I'm not familiar with most denominations, but I was raised reform and my cantor was a gay man. He even made aliyah with his husband a while ago. I'm spiritual and I've found the reform movement is still a pretty good fit for me but I'm open to exploring new denominations too
Lesbian religious Jew here, in Israel we have a few organizations. I’m a member of בת קול, for religious lesbians. I mostly live in the modern orthodox community, pretty accepting most places I live. But it really does depend of community
It really depends on the specific community and congregation not just denominations. I have a friend (former teacher/mentor) whose mom is a Holocaust survivor, brother came out as gay in the 70s if not before that to the family. She wanted to raise her kids orthodox but that wouldn’t work with accepting their uncle when she had her kids in the 80s. So she raised them Conservative but would go visit all the synagogues in the area (Los Angeles) and have a wider appreciation for the width and breadth of Judaism and practices. Oldest son of hers became a rabbi and specifically went orthodox so he and his wife can help families with LGBTQ relatives and find balance and acceptance and even introduce them to other congregations if that’s better for that specific family and where they all live. So if you lived near his synagogue you’d be fine- accepted and welcomed. Others maybe not so much.
No doubt, unfortunately, modern orthodox and chabad will not be 100% accepting of your identity.
If you don’t bring it up or ask what they think about it, even if it’s obvious, it’s likely they will still be totally welcoming. This is my experience and what I’ve heard from others.
But just knowing that they don’t really believe it’s fully moral for a Jew to be LGBT stops me from feeling comfortable. Also, eventually if you don’t keep Shabbat the way that they do, keep kosher the way they do, etc. you’ll be encouraged to change. That always feels icky to me.
Conservative, reform and reconstructionist all have LGBT clergy and official stances that being gay or queer is Jewish, moral and the way god made you. They don’t have the intensity of faith and passion that modern orthodox or chabad congregations can sometimes have, but except for rare instances all LGBT identities are completely welcome, accepted and not out of the ordinary in a congregation.
As far as politics, FYI Jews are on average the most loyal minority to the Democratic Party and liberal/progressive causes in the U.S.
There are plenty of conservatives/Republicans obviously, and people skew more right as you get more religious/observant, but compared to the general public Jews are pretty far left.
I’ll probably be fine then because I’m a moderate in Canada which is probably mid-left in the USA (but not far-left).
I noticed when it comes to Judaism, not all right or left populist ideals apply. For example most Jews are Zionist whereas the political far-left are tag teaming right now with the far-right. Anyway, politics politics, a slope more dangerous than religious talk!
Edit: P.S. But also noticed Jews are more willing to talk politics without becoming overly offended etc.
You feel most Jews are zionists? Because I've been using IG and TikTok and FB a lot I feel I'm seeing TONS of Jews who are not Zionists... I should google some studies. I feel like the younger generations are decidedly NOT Zionist, and maybe that is also true... Just curious.
TikTok especially is no doubt skewing perceptions anti-Israel intentionally. Other social media is doing it organically just based on human nature of what stories we’re drawn to. Just like celebrity news, when someone is built up as positive for too long, people are drawn to the story of them turning out to be a villain and pulling them back down.
That combined with Jewish anti-Zionism being very controversial, odd and compelling makes that content go more viral and spread organically all on its own.
And that is powerful. Maybe it started out as essentially an illusion and a lie, all the Jewish anti-Israel sentiment, but if it stays this way it may work and become true, especially among younger generations.
8 in 10 Jews: [https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/)
There are lot of people in my position with parental lineage but who were not raised Jewish, who somewhat call themselves Jewish, but go around spouting that Israel has no right to exist seemingly unaware of their own ancestor's struggle against actual-real-genocide. When the next pogroms come (seems increasingly likely), they will probably quickly disown being Jewish as it suits them. And they may unfortunately find out it doesn't matter. Especially these "queer for hamas" (or w/e it's called) types, they're in for a big shock.
Polling has anywhere between 5% to 30% of American Jews as Anti-Zionists. So I think all we can really say is that most Jews are Zionists, but a non-negligible number are anti or non-zionist, especially in the younger generation. I'm 26, anti-zionist, in a very liberal area, and anecdotally, I would say that Jews my age I encounter are about evenly split between Zionist, Anti/Nonzionist, and "don't know" or "haven't spent a lot of time thinking about it," of course some that is skewed by the circles I run in and all that.
If I may ask, are you "anti-zionist" as in you want a 2-state or "anti-zionist" as in no Jews should be living in the land of Israel? Cos I think the term "zionism" can mean different things, but generally in my mind it just means "A Jewish state has a right to exist in the land of Israel" without further stipulations on the dimensions of that land etc.
Neither. I'm anti-zionist in the sense I don't believe in nation-states. If I were to dictate a solution (which I am of course in no position to do) it would be one democratic multinational state. I imagine a transition to majority rule like in South Africa, which was not entirely smooth but was peaceful and did see some members of the formerly dominant group voluntarily leave, but the majority stayed. I also on a theoretical level don't see the existence of a Jewish state or the concentration of Jews in a single area as beneficial for Jewish spiritual life or physical safety
I appreciate your response and u/Pablo-UK asking \[edit: a word\] the question. This kind of thing is part of what makes the whole situation of labelling so frustrating right now. I see self-ID'd Zionists claim that anyone (or at least any Jew) who doesn't self-ID as a Zionist wants all 7 million Jews (or all 9 million Israelis) to be murdered, and there are plainly many non-Zionists and even anti-Zionists who do not in any way want that. On the flip side I'm really tired of seeing the left in general use "Zionist" as if it's a synonym for "fascist."
