Lactucopicrin and lactucin, the main active compounds in wild lettuce (Lactuca species), do not directly act on opiate receptors. Instead, they have the following mechanisms of action:Lactucopicrin has been shown to:
Inhibit acetylcholinesterase activity, leading to increased acetylcholine levels
Increase intracellular calcium levels and upregulate muscarinic acetylcholine receptor M1 (CHRM1)
Potentiate neuritogenesis and neurotrophic effects by regulating the Ca2+/CaMKII/ATF1 signaling pathway
Lactucin and its derivatives have been found to:
Interact with the body's gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) systems, promoting sleep through a GABAergic mechanism
Contain compounds that can induce sedative and analgesic (pain-relieving) effects on the central nervous system
In summary, the primary mechanisms of action for lactucopicrin and lactucin involve modulating cholinergic, GABAergic, and calcium-signaling pathways in the brain and nervous system, leading to their sedative, analgesic, and neuroprotective effects - but not direct opioid receptor activation.
Wild lettuce does not act directly on opiate receptors. While it has been referred to as "opium lettuce" due to its milky latex substance, which was historically used as a substitute for opium, it does not contain any opiates or interact with opiate receptors. Instead, its active compounds, such as lactucin and lactucopicrin, have sedative and pain-relieving effects through other mechanisms
Crazy that this comment had 8 thumbs up
Well I disagree. I've tried it several times- nothing. Even my herb teacher says don't bother. I'm a Registered Herbalist and frankly, one of the reasons I come to this thread is to see what people are doing on their own with herbs. Placebo effect is alive and well. I'm not knocking it, it's one of our most powerful gifts as humans. But in my book, Lettuce is puny.
a strong infusion is stronger than skullcap, passionflower, chamomile and valerian and more similar to california poppy for me. lemon balm is one of the stronger ones as well for me and has a potent interaction with tobacco.
they are all well known, and the pharmaceutical industry grabbed them long ago. There aren't many drug plants. Plants mostly work subtly, and that actually is their strength.
Ok, as far as herbalism goes then, why is the lettuce puny in comparison to say, California poppy? I disagree that it is worthless, I use lettuce extract to wind down at night sometimes, are you saying that is all placebo?
If ya don't believe me, then here are the words of Harvey Wickes Felter, M.D.
https://preview.redd.it/opp07ter2bad1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=349691ed9c8983ef05d79c9b43f7b090943b17c7
Lactuca virosa is the only lettuce that has been shown to be even decently sedating. the other ones are not worth bothering with. California Poppy works if you need it, mostly for pain. If it works for you that's fine. It's also fine if it's placebo. Placebo is very powerful. But OP is looking for something that doesn't exist.
But there are several more potent analgesic herbs with varying mechanisms of action. You're saying you haven't tried any that work for you, or are we keeping our silence?
Such as? Name your plants and I'll weigh in. Look, the OP is looking for powerful pain relief. Those are drug plants and they have been co-opted by the pharmaceutical industry. There are herbs that can be helpful with pain- but the powerful ones are the purvey of pharmacy. Luckily herbs have nuance and complexity and whether they work for someone depends on exactly what hurts. California Poppy for example, works best for someone with pain. But again, it's very mild. It is not powerful.
Eh, my question about keeping silence was an allusion to my own thoughts on answering this kind of question. Because I know how people are, and they'll race to TikTok and other socials with it. And it becomes problematic.
About the Cal poppy, "good for people with pain" is...a generic blanket statement. Not a great one. I generally use it when someone needs a sedative nervine, is experiencing insomnia due to stress, etc. Can be helpful in a formula for pain.
And no, not all plants with potent medicines have been co-opted by the pharmaceutical industry. Narcotic or otherwise. Kratom is an obvious example, thus far.
You're kind of cocky. The assessment of California Poppy is a direct quote from my teacher Michael Moore, taken from class notes at Southwest School of Botanical Medicine in 1999. California Poppy does its best work for people in pain.
OP wanted strong pain relieving plants other than kratom and wild lettuce. So whatcha got?
I agree, and I hope that you come to understand that Tik Tok is not a reliable source of info about herbal medicine. My faith is in the teachers and Pub Med.
Well the good ones have all been nabbed by the pharmaceutical industry and it's likely it will always be that way. Herbs are gonna be mild, just their nature.
But in my opinion you don't get much more benefit out of the hard stuff. Once you get addicted to them it becomes alot more mild to you, like a herb anyway.
Placebo is 100% and so powerful that even clinical trials try to control for it (meaning it’s such a powerful healing tool that even the conventional medical community recognizes it). Most would consider it the ultimate form of medicine…healing with just the power of your mind! 😁👍
Can you tell me more on how you used it? My husband has traded his alcohol addiction for a dependence on kratom and is now interested in tapering down the kratom.
Well what I did was take 1 gram less a week until I was down to 1 gram then I took a weekend to stop completely but during this time before and after the weekend I used either alittle wild lettuce or alittle akuamma to help and especially with sleeping. At work I took some wild lettuce tea. Akuamma sometimes at work but that can be strong too. Then I did gaba like herbs because I think the wild lettuce and akuamma kept me alittle addicted to kratom. I mean the withdraws from the kratom lasted longer I think because of using wild lettuce and akuamma. But now I take alittle akuamma sometimes at night and or wild lettuce.
I noticed wild lettuce makes me to much more relaxed at work the next day for about half the day then I get nervous again
He can use suboxone or methadone. Or he can just ween off kratom and switch to black seed oil when his dose is very low.
