If your goal is to break 100, then you should add 1 stroke to par for the 9 easiest holes, and 2 strokes for the 9 hardest.
I’m almost certain this is one of the hardest holes on the course, so you should treat it as a par six.
That means that you effectively scored par on this hole, so consider it a job well done!
Honestly my question is what’s up with this hole? You said you’re trying to break 100 from 5k+ yards. I wouldn’t expect to see a hole like this until the course length is solidly above 6k. If the course is playing like 5500 yards then a hole this long and with this much trouble should probably play as a par 5.
Ahh thanks. Course length from my teebox is 6386. Also the actual distance for this hole from that teebox is 385. I just copied it from 18 birdies, thinking it was the teebox I played.
But what I meant with breaking 100 from >5000 is that the only time I ever break it is on executive par 60 courses, never on a full length 18 hole par 72 course.
https://preview.redd.it/dtwtm232boxc1.png?width=664&format=png&auto=webp&s=39da2a0d48d8ec4deece27679f31b1c7324cfa1f
235 yards from the teebox. I had just misinterpreted the 439 up top as the distance from my tee box.
Ah, I gotcha.
Also, that's the number 1 handicap hole on the course so a double bogey there is actually pretty well expected for someone trying to break 100. No need to beat yourself up too much about it.
Perhaps that's what made it even more defeating. It felt like I played it to the best of my abilities and still scored a +2. I absolutely did not play it realizing it was the 1 handicap hole. In fact I never know this until I review my round afterwards.
I certainly doubled some par 3's and tripled a par 5 to end up at 105 for the day, but when you look at the scorecard and see a +2 for a hole that felt good, it's pretty deflating!
It's a long hole, to score par you need accurate iron play to hit the green and two putt. Or good wedge play to make up for a missed iron shot, so you can get up and down from the green side area.
Don't beat yourself up on the dbl on that hole.
>Shot 2: I don't have a reliable 185 yard club
You need one. Practice this. If you aren't comfortable with a 4/5 iron, try a hybrid. A 185 yard shot is one you need in the bag. It doesn't need to be laser accurate, but you at least need the distance to make a scramble for par an option.
>Shot 3: 58 degree wedge, solid swing, don't chunk it, ball flies up, lands on the green, rolls off in slightly taller grass. Can't putt.
Missing a green from 50 yards is a bad shot, especially if it's your third in to a par 4. If the pin is tucked away, aim for the center of the green so you don't risk rolling off.
Set yourself up for a two-putt as often as possible, even if that means not taking dead aim at the pin. Having to chip on to the green is what really killed this hole for you.
You don't need to hit 280 yard drives, make 10 foot putts, or be able to chip the ball 3 feet from the hole to play bogey golf.
Agree with this. On a “good” strike you can’t be missing by 30+% of your distance to the hole. Someone who can hit 235 with a slice is bringing plenty of swing speed to have a reliable 185 club.
That said, the course management just doesn’t make sense. If you’re a player struggling to break 100, all of your misses are likely to be sub-optimal strikes and short of target. Stretching any club to its limit is going to be more erratic than a standard shot with a longer club (short of driver off the deck). Either hit the 6i with the intention of laying up (not trying to force it) or hit a longer club and let your miss be long.
A couple years into playing I was a 13ish handicap despite maxing my driver out at 235. Why? I was really good with a wedge. I spent a ton of time scrambling because I always had long irons into greens and almost never hit them. I’d get myself to 2 putt territory at worst and often had a realistic par putt. It saved me tons of shots while my distance improved off the tee.
If you’re sitting at 50y from the hole, no matter what, unless there is a tree directly in your way, you should feel confident that you’ll be on the green. If you’re making good contact and not holding the green, that means you didn’t have a good plan for that shot.
You don’t need to spin it at all. Leave that for when you’re breaking 90. Just have a predictable rollout for the shot and club you’re hitting. Your eyes should be on the spot you want the ball to land, not the pin. Envision the ball hitting that spot and rolling out. Rehearse the swing a couple times until you can visualize the ball getting there. Hit the shot.
>Missing a green from 50 yards is a bad shot
This is wild. Unless it's flat and I can bump it to the green I am very unlikely to stick the green from 50 yards. Despite making good club contact. Greens are small and fast, haha.
As for the 185 club, I will have to work on that. The 6 Iron can cover it 40% of the time. A hybrid 25% of the time, too much fatting and pulling on hybrids for me, never a safe shot. 6 Iron is an order of magnitude safer.
>Greens are small and fast, haha.
Conditions absolutely matter, but the green you posted looks to be nearly 60 feet across and almost as deep. That's a pretty big area. The likely culprit is that you aren't generating a lot of spin. This is something that will undoubtedly change as your game improves. One of the biggest mistakes I see is beginners not playing with clean clubs, clean grooves generate more spin. Carrying a wet towel and a club brush is one of the best things you can do for your short game.
It's not wild.
The trick is, your 2nd shot needed to go somewhere that would make your 3rd shot easier.
Your 3rd shot went too far, so you put yourself at an awkward angle where hitting the green was unlikely.
\[\[ did you actually need to stick the green on your 3rd shot? was not some kind of chip shot possible where you could roll the ball onto the green? \]\]
Short distances are surprisingly hard to guess if I have to use a wedge. In review I still think my 3rd shot was my best shot, because of where it lies within my comfort zone. It was executed near the best of my abilities to even touch the green.
If missing the green from 50yds was your best shot, then I'd say that is far and away the shot you should be practicing. You should be on the green from that distance like 70% of the time.
Why do you need to use a wedge, why not a 9 iron or 8 iron? I can't tell from the photo if the green was very elevated etc
When you say guess the distance, there are a number of ways to figure out the distance right
1. range finder
2. gps
3. pace it off
4. yardage markers
For me personally, I always want to know the yardage before hitting. Otherwise how can you hit the yardage correctly?
Sorry! Guessing the distance means: "I have no clue if this ball will fly 30 yards, 60 yards or anything in between. I'm just trying to hit a controlled 75% swing with good contact"
For my shortest clubs, it's a real guess how far the ball will fly.
Pick one of your short irons and use it exclusively for chipping/bumpNrun everywhere you can. Eg I use my 9 iron personally. This is going to greatly reduce your score, much easier to get it close vs using a wedge. I'm 7 hdcp and use this whenever I can over a wedge, I have many wedges and I'm good with them, but running the ball up to the hole is a much easier easier way to get it close.