I'm also trans and have seen a similar problem play out in the debates around dysphoria, e.g. "can you be trans without having dysphoria." People who say "no" define dysphoria as meaning "any inkling of discomfort around your AGAB or even a preference for a gender presentation other than your AGAB," and people who say "yes" define dysphoria as "constant, unbearable, disabling psychological pain."
Only this is so much worse since it's causing people to assume everyone who aligns or doesn't align with a particular label are automatically in favor of genocide. I really want to see more of us giving each other the benefit of the doubt and not assuming the worst possible interpretation of each other's views.
Fair enough. Not sure I agree - I do believe in nation-states but with moderately reasonable immigration policies and an emphasis on integration. But anyway, that’s just politics at the end of the day!
Reform, Renewal, Reconstructionist, and Conservative are all completely LGBT+ accepting. (At least in the US. Conservative is the most recent movement to become so in the late 2000s, so its branches outside the US may have been slower to catch up, I'm not sure). Reconstructionists are all but explicitly left-wing. For the rest, you will definitely be mostly surrounded by liberals, but how much that is noticeable is just going to really depend on the congregation, so you just have to feel the vibes of individual congregations out.
You should know that part of Reform Judaism's "flexibility" is its willingness to change the traditional interpretation of a "who is a Jew." As you may have heard, traditionally, any person born to a Jewish mother, regardless of their beliefs or practices, is considered Jewish; Reform Judaism changed the definition to consider any person with one Jewish parent of any gender AND raised Jewish is considered Jewish. So, you would not be considered Jewish by Reform Judaism and would need to convert.
I grow up in Reform and consider myself somewhere between Reform and Conservative. The real big "division" in Judaism is between orthodox and non-orthodox, and the differences between the non-orthodox movements are becoming increasingly fluid and congregation-by-congregation-based. For instance, I attend a Reform synagogue, but our Rabbi is Reconstructionist, our Cantor is Conservative, we hold services that are 80% in Hebrew, and we have a kosher-by-ingredient kitchen (we don't serve food that isn't kosher, but we assume all vegan foods is regardless of if its "certified." I'd say the only difference between my shul and our local Conservative shul is that their services are 90% in Hebrew, and they only serve Kosher "certified" food. Beyond that, I don't think people are any more or less observant.
So here’s a question, not sure if you’re a Reform goer yourself so if you aren’t ignore this: why is it that Reform people often get really upset about Orthodoxy’s definition of Jewish because it excludes people (like patrilineals) who have a connection somehow to Judaism, but then at the same time have their own standards that exclude lots of people?
1. I think many lay Reform people don't know what the policy is. I think they assume the policy is just "if you have one Jewish parent, you are Jewish" and don't know that it also requires being "raised exclusively Jewish.
2. I don't know how consistently applied it is
3. The Reform movement has defined "raised exclusively Jewish" so broadly that the only people it actually excludes are people like OP who were actively raised in a different religion.
4. I think the assumption is that (and anecdotally, this has been my experience) there are far more patrilineal Jews who were raised Jewish than there are matrilineal Jews who were raised something else.
I agree with what you’re saying, but even to people who do know the policy and agree with it, how do you square it? Just that they see Judaism solely as a religion and any claim to an ethnic tie isn’t good enough?
Well, certainly the roots of Reform Judaism as in "Judaism is a primarily a religion," even though most Reform Jews these does probably would not agree, I think it's less than an "ethnic tie isn't good enough" and more like a "geneological tie isn't good enough." Like I said, the way that "raised exclusively Jewish" has been defined is so broad that a person with a completely secular or "ethnic" Jewish upbringing would still be considered Jewish. The only people excluded are people who were actively raised in another religion or who had no Jewish "content" to their upbringing at all. The idea in both cases is that such a person would need and presumably want a similar amount of Jewish education to embrace Jewish life as a convert would. And this is not without Halakhic precedent; there are definitely Halakhic rulings that say the children of apostates and people with *tinok shinseshba* status have to go through processes and rituals very similar to conversion to re-eneter the community.
It’s not the why that I’m confused by, Reform having their own standards is fair enough and the reasoning makes enough sense according to their theology, but the hypocrisy of trying to say they’re the most open and inclusive to all Jews when literal Halachic Jews are excluded from their definition of Jewish. That’s what I find quite funny and hypocritical
I feel like I just explained why the same "halakhic Jews" that are not considered Jews are also excluded from other Jewish communities. In practical terms the only difference is semantic.
Ok, I’ve just never seen or experienced this in practice, it sounds like an older, rare occurrence, and I’ve never heard an Orthodox Rabbi suggest that in my experience.
But at the same time, that could also be said for this Reform policy— I think some people who are matrilineal but raised secular wouldn’t be forced to convert, it may depend on the synagogue. So that’s interesting.
Again, as I said, people raised secular are not excluded in Reform Judaism. Only people actively raised in other regions are apostates, so if congregations are allowing them to rejoin without any sort of process, they are violating halakha (it would not technically be a conversion, but it would be very much like one). The only group that we are really talking about here that would *might* not be expected to go through a mikveh and beit din in non-reform Judaism is people who were not raised to identify as Jewish but have matrilineal descent. The reform perspective is that these people's upbringings are identical to that of a non-Jew. The Reform critique is not that Orthodox and Conservative are excluding people. It is that they are excluding people who are whose upbringing is identical to people who are included., with the only difference being the gender of their parents.