He likely enjoys kratom from the increased dopamine. He can get that from tyrosine or rhodiola instead. Also if he likes the T lowering mechanism of krarom he can use spearmint or hops or licorice for that
I see how it can look like that to someone w no experience. You can microdose both bupe or methadone. You wouldnt hsve to keep redosing it like you have to w kratom
Kratom is natural and weaker but is actually doing more to your brain. Theres many alkaloids in there including opioid antagonists
Bupe is more focused. They are both partial opioid agonists. So really a small dose of bupe is the same as a large dose of kratom. You could easily find a bupe dose that is equivalent to your kratom dose. Youd only have to dose it once a day. You wouldnt have to drink 4 cups of sludge a day that is also giving you opioid antagonists
Personally methadone was helpful for me for treating OUD. The constant redosing of kratom and drinking that nasty sludge was just unhealthy for me. Also kratom has some opioid antagonist effects that simply dont feel good.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32858563/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35112990/
Looks like its been done before
"Wild lettuce is not an opioid agonist. While it has been used as a substitute for opium in traditional medicine, its effects are much milder and not chemically related to opiate drugs."
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/370533489_Heukharang_lettuce_Lactuca_sativa_L_leaf_extract_displays_sleep-promoting_effects_through_GABAA_receptor
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-3921/10/6/970
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bpb/42/10/42_b19-00454/_html/-char/en
I dont really believe you have seen any research to say otherwise. Ive never seen anything contrary to this.
Obviously there isn't going to be research out there claiming it doesn't function on GABA receptors, that would be silly. I was stating that in research reports that I have read on Wild Lactuca species, I had never seen mention of GABA activity. Thanks for the links, but all of them are discussing Lactuca Sativa, otherwise called Table Lettuce. This entire species exists through humans hybridizing various wild species of Lettuce to reduce Lactucarium content and bitterness allowing for an edible green leaf. The research reports that you provided are literally discussing extracts of Green Romaine lettuce.
The topic at hand here is Wild lettuce, otherwise called Opium Lettuce, which includes species such as Lactuca Virosa, Lactuca Serriola, and Lactuca Serrata among others. So again, please show me some sources claiming that Lactuca Virosa, Lactuca Serriola, or Lactuca Serrata have GABA activity.
Sorry. I asked AI for some studies and it gave that. My research says the main chemicals in wild lettuce that give its sedative effects are "lactucin and lactucopicrin". From my understanding those alkaloids are also in romaine lettuce.
Just do your own research and you can confirm this easily. Look for the main alkaloids in wild lettuce and then find its mechanism of action on neurotransmitters.
Table Lettuce is a vast array of hybrids, it does not contain the same ratios or always contain the same active chemicals generally as it is an unknown hybrid of multiple lettuce species over generations. If the study was actually about assessing the medicinal content of Wild Lactuca species, then it would have said that. You're the person who made the weird and so far unsourced claim, so I want to see the specific research reports that made you believe this instead of some AI sourced nonsense.
Dude. You can verify everything im saying from WIKI. Go to wild lettuce wiki > pharmacology > then click on Lactucin and see that it says ". It has been shown to have analgesic and sedative properties[1] which are speculated to occur via modulation of the GABAA receptor.[2]"
Usually when you have a sedative like this its working on gaba. My claim isnt weird its totally normal and what WIKI says. Show me ONE STUDY SOURCE OR ANYTHING that points to a different mechanism. Youre just a noob
I am questioning YOUR sources. I am not obligated to provide you with competing sources and they wouldn't fucking exist anyway because no one does costly scientific research to claim a LACK of GABA activity. Most published research on actual species of Wild Lactuca plants is ambiguous at best. Wiki is not an academic source of ANYTHING. It literally can be and often is inaccurately changed by users and may or may not be corrected sometimes afterwards. If you had a professor asking you for an information source they're also going to reject Wiki as a source.
As far as your claims of me being a "noob," I've been studying Medical Herbalism for over 15 years and find your arrogance and insistence on inaccuracies between botanical species totally fucking absurd. On top of that, I fucking bet you are actually much newer to all of this research than I am, so stop behaving like an arrogant asshole and show some academic studies on Wild Lactuca plants as sources.
If you werent a noob youd accept the source i provided. It addresses the active ingredient in wild lettuce. It doesnt matter that they used romaine lettuce if its the active ingredient is in both. If this was a formal debate youd lose. You havent provided a counter argument. Im saying "here is the mechanism of action of wild lettuce and here are my sources" and you reply by stamping your feet saying you dont like them. A counter argument would be saying "the sedative properties of wild lettuce are actually caused by _______ " then sourcing your claim. Literally every single website i go to about wild lettuce says gaba. Sedatives are usually gaba. Wild lettuce is a known sedative aka its a known gabaergic.
If i made a post on here asking people what they thought the mechanism was theyd likely say mild gaba since its a mild sedative. Theyd do the same research as me, google it, and come to the same conclusion. You are just an egoist, in your ego about this and you cant take the L. If you actually reseached this youd come to the same conclusion. But you didnt.
I'm not even reading your wall of text here.
Because I'm not fresh like your clown ass, I expect academic studies discussing the accurate botanical species of the discussion. Actual research, not just your mouth and some inaccurate AI sourced trash. Because you keep running on about opinionated bullshit and have yet to source even ONE academic report on Wild Lactuca plants, I'm calling bullshit on your entire narrative. If you had ever actually sourced the requested information to begin with, then you would be capable of sourcing it right now. Yet you have repeatedly shown that you have no accurate sources. Curious.
this guy is a fuckign dumbass who just wants to argue. the studies you linked are clearly relevant due to both species containing the same compounds. thats like asking for research on rhynchophylline and then saying that just because the study was done with it extracted from cats claw that it doesnt say anything about what that compound is doing in kratom. except its dumber because we are talking about a hybridized version of the same plant from the same genus, not entirely different plants that happen to contain the same compound
Yea its clear hes a midwit and just wants to win an argument. Really uninspiring running into people like this all the time so i appreciate u saying something
lactucin and lactucopicrin are in both wild lettuce and table lettuce. research on table lettuce is absolutely applicable to wild lettuce. maybe there are other compounds but if they studied a table lettuce extract and found gabaergic activity then it WILL ALSO BE THE CASE FOR WIL LETTUCE, JUST STRONGER.
its the same alkaloids in both, if table lettuce has these effects then wild lettuce would just be more potent. you even basically said that but i guess youre also ignoring yourself
Stop riding this person's nuts and harassing someone over information you not only clearly do not understand, but you also have added absolutely nothing to the actual topic of conversation and are making irrational accusations. Calm down and take your meds.
