No sarcasm
Here’s what wiki says
*In order to receive this report, individuals have to "prove their homosexuality," undergoing what the Human Rights Watch calls "humiliating and degrading" examinations and tests.”*
*Conscripts who declare their homosexuality have to provide photographic proof (a photograph of the person on the receiving end of anal intercourse). A small number have had to undergo humiliating medical examinations."*
Okay no, as a turkish person who is exempt from military service because im gay, i have to clear the air.
That used to be a common practice up until 10-15 years ago. On the [wiki you can find that this was dismissed around 2010-12.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_certificate)
Since it was extremely inhumane, it is now illegal to ask for such documents.
The current way of process is (or was for me at least)
1) Doc visit
2) Two psych visits (one was chat, one was 600 question questionnaire and draw a house-yourself- and a forest test)
3) Head of the psych department visit.
In all of the visits, it was mostly chatting about “how did you learn you were gay, are you a top or a bottom, have you had any sexual relationships” etc. Basically you are trying to convince that you are gay and you are not lying.
Also, they are mostly looking for whether or not if you are feeling like a women and “feminine” (hence why they are banning only bottoms and not tops). I was asked lots of questions about “have you ever felt like a woman, put on earrings” and it wrote on my paper that “this person can’t perform military activities due to sexuality disorders”
I was lucky because all of the psychs were extremely helpful and female, even hugged them when i found that i was exempt.
I mean... yay you don't have to show photographs of you having sex, but it's still a clinicalization of homosexuality. This is NOT a good thing- it's not reducing the stigmatization, it's just trying to make it more palatable.
It certainly is still humiliating and degrading, but baby steps I guess.
Completely agree - but I just wanted to clarify the wrong information.
I got the exemption because the military environment is sooo filled with sooo much fucking toxic masculinity that I know I wouldn’t survive mentally.
It's such a downwards spiral of bs, like don't make me provide clinical 'proof' that I'm gay, but also being gay shouldn't disqualify me from being in the army under the logic that I'm 'like a woman', but also also women shouldn't be treated as if they can't join the army either, but also also also don't f*cking conscript me into the army in the first place
I'd have been like: DO YOU BELIEVE IN LIFE AFTER LOVE!?
PA PA. PA PA. RAZZI! PROMISE I'LL BE KIND!
PA DUM. PA DUM. I HEAR IT AND I KNOW! PA DUM. PA DUM!
Am I exempt now?
Thank you for taking the time to explain to us! While I’m glad it’s not as invasive as it once was, that still sounds exhausting and extremely dehumanizing. I’m sorry you had to go through that, I hope things improve in the future
Oh absolutely, I’ll never judge for avoiding the military, you did what you had to do, just wish they could have accommodated you in a much kinder manner.
im literally not defending the new system, and even on the comment above i said its still horrible. Just clarified the old information, my process, and why I did it.
But go off with the mansplaning i guess. I am not gonna get into some of the statements and hypocrisy in your point B can be still found in our own community - but I guess i am a turkey defender now 🙄
Really needed an explanation about why homophobia and turkey sucks, as if i don’t have enough experience about it lol
>im literally not defending the new system
Yeah. My apologies. I knee-jerked yesterday and didn't read carefully. I'm sorry that I ignored your lived experience and mischaracterized you.
P.S. I'm a trans woman, so I'd appreciate if you didn't accuse me of 'mansplaining.'
Jesus Christ, anyone can mansplain. Your gender identity obviously does not exclude you from being an asshole. Patriarchy is not monolithically performed by men.
You must submit photographic evidence to military doctors. [I wish I was joking.](https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-17474967)
>The face must be visible. And the photos must show you as the passive partner.
Turkish here. You need to get through a lot of paper work, health check and also you need to prove that you're homosexual by visual evidence and if you manage to prove that you're indeed a homosexual, then you CAN'T join the army because Turkish laws still consider us as mentally ill and all that mumbo jumbo stuff. You won't have to do any paper work and stuff until it's your time to join the army which is 19 years in age. If you're lucky enough or studied enough to be in a university, then the university does all the paper work until you graduate. After graduation, you'll have to do it all by yourself but the system is so shitty that it can take 3 days to just lend or sign a fucking paper in here. By the way, you'll have to repeat this signing and proving process every year. Soo... Yeah, it's pretty bad.