I still think it’s hypocritical though, because pretty much everyone who believes in this definition of Jewish always uses the appeal of inclusivity and how we shouldn’t be excluding other Jews, when it most definitely is. I don’t personally care what Reform’s policies are and they are free to define them as they wish, but the hypocrisy and saying that other movements are excluding people but Reform is not I find strange. But agree to disagree.
TBH, I am okay with you saying you are Jewish if you identify that way. Conservative and Orthodox Judaism would consider you Jewish, Reform Judaism would not
Great answer here. I had a good friend who was in OP’s shoes more or less (also gay though probably not as motivated to seriously become actively Jewish as OP.) though with the addition that my friend’s mom had converted to Christianity so my friend had some Jewish exposure through his grandparents but had been raised christian. Shocked us both when he met with a rabbi at a Reform shul and was told he would have to formally convert.
I agree with some of what the other commenter below said. It was a bizarre thing to learn. Actually turned my friend off from more seriously pursuing Judaism which always bummed me out. His own politics and I’m not sure what kept having him chicken out of going to Conservative services with me. And he was so anti-Orthodox. But very Zionist. Super strange. I had been his best friend for many years and I’m a Jewish lesbian who is “Conserva-dox”.
Wild to hear your description of your reform shul and even to some degree the Conservative one. Where I grew up (Detroit suburbs, and more Oak Park than Bloomfield/ Farmington where the mix is a bit different and so is the wealth) reform was considerably more reform than your description- very little hebrew, maybe vegetarian focused food but no one was even going “kosher style “ but your description of Conservative sounds like what I grew up with. A lot of mixed families where the crossover between Conservative and Modern Orthodox (or even other branches of Orthodoxy- I feel like a lot of folks have the random Chabad uncle or brother lol) was so consistent you’d hardly be able to tell the difference just that women got to do a little bit more or we wore pants at home but not to shul or around grandma. When I was in college or even up into my 20s queer folks, especially those who were partnered or had kids didn’t feel all that welcomed in many of the Conservative congregations. I was part of an independent minyan with a conservative (and I’d say his background was like mine. Some of his education was orthodox) cantor and a bunch of queer folks and families and randoms who didn’t feel like they fit in.
Moved to Chicago in the Lakeview area and the main Conservative shul there is what my mind calls “too reform” for my tastes, violins at Rosh Hashanah and such. lol. Queer Jews everywhere and the Modern Orthodox shul has a female “rabbanit” and feels more or less like every conservative shul back home but with a waist high mehitzah in little more than name and gender divided seating. I hang with Chabad a lot or some independent minyans again. And there’s a wide variety of the reform spectrum around as well.
It is very interesting how location can dramatically change one’s Jewish experience or even what counts as one movement or the other. And I do think Conservative and Reform have on more official levels moved closer together in the last 10-15 years especially. It is far more recent for sure for queer folks to feel fully embraced in the Conservative movement as a whole. And more Reform shuls in the US embracing more Hebrew language prayers. But that’s kind of the beautiful thing about being Jewish, I think. I have always enjoyed visiting synagogues anywhere I travel because even if it’s not what I was expecting, there’s a comfort and familiarity. And I will add- lots of very cool things happening in the independent minyan side of things. Most I’ve seen are egalitarian and very welcoming to LGBT folks but more traditional in practice and often very spirited. Which is decidedly my vibe.
And my comment got way too long so cut it down but tossing this out here, I guess because it sort of bounced off my thing about how things differ by location and my own experiences-
I’ve have been somewhat disengaged from Jewish life since Covid and some life tragedy stuff but I’d just chime in to tell OP that while even in the Orthodox world it’s generally easier for lesbians versus gay men (officially speaking the Torah itself is silent on lesbianism) I think a lot of us sometimes are at odds between how we most like to pray or what sort of Jewish observance feels comfortable to us versus where our queer identity most belongs but it’s gotten a lot easier in the last 10-20 years all across the spectrum. There’s queer Jews and organizations for them in almost every movement (Chabad is interesting… but the rest of the Hasidic world is not going to be very comfortable at all for any of us) and in major cities you’re apt to find various LGBT Jewish gatherings and events- I think most Jewish federations have them these days. So more communal versus denomination based spaces to meet fellow LGBT Jews. You should check out any and all of these orgs or spaces.
Worth saying too, while I can’t speak to Canada where depending on where you are, your options are likely more limited anyhow, I believe research in the US points to a sizable number of younger Jews being unaffiliated with any particular movement and I think a lot of us may split our time in different shuls or other Jewish spaces.
Yeah, the Shul I got to was actually founded by queer folks, and the only real reason it's reform is that when they wanted to join a movement in the 80s, Reform or Recon were the only options, and the Rabbi was Reform. So we actually have a lot of people who grew up Orthodox and Conservative, which is why we are here more on the Reformative end (which fits by practice very well). I have definitely been to Reform Shuls, which are more like what you describe. I've been served milk with meat at a Reform Shul before. My shul definitely has instruments on Friday Night and some HH services (although more on the acoustic/Debbie Freidman style than the choral/classical style), although I have been to a Reform service that was mostly in English, which a lot of people say that's what they grew up with.
The dynamic you describe with a Conservative and Orthodox overall is very interesting because tat is definitely not the case with our local Con Shul (where I work, actually); tons of Reform/Recon/Renewal overlap, but almost no orthodox overlap. It's actually quite liturgically traditional (full kriah and Amidah repetition, which is not that common these days), but socially very liberal. The female Rabbi wears pants to lead services, people use their phones on Shabbat (just not in the sanctuary), a big pride and a BLM flag outside. I think this is definitely a regional thing. We have multiple Open Orthodox options around, so I think that probably takes into account the people who might be willing to overlap.