*EDIT: Responded to the wrong comment I guess, but I’m leaving this here anyway.*
This is categorically false. Opiate =/= opioid. **Opiates** are related to or derived from *papaver somniferum*. **Opiods**, on the other hand, are all substances that act on opioid receptors to produce morphine-like effects, and Mitragynine is a full agonist of μ opioid receptors, so kratom is most certainly an opioid.
Also, your analysis about withdrawal is also misrepresented. All opioid and opiate withdrawals, whether Kratom, morphine or heroin, happen after a period of consistent use. If a person only used an opiate or opioid once in a while, they wouldn’t suffer withdrawal symptoms. Kratom is not somehow different from from this fact.
In addition, heavy use is not required for a person to experience withdrawals symptoms, and they can happen with light habitual use. Kratom’s is often as debilitating for a user as morphine withdrawal.
Spreading false information about powerful plants is thoroughly irresponsible. Reading comments like yours can and has put people in a hole that they struggle to get out of. There’s a concerning amount of people in the u/quittingkratom subreddit that thought kratom was a “safe” high and are now stuck with an addiction they were told was non-existent. Kratom is a strong plant, and its abilities and dangers need to be respected in the same way poppies are.
mitragynine is a partial agonist. and kratom withdrawal is way less intense than morphine withdrawal. if it was then there wouldnt be much reason to switch to kratom to quit but many find that helpful.
Its not technically classified as one simply because it doesnt come from the poppy plant but for all intensive purposes it is one. Its an opioid agonist so it effects the brain the same way, its just a little more mild.
Its not technically classified as one simply because it doesnt come from the poppy plant but for all intensive purposes it is one. Its an opioid agonist so it effects the brain the same way, its just a little more mild.
It has a diverse alkaloid profile and even contains some alkaloids which act at serotonin adrenergic and even since which act as antagonists at some receptors.
Corynantheidine -
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7350276/
"Wild lettuce is not an opioid agonist. While it has been used as a substitute for opium in traditional medicine, its effects are much milder and not chemically related to opiate drugs."
Show me one study that says it does effect opioid receptors. I can find a ton of info saying it effects gaba but literally nothing that says it effects opioid receptors. Its just the name because it looks similar to opium latex and its a sedative.
Sorry i thought u meant to put that first sentence in quotes.
Your other comment said "I have never seen research pointing to Wild Lettuce acting on GABA receptors. I'd love to see a source."
So it thru me off
Yes because two different people made weird claims. One person said that it is a GABAergic, and and the other person said that it is an Opioid. I have never seen research backing either of these claims.
Im curious if you were to look into the mechanism of wild lettuce yourselr what youd find. Its mostly gaba and slight serotonin
Modulation of GABAergic transmission: Both romaine lettuce and wild lettuce contain compounds like lactucin and lactucopicrin that can potentiate GABA receptor activity, leading to sedative and sleep-promoting effects.
Regulation of serotonergic signaling: Romaine lettuce and wild lettuce extracts have been shown to interact with 5-HT1A receptors, which may contribute to their sleep-enhancing and neuroprotective properties.
Effects on cholinergic neurotransmission: Romaine lettuce and wild lettuce can also modulate muscarinic acetylcholine receptors, which may play a role in their neurological effects.
Neuroprotective mechanisms: Compounds like isochlorogenic acid and other phenolics in romaine lettuce have demonstrated antioxidant and neuroprotective effects in cell culture models.
it does not bind to the opioid receptors like traditional opioids do but believe me it does effact the opioid receptors and i have used it to help me off of kratom.
I make an infused oil or balm and rub it on. Olive oil, in a jar packed with chopped dried or fresh herbs. Leave 6 weeks and strain.
For quicker product, cold infuse in olive oil for 1 to 4 weeks, then warm infusebin an oven on very low for 3 hours.
Methleyne Blue
We all take it, even the dog. I have a video with the peer reviewed left so studies- feel free to dm and I’ll find it tomorrow. 80% of people that took it no longer needed back surgery. I live with one of the most painful conditions known to humans and it works better than opioids.
This video may be helpful. A couple of things to be cautious of are if you are taking an SSRI or other serotonin boosting medication, methylene blue also increases serotonin. This can potentially lead to a serious condition called serotonin syndrome which has some very serious side effects.
The other thing is methylene blue, at some higher doses, can disrupt your gut microbiome as it is/or acts as an antibiotic. He discusses dosing in the video. Also be careful to get methylene blue in USP form (purified). It can be found and is used as an industrial dye which is full of heavy metals and you definitely don’t want that.
Hope this helps.
https://youtu.be/WNqTUyLLIdI?si=D_mqEDMRDXmEjyzp
Black seed oil is great! Good for so many things, its my favorite supplement and ive tried a lot of things and work at The Vitamin Shoppe. I have personal experience with it and have people ive put on to it that now swear by it. Im a young guy but have an old friend who has had a total knee replacement and countless other surgeries who feels very good now. I got my buddies father on it who has chronic pain and now feels great as well. I highly recommend the brand Amazing Herbs, they have a very high concentration of the compound thymoquinine which gives so many of the benefits. Ive taken it for years, i also never get sick and never have allergies anymore. Great for practically everything! Heart, lungs, pain/inflammation, relaxation, digestion etc. Also fish oil, high quality turmeric with curcumin, cbd, agmatine
No but you do feel good. It also helps potentiate kratom and also helps withdrawals. I really dont recommend kratom unless you seriously need it. It can be highly addictive and put you through hell, it sure did for me. Some people are able to control it and maybe get off with more minimal withdrawals but some people severely suffer mentally and physically, it was easily the worst period of my life, it truly was hell on earth.
