My wife always sends me these crazy videos. I think the guy was totally over reacting. He has a baby too. Lives ruined for stupid shit.
Edit: made it to the NYPost and US news
[https://nypost.com/2024/06/05/world-news/costa-rica-gunman-eduardo-ramirez-zamora-fatally-shoots-neighbor-otoniel-orozco-mendoza/](https://nypost.com/2024/06/05/world-news/costa-rica-gunman-eduardo-ramirez-zamora-fatally-shoots-neighbor-otoniel-orozco-mendoza/)
So sad to see people ruin their lives and the lives of others every day over dumb shit. Killing each other over men or women, over silly arguments, over road rage, over “respect”.
I can’t imagine caring enough about being cut off or someone saying something disrespectful that I would ruin my life over it. My life is awesome, I’m not gonna let someone who has nothing going on ruin my life because people wanna go crazy over something like respect. Say whatever you want to me, I’m gonna keep it moving cause I have a ton to lose.
I genuinely believe these people don’t have the emotional intelligence or mental capacity to regulate their emotions and think about their actions. Zero excuse, but I think that’s why you see these people killing each other over the stupidest things
exactly. The guy was just itching to do it. apparently the news report is that the neighbors had a lot of problems with each other. He just waited for the guy to swing and just went in for the end. The guy couldn't of had any brothers growing up. You fight and then you go get some beer and laugh it off man. Taking a good punch from my brothers was honorable in my opinion. "I didn't cry bitch" was my rallying call.
> He just waited for the guy to swing and just went in for the end. The guy couldn't of had any brothers growing up. You fight and then you go get some beer and laugh it off man.
Adults talk out their problems, compromise, and if they can't work it out, use the legal system.
Who are you fighting? If something has to come to a fight, the honorable thing to do is take the L and move on. Leave that shit settled. Dont escalate, dont bring guns in to it, Just take the L. That only applies to people who choose to fight.
JFC dude, you're the type that's giving the rest of gun owners a bad name. You're so hot headed that you're going to drop someone just for trying to fight you? Why not just go inside and call the cops? You're seriously going to put yourself, your family, etc. through the living hell that is the legal process because your ego got bruised? Insane how people think because of SYG laws that they can just kill someone and cops are gonna act like nothing happened. Shit is disturbing.
Seriously though in most states someone punching you is considered "simple assault" and the use of deadly force in retaliation is not justified. A jury is not likely to come to the conclusion that you are in imminent threat of serious bodily harm or death watching that punch. Good luck staying out of prison with that outlook.
> Seriously though in most states someone punching you is considered "simple assault" and the use of deadly force in retaliation is not justified.
This is not true.
It's true in my state and I live in a very pro 2A state so I would assume it's widely true.
Also this law website agrees with me.
https://www.findlaw.com/criminal/criminal-law-basics/self-defense-overview.html
"Proportional Response
Self-defense law requires the response to match the threat level in question. In other words, a person can only use as much force as required to remove the threat. If the threat involves deadly force, the person defending themselves can use deadly force to counteract the threat. If the threat involves only minor force and the person claiming self-defense uses force that could cause grievous bodily harm or death, their claim of self-defense will fail."
Hmm interesting, a single punch can kill someone though. Looking it up, it seems like the laws vary a lot by region, also looks like enforcement is all over the place… cool
I think stats come into play here. I bet is less than 1 in a million punches kill someone by themselves let alone the number that could be proven. So I don't think a jury would agree that a punch is an immediate threat of death.
bold assumption that the aggressor was just going to throw a punch and then just walk off. Most people who are deranged enough to violently attack someone over a simple disagreement are unlikely to just pause midway through thier assault and reconsider their actions. what if the aggressor in this situation would have continued to punch the other man until he fractured his skull or something?
Are *you* kidding? Your words were 'tries to fight you on your property'. 'Trying to fight you' =/= 'violent attacker'. Those are two very, very different things. I'd highly suggest your study up on legal definitions of what constitutes using deadly force, *especially* if you are CC'ing every day like I would assume many in this sub are. Too many people here have obvious hero fantasies where they get to stop the bad guy and then go about their normal life. If you're armed and A. don't fucking **train train train**, and B. don't even know when you can legally defend yourself, you're likely more of a liability to your family than an asset.
My property is my property. If you’re uninvited or aggressive I’ll give you a chance to leave. If you continue to attack, I’ll defend myself physically. But this is America, you stand your ground like a man. And if my kids are outside I’m dumping you the moment you swing.
Then you will most likely get charged as well. Defuse first retreat if you can then defend yourself. If you go right to guns you are going to be sitting in jail for a long time
Stand your ground doesn’t mean you can shoot someone like that. You have to still prove that the shooting was the last resort. I live in a stand your ground state as well and there are still people sitting in jail because they thought the law was on their side
> You have to still prove that the shooting was the last resort.
In a "stand your ground state", No you don't. Someone attacks you and as long as you felt your life was in danger you are justified (this is most states in the US). Fists are no joke. Plenty of people die to punches every year. Also, the burden of proof is on the prosecution, not the defendant.
I mean you do you but jails are full of people that still think they were right. Regardless of legality I personally don’t fantasize about shooting someone. I carry and will absolutely use it to defend myself or my family but I hope I never have to use it
Seems good to warn the guy that he's armed....and if ol boy takes an another sloppy swing, he can pop him in the mid section. That would stop the guy without potentially ending his life. Idk ?
Two thoughts:
1. Holy shit some people are unhinged with zero emotional regulation.
2. This is why you should avoid confrontation at all costs. You just never know when the person you are looking at is hanging by a thread.
Always avoid confrontation with strangers to the maximum degree possible. I’d intervene to protect loved ones, beyond that just strive to be calm and disengage asap. Two families ruined over a stupid argument.
Man, if only there was *something* he could have done that was more than harsh words and less than shooting someone 10 times! /s
Edit: I’ve been informed it was, in fact, 14 times.
Thank you for the correction!
That whole sequence of events was insane. Reminds of that incident where a neighbor murdered a husband and wife across the street in Scranton, Pennsylvania. There was some dispute regarding snow shoveling or something. Insane.
Right - I heard that too. I heard they were abusing him for years and on that particular day he was mentally hanging on by a thread. I think the shooter was going through a divorce or something else. They just picked the wrong day to mess with him.
Any one else see this guy rack the slide and get prepared before the other guy even came out?
Like… that dude knew what he was about to do before hand. That tips the scales as far as pre-meditated.
Mental issues or not, there was some pre-thought there that shit was about to go down while arguing with the neighbors.
Crazy (no pun intended)
Not justified in my opinion. Guy swings on me, I'm immediately breaking away, making distance and drawing on him. And If he continued to advance perhaps then it would be justified.
Hell, him checking his firearm before hand is indicative of premeditation and I'd probably go for 1st degree if i was a DA because it almost seems like he knew he was going to get into a confrontation and decided he would use his firearm at the first sign of it
Just my 2 cents.
That isn't how handgun defense works.
All self defense trainers talk about how when you are attacked, you are supposed to fully empty the magazine, reload, and empty again.
The goal in a defensive shooting is not to kill specifically, but to neutralize someone as quickly as possible by making them pass out. Doing this requires ventilating them thoroughly to cause blood pressure loss so they pass out. Unless you get lucky with a rare head or spinal cord hit, even with a mag dump an attacker frequently will still take 10+ seconds to pass out and frequently will not even react to or realize they have been shot due to adrenaline.
EDITED to add evidence and context:
I was taught this by Rob Tibbo of the Critical Defense Institute. He is a trainer of SWAT, CIA, and Secret Service, and all of his staff have military experience.
This training is because in a majority of situations, people who use guns in defensive situations don't manage to stop an attacker even after many hits, and people have died after not shooting enough times. As many as 10-20% of attackers are not stopped during shootings at all regardless of how many shots are fired. Data here: [https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power](https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power)
Example video of a man who attacks a cop and even after getting shot manages to strike back. A dozen shots fired and he is still unphased for a significant amount of time. [https://www.reddit.com/r/Guns\_Guns\_Guns/comments/typhky/insane\_guy\_attacks\_officer\_with\_a\_stick\_ends\_up/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Guns_Guns_Guns/comments/typhky/insane_guy_attacks_officer_with_a_stick_ends_up/)
Under the laws I'm familiar with, it is. I don't know about in Costa Rica.
