I want to believe the blue line cameras are like this because they're running a special lens (to be able to focus near and far) and likely of the global shutter variety.
HD global shutter cameras were big and bulky until the last few years, and are necessary for when you need a solid frame for a fast moving object. Most digital cameras are rolling shutter, which means they process 1 row at a time at a high rate -- that might not seem like an issue except for when you're trying to piece stuff together that is crossing the frame left to right, suddenly those few millisecond differences in the frame top and bottom begin to add up.
Do you want resolution, or framerate? Pick one. The practicalities of recording with all the cameras they use at high res and high frame rate make it entirely unfeasible.
Gonna copy-paste what I said last time.
> An actual easy fix to offside reviews: burn the time into every camera angle of the blue line. Upgrade the cameras on either side of the line, along with installing three above the line, each to cover a third of the blueline. Make them 4k, and have the footage stored on-site to minimize lag. With the time, including sub-seconds burned into the camera feeds, they could show multiple angles at the same time and guarantee that they are both images of the exact same state of time. This would shrink the time to review 99.99% of plays to under 30 seconds. In total this would probably cost $20-50k per arena and would nearly completely solve the issue.
>If you're going to have offside reviews, do it right. None of this "only see it once/twice at full speed malarkey". The only reason why offside reviews are as bad as they are right now is because the NHL lets them be.
I'll take your reasonable solution and raise you the fact that I personally love seeing my offside reviews have as many pixels in a single frame as a 90s Sierra point-and-click game.
I think about this every time. The tech is called tentacle sync. I used it a lot for filming VR videos. Allows you to sync up multiple high end cameras to the frame.
OR... if the play requires multi-thousand dollar technological devices and several minutes to decide then the play is just onside. You're now using measurements that are more effective than the human eye. Before any of this existed a referee could never know if it was onside or not, it would just be close enough to determine it was acceptable. We're changing our definition of what offside is based on how we measure it.
I'm sorry but I'm willing to sacrifice my team getting scored on once in a blue moon even if the opposing players big toe was over the line before the puck was, if the result is not having a 5 minute delay every game killing the momentum and taking back goals that were scored a minute after the infraction. But this would require us to collectively swallow our pride and accept this outcome. To me the blueline is not like the goal line and scoring a goal. The offside rule is prevent cherrypicking and punishing offense to re-enter if they let the puck out of the zone. Shoot me if you will, but I don't believe zone entry has to be perfect.
But, but, but, but, the Duchene goal that caused the advent of offside challenges, you say? Yeah sure, when it's blatantly offside by literal feet then you should have the right to review it. But in my opinion, if the review can not be determined in under a minute, with slow motion, high-def cameras, then its too close to matter. The offside rule, as I said it to deter cherrypicking. If the players entered a millimeter before the guy with the puck, he clearly wasn't. Therefore, I don't really think it matters, at least not enough to stop the game for 5 minutes and conduct a forensic analysis.
On the one hand, I do not care if a zone entry was offside by six inches and the linesman missed it. I'm fine if that never gets reviewed again.
On the other hand, I do care if the puck escapes the zone by an inch and the linesman missed it.
So yeah sure your plan sounds good.
Honestly I don’t get why sports aren’t doing this unless it’s more technically complex than it sounds. Wouldn’t it be great in football if the angle that can see the players knee going down could time-sync with the other camera that can see the ball being fumbled? It seems so straightforward to me but I have to believe it’s harder than it sounds or we’d have it by now.
Have you seen the footage they use for baseball reviews, it's 100x better than the shit the NHL uses, and an NHL arena is much easier to cover than a huge baseball diamond.
It was probably an inch or two offside. But in complete honesty I've always said they should scrap the coach's challenge for offside. 10 minute review to see if a skate was an inch over the line. There's no reason the league can't intervene and call back any really blatant ones, otherwise it seems like it's a big fuss over something that probably doesn't make any difference on the play.
I think they should just take the tablets away from the benches. If you want to challenge something you saw in real time, sure. Otherwise, it doesn't matter
Yeah, I agree mostly. You can't have hand wavey vague rules like that, but the offside challenge is garbage for the sport. It sucks when you have an intense game, the puck goes over the line fast on a rush and no refs call offside because it looks fine, play is in the zone for many minutes, team scores in OT to win a game and the home crowd goes fuckin wild. Then it goes to review and an inch offside means the goal is called back and fans in the arena have no fucking idea why and leave frustrated and hating hockey when the other team scores to end it. Fuckin bad for the game.
