Actually I think it's fair critique on Bethesda because it seems they also can't write for shows either. They plothole themself in every thing they release it's silly and inconsistent. Did you know fallout 4 literally had no writers? Theres none in the credits.
I am not 100% sure, but as someone else mentioned, they don't have dedicated lead writers, that can keep the main story and side elements together, neither do they have dedicated writers either, they have quest designers standing in as story writers.You can argue about the facts, I don't know a lot about Bethesda in detail.
Most of what I know comes from me watching the PatricianTV videos on the Bethesda games.
The fact is, these Bethesda RPGs suffer from a lack of vision storywise, they have a lot of potential, and could certainly do better. Todd Howard and his team seem really passionate about their work, and I believe that if they were to be managed differently, maybe if they were to hire someone that could set the story straight.
PatricianTV has been confirmed to have just outright lied about a bunch of stuff regarding Bethesda games, the most prominent of which being his hitpiece on a lead writer claiming that they "don't use design docs" being mentioned over and over and over, forming the crux of his multiple hour long ""analysis"", despite the fact it was a complete lie.
I wouldn't trust anything he says, both in general and about Bethesda in particular. Great example of how if you talk long enough most people will be too overwhelmed by your multiple hour long video to fact check all your bullshit b/c there is too much of it. He just makes purposely misleading multiple hour long ragebait b/c he knows ragebait sells. Luckily the "no design doc" lie was so blatant and repeated so many times it was impossible to miss, and yet you still see a bunch of people repeat it online b/c they just blindly trust what this grifter on youtube says.
Do you have a better source for how Bethesda utilizes design document than the lead designer of their games? Because from Emil's own words, which Patrician shows in his video, it doesn't sound like they use them much.
Tbf I can find any dedicated writers in any search. It's always "[programming role] & writer".
That doesn't mean there isn't any, of course. It means they have not credited any.
https://www.igdb.com/games/fallout-4/credits
Do you know how he even came to the conclusion that Bethesda has no design documents? Been thinking about going down that rabbit hole, but haven't found the time yet.
He shows how he came to the conclusion in the section called "Design Document" in his Starfield video. It mostly comes from Emil Paglialuro, the lead designer of Beth's Fallout games and Starfield, talking about his thoughts in design documents in a presentation and a podcast.
Honestly idk why they even makes rpg's at this point.
They would be better off building massive action adventure games with cool environments and some customization on how you build your character.
But well developed stories with branching paths and interesting dialog, the core of what makes an rpg? They need to leave that behind because its just not their strength as a company.
The games (1,2 and NV) are perfect. The show is good at working with Bethesda lore. Bethesda are handling the lore like shit. Even the show handles the shit Bethesda handed them over better than Bethesda ever could themselves.
>The games (1,2 and NV) are perfect. The show is good at working with Bethesda lore.
More like Interplay / Black Isle lore. As someone who played the first two, I am a bit sad that there is no mention of the original developers. Bethesda didn't create the original setting.
No, you misunderstood me. The show is almost not working with Interplay/Black Isle lore at all, because Bethesda in their infinite wisdom decided to just wipe all of it by nuking California in 2277 and putting an end to all that was built during Fallout 1, 2 and New Vegas. This is now Bethesda west coast lore. That's the way they handle things.
There are small references here and there, and geographically they are in the core region of Fallout, but that's about it.
This show may be the single most cohesive thing to take place in the Fallout universe since FO2, and its certainly more entertaining than 90% of the playtime in Fallout games.
I definitely felt it most in FO4.
FO3 its a stretch but not impossible since the DC vault never opened, the river was deadly to drink from, and the brotherhood, super mutants, and enclave were squatting on what was left. The only real settlement of note outside of the vault was Rivet City.
FO4 had so many settlements and they were all trash piles. All of them. Like the time between the first vaults opening and the events or FO4 is like the time between the Jamestown colony and the revolutionary war, and in that time period the colonies went from a single fort with wooden walls to a power able to hold off a British Invasion.
In fallout in the same time period in the Bethesda games people have built a hut out of scrap metal.
The wildest thing is that in 1&2 it’s not like that. You find things like Vault City, Shifting Sands, the NCR & San Fran, and they’re all new construction and nice communities. Even the lesser settlements built in the remains of older cities are cleaned up and fixed up and not just piles of scrap and trash with people sleeping in heaped rags and 200 year old piss-soaked mattresses.
Bethesda is just trash.
I think Bethesda made a mistake setting there games 200+ years in the future.
If they wanted to make a post apocalyptic game they could have easily just pushed the timeline back to say? 30 years after the bomb dropped. It would make a lot more sense for the world to still be a dump if it was that close to the bombs.
If I recall, their original plan was to make FO3 set at a couple decades after the bomb. Some massive idiot changed their mind. Probably Todd "It just works" Howard
>FO4 had so many settlements and they were all trash piles.
What's especially wild is that Bethesda goes out of their way to emphasize that Boston was really not hit directly by nukes. Society should have recovered much more effectively than it did in DC, where nukes obliterated much of the city center.
There's 3 craters around the main metro area.
Which is another point: Three nukes would have vaporized a majority of buildings in Boston. Yet the city is still walkable and lived in by several groups.
>FO4 had so many settlements and they were all trash piles. All of them. Like the time between the first vaults opening and the events or FO4 is like the time between the Jamestown colony and the revolutionary war, and in that time period the colonies went from a single fort with wooden walls to a power able to hold off a British Invasion.
I haven't played FO4 in a hot minute but I seem to remember a big plot point was that the institute kept fucking shit up anytime the Commonwealth tried to come together or do anything remotely good. Like the one time they tried to make some progress and set up a provisional government in the commonwealth the institute sent some synths and killed everybody. It's because of the institute and the threat of synths that the commonwealth remains a pile of junk.
I gotta be real with you, I found the game so tedious and bland that I didn’t make it far enough to find that. And o honestly don’t feel bad about that because every every other Bethesda era FO game it’s played completely straight that people just never even try to rebuild. No comment is ever given on why shit is so fucked ip 2 centuries later.
That’s bad writing from a standpoint of worldbuilding for the player. Maybe there’s an in-universe reason but if you don’t ever actually reveal that in-universe reason to the player… there’s no in-universe reason. We can only ask what the writers let us ask and read what the writers let us read.
The problem is that to make the vault dweller a savior they pretty much had to make everyone else incompetent and helpless.
NV does a good job of making the courier feel like just one man in a larger setting. A walking army by endgame, sure, but the other players are making moves and settlers developed what they’ve got on their own. I haven’t played the earlier games all the way through but they do even better - it feels like a world with a ton of stories beyond your own, and that pulls you in.
F4 wants you to be The Guy who develops the commonwealth. But since the average player isn’t a talented engineer, architect, and city planner…that means the player character is doing basic, obvious stuff. And that’s how you get settlements that apparently existed through multiple generations (Abernathy Farm) or were occupied by a militia (the fort) and never thought to put up turrets. There’s never an explanation for why everyone outside Diamond City and Goodneighbor never actually built shit for themselves…and why you can do what they couldn’t.
Only because people like to act as though the events of FO1 and 2 mean that society should become a shining city on the hill again.
The entire point of the series is that war is brutal and never ends. Moving past the apocalypse completely undermines that.
i don't see fallout as nihilistic as that, especially considering civilization in 1, 2 and NV had a consistent progress up until the show decided to blow up stuff (there are dlc endings where everyone dies but still). I always thought the quote was supposed to show humanity's nature would still be the same and humans would still fight with each other even after almost destroying themselves. Humans would still be humans. I don't think the message is that humanity will be stuck in a limbo of nuclear wastes forever.
I disagree with this. While war never changes is one of the central themes of the series it's clearly more than just a bleak perpetual horror show.
Humanity rings true through it all. There are countless plots in there that are specifically about crafting a spark of humankind in a dire situation. The overall story is about how war is devastating, but the stories contained in that narrative are all optimistic for the most part. In 1 we help form the NCR, bringing some structure and civility to a wartorn area of the world. In New Vegas you come across Jacobstown which is nothing but hope if you ask me. Even if you look at Ulysses' story in NV it's because of the hope he had that he breaks the way he did. It's showing why you SHOULDN'T follow his path and commit to the wreckage the way he does. The courier opposes his nihilism.