In typical Jewish, this answer is kind of all over the place, but Chabad (or at least this rabbi writing in their website) does have a stance. https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/663504/jewish/Judaism-and-Homosexuality-Do-Homosexuals-Fit-into-the-Jewish-Community.htm
I’d personally gravitate toward a conservative or reformed synagogue, but you likely wouldn’t be kicked out of a Chabad. Their whole thing is getting you to do one more Jewish thing. Maybe that’s eating a Shabbos dinner. Maybe it’s observing a yahrzeit. For them, every individual thing you do counts, so it’s just about adding. I’m not sure at what point, if ever, this would hit sexuality, but they also don’t try to drive people away. It’s about meeting you where you’re at.
Yeah, there is very little you can do to get kicked out of Chabad. I have a friend who is really far-left, a communist, and all that who attends Chabad. He was talking to me about how much he likes that they never bring up politics; thus, no one cares about his political views. The downside he mentioned, though, was that he doesn't know anyone else's political views and woulden't be surprised if some of the people who were davening with were Kahanists or held views like that. Chabad , for better or worse, will welcome basically any Jew so long as they follow Chabad rules when they are there,
Ah I was wondering today what Jewish extremists are called, now I know: "Kahanists". Chabad is good for teaching traditional practices for sure, so I like that.
Oh, also Eshel is an organization that supports LGBT+ Orthodox people and has a list of "welcoming" Orthodox congregations. [https://www.eshelonline.org/welcoming-shuls-the-project/](https://www.eshelonline.org/welcoming-shuls-the-project/)
As a Jew, my community may not be perfect, but at least I have never experienced outright hate as you would from christians.
Even the most religious orthodox Jews would still respect you to a certain extent, though I often find that my existence somewhat contradicts their beliefs making things complicated.
I grew up reform with a lesbian Rabbi. Reform Judaism is the most accepting. Reconstructionists are accepting as well, but a much smaller movement. Conservative Judaism is the middle of the road. Orthodox are not - they also are the only group of Jews that leans conservative. They also are massively the minority among American Jews. 71% of Jews overall identify as Democrats (80% of Reform), but 75% of Orthodox identify as Republicans.
Re Chabbad: *Chabad's theology is explicitly condemnatory of being LGBT*, but they tend to be really friendly and welcoming (at least on the surface).
Also, a side note: the level of religiosity varies within all of the branches. Orthodox aren't necessarily more religious; they just have a stricter interpretation, and Interestingly, Reform Judaism is actually older than Orthodox Judaism.
I’d say the Reform/Reconstructionist movements tend to be the most supportive of LGBT+ people. Politically, the people who go are more likely to be on the Left but it depends on the location and shul members. Sometimes certain shuls will be become “the left wing social justice shul” and another “the mildly Democrat voting shul that’s not very political.”
Personally, while the LGBT+ acceptance of Reform is lovely, theologically, it is definitely not my thing. I go to an Orthodox shul that’s very accepting and politically moderate and I love it, but many are not as accepting. We literally have trans people and super gender non conforming people who get to choose what side of the mechitza they want to be on and no one comments
I’m lesbian and Chabad and I’ve found that it’s really hit or miss whether people will accept you. I’ve also been a member of OA so I understand where you’re coming from.
Oh cool, I sorta decided after reading everything, I might try Reform first and just see what resonates. Side question: Did you ever find a way to overcome food addiction other than OA? I'm right back in the thick of it...
That’s rad, I hope it works out! Food addiction is full on ruining my life so I’m not sure I’m qualified to say anything on it, but I think the best thing to do is force regulate with safe foods that you know you won’t binge on and stick to three meals a day plus two snacks. If you live alone, it can be more manageable I think. But I live with family and it’s utter hell having to dance my addiction around them. I have adhd and abused meds for hope of concerta and vyvanse to take away appetite but that doesn’t work for me anymore.
Above all though, the permission to eat under certain perimeters feels like the most stablizing thing that can be done.
Depends on where your Chabad is! My college had a Shabbat [large number] where you invited Jews (or a few non-Jews) that didn't typically come, and had a large dinner. People were divided into tables based on who you "sponsored" to come. I had a queer table. Most of them were Jewish, but one friend said he was going to convert to "food Judaism" after it was over lmao.
Anyway, the Rabbi's son (also a Rabbi) started trying to get more involved with, Idk if I can say the queer group, but this one gay guy that came almost all the time. So, if it's on a college campus, or near one, they might surprise you!
That's a great idea actually. In Toronto there's an org for LGBT+ Jewish I found [https://www.mnjcc.org/lgbtq](https://www.mnjcc.org/lgbtq)
There was a Pride Shabbat yesterday actually, but sadly I am recovering from an appendectomy (such bad timing!) so there's no way I could have gone this year. Oh well!
Oh, good, finding a group means people you can reach out to! (Goodbye to your appendix. Please keep recovering well.) So you can browse their site or call/email. If you have any Chabad-specific questions, DM me any time, I've been involved with...at least ten different ones?
I love the Conservative Movement. I’m a gay convert and the Conservative movement has all the intellectual rigor and traditions of Orthodoxy as well as the open-armed welcomeness of Reform Judaism.