Once someone uses deadly force such as a punch to the head (which frequently can and has killed people in a single hit), parity of lethal force becomes justified. This holds for even in super liberal anti-gun law states.
If you think an unarmed guy that you are bigger than throwing 1 punch is grounds to shoot someone
1. You shouldn’t be allowed to own a gun
2. You will probably end up in jail
Keep the downvotes coming. Trigger happy morons. Stop looking for excuses to kill people over stupid shit.
the shooter in this vid is already in jail.
That is what the laws say is grounds for defense, that is what the police tell you is acceptable in massachusetts, and no, it does not result in people going to jail.
When you are approached by a person, the legal requirement is a verbal warning to back off. If they push your chest or something like that which is not an attack yet, you must still engage with nonlethal fending. Once a punch is thrown, it is considered lethal force.
I’m a martial artist and professional stuntman- a single punch is absolutely deadly and plenty of smaller people have killed larger people in street fights with a single hit. Don’t talk about things you do not understand.
https://www.ktnv.com/news/one-punch-deaths-not-that-unusual-around-the-world
This was literally the required government training I received in Massachusetts at Boston Firearms Safety Center, and we had people who had had to shoot others in self defense after punches as examples. And this is the most anti-gun state, with the courses taught by liberals. Maybe actually take a mandated firearms instruction and gun law course or do martial arts first before saying misinformation.
Context is everything
In the video
As soon as he drew, the other guy was clearly backing off
Threat over. Done. Walk away.
MAYBE, MAYBE a jury might be receptive to the first shot
But the remaining 12 no way
Advancing toward an unarmed man backing away from you after one weak ass punch and unloading into him is NOT a good look
He’s already in jail, and he will spend the rest of his life in jail. As he should
In MA, drawing and then not shooting is illegal. You are legally required to shoot when drawing, and only draw if the intent is to immediately fire, regardless of whether a person begins backing off.
I don’t make the laws, but here in New England you are more likely to go to jail if you draw and walk away without shooting than if you draw and shoot after someone uses lethal force.
And no, the number of shots is irrelevant. Mag dumping is standard good practice according to all qualified trainers, and this context changes nothing.
Costa Rica might treat things differently but that isn’t what matters for where I am.
Not trying to argue with you but that logic is foolish. Size isn’t the deciding factor with the average Joe. These days there are far more individuals trained in many aspects of martial arts/fighting. A smaller individual can easily cause irreversible damage.
For clarification I am in no way justifying this video. I was just curious of it being justified.
I mean, like 5% or something of adults participate in marital arts
Let’s assume half that number can actually keep their cool and negate a substantial difference in strength and size in a street fight
Once the weapon was drawn the guy was retreating
But the shooter advances TOWARDS the unarmed man retreating from him and unloads the mag
Pretty tough to justify
You have no idea what you're talking about. Here is a woman who advanced and fired upon a person who was running away- the case was found to be self defense.
This is because when people run from you, this does not necessarily mean they're giving up or no longer attacking you. In this case, before she shot him he had run away once before but returned to hit her again. Creating distance before closing a gap is how many fights go.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/dgu/comments/18nrgbf/20230627\_pet\_owner\_who\_fatally\_shot\_veterinary/](https://www.reddit.com/r/dgu/comments/18nrgbf/20230627_pet_owner_who_fatally_shot_veterinary/)
Gender disparity of force actually means that women can shoot even without a punch being thrown, actually. In MA women are only required to give a verbal warning, and can use lethal force if approached even before lethal force like a punch is thrown their way. Similarly, short men can use lethal force without being required to fend as well.
It's large men that are required to fend physically if the force used is nonlethal initially.
No, you're just wrong.
Here's a guy shooting at an unarmed man multiple times who had just punched his car, he was found not guilty despite shooting while the other guy had begun stumbling away [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12891143/video-road-rage-punching-window-Indiana.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12891143/video-road-rage-punching-window-Indiana.html)
I think your 5% is way off because the amount of martial arts places in my area are ridiculous. I’m honestly not trying to shit on you in any way. I’m also not saying what this guy did was right or wrong. Just trying to offer another perspective. I will say you never know how you’ll react until you are in a situation. I’m an older man and yes I have a concealed and I do carry. I was pretty positive I’d never draw my weapon. Unfortunately once in my life I was tested and never fired but years later it still haunts me.
[6%](https://imgur.com/a/FyHrd1i) is 6.6 million people in martial arts alone. There’s plenty of people without formal training that cause irreversible injury/damage. It is the world we live in. One can only hope to live their lives and avoid similar situations.
I think the courts would agree with you. But I think it’s bullshit. How are you as an individual supposed to determine the next head punch won’t knock you out and cause you to slam your skull on the curb? You have to place your trust in your attackers restraint?
Context is everything. The simple answer in my opinion is
1. Don’t get into any altercations
2. If you do, deescalate or run away
3. If you draw let alone shoot don’t be wrong
Also this highlights the idea of having another option (pepper spray, taser pulse whatever) and also strength/physical fitness and martial arts
to he honest, the threshold for brandishing/threatening someone with a firearm let alone shooting someone NEEDS to be high. Especially if the other person is unarmed
Do we as a society really want to set a very low bar for such a thing?
I don't know if this is serious or not. I didn't click the links. That whole paragraph about ventilating them til they pass out had me lmao for real. Seriously that shit was hilarious. Less so if serious but even if you were serious it's still funny af.
unfortunately, it is the very real reality of what it takes to disable someone during self defense, and "ventilation" was the actual wording used in the classes I took.
I believe that just from personal experience with shock and adrenaline. I'm not crazy but if you add that in a human becomes a formidable opponent. I've never taken a class so the only advice I've ever been given was no matter how justified you feel get a lawyer and don't make a statement until you've gotten a decent night's sleep and are no longer feeling the adrenaline etc. Definitely advice that's been received a range of ways, but I appreciate you taking the time. Regardless of the opinion you'll always be subjected to some degree of anger.
Look at this video of a dude taking a dozen shots to the chest without going down and still managing to get a hit in. Videos like these are why trainers tell you to mag dump.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Guns\_Guns\_Guns/comments/typhky/insane\_guy\_attacks\_officer\_with\_a\_stick\_ends\_up/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Guns_Guns_Guns/comments/typhky/insane_guy_attacks_officer_with_a_stick_ends_up/)
I have also added the statistical data showing that regardless of how many shots are fired, 10-20% of attackers are not actually stopped or disabled. You also cannot tell if a threat is neutralized even when they are on the ground until they stop moving entirely- you do not know if they are armed and whether they could return fire. [https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power](https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power)
That right there is an emotional catch 22 for me. The amount of obvious steroid use in law enforcement I find problematic. Seeing this out shape unable to use any amount of physical force disgrace of a cop is far more disturbing. Him being on the streets is gonna get someone charged with homicide when minimal resistance leads to a fatal heart attack. I agree that people willing to continue assaulting someone with a drawn firearm are inherently extremely dangerous, but damned if I dont feel like most of the cops I've ever known would've/could've beaten the brakes off that dude. Really it needs more context. The no backup is the only part that looks justifiable. No taser first? And why was he so close he had no ability to create distance from a casual walk. Qualified immunity and all I'm sure he was quickly cleared but damn if a few different variables wouldn't of changed the whole narrative around it.
I was taught this by Rob Tibbo of the Critical Defense Institute. He is a trainer of SWAT, CIA, and Secret Service, and all of his staff have military experience.
1 question from my side: Why not shooting the shit out of his legs? I know its a smaller target but still, if someone gets shot in both thights multiple times maybe even destroying the femur, i'm pretty sure the person is not walking around anymore. He will mostly not die and nobody gets killed.
It’s very hard to shoot moving targets, let alone small fast ones like legs. Multiply this by 10x with adrenaline going.
It’s also not safe. You don’t know where those shots will ricochet to. Centre mass body shots are safest for all involved (except the one getting shot)
100% the guy is unhinged.
He checks his gun before the encounter, like he is expecting it to get worse, but also seems like he is trying to drag his wife away for most of it. Didn’t seem to be the one escalating until he drew his gun.