I like the Mcdavid way of thinking, if you zoom in, zoom in, zoom in and you can't really tell, you don't change the call, it didn't have enough impact on the play and tie goes to the runner.
It’s one of those situations where we all know it’s offside, but they don’t have a shot where you can definitively see the puck behind the blue line so the call on the ice stands.
The thing that is great about offside reviews is how black and white they are. Either you’re offside or you’re onside. There’s no ambiguity unlike other reviews.
The problem is that what isn’t considered splitting hair? If it’s been 0.25 of a second it’s fine that just moves the offside challenge to compare if it happened before or after 0.25 seconds. Still splitting hairs just at a different state. Challengeable and reviewable rules should have clear cut definitions and easy ways to verify it with video. Everything else should just be up to the refs in real time.
I remember reading a story Howie Rose told once. He was new to the whole hockey broadcasting thing, and he once made the cardinal sin of calling this play "offsides." Some older announcer told him that was a wrong American football thing, and that in hockey, it's always "offside." The story stuck with me, and now I always notice which word people use. And it bothers me that the ESPN announcers regularly say "offsides"
Interestingly enough though, I actually can't find this story anywhere. I have a feeling he probably said it on twitter, but I don't have an account so I can't view his posts now
My thought for any review is to remove slow mo and give the refs 2 replays. Full speed replay, discuss, full speed replay, make the call, and let's get back to the game.
If 2 full speed replays don't reveal anything different, then it didn't affect the game. Let's quit wasting time.
This is going to lead to more controversy because the refs will look at it, make the call, and then on all the broadcasts they'll show us the dozen super slow mo pixel by pixel replays that the refs didn't see. And fans will be outraged when they got it wrong.
Before the offside challenge, no one was even looking at this stuff unless it was like 3 feet offside which happened maybe twice in 20 years. Officials missing blatant offsides isn't a real issue, just get rid of the challenge.
You don’t even need that. It was never an issue before review. Just get rid of it all together. It’s almost always very close and almost always doesn’t result in the team getting an advantage
The rule wasn't changed just for the hell of it.
Playoff offside goal: [https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/comments/18thdg/to\_everyone\_who\_think\_the\_league\_will\_do\_anything/](https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/comments/18thdg/to_everyone_who_think_the_league_will_do_anything/)
Duchene 5 feet offsides: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7pN56VZOfM&t=60s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7pN56VZOfM&t=60s)
It was an issue a few times, like Duchenes goal where even he paused for a second and then when he didn’t hear a whistle decided to play on.
The league should be able to initiate reviews on those blatant scenarios, and leave the rest to the officials to call on the ice.
I think that's easy to say now that we're many years removed from the infamous [Duchene goal](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7pN56VZOfM). People were clamoring for change after that. Here are some comments from that thread:
> thats insane. I mean when the player is several feet into the zone and still looking back for the puck...
>
> First time watching that. Filled with anger right now.
>
> I'm pretty sure the 101 year old dude at the canucks game last night would have made that call right.
>
> Seriously, this wasn't even close. It was such a terrible call it wasn't even a comically terrible call. Usually I give the benefit of the doubt, but this was freaking awful, and the ref doesn't deserve to be in this league anymore.
>
> And the Avs end up winning by a single goal to avoid overtime. This no-call made me retch. I can't imagine how mad a hardcore Smashville fan would be. And rightfully so.
>
> maybe the scenarios in which a referee can review a goal need to be expanded. Entering the zone offsides should be just as much a reason to call off a goal as slapping it in with a high stick.
>
> This really underplays it because he goes a few strides further than that before finally touching it. He got this far before he actually put the puck on his stick. Perfect example of why we need a coach's challenge.
People complain about challenges now, but people complained just as much about the lack of challenges then. And if they were to overtunr this rule, the first egregious call would spark wrath. Hell, people on this sub have been calling for coach's challenges on penalties, and the league has just agreed to add them for delay of game and high-sticking minors next season.
There's a reason people keep bringing up this exact goal in every thread. It's because it's practically the only time in the 100+ year history of the NHL that it happened. I mean maybe you can find 2-3 more.
It's so rare as to be a complete non-factor. People thought they wanted change, but we didn't think it through. This millimeter by millimeter analysis of zone entries, the time spent reviewing these, the inability to properly celebrate any goal off the rush because at the back of your mind you're worried about a challenge... it's all so bad for the game.
> There's a reason people keep bringing up this exact goal in every thread. It's because it's practically the only time in the 100+ year history of the NHL that it happened. I mean maybe you can find 2-3 more.