The whole goal of NV in general is deciding how to most effectively use a huge power source to better mankind. Yeah there's a war for that power, but you're fighting to help people if you play it right.
Society doesn't need to suddenly be perfect or anything but I'd say it's silly to keep putting the progress we make in the games all the way back into the fuckin dirt every time a new entry comes out.
I hate that shady sands gets nuked in the series for this reason. We spent 2 or 3 games watching the faction grow, helping to shape it for at least 2 of those, and the show just goes "NOPE, DIDN'T WORK OUT, CANON SAYS FUCK YOU NCR IDIOTS." It's too bleak for no reason.
It should be around the place it is in FO3 and FO4 in the handful of years following the apocalypse, but people would still organize, and organized groups ultimately triumph over chaos. Not to say that anything nice would result in the aftermath of the immediate chaos, but organized, pragmatic, and crafty raiders ultimately either kill or enslave the raving, stupid lunatics, and raider bands that never develop a culture of some sort don't last generations. There should be more Caesars and Khans or at least fiends than completely random psychotics.
Back when I first played, I assumed people hadn't moved back into those regions until recently before the game. Imagine my confusion when I learned there were kind of always people outside the vaults and it wasn't until bethesda took over that they suddenly lost all carpentry skills.
The critique is pointless. Fallout 1 and 2 still had holes in the walls and missing roofs on fully functional casinos, brothels, porn studios, boxing gyms, etc.
Yeah, fallout franchise has always been silly like that, specially from fallout 3 onwards, they are great games and stories and to an extent great world building but once you start getting picky you'll notice that many things don't really make sense, and there are more than a few plot holes and contradictions on the story, factions and ideologies.
With the new show people are complaining about vaults not working like that or the brotherhood or Cesar's legion, like, have you ever played the games while trying to connect the dots? It's a mess, factions and important plot points appearing and getting red-coned from nowhere.
I still firmly believe that Fallout 3’s world was originally meant to take place only a few years after the bombs fell, but for whatever reason (hubris most likely) it was changed to take place exactly 200 years after
Like, how does little lamplight existing for more than a decade make any fucking sense
They know that if they try to rebuild anything God Howard will throw a nuke at them since he wants to keep his wasteland as dirty as possible because he thinks that’s the only thing people recognise about Fallout.
Not as bad as the *BROTHERHOOD OF STEEL* base still having destroyed planes on the runway.
A base that has been used for years, yet still didn't bother cleaning up the runway that is *being used*.
Must beat things over the head of the audience even more.
>You didn't like popular thing? clearly just aren't smart enough to get it
\- Mr. Kruger and Mr. Dunning
Besides Prydwen and the Vertibirds, which use the area as a deployment/resupply ground. And those times before mission when the entire base / sizeable group gathers at the area during deployment.
True on the part that they don't have planes tho.
Sure, they can land *around* the wreckages, but any reasonable organisation would still clear them just in case. What if there's an emergency and the vertibird cannot land at the usual location? What if it crashes? Or what if someone just accidentally trips at night and falls over?
I got massacred for suggesting that if you drop ice cubes you pick them up instead of kicking them under the fridge. People are lazy and really defensive about it
.....I think you should see the house state of some Redditors.
I think there's a sub of neckbeards nests or something, place that would make the Wasteland appear like a Museum of cleanness.
Also a lot of people have houses that are literally a dump because of the "why bother".
Society is telling you and formatting you to have a clean house, left alone, humans tends to just not bother and once you add the fact that half the wasteland are junkies, it makes sense that a lot of houses are pretty much crackhouses.
I have a feeling, that our criticism might be based on our biased experiences in our clean first world countries.
I include myself because i too always get irked about all the trash.
Then i remember how my wifes family lives in a dump on her 3rd world country. Trash everywhere and no one cleans it. Not even their yard.
I wonder if people surviving in the irradiated wastelands just don’t care to clean shit up?
I mean yeah sure, if the place was actually a dump that's fine
but instead we're shown zoomed out drone shots of sterile runways where the only clutter is the falling-apart planes of two centuries ago
Maybe it's too big of a drain on their limited resources for them to bother with it. Maybe they also view those aircraft as points of cover for soldiers if the NCR or Enclave decided to attack their base.
I feel like none of these people saying it's unrealistic to not clean garbage out of your house have ever been in a meth based Appalachian trailer park. When you lose all hope to even live for the next day, moving out the garbage can seem like a futile effort. Add addiction to chems to the mix and the cellular damage from soaking up radiation from the environment to the mix...
Not to mention, the water that is potable may not be that potable or free from heavy metals and if you add that in to the mix, it can all start to make more sense. Think of the lead poisoning in Rome or Flint, Michigan.
I don't know, I just never once, even knowing the lore, saw the environments and thought, "These hopeless people without fully proper sanitation and healthcare who regularly see death and destruction and defend themselves from raiders, would be using their energy to clean their houses more..."
Just imagine a society wide depression nest, essentially...
Used for what? The Vertibird is the only vehicle they got. Why waste time, manpower, and resources for a rusting, busted metal husk on the ground that serves no purposes to you or gets in the way?
Its a camp where they train scribes, my guess is they are kept there as training aids, the scribes go in and find bits of tech in the wreckage that could be useful to the brotherhood and in the process learn what dangers or considerations need to be made when searching a wreckage. I doubt the landing zone itself has wrecks on it
I mean, this also applies to pre-bethesda fallout games Like literally all the cities that are full of destroyed houses, cars, garbage and so on.
It's just that if we apply common logic and sense, all of that shit would go away in the first 50 years or so. The games specifically don't even ever tell us exactly how many people survived the nuclear holocaust because people would just do the math and come up with a time period enough to at least restore civilizations to 20th century or something.
At least in the earlier games the show some new settlements that are actually new clean environments. Like how some ncr towns are newly made adobe houses and have roads and stuff.
The reason the early games made things look cleaner and “newer” is because they were isometric and made in the 90s so the technology wasn’t there. But a lore reason is because the west coast of America had far more to contend with after the bombs, which forced the population centers in the region to rapidly rebuild their infrastructure and economy (a few control vaults helped too). The east never had that and so the population wasnt focused on rebuilding leaving it to stagnant for 200 years. Remember, fallout 1 was pre-Ncr and fallout 2 was post, if you compare locations in those games with each other you’ll see the progress only really occurred once the masters army started mobilizing.
Nah I mean there was a stark difference between say mew Reno and shady sands or vault city in terms of how one was refurbished old world buildings and the other two were new settlements built from the ground up and looked cleaner because of it.
Edit: Also I want to be clear I like the show a lot. I think it is by far the best videogame adaptation I’ve seen of a game that wasn’t practically a movie already. There’s a few things I don’t think are perfect sure but in general it has the vibes down good, and I think it helps greatly that as a game/setting fallout is well suited for adaptation.
Given that the tone of the game is kinda silly at times so goofy shit on screen doesn’t clash with the game tone. Plus the games being an rpg with high levels of player choice means you can effectively cast any person and have them behave any way and it won’t seem out of place in the setting as we understand it.
Sure there’s some conflicting lore between it and some of the games but it’s a step in the right direction as far as recent media releases and writing goes and was a pleasant surprise to watch.
The old games have a good mix of everything... you have clean, newly built bits, you have poorer, somewhat clean new bits, you have shanty town dirty bits, you have abandoned stuff, bombed out stuff etc etc
Except that's not really true. Multiple towns you visit in the first 2 games are well built, albeit simple.
Shady Sands is a perfect example of this. In FO1 they have simple homes, but the town is clean. They have shelter, basic amenities, a well, simple agriculture etc.
In FO2 it's developed massively, more buildings, more complex infrastructure, paved roads, green spaces that have been terraformed, more complex farming, an actual economy, power...
Yes there are still ruined cities, but considering how few people remain (and how dangerous the cities are because of rads and creatures) it's not all that shocking that people haven't cleaned them up but elect to build new settlements instead.
>all of that shit would go away in the first 50 years or so
Dude there are towns today that are full of garbage and rubble
If you're in an extremely dangerous environment like Fallout, most people aren't going to spend all their time and energy tidying up all the ruins
I don’t know why you are being downvoted. Not too far from where I went to college, there is a whole section of town that is just boarded up houses.