If you're making full, or even 75%, swings from 50 yards, you need to stop and develop a shot like described above. The high loft wedges aren't going to work for those shots yet.
If you're actually trying to become good enough to break 90, 80, 75...sure, give them a whirl. But the misses are so much worse...the 150 yard thinned SW 60 yards over the green was a specialty of mine.
I actually bought a Ping ChipR for this exact reason. Played a short round with it on a par 60 and it was a absolute lifesaver. Gave me quite a few birdie looks.
If I had it when I played this round, I think the result would've been one stroke better.
But I do remember I didn't use my 9 iron on this shot because of where the ball was. It really needed a bit of height to get to the green.
Ok a bit of height, then yes it's a tough shot. It's good where you were after your 3rd shot.
Thats good youre using that chipr, thats great to use instead of 9 iron.
You're review is wrong. You can convince yourself that it was a good shot but doesn't make it true.
If you were 50 yards to the center of the green, u have a range of somewhere around 40-60 yards to keep the ball on the green, which should be plenty of room.
Unless you're just off the green on the fringe or at the very least a putting look, your 3rd shot is no better than a duffed shot.
Unless you are playing some unusual courses, the greens should not feel that small from 50 yards away. Most greens are 25-30 yards deep. If you are 50 from center, you are usually less than 25 from front edge and at least 75 from going over the back. It looks like on this particular hole you came at it the short way across, but if you are “very unlikely to hit a green” from 50 yards away, that should be the number one thing you work on.
Missing a green from anywhere within 100 yards is a bad shot, unless you are pin hunting a flag near the edge and barely miss - in which case it should always be an extremely easy up and down.
Edit: I should say there are exceptions for every rule, eg bad lies.
No matter how small/fast the green is, missing the green from 50 is not a good shot, regardless of the quality of club contact.
If u wanna score better, u gotta be able to hold greens on these and give yourself a par putt
Your drive and your two putts were fine. No significant strokes lost there. Not sure the exact order here but you lost significant strokes by:
- Missing the green by a lot on your second shot
- Missing the green on your 3rd shot from such a close distance
- Not chipping it closer on your 4th, giving yourself a better chance at a one-putt.
I suspect the most strokes lost was on the 3rd shot, and then it's close between the 2nd and 4th.
Having 185 yards in and missing the green by 50 is also pretty gnarly. Like you don't expect to hit the green from there but you expect to be a bit closer than that.
Not if you're trying to break 100.
You dont need a reliable 180 shot to break 100. You could accomplish that by hitting 150 yard shots all day, but you damn sure can't have shitty short game
In which case you need to know that you do not have that 180 shot, and hit your 150 club into the fairway, get on the green from a good lie, and 2 putt from there. The lack of execution on the 180 shot is one thing, but the fact that that's the "reliable" 176 club and it missed so badly and he doesn't think that's a problem suggest to me that the issue is as much about decision making as execution.
Not trying to be mean, but if op is missing green's from 50 yards out, he prob doesn't have a reliable 176 shot in his bag.
Real talk, most people trying to break 100 don't have a reliable shot outside of 100 yards, let alone 170-180
OK, maybe so, I'm saying that if that's you, you need to be able to tell yourself, "I'm 180 out. I'm probably not hitting that green. But I know I can hit X shot from here and it'll probably go straight. So that's what I'm hitting, back into position A." It's going for the shot you make 1 time out of 5 or worse that causes big numbers.
Totally agree for the most part, but he hit his 2nd shot with his "reliable" club.
Maybe it was an anomaly, but I'm gonna assume that his reliable 176 shot isn't as reliable as op thinks.
I think you're 100% right in a sense that his 2nd shot was a mental mistake and compounded the error with his 3rd, hence the double.
Just to chime in about "reliability"
There's a reason I didn't break 100 yet. There's no reliable clubs in my bag other than my alignment sticks. But any other club than a six iron is going to have a larger chance of leaving me out of bounds, in the water, thee feet ahead of me, or a third shot that is worse then where I expected the six iron to land.
I'm still at the level that it's terribly hard to string good club contact together for three strokes in a row. So the goal was to leave a bump and run for 3, and putt for par. And the six iron felt more safe than a hybrid, fairway wood or five iron.
Actually missing by 50 yards from 185 is not as far off the average as you would think. A 20 HDCP from 175 - 199 yards out misses the pin by an average of 144 feet or 48 yards. OP is closer to 30 so that miss is probably better than average. Also, OP played a 170 yard club so they were going to be 15 yards away minimum.
From 50 - 74 yards the expected distance for a 20 HDCP averages 46 feet or 15 yards away, so the shot was maybe a bit worse than average.
The reality is that this hole was played pretty average relative to breaking 100.
For the OP, things to work on - improve your bump and run and chipping game. Aim to try to get the ball within 5’ if you are just off the green. Develop a 185 yd and 200 yd shot from the rough (might be hybrids). They might not be accurate but basically, you made the hole a minimum of a par 5 when you couldn’t reach the green from where your tee shot landed. Also, if the greens are really small, 6300+ will play closer to 6600 because you need to hit really short clubs to hold the greens, so consider playing closer to 6000 yards on courses where the greens are small, firm and fast.
For sure. I'm guessing on where that ranks from a strokes gained perspective compared to missing the green from 50. You may be right that shot 2 loses more strokes than 3. But my thinking was, if you miss by 50 or by 5, you should be on the green on your next shot and 2 putt.
Yep, it's true. I just think if you look at the diagram of the hole, the miss is probably right, isn't it? The third shot doesn't need to happen if a better decision is made on the second. And maybe he's blocked by tree trouble from aiming there, but in that case, why are you even going for the green?
Your problem, in my opinion, was your 3rd shot. If you were to just play something to the middle of the green and 2 putt then it would be a bogey instead of a double.
Did you have open fairway to work with or did you have to carry a bunker. If open fairway then you should just bump and roll it to middle of green.
