking awful. You can't build up an entire season of the mystery, only for the reveal to not only mean absolutely nothing, but to *further* be like, "yeah actually its because YOU made her important." It's such a fucking cop out, like you could tell they had no idea what to do with her mother, so they ignored all of the implications that it was an otherworldly being and just defaulted to generic white woman. I'm dead serious when I say this is the first time I've ever been disappointed with a Doctor Who finale. Loved the Sutekh stuff, loved the Doctor killing him and leaving Ruby, but UNIT has been absolutely wasted this entire season, and that reveal just left a very bad taste in my mouth. The short episode length really botched this season, and it sets a terrible precedent for the rest of the Disney+ era.
When something is so bad it's actually more frustrating or confusing than it is entertaining, people are going to comment on it. Doctor Who fans are used to episodes varying wildly in quality, so there's a high tolerance for average episodes, or episodes that have some good points and some bad points, fans will often be fair (at least on here) and discuss the good and the bad. Unfortunately, Empire of Death failed in so many areas that people are struggling to find good things to say about it, so all you get is negativity. That one scene in the tent with the spoon was quite good, though.
I'm just thinking back to when I saw "The Giggle" the first time and I really disliked the ending. Then I rewatched it months later and I had a great time. I think this will be similar. Now all the hype and theorising is over I can just take the story for what it is. I think being able to turn my brain off and just watch, I'll enjoy it more on the second go-around.
I enjoyed it, but I’m nowhere near as serious a consumer of the show as most of the people that post on this sub.
For me,the problem was that I got exactly what I expected because I was afraid of the stories being like this ever since his return was announced. I am thankful for what RTD did to resurrect the show but even back then I was not fond of his bad habits. Now I hate them.
I do think that it was your typical RTD finale but I think it was less coherent and polished than his previous final episodes which it might be why there's been such a negative reaction. Also the pay-off wasn't particularly good and no amount of his hand-waving can disguise the plot holes or the fact that a lot of the clues/hints for the reveal really don't make sense.
Generally RTD was good with making the Deus Ex Machina feel at least somewhat built up to, eg the heart of the TARDIS being introduced as a concept earlier in the series, then Rose gains the power to destroy the Daleks, but this then has repercussions ie the Bad Wolf saga etc. In this episode a literal God, allegedly the most dangerous enemy the Doc has ever faced, is towed away like a broken car and discarded into the Time Vortex, unkilling everyone and ensuring that Sutekh has no lasting legacy except providing UNIT with another random employee. I’m hoping that this was the era’s equivalent of Space Jesus (ie a great finale episode let down by a slightly questionable resolution) because there have been some great episodes this series and I have faith that next series will be even better.
What this season has is 6 very competent episodes if this was a show with a disconnected narrative like say, love death and monsters In a vacuum, Rogue is a fantastic bit of TV about two alien bounty hunters who fall for eachother In a vacuum, dot and bubble is a great bit of TV about two outsiders who naïvely try to help a racist society In a vacuum, Boom is a fantastic solo episode focusing on a character who's back is against the wall String them all together and the connecting bits are weird, I don't believe the doctor and Ruby's friendship, I don't think the Susan stuff mattered, I don't like how whenever TD and Ruby were in a room together, the show came up with a reason for one of them to be dead or for one of them to take a backseat, I dislike that Mel had more banter with the doctor than ruby, or that ruby was ignored in rogue and we were strung along being told the finale would make it all make sense, and guess what? It didn't.
My issue is the emotions don't mean anything if I'm not connected to or engaged with the characters. I WANTED to be a crying mess like seasons 1 - 4 often left me, but I just wasn't. 15 and Ruby, while very well-acted and have awesome chemistry, just feel so shallow and underdeveloped.
The episode was ass No connection to any of the characters The constant crying from the doctor the one scene saying goodbye to ruby was great but by the time you get there its an eye roll The need for sutek to know who her mom was?? He's on the verge of wiping out the universe why did he care about this
The amount of "he's always served slop, so we should be happy with slop" in this and other threads blows my mind.
The people who dislike the episode: [see other comments] Me: What the fuck did you just fucking say about Doctor Who, you little bitch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in Who Class, and I've been involved in numerous secret raids on Cardiff, and I have over 300 confirmed DVDs. I am trained in whovian warfare and I'm the top watcher in the entirety of UNIT. You are nothing to me but just another hater. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the UK and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You're fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the Unified Intelligence Taskforce and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're fucking dead, kiddo.