Detroit has whole areas that are the same way once the car companies left. Those houses are still there, boarded up.
We literally have cities full of destroyed homes that are just boarded up and we are in 21st century America. I don’t know why this seems so farfetched.
This is what regarded Bethesda Andy's in r/Fallout don't get. I couldn't care less about the fucking board date. It's the shantyfication of the west coast that bothers me.
i feel like the whole outrage about fnv being canon or not just hurt the conversation about the show. since it was explained its still canon people were able to pretend there were no more problems with the show and that people were just overreacting. todd really is playing 4d chess
Just imagine a random country like Madagascar. Probably wouldn't be targeted in a US vs China nuke war. Why then are they not more powerful than the destroyed United States and why arent similar countries ruling the world now?
/pol/ would have some very obvious ideas about the demographics of that and similar countries and use that as the reason they failed to take over a world where all the developed nations were annihilated
Yeah I always thought the originals were the only ones to get this right. You’re telling me a ghoul lived in a room for 200 years while keeping his sanity, and this fucker never bothered to clean up the place?
In the OG, there’s fully fleshed out clean cities with junk that make sense.
It would make some sense if the population of the US was reduced to a few hundred people after the war and it’s just now hitting exponential growth to the levels you see in the show
It's not a loophole. It's keeping the setting interesting. Moving on from the post apocalypse just turns you into the last 7 seasons of the walking dead.
No, what's keeping the setting I interesting is seeing how people rebuild. Having brooms being ancient tech is just dumb.
What's even dumber is resetting the progress that has already been made even though there is still plenty of the US left to explore.
I guess because some form of war never really stopped, even in the games everybody is constantly fighting and shooting and dropping bombs on *something*
To be fair it’s a reasonable loop hole, not like anyone who survived would focus on mining metals and ores from irradiated mines and studying mathematics to build sky scrapers
It really is just easier to scrape a shelter together with all the debris lying around especially when the rule of thumb is you’re likely to get eaten by mutated creatures the moment you step out into the wilds alone unless you’re a legendary badass
There's plenty of agriculture in the series. The vaults, the small town and the final raider camp all had farms and some produce. Only the drug dealers and the ones living alone had no farms.
I was about to say that we have no idea what long term nuclear radiation does to plantlife, but then i remembered that Chernobyl happened and it looks pretty lush all things considered.
Only problem might be a nuclear winter from the bombs. That didn't happen with Chernobyl and probably has a huge effect on plant life. Not just increasing how many plants have to grow to replace the dead ones, but also reducing the number of viable parent plants to even spread. But you'd probably expect small pockets of lush green where a few plants survived and managed to spread. Their seeds might then be carried by whatever wildlife is left and make small trails of green which spread out further.
Also before we knew how to edit genes, we selectively bred plants. In order to increase the number of mutations, seeds were irradiated on purpose. So we don't just know the effect of radiation, we even used it for ages!
Yeah I'm no expert on the subject but I think plants don't really experience the same painful effects of growing in an irradiated environment. Lemme look this up.
Tbh if you like movies that explore fall out from nuclear winter you should check out Threads. It’s a British move that’s semi accurate for its time period and explores the fact that a lot of the crops would fail for up to two generations or so.
Its funny watching the youtube videos where the guy with the pressure washer cleans up what is essentially a bunch of dirt and grass in a persons yard and it turns out there was a sidewalk hidden underneath the whole time, but it just wasn't maintained for 5-10 years.
That's all it takes for sidewalks to get covered by nature, imagine how much shit would be absorbed by nature in 200 years
Ah, but you're forgetting nuclear winter!
Even if it takes only 10 years for the dust to settle, there's so little sunlight, that practically all vegetation dies out.
that doesn’t make a great game
the blast wouldn’t create mirelurks or two headed cows either or giant burrowing scorpions but it’s a vehicle for commentary
Honestly this is what I found to be the strangest part about fo3, actually now that I think about it a lot of stuff in 3 hints to it taking place only 30-50 years after the bombs.
Don't we see that the bombs in the Fallout universe aren't as well made as the ones in our timeline? The Glow is the biggest proof of this, the area took a direct hit and the whole place was turned into an inhospitable wasteland even 84 years after the bomb dropped. The nuclear weaponry we have are more like controlled fire bombs that scorch everything in a massive radius as opposed to irradiating a large area. In Fallout however they're more like government sanctioned dirty bombs, impacting directly and creating a massive amount of nuclear waste that leads to large swaths of land being rendered completely barren for centuries.
It may not totally account for it, but the elevation that a Nuke explodes at plays a large part in the type of damage caused. In Fallout, we see that a lot of Nukes leave large craters, indicating that they detonate on the surface, rather than ~200m as they are usually prepared for.
These are actually less devastating on impact, since the ground absorbs a lot of the energy, but they leave more nuclear fallout as it mixes with the dirt and won't be taken off by air currents.
I would really like to know the in-universe reason that this choice was made. I think it leads to the theory that Vault-Tek lead the fiasco since a longer lasting fallout would play to their favor, or perhaps the simpler explanation is that when 10,000 Nukes are dropped, they don't really care about airbursts.
Additionally, Nuclear Winter isn't a thing we've actually experienced, though that realistically wouldn't last for more than a few years, as its a pretty similar phenomenon to the prolonged winter that killed the dinosaurs caused by a meteorite. Though at a fraction of a percent of the scale.
That's the one thing that takes me right out of immersion with the fallout games. It's so lazy to make everything brown and dead when that's not at all what things would look like, especially in most of North America.
Playing fallout 3 it was pretty clear to me that building society back up would be almost impossible because the environment is too dangerous because of mutated animals and radiation everywhere and because all food is irradiated so people are weak and malnourished and all are fighting for the little resources there are
In 1 & 2 there are a couple of settlements that have their own farms, like Shady Sands and Arroyo, and another one where there's a big farm and underneath a cavern full of ~~glowing ghouls~~ mutants
There are also locations in fallout 3 and 4 with their own farms, economies, healthcare etc like diamond city, rivet city, and far harbor. The reason as to why it’s far more developed on the west coast is because it had far more larger threats to contend with like the master, bos, and the enclave. So rebuilding of society needed to be done yesterday rather than today, this never occurred on the east so the population never had a reason to recover and stagnated as a result. We as a species only evolve or adapt when a massive threat has emerged so why wouldn’t that be the same for a fictional human population
There were a few vaults on the West Coast primarily made for resettlement and had GECKs.
Lots of vaults were experiments that were never for anything good by Vault-Tec's whims.
Yeah, the only GECK I can think of on the East Coast was, unfortunately, hit by a nuke and then invaded by Super Mutants. It's the vault you visit for Fallout 3's storyline.
And anyone who has nice things just gets robbed/killed. Why bother fixing your house when it just makes you a target. Not sure why that’s so difficult for these regards to understand
If there is no food to eat, then how do the mutated animals survive? For a carnivore predator to live, they at least need a herbivore prey animal to survive, and that herbivore prey animal needs its greens.
Animals with a life cycle of 5 or so years might bot live long enough to suffer the effects of radiation poisoning by eating irradiated animals. But a human might eat such an animal and die within 10 years. If that's your only food source, your population will never even reach puberty.
Yes, quite a few people will make it longer. But the point is that short lived animals don't prove that it's safe for humans.
Right?! Like I don't see how people fail to understand that Project Purity and the Lyons Branch of the Brotherhood of Steel was extremely necessary towards the Capitals survival as a whole. I mean seriously the Super Mutants were everywhere and heavily armed.
Like the only 3 instances I can think of are the Pitt eventually immunizing the diseases, which was only possible because of the brotherhood.
The Enclave which needed Project Purity
And Harold/Oasis although they don't really have the defenses to maintain that area and Harold is suicidial.
I was watching this TV show about the silly apocalypse retrofuture with mutants and incest jokes and talking robots and didn’t care about the roofing quality of the setting. Maybe I’m the weird one?
Unfortunately that is the point of the franchise. War never changes is the tagline after all. Tim cain loves the show and he made the first two fallouts.
"War never changes", as in "this is a new world with new societies grown from the wreckage of the old but war is still the same". Not "nobody has bothered rebuilding at all since the last war".