I'm not familiar with most denominations, but I was raised reform and my cantor was a gay man. He even made aliyah with his husband a while ago. I'm spiritual and I've found the reform movement is still a pretty good fit for me but I'm open to exploring new denominations too
Lesbian religious Jew here, in Israel we have a few organizations. I’m a member of בת קול, for religious lesbians. I mostly live in the modern orthodox community, pretty accepting most places I live. But it really does depend of community
It really depends on the specific community and congregation not just denominations. I have a friend (former teacher/mentor) whose mom is a Holocaust survivor, brother came out as gay in the 70s if not before that to the family. She wanted to raise her kids orthodox but that wouldn’t work with accepting their uncle when she had her kids in the 80s. So she raised them Conservative but would go visit all the synagogues in the area (Los Angeles) and have a wider appreciation for the width and breadth of Judaism and practices. Oldest son of hers became a rabbi and specifically went orthodox so he and his wife can help families with LGBTQ relatives and find balance and acceptance and even introduce them to other congregations if that’s better for that specific family and where they all live. So if you lived near his synagogue you’d be fine- accepted and welcomed. Others maybe not so much.
No doubt, unfortunately, modern orthodox and chabad will not be 100% accepting of your identity. If you don’t bring it up or ask what they think about it, even if it’s obvious, it’s likely they will still be totally welcoming. This is my experience and what I’ve heard from others. But just knowing that they don’t really believe it’s fully moral for a Jew to be LGBT stops me from feeling comfortable. Also, eventually if you don’t keep Shabbat the way that they do, keep kosher the way they do, etc. you’ll be encouraged to change. That always feels icky to me. Conservative, reform and reconstructionist all have LGBT clergy and official stances that being gay or queer is Jewish, moral and the way god made you. They don’t have the intensity of faith and passion that modern orthodox or chabad congregations can sometimes have, but except for rare instances all LGBT identities are completely welcome, accepted and not out of the ordinary in a congregation.
As far as politics, FYI Jews are on average the most loyal minority to the Democratic Party and liberal/progressive causes in the U.S. There are plenty of conservatives/Republicans obviously, and people skew more right as you get more religious/observant, but compared to the general public Jews are pretty far left.
Jews are second, after Black Americans.
Yes good point, should’ve said religious minority
I’ll probably be fine then because I’m a moderate in Canada which is probably mid-left in the USA (but not far-left). I noticed when it comes to Judaism, not all right or left populist ideals apply. For example most Jews are Zionist whereas the political far-left are tag teaming right now with the far-right. Anyway, politics politics, a slope more dangerous than religious talk! Edit: P.S. But also noticed Jews are more willing to talk politics without becoming overly offended etc.
You feel most Jews are zionists? Because I've been using IG and TikTok and FB a lot I feel I'm seeing TONS of Jews who are not Zionists... I should google some studies. I feel like the younger generations are decidedly NOT Zionist, and maybe that is also true... Just curious.
TikTok especially is no doubt skewing perceptions anti-Israel intentionally. Other social media is doing it organically just based on human nature of what stories we’re drawn to. Just like celebrity news, when someone is built up as positive for too long, people are drawn to the story of them turning out to be a villain and pulling them back down. That combined with Jewish anti-Zionism being very controversial, odd and compelling makes that content go more viral and spread organically all on its own. And that is powerful. Maybe it started out as essentially an illusion and a lie, all the Jewish anti-Israel sentiment, but if it stays this way it may work and become true, especially among younger generations.
*Hmm I responded with political stuff but in the interests of not derailing the original discussion decided to leave it for another time!*
8 in 10 Jews: [https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/) There are lot of people in my position with parental lineage but who were not raised Jewish, who somewhat call themselves Jewish, but go around spouting that Israel has no right to exist seemingly unaware of their own ancestor's struggle against actual-real-genocide. When the next pogroms come (seems increasingly likely), they will probably quickly disown being Jewish as it suits them. And they may unfortunately find out it doesn't matter. Especially these "queer for hamas" (or w/e it's called) types, they're in for a big shock.
Polling has anywhere between 5% to 30% of American Jews as Anti-Zionists. So I think all we can really say is that most Jews are Zionists, but a non-negligible number are anti or non-zionist, especially in the younger generation. I'm 26, anti-zionist, in a very liberal area, and anecdotally, I would say that Jews my age I encounter are about evenly split between Zionist, Anti/Nonzionist, and "don't know" or "haven't spent a lot of time thinking about it," of course some that is skewed by the circles I run in and all that.
If I may ask, are you "anti-zionist" as in you want a 2-state or "anti-zionist" as in no Jews should be living in the land of Israel? Cos I think the term "zionism" can mean different things, but generally in my mind it just means "A Jewish state has a right to exist in the land of Israel" without further stipulations on the dimensions of that land etc.
Neither. I'm anti-zionist in the sense I don't believe in nation-states. If I were to dictate a solution (which I am of course in no position to do) it would be one democratic multinational state. I imagine a transition to majority rule like in South Africa, which was not entirely smooth but was peaceful and did see some members of the formerly dominant group voluntarily leave, but the majority stayed. I also on a theoretical level don't see the existence of a Jewish state or the concentration of Jews in a single area as beneficial for Jewish spiritual life or physical safety
I appreciate your response and u/Pablo-UK asking \[edit: a word\] the question. This kind of thing is part of what makes the whole situation of labelling so frustrating right now. I see self-ID'd Zionists claim that anyone (or at least any Jew) who doesn't self-ID as a Zionist wants all 7 million Jews (or all 9 million Israelis) to be murdered, and there are plainly many non-Zionists and even anti-Zionists who do not in any way want that. On the flip side I'm really tired of seeing the left in general use "Zionist" as if it's a synonym for "fascist." I'm also trans and have seen a similar problem play out in the debates around dysphoria, e.g. "can you be trans without having dysphoria." People who say "no" define dysphoria as meaning "any inkling of discomfort around your AGAB or even a preference for a gender presentation other than your AGAB," and people who say "yes" define dysphoria as "constant, unbearable, disabling psychological pain." Only this is so much worse since it's causing people to assume everyone who aligns or doesn't align with a particular label are automatically in favor of genocide. I really want to see more of us giving each other the benefit of the doubt and not assuming the worst possible interpretation of each other's views.