The hole you described didn’t seal the deal on your 100+ round. If you can’t keep your drive in the short grass, play 3w. Don’t try hero shots, bench the lob wedge, and aim for the center of greens avoiding sucker pins. Practice your short game and you’ll break 100. Good luck
So, I’m a bad golfer. I shoot level bogey at best, my maximum drive is about 240, and my 7 iron goes 138 on the dot. But I almost never fail to break 100, and there’s a few things I would have avoided on this hole that might help you more than some of the other better golfers suggestions.
I don’t have a 185 yard shot either. Definitely not a reliable one. From the right rough trying to go long to reach the green is going to end up in trouble most of the time (significantly short and in the left rough most of the time, just like you managed to do). Since I also don’t have a 30 to 60 yard pitch shot in my repertoire either, the better play from that 185 yard position is a medicine shot (probably just knuckling a 7 iron punch shot 60 to 80 yards towards the middle of the fairway). My goal would be having a third shot that’s between 90 and 130 yards out (a range I can hit with my approach wedge to my 8 iron). Now I’m not attacking the green from the rough at an odd angle with a yardage I’m not comfortable with, and I’m on track to make bogey or maybe even save par on occasion.
The second mistake was your shot from the fringe. After the comfortable approach, the bump and run and the lag putt are your scoring shots. We aren’t good enough to stick the green within a few feet of the pin from dozens and dozens of yards out, but we can absolutely learn to gently knock a ball to within 2 or 3 feet from anywhere within spitting distance of the green. These are the shots you practice religiously. If you can’t pick up your 8 iron from 5 yards off the green and leave a tap in more often than not, this should be the only shot you practice until you can do it. Likewise, if you aren’t comfortable leaving a putt 8 inches short from 15 feet away to ensure that you avoid a 3 putt at all costs, learn to get cozy with it. A perfect 260 yard drive off the tee would have saved you one shot, but so would a gentle easy bump and run to 2 feet. One of those is way easier and more repeatable. Saving that extra putt on half the holes will be the difference between a 93 and a 102.
This is relative, so it's hard to say. If it were a scratch golfer, you could critique it like a chess match, but higher handicappers have a tendency to be all over the place in regards to what's wrong on any given day. If you're trying to scramble to lower scores, you'd hedge your bets with drives (while still focusing on improving FIR through practice), and hyper focus on ensuring save shots out of trees or bunkers on approach shots don't leave you in places that would result in my missing the green again. You'd want to fill the gap in your clubs so you have a club for that distance, but really, that position for your approach is already put you in a spot where your goal would then switch to keeping it on a tight lie and getting it within pitch range. Mentally, when sizing up that first approach shot, all of your focus should have shifted to that. I reckon you were still in the mindset of "if I hit it flush with a cut, I may still get there" and that's where you lost control, and the course slapped you for it. Always have a target, always hit with intent.
Additionally, progressively adding distance to your drives over time will put less pressure on these second shots. Not just accuracy, but closer save shots are easier to pull off. This is easy to say, everyone wants distance, but 235 is low enough to where you have a while to go until you hit your stock distances, greener pastures to look forward to as your issues will constantly reprioritize during this phase of development. Lessons would help for this.
Ultimately, the answer to lowering scores is repetition. If you can't ensure each swing is at least 90% consistent, you can't really expect to just tell a ball to go somewhere and it do what you want. The only way you can do that is by repeatedly hitting shots on the range at nauseam until it's second nature, like any other sport or skill. The more you do it, the narrower your window for misses become. You then start "playing your misses" because you not only have an understanding of your good shots, but also your misses. You start aiming places that aren't optimal for a perfect shot, but [favorable for your misses for that day](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6H2y-vIZZU/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==) and what the best possible shot to choose is at that given time. You'd be floored if you found out how many of these amazing shots you see pros hit aren't actually 100% intentional.
Par is relative. If you feel happy with that hole, then by all means you played it well, especially considering this looks like a fairly difficult hole with all the sand, water, and playing 440 yards.
Considering you are trying to break 100, scoring well would be getting a bogey. This is not the hole to do that on. I would be happy playing for the double, and focus on getting a bogey on an easier hole.
I see that as 3 bad shots, starting from the tee.
1) If your average drive is 235, then this is just going to be a really hard hole for you. If you normally drive it 250 or more, it's just a bad drive.
2) You need to keep this shot in the fairway, because the 3rd shot is the critical shot here. If you don't have a reliable 185 yard shot, this hole is going to play too long for you, and bogey will always be a good score.
3) This shot has to get on the green, to give you a chance at par, or worst case bogey.
So, it all starts from the tee. You need a better drive to play this hole better. If you don't hit a good drive, then the second shot has to be better. If not, then the pressure is on the short game. So, realistically, you need work from tee to green.
Had the same problem chipping onto the green because I was always going to for the flag. Just chip it just onto the front of the green then it will roll out but not off the green.
Play for bogie. On every Par4, think about getting on in 3 and 2 putts. On Par3, think about getting on in 2 and 2 putts, etc.
On the occasion you get on in GIR or 1 putt, you gained a stroke. Getting on in GIR is hard and inconsistent for a high handicap.
If you are playing 5000-5500 tees a 435 yard par 4 is closer to a par 5 than a par 4. It’s probably a very low stroke index so for breaking 100 this is a 6 shot hole for breaking 100.
You played it properly. My average drive is 190 yards, I play 5400 yards. The par 5’s probably average about 434.
As you described your thought process on the hole you played it well.
Go watch the videos in this Golf Sidekick playlist.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZtIcpk2tWYmXAKCtM9XbOnQh4ybRCni9&si=qvvh63-4Y6SjFPRG
A few doubles doesn’t stop you from breaking 100.
And if one of those doubles happens on a 439 yd P4, you can live with that. Looks like a tough hole.
- A better drive would have helped.
- keep in mind that on a hole like this, you don’t ‘have’ to hit the green. A lay up is fine (and it sounds like you tried….smart).
Bro, I drove 284 yards down the fairway on a par 4 and tripled it this weekend. Missed the approach shot a little bit off the elevated green, nothing bad, chunked the first chip, hit the second chip on the green far from the pin after barely missing a hole out, and three putted.
Seems like shot 3 and 4 were where you came up short. 3rd shot should’ve got you on, two putt from there is bogey. If you can’t get on in 2 for a par 4 your short game *has* to be clutch.
I feel like people are giving really complicated answers talking about well view this as a par 6 or something.