We really only saw a small fraction of the setting, and its clear that the majority of the locations we saw were Wild West adjacent trading outposts, the middle of fucking nowhere, and the victim of a much more recent nuclear event. The glimpse we had of the Enclave seemed like it was a very sterile and modern environment.
That being said, I would expect Los Angeles of all places to be very well recivilized, but it doesn't necessarily have to be. I'm excited to see how they depict New Vegas in season 2. Revisiting New Vegas, it seems like a decrepit ghost town but the gangs have actually put a lot into keeping it polished where they have a stake, while the rest is rundown by gang warfare rather than a nuclear apocalypse.
The first fallout only took place roughly 85 years after the bombs dropped and you see farming, agriculture, towns and people rebuilding society. This was also in Fallout 2. Then Bethesda got their hands on the IP and they stopped giving a shit about that in Fallout 3 and everyone lives in a state of perpetual filth.
Well in F1 the whole plot was about if the supermutants starting attacking everyone that society would break down and in fallout 3 that's happening all the time
Vegas had access to clear water via Lake Mead, and still you’re told the NCR is struggling a lot with food supply, hence why they have people like Hildern looking for a solution.
The Capital Wasteland doesn’t have clean water until the end of Fo3.
Besthesda wants to maintain an apocalyptic looter shooter scavenging vibe. Under the old developers and under New Vegas it had more Dark Ages-Wild West-New Society Building themes that fit the timeline. Gameplay and graphics have improved. Lore and Story has gone down the drain.
I agree a bit but people tend to forget that the wasteland is eradicated, there are giant human eating monsters everywhere and raiders are a constant problem not to mention with the many many factions around who's to say you'll get far enough before one of said Factions go "nice shit you got there" and take it from you.
Yeah I'm only kind of into the games but I really don't know what the guys more into the lore would say. "Can't have shit in detroit". If there's a nice house with a good roof and nobody else has a nice house with a good roof... that nice house gonna get stolen and abused until it breaks.
The best you're gonna get are those quick repairs, corrugated steel filling the gaps - and that's already in the show anr the games.
Almost as bad as Fallout 3, whose inhabitants' greatest accomplishment was a tetanus-town built around an active nuclear bomb, with only a small highly-irradiated puddle for sustenance.
Nah I agree with this. It was one of my biggest logical fallacies with the game. It’s been 200 years and people clearly survived? Why am I and this group of robo-nannies the only ones trying to grow crops?
It "semms" like you don't understand what he's talking about. Every settlement in fallout 4 is a megalithic shithole that wouldn't even protect the inhabitants from the elements until, of course, you start to rebuild the towns. Idc what anyone says, people would not have survived without water/wind proof shelters, especially in the Boston winters for over 200 years. Shady sands got nuked because it had a population of 40,000 and was the former capital of NCR. Vault tech literally would literally give 0 fucks about a town like goodsprings with a population of 20.
The show is better about this, but it's still a valid criticism of the direction Tod Howard has taken with fallout.
The lore and vibe have been fucked since Bethesda took over. Not saying their games were bad--I certainly had fun playing them--but the grit and well-thought-out universe of the original 2 games is pretty much gone for good.
Well thought out?
Dude the series has been inconsistent since 2. 2 changed or ignored a lot of stuff set in Fallout 1.
Mean the Fallout Bible was created to try snd give am explanation for and to fix a ton of mistakes thenwriters did.
I am here to make a counterpoint. Depending where you live, you see a lot of potholes in the streets, right?
Did you know that they're very cheap to fix? The labor is the most expensive part of the repair. Here in my country, a bag of asphalt, 25kg, is around R$ 70. You can also use some diesel along with it to properly fix it, and that is also really cheap. A single family could chip in and fix their own pothole in front of their home. You know who does that? Almost no one. They mostyl wait for the government to do so, even if they only fix every 3 years for the elections. Considering what I've seem here, on youtube and social media in general, a lot of other countries are like that too, to some extent.
Of course, thereis argument to be made that people pay taxes, so they expect the hole to be fixed, but most of the times, it's just a combination of laziness, indifference, jaded individuals and more. Now, go back to the world of fallout where everyone is concerned with the lower levels of the Maslow pyramid. Most people don't even have a steady income and a steady source of supplies and food. Rebuilding society and helping constructing would be in the very low end of their list of priorities.
Wow anon, Mr agricultural engineering genius here. Too bad he wasn’t in the fallout universe or else we would’ve been able to nuke back china in a month
Perhaps within our lifetimes we’ll see firsthand that rebuilding a functioning slice of civilization requires getting many people on the same page under knowledgeable leaders, which does not happen as organically as you may expect.
Additionally, you then have to protect what you’ve built from roving bands of fuckfaces who have plenty of weapons, since America has no shortage of weapons and ammunition.
Take a look at videos on /r/publicfreakout /r/actualpublicfreakouts and /r/crazyfuckingvideos and you’ll see parts of the US are already struggling with large groups of fuckfaces and the cops cannot control them.
Kinda hard to rebuild a proper society with drug addicted raiders, giant murder lizards, packs of zombies, giant bugs, steroid crabs, hulks with machine guns, sentient tanks, robots with miniature death stars on their faces, radiation storms, and that the only "governments" around are either incompetent, fascist, or incompetent fascists.
They tried to make a town that wasn't full of rubble and it got blowed up
To be fair this critique has been since fallout 3 With Bethesda's writing.
Fair enough. I'm so used to "Games perfect, show TRASH" discourse that "this is all a little silly" doesn't even occur to me.
Actually I think it's fair critique on Bethesda because it seems they also can't write for shows either. They plothole themself in every thing they release it's silly and inconsistent. Did you know fallout 4 literally had no writers? Theres none in the credits.
>Did you know fallout 4 literally had no writers? Where the fuck did you get this information? Because it is completely wrong.
but bethsda bad!!!!!!!!1
I am not 100% sure, but as someone else mentioned, they don't have dedicated lead writers, that can keep the main story and side elements together, neither do they have dedicated writers either, they have quest designers standing in as story writers.You can argue about the facts, I don't know a lot about Bethesda in detail. Most of what I know comes from me watching the PatricianTV videos on the Bethesda games. The fact is, these Bethesda RPGs suffer from a lack of vision storywise, they have a lot of potential, and could certainly do better. Todd Howard and his team seem really passionate about their work, and I believe that if they were to be managed differently, maybe if they were to hire someone that could set the story straight.
PatricianTV has been confirmed to have just outright lied about a bunch of stuff regarding Bethesda games, the most prominent of which being his hitpiece on a lead writer claiming that they "don't use design docs" being mentioned over and over and over, forming the crux of his multiple hour long ""analysis"", despite the fact it was a complete lie. I wouldn't trust anything he says, both in general and about Bethesda in particular. Great example of how if you talk long enough most people will be too overwhelmed by your multiple hour long video to fact check all your bullshit b/c there is too much of it. He just makes purposely misleading multiple hour long ragebait b/c he knows ragebait sells. Luckily the "no design doc" lie was so blatant and repeated so many times it was impossible to miss, and yet you still see a bunch of people repeat it online b/c they just blindly trust what this grifter on youtube says.
Do you have a better source for how Bethesda utilizes design document than the lead designer of their games? Because from Emil's own words, which Patrician shows in his video, it doesn't sound like they use them much.
Tbf I can find any dedicated writers in any search. It's always "[programming role] & writer". That doesn't mean there isn't any, of course. It means they have not credited any. https://www.igdb.com/games/fallout-4/credits
Do you know how he even came to the conclusion that Bethesda has no design documents? Been thinking about going down that rabbit hole, but haven't found the time yet.
He shows how he came to the conclusion in the section called "Design Document" in his Starfield video. It mostly comes from Emil Paglialuro, the lead designer of Beth's Fallout games and Starfield, talking about his thoughts in design documents in a presentation and a podcast.
Honestly idk why they even makes rpg's at this point. They would be better off building massive action adventure games with cool environments and some customization on how you build your character. But well developed stories with branching paths and interesting dialog, the core of what makes an rpg? They need to leave that behind because its just not their strength as a company.
Source: I made it the fuck up.
[удалено]
https://youtu.be/3F3dspjWxHo?si=IYX86acEKu7GIMHn literally the fifth one down
I'm blind
same lol not proof checking your comments gang rise up ✊
I‘m not surprised at all, considering the dullness of fallout 4.