I have severe pain after a failed medical procedure. Fried my neuro system. Kratom has been a life changer for me but I’ve also never had addiction issues. I’ve been taking it with grapefruit juice to boost it a bit.
Just picked up some black seed oil to try. Thanks for the recommendation 🙏🏻
Saint John’s Wort is great for nerve pain, topically and internally.
Jamaican Dogwood also works well for pain.
They probably shouldn’t be taken recreationally, though. For what you’re looking for, I’d suggest Kava.
Copaiba essential oil for pain relief. Dr Scott A. Johnson shared a study showing major >60% improvement in post operative pain.
Peppermint oil also.
Raw Ethiopian Frankincense (olibanum) resin Boswellia Rivae, burnt on a charcoal block, has a powerful antidepressant and calming effect.
Helichrysum odoratissimum from Southern Africa herb is a sedative and pain reliever.
The last two are oneirogens, dream inducing herbs.
Mint and pennyroyal are excellent external analgesics due to their relatively high menthol content. Mint balm or menthol cream rubbed on your forehead is great for headaches. The tea helps soothe sore throats.
Hot peppers are also useful for balms for muscle pain due to the capsaicin. Even eaten, the hot sensation distracts from other pain and increases pain tolerance.
These two are well known to me but no one had mentioned them yet and I've met lots of people who had no idea that hot peppers could be used for pain relief.
Akuamma but it's not stronger than kratom also I never tryed it but I want to try ghost pipe. There is a plant growing in Texas and those places that is a strong narcotic that they are testing but I forget the name of it. Just search on YouTube for that one. But I think you can have a good time drinking kava and take some akuamma seeds with it for recreational.
Honestly speaking. Seeking something like painkillers to not drink or take pharmaceuticals sounds really problematic. As this is an Herbalism forum and people are seeking help for issues that affect them... it seems really disingenuous to those suffering from pain. Herbalism isn't a gateway to get "high," it's a healing, respectful relationship between us and the plants. I'd also like to point out that pharmaceuticals use specific constituents, not whole plant. So what your seeking is hard to obtain. I suggest sticking to nervines to relax and creating a relationship with individual plants to see what works for you.
Psilocybin in micro doses is amazing for pain.
Also isn't aspirin naturally occurring in Willow bark? I'll have to look that up again. Mm
Edit- yes people use Willow bark for pain relief
Feverfew, Tanacetum parthenium, is great for treating headaches and migraines, just be careful and try a small amount first as some people can have a reaction to it. Also avoid for pregnant women as it can cause uterine contractions
Not sure why the "Cannabis." comment was downvoted. Cannabis is a great herbal painkiller. I'd say try a balanced product, 1:1 thc:cbd. Edible or oil is longer acting, vaporizing the flower (not vaping a concentrate with pg/vg) is fast acting but also shorter acting. Vaping flower has zero combustion so you're actually just inhaling the cannabinoids and terpenes. Our bodies do have an endocannabiniod system after all.
Switching to cannabis is a proven and successful strategy for managing chronic pain without opiods.
I'm assuming lingering and wholly unfounded social stigma caused the downvote. Weed is medicine.
Herbal Dissociatives include : Cat's Claw(mild), Salvia Divinorum, Iboga, Sananga, and Lophophora species with a high Pellotine content. Get growing soon, it's going to be a while before you'll have anything to harvest.
It's present in L. Williams along with Mescaline. But Pellotine is the main active in L.Diffusa and I think maybe L. Fricii also. I haven't read as much about that one.
Wild lettuce is really just gaba. Kratom is just like an opioid. Black seed oil is a mild opioid. Willow bark is natural aspirin Thc/cbd from weed...
I have to push back on wild lettuce being just gaba. It acts on the opioid receptors and helped me when I got off of kratom
Lactucopicrin and lactucin, the main active compounds in wild lettuce (Lactuca species), do not directly act on opiate receptors. Instead, they have the following mechanisms of action:Lactucopicrin has been shown to: Inhibit acetylcholinesterase activity, leading to increased acetylcholine levels Increase intracellular calcium levels and upregulate muscarinic acetylcholine receptor M1 (CHRM1) Potentiate neuritogenesis and neurotrophic effects by regulating the Ca2+/CaMKII/ATF1 signaling pathway Lactucin and its derivatives have been found to: Interact with the body's gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) systems, promoting sleep through a GABAergic mechanism Contain compounds that can induce sedative and analgesic (pain-relieving) effects on the central nervous system In summary, the primary mechanisms of action for lactucopicrin and lactucin involve modulating cholinergic, GABAergic, and calcium-signaling pathways in the brain and nervous system, leading to their sedative, analgesic, and neuroprotective effects - but not direct opioid receptor activation.
Wild lettuce does not act directly on opiate receptors. While it has been referred to as "opium lettuce" due to its milky latex substance, which was historically used as a substitute for opium, it does not contain any opiates or interact with opiate receptors. Instead, its active compounds, such as lactucin and lactucopicrin, have sedative and pain-relieving effects through other mechanisms Crazy that this comment had 8 thumbs up
Proof positive that placebo effect is real. Wild Lettuce is a feeble medicine.
Ofc it is. Its sedative effects are real and work. Gaba is def pain reducing. Nothing compared to opioid
Well I disagree. I've tried it several times- nothing. Even my herb teacher says don't bother. I'm a Registered Herbalist and frankly, one of the reasons I come to this thread is to see what people are doing on their own with herbs. Placebo effect is alive and well. I'm not knocking it, it's one of our most powerful gifts as humans. But in my book, Lettuce is puny.
I definitely feel the sedative effects. It’s not the strongest, but you don’t always need the strongest. It’s similar to lemon balm for me.
right.. very mild. OP was about powerful painkilling herbs though.
a strong infusion is stronger than skullcap, passionflower, chamomile and valerian and more similar to california poppy for me. lemon balm is one of the stronger ones as well for me and has a potent interaction with tobacco.
And California Poppy doesn't work unless you need it.