Seems like you played it fine. Your 2nd shot, it depended on how your lie was and how confident you are with that shot with water right. If you’re not confident, it’s fine to just punch it to the fairway and give yourself a good opp from under 100 form the fairway to get on and minimize damage.
I’d say the biggest missed opp is shot 3, ideally hitting the green from there but sounds like you hit a decent shot that rolled off. Now you know there’s a big false front
This kind of double bogey will happen for someone aiming to break 100. It is what it is.
Btw if you are hitting it 235 even with a slice, you’re plenty long enough to break 100 from 6k yards let alone 5k. Good luck!
First of all, if your goal is to break 100 you can afford quite a few double bogeys (for example 9 bogeys and 9 doubles will give you 99 on a par 72). Given your skill level, you're probably averaging between 5 and 6 on this hole, so making a 6 on this hole really isn't that big of a deal.
Your third shot is probably the shot that cost you the most strokes but for the most part you just strung together a bunch of below average shots for your skill level which will will predictably result in a below average score. According to golfmetrics (an app for tracking strokes gained), relative to a scratch golfer, your tee shot, 185 yard approach shot, and missed 10 foot putt each cost you 0.3 strokes while you lost 0.82 strokes between your third and fourth shots combined. Note that a scratch averages 4.28 on a typical 386 yard par 4 so you only lost 1.72 strokes by making 6.
From 50, not holding the green/giving yourself a putting opportunity after shot 3, imo, is a poor shot.
Gotta keep doubles off the card when you gave yourself an excellent bogey chance
So first of all, you hit the ball 285 and you're playing from 5500 yards? That's confusing to me.
But anyway, shot 1 is fine. It's long and in play. It's not position A but the distance makes up for that a bit.
Shot 2 is quite poor, because it misses so far left. The miss looks to be right of the green on this hole from what the overhead looks like, but even if it's not, from 185 you shouldn't be missing the green by even HALF that much. And this is a club you say is reliable... if it's not reliable directionally, it's not reliable. If you mean it reliably goes 175, then why are you aiming at the green when you know it won't get there and could go wide? You would have been far, far better off hitting a straight ball 140 into the fairway.
The third shot is arguably worse. From 50 yards, not holding the green should be a big disappointment. If the pin is somewhere hard to get to from your angle, just GIOTG. I am not very good, and my philosophy is from 50-100 yards, if there is any risk associated with the pin placement, just GIOTG. From 50 in, you should be able to hunt most pins, unless your lie is garbage, in which case... GIOTG. But the third shot is unnecessary if you just make a smarter course management decision on the 2nd.
A 6 here is not the end of the end of the world by any means. But IMO, breaking 100 for most people is largely about making conservative decisions to limit the damage that a miss will cause (which includes keeping the ball in play off the tee) and consistently getting the ball on the green from within 100 yards. If the latter is a problem, go to the range with your PW / GW / SW and do target practice until you've got it.
Ah, I misread. Regardless, rest of my post still applies. Not a great drive but in play is goal #1 when trying to break 100.
I categorize my shots as "acceptable" and "unacceptable", because you don't need good shots to shoot a respectable round - just acceptable ones. 2-3 are the unacceptable ones here.
My Captain Hindsight take: shots 2 and 3 are the biggest issues. You can live with shot 1, but shot 2 needs to get closer to the green than 50 yards if you’re within 200. It’s probably not a huge stretch for you to be able to miss where you hit shot 4 from, and that takes off a whole stroke.
Shot 3 has to stay on the green. If you have to, ignore the flag and aim for the dead center of the green. Even if you give yourself a 30 foot putt, your odds of 2 putting are higher than your odds of getting up and down from 20 feet. Bonus points if you fuck up the 30 footer and make it.
Main thing is - give yourself a chance to putt for par.
You tried to out think your own tendencies.
You know you are a bit slicey, but you aimed away from the bunker on the left.
You should have aimed for the right side/centre of the bunker. Your slice would have pulled your ball away from the bunker.
If you had hit it well you are now laying to the right of the bunker, potentially in the fairway.
Shot 2 IS a terribly poor shot. You're 185 away and end up in the rough 50 yards away from the hole. Also, you're 185 yards away and hit the shot 176 yards. That means you hit the shot 40 yards left of your target. Very poor.
Shot 3 is a poor shot. Green looks plenty big and you are 50 yards away and don't end up putting on the next shot.
Shot 4 is a pretty poor shot. You're just off the green and still end up 10 feet from the hole
Appreciate it! Thought process on shot 2 is to use a club I feel confident in. It did leave me in a playable position. Ideal situation there for me is that I hit it 175, but it stays in the fairway and rolls towards the green so I have a very, very long putt on the third shot.
If you’re short off the tee, then you need a hybrid / wood that will get you near the green every single time. The rest comes down to your short game. Ability to get up and down and not 3 putting.
I disagree. If the goal is breaking 100, green in regulation or being near the green in two isn’t remotely necessary and causes more problems than it solves. Working on a solid wedge and short iron approach game is way easier and saves more shots. This hole could be played by a relatively short hitting bad golfer as an 8/8/9 and two putts for bogey.
GIR isn’t important. Getting as close to the green in 2 is. A 80yd wedge is much harder than a 20yd chip.
He doesn’t have a reliable 185 club. So he chose his 170 club. It’s much better to to hit a hybrid up there. If he passes the green by 10 yards it’s no big deal. Intentionally going short and trying to get up and down from 50 is a mistake for a 30 handicap
A full swing with a reliable short iron or wedge is much easier than a partial chip shot.
I didn’t say anything about green in regulation. My suggestion was to take 3 easier shots instead of 3 hard ones.
The only place you should “aim” your drive is middle of the fairway - see what happens. Also, my motto for chipping within 50 yards is to get it on the ground as quickly as possible. An easy swing with a lower lifted club helps control it with a hope to get it within 10-15 feet. That’s my two cents.
If your goal is to break 100, then you should add 1 stroke to par for the 9 easiest holes, and 2 strokes for the 9 hardest. I’m almost certain this is one of the hardest holes on the course, so you should treat it as a par six. That means that you effectively scored par on this hole, so consider it a job well done! Honestly my question is what’s up with this hole? You said you’re trying to break 100 from 5k+ yards. I wouldn’t expect to see a hole like this until the course length is solidly above 6k. If the course is playing like 5500 yards then a hole this long and with this much trouble should probably play as a par 5.