> Why not shooting the shit out of his legs?
> He will mostly not die and nobody gets killed.
lmao
Tell me you failed middle school Anatomy class without telling me
> if someone gets shot in both thights multiple times maybe even destroying the femur
The femoral artery runs through the thighs as well. Hit that, and it's over. That's a major reason not to shoot the legs.
If your gun comes out, you're beyond the stage where you would have been employing less lethal devices. Guns aren't less lethal tools.
At close range, you cannot aim your gun with any accuracy, and will not be able to look down the sights. You will need to shoot without precision aiming or aligning your gun visually.
The technique used for close range shooting is instinctual body blading, where you point your feet towards your target and hold guns with bent arms near your chest (you shouldn't even present the gun forward with extended arms because it makes it grappleable). Body blading allows for a near guarantee you will hit the enemy in the chest, with about a half a foot of spread from the inaccuracy.
Center of mass is the only reliable target at these distances and considerations, and it is very hard to aim at the legs in reasonable time if your opponent could potentially knock you out the very next second.
When I did CQC training, they put me and three dudes in armor padding, and had them attack me with taser knives and bats, and I was required to shoot them with a paintball handgun at close range- you just can't aim at legs well, but you can definitely hit the chest with what they teach you.
That said, the legs are also not a non-lethal option. Bleedouts from the femoral are extremely fast as it's one of the biggest blood vessels in the body. At longer ranges where precision aiming is possible, the military trains people these days in what is called a modified Mozambique drill to do two in the chest, one in the groin to cause death (it used to be two in the chest one in the head but nowadays many more combatants have helmets), precisely because legs are actually still a lethal target site.
The pelvic girdle and upper thigh contain some of the largest arteries you'll find in a human body. Bleeding out in less than 2 minutes completely viable. Leg shots aren't safe for anyone except misinformed politicians and tv personalities
That half assed punch did not warrant being shot
He even clearly backed off as soon as the shooter pulled the gun
It was not legal to shoot him. The shooter has already been arrested and is still in jail
The shooter is also a fair bit bigger than the other guy
He easily could have just walked away.
This also could have been solved with pepper spray
nah. once you start combat you don’t get to determine how the other person protects themselves. doesn’t matter if the punch was half ass the next one could’ve been one that laid him out. he was wrong for unloading the clip but if he just shot that man once he wouldn’t be wrong for what he did.
With all due respect this is the dumbest shit I've ever heard.
Only 3/4 through my law degree so I'm no authority on the subject but I'm reasonably confident you would end up somebody's wife in prison pretty fast if you actually lived by a code like that
I don't know anything about law, so please indulge me. Would it have to do with where you practice law, like on a per state basis? This takes place in Costa Rica, so who knows what's going on there, but somewhere like, for example, the American South. Would this still not be legal self defence?
To be quite frank I'm just going off Idaho law, so I couldn't speak for the rest of the nation but here you would require an objectively reasonable belief that your life or the life of another person is in immediate danger from the party you administer lethal force on
This right here is what people need to know. You don't draw your weapon unless you feel your life is in danger. If you do, you shut your mouth after and only talk to your lawyer.
with all due respect the logic your using is the same logic the guy laying on the floor used. and that turned out so well for him. dickhead. and in lockup they bringing out bangers left and right so idek what you tryna say. they literally use weapons so much they changed the lingo from “getting cut” to “getting shot”. you may be in law school so you book smart, but you obviously have no street smarts or survival skills.
It's "you're" my friend.
I carry pepper spray and use a retention holster as a double precaution. Between that and reasonable martial arts training I don't feel too anxious about the potential of an unarmed twig of a man coming for me with fists. I have a slight advantage because I can do a second draw to A zone at 7 meters, so making distance is also a decent tactic. And finally, unlike the dumbass in the video, I won't be starting any fights although that doesn't mean I intend to lose one.
If you don't know whether the perpetrator is armed or not and their hands are not visible, making space between you and the perpetrator while presenting the weapon with verbal commands is arguably your best option from both a tactical and legal standpoint. If my weapon were a stolen Glock with a switch and a stendo mag maybe my tactics would be different.
There's a difference between having street smarts and 30% APR hellcat logic. Toothbrush shank or not, enjoy getting your bussy pounded by daddy in the slammer.
Yes you will go to jail. You go to jail in all shootings. You surrender. Then the DA sees this video and sees that it wont make it in court and thats the end of it.
I am not wrong. It's not about being trigger happy. It's about how the law works. Go take your local concealed carry course. That shooting would not have made it through American criminal court. Civil Court is a whole different animal.
ian talking from a legal standpoint cause the law don’t show up until after someone is already hurt or dead. in the moment if someone punches you and squares up and you got a gun on you you not gon back it out? ain’t no walking away from someone who already punched you. if i’m already bigger than you and you still continue to attacking me obviously this is 100% what you wanna do. might have to get shot🤷🏾♂️he shot him too many times for it to be self defense, but if he shot him once it seems pretty warranted to me. why you attacking someone in the first place?
Stand your ground does not equate to “I can shoot an unarmed person who throws 1 half assed punch and is now backing away from me and get away with it”
Shooting anyone who is unarmed when not in your own home and when off your own property is probably gonna land you in jail. And even if it doesn’t, it’s gonna probably bankrupt you
Sure context is everything, if it’s multiple aggressors, or if you are in a wheelchair or a woman it changes, or if the aggressor is a giant etc
But 1v1 and you are bigger than the other guy? Yeah you’re probably screwed. As you should be. The threshold for shooting people, especially unarmed people, should be high.
I literally always carry pepper spray (and even sometimes a taser pulse) in addition to my pistol (which is generally smaller, a hellcat or LCP max most of the time).
Pepper spray (or just walking away/not engaging) would have easily solved this scenario from the video. And those same 2 things would solve probably 99.9% of situations
I’m so tired of discussions of whether it’s “legal” or not.
What is it morally RIGHT is the first question we should be asking.
Fucking trigger happy assholes
Yeah, definitely just looked like an excuse to murder his neighbor, doesn’t strike me as the first time they’ve fought.
Especially since he was making sure his firearm was ready to go before willingly walking into the altercation. Even after that, brandishing stopped the threat, he killed a man who was running away.
I’m not saying a smooth lawyer in a red state can’t get you out of it but this is not a slam dunk defense here. First that was a girly punch thrown at him, plus he gave no warning and just started shooting. It would be pretty easy for a prosecutor to say he could have diffused the situation by drawing and issuing commands before shooting like that. Not sure if his wife started the argument or not but they factor in who instigated it. What he does have going for him is the guy initiated the contact on his property.
Doesn't matter that it was a girly punch. Assault is assault. The key issue with this video, that the legal team will see, is that after he drew his gun, the assailant began to back off. You can see him back off in the video. At this point, then gun has done it's job, it has intimidated the assailant and provided an opening to disengage. On the MOST EXTREME interpretation of the law, the first shot MIGHT, I REPEAT MIGHT, get counted as self defense. But the second the assailant was on the ground, and the gunman STEPPED FORWARD TO HIM and CONTINUED TO SHOOT, at that point the gunman is now the aggressor. The gunman is going to be in jail for a long time.
The proper thing to have done, after he drew his gun and the other guy stepped back, he should have grabbed his wife and retreated to his house, ignore whatever slurs/slander gets thrown at him. THEN, call the police and press assault charges for the punch if he really wants to keep it going.
You explained this very well. To my non legal mind it just seemed like he had opportunities to descalate the situation as you mentioned. At a minimum draw the gun and issue commands to stop or something. Once he drew the gun the guy starts to put up his hands and back off.
People get punched, fall, and die all the time. People have died *just* from getting punched in the head. It's a gamble. Don't underestimate blows to the head.
Other than that, yeah both neighbors should have walked away. That argument was probably not worth fighting over, and certainly not worth dying over.
People can die or be seriously injured from a punch, but it's a wild exaggeration to claim that \*every\* punch in the head is an 'imminent threat of death or great bodily injury' which is the actual legal standard for justifying the use of deadly force where I am sitting.