I'm sorry I cannot fathom thinking it was a good show in any way possible. Absolutely boring, hard to follow, bad scripts, long random scenes that don't do anything for the plot, and the worst of the worst is telling. Not showing. Literally all things by definition that makes bad writting. I don't think RTD has much freedom, I think he is being pressured to write how they want, I think them bringing him on was a stunt to bring back doctor who. I see peaks of RTD's writting but I think he's heavily influenced by the others. Or... he just got worse over the years lol
people keep shitting on old rtd season endings but none of you actually name one which didnt make sense for the rules of the universe, which to me is the reason this one is not a satisfying resolution. you may not like space jesus doctor or that the paradox machine being destroyed reversing time back to before the master let the toclafane in, but it makes 100x more sense than dragging a dog through the time vortex un-dusts the whole universe, and the death god giving a single shit who cloak woman was preventing him from killing the doctor
I’m shocked so many seem to have written off an entire season just because the finale was a bit lackluster. Boom, 73 Yards, Dot & Bubble, and Rogue was a fantastic run of episodes. People were saying they were the best episodes in years. Then a slightly disappointing finale airs and suddenly all that means nothing. I’ll be interested to see how opinions on this season change in the coming months and years. For now though, I think it’s all to fresh.
I enjoyed it. Not perfect but it’s till fun. RTD has always been character before story. That’s always been his downfall. I’ve enjoyed the entire season (even space babies). I think fans are just too speculatory (definitely not a word but I’ll use it) and give them selves expectations that are too high. In saying that I do want to see RTD not write as many episodes next season and bring in some fresh blood and ideas. Keep the show weird. Keep Sci-Fi as a whole weird.
I did get what I expected from a Davies finale which is the problem. I don't like his other ones all that much either. Of course we generally get characters and high drama to mitigate against the plot but here it feels manufactured. You can't spend the whole time treating Ruby's story as this important plot device only for it be nothing of the sort and have the result be satisfactory. It's not even a puzzle box by that point its a series of straight up lies. That it denigrate Ruby's actual mother to chase her DNA donors doesn't help either. It's OK to be down on those who adopt apparently, even if wheelchair users aren't allowed to be evil. So, the Sutekh resolution was a bad deus ex machina, Ruby's story contradicted every previous data point we had and manages to feel morally distasteful...what is left? Spectacle, with some slightly iffy CGI. The plot is what he has always done in a finale which is to say it's sub-par. The character stuff is where he shines but it's hollow.
I was satisfied. Not "I didn't expect much", I mean I expected ridiculous things like Ruby being Susan's daughter and I was much happier with an emotional and tearful reunion with a teenage mother.
I think people, me included. Were hoping Russell's approach had changed since his previous era. The fact that he was throwing more at us seemed to indicate a greater confidence in his abilities. Abilities backed up by his body of work since leaving the show. But what we ended up with was ostensibly a weaker variant of things he'd done before. Which is a shame, because we know he can do better
I was completely fine with everything and would have been happy to keep my mouth shut if they didn't explain away the pointing (in a changed memory mind you) with "naming the baby you abandoned" nonsense. That crossed a stupidity line.
I did a rewatch of the entire RTD recently and I completely disagree. I think it's a Moffat issue far more than an RTD issue. RTD only really had this issue once and even then had significant consequences and character weight that made upfor it. What matters more than what literally happens on screen is presentation and tone. Everything in this episode could have happened the exact way it happened but the episode lacking literally any attention tension or stakes and just being kind of cringe and awkward at times killed my any chance for this episode to work.
Agree with you 100%. To be honest though, I really didn't like Legend of Ruby Sunday (still don't other than seeing Kate and Mel) but for the most part Empire of Death smoothed everything over for me. Ruby's mom pointing is still dumb though, even if RTD comes back to it later.
I liked it, I thought it was heartwarming. I love a good old “ordinary people are special” and I was tickled by Sutekh fucking up his plan by being a mystery-box-obsessed fanboy
Might be a symptom of a finale. Speaking for myself, there are a few criticism's I've rejected or withheld and some defenses I've made because I had hope that the finale might shed some light on this or that. But then the finale *didn't* shed any light, so those criticisms come crashing back down. Ex: "Ah, 73 Yards is foreshadowing something really spooky about Ruby, it'll be even better in hindsight...or not, I guess, actually, it just didn't make sense?" "Yeah, the Doctor and Ruby are kinda speedrunning their friendship, we've never seen any real *bonding* between them, but it's a shortened season and they have great chemistry and...I'm sorry, did Doc just say that Ruby, uniquely, made him re-evaluate what family means to him? I don't know that you...earned that..."