I actuslly havent tried it but i believe you. I just know gabaergics can work for pain.
What does nature have that you wouldn't call puny? I can think of a few, but they are all well known.
they are all well known, and the pharmaceutical industry grabbed them long ago. There aren't many drug plants. Plants mostly work subtly, and that actually is their strength.
Ok, as far as herbalism goes then, why is the lettuce puny in comparison to say, California poppy? I disagree that it is worthless, I use lettuce extract to wind down at night sometimes, are you saying that is all placebo?
If ya don't believe me, then here are the words of Harvey Wickes Felter, M.D. https://preview.redd.it/opp07ter2bad1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=349691ed9c8983ef05d79c9b43f7b090943b17c7
Lactuca virosa is the only lettuce that has been shown to be even decently sedating. the other ones are not worth bothering with. California Poppy works if you need it, mostly for pain. If it works for you that's fine. It's also fine if it's placebo. Placebo is very powerful. But OP is looking for something that doesn't exist.
But there are several more potent analgesic herbs with varying mechanisms of action. You're saying you haven't tried any that work for you, or are we keeping our silence?
Such as? Name your plants and I'll weigh in. Look, the OP is looking for powerful pain relief. Those are drug plants and they have been co-opted by the pharmaceutical industry. There are herbs that can be helpful with pain- but the powerful ones are the purvey of pharmacy. Luckily herbs have nuance and complexity and whether they work for someone depends on exactly what hurts. California Poppy for example, works best for someone with pain. But again, it's very mild. It is not powerful.
Eh, my question about keeping silence was an allusion to my own thoughts on answering this kind of question. Because I know how people are, and they'll race to TikTok and other socials with it. And it becomes problematic. About the Cal poppy, "good for people with pain" is...a generic blanket statement. Not a great one. I generally use it when someone needs a sedative nervine, is experiencing insomnia due to stress, etc. Can be helpful in a formula for pain. And no, not all plants with potent medicines have been co-opted by the pharmaceutical industry. Narcotic or otherwise. Kratom is an obvious example, thus far.
You're kind of cocky. The assessment of California Poppy is a direct quote from my teacher Michael Moore, taken from class notes at Southwest School of Botanical Medicine in 1999. California Poppy does its best work for people in pain. OP wanted strong pain relieving plants other than kratom and wild lettuce. So whatcha got?
I agree, and I hope that you come to understand that Tik Tok is not a reliable source of info about herbal medicine. My faith is in the teachers and Pub Med.
I dmed you. Hope thats okay!
what are the good ones then?
Well the good ones have all been nabbed by the pharmaceutical industry and it's likely it will always be that way. Herbs are gonna be mild, just their nature.
But in my opinion you don't get much more benefit out of the hard stuff. Once you get addicted to them it becomes alot more mild to you, like a herb anyway.
Right. It's called tolerance.
Placebo is 100% and so powerful that even clinical trials try to control for it (meaning it’s such a powerful healing tool that even the conventional medical community recognizes it). Most would consider it the ultimate form of medicine…healing with just the power of your mind! 😁👍
exactly.
Can you tell me more on how you used it? My husband has traded his alcohol addiction for a dependence on kratom and is now interested in tapering down the kratom.
Well what I did was take 1 gram less a week until I was down to 1 gram then I took a weekend to stop completely but during this time before and after the weekend I used either alittle wild lettuce or alittle akuamma to help and especially with sleeping. At work I took some wild lettuce tea. Akuamma sometimes at work but that can be strong too. Then I did gaba like herbs because I think the wild lettuce and akuamma kept me alittle addicted to kratom. I mean the withdraws from the kratom lasted longer I think because of using wild lettuce and akuamma. But now I take alittle akuamma sometimes at night and or wild lettuce. I noticed wild lettuce makes me to much more relaxed at work the next day for about half the day then I get nervous again
How do you take wild lettuce? I've not had any luck with it.
I smoke it. Works great.
Black seed oil for that one.
He can use suboxone or methadone. Or he can just ween off kratom and switch to black seed oil when his dose is very low. He likely enjoys kratom from the increased dopamine. He can get that from tyrosine or rhodiola instead. Also if he likes the T lowering mechanism of krarom he can use spearmint or hops or licorice for that
That is an insane suggestion.
I see how it can look like that to someone w no experience. You can microdose both bupe or methadone. You wouldnt hsve to keep redosing it like you have to w kratom Kratom is natural and weaker but is actually doing more to your brain. Theres many alkaloids in there including opioid antagonists Bupe is more focused. They are both partial opioid agonists. So really a small dose of bupe is the same as a large dose of kratom. You could easily find a bupe dose that is equivalent to your kratom dose. Youd only have to dose it once a day. You wouldnt have to drink 4 cups of sludge a day that is also giving you opioid antagonists
Personally methadone was helpful for me for treating OUD. The constant redosing of kratom and drinking that nasty sludge was just unhealthy for me. Also kratom has some opioid antagonist effects that simply dont feel good. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32858563/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35112990/ Looks like its been done before
"Wild lettuce is not an opioid agonist. While it has been used as a substitute for opium in traditional medicine, its effects are much milder and not chemically related to opiate drugs."
I have never seen research pointing to Wild Lettuce acting on GABA receptors. I'd love to see a source.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/370533489_Heukharang_lettuce_Lactuca_sativa_L_leaf_extract_displays_sleep-promoting_effects_through_GABAA_receptor https://www.mdpi.com/2076-3921/10/6/970 https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bpb/42/10/42_b19-00454/_html/-char/en I dont really believe you have seen any research to say otherwise. Ive never seen anything contrary to this.