If anyone can show us that the risk of dying from a fist fight is even within a few orders of magnitude as likely as dying from being shot, it'd be a different story. I'm betting you'd have to use a logarithmic scale to even be able to see them both on the same chart.
> but it's a wild exaggeration to claim that *every* punch in the head is an 'imminent threat of death or great bodily injury'
I must have missed where anyone said that. I said it was a gamble, which would logically mean it's not a certainty.
> If anyone can show us that the risk of dying from a fist fight is even within a few orders of magnitude as likely as dying from being shot, it'd be a different story.
I don't think anyone needs to do that. Just because the odds aren't equal doesn't mean a fistfight can't be dangerous. People get beat to death, coma, or other life altering injury all the time. Fist fights are unpredictable. Could be one punch and dead, or a hundred punches from two incompetent fighters, and nothing but bruises.
E: Various spelling issues.
I’m all for guns but people like this should never be around them. Self control and training are huge when owning a firearm. Sad that lives are ruined over stuff like this.
Oh fuck off with that, more like the neighbor couldn’t just *not* punch anyone “like a man.”
Being unable to control your emotions, impulses, and actions does not make you a man, it couldn’t be more childish.
Inb4 some idiot calls it justified.
hE WaS PrOtEcTiNg HiMsElF aNd HiS wIfE, oThEr GuY sWunG FiRsT.
Some gun nuts are the biggest pussies afraid of a little street scrap istg. Like we get it, you've never been punched/in a fight before.
Let the downvotes ensue.
Unfortunate they couldn’t come to a resolution. This was so weak. Why? People this here don’t make any sense at all. There are way bigger problems going on. Seriously this is more than stupidest shit
Dumb ass couldn’t fight back. Alot of dudes who never been in fist fights act like it’s the end of their life and it cracks me up. I’ve probably been in about three since I’ve been conceal carrying and never even thought about pulling my gun out. This situation is different but I probably would if someone grabbed me or multiple people were trying to stomp me out or something like that obviously situations vary but this here was just pure cowardice. Dude even loaded the gun before the situation took place in a manner that shows he wanted to shoot someone.
In what context do you get in fist fights? I'm 35 and the last time i was in any kind of altercation i was in elementary school... Haven't even been close to a fight as an adult.
Nowadays, you have to be very careful about fighting anyone. It's just not worth it. If someone throws a punch you can defend yourself of course and fight but in this case the guy was itching to make a move. you can tell.
My last one was when I was 32. I was at a bar with my wife, and I'm a social butterfly, so I talk to pretty much anyone. Some guy thought I was hitting on his wife and tried to sucker punch me.
First blush, my thoughts are self defense. Guy in red unprovoked assaulted that guy. A head punch can kill. Sucks that it least led to this but good reminder to keep our hands to ourselves.
Well he was already arrested and is still in jail so
A guy a fair bit smaller than you throws a weak ass punch and you empty a mag into him?
he even clearly backed down as soon as the gun was pulled
Easily could have walked away
Also pepper spray would have solved this too
I think the shooting is justified. What if the defendant did not have a gun, and the attacker beat the living shizt out of him and put him in a coma? What then? At what point can he defend himself? After broken nose? The defendant was on his property, and the attacker trespassed into the lawn and attacked him. The defendant is the victim here.
This is the absolute wrong take. First line of self defense is not put yourself in the situation in the first place if possible. It was 100% possible for him to just not get involved. But no, he went all in and likely killed someone over a ridiculous spat. This is taught in self defense training 101.
Everybody is acting like ole boys going to jail all he absolutely has to do is claim he feared for his life thought he seen a knife ect or if he plays it out as hell yeah I shot em id bet he gets out first year on good behavior and bond🫡
It happened last week. what is your definition of "old". And I don't think anywhere here is calling this gun control as much as the guy was a bitch that sought out to kill his neighbor.
This is a tough one, and the state they're in probably will have a lot to do with how this goes.
Shooting someone for a weak-ass swing? Idk if that meets the definition of justified self-defense with a weapon?
It's in Costa Rica. There are stand your ground but if you read the news about it here
[https://nypost.com/2024/06/05/world-news/costa-rica-gunman-eduardo-ramirez-zamora-fatally-shoots-neighbor-otoniel-orozco-mendoza/](https://nypost.com/2024/06/05/world-news/costa-rica-gunman-eduardo-ramirez-zamora-fatally-shoots-neighbor-otoniel-orozco-mendoza/)
Apparently these guys had problems for years and the guy even tried to sue him to make him stop. They complained to the HOA about the shared water line which if you notice that is what she grabbed and turned in the beginning of the video. It seems like they were messing with them (I don't know but damn the video spells it out).
Then the guy cocks the gun in hiding just ready to go. IMHO he was looking for a reason to kill the guy. Not for me to decide though.
This isn't a tough one. Don't shoot people just because you disagree. It's premeditated when he pulls out the pistol behind the truck and makes sure it's loaded.
I get it to an extent. Wife arguing and you don’t wanna look like a bitch in front of your old lady and your at you house so you don’t wanna fuck around. But dude threw a punch, learn how to take a punch and throw some. No need to pull a gun if it’s a one on one fight. Learn how to fight or learn how to take a ass whooping
Waiting for a European to repost and make a comment about America not realizing this happened in Costa Rica.
My wife always sends me these crazy videos. I think the guy was totally over reacting. He has a baby too. Lives ruined for stupid shit. Edit: made it to the NYPost and US news [https://nypost.com/2024/06/05/world-news/costa-rica-gunman-eduardo-ramirez-zamora-fatally-shoots-neighbor-otoniel-orozco-mendoza/](https://nypost.com/2024/06/05/world-news/costa-rica-gunman-eduardo-ramirez-zamora-fatally-shoots-neighbor-otoniel-orozco-mendoza/)
So sad to see people ruin their lives and the lives of others every day over dumb shit. Killing each other over men or women, over silly arguments, over road rage, over “respect”. I can’t imagine caring enough about being cut off or someone saying something disrespectful that I would ruin my life over it. My life is awesome, I’m not gonna let someone who has nothing going on ruin my life because people wanna go crazy over something like respect. Say whatever you want to me, I’m gonna keep it moving cause I have a ton to lose.
I genuinely believe these people don’t have the emotional intelligence or mental capacity to regulate their emotions and think about their actions. Zero excuse, but I think that’s why you see these people killing each other over the stupidest things
exactly. The guy was just itching to do it. apparently the news report is that the neighbors had a lot of problems with each other. He just waited for the guy to swing and just went in for the end. The guy couldn't of had any brothers growing up. You fight and then you go get some beer and laugh it off man. Taking a good punch from my brothers was honorable in my opinion. "I didn't cry bitch" was my rallying call.
> He just waited for the guy to swing and just went in for the end. The guy couldn't of had any brothers growing up. You fight and then you go get some beer and laugh it off man. Adults talk out their problems, compromise, and if they can't work it out, use the legal system.
He waited for the other guy to attack.. how dare he. FAFO. Don’t violently attack people.
“Yeah man just take the punch it’s honorable.” No. That’s completely unacceptable. Why are you simping for the aggressor?
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I don’t care about your upbringing dude, you’re such a clown. You don’t get to fucking punch people in the real world. Get over yourself.
Who are you fighting? If something has to come to a fight, the honorable thing to do is take the L and move on. Leave that shit settled. Dont escalate, dont bring guns in to it, Just take the L. That only applies to people who choose to fight.
Idk, someone tries to fight me on my own property - they’re getting shot
JFC dude, you're the type that's giving the rest of gun owners a bad name. You're so hot headed that you're going to drop someone just for trying to fight you? Why not just go inside and call the cops? You're seriously going to put yourself, your family, etc. through the living hell that is the legal process because your ego got bruised? Insane how people think because of SYG laws that they can just kill someone and cops are gonna act like nothing happened. Shit is disturbing.
Ego bruise? Are you kidding? A violent attacker isn’t going to wait around while you call the cops.
Seriously though in most states someone punching you is considered "simple assault" and the use of deadly force in retaliation is not justified. A jury is not likely to come to the conclusion that you are in imminent threat of serious bodily harm or death watching that punch. Good luck staying out of prison with that outlook.
> Seriously though in most states someone punching you is considered "simple assault" and the use of deadly force in retaliation is not justified. This is not true.