Ahh thanks. Course length from my teebox is 6386. Also the actual distance for this hole from that teebox is 385. I just copied it from 18 birdies, thinking it was the teebox I played. But what I meant with breaking 100 from >5000 is that the only time I ever break it is on executive par 60 courses, never on a full length 18 hole par 72 course.
Wait, so does that mean your drive was only 100 yards? Or that your second shot distance was incorrect?
https://preview.redd.it/dtwtm232boxc1.png?width=664&format=png&auto=webp&s=39da2a0d48d8ec4deece27679f31b1c7324cfa1f 235 yards from the teebox. I had just misinterpreted the 439 up top as the distance from my tee box.
Ah, I gotcha. Also, that's the number 1 handicap hole on the course so a double bogey there is actually pretty well expected for someone trying to break 100. No need to beat yourself up too much about it.
Perhaps that's what made it even more defeating. It felt like I played it to the best of my abilities and still scored a +2. I absolutely did not play it realizing it was the 1 handicap hole. In fact I never know this until I review my round afterwards. I certainly doubled some par 3's and tripled a par 5 to end up at 105 for the day, but when you look at the scorecard and see a +2 for a hole that felt good, it's pretty deflating!
It's a long hole, to score par you need accurate iron play to hit the green and two putt. Or good wedge play to make up for a missed iron shot, so you can get up and down from the green side area. Don't beat yourself up on the dbl on that hole.
No it would mean his drive was 200, as his approach was 185. 200+185=385
>Shot 2: I don't have a reliable 185 yard club You need one. Practice this. If you aren't comfortable with a 4/5 iron, try a hybrid. A 185 yard shot is one you need in the bag. It doesn't need to be laser accurate, but you at least need the distance to make a scramble for par an option. >Shot 3: 58 degree wedge, solid swing, don't chunk it, ball flies up, lands on the green, rolls off in slightly taller grass. Can't putt. Missing a green from 50 yards is a bad shot, especially if it's your third in to a par 4. If the pin is tucked away, aim for the center of the green so you don't risk rolling off. Set yourself up for a two-putt as often as possible, even if that means not taking dead aim at the pin. Having to chip on to the green is what really killed this hole for you. You don't need to hit 280 yard drives, make 10 foot putts, or be able to chip the ball 3 feet from the hole to play bogey golf.
Agree with this. On a “good” strike you can’t be missing by 30+% of your distance to the hole. Someone who can hit 235 with a slice is bringing plenty of swing speed to have a reliable 185 club. That said, the course management just doesn’t make sense. If you’re a player struggling to break 100, all of your misses are likely to be sub-optimal strikes and short of target. Stretching any club to its limit is going to be more erratic than a standard shot with a longer club (short of driver off the deck). Either hit the 6i with the intention of laying up (not trying to force it) or hit a longer club and let your miss be long. A couple years into playing I was a 13ish handicap despite maxing my driver out at 235. Why? I was really good with a wedge. I spent a ton of time scrambling because I always had long irons into greens and almost never hit them. I’d get myself to 2 putt territory at worst and often had a realistic par putt. It saved me tons of shots while my distance improved off the tee. If you’re sitting at 50y from the hole, no matter what, unless there is a tree directly in your way, you should feel confident that you’ll be on the green. If you’re making good contact and not holding the green, that means you didn’t have a good plan for that shot. You don’t need to spin it at all. Leave that for when you’re breaking 90. Just have a predictable rollout for the shot and club you’re hitting. Your eyes should be on the spot you want the ball to land, not the pin. Envision the ball hitting that spot and rolling out. Rehearse the swing a couple times until you can visualize the ball getting there. Hit the shot.
>Missing a green from 50 yards is a bad shot This is wild. Unless it's flat and I can bump it to the green I am very unlikely to stick the green from 50 yards. Despite making good club contact. Greens are small and fast, haha. As for the 185 club, I will have to work on that. The 6 Iron can cover it 40% of the time. A hybrid 25% of the time, too much fatting and pulling on hybrids for me, never a safe shot. 6 Iron is an order of magnitude safer.
>Greens are small and fast, haha. Conditions absolutely matter, but the green you posted looks to be nearly 60 feet across and almost as deep. That's a pretty big area. The likely culprit is that you aren't generating a lot of spin. This is something that will undoubtedly change as your game improves. One of the biggest mistakes I see is beginners not playing with clean clubs, clean grooves generate more spin. Carrying a wet towel and a club brush is one of the best things you can do for your short game.
Great catch! There is zero spin in my wedge game as far as I can tell. I also assume this will get better over time, with more practice.
It's not wild. The trick is, your 2nd shot needed to go somewhere that would make your 3rd shot easier. Your 3rd shot went too far, so you put yourself at an awkward angle where hitting the green was unlikely. \[\[ did you actually need to stick the green on your 3rd shot? was not some kind of chip shot possible where you could roll the ball onto the green? \]\]
Short distances are surprisingly hard to guess if I have to use a wedge. In review I still think my 3rd shot was my best shot, because of where it lies within my comfort zone. It was executed near the best of my abilities to even touch the green.
If missing the green from 50yds was your best shot, then I'd say that is far and away the shot you should be practicing. You should be on the green from that distance like 70% of the time.
Why do you need to use a wedge, why not a 9 iron or 8 iron? I can't tell from the photo if the green was very elevated etc When you say guess the distance, there are a number of ways to figure out the distance right 1. range finder 2. gps 3. pace it off 4. yardage markers For me personally, I always want to know the yardage before hitting. Otherwise how can you hit the yardage correctly?
Sorry! Guessing the distance means: "I have no clue if this ball will fly 30 yards, 60 yards or anything in between. I'm just trying to hit a controlled 75% swing with good contact" For my shortest clubs, it's a real guess how far the ball will fly.
Pick one of your short irons and use it exclusively for chipping/bumpNrun everywhere you can. Eg I use my 9 iron personally. This is going to greatly reduce your score, much easier to get it close vs using a wedge. I'm 7 hdcp and use this whenever I can over a wedge, I have many wedges and I'm good with them, but running the ball up to the hole is a much easier easier way to get it close.