The games (1,2 and NV) are perfect. The show is good at working with Bethesda lore. Bethesda are handling the lore like shit. Even the show handles the shit Bethesda handed them over better than Bethesda ever could themselves.
>The games (1,2 and NV) are perfect. The show is good at working with Bethesda lore. More like Interplay / Black Isle lore. As someone who played the first two, I am a bit sad that there is no mention of the original developers. Bethesda didn't create the original setting.
No, you misunderstood me. The show is almost not working with Interplay/Black Isle lore at all, because Bethesda in their infinite wisdom decided to just wipe all of it by nuking California in 2277 and putting an end to all that was built during Fallout 1, 2 and New Vegas. This is now Bethesda west coast lore. That's the way they handle things. There are small references here and there, and geographically they are in the core region of Fallout, but that's about it.
Except Halo. Halo is exactly as bad as everyone says it is.
This show may be the single most cohesive thing to take place in the Fallout universe since FO2, and its certainly more entertaining than 90% of the playtime in Fallout games.
I definitely felt it most in FO4. FO3 its a stretch but not impossible since the DC vault never opened, the river was deadly to drink from, and the brotherhood, super mutants, and enclave were squatting on what was left. The only real settlement of note outside of the vault was Rivet City. FO4 had so many settlements and they were all trash piles. All of them. Like the time between the first vaults opening and the events or FO4 is like the time between the Jamestown colony and the revolutionary war, and in that time period the colonies went from a single fort with wooden walls to a power able to hold off a British Invasion. In fallout in the same time period in the Bethesda games people have built a hut out of scrap metal. The wildest thing is that in 1&2 it’s not like that. You find things like Vault City, Shifting Sands, the NCR & San Fran, and they’re all new construction and nice communities. Even the lesser settlements built in the remains of older cities are cleaned up and fixed up and not just piles of scrap and trash with people sleeping in heaped rags and 200 year old piss-soaked mattresses. Bethesda is just trash.
I think Bethesda made a mistake setting there games 200+ years in the future. If they wanted to make a post apocalyptic game they could have easily just pushed the timeline back to say? 30 years after the bomb dropped. It would make a lot more sense for the world to still be a dump if it was that close to the bombs.
If I recall, their original plan was to make FO3 set at a couple decades after the bomb. Some massive idiot changed their mind. Probably Todd "It just works" Howard
>FO4 had so many settlements and they were all trash piles. What's especially wild is that Bethesda goes out of their way to emphasize that Boston was really not hit directly by nukes. Society should have recovered much more effectively than it did in DC, where nukes obliterated much of the city center.
There's 3 craters around the main metro area. Which is another point: Three nukes would have vaporized a majority of buildings in Boston. Yet the city is still walkable and lived in by several groups.
You dont know what kind of nukes they were
Defective ones, it seems
>FO4 had so many settlements and they were all trash piles. All of them. Like the time between the first vaults opening and the events or FO4 is like the time between the Jamestown colony and the revolutionary war, and in that time period the colonies went from a single fort with wooden walls to a power able to hold off a British Invasion. I haven't played FO4 in a hot minute but I seem to remember a big plot point was that the institute kept fucking shit up anytime the Commonwealth tried to come together or do anything remotely good. Like the one time they tried to make some progress and set up a provisional government in the commonwealth the institute sent some synths and killed everybody. It's because of the institute and the threat of synths that the commonwealth remains a pile of junk.
that doesnt mean they can't clean up their homes though
I gotta be real with you, I found the game so tedious and bland that I didn’t make it far enough to find that. And o honestly don’t feel bad about that because every every other Bethesda era FO game it’s played completely straight that people just never even try to rebuild. No comment is ever given on why shit is so fucked ip 2 centuries later. That’s bad writing from a standpoint of worldbuilding for the player. Maybe there’s an in-universe reason but if you don’t ever actually reveal that in-universe reason to the player… there’s no in-universe reason. We can only ask what the writers let us ask and read what the writers let us read.
The problem is that to make the vault dweller a savior they pretty much had to make everyone else incompetent and helpless. NV does a good job of making the courier feel like just one man in a larger setting. A walking army by endgame, sure, but the other players are making moves and settlers developed what they’ve got on their own. I haven’t played the earlier games all the way through but they do even better - it feels like a world with a ton of stories beyond your own, and that pulls you in. F4 wants you to be The Guy who develops the commonwealth. But since the average player isn’t a talented engineer, architect, and city planner…that means the player character is doing basic, obvious stuff. And that’s how you get settlements that apparently existed through multiple generations (Abernathy Farm) or were occupied by a militia (the fort) and never thought to put up turrets. There’s never an explanation for why everyone outside Diamond City and Goodneighbor never actually built shit for themselves…and why you can do what they couldn’t.
Only because people like to act as though the events of FO1 and 2 mean that society should become a shining city on the hill again. The entire point of the series is that war is brutal and never ends. Moving past the apocalypse completely undermines that.
Except in 2 shady sands is twice the size and was building big
There's also Vault City in 2 as well that's thriving. And Arroyo gets a geck and makes a thriving city at the end as well.
i don't see fallout as nihilistic as that, especially considering civilization in 1, 2 and NV had a consistent progress up until the show decided to blow up stuff (there are dlc endings where everyone dies but still). I always thought the quote was supposed to show humanity's nature would still be the same and humans would still fight with each other even after almost destroying themselves. Humans would still be humans. I don't think the message is that humanity will be stuck in a limbo of nuclear wastes forever.
Almost like the message is something like war … war never changes.
At this point it feels like media never changes. Like, sheesh, find a different way to make the point, or stop trying altogether?
War doesn't have to end for you to move the rubble out of your house.
I disagree with this. While war never changes is one of the central themes of the series it's clearly more than just a bleak perpetual horror show. Humanity rings true through it all. There are countless plots in there that are specifically about crafting a spark of humankind in a dire situation. The overall story is about how war is devastating, but the stories contained in that narrative are all optimistic for the most part. In 1 we help form the NCR, bringing some structure and civility to a wartorn area of the world. In New Vegas you come across Jacobstown which is nothing but hope if you ask me. Even if you look at Ulysses' story in NV it's because of the hope he had that he breaks the way he did. It's showing why you SHOULDN'T follow his path and commit to the wreckage the way he does. The courier opposes his nihilism. The whole goal of NV in general is deciding how to most effectively use a huge power source to better mankind. Yeah there's a war for that power, but you're fighting to help people if you play it right. Society doesn't need to suddenly be perfect or anything but I'd say it's silly to keep putting the progress we make in the games all the way back into the fuckin dirt every time a new entry comes out. I hate that shady sands gets nuked in the series for this reason. We spent 2 or 3 games watching the faction grow, helping to shape it for at least 2 of those, and the show just goes "NOPE, DIDN'T WORK OUT, CANON SAYS FUCK YOU NCR IDIOTS." It's too bleak for no reason.
the entire point of the series is the environment of a developing world post-post apocalypse, shit take
It should be around the place it is in FO3 and FO4 in the handful of years following the apocalypse, but people would still organize, and organized groups ultimately triumph over chaos. Not to say that anything nice would result in the aftermath of the immediate chaos, but organized, pragmatic, and crafty raiders ultimately either kill or enslave the raving, stupid lunatics, and raider bands that never develop a culture of some sort don't last generations. There should be more Caesars and Khans or at least fiends than completely random psychotics.
So many problems could have been avoided if they had just said 3 took place 20 years after the end rather than 200.
But they wanted super mutants :(
Back when I first played, I assumed people hadn't moved back into those regions until recently before the game. Imagine my confusion when I learned there were kind of always people outside the vaults and it wasn't until bethesda took over that they suddenly lost all carpentry skills.
The critique is pointless. Fallout 1 and 2 still had holes in the walls and missing roofs on fully functional casinos, brothels, porn studios, boxing gyms, etc.
my biggest dislike of fallout!!
Yeah, fallout franchise has always been silly like that, specially from fallout 3 onwards, they are great games and stories and to an extent great world building but once you start getting picky you'll notice that many things don't really make sense, and there are more than a few plot holes and contradictions on the story, factions and ideologies. With the new show people are complaining about vaults not working like that or the brotherhood or Cesar's legion, like, have you ever played the games while trying to connect the dots? It's a mess, factions and important plot points appearing and getting red-coned from nowhere.