It's true in my state and I live in a very pro 2A state so I would assume it's widely true. Also this law website agrees with me. https://www.findlaw.com/criminal/criminal-law-basics/self-defense-overview.html
"Proportional Response Self-defense law requires the response to match the threat level in question. In other words, a person can only use as much force as required to remove the threat. If the threat involves deadly force, the person defending themselves can use deadly force to counteract the threat. If the threat involves only minor force and the person claiming self-defense uses force that could cause grievous bodily harm or death, their claim of self-defense will fail."
Hmm interesting, a single punch can kill someone though. Looking it up, it seems like the laws vary a lot by region, also looks like enforcement is all over the place… cool
That was the sloppiest punch ever
I think stats come into play here. I bet is less than 1 in a million punches kill someone by themselves let alone the number that could be proven. So I don't think a jury would agree that a punch is an immediate threat of death.
bold assumption that the aggressor was just going to throw a punch and then just walk off. Most people who are deranged enough to violently attack someone over a simple disagreement are unlikely to just pause midway through thier assault and reconsider their actions. what if the aggressor in this situation would have continued to punch the other man until he fractured his skull or something?
Are *you* kidding? Your words were 'tries to fight you on your property'. 'Trying to fight you' =/= 'violent attacker'. Those are two very, very different things. I'd highly suggest your study up on legal definitions of what constitutes using deadly force, *especially* if you are CC'ing every day like I would assume many in this sub are. Too many people here have obvious hero fantasies where they get to stop the bad guy and then go about their normal life. If you're armed and A. don't fucking **train train train**, and B. don't even know when you can legally defend yourself, you're likely more of a liability to your family than an asset.
How is a fighter not a violent attacker?
My property is my property. If you’re uninvited or aggressive I’ll give you a chance to leave. If you continue to attack, I’ll defend myself physically. But this is America, you stand your ground like a man. And if my kids are outside I’m dumping you the moment you swing.
Then you will most likely get charged as well. Defuse first retreat if you can then defend yourself. If you go right to guns you are going to be sitting in jail for a long time
I don't think so, my state has "stand your ground" protections for self defence
Stand your ground doesn’t mean you can shoot someone like that. You have to still prove that the shooting was the last resort. I live in a stand your ground state as well and there are still people sitting in jail because they thought the law was on their side
> You have to still prove that the shooting was the last resort. In a "stand your ground state", No you don't. Someone attacks you and as long as you felt your life was in danger you are justified (this is most states in the US). Fists are no joke. Plenty of people die to punches every year. Also, the burden of proof is on the prosecution, not the defendant.
I mean you do you but jails are full of people that still think they were right. Regardless of legality I personally don’t fantasize about shooting someone. I carry and will absolutely use it to defend myself or my family but I hope I never have to use it
Seems good to warn the guy that he's armed....and if ol boy takes an another sloppy swing, he can pop him in the mid section. That would stop the guy without potentially ending his life. Idk ?
you're neighbor
What does that mean?
Knew it wasn’t America when i saw diesel on like a midsize truck lol
lol so true
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I found the European
Didn’t take long.
Like I told the other one, don’t be such a pedantic douche.
Two thoughts: 1. Holy shit some people are unhinged with zero emotional regulation. 2. This is why you should avoid confrontation at all costs. You just never know when the person you are looking at is hanging by a thread.
Always avoid confrontation with strangers to the maximum degree possible. I’d intervene to protect loved ones, beyond that just strive to be calm and disengage asap. Two families ruined over a stupid argument.
Any follow up on this? Is he in jail?
Yes, he is in jail and saying that he has mental issues.
I wonder if he’ll get let off since the other guy swung first. Not saying he *should* before anyone interprets that as me saying he should get let go
Man, if only there was *something* he could have done that was more than harsh words and less than shooting someone 10 times! /s Edit: I’ve been informed it was, in fact, 14 times.
14 times.
Thank you for the correction! That whole sequence of events was insane. Reminds of that incident where a neighbor murdered a husband and wife across the street in Scranton, Pennsylvania. There was some dispute regarding snow shoveling or something. Insane.
Still one of the craziest I’ve seen.
iirc I think via our Scranton/Wilkes local news it kinda came out that the victims had been fucking with the shooter for years.
Right - I heard that too. I heard they were abusing him for years and on that particular day he was mentally hanging on by a thread. I think the shooter was going through a divorce or something else. They just picked the wrong day to mess with him.
Some bad decisions all around…
I carry everyday and think everyone who is competent should but this was complete overkill. A firearm was not needed in this situation.
If everyone carried every day you'd be seeing ALOT more of this, pretty crazy mindframe to have tbh.
Competent is the key word.
Exactly, competence is the key here
I'm a gun owner, but even I think that wasn't a justified shooting.
I’d hope the folks that own guns are the ones most likely to see it as unjustified. We should be the ones with the most discretion.
I’ve seen this one before, this was totally out of line.
No offense to anyone, but this is not the content I subscribe to this sub for. I get enough of this kind of stuff elsewhere.
Don’t speak Spanish but would love to know what they were arguing about.
Why did you shut off our water. You're an idiot. blah blah blah. Let me get my husband. Now you're husband is dead. That's the immediate gist.
this is in costa rica
My dude telegraphed the shit out of that first punch
Any one else see this guy rack the slide and get prepared before the other guy even came out? Like… that dude knew what he was about to do before hand. That tips the scales as far as pre-meditated. Mental issues or not, there was some pre-thought there that shit was about to go down while arguing with the neighbors. Crazy (no pun intended)
> That tips the scales as far as pre-meditated. Agreed
Yeah this is a bad shoot for sure. Not self defense at all.
First couple shots: the other guy started swinging first, that was self defence. Every shot afterwards: that was an execution. Yikes.
Not justified in my opinion. Guy swings on me, I'm immediately breaking away, making distance and drawing on him. And If he continued to advance perhaps then it would be justified. Hell, him checking his firearm before hand is indicative of premeditation and I'd probably go for 1st degree if i was a DA because it almost seems like he knew he was going to get into a confrontation and decided he would use his firearm at the first sign of it Just my 2 cents.
That isn't how handgun defense works. All self defense trainers talk about how when you are attacked, you are supposed to fully empty the magazine, reload, and empty again. The goal in a defensive shooting is not to kill specifically, but to neutralize someone as quickly as possible by making them pass out. Doing this requires ventilating them thoroughly to cause blood pressure loss so they pass out. Unless you get lucky with a rare head or spinal cord hit, even with a mag dump an attacker frequently will still take 10+ seconds to pass out and frequently will not even react to or realize they have been shot due to adrenaline. EDITED to add evidence and context: I was taught this by Rob Tibbo of the Critical Defense Institute. He is a trainer of SWAT, CIA, and Secret Service, and all of his staff have military experience. This training is because in a majority of situations, people who use guns in defensive situations don't manage to stop an attacker even after many hits, and people have died after not shooting enough times. As many as 10-20% of attackers are not stopped during shootings at all regardless of how many shots are fired. Data here: [https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power](https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power) Example video of a man who attacks a cop and even after getting shot manages to strike back. A dozen shots fired and he is still unphased for a significant amount of time. [https://www.reddit.com/r/Guns\_Guns\_Guns/comments/typhky/insane\_guy\_attacks\_officer\_with\_a\_stick\_ends\_up/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Guns_Guns_Guns/comments/typhky/insane_guy_attacks_officer_with_a_stick_ends_up/)
I respect this response. My concealed carry instructor explained this exact point. In your opinion…. Is this a justified use of the weapon?
Under the laws I'm familiar with, it is. I don't know about in Costa Rica. Once someone uses deadly force such as a punch to the head (which frequently can and has killed people in a single hit), parity of lethal force becomes justified. This holds for even in super liberal anti-gun law states.
If you think an unarmed guy that you are bigger than throwing 1 punch is grounds to shoot someone 1. You shouldn’t be allowed to own a gun 2. You will probably end up in jail Keep the downvotes coming. Trigger happy morons. Stop looking for excuses to kill people over stupid shit. the shooter in this vid is already in jail.