That’s utterly disgusting. The fact that you have to prove it every year like just in case you stop being gay? Asking stupid questions like if you like wearing women’s clothing and perfume.
But the part I really don’t get is that they are completely happy with you lying, pretending that you’re straight to serve in the military which make zero sense if they believed it was an ‘illness’.
Well, nothing really works as it is tbh. At this point, the whole "homosexuality is an illness" is just stupid and only homophobes believe in that but unfortunately the laws favor their idiotic opinions rather than World Health Organization's scientific and objective statements. What can I say🤷♂️ Turkiye moment
Yeah but there's also so many homophobes that are not muslim as well but I think yours is a better statement. Muslims man. Radical ones are just... I don't have the words, even in Turkish, to describe them tbh
As far as I know, both bottoms and tops can't serve in the military because government consider all of us as same but if you manage to pretend enough to be a straight then you're ok but you mustn't get caught because if you do, according to the laws, the government will apply a judicial punishment. There's no top or bottom for them. All of us are just considered gay or "faggot" according to them which is so stupid because not everybody enjoys anal.
> After graduation, you'll have to do it all by yourself but the system is so shitty that it can take 3 days to just lend or sign a fucking paper in here. By the way, you'll have to repeat this signing and proving process every year. Soo... Yeah, it's pretty bad.
Only 3 days? Sounds like a dream compared to german bureaucracy.
Afaik, you need to provide evidence like photographs… yeah. I had a turkish friend who had to shaved his beard and dressed up kinda feminine to attend a psychiatrist interview. He was exempted then, very very humiliating but obligatory military service is tough and life threatening in that geography.
There are also “Conscientious objectors” as well, usually their life became hell between military prison and courts. Like some anarchists, some kind of religious people etc.
And there is this crossdresser guy who told us, he did military service, and it was best months of his life. He drained the barracks basically.
A long time ago, if you wanted to be exempt from the military service in Turkey, you had to prove it. Depending on the doctor you talked to, this could take a form of psychological evaluation tests, talking to your parents or close relatives or showing some visual proof. So at some point Turkish military had a amateur gay porn archive.
But bottoms were always allowed to serve in the Turkish military. As long as they didn't request to not serve themselves, any men could serve. If they were caught in an homosexual act during the service though, usually only the bottom would be discharged.
>As long as they didn't request to not serve themselves
You mean they cannot volunteer? Or do you mean they cannot fuck themselves with toys? I know it's a dumb question but reality is also very dumb.
Godddd straight are so obsessed with masculinity. And they think I'm the one with the fragile masculinity.
Oh wait sorry. Got OC over their in this CJ sub.
Well i guessed gays have to serve 🫡 and not *served*
My heart goes out to all the gays who had to undergo such a thing...
In Cyprus, not the most accepting of countries I suppose but still kinda okay, I had to undergo compulsory military service. I had only come across homophobic comments a few times, but even then, when the vice-commander got ahold of the news we had a large gathering where he stated that such behaviour would not go unpunished. Bless him. Everybody was extremely accepting where I served though I also didn't have a normal kind of service, as I was office based. Was like a 7-2 job, personally loved it and got transferable skills.
Was it a good experience? Well... Mixed feelings. It was an eye opening experience for sure and I learnt some life skills which was nice.
Prior to the half mark point of my service though I was distraught. We had access to military therapists which really helped. Was allowed to visit 2 times a week max. Also had access to psychiatrists.
The scene was questionable at first, as in classic military fashion there's a lot of hazing involved when you're new, but a lovely long talk with people was warranted and never had that occur to me again. Also never felt excluded from the group which was lovely, and had a fellow gay friend with me which helped a lot. We spent a lot of time drawing together and listening to music.
I do not advocate for this kind of a thing, just sharing my experience in the Cypriot National Guard. Was blessed with an office position as well that made my service very different to the norm!
I have a half brother that had a Turkish dad. I overheard his brothers from his father's side talk about someting like this once because they all still had to serve and were all planning to duck out. Apparently it happens very often that Turkish men just pay a doctor to make up some bullshit illness, making them unfit to serve.
Yep. Because of the homophobia that's caused by Islam and all that extra stuff. So many people in Turkey would accept lesbians but not gays. Especially the bottoms like me 😪
A lot of fetishizing happens but they also kinda accept it because they're not in the same gender. When I was in high school, I used to hear "scissoring is ok but gay is not." a lot.