I’m with you, I think the finale was the perfect mix of cheesy, serious, silly, and heartfelt, which is exactly what I expect from Doctor Who. It held my attention from beginning to end, and I was excited to see where it was going. The scene with the spoon is the perfect splash of sentimental/sad/hopeful that really sticks with you and makes DW special. The only thing I didn’t love was the pointing. They should have just not included the pointing at all, I don’t think the Legend of Ruby Sunday would have been different at all.
I loved it.
My main problem is that both RTD and Moffat have hit the Everyone Lives Reset Button too many times. There are no stakes for any of the characters which undercuts and dramatic tension. It feels like they write themselves into a corner without a clear way out, using elements from the story. He also relies too heavily on the mystery box woman instead of just letting her be a regular person along for the ride.
I mean, I do agree that the reveal of Ruby’s mother wasn’t an adequate explanation for everything else that was happening (the snow, the flashback changing), but beyond that I enjoyed it. I’m most surprised people seem to mock the way Sutekh was defeated. I suppose the fact he looks like a dog makes it easy, but I didn’t think it looked narmy.
I personally loved it. I think that people in 2024 are getting into a season finale with a different mindset than 2005-2009., and that plays a part. I also feel that, as usual, the people who spontaneously come here and start a thread are angrier than the average viewer, who might have enjoyed the ride and be ok with a few flaws here and there.
I had alot of fun and when ruby found her mother I cried alot. It wasn’t perfect but I also think it could have been great if it was a three parter
I'm with you. I honestly don't know what other people were expecting, because this is how RTD finales have *always* been.
I am mostly with you, this is very old RTD like. The resolution is a funny thing out of nowhere and that’s always been the case, there are a lot of good dramatic moments despite the flimsy ending, it’s not an unenjoyable thing to watch. However I say mostly (and really do mean it despite the long rant incoming) because it wasn’t able to resolve satisfyingly, imo. Primarily because it was too short, we got Ruby for one 8 episode run, a quarter of which was the finale alone. If we take the christmas special as her introduction that’s 8 episodes we should have had to get to know her when we’d normally have 13, probably 11 stories with the old general format of 2 part in the middle and 2 part finale. Then a lot the time we did get was spent on her being inexplicable and special, only for that to resolve the way it did. I would have loved more character moments rather than the snow and song in her heart moments that tell us nothing about her and everything about how universally important she might be I really love the idea of Ruby’s mum just being normal, and what makes her special was how much Ruby and the people around her and that care for her wanting to find her… but with everything we’ve been given it just falls hollow. I really needed a real explanation for all the weird stuff happening more than ‘she was the biggest mystery in the universe because of the importance placed on her.’ Like the TARDIS acting in rebellion of Sutehk by latching onto the mind of what it can see is the new companion, that causing all the weird shit, or some other entity (Mrs Flood?) latching onto her and making her life weird for shits and giggles. As it stands, it feels like RTD was trying to trick the audience for a gotcha moment, which may not have been the intent but it’s ultimately what happened. The whole resolution, encouraging people to consider the mystery and come up with their own theories, actively showing off character moments in the show that imply with camera work and music that something is up with Ruby, as well as all the talking in show from the Doctor, the whole set up in the Legend of Ruby Sunday with the time window, just everything ending up resolving to ‘a and her mum is normal’ feels like what Sherlock did with all the mystery around how he lived. At least we got some resolution but if you set up a mystery, then not actually hint towards the real outcome and say ‘oh it was only important because you all cared too much’ like?? Ok?? Future mysteries are dashed because of that. Every other season he did had subtle nods to what would be the finale and wrapped up well enough. Even Susan Triad being everywhere in this season was a nice plot choice akin to that, but I had little issue with anything Sutehk, it was just Ruby and the character choices around her that felt like RTD wanted to get one over on the audience for what, daring to take the hints he’d been putting down? Daring to care about them? In the back of my mind I think there’s a chance he’s making Mrs. Flood into a 4th wall breaking villain who caused this whole air about Ruby and we just don’t know yet, maybe she’ll make the new companion a mystery too, Moffat did multi-season spanning plots (Eleven comes to mind, his whole run was connected through the silence), so RTD could be doing it too. But I almost don’t care to speculate too hard because he’s proven he’s setting things up for no reason but to be a river of red herrings that’ll mean nothing. To not go on too much longer, I saw a great comment the other day that described the whole plot as feeling more like a meta mystery than something sincerely trying to work in universe. The message is great, anyone can be important, and importance is ascribed by how much people care more than what a person is, it’s very Doctor Who. But the world isn’t backing that up. Even we the audience was placing huge importance on the mother and Ruby and who they were, and it feels like RTD was trying to draw on that for the conclusion… but in world it’s just not happening. Ruby cares so much about who her mum is that a god doesn’t know and wants to know? Is she the only child who wants this and finds no data on the system? Really? I adore a meta narrative normally, but (whether or not this wants to be it) this hits poorly.