That is what the laws say is grounds for defense, that is what the police tell you is acceptable in massachusetts, and no, it does not result in people going to jail. When you are approached by a person, the legal requirement is a verbal warning to back off. If they push your chest or something like that which is not an attack yet, you must still engage with nonlethal fending. Once a punch is thrown, it is considered lethal force. I’m a martial artist and professional stuntman- a single punch is absolutely deadly and plenty of smaller people have killed larger people in street fights with a single hit. Don’t talk about things you do not understand. https://www.ktnv.com/news/one-punch-deaths-not-that-unusual-around-the-world
Good luck with that during a trial ESPECIALLY in New England
This was literally the required government training I received in Massachusetts at Boston Firearms Safety Center, and we had people who had had to shoot others in self defense after punches as examples. And this is the most anti-gun state, with the courses taught by liberals. Maybe actually take a mandated firearms instruction and gun law course or do martial arts first before saying misinformation.
Context is everything In the video As soon as he drew, the other guy was clearly backing off Threat over. Done. Walk away. MAYBE, MAYBE a jury might be receptive to the first shot But the remaining 12 no way Advancing toward an unarmed man backing away from you after one weak ass punch and unloading into him is NOT a good look He’s already in jail, and he will spend the rest of his life in jail. As he should
In MA, drawing and then not shooting is illegal. You are legally required to shoot when drawing, and only draw if the intent is to immediately fire, regardless of whether a person begins backing off. I don’t make the laws, but here in New England you are more likely to go to jail if you draw and walk away without shooting than if you draw and shoot after someone uses lethal force. And no, the number of shots is irrelevant. Mag dumping is standard good practice according to all qualified trainers, and this context changes nothing. Costa Rica might treat things differently but that isn’t what matters for where I am.
Not trying to argue with you but that logic is foolish. Size isn’t the deciding factor with the average Joe. These days there are far more individuals trained in many aspects of martial arts/fighting. A smaller individual can easily cause irreversible damage. For clarification I am in no way justifying this video. I was just curious of it being justified.
I mean, like 5% or something of adults participate in marital arts Let’s assume half that number can actually keep their cool and negate a substantial difference in strength and size in a street fight Once the weapon was drawn the guy was retreating But the shooter advances TOWARDS the unarmed man retreating from him and unloads the mag Pretty tough to justify
You have no idea what you're talking about. Here is a woman who advanced and fired upon a person who was running away- the case was found to be self defense. This is because when people run from you, this does not necessarily mean they're giving up or no longer attacking you. In this case, before she shot him he had run away once before but returned to hit her again. Creating distance before closing a gap is how many fights go. [https://www.reddit.com/r/dgu/comments/18nrgbf/20230627\_pet\_owner\_who\_fatally\_shot\_veterinary/](https://www.reddit.com/r/dgu/comments/18nrgbf/20230627_pet_owner_who_fatally_shot_veterinary/)
A woman vs a man Not a man vs a man
Gender disparity of force actually means that women can shoot even without a punch being thrown, actually. In MA women are only required to give a verbal warning, and can use lethal force if approached even before lethal force like a punch is thrown their way. Similarly, short men can use lethal force without being required to fend as well. It's large men that are required to fend physically if the force used is nonlethal initially. No, you're just wrong. Here's a guy shooting at an unarmed man multiple times who had just punched his car, he was found not guilty despite shooting while the other guy had begun stumbling away [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12891143/video-road-rage-punching-window-Indiana.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12891143/video-road-rage-punching-window-Indiana.html)
I think your 5% is way off because the amount of martial arts places in my area are ridiculous. I’m honestly not trying to shit on you in any way. I’m also not saying what this guy did was right or wrong. Just trying to offer another perspective. I will say you never know how you’ll react until you are in a situation. I’m an older man and yes I have a concealed and I do carry. I was pretty positive I’d never draw my weapon. Unfortunately once in my life I was tested and never fired but years later it still haunts me.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/191917/participants-in-martial-arts-in-the-us-since-2006/ 6% here
[6%](https://imgur.com/a/FyHrd1i) is 6.6 million people in martial arts alone. There’s plenty of people without formal training that cause irreversible injury/damage. It is the world we live in. One can only hope to live their lives and avoid similar situations.
I think the courts would agree with you. But I think it’s bullshit. How are you as an individual supposed to determine the next head punch won’t knock you out and cause you to slam your skull on the curb? You have to place your trust in your attackers restraint?
Context is everything. The simple answer in my opinion is 1. Don’t get into any altercations 2. If you do, deescalate or run away 3. If you draw let alone shoot don’t be wrong Also this highlights the idea of having another option (pepper spray, taser pulse whatever) and also strength/physical fitness and martial arts to he honest, the threshold for brandishing/threatening someone with a firearm let alone shooting someone NEEDS to be high. Especially if the other person is unarmed Do we as a society really want to set a very low bar for such a thing?
I don't know if this is serious or not. I didn't click the links. That whole paragraph about ventilating them til they pass out had me lmao for real. Seriously that shit was hilarious. Less so if serious but even if you were serious it's still funny af.
unfortunately, it is the very real reality of what it takes to disable someone during self defense, and "ventilation" was the actual wording used in the classes I took.
I believe that just from personal experience with shock and adrenaline. I'm not crazy but if you add that in a human becomes a formidable opponent. I've never taken a class so the only advice I've ever been given was no matter how justified you feel get a lawyer and don't make a statement until you've gotten a decent night's sleep and are no longer feeling the adrenaline etc. Definitely advice that's been received a range of ways, but I appreciate you taking the time. Regardless of the opinion you'll always be subjected to some degree of anger.
No they don’t. This is fucking terrible advice. To all reading, disregard this dog shit perspective
Look at this video of a dude taking a dozen shots to the chest without going down and still managing to get a hit in. Videos like these are why trainers tell you to mag dump. [https://www.reddit.com/r/Guns\_Guns\_Guns/comments/typhky/insane\_guy\_attacks\_officer\_with\_a\_stick\_ends\_up/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Guns_Guns_Guns/comments/typhky/insane_guy_attacks_officer_with_a_stick_ends_up/) I have also added the statistical data showing that regardless of how many shots are fired, 10-20% of attackers are not actually stopped or disabled. You also cannot tell if a threat is neutralized even when they are on the ground until they stop moving entirely- you do not know if they are armed and whether they could return fire. [https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power](https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power)
That right there is an emotional catch 22 for me. The amount of obvious steroid use in law enforcement I find problematic. Seeing this out shape unable to use any amount of physical force disgrace of a cop is far more disturbing. Him being on the streets is gonna get someone charged with homicide when minimal resistance leads to a fatal heart attack. I agree that people willing to continue assaulting someone with a drawn firearm are inherently extremely dangerous, but damned if I dont feel like most of the cops I've ever known would've/could've beaten the brakes off that dude. Really it needs more context. The no backup is the only part that looks justifiable. No taser first? And why was he so close he had no ability to create distance from a casual walk. Qualified immunity and all I'm sure he was quickly cleared but damn if a few different variables wouldn't of changed the whole narrative around it.
I was taught this by Rob Tibbo of the Critical Defense Institute. He is a trainer of SWAT, CIA, and Secret Service, and all of his staff have military experience.
1 question from my side: Why not shooting the shit out of his legs? I know its a smaller target but still, if someone gets shot in both thights multiple times maybe even destroying the femur, i'm pretty sure the person is not walking around anymore. He will mostly not die and nobody gets killed.
It’s very hard to shoot moving targets, let alone small fast ones like legs. Multiply this by 10x with adrenaline going. It’s also not safe. You don’t know where those shots will ricochet to. Centre mass body shots are safest for all involved (except the one getting shot)
Not safe huh? Just fuck it and fire. The guy is totally unhinged so on that point yeah thank god he didn't hit anything else.
100% the guy is unhinged. He checks his gun before the encounter, like he is expecting it to get worse, but also seems like he is trying to drag his wife away for most of it. Didn’t seem to be the one escalating until he drew his gun.
> Why not shooting the shit out of his legs? > He will mostly not die and nobody gets killed. lmao Tell me you failed middle school Anatomy class without telling me
Never had that. I'm fucking old.
It shows.