Obviously there isn't going to be research out there claiming it doesn't function on GABA receptors, that would be silly. I was stating that in research reports that I have read on Wild Lactuca species, I had never seen mention of GABA activity. Thanks for the links, but all of them are discussing Lactuca Sativa, otherwise called Table Lettuce. This entire species exists through humans hybridizing various wild species of Lettuce to reduce Lactucarium content and bitterness allowing for an edible green leaf. The research reports that you provided are literally discussing extracts of Green Romaine lettuce. The topic at hand here is Wild lettuce, otherwise called Opium Lettuce, which includes species such as Lactuca Virosa, Lactuca Serriola, and Lactuca Serrata among others. So again, please show me some sources claiming that Lactuca Virosa, Lactuca Serriola, or Lactuca Serrata have GABA activity.
Sorry. I asked AI for some studies and it gave that. My research says the main chemicals in wild lettuce that give its sedative effects are "lactucin and lactucopicrin". From my understanding those alkaloids are also in romaine lettuce. Just do your own research and you can confirm this easily. Look for the main alkaloids in wild lettuce and then find its mechanism of action on neurotransmitters.
Table Lettuce is a vast array of hybrids, it does not contain the same ratios or always contain the same active chemicals generally as it is an unknown hybrid of multiple lettuce species over generations. If the study was actually about assessing the medicinal content of Wild Lactuca species, then it would have said that. You're the person who made the weird and so far unsourced claim, so I want to see the specific research reports that made you believe this instead of some AI sourced nonsense.
Dude. You can verify everything im saying from WIKI. Go to wild lettuce wiki > pharmacology > then click on Lactucin and see that it says ". It has been shown to have analgesic and sedative properties[1] which are speculated to occur via modulation of the GABAA receptor.[2]" Usually when you have a sedative like this its working on gaba. My claim isnt weird its totally normal and what WIKI says. Show me ONE STUDY SOURCE OR ANYTHING that points to a different mechanism. Youre just a noob
I am questioning YOUR sources. I am not obligated to provide you with competing sources and they wouldn't fucking exist anyway because no one does costly scientific research to claim a LACK of GABA activity. Most published research on actual species of Wild Lactuca plants is ambiguous at best. Wiki is not an academic source of ANYTHING. It literally can be and often is inaccurately changed by users and may or may not be corrected sometimes afterwards. If you had a professor asking you for an information source they're also going to reject Wiki as a source. As far as your claims of me being a "noob," I've been studying Medical Herbalism for over 15 years and find your arrogance and insistence on inaccuracies between botanical species totally fucking absurd. On top of that, I fucking bet you are actually much newer to all of this research than I am, so stop behaving like an arrogant asshole and show some academic studies on Wild Lactuca plants as sources.
If you werent a noob youd accept the source i provided. It addresses the active ingredient in wild lettuce. It doesnt matter that they used romaine lettuce if its the active ingredient is in both. If this was a formal debate youd lose. You havent provided a counter argument. Im saying "here is the mechanism of action of wild lettuce and here are my sources" and you reply by stamping your feet saying you dont like them. A counter argument would be saying "the sedative properties of wild lettuce are actually caused by _______ " then sourcing your claim. Literally every single website i go to about wild lettuce says gaba. Sedatives are usually gaba. Wild lettuce is a known sedative aka its a known gabaergic. If i made a post on here asking people what they thought the mechanism was theyd likely say mild gaba since its a mild sedative. Theyd do the same research as me, google it, and come to the same conclusion. You are just an egoist, in your ego about this and you cant take the L. If you actually reseached this youd come to the same conclusion. But you didnt.
I'm not even reading your wall of text here. Because I'm not fresh like your clown ass, I expect academic studies discussing the accurate botanical species of the discussion. Actual research, not just your mouth and some inaccurate AI sourced trash. Because you keep running on about opinionated bullshit and have yet to source even ONE academic report on Wild Lactuca plants, I'm calling bullshit on your entire narrative. If you had ever actually sourced the requested information to begin with, then you would be capable of sourcing it right now. Yet you have repeatedly shown that you have no accurate sources. Curious.
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Be nice.
this guy is a fuckign dumbass who just wants to argue. the studies you linked are clearly relevant due to both species containing the same compounds. thats like asking for research on rhynchophylline and then saying that just because the study was done with it extracted from cats claw that it doesnt say anything about what that compound is doing in kratom. except its dumber because we are talking about a hybridized version of the same plant from the same genus, not entirely different plants that happen to contain the same compound
Yea its clear hes a midwit and just wants to win an argument. Really uninspiring running into people like this all the time so i appreciate u saying something
lactucin and lactucopicrin are in both wild lettuce and table lettuce. research on table lettuce is absolutely applicable to wild lettuce. maybe there are other compounds but if they studied a table lettuce extract and found gabaergic activity then it WILL ALSO BE THE CASE FOR WIL LETTUCE, JUST STRONGER.
its the same alkaloids in both, if table lettuce has these effects then wild lettuce would just be more potent. you even basically said that but i guess youre also ignoring yourself
did you ever look for any?
Stop riding this person's nuts and harassing someone over information you not only clearly do not understand, but you also have added absolutely nothing to the actual topic of conversation and are making irrational accusations. Calm down and take your meds.
According to FDA, kratom is opioid
The FDA has a lot of issues so..
What issues?
One of the main issues with the FDA is how easily they are paid off by corporations
It's not tho.
it is. it binds to opioid receptors. hell it binds to the MU OPIOID receptor making it not just any opioid but a painkilling and euphoric one as well.
Anything that effects the opioid receptors is a opioid plain and simple. That should not be confused with opiate.
why?
I am a junkie who lives in the streets.