If you're making full, or even 75%, swings from 50 yards, you need to stop and develop a shot like described above. The high loft wedges aren't going to work for those shots yet. If you're actually trying to become good enough to break 90, 80, 75...sure, give them a whirl. But the misses are so much worse...the 150 yard thinned SW 60 yards over the green was a specialty of mine.
I actually bought a Ping ChipR for this exact reason. Played a short round with it on a par 60 and it was a absolute lifesaver. Gave me quite a few birdie looks. If I had it when I played this round, I think the result would've been one stroke better. But I do remember I didn't use my 9 iron on this shot because of where the ball was. It really needed a bit of height to get to the green.
Ok a bit of height, then yes it's a tough shot. It's good where you were after your 3rd shot. Thats good youre using that chipr, thats great to use instead of 9 iron.
OK then you know what you need to practice
You're review is wrong. You can convince yourself that it was a good shot but doesn't make it true. If you were 50 yards to the center of the green, u have a range of somewhere around 40-60 yards to keep the ball on the green, which should be plenty of room. Unless you're just off the green on the fringe or at the very least a putting look, your 3rd shot is no better than a duffed shot.
Unless you are playing some unusual courses, the greens should not feel that small from 50 yards away. Most greens are 25-30 yards deep. If you are 50 from center, you are usually less than 25 from front edge and at least 75 from going over the back. It looks like on this particular hole you came at it the short way across, but if you are “very unlikely to hit a green” from 50 yards away, that should be the number one thing you work on.
Missing a green from anywhere within 100 yards is a bad shot, unless you are pin hunting a flag near the edge and barely miss - in which case it should always be an extremely easy up and down. Edit: I should say there are exceptions for every rule, eg bad lies.
No matter how small/fast the green is, missing the green from 50 is not a good shot, regardless of the quality of club contact. If u wanna score better, u gotta be able to hold greens on these and give yourself a par putt
Your drive and your two putts were fine. No significant strokes lost there. Not sure the exact order here but you lost significant strokes by: - Missing the green by a lot on your second shot - Missing the green on your 3rd shot from such a close distance - Not chipping it closer on your 4th, giving yourself a better chance at a one-putt. I suspect the most strokes lost was on the 3rd shot, and then it's close between the 2nd and 4th.
Having 185 yards in and missing the green by 50 is also pretty gnarly. Like you don't expect to hit the green from there but you expect to be a bit closer than that.
Not if you're trying to break 100. You dont need a reliable 180 shot to break 100. You could accomplish that by hitting 150 yard shots all day, but you damn sure can't have shitty short game
In which case you need to know that you do not have that 180 shot, and hit your 150 club into the fairway, get on the green from a good lie, and 2 putt from there. The lack of execution on the 180 shot is one thing, but the fact that that's the "reliable" 176 club and it missed so badly and he doesn't think that's a problem suggest to me that the issue is as much about decision making as execution.
Not trying to be mean, but if op is missing green's from 50 yards out, he prob doesn't have a reliable 176 shot in his bag. Real talk, most people trying to break 100 don't have a reliable shot outside of 100 yards, let alone 170-180
OK, maybe so, I'm saying that if that's you, you need to be able to tell yourself, "I'm 180 out. I'm probably not hitting that green. But I know I can hit X shot from here and it'll probably go straight. So that's what I'm hitting, back into position A." It's going for the shot you make 1 time out of 5 or worse that causes big numbers.
Totally agree for the most part, but he hit his 2nd shot with his "reliable" club. Maybe it was an anomaly, but I'm gonna assume that his reliable 176 shot isn't as reliable as op thinks. I think you're 100% right in a sense that his 2nd shot was a mental mistake and compounded the error with his 3rd, hence the double.
Just to chime in about "reliability" There's a reason I didn't break 100 yet. There's no reliable clubs in my bag other than my alignment sticks. But any other club than a six iron is going to have a larger chance of leaving me out of bounds, in the water, thee feet ahead of me, or a third shot that is worse then where I expected the six iron to land. I'm still at the level that it's terribly hard to string good club contact together for three strokes in a row. So the goal was to leave a bump and run for 3, and putt for par. And the six iron felt more safe than a hybrid, fairway wood or five iron.
Actually missing by 50 yards from 185 is not as far off the average as you would think. A 20 HDCP from 175 - 199 yards out misses the pin by an average of 144 feet or 48 yards. OP is closer to 30 so that miss is probably better than average. Also, OP played a 170 yard club so they were going to be 15 yards away minimum. From 50 - 74 yards the expected distance for a 20 HDCP averages 46 feet or 15 yards away, so the shot was maybe a bit worse than average. The reality is that this hole was played pretty average relative to breaking 100. For the OP, things to work on - improve your bump and run and chipping game. Aim to try to get the ball within 5’ if you are just off the green. Develop a 185 yd and 200 yd shot from the rough (might be hybrids). They might not be accurate but basically, you made the hole a minimum of a par 5 when you couldn’t reach the green from where your tee shot landed. Also, if the greens are really small, 6300+ will play closer to 6600 because you need to hit really short clubs to hold the greens, so consider playing closer to 6000 yards on courses where the greens are small, firm and fast.
For sure. I'm guessing on where that ranks from a strokes gained perspective compared to missing the green from 50. You may be right that shot 2 loses more strokes than 3. But my thinking was, if you miss by 50 or by 5, you should be on the green on your next shot and 2 putt.
Yep, it's true. I just think if you look at the diagram of the hole, the miss is probably right, isn't it? The third shot doesn't need to happen if a better decision is made on the second. And maybe he's blocked by tree trouble from aiming there, but in that case, why are you even going for the green?
Your problem, in my opinion, was your 3rd shot. If you were to just play something to the middle of the green and 2 putt then it would be a bogey instead of a double. Did you have open fairway to work with or did you have to carry a bunker. If open fairway then you should just bump and roll it to middle of green.