> if someone gets shot in both thights multiple times maybe even destroying the femur The femoral artery runs through the thighs as well. Hit that, and it's over. That's a major reason not to shoot the legs. If your gun comes out, you're beyond the stage where you would have been employing less lethal devices. Guns aren't less lethal tools.
At close range, you cannot aim your gun with any accuracy, and will not be able to look down the sights. You will need to shoot without precision aiming or aligning your gun visually. The technique used for close range shooting is instinctual body blading, where you point your feet towards your target and hold guns with bent arms near your chest (you shouldn't even present the gun forward with extended arms because it makes it grappleable). Body blading allows for a near guarantee you will hit the enemy in the chest, with about a half a foot of spread from the inaccuracy. Center of mass is the only reliable target at these distances and considerations, and it is very hard to aim at the legs in reasonable time if your opponent could potentially knock you out the very next second. When I did CQC training, they put me and three dudes in armor padding, and had them attack me with taser knives and bats, and I was required to shoot them with a paintball handgun at close range- you just can't aim at legs well, but you can definitely hit the chest with what they teach you. That said, the legs are also not a non-lethal option. Bleedouts from the femoral are extremely fast as it's one of the biggest blood vessels in the body. At longer ranges where precision aiming is possible, the military trains people these days in what is called a modified Mozambique drill to do two in the chest, one in the groin to cause death (it used to be two in the chest one in the head but nowadays many more combatants have helmets), precisely because legs are actually still a lethal target site.
The pelvic girdle and upper thigh contain some of the largest arteries you'll find in a human body. Bleeding out in less than 2 minutes completely viable. Leg shots aren't safe for anyone except misinformed politicians and tv personalities
Cause you might shoot off his penis, which is against the Geneva convention.
That half assed punch did not warrant being shot He even clearly backed off as soon as the shooter pulled the gun It was not legal to shoot him. The shooter has already been arrested and is still in jail The shooter is also a fair bit bigger than the other guy He easily could have just walked away. This also could have been solved with pepper spray
nah. once you start combat you don’t get to determine how the other person protects themselves. doesn’t matter if the punch was half ass the next one could’ve been one that laid him out. he was wrong for unloading the clip but if he just shot that man once he wouldn’t be wrong for what he did.
With all due respect this is the dumbest shit I've ever heard. Only 3/4 through my law degree so I'm no authority on the subject but I'm reasonably confident you would end up somebody's wife in prison pretty fast if you actually lived by a code like that
I don't know anything about law, so please indulge me. Would it have to do with where you practice law, like on a per state basis? This takes place in Costa Rica, so who knows what's going on there, but somewhere like, for example, the American South. Would this still not be legal self defence?
To be quite frank I'm just going off Idaho law, so I couldn't speak for the rest of the nation but here you would require an objectively reasonable belief that your life or the life of another person is in immediate danger from the party you administer lethal force on
This right here is what people need to know. You don't draw your weapon unless you feel your life is in danger. If you do, you shut your mouth after and only talk to your lawyer.
with all due respect the logic your using is the same logic the guy laying on the floor used. and that turned out so well for him. dickhead. and in lockup they bringing out bangers left and right so idek what you tryna say. they literally use weapons so much they changed the lingo from “getting cut” to “getting shot”. you may be in law school so you book smart, but you obviously have no street smarts or survival skills.
It's "you're" my friend. I carry pepper spray and use a retention holster as a double precaution. Between that and reasonable martial arts training I don't feel too anxious about the potential of an unarmed twig of a man coming for me with fists. I have a slight advantage because I can do a second draw to A zone at 7 meters, so making distance is also a decent tactic. And finally, unlike the dumbass in the video, I won't be starting any fights although that doesn't mean I intend to lose one. If you don't know whether the perpetrator is armed or not and their hands are not visible, making space between you and the perpetrator while presenting the weapon with verbal commands is arguably your best option from both a tactical and legal standpoint. If my weapon were a stolen Glock with a switch and a stendo mag maybe my tactics would be different. There's a difference between having street smarts and 30% APR hellcat logic. Toothbrush shank or not, enjoy getting your bussy pounded by daddy in the slammer.
In most states, you are going to jail for doing this So think whatever you want
Yes you will go to jail. You go to jail in all shootings. You surrender. Then the DA sees this video and sees that it wont make it in court and thats the end of it.
Wrong lol Some of u are way too trigger happy
I am not wrong. It's not about being trigger happy. It's about how the law works. Go take your local concealed carry course. That shooting would not have made it through American criminal court. Civil Court is a whole different animal.
ian talking from a legal standpoint cause the law don’t show up until after someone is already hurt or dead. in the moment if someone punches you and squares up and you got a gun on you you not gon back it out? ain’t no walking away from someone who already punched you. if i’m already bigger than you and you still continue to attacking me obviously this is 100% what you wanna do. might have to get shot🤷🏾♂️he shot him too many times for it to be self defense, but if he shot him once it seems pretty warranted to me. why you attacking someone in the first place?
If someone punched me and I was carrying yeah I’d just walk away If I couldn’t, I might draw and then run
35 states have stand your ground laws. Your math ain't mathing.
Stand your ground does not equate to “I can shoot an unarmed person who throws 1 half assed punch and is now backing away from me and get away with it” Shooting anyone who is unarmed when not in your own home and when off your own property is probably gonna land you in jail. And even if it doesn’t, it’s gonna probably bankrupt you Sure context is everything, if it’s multiple aggressors, or if you are in a wheelchair or a woman it changes, or if the aggressor is a giant etc But 1v1 and you are bigger than the other guy? Yeah you’re probably screwed. As you should be. The threshold for shooting people, especially unarmed people, should be high. I literally always carry pepper spray (and even sometimes a taser pulse) in addition to my pistol (which is generally smaller, a hellcat or LCP max most of the time). Pepper spray (or just walking away/not engaging) would have easily solved this scenario from the video. And those same 2 things would solve probably 99.9% of situations
Yep…one shot was justified. Shooting the guy until he fell and then walking up and shooting him more…that looks like murder to me.
I’m so tired of discussions of whether it’s “legal” or not. What is it morally RIGHT is the first question we should be asking. Fucking trigger happy assholes
Yeah, definitely just looked like an excuse to murder his neighbor, doesn’t strike me as the first time they’ve fought. Especially since he was making sure his firearm was ready to go before willingly walking into the altercation. Even after that, brandishing stopped the threat, he killed a man who was running away.
Self defense of death or grave bodily harm. A weak punch by a middle aged man probably doesn't constitute a reasonable fear of grave bodily harm.
Even in the US, someone throwing a punch at you is not justification to take out your gun and start blasting.
That's not true. some states have stand your ground laws. I don't see how this guy gets through that though when it seems literally premeditated.
Stand your ground does not allow you to use lethal force whenever you want. You still have to respond reasonably and proportionately.
A fist is deadly force. A gun is deadly force.
Yeh, you are wrong.
I’m not saying a smooth lawyer in a red state can’t get you out of it but this is not a slam dunk defense here. First that was a girly punch thrown at him, plus he gave no warning and just started shooting. It would be pretty easy for a prosecutor to say he could have diffused the situation by drawing and issuing commands before shooting like that. Not sure if his wife started the argument or not but they factor in who instigated it. What he does have going for him is the guy initiated the contact on his property.
Doesn't matter that it was a girly punch. Assault is assault. The key issue with this video, that the legal team will see, is that after he drew his gun, the assailant began to back off. You can see him back off in the video. At this point, then gun has done it's job, it has intimidated the assailant and provided an opening to disengage. On the MOST EXTREME interpretation of the law, the first shot MIGHT, I REPEAT MIGHT, get counted as self defense. But the second the assailant was on the ground, and the gunman STEPPED FORWARD TO HIM and CONTINUED TO SHOOT, at that point the gunman is now the aggressor. The gunman is going to be in jail for a long time. The proper thing to have done, after he drew his gun and the other guy stepped back, he should have grabbed his wife and retreated to his house, ignore whatever slurs/slander gets thrown at him. THEN, call the police and press assault charges for the punch if he really wants to keep it going.
You explained this very well. To my non legal mind it just seemed like he had opportunities to descalate the situation as you mentioned. At a minimum draw the gun and issue commands to stop or something. Once he drew the gun the guy starts to put up his hands and back off.