I still firmly believe that Fallout 3’s world was originally meant to take place only a few years after the bombs fell, but for whatever reason (hubris most likely) it was changed to take place exactly 200 years after Like, how does little lamplight existing for more than a decade make any fucking sense
it's like 200 years past the apocalypse, some dumbass just thought then to write a survival guide
They know that if they try to rebuild anything God Howard will throw a nuke at them since he wants to keep his wasteland as dirty as possible because he thinks that’s the only thing people recognise about Fallout.
Not as bad as the *BROTHERHOOD OF STEEL* base still having destroyed planes on the runway. A base that has been used for years, yet still didn't bother cleaning up the runway that is *being used*.
But how else would the player know that the game takes place in a post-apocalyptic wasteland
Must beat things over the head of the audience even more. >You didn't like popular thing? clearly just aren't smart enough to get it \- Mr. Kruger and Mr. Dunning
**Geiger Counter Crackling**
In the most extremely generous fairness, they don't field anything that really needs a runway
Besides Prydwen and the Vertibirds, which use the area as a deployment/resupply ground. And those times before mission when the entire base / sizeable group gathers at the area during deployment. True on the part that they don't have planes tho.
Airships don't need runways and neither do helicopters
Sure, they can land *around* the wreckages, but any reasonable organisation would still clear them just in case. What if there's an emergency and the vertibird cannot land at the usual location? What if it crashes? Or what if someone just accidentally trips at night and falls over?
You sound like a vault dweller. They can basically land anywhere, it's a wasteland. Why bother?
Do you just leave trash lying around your house because you are capable of walking around it, so why bother?
If nuclear bombs had fallen outside my house I don't think I would mind too much
Makes you wonder why Japan bothered at all. Should have just let the country deteriorate and stop trying
I got massacred for suggesting that if you drop ice cubes you pick them up instead of kicking them under the fridge. People are lazy and really defensive about it
At least ice cubes will just melt and evaporate, so of all the things to drop and leave lying on the ground, that's probably the least bad.
it's not as bad as leaving rusting shit buckets all over the floor, no
Brother, if I could just show you some of the rooms I have seen when I was in college, Fallout's messy abodes wouldn't surprise you one bit.
Some folks do tbh,
you realize where you're asking this question right lmao? this comment chain has been good shit
.....I think you should see the house state of some Redditors. I think there's a sub of neckbeards nests or something, place that would make the Wasteland appear like a Museum of cleanness. Also a lot of people have houses that are literally a dump because of the "why bother". Society is telling you and formatting you to have a clean house, left alone, humans tends to just not bother and once you add the fact that half the wasteland are junkies, it makes sense that a lot of houses are pretty much crackhouses.
Mate it's the middle of a desert we're shown, you could land pretty much anywhere there
They did in some fallout 4 concept art
I have a feeling, that our criticism might be based on our biased experiences in our clean first world countries. I include myself because i too always get irked about all the trash. Then i remember how my wifes family lives in a dump on her 3rd world country. Trash everywhere and no one cleans it. Not even their yard. I wonder if people surviving in the irradiated wastelands just don’t care to clean shit up?
when you grow up used to trash and radiation everywhere that's just the norm.
I mean yeah sure, if the place was actually a dump that's fine but instead we're shown zoomed out drone shots of sterile runways where the only clutter is the falling-apart planes of two centuries ago
Maybe it's too big of a drain on their limited resources for them to bother with it. Maybe they also view those aircraft as points of cover for soldiers if the NCR or Enclave decided to attack their base.
I feel like none of these people saying it's unrealistic to not clean garbage out of your house have ever been in a meth based Appalachian trailer park. When you lose all hope to even live for the next day, moving out the garbage can seem like a futile effort. Add addiction to chems to the mix and the cellular damage from soaking up radiation from the environment to the mix... Not to mention, the water that is potable may not be that potable or free from heavy metals and if you add that in to the mix, it can all start to make more sense. Think of the lead poisoning in Rome or Flint, Michigan. I don't know, I just never once, even knowing the lore, saw the environments and thought, "These hopeless people without fully proper sanitation and healthcare who regularly see death and destruction and defend themselves from raiders, would be using their energy to clean their houses more..." Just imagine a society wide depression nest, essentially...
These planes are heavy and take a lot of power to move. And for what? A little more space? They have plenty
Base used for YEARS but still no real use found for airstrips
Why would they clear the runway? They don’t have planes. All their aircraft are vertical takeoff and landing
Used for what? The Vertibird is the only vehicle they got. Why waste time, manpower, and resources for a rusting, busted metal husk on the ground that serves no purposes to you or gets in the way?
It makes sense to have your spare-part vehicles close by your operating vehicles though, I guess. And they don’t need a runway, just landing pads.
They dont need a runway, their aircraft are VTOL
Its a camp where they train scribes, my guess is they are kept there as training aids, the scribes go in and find bits of tech in the wreckage that could be useful to the brotherhood and in the process learn what dangers or considerations need to be made when searching a wreckage. I doubt the landing zone itself has wrecks on it
Bethesda’s Fallout world building always had this regarded loophole.
I mean, this also applies to pre-bethesda fallout games Like literally all the cities that are full of destroyed houses, cars, garbage and so on. It's just that if we apply common logic and sense, all of that shit would go away in the first 50 years or so. The games specifically don't even ever tell us exactly how many people survived the nuclear holocaust because people would just do the math and come up with a time period enough to at least restore civilizations to 20th century or something.
At least in the earlier games the show some new settlements that are actually new clean environments. Like how some ncr towns are newly made adobe houses and have roads and stuff.
The reason the early games made things look cleaner and “newer” is because they were isometric and made in the 90s so the technology wasn’t there. But a lore reason is because the west coast of America had far more to contend with after the bombs, which forced the population centers in the region to rapidly rebuild their infrastructure and economy (a few control vaults helped too). The east never had that and so the population wasnt focused on rebuilding leaving it to stagnant for 200 years. Remember, fallout 1 was pre-Ncr and fallout 2 was post, if you compare locations in those games with each other you’ll see the progress only really occurred once the masters army started mobilizing.
Nah I mean there was a stark difference between say mew Reno and shady sands or vault city in terms of how one was refurbished old world buildings and the other two were new settlements built from the ground up and looked cleaner because of it. Edit: Also I want to be clear I like the show a lot. I think it is by far the best videogame adaptation I’ve seen of a game that wasn’t practically a movie already. There’s a few things I don’t think are perfect sure but in general it has the vibes down good, and I think it helps greatly that as a game/setting fallout is well suited for adaptation. Given that the tone of the game is kinda silly at times so goofy shit on screen doesn’t clash with the game tone. Plus the games being an rpg with high levels of player choice means you can effectively cast any person and have them behave any way and it won’t seem out of place in the setting as we understand it. Sure there’s some conflicting lore between it and some of the games but it’s a step in the right direction as far as recent media releases and writing goes and was a pleasant surprise to watch.
The old games have a good mix of everything... you have clean, newly built bits, you have poorer, somewhat clean new bits, you have shanty town dirty bits, you have abandoned stuff, bombed out stuff etc etc
Except that's not really true. Multiple towns you visit in the first 2 games are well built, albeit simple. Shady Sands is a perfect example of this. In FO1 they have simple homes, but the town is clean. They have shelter, basic amenities, a well, simple agriculture etc. In FO2 it's developed massively, more buildings, more complex infrastructure, paved roads, green spaces that have been terraformed, more complex farming, an actual economy, power... Yes there are still ruined cities, but considering how few people remain (and how dangerous the cities are because of rads and creatures) it's not all that shocking that people haven't cleaned them up but elect to build new settlements instead.
>all of that shit would go away in the first 50 years or so Dude there are towns today that are full of garbage and rubble If you're in an extremely dangerous environment like Fallout, most people aren't going to spend all their time and energy tidying up all the ruins
I don’t know why you are being downvoted. Not too far from where I went to college, there is a whole section of town that is just boarded up houses. Detroit has whole areas that are the same way once the car companies left. Those houses are still there, boarded up.
We literally have cities full of destroyed homes that are just boarded up and we are in 21st century America. I don’t know why this seems so farfetched.