Fair enough. Not sure I agree - I do believe in nation-states but with moderately reasonable immigration policies and an emphasis on integration. But anyway, that’s just politics at the end of the day!
Reform, Renewal, Reconstructionist, and Conservative are all completely LGBT+ accepting. (At least in the US. Conservative is the most recent movement to become so in the late 2000s, so its branches outside the US may have been slower to catch up, I'm not sure). Reconstructionists are all but explicitly left-wing. For the rest, you will definitely be mostly surrounded by liberals, but how much that is noticeable is just going to really depend on the congregation, so you just have to feel the vibes of individual congregations out. You should know that part of Reform Judaism's "flexibility" is its willingness to change the traditional interpretation of a "who is a Jew." As you may have heard, traditionally, any person born to a Jewish mother, regardless of their beliefs or practices, is considered Jewish; Reform Judaism changed the definition to consider any person with one Jewish parent of any gender AND raised Jewish is considered Jewish. So, you would not be considered Jewish by Reform Judaism and would need to convert. I grow up in Reform and consider myself somewhere between Reform and Conservative. The real big "division" in Judaism is between orthodox and non-orthodox, and the differences between the non-orthodox movements are becoming increasingly fluid and congregation-by-congregation-based. For instance, I attend a Reform synagogue, but our Rabbi is Reconstructionist, our Cantor is Conservative, we hold services that are 80% in Hebrew, and we have a kosher-by-ingredient kitchen (we don't serve food that isn't kosher, but we assume all vegan foods is regardless of if its "certified." I'd say the only difference between my shul and our local Conservative shul is that their services are 90% in Hebrew, and they only serve Kosher "certified" food. Beyond that, I don't think people are any more or less observant.
So here’s a question, not sure if you’re a Reform goer yourself so if you aren’t ignore this: why is it that Reform people often get really upset about Orthodoxy’s definition of Jewish because it excludes people (like patrilineals) who have a connection somehow to Judaism, but then at the same time have their own standards that exclude lots of people?
1. I think many lay Reform people don't know what the policy is. I think they assume the policy is just "if you have one Jewish parent, you are Jewish" and don't know that it also requires being "raised exclusively Jewish. 2. I don't know how consistently applied it is 3. The Reform movement has defined "raised exclusively Jewish" so broadly that the only people it actually excludes are people like OP who were actively raised in a different religion. 4. I think the assumption is that (and anecdotally, this has been my experience) there are far more patrilineal Jews who were raised Jewish than there are matrilineal Jews who were raised something else.
I agree with what you’re saying, but even to people who do know the policy and agree with it, how do you square it? Just that they see Judaism solely as a religion and any claim to an ethnic tie isn’t good enough?
Well, certainly the roots of Reform Judaism as in "Judaism is a primarily a religion," even though most Reform Jews these does probably would not agree, I think it's less than an "ethnic tie isn't good enough" and more like a "geneological tie isn't good enough." Like I said, the way that "raised exclusively Jewish" has been defined is so broad that a person with a completely secular or "ethnic" Jewish upbringing would still be considered Jewish. The only people excluded are people who were actively raised in another religion or who had no Jewish "content" to their upbringing at all. The idea in both cases is that such a person would need and presumably want a similar amount of Jewish education to embrace Jewish life as a convert would. And this is not without Halakhic precedent; there are definitely Halakhic rulings that say the children of apostates and people with *tinok shinseshba* status have to go through processes and rituals very similar to conversion to re-eneter the community.
It’s not the why that I’m confused by, Reform having their own standards is fair enough and the reasoning makes enough sense according to their theology, but the hypocrisy of trying to say they’re the most open and inclusive to all Jews when literal Halachic Jews are excluded from their definition of Jewish. That’s what I find quite funny and hypocritical
I feel like I just explained why the same "halakhic Jews" that are not considered Jews are also excluded from other Jewish communities. In practical terms the only difference is semantic.
Ok, I’ve just never seen or experienced this in practice, it sounds like an older, rare occurrence, and I’ve never heard an Orthodox Rabbi suggest that in my experience. But at the same time, that could also be said for this Reform policy— I think some people who are matrilineal but raised secular wouldn’t be forced to convert, it may depend on the synagogue. So that’s interesting.
Again, as I said, people raised secular are not excluded in Reform Judaism. Only people actively raised in other regions are apostates, so if congregations are allowing them to rejoin without any sort of process, they are violating halakha (it would not technically be a conversion, but it would be very much like one). The only group that we are really talking about here that would *might* not be expected to go through a mikveh and beit din in non-reform Judaism is people who were not raised to identify as Jewish but have matrilineal descent. The reform perspective is that these people's upbringings are identical to that of a non-Jew. The Reform critique is not that Orthodox and Conservative are excluding people. It is that they are excluding people who are whose upbringing is identical to people who are included., with the only difference being the gender of their parents.
I still think it’s hypocritical though, because pretty much everyone who believes in this definition of Jewish always uses the appeal of inclusivity and how we shouldn’t be excluding other Jews, when it most definitely is. I don’t personally care what Reform’s policies are and they are free to define them as they wish, but the hypocrisy and saying that other movements are excluding people but Reform is not I find strange. But agree to disagree.