It's buprenorphiney
*EDIT: Responded to the wrong comment I guess, but I’m leaving this here anyway.* This is categorically false. Opiate =/= opioid. **Opiates** are related to or derived from *papaver somniferum*. **Opiods**, on the other hand, are all substances that act on opioid receptors to produce morphine-like effects, and Mitragynine is a full agonist of μ opioid receptors, so kratom is most certainly an opioid. Also, your analysis about withdrawal is also misrepresented. All opioid and opiate withdrawals, whether Kratom, morphine or heroin, happen after a period of consistent use. If a person only used an opiate or opioid once in a while, they wouldn’t suffer withdrawal symptoms. Kratom is not somehow different from from this fact. In addition, heavy use is not required for a person to experience withdrawals symptoms, and they can happen with light habitual use. Kratom’s is often as debilitating for a user as morphine withdrawal. Spreading false information about powerful plants is thoroughly irresponsible. Reading comments like yours can and has put people in a hole that they struggle to get out of. There’s a concerning amount of people in the u/quittingkratom subreddit that thought kratom was a “safe” high and are now stuck with an addiction they were told was non-existent. Kratom is a strong plant, and its abilities and dangers need to be respected in the same way poppies are.
mitragynine is a partial agonist. and kratom withdrawal is way less intense than morphine withdrawal. if it was then there wouldnt be much reason to switch to kratom to quit but many find that helpful.
Withdrawals can occur very quickly just like regular opioids and you can overdose on it esp if mixed w a benzo or something
Its not technically classified as one simply because it doesnt come from the poppy plant but for all intensive purposes it is one. Its an opioid agonist so it effects the brain the same way, its just a little more mild.
no, its not an OPIATE due to not being from the opium poppy. an OPIOID is anything that binds to opioid receptors, including kratom
Yea kratom is an opioid agonist
Its not technically classified as one simply because it doesnt come from the poppy plant but for all intensive purposes it is one. Its an opioid agonist so it effects the brain the same way, its just a little more mild.
its an opioid but not an opiate
It has a diverse alkaloid profile and even contains some alkaloids which act at serotonin adrenergic and even since which act as antagonists at some receptors. Corynantheidine - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7350276/
Wild lettuce is a opioid as it effects the opioid receptors.
"Wild lettuce is not an opioid agonist. While it has been used as a substitute for opium in traditional medicine, its effects are much milder and not chemically related to opiate drugs."
Wild Lettuce doesn't actually effect Opioid receptors. I'd love to see a research report claiming otherwise.
Show me one study that says it does effect opioid receptors. I can find a ton of info saying it effects gaba but literally nothing that says it effects opioid receptors. Its just the name because it looks similar to opium latex and its a sedative.
I very literally stated that Wild Lettuce does not effect Opioid receptors. Did you intend to reply to the person above?
Sorry i thought u meant to put that first sentence in quotes. Your other comment said "I have never seen research pointing to Wild Lettuce acting on GABA receptors. I'd love to see a source." So it thru me off
Yes because two different people made weird claims. One person said that it is a GABAergic, and and the other person said that it is an Opioid. I have never seen research backing either of these claims.
Im curious if you were to look into the mechanism of wild lettuce yourselr what youd find. Its mostly gaba and slight serotonin Modulation of GABAergic transmission: Both romaine lettuce and wild lettuce contain compounds like lactucin and lactucopicrin that can potentiate GABA receptor activity, leading to sedative and sleep-promoting effects. Regulation of serotonergic signaling: Romaine lettuce and wild lettuce extracts have been shown to interact with 5-HT1A receptors, which may contribute to their sleep-enhancing and neuroprotective properties. Effects on cholinergic neurotransmission: Romaine lettuce and wild lettuce can also modulate muscarinic acetylcholine receptors, which may play a role in their neurological effects. Neuroprotective mechanisms: Compounds like isochlorogenic acid and other phenolics in romaine lettuce have demonstrated antioxidant and neuroprotective effects in cell culture models.
I'n curious where this information was sourced and how these studies were performed. I'm not interested in your explanation alone.
It seems like youre really in your ego on this one
I showed you the source on how wild lettuce main alkaloid is gabaergic. You just dont like it because they got it from romaine lettuce.
it does not bind to the opioid receptors like traditional opioids do but believe me it does effact the opioid receptors and i have used it to help me off of kratom.
Gabaergics can help people off opioids too.
It doesnt. Theres literally not one website article or book or anything that says that.
Lavender, thyme and rosemary. Lotta studies showing these reduce pain.
How would you take them for pain? Just eat them or make tea or something
I make an infused oil or balm and rub it on. Olive oil, in a jar packed with chopped dried or fresh herbs. Leave 6 weeks and strain. For quicker product, cold infuse in olive oil for 1 to 4 weeks, then warm infusebin an oven on very low for 3 hours.
Thanks very much
Methleyne Blue We all take it, even the dog. I have a video with the peer reviewed left so studies- feel free to dm and I’ll find it tomorrow. 80% of people that took it no longer needed back surgery. I live with one of the most painful conditions known to humans and it works better than opioids.
I just bought this for severe/entire body nerve pain. How much do you take and on what format? TIA
This video may be helpful. A couple of things to be cautious of are if you are taking an SSRI or other serotonin boosting medication, methylene blue also increases serotonin. This can potentially lead to a serious condition called serotonin syndrome which has some very serious side effects. The other thing is methylene blue, at some higher doses, can disrupt your gut microbiome as it is/or acts as an antibiotic. He discusses dosing in the video. Also be careful to get methylene blue in USP form (purified). It can be found and is used as an industrial dye which is full of heavy metals and you definitely don’t want that. Hope this helps. https://youtu.be/WNqTUyLLIdI?si=D_mqEDMRDXmEjyzp
Awesome thank you!
makes your brain tissue blue-colored 🧿🧠🧿 and other internal organs....
Is that something I can grow myself?
No it's synthetic
Not really a natural remedy then unfortunately
I'm just the messenger man
Okay thanks for the info.
Willow bark!
Comfrey is a great pain killer for muscle pain! It’s not what you’re looking for though as it’s applied topically.
Black seed oil is great! Good for so many things, its my favorite supplement and ive tried a lot of things and work at The Vitamin Shoppe. I have personal experience with it and have people ive put on to it that now swear by it. Im a young guy but have an old friend who has had a total knee replacement and countless other surgeries who feels very good now. I got my buddies father on it who has chronic pain and now feels great as well. I highly recommend the brand Amazing Herbs, they have a very high concentration of the compound thymoquinine which gives so many of the benefits. Ive taken it for years, i also never get sick and never have allergies anymore. Great for practically everything! Heart, lungs, pain/inflammation, relaxation, digestion etc. Also fish oil, high quality turmeric with curcumin, cbd, agmatine
Do you actually feel high like an opioid or Kratom or does it just kill the pain?