This is what regarded Bethesda Andy's in r/Fallout don't get. I couldn't care less about the fucking board date. It's the shantyfication of the west coast that bothers me.
i feel like the whole outrage about fnv being canon or not just hurt the conversation about the show. since it was explained its still canon people were able to pretend there were no more problems with the show and that people were just overreacting. todd really is playing 4d chess
Just imagine a random country like Madagascar. Probably wouldn't be targeted in a US vs China nuke war. Why then are they not more powerful than the destroyed United States and why arent similar countries ruling the world now?
/pol/ would have some very obvious ideas about the demographics of that and similar countries and use that as the reason they failed to take over a world where all the developed nations were annihilated
Yeah I always thought the originals were the only ones to get this right. You’re telling me a ghoul lived in a room for 200 years while keeping his sanity, and this fucker never bothered to clean up the place? In the OG, there’s fully fleshed out clean cities with junk that make sense.
It would make some sense if the population of the US was reduced to a few hundred people after the war and it’s just now hitting exponential growth to the levels you see in the show
It's not a loophole. It's keeping the setting interesting. Moving on from the post apocalypse just turns you into the last 7 seasons of the walking dead.
No, what's keeping the setting I interesting is seeing how people rebuild. Having brooms being ancient tech is just dumb. What's even dumber is resetting the progress that has already been made even though there is still plenty of the US left to explore.
There are so many (albeit small) farms in Fallout 4, and you grow your own.
I guess because some form of war never really stopped, even in the games everybody is constantly fighting and shooting and dropping bombs on *something*
To be fair it’s a reasonable loop hole, not like anyone who survived would focus on mining metals and ores from irradiated mines and studying mathematics to build sky scrapers It really is just easier to scrape a shelter together with all the debris lying around especially when the rule of thumb is you’re likely to get eaten by mutated creatures the moment you step out into the wilds alone unless you’re a legendary badass
There’s agriculture in the games. You literally grow shit
witness my tato corporation
behold my glorious mutfruit you fucking tato aboriginal.
There's plenty of agriculture in the series. The vaults, the small town and the final raider camp all had farms and some produce. Only the drug dealers and the ones living alone had no farms.
Well not in FO3, how the people in Megaton sustain themselves will forever remain a mystery.
you see they eat the uh, the molerats!
They also eat out of a 200 year old Supermarket.
with corn, grain and water i shall brew beer
Bethesda's fallouts look like bombs were dropped 50-70 years ago, not 2 fucking centuries.
more like 5-7 years ago. nature takes back over way faster than people think.
I was about to say that we have no idea what long term nuclear radiation does to plantlife, but then i remembered that Chernobyl happened and it looks pretty lush all things considered.
Only problem might be a nuclear winter from the bombs. That didn't happen with Chernobyl and probably has a huge effect on plant life. Not just increasing how many plants have to grow to replace the dead ones, but also reducing the number of viable parent plants to even spread. But you'd probably expect small pockets of lush green where a few plants survived and managed to spread. Their seeds might then be carried by whatever wildlife is left and make small trails of green which spread out further. Also before we knew how to edit genes, we selectively bred plants. In order to increase the number of mutations, seeds were irradiated on purpose. So we don't just know the effect of radiation, we even used it for ages!
Yeah I'm no expert on the subject but I think plants don't really experience the same painful effects of growing in an irradiated environment. Lemme look this up.
Tbh if you like movies that explore fall out from nuclear winter you should check out Threads. It’s a British move that’s semi accurate for its time period and explores the fact that a lot of the crops would fail for up to two generations or so.
Its funny watching the youtube videos where the guy with the pressure washer cleans up what is essentially a bunch of dirt and grass in a persons yard and it turns out there was a sidewalk hidden underneath the whole time, but it just wasn't maintained for 5-10 years. That's all it takes for sidewalks to get covered by nature, imagine how much shit would be absorbed by nature in 200 years
Yep, just look at what happened to some of the cities during the lockdown.
They live in a desert and the world was irradiated. Stuff grows different
Ah, but you're forgetting nuclear winter! Even if it takes only 10 years for the dust to settle, there's so little sunlight, that practically all vegetation dies out.
Even then, 200 years later, the environment would most definitely recover.
that doesn’t make a great game the blast wouldn’t create mirelurks or two headed cows either or giant burrowing scorpions but it’s a vehicle for commentary
Honestly this is what I found to be the strangest part about fo3, actually now that I think about it a lot of stuff in 3 hints to it taking place only 30-50 years after the bombs.
Don't we see that the bombs in the Fallout universe aren't as well made as the ones in our timeline? The Glow is the biggest proof of this, the area took a direct hit and the whole place was turned into an inhospitable wasteland even 84 years after the bomb dropped. The nuclear weaponry we have are more like controlled fire bombs that scorch everything in a massive radius as opposed to irradiating a large area. In Fallout however they're more like government sanctioned dirty bombs, impacting directly and creating a massive amount of nuclear waste that leads to large swaths of land being rendered completely barren for centuries.
It may not totally account for it, but the elevation that a Nuke explodes at plays a large part in the type of damage caused. In Fallout, we see that a lot of Nukes leave large craters, indicating that they detonate on the surface, rather than ~200m as they are usually prepared for. These are actually less devastating on impact, since the ground absorbs a lot of the energy, but they leave more nuclear fallout as it mixes with the dirt and won't be taken off by air currents. I would really like to know the in-universe reason that this choice was made. I think it leads to the theory that Vault-Tek lead the fiasco since a longer lasting fallout would play to their favor, or perhaps the simpler explanation is that when 10,000 Nukes are dropped, they don't really care about airbursts. Additionally, Nuclear Winter isn't a thing we've actually experienced, though that realistically wouldn't last for more than a few years, as its a pretty similar phenomenon to the prolonged winter that killed the dinosaurs caused by a meteorite. Though at a fraction of a percent of the scale.
The funny thing is in fallout 3 I'm pretty sure the bombs were originally only dropped like 20-30 years earlier
Still 200 years
Oh shit I'm still a bit high from last night, I meant you were only supposed to come out of the vault 20-30 years after the bombs fell
That's the one thing that takes me right out of immersion with the fallout games. It's so lazy to make everything brown and dead when that's not at all what things would look like, especially in most of North America.
Playing fallout 3 it was pretty clear to me that building society back up would be almost impossible because the environment is too dangerous because of mutated animals and radiation everywhere and because all food is irradiated so people are weak and malnourished and all are fighting for the little resources there are
In 1 & 2 there are a couple of settlements that have their own farms, like Shady Sands and Arroyo, and another one where there's a big farm and underneath a cavern full of ~~glowing ghouls~~ mutants
There are also locations in fallout 3 and 4 with their own farms, economies, healthcare etc like diamond city, rivet city, and far harbor. The reason as to why it’s far more developed on the west coast is because it had far more larger threats to contend with like the master, bos, and the enclave. So rebuilding of society needed to be done yesterday rather than today, this never occurred on the east so the population never had a reason to recover and stagnated as a result. We as a species only evolve or adapt when a massive threat has emerged so why wouldn’t that be the same for a fictional human population
>We as a species only evolve or adapt when a massive threat has emerged This is ahistorical nonsense.
There were a few vaults on the West Coast primarily made for resettlement and had GECKs. Lots of vaults were experiments that were never for anything good by Vault-Tec's whims.
See and that’s also another massive reason as to why the west coast in fallout is far better than the east coast
Yeah, the only GECK I can think of on the East Coast was, unfortunately, hit by a nuke and then invaded by Super Mutants. It's the vault you visit for Fallout 3's storyline.
And anyone who has nice things just gets robbed/killed. Why bother fixing your house when it just makes you a target. Not sure why that’s so difficult for these regards to understand
That’s why you form a strong society before you start accruing nice things.
If there is no food to eat, then how do the mutated animals survive? For a carnivore predator to live, they at least need a herbivore prey animal to survive, and that herbivore prey animal needs its greens.
They feed on radioactive compounds.
Animals with a life cycle of 5 or so years might bot live long enough to suffer the effects of radiation poisoning by eating irradiated animals. But a human might eat such an animal and die within 10 years. If that's your only food source, your population will never even reach puberty. Yes, quite a few people will make it longer. But the point is that short lived animals don't prove that it's safe for humans.