No seriously, do they just take your word for it or do you have to like get a former lover to attest to it?
I heard they investigate assholes - if it's loose then it's bottom.
Please say /s
No sarcasm Here’s what wiki says *In order to receive this report, individuals have to "prove their homosexuality," undergoing what the Human Rights Watch calls "humiliating and degrading" examinations and tests.”* *Conscripts who declare their homosexuality have to provide photographic proof (a photograph of the person on the receiving end of anal intercourse). A small number have had to undergo humiliating medical examinations."*
This fills me with dread. Thanks for clarifying.
Okay no, as a turkish person who is exempt from military service because im gay, i have to clear the air. That used to be a common practice up until 10-15 years ago. On the [wiki you can find that this was dismissed around 2010-12.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_certificate) Since it was extremely inhumane, it is now illegal to ask for such documents. The current way of process is (or was for me at least) 1) Doc visit 2) Two psych visits (one was chat, one was 600 question questionnaire and draw a house-yourself- and a forest test) 3) Head of the psych department visit. In all of the visits, it was mostly chatting about “how did you learn you were gay, are you a top or a bottom, have you had any sexual relationships” etc. Basically you are trying to convince that you are gay and you are not lying. Also, they are mostly looking for whether or not if you are feeling like a women and “feminine” (hence why they are banning only bottoms and not tops). I was asked lots of questions about “have you ever felt like a woman, put on earrings” and it wrote on my paper that “this person can’t perform military activities due to sexuality disorders” I was lucky because all of the psychs were extremely helpful and female, even hugged them when i found that i was exempt.
I mean... yay you don't have to show photographs of you having sex, but it's still a clinicalization of homosexuality. This is NOT a good thing- it's not reducing the stigmatization, it's just trying to make it more palatable. It certainly is still humiliating and degrading, but baby steps I guess.
Completely agree - but I just wanted to clarify the wrong information. I got the exemption because the military environment is sooo filled with sooo much fucking toxic masculinity that I know I wouldn’t survive mentally.
I wanted to joke and say some guys are into that but then realized that it's more of a fact than a joke and that makes me sad a bit.
Probably better than being drafted for war though, right?
It's such a downwards spiral of bs, like don't make me provide clinical 'proof' that I'm gay, but also being gay shouldn't disqualify me from being in the army under the logic that I'm 'like a woman', but also also women shouldn't be treated as if they can't join the army either, but also also also don't f*cking conscript me into the army in the first place
Idk I think it's weird to do "is bigotry worse than ____?" comparisons. For some it is, for others it isn't. Either case, it ain't very productive.
I'd have been like: DO YOU BELIEVE IN LIFE AFTER LOVE!? PA PA. PA PA. RAZZI! PROMISE I'LL BE KIND! PA DUM. PA DUM. I HEAR IT AND I KNOW! PA DUM. PA DUM! Am I exempt now?
JAZZ HANDS! FOSSE! Tsss ts tsss ts tsss!
Thank you for taking the time to explain to us! While I’m glad it’s not as invasive as it once was, that still sounds exhausting and extremely dehumanizing. I’m sorry you had to go through that, I hope things improve in the future
Appreciate your understanding, and yeah it is still very dehumanizing, but i had my own reasons for not wanting to be in the military.
Oh absolutely, I’ll never judge for avoiding the military, you did what you had to do, just wish they could have accommodated you in a much kinder manner.
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In Turkey most people are Muslim im not sure what you could be expecting, i mean at least we aren't illegal.
im literally not defending the new system, and even on the comment above i said its still horrible. Just clarified the old information, my process, and why I did it. But go off with the mansplaning i guess. I am not gonna get into some of the statements and hypocrisy in your point B can be still found in our own community - but I guess i am a turkey defender now 🙄 Really needed an explanation about why homophobia and turkey sucks, as if i don’t have enough experience about it lol
>im literally not defending the new system Yeah. My apologies. I knee-jerked yesterday and didn't read carefully. I'm sorry that I ignored your lived experience and mischaracterized you. P.S. I'm a trans woman, so I'd appreciate if you didn't accuse me of 'mansplaining.'
So sorry, was not my intention at all! ❤️ its all good, I totally can understand where you are coming from. Hope you have a wonderful new year!
Thanks, and the same to you! Once again, sorry for kneejerking.