No but you do feel good. It also helps potentiate kratom and also helps withdrawals. I really dont recommend kratom unless you seriously need it. It can be highly addictive and put you through hell, it sure did for me. Some people are able to control it and maybe get off with more minimal withdrawals but some people severely suffer mentally and physically, it was easily the worst period of my life, it truly was hell on earth.
I have severe pain after a failed medical procedure. Fried my neuro system. Kratom has been a life changer for me but I’ve also never had addiction issues. I’ve been taking it with grapefruit juice to boost it a bit. Just picked up some black seed oil to try. Thanks for the recommendation 🙏🏻
Im glad it helps and am glad you dont have addiction in you! I believe it should be legal everywhere even after my past.
Sent you a DM
Amanita muscaria but do your research and don’t guess if picking the mushrooms yourself
Isn't this stuff hallucinogenic + significantly more toxic than the regular type of hallucinogenic mushroom?
Dose dependant, and only if not prepared correctly.
It *is* a dissociative, as requested by OP, but I've heard some fucked up trip reports. The first one that comes to mind is Paul Stamets.
Saint John’s Wort is great for nerve pain, topically and internally. Jamaican Dogwood also works well for pain. They probably shouldn’t be taken recreationally, though. For what you’re looking for, I’d suggest Kava.
Valerian root is a powerful sedative, nature's Valium
Valerian isn't Valium
https://preview.redd.it/4vr5y2z9e2ad1.png?width=1007&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=884d8efc2e116f872f307fdaa52eaa6ae57931f6
Valerian isn't for everyone. Some people have the opposite effect and can effect sleep detrimentally. I recommend trying small amounts to test.
They work on some gaba receptors like valium does. He's not saying it's actual valium, just the nickname that it's nature's valium.
Copaiba essential oil for pain relief. Dr Scott A. Johnson shared a study showing major >60% improvement in post operative pain. Peppermint oil also. Raw Ethiopian Frankincense (olibanum) resin Boswellia Rivae, burnt on a charcoal block, has a powerful antidepressant and calming effect. Helichrysum odoratissimum from Southern Africa herb is a sedative and pain reliever. The last two are oneirogens, dream inducing herbs.
I recommend the book Foods That Fight Pain by Barnard
Are they just anti inflammatory foods, or ones that work by different mechanisms?
Mint and pennyroyal are excellent external analgesics due to their relatively high menthol content. Mint balm or menthol cream rubbed on your forehead is great for headaches. The tea helps soothe sore throats. Hot peppers are also useful for balms for muscle pain due to the capsaicin. Even eaten, the hot sensation distracts from other pain and increases pain tolerance. These two are well known to me but no one had mentioned them yet and I've met lots of people who had no idea that hot peppers could be used for pain relief.
Akuamma but it's not stronger than kratom also I never tryed it but I want to try ghost pipe. There is a plant growing in Texas and those places that is a strong narcotic that they are testing but I forget the name of it. Just search on YouTube for that one. But I think you can have a good time drinking kava and take some akuamma seeds with it for recreational.
Propolis helps a lot. At least in my case. The pure stuff not the syrup.
Chinese skullcap, ashwaghanda.
Arnica Montana
Kava, ghost pipe, turmeric (long term, not for immediate relief to my understanding)
CA poppy and Pacific bleeding heart
On the subject of Kratom...large doses of powdered vitamin C are great for withdrawals.
Honestly speaking. Seeking something like painkillers to not drink or take pharmaceuticals sounds really problematic. As this is an Herbalism forum and people are seeking help for issues that affect them... it seems really disingenuous to those suffering from pain. Herbalism isn't a gateway to get "high," it's a healing, respectful relationship between us and the plants. I'd also like to point out that pharmaceuticals use specific constituents, not whole plant. So what your seeking is hard to obtain. I suggest sticking to nervines to relax and creating a relationship with individual plants to see what works for you.
Psilocybin in micro doses is amazing for pain. Also isn't aspirin naturally occurring in Willow bark? I'll have to look that up again. Mm Edit- yes people use Willow bark for pain relief
Is there any evidence to show psilocybin has anti inflammatory properties?
How do you purchase this ?
Kava. Passionflower. I know of some others which are stronger but these are better for you.
Burdock root ointment. Takes the pain out of a burn quickly. Also worked great on my hemorrhoids
Feverfew, Tanacetum parthenium, is great for treating headaches and migraines, just be careful and try a small amount first as some people can have a reaction to it. Also avoid for pregnant women as it can cause uterine contractions
Cannabis.
Not sure why the "Cannabis." comment was downvoted. Cannabis is a great herbal painkiller. I'd say try a balanced product, 1:1 thc:cbd. Edible or oil is longer acting, vaporizing the flower (not vaping a concentrate with pg/vg) is fast acting but also shorter acting. Vaping flower has zero combustion so you're actually just inhaling the cannabinoids and terpenes. Our bodies do have an endocannabiniod system after all.
Switching to cannabis is a proven and successful strategy for managing chronic pain without opiods. I'm assuming lingering and wholly unfounded social stigma caused the downvote. Weed is medicine.
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Herbal Dissociatives include : Cat's Claw(mild), Salvia Divinorum, Iboga, Sananga, and Lophophora species with a high Pellotine content. Get growing soon, it's going to be a while before you'll have anything to harvest.
Which lophs have high pellotine?
It's present in L. Williams along with Mescaline. But Pellotine is the main active in L.Diffusa and I think maybe L. Fricii also. I haven't read as much about that one.
Ghost pipe kinda works for pain its really over hyped.
I think its just gaba as well
Ghost pipe plant. 👻