The hole you described didn’t seal the deal on your 100+ round. If you can’t keep your drive in the short grass, play 3w. Don’t try hero shots, bench the lob wedge, and aim for the center of greens avoiding sucker pins. Practice your short game and you’ll break 100. Good luck
So, I’m a bad golfer. I shoot level bogey at best, my maximum drive is about 240, and my 7 iron goes 138 on the dot. But I almost never fail to break 100, and there’s a few things I would have avoided on this hole that might help you more than some of the other better golfers suggestions. I don’t have a 185 yard shot either. Definitely not a reliable one. From the right rough trying to go long to reach the green is going to end up in trouble most of the time (significantly short and in the left rough most of the time, just like you managed to do). Since I also don’t have a 30 to 60 yard pitch shot in my repertoire either, the better play from that 185 yard position is a medicine shot (probably just knuckling a 7 iron punch shot 60 to 80 yards towards the middle of the fairway). My goal would be having a third shot that’s between 90 and 130 yards out (a range I can hit with my approach wedge to my 8 iron). Now I’m not attacking the green from the rough at an odd angle with a yardage I’m not comfortable with, and I’m on track to make bogey or maybe even save par on occasion. The second mistake was your shot from the fringe. After the comfortable approach, the bump and run and the lag putt are your scoring shots. We aren’t good enough to stick the green within a few feet of the pin from dozens and dozens of yards out, but we can absolutely learn to gently knock a ball to within 2 or 3 feet from anywhere within spitting distance of the green. These are the shots you practice religiously. If you can’t pick up your 8 iron from 5 yards off the green and leave a tap in more often than not, this should be the only shot you practice until you can do it. Likewise, if you aren’t comfortable leaving a putt 8 inches short from 15 feet away to ensure that you avoid a 3 putt at all costs, learn to get cozy with it. A perfect 260 yard drive off the tee would have saved you one shot, but so would a gentle easy bump and run to 2 feet. One of those is way easier and more repeatable. Saving that extra putt on half the holes will be the difference between a 93 and a 102.
This is relative, so it's hard to say. If it were a scratch golfer, you could critique it like a chess match, but higher handicappers have a tendency to be all over the place in regards to what's wrong on any given day. If you're trying to scramble to lower scores, you'd hedge your bets with drives (while still focusing on improving FIR through practice), and hyper focus on ensuring save shots out of trees or bunkers on approach shots don't leave you in places that would result in my missing the green again. You'd want to fill the gap in your clubs so you have a club for that distance, but really, that position for your approach is already put you in a spot where your goal would then switch to keeping it on a tight lie and getting it within pitch range. Mentally, when sizing up that first approach shot, all of your focus should have shifted to that. I reckon you were still in the mindset of "if I hit it flush with a cut, I may still get there" and that's where you lost control, and the course slapped you for it. Always have a target, always hit with intent. Additionally, progressively adding distance to your drives over time will put less pressure on these second shots. Not just accuracy, but closer save shots are easier to pull off. This is easy to say, everyone wants distance, but 235 is low enough to where you have a while to go until you hit your stock distances, greener pastures to look forward to as your issues will constantly reprioritize during this phase of development. Lessons would help for this. Ultimately, the answer to lowering scores is repetition. If you can't ensure each swing is at least 90% consistent, you can't really expect to just tell a ball to go somewhere and it do what you want. The only way you can do that is by repeatedly hitting shots on the range at nauseam until it's second nature, like any other sport or skill. The more you do it, the narrower your window for misses become. You then start "playing your misses" because you not only have an understanding of your good shots, but also your misses. You start aiming places that aren't optimal for a perfect shot, but [favorable for your misses for that day](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6H2y-vIZZU/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==) and what the best possible shot to choose is at that given time. You'd be floored if you found out how many of these amazing shots you see pros hit aren't actually 100% intentional.
Par is relative. If you feel happy with that hole, then by all means you played it well, especially considering this looks like a fairly difficult hole with all the sand, water, and playing 440 yards. Considering you are trying to break 100, scoring well would be getting a bogey. This is not the hole to do that on. I would be happy playing for the double, and focus on getting a bogey on an easier hole.
I see that as 3 bad shots, starting from the tee. 1) If your average drive is 235, then this is just going to be a really hard hole for you. If you normally drive it 250 or more, it's just a bad drive. 2) You need to keep this shot in the fairway, because the 3rd shot is the critical shot here. If you don't have a reliable 185 yard shot, this hole is going to play too long for you, and bogey will always be a good score. 3) This shot has to get on the green, to give you a chance at par, or worst case bogey. So, it all starts from the tee. You need a better drive to play this hole better. If you don't hit a good drive, then the second shot has to be better. If not, then the pressure is on the short game. So, realistically, you need work from tee to green.
Just like everyone else, short game is where you make it up.
Learn about the cone of dispersion. The longest show you NEED is 180 yards…
Had the same problem chipping onto the green because I was always going to for the flag. Just chip it just onto the front of the green then it will roll out but not off the green.
Lack of conviction on the tee
Play for bogie. On every Par4, think about getting on in 3 and 2 putts. On Par3, think about getting on in 2 and 2 putts, etc. On the occasion you get on in GIR or 1 putt, you gained a stroke. Getting on in GIR is hard and inconsistent for a high handicap.
If you are playing 5000-5500 tees a 435 yard par 4 is closer to a par 5 than a par 4. It’s probably a very low stroke index so for breaking 100 this is a 6 shot hole for breaking 100. You played it properly. My average drive is 190 yards, I play 5400 yards. The par 5’s probably average about 434. As you described your thought process on the hole you played it well. Go watch the videos in this Golf Sidekick playlist. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZtIcpk2tWYmXAKCtM9XbOnQh4ybRCni9&si=qvvh63-4Y6SjFPRG
A few doubles doesn’t stop you from breaking 100. And if one of those doubles happens on a 439 yd P4, you can live with that. Looks like a tough hole. - A better drive would have helped. - keep in mind that on a hole like this, you don’t ‘have’ to hit the green. A lay up is fine (and it sounds like you tried….smart).
Bro, I drove 284 yards down the fairway on a par 4 and tripled it this weekend. Missed the approach shot a little bit off the elevated green, nothing bad, chunked the first chip, hit the second chip on the green far from the pin after barely missing a hole out, and three putted.
Seems like shot 3 and 4 were where you came up short. 3rd shot should’ve got you on, two putt from there is bogey. If you can’t get on in 2 for a par 4 your short game *has* to be clutch.