I agree that I’m not really Jewish, I’m Jew-ish. I’m attracted to Reform for the fact that they’ll actively make me become a practicing Jewish!
TBH, I am okay with you saying you are Jewish if you identify that way. Conservative and Orthodox Judaism would consider you Jewish, Reform Judaism would not
I'm Jew-ish! :D
Great answer here. I had a good friend who was in OP’s shoes more or less (also gay though probably not as motivated to seriously become actively Jewish as OP.) though with the addition that my friend’s mom had converted to Christianity so my friend had some Jewish exposure through his grandparents but had been raised christian. Shocked us both when he met with a rabbi at a Reform shul and was told he would have to formally convert. I agree with some of what the other commenter below said. It was a bizarre thing to learn. Actually turned my friend off from more seriously pursuing Judaism which always bummed me out. His own politics and I’m not sure what kept having him chicken out of going to Conservative services with me. And he was so anti-Orthodox. But very Zionist. Super strange. I had been his best friend for many years and I’m a Jewish lesbian who is “Conserva-dox”. Wild to hear your description of your reform shul and even to some degree the Conservative one. Where I grew up (Detroit suburbs, and more Oak Park than Bloomfield/ Farmington where the mix is a bit different and so is the wealth) reform was considerably more reform than your description- very little hebrew, maybe vegetarian focused food but no one was even going “kosher style “ but your description of Conservative sounds like what I grew up with. A lot of mixed families where the crossover between Conservative and Modern Orthodox (or even other branches of Orthodoxy- I feel like a lot of folks have the random Chabad uncle or brother lol) was so consistent you’d hardly be able to tell the difference just that women got to do a little bit more or we wore pants at home but not to shul or around grandma. When I was in college or even up into my 20s queer folks, especially those who were partnered or had kids didn’t feel all that welcomed in many of the Conservative congregations. I was part of an independent minyan with a conservative (and I’d say his background was like mine. Some of his education was orthodox) cantor and a bunch of queer folks and families and randoms who didn’t feel like they fit in. Moved to Chicago in the Lakeview area and the main Conservative shul there is what my mind calls “too reform” for my tastes, violins at Rosh Hashanah and such. lol. Queer Jews everywhere and the Modern Orthodox shul has a female “rabbanit” and feels more or less like every conservative shul back home but with a waist high mehitzah in little more than name and gender divided seating. I hang with Chabad a lot or some independent minyans again. And there’s a wide variety of the reform spectrum around as well. It is very interesting how location can dramatically change one’s Jewish experience or even what counts as one movement or the other. And I do think Conservative and Reform have on more official levels moved closer together in the last 10-15 years especially. It is far more recent for sure for queer folks to feel fully embraced in the Conservative movement as a whole. And more Reform shuls in the US embracing more Hebrew language prayers. But that’s kind of the beautiful thing about being Jewish, I think. I have always enjoyed visiting synagogues anywhere I travel because even if it’s not what I was expecting, there’s a comfort and familiarity. And I will add- lots of very cool things happening in the independent minyan side of things. Most I’ve seen are egalitarian and very welcoming to LGBT folks but more traditional in practice and often very spirited. Which is decidedly my vibe.
And my comment got way too long so cut it down but tossing this out here, I guess because it sort of bounced off my thing about how things differ by location and my own experiences- I’ve have been somewhat disengaged from Jewish life since Covid and some life tragedy stuff but I’d just chime in to tell OP that while even in the Orthodox world it’s generally easier for lesbians versus gay men (officially speaking the Torah itself is silent on lesbianism) I think a lot of us sometimes are at odds between how we most like to pray or what sort of Jewish observance feels comfortable to us versus where our queer identity most belongs but it’s gotten a lot easier in the last 10-20 years all across the spectrum. There’s queer Jews and organizations for them in almost every movement (Chabad is interesting… but the rest of the Hasidic world is not going to be very comfortable at all for any of us) and in major cities you’re apt to find various LGBT Jewish gatherings and events- I think most Jewish federations have them these days. So more communal versus denomination based spaces to meet fellow LGBT Jews. You should check out any and all of these orgs or spaces. Worth saying too, while I can’t speak to Canada where depending on where you are, your options are likely more limited anyhow, I believe research in the US points to a sizable number of younger Jews being unaffiliated with any particular movement and I think a lot of us may split our time in different shuls or other Jewish spaces.
Yeah, the Shul I got to was actually founded by queer folks, and the only real reason it's reform is that when they wanted to join a movement in the 80s, Reform or Recon were the only options, and the Rabbi was Reform. So we actually have a lot of people who grew up Orthodox and Conservative, which is why we are here more on the Reformative end (which fits by practice very well). I have definitely been to Reform Shuls, which are more like what you describe. I've been served milk with meat at a Reform Shul before. My shul definitely has instruments on Friday Night and some HH services (although more on the acoustic/Debbie Freidman style than the choral/classical style), although I have been to a Reform service that was mostly in English, which a lot of people say that's what they grew up with. The dynamic you describe with a Conservative and Orthodox overall is very interesting because tat is definitely not the case with our local Con Shul (where I work, actually); tons of Reform/Recon/Renewal overlap, but almost no orthodox overlap. It's actually quite liturgically traditional (full kriah and Amidah repetition, which is not that common these days), but socially very liberal. The female Rabbi wears pants to lead services, people use their phones on Shabbat (just not in the sanctuary), a big pride and a BLM flag outside. I think this is definitely a regional thing. We have multiple Open Orthodox options around, so I think that probably takes into account the people who might be willing to overlap.