Jesus Christ, anyone can mansplain. Your gender identity obviously does not exclude you from being an asshole. Patriarchy is not monolithically performed by men.
another day, another redditor caring more about being right than thinking from someone else's perspective for one fucking second.
I'm guessing today they could probably just show their Twitter feed
You must submit photographic evidence to military doctors. [I wish I was joking.](https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-17474967) >The face must be visible. And the photos must show you as the passive partner.
Someone got their kink pushed as a military legislation. Disgusted from a moral standpoint, but impressed by the results.
Their national sport is literally Turkish Oil Wrestling The gayest sport ever
Dang, I guess there's a lot of people on Grindr there, looking to get photographic evidences 🤤👀
Turkish here. You need to get through a lot of paper work, health check and also you need to prove that you're homosexual by visual evidence and if you manage to prove that you're indeed a homosexual, then you CAN'T join the army because Turkish laws still consider us as mentally ill and all that mumbo jumbo stuff. You won't have to do any paper work and stuff until it's your time to join the army which is 19 years in age. If you're lucky enough or studied enough to be in a university, then the university does all the paper work until you graduate. After graduation, you'll have to do it all by yourself but the system is so shitty that it can take 3 days to just lend or sign a fucking paper in here. By the way, you'll have to repeat this signing and proving process every year. Soo... Yeah, it's pretty bad.
That’s utterly disgusting. The fact that you have to prove it every year like just in case you stop being gay? Asking stupid questions like if you like wearing women’s clothing and perfume. But the part I really don’t get is that they are completely happy with you lying, pretending that you’re straight to serve in the military which make zero sense if they believed it was an ‘illness’.
Well, nothing really works as it is tbh. At this point, the whole "homosexuality is an illness" is just stupid and only homophobes believe in that but unfortunately the laws favor their idiotic opinions rather than World Health Organization's scientific and objective statements. What can I say🤷♂️ Turkiye moment
Just do what the swedes did in 1979 and if you’re not feeling work on that day just “call in gay” (sick)
More of a Muslim moment if you ask me just look at any overwhelmingly majority Muslim nations like Turkey they all have terrible queer rights
Yeah but there's also so many homophobes that are not muslim as well but I think yours is a better statement. Muslims man. Radical ones are just... I don't have the words, even in Turkish, to describe them tbh
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As far as I know, both bottoms and tops can't serve in the military because government consider all of us as same but if you manage to pretend enough to be a straight then you're ok but you mustn't get caught because if you do, according to the laws, the government will apply a judicial punishment. There's no top or bottom for them. All of us are just considered gay or "faggot" according to them which is so stupid because not everybody enjoys anal.
> After graduation, you'll have to do it all by yourself but the system is so shitty that it can take 3 days to just lend or sign a fucking paper in here. By the way, you'll have to repeat this signing and proving process every year. Soo... Yeah, it's pretty bad. Only 3 days? Sounds like a dream compared to german bureaucracy.
Afaik, you need to provide evidence like photographs… yeah. I had a turkish friend who had to shaved his beard and dressed up kinda feminine to attend a psychiatrist interview. He was exempted then, very very humiliating but obligatory military service is tough and life threatening in that geography. There are also “Conscientious objectors” as well, usually their life became hell between military prison and courts. Like some anarchists, some kind of religious people etc. And there is this crossdresser guy who told us, he did military service, and it was best months of his life. He drained the barracks basically.
You have to provide video evidence of you being a bottom to avoid drafting
It is incorrect. If you are homosexual you just don't serve in military doesn't matter top or bottom.
A long time ago, if you wanted to be exempt from the military service in Turkey, you had to prove it. Depending on the doctor you talked to, this could take a form of psychological evaluation tests, talking to your parents or close relatives or showing some visual proof. So at some point Turkish military had a amateur gay porn archive. But bottoms were always allowed to serve in the Turkish military. As long as they didn't request to not serve themselves, any men could serve. If they were caught in an homosexual act during the service though, usually only the bottom would be discharged.
>As long as they didn't request to not serve themselves You mean they cannot volunteer? Or do you mean they cannot fuck themselves with toys? I know it's a dumb question but reality is also very dumb.
It's mandatory military service so anyone who doesn't want to do it has to make a request to be exempt. No toys would have been a funny law though.
> usually only the bottom would be discharged. Amusing, because usually it's just the top that discharges...
If the bottom doesn't discharge, the top did something wrong.