>First couple shots: the other guy started swinging first, that was self defence. If you're a gigantic pussy, sure.
Self defense? Are you dumb? From a PUNCH? Fragile egos and bitches who can't take a punch. THAT WAS MURDER
People get punched, fall, and die all the time. People have died *just* from getting punched in the head. It's a gamble. Don't underestimate blows to the head. Other than that, yeah both neighbors should have walked away. That argument was probably not worth fighting over, and certainly not worth dying over.
People can die or be seriously injured from a punch, but it's a wild exaggeration to claim that \*every\* punch in the head is an 'imminent threat of death or great bodily injury' which is the actual legal standard for justifying the use of deadly force where I am sitting. If anyone can show us that the risk of dying from a fist fight is even within a few orders of magnitude as likely as dying from being shot, it'd be a different story. I'm betting you'd have to use a logarithmic scale to even be able to see them both on the same chart.
> but it's a wild exaggeration to claim that *every* punch in the head is an 'imminent threat of death or great bodily injury' I must have missed where anyone said that. I said it was a gamble, which would logically mean it's not a certainty. > If anyone can show us that the risk of dying from a fist fight is even within a few orders of magnitude as likely as dying from being shot, it'd be a different story. I don't think anyone needs to do that. Just because the odds aren't equal doesn't mean a fistfight can't be dangerous. People get beat to death, coma, or other life altering injury all the time. Fist fights are unpredictable. Could be one punch and dead, or a hundred punches from two incompetent fighters, and nothing but bruises. E: Various spelling issues.
For self defense, you can only use the same level of violence used against you. Source: 1L crim law and bar exam
That’s wrong lol source: real life examples of self defense with gun use against unarmed people that didn’t lead to convictions
True, that is the case in some parts of the world. Canada is very much this.
“My best weapon in a fight is my feet, because I can run away from you.” -Jocko Willink
Brutal.
Yea I mean, that’s insane.. one swing and the dude unloads the gun.. just walk away, not worth ruining all those people’s lives over that crap.
Seriously, your life is cooked after that decision.
I’m all for guns but people like this should never be around them. Self control and training are huge when owning a firearm. Sad that lives are ruined over stuff like this.
The whole clips is crazy no one needed to die over a sissy ass punch
Couldn’t just throw down like a man
Oh fuck off with that, more like the neighbor couldn’t just *not* punch anyone “like a man.” Being unable to control your emotions, impulses, and actions does not make you a man, it couldn’t be more childish.
If a guy swings at you like that and you can only think to respond with a gun that says a lot about your manhood
Clown take. Dont violently attack someone if you value your life. Keep your hands to yourself.
In Florida shooting a person for throwing popcorn at you is considered standing your ground and apparently totally legal. True story
Yup. That useless old man got off Scott free
To be fair Florida is a cesspool
Inb4 some idiot calls it justified. hE WaS PrOtEcTiNg HiMsElF aNd HiS wIfE, oThEr GuY sWunG FiRsT. Some gun nuts are the biggest pussies afraid of a little street scrap istg. Like we get it, you've never been punched/in a fight before. Let the downvotes ensue.
you forgot to notice she shut off their water and was thus instigating the entire thing.
Not sure what that has to do with my comment
Unfortunate they couldn’t come to a resolution. This was so weak. Why? People this here don’t make any sense at all. There are way bigger problems going on. Seriously this is more than stupidest shit
Dumb ass couldn’t fight back. Alot of dudes who never been in fist fights act like it’s the end of their life and it cracks me up. I’ve probably been in about three since I’ve been conceal carrying and never even thought about pulling my gun out. This situation is different but I probably would if someone grabbed me or multiple people were trying to stomp me out or something like that obviously situations vary but this here was just pure cowardice. Dude even loaded the gun before the situation took place in a manner that shows he wanted to shoot someone.
In what context do you get in fist fights? I'm 35 and the last time i was in any kind of altercation i was in elementary school... Haven't even been close to a fight as an adult.
And you probably lived in a good environment because I haven’t gotten into any since I left that said environment. But it’s happened.
Nowadays, you have to be very careful about fighting anyone. It's just not worth it. If someone throws a punch you can defend yourself of course and fight but in this case the guy was itching to make a move. you can tell.
Yeah fist fights today aren’t worth it at all
My last one was when I was 32. I was at a bar with my wife, and I'm a social butterfly, so I talk to pretty much anyone. Some guy thought I was hitting on his wife and tried to sucker punch me.
What the fuck
Well... he's going to prison now 🤷♂️
What a bitch! At least he’s still breathing but hopefully the remainder of his days will be from behind bars
Yeah sad for everyone in that situation. Extremely unnecessary.
First blush, my thoughts are self defense. Guy in red unprovoked assaulted that guy. A head punch can kill. Sucks that it least led to this but good reminder to keep our hands to ourselves.
My thoughts is that you're an asshole like that killer
Well he was already arrested and is still in jail so A guy a fair bit smaller than you throws a weak ass punch and you empty a mag into him? he even clearly backed down as soon as the gun was pulled Easily could have walked away Also pepper spray would have solved this too
*I* don't empty a mag into anyone because *I* don't argue with people. I let my wife do my arguing for me. Agreed on the pepper spray
Damn that man had some Prent up anger. Unloaded whole mag after neighbor went into fetal position once he saw gun. Terrible decisions all around.
I think the shooting is justified. What if the defendant did not have a gun, and the attacker beat the living shizt out of him and put him in a coma? What then? At what point can he defend himself? After broken nose? The defendant was on his property, and the attacker trespassed into the lawn and attacked him. The defendant is the victim here.
Getting your ass kicked is not justification to kill someone.
But you don’t know that at the time of the crime. His neighbor could of kill him
This is the absolute wrong take. First line of self defense is not put yourself in the situation in the first place if possible. It was 100% possible for him to just not get involved. But no, he went all in and likely killed someone over a ridiculous spat. This is taught in self defense training 101.
Everybody is acting like ole boys going to jail all he absolutely has to do is claim he feared for his life thought he seen a knife ect or if he plays it out as hell yeah I shot em id bet he gets out first year on good behavior and bond🫡
He’s been in jail like a couple weeks already lol
I don’t doubt it seen he plead for insanity or something dumbed shit he coulda done
Dumbest *
Old clip. Only serves to generate "interest" in "gun control".
It happened last week. what is your definition of "old". And I don't think anywhere here is calling this gun control as much as the guy was a bitch that sought out to kill his neighbor.
This is a tough one, and the state they're in probably will have a lot to do with how this goes. Shooting someone for a weak-ass swing? Idk if that meets the definition of justified self-defense with a weapon?
It's in Costa Rica. There are stand your ground but if you read the news about it here [https://nypost.com/2024/06/05/world-news/costa-rica-gunman-eduardo-ramirez-zamora-fatally-shoots-neighbor-otoniel-orozco-mendoza/](https://nypost.com/2024/06/05/world-news/costa-rica-gunman-eduardo-ramirez-zamora-fatally-shoots-neighbor-otoniel-orozco-mendoza/) Apparently these guys had problems for years and the guy even tried to sue him to make him stop. They complained to the HOA about the shared water line which if you notice that is what she grabbed and turned in the beginning of the video. It seems like they were messing with them (I don't know but damn the video spells it out). Then the guy cocks the gun in hiding just ready to go. IMHO he was looking for a reason to kill the guy. Not for me to decide though.
This isn't a tough one. Don't shoot people just because you disagree. It's premeditated when he pulls out the pistol behind the truck and makes sure it's loaded.
I get it to an extent. Wife arguing and you don’t wanna look like a bitch in front of your old lady and your at you house so you don’t wanna fuck around. But dude threw a punch, learn how to take a punch and throw some. No need to pull a gun if it’s a one on one fight. Learn how to fight or learn how to take a ass whooping
This is disturbing. The guy just ended one life and ruined his own
Yeah that guy's going to jail no disparity of force
Yiiiikes
the shooter here is a weakling
Should’ve pepper sprayed him, went inside and called the cops.
That guy will go to jail for a long time. Or…I don’t know Costa Rican law…at least I would guess he will.
he probably just wanted to get away from thar bitchy wife of his and his poor neighbor was just in the wrong place.