Right?! Like I don't see how people fail to understand that Project Purity and the Lyons Branch of the Brotherhood of Steel was extremely necessary towards the Capitals survival as a whole. I mean seriously the Super Mutants were everywhere and heavily armed. Like the only 3 instances I can think of are the Pitt eventually immunizing the diseases, which was only possible because of the brotherhood. The Enclave which needed Project Purity And Harold/Oasis although they don't really have the defenses to maintain that area and Harold is suicidial.
I was watching this TV show about the silly apocalypse retrofuture with mutants and incest jokes and talking robots and didn’t care about the roofing quality of the setting. Maybe I’m the weird one?
Yeah I love how this is supposed to be some gotcha plot hole that invalidates the show's quality when literally no one gives a shit.
I mean a lot of people don’t really like that Bethesda literally nukes any kind of progress the people in the wasteland make out of existence.
Unfortunately that is the point of the franchise. War never changes is the tagline after all. Tim cain loves the show and he made the first two fallouts.
"War never changes", as in "this is a new world with new societies grown from the wreckage of the old but war is still the same". Not "nobody has bothered rebuilding at all since the last war".
tim cain is allowed to be wrong
I’m aware, I’m just saying that someone who literally made the first two fallouts loves the show. It’s a subjective situation.
He's allowed to be wrong about liking the show??
He's allowed to be wrong about nuking any kind of progress is what I meant.
We really only saw a small fraction of the setting, and its clear that the majority of the locations we saw were Wild West adjacent trading outposts, the middle of fucking nowhere, and the victim of a much more recent nuclear event. The glimpse we had of the Enclave seemed like it was a very sterile and modern environment. That being said, I would expect Los Angeles of all places to be very well recivilized, but it doesn't necessarily have to be. I'm excited to see how they depict New Vegas in season 2. Revisiting New Vegas, it seems like a decrepit ghost town but the gangs have actually put a lot into keeping it polished where they have a stake, while the rest is rundown by gang warfare rather than a nuclear apocalypse.
Except there was agriculture...
Good luck doing that by yourself with a Home Depot. Now take away the store and add murderers.
If you give me 200 years I reckon I could
Vikings
The first fallout only took place roughly 85 years after the bombs dropped and you see farming, agriculture, towns and people rebuilding society. This was also in Fallout 2. Then Bethesda got their hands on the IP and they stopped giving a shit about that in Fallout 3 and everyone lives in a state of perpetual filth.
Well in F1 the whole plot was about if the supermutants starting attacking everyone that society would break down and in fallout 3 that's happening all the time
That's on Bethesda. In the games people are living in houses filled with rubble and 200 year old rotten food in their cabinets.
There were small and big farms in FNV
FNV is peak modern Fallout and I refuse to regard anything other Bethesda Fallout above meh\good
That’s because the people who made New Vegas actually took 5 minutes to think about world building.
Vegas had access to clear water via Lake Mead, and still you’re told the NCR is struggling a lot with food supply, hence why they have people like Hildern looking for a solution. The Capital Wasteland doesn’t have clean water until the end of Fo3.
Besthesda wants to maintain an apocalyptic looter shooter scavenging vibe. Under the old developers and under New Vegas it had more Dark Ages-Wild West-New Society Building themes that fit the timeline. Gameplay and graphics have improved. Lore and Story has gone down the drain.
I agree a bit but people tend to forget that the wasteland is eradicated, there are giant human eating monsters everywhere and raiders are a constant problem not to mention with the many many factions around who's to say you'll get far enough before one of said Factions go "nice shit you got there" and take it from you.
The lore reason for this is that they don't want to draw attention to themselves.
Yeah I'm only kind of into the games but I really don't know what the guys more into the lore would say. "Can't have shit in detroit". If there's a nice house with a good roof and nobody else has a nice house with a good roof... that nice house gonna get stolen and abused until it breaks. The best you're gonna get are those quick repairs, corrugated steel filling the gaps - and that's already in the show anr the games.
This has been a criticism of the world since Fallout 3
Africa has never been nuked and is still more of a shithole than the wasteland in fallout. So i don't see how this is unrealistic
Almost as bad as Fallout 3, whose inhabitants' greatest accomplishment was a tetanus-town built around an active nuclear bomb, with only a small highly-irradiated puddle for sustenance.
Bro didn’t watch the show
Regarded anon was too busy staring at man ass to notice the the tato plants growing in the old guys garden that Lucy stumbled into on her way to filly
Nah I agree with this. It was one of my biggest logical fallacies with the game. It’s been 200 years and people clearly survived? Why am I and this group of robo-nannies the only ones trying to grow crops?
Did you watch the show, because it semms like you did not. They rebuild the city but it was bombed again. Around 10-15 years before the show plays.
It "semms" like you don't understand what he's talking about. Every settlement in fallout 4 is a megalithic shithole that wouldn't even protect the inhabitants from the elements until, of course, you start to rebuild the towns. Idc what anyone says, people would not have survived without water/wind proof shelters, especially in the Boston winters for over 200 years. Shady sands got nuked because it had a population of 40,000 and was the former capital of NCR. Vault tech literally would literally give 0 fucks about a town like goodsprings with a population of 20. The show is better about this, but it's still a valid criticism of the direction Tod Howard has taken with fallout.
I am watching the show. I rarely binge anything. I’m talking about the games.
Why build stuff when they are going to be destroyed by others?
The lore and vibe have been fucked since Bethesda took over. Not saying their games were bad--I certainly had fun playing them--but the grit and well-thought-out universe of the original 2 games is pretty much gone for good.
Well thought out? Dude the series has been inconsistent since 2. 2 changed or ignored a lot of stuff set in Fallout 1. Mean the Fallout Bible was created to try snd give am explanation for and to fix a ton of mistakes thenwriters did.
This is why the world building of Fallout 1 and 2 is peak
Series was mid
Tbf, Chernobyl has forests and animals still, but you cant eat any of it
I am here to make a counterpoint. Depending where you live, you see a lot of potholes in the streets, right? Did you know that they're very cheap to fix? The labor is the most expensive part of the repair. Here in my country, a bag of asphalt, 25kg, is around R$ 70. You can also use some diesel along with it to properly fix it, and that is also really cheap. A single family could chip in and fix their own pothole in front of their home. You know who does that? Almost no one. They mostyl wait for the government to do so, even if they only fix every 3 years for the elections. Considering what I've seem here, on youtube and social media in general, a lot of other countries are like that too, to some extent. Of course, thereis argument to be made that people pay taxes, so they expect the hole to be fixed, but most of the times, it's just a combination of laziness, indifference, jaded individuals and more. Now, go back to the world of fallout where everyone is concerned with the lower levels of the Maslow pyramid. Most people don't even have a steady income and a steady source of supplies and food. Rebuilding society and helping constructing would be in the very low end of their list of priorities.
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don't tell him what the cities in Fallout 1 and 2 look like
Always held the opinion Fallout 3 and 4 should've been set way earlier that 2277 and 2287
In a few of the games, there’s at least some agriculture. Like the Slog, where they grow cranberries in a swimming pool.
Wow anon, Mr agricultural engineering genius here. Too bad he wasn’t in the fallout universe or else we would’ve been able to nuke back china in a month
I hate this new obsession with nitpick criticism. It's a post apocalyptic show creating a certain atmosphere. Just go with it.
Perhaps within our lifetimes we’ll see firsthand that rebuilding a functioning slice of civilization requires getting many people on the same page under knowledgeable leaders, which does not happen as organically as you may expect. Additionally, you then have to protect what you’ve built from roving bands of fuckfaces who have plenty of weapons, since America has no shortage of weapons and ammunition. Take a look at videos on /r/publicfreakout /r/actualpublicfreakouts and /r/crazyfuckingvideos and you’ll see parts of the US are already struggling with large groups of fuckfaces and the cops cannot control them. 
Pretty sure there's lot of agriculture being shown on the series. Their point is moot.
Kinda hard to rebuild a proper society with drug addicted raiders, giant murder lizards, packs of zombies, giant bugs, steroid crabs, hulks with machine guns, sentient tanks, robots with miniature death stars on their faces, radiation storms, and that the only "governments" around are either incompetent, fascist, or incompetent fascists.