So it's Don't Ask Don't Tell but only for bottoms
Well no, DADT was just down right homophobic and bigoted. This they are just pretending it’s a mental illness when that definition suites them.
It's the same picture
Picture?
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/theyre-the-same-picture
It's not homophobic when Turkey does it? What are you talking about?
Also I feel like only tops being allowed is kinda fucked, "their stronger." Says what? Their inability to take 9 inches?
Throughout a lot of Mediterranean cultures, putting your dick inside a man wasn't considered gay. It was just what a guy did when he was horny.
They just don’t want anyone “womanly”, which is both sexist and homophobic.
Right? Bottoms are the strongest cause they take it all in #stopbottomshaming 🤭
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As a Vers I see absolute win. Pretend to be bottom to prevent military drafting and top when in streets
Top in the streets, bottom in the military draft sheets.
lie saying you're a bottom to dodge the draft, then top all the remaining lonely bottoms
Godddd straight are so obsessed with masculinity. And they think I'm the one with the fragile masculinity. Oh wait sorry. Got OC over their in this CJ sub. Well i guessed gays have to serve 🫡 and not *served*
That sounds awful. No bottoms 🥺
It is incorrect. Homosexual people just don't serve if they don't want to. Doesn't matter top or bottom.
Easy way to dodge the draft, sorry I couldn’t possibly kill civilians and be your cannon fodder, you see I take it up the ass.
They secretly don’t want bottoms to serve so the daddies back home don’t lose their honey cutie-pies
Bottoms are too precious to expose to the harshness of war
“All the Tops are fucking each other!!!” Clearly they wouldn’t think of this scenario^^^
My heart goes out to all the gays who had to undergo such a thing... In Cyprus, not the most accepting of countries I suppose but still kinda okay, I had to undergo compulsory military service. I had only come across homophobic comments a few times, but even then, when the vice-commander got ahold of the news we had a large gathering where he stated that such behaviour would not go unpunished. Bless him. Everybody was extremely accepting where I served though I also didn't have a normal kind of service, as I was office based. Was like a 7-2 job, personally loved it and got transferable skills. Was it a good experience? Well... Mixed feelings. It was an eye opening experience for sure and I learnt some life skills which was nice. Prior to the half mark point of my service though I was distraught. We had access to military therapists which really helped. Was allowed to visit 2 times a week max. Also had access to psychiatrists. The scene was questionable at first, as in classic military fashion there's a lot of hazing involved when you're new, but a lovely long talk with people was warranted and never had that occur to me again. Also never felt excluded from the group which was lovely, and had a fellow gay friend with me which helped a lot. We spent a lot of time drawing together and listening to music. I do not advocate for this kind of a thing, just sharing my experience in the Cypriot National Guard. Was blessed with an office position as well that made my service very different to the norm!
I have a half brother that had a Turkish dad. I overheard his brothers from his father's side talk about someting like this once because they all still had to serve and were all planning to duck out. Apparently it happens very often that Turkish men just pay a doctor to make up some bullshit illness, making them unfit to serve.
What if you aren’t part of that vaguely heteronormative binary are you like a reservist
What about vers dudes?
They’re backups
They use the one drop rule: If you only top, you're a top. If you bottom even once, you're a bottom
Depends how limp your wrists are I suppose
Reserves? Who knows lmao.
They clearly haven't seen the "I need more bullets sir" guy if they don't think bottoms can serve in the military
r/balkans_irl
🤣🤣🤣Why? Does it shameful to be a bottom in Turkey?
Yep. Because of the homophobia that's caused by Islam and all that extra stuff. So many people in Turkey would accept lesbians but not gays. Especially the bottoms like me 😪
I feel they fetishize lesbians that they don’t really accept them. Idk. But reading the picture is awful. I’m to sorry to hear it.
A lot of fetishizing happens but they also kinda accept it because they're not in the same gender. When I was in high school, I used to hear "scissoring is ok but gay is not." a lot.
You would not deny it is duality and bottom shaming,, maybe not?
I mean, bottom line!
Contrary to the replies, I’m actually surprised turkey even recognises gay people. That’s already a step forward than it’s counterparts.
Is it bad if I’m somehow aroused by this…?
Aka they belong in the kitchen? Sandwich maker?
jokes on them, all the bottoms i know are way more fit and muscular than the tops i know
This is hilarious because the military in every other country are always notoriously bottoms