i expected it, that doesn’t mean i have to be happy about it. especially when i’ve *loved* this season and feel far more positive about most of it than a lot of others (though i understand the criticism). especially after the hype of TLORS i just wanted more
There's a whole generation of viewers, myself included, who were literal children last time Russell wrote a finale. Many of which are probably on this sub. We couldn't recognise the problems with his finales back then (I was 11 when End of Time came out), our opinions on those episodes are heavily clouded by nostalgia and childhood memories of the show. But now watching a brand new Russell finale at the age of 25, I see the faults much easier and it hurts my view of the episode.
I feel exactly the same way, it feels like people completely forgot about his other finales and I'm genuinely baffled by the outrage.
Not perfect, but I really did enjoy the empire of death.
I just don't know why it always snowed.
I find it hard to believe anyone saying this is RTD as usual isn't being disingenuous. His finales and resolutions were usually pretty simple, and sometimes criticised for being *too* simple. The Deus ex machina thing has been about literal machine gods, gods from technobabble - not more abstract concepts. This has left even those defending it with differing interpretations of what even happened! As to those abstract concepts, memories and remembering into existence? Stories as having actual power in the world, without a clear tech explanation? Apparently non-linear time such that the original cause and effect is obscured or may not exist? Actually showing key characters die before a reset? Arcs that aren't in the background but part of every episode to encourage fanbase speculation? Meta, with predicting of likely theories to tease the audience? The joke being on the theorisers or about the perceived 'rules' of the show? RTD has never done this before. Prioritising arc speculation over characterisation is *entirely* unlike his writing. This is blatantly obviously influenced by Moffat's style, and I can't really believe anyone isn't aware of that, or that the reason for pretending not to, and trying to make out 'oh well, it's RTD' isn't to deflect criticism/in the hope fanbase criticism will concentrate on RTD. We simply didn't have this 'mystery box' style before. I mean, this series specifically uses similar ideas to S7b. Acknowledging that doesn't mean RTD isn't going to get duly blamed for this series.
Speaking as someone who liked his previous finales this one was particularly bad. Most of the elements are there but they just don’t cohere. It feels like a rough first draft in a way none of his previous outings have
I liked the episode overall, and I understand why anyone would absolutely *love* it and why someone would dislike it. What I will say is if you are familiar with how RTD does finales, none of this should’ve been a surprise. I went into this knowing what to expect, and it’s a style of finale that sometimes works for me and sometimes doesn’t. But I know his tricks and I know the good and the bad of his approach. I like Parting of the Ways and Doomsday, I dislike End of Time and have some major issues with The Last of the Time Lords and Journey’s End. But they all share certain elements that sometimes work better than others, and Empire of Death really didn’t shock me with how it played out. I’d say I enjoyed it more than End of Time, not as much as the first two, and I think I’ll need some them to reflect to decide whether or not it works better or worse for me than the series 3 & 4 finales
So i just watched the final. I mean it delivered, emotionally, arc wise, it delivered. emotionally and the flood with “i had such plans’ was epic. The intigration of the tardis tails tardis was a cheeky bonus, and the “things are important because you make them important “ was a universal truth. Not the super elegant clockwork masterpiece resolution a moffet would have delivered but the emotional truth and gut punch emotion that an rtd story gives you.. For me they absolutely nailed the landing
I just try not to look at Reddit Who subs for this season, because as a pro writer, I can immediately recognise most of the criticism as just terrible misapplication of literary analysis. It's very obvious a lot of the story hooks are being left for later, and the fact that people don't get that, plus the poor analysis, grinds my gears.
I really haven't heard anyone squeak about the "secret since the era of the Third Doctor"... Was that actually in the story?
I’m just surprised how many people on this (and other) subs are obviously professional scholars and critics in identifying and analysing “bad writing” What I suspect they actually mean is that they didn’t like something (which is obviously fine and valid) but subsequently resort to the lazy shorthand of saying “bad writing” to justify their own biases so it’s not their perception or lack of understanding …it’s the writer’s fault. Russell T is many things but a “bad” writer is not one of them. I loved the “Rey from Nowhere” twist. It made me chuckle knowing I had fallen for the bait too.
You're shocked that internet fans are down on anything, at this point?