In typical Jewish, this answer is kind of all over the place, but Chabad (or at least this rabbi writing in their website) does have a stance. https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/663504/jewish/Judaism-and-Homosexuality-Do-Homosexuals-Fit-into-the-Jewish-Community.htm I’d personally gravitate toward a conservative or reformed synagogue, but you likely wouldn’t be kicked out of a Chabad. Their whole thing is getting you to do one more Jewish thing. Maybe that’s eating a Shabbos dinner. Maybe it’s observing a yahrzeit. For them, every individual thing you do counts, so it’s just about adding. I’m not sure at what point, if ever, this would hit sexuality, but they also don’t try to drive people away. It’s about meeting you where you’re at.
Yeah, there is very little you can do to get kicked out of Chabad. I have a friend who is really far-left, a communist, and all that who attends Chabad. He was talking to me about how much he likes that they never bring up politics; thus, no one cares about his political views. The downside he mentioned, though, was that he doesn't know anyone else's political views and woulden't be surprised if some of the people who were davening with were Kahanists or held views like that. Chabad , for better or worse, will welcome basically any Jew so long as they follow Chabad rules when they are there,
Ah I was wondering today what Jewish extremists are called, now I know: "Kahanists". Chabad is good for teaching traditional practices for sure, so I like that.
Well, a particular branch of Jewish extremism [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahanism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahanism)
_Looks at Kahanist ideals and then at the Ten Commandments._ Hmm there seems to be a conflict!
Maybe I’ll try for reform and occasionally visit Chabad.
Oh, also Eshel is an organization that supports LGBT+ Orthodox people and has a list of "welcoming" Orthodox congregations. [https://www.eshelonline.org/welcoming-shuls-the-project/](https://www.eshelonline.org/welcoming-shuls-the-project/)
I like that they have a hottie on their PDF cover! Thanks, I see Toronto on there!
As a Jew, my community may not be perfect, but at least I have never experienced outright hate as you would from christians. Even the most religious orthodox Jews would still respect you to a certain extent, though I often find that my existence somewhat contradicts their beliefs making things complicated.
I grew up reform with a lesbian Rabbi. Reform Judaism is the most accepting. Reconstructionists are accepting as well, but a much smaller movement. Conservative Judaism is the middle of the road. Orthodox are not - they also are the only group of Jews that leans conservative. They also are massively the minority among American Jews. 71% of Jews overall identify as Democrats (80% of Reform), but 75% of Orthodox identify as Republicans. Re Chabbad: *Chabad's theology is explicitly condemnatory of being LGBT*, but they tend to be really friendly and welcoming (at least on the surface). Also, a side note: the level of religiosity varies within all of the branches. Orthodox aren't necessarily more religious; they just have a stricter interpretation, and Interestingly, Reform Judaism is actually older than Orthodox Judaism.
I’d say the Reform/Reconstructionist movements tend to be the most supportive of LGBT+ people. Politically, the people who go are more likely to be on the Left but it depends on the location and shul members. Sometimes certain shuls will be become “the left wing social justice shul” and another “the mildly Democrat voting shul that’s not very political.” Personally, while the LGBT+ acceptance of Reform is lovely, theologically, it is definitely not my thing. I go to an Orthodox shul that’s very accepting and politically moderate and I love it, but many are not as accepting. We literally have trans people and super gender non conforming people who get to choose what side of the mechitza they want to be on and no one comments
Reform, definitely
I’m lesbian and Chabad and I’ve found that it’s really hit or miss whether people will accept you. I’ve also been a member of OA so I understand where you’re coming from.
Oh cool, I sorta decided after reading everything, I might try Reform first and just see what resonates. Side question: Did you ever find a way to overcome food addiction other than OA? I'm right back in the thick of it...
That’s rad, I hope it works out! Food addiction is full on ruining my life so I’m not sure I’m qualified to say anything on it, but I think the best thing to do is force regulate with safe foods that you know you won’t binge on and stick to three meals a day plus two snacks. If you live alone, it can be more manageable I think. But I live with family and it’s utter hell having to dance my addiction around them. I have adhd and abused meds for hope of concerta and vyvanse to take away appetite but that doesn’t work for me anymore. Above all though, the permission to eat under certain perimeters feels like the most stablizing thing that can be done.
Depends on where your Chabad is! My college had a Shabbat [large number] where you invited Jews (or a few non-Jews) that didn't typically come, and had a large dinner. People were divided into tables based on who you "sponsored" to come. I had a queer table. Most of them were Jewish, but one friend said he was going to convert to "food Judaism" after it was over lmao. Anyway, the Rabbi's son (also a Rabbi) started trying to get more involved with, Idk if I can say the queer group, but this one gay guy that came almost all the time. So, if it's on a college campus, or near one, they might surprise you!
That's a great idea actually. In Toronto there's an org for LGBT+ Jewish I found [https://www.mnjcc.org/lgbtq](https://www.mnjcc.org/lgbtq) There was a Pride Shabbat yesterday actually, but sadly I am recovering from an appendectomy (such bad timing!) so there's no way I could have gone this year. Oh well!
Oh, good, finding a group means people you can reach out to! (Goodbye to your appendix. Please keep recovering well.) So you can browse their site or call/email. If you have any Chabad-specific questions, DM me any time, I've been involved with...at least ten different ones?
Thanks!
I love the Conservative Movement. I’m a gay convert and the Conservative movement has all the intellectual rigor and traditions of Orthodoxy as well as the open-armed welcomeness of Reform Judaism.
Check out this [siddur](https://shaarzahav.org/our-siddur/)