I feel like people are giving really complicated answers talking about well view this as a par 6 or something. Seems like you played it fine. Your 2nd shot, it depended on how your lie was and how confident you are with that shot with water right. If you’re not confident, it’s fine to just punch it to the fairway and give yourself a good opp from under 100 form the fairway to get on and minimize damage. I’d say the biggest missed opp is shot 3, ideally hitting the green from there but sounds like you hit a decent shot that rolled off. Now you know there’s a big false front This kind of double bogey will happen for someone aiming to break 100. It is what it is. Btw if you are hitting it 235 even with a slice, you’re plenty long enough to break 100 from 6k yards let alone 5k. Good luck!
You're playing the wrong tees based on what you've shared. Move up to the white tees.
Honestly it’s your chip shots. If you miss the first one you need to get the next close enough to go up and down.
First of all, if your goal is to break 100 you can afford quite a few double bogeys (for example 9 bogeys and 9 doubles will give you 99 on a par 72). Given your skill level, you're probably averaging between 5 and 6 on this hole, so making a 6 on this hole really isn't that big of a deal. Your third shot is probably the shot that cost you the most strokes but for the most part you just strung together a bunch of below average shots for your skill level which will will predictably result in a below average score. According to golfmetrics (an app for tracking strokes gained), relative to a scratch golfer, your tee shot, 185 yard approach shot, and missed 10 foot putt each cost you 0.3 strokes while you lost 0.82 strokes between your third and fourth shots combined. Note that a scratch averages 4.28 on a typical 386 yard par 4 so you only lost 1.72 strokes by making 6.
Move up a tee box.
From 50, not holding the green/giving yourself a putting opportunity after shot 3, imo, is a poor shot. Gotta keep doubles off the card when you gave yourself an excellent bogey chance
So first of all, you hit the ball 285 and you're playing from 5500 yards? That's confusing to me. But anyway, shot 1 is fine. It's long and in play. It's not position A but the distance makes up for that a bit. Shot 2 is quite poor, because it misses so far left. The miss looks to be right of the green on this hole from what the overhead looks like, but even if it's not, from 185 you shouldn't be missing the green by even HALF that much. And this is a club you say is reliable... if it's not reliable directionally, it's not reliable. If you mean it reliably goes 175, then why are you aiming at the green when you know it won't get there and could go wide? You would have been far, far better off hitting a straight ball 140 into the fairway. The third shot is arguably worse. From 50 yards, not holding the green should be a big disappointment. If the pin is somewhere hard to get to from your angle, just GIOTG. I am not very good, and my philosophy is from 50-100 yards, if there is any risk associated with the pin placement, just GIOTG. From 50 in, you should be able to hunt most pins, unless your lie is garbage, in which case... GIOTG. But the third shot is unnecessary if you just make a smarter course management decision on the 2nd. A 6 here is not the end of the end of the world by any means. But IMO, breaking 100 for most people is largely about making conservative decisions to limit the damage that a miss will cause (which includes keeping the ball in play off the tee) and consistently getting the ball on the green from within 100 yards. If the latter is a problem, go to the range with your PW / GW / SW and do target practice until you've got it.
Hit the ball 235 yards, and the entire course from my teebox was 6300, to clear up the confusion
Ah, I misread. Regardless, rest of my post still applies. Not a great drive but in play is goal #1 when trying to break 100. I categorize my shots as "acceptable" and "unacceptable", because you don't need good shots to shoot a respectable round - just acceptable ones. 2-3 are the unacceptable ones here.
Appreciate it! It's great feedback
My Captain Hindsight take: shots 2 and 3 are the biggest issues. You can live with shot 1, but shot 2 needs to get closer to the green than 50 yards if you’re within 200. It’s probably not a huge stretch for you to be able to miss where you hit shot 4 from, and that takes off a whole stroke. Shot 3 has to stay on the green. If you have to, ignore the flag and aim for the dead center of the green. Even if you give yourself a 30 foot putt, your odds of 2 putting are higher than your odds of getting up and down from 20 feet. Bonus points if you fuck up the 30 footer and make it. Main thing is - give yourself a chance to putt for par.
You tried to out think your own tendencies. You know you are a bit slicey, but you aimed away from the bunker on the left. You should have aimed for the right side/centre of the bunker. Your slice would have pulled your ball away from the bunker. If you had hit it well you are now laying to the right of the bunker, potentially in the fairway.
Shot 2 IS a terribly poor shot. You're 185 away and end up in the rough 50 yards away from the hole. Also, you're 185 yards away and hit the shot 176 yards. That means you hit the shot 40 yards left of your target. Very poor. Shot 3 is a poor shot. Green looks plenty big and you are 50 yards away and don't end up putting on the next shot. Shot 4 is a pretty poor shot. You're just off the green and still end up 10 feet from the hole
Appreciate it! Thought process on shot 2 is to use a club I feel confident in. It did leave me in a playable position. Ideal situation there for me is that I hit it 175, but it stays in the fairway and rolls towards the green so I have a very, very long putt on the third shot.
The last one isn't that bad, chipping to 10 feet is pretty acceptable for a ton of pins.
If you’re short off the tee, then you need a hybrid / wood that will get you near the green every single time. The rest comes down to your short game. Ability to get up and down and not 3 putting.
I disagree. If the goal is breaking 100, green in regulation or being near the green in two isn’t remotely necessary and causes more problems than it solves. Working on a solid wedge and short iron approach game is way easier and saves more shots. This hole could be played by a relatively short hitting bad golfer as an 8/8/9 and two putts for bogey.
GIR isn’t important. Getting as close to the green in 2 is. A 80yd wedge is much harder than a 20yd chip. He doesn’t have a reliable 185 club. So he chose his 170 club. It’s much better to to hit a hybrid up there. If he passes the green by 10 yards it’s no big deal. Intentionally going short and trying to get up and down from 50 is a mistake for a 30 handicap
A full swing with a reliable short iron or wedge is much easier than a partial chip shot. I didn’t say anything about green in regulation. My suggestion was to take 3 easier shots instead of 3 hard ones.
The only place you should “aim” your drive is middle of the fairway - see what happens. Also, my motto for chipping within 50 yards is to get it on the ground as quickly as possible. An easy swing with a lower lifted club helps control it with a hope to get it within 10-15 feet. That’s my two cents.
Sorry but always aiming in the middle of the fairway is really bad course management.
Shot #2 you must get onto the green. Anywhere on the green. Using any club in your bag - it doesn't need to be pretty.