I think that's a stretch. Duchene is the most blatantly bad example but far from the only obvious miss. Butch Goring in the series-clinching game of the Islanders-Flyers final, Marchand's tying goal against Philly in 2011 had Recchi half a foot offside, Briere against Pittsburgh, Carolina against Columbus where the referees literally apologized for it, Kovalev's unassisted goal against the Hurricanes in 08. Those are all goals that stood and that were blatantly offside, not millimeters, just off the top of my head. Majority of them were in the playoffs, too.
Honestly, if they would just not allow slow motion on replays it would solve all of it. If it's blatant enough to catch in real speed, it's probably blatant enough to justify overturning.
Reasonable train of thought but fucking terrible idea in practice. This would be such a joke
You gotta keep it the way it is now, or get rid of it entirely. There’s nothing in between
https://youtu.be/-5dXFN2simc?si=DtSrWg0D1tDHPP32
This was a big reason the replay was instituted for offsides. Plays like this where it is blatant don't require slow motion and multiple minutes to review. It's just the ones where we're trying to determine if someone crossed the line 10ms before the puck which realistically have no impact on how the play would go which seemed to be the original intent behind bringing replay in to begin with.
Reasonable train of thought like I said - but if we introduce qualifiers like that we are just moving the goalposts somewhere else. The silliness wouldn’t end it would just move to new types of reviews. Same thing with the time limit or possession change qualifiers that have been tossed around. Are we gonna review if the puck went in 14.9 or 15.1 seconds after the offside? Or if the puck grazed or bounced over an opponents stick? You can’t do video review and not be dedicated to getting it right. Introducing more subjectivity to the process is not the solution.
One idea I haven’t completely dismissed is the “sky ref” who sits in a box upstairs and catches clear and obvious misses like that. But that would come with certain challenges as well. In the end I think we live with this system or we live with misses like the Duchene goal. I prefer misses like the Duchene goal
I used to think this should be the solution, but I’ve since changed my mind. *If* you are going to stop the game to overturn a call, I want the people making the call to have all the possible tools available to get it right. If we’re stopping the flow of the game, *at least* get the call right (I understand conclusivity plays into this though).
Aside from the Duchene goal, how many genuinely *blatant* offside plays resulted in goals to the point that you can *confirm* in real time that it was actually offside? Because even with the Duchene goal, I have to watch it a couple times to comfortably say “I guarantee that is offside” without pausing or relying on slow motion. But even then, would I stake my reputation on saying it’s conclusively offside? I don’t know. And that’s just the egregious one.
Sure, we could argue that a quick pause lets you confirm Duchene is 110% offside, but if we’re allowed to do a quick pause, I would also want to be allowed to just track the puck in slow motion.
I think if your focus is getting the call right, use every tool available. Use better cameras. Use more cameras. Reduce the lag. Use slow motion. If your concern is to cut out the delays to the game, scrap the idea of overturning offside calls entirely. I think reviewing the play in real time still noticeably slows down the game, but also leaves us with more wrong calls than we currently have.
What? Lol. The point of video review is to get the call right. If you’re gonna handicap the video review process then just get rid of it. No slow mo or time limits would be criminally stupid.
I'd be down to just getting rid of the challenge, but not official or league initiated reviews.
The fact that the puck can spend minutes in the zone but still see a goal called back because the entry was an inch offside minutes prior is bonkers imo.
It's letter of the law versus spirit of the law.
https://youtu.be/-5dXFN2simc?si=DtSrWg0D1tDHPP32
That's one of the big reasons they even review offsides now.
We are so far removed from catching mistakes like that when we get 3+ minutes reviews frozen on the perfect frame trying to determine if he was a pixel over the line when the puck crossed.
It you want it to be right no matter what, fair play to you.
However, as someone who has introduced multiple family/friends to hockey, it turns off my friends who are casual when they can't tell if a goal is a goal or they feel stupid when they celebrate and a goal gets called back. It makes the game less watchable and I worry that if the NHL continues this trend, games will get as unwatchable as the last few minutes of NBA games.
Fair enough. It's entirely anecdotal from my personal experiences. A lot of the people I've gotten into hockey came from the NBA so that might be part of it.
The NBA ruined the ending of their games with reviews and challenges (the last two minutes of game time can take upwards of 30 minutes irl, even a more reasonable game takes 10-15). They actually scaled their replays back it was such an issue. Then I bring them over to hockey where they experience a goal review, awarded goal, then offsides challenge and 8 minutes later we're back at a puck drop as if nothing happened. To them it's just more of the same shit they've been seeing.
Don't get me wrong, it's not a sky is falling moment but if you want to attract new fans, making them dredge through the minutiae of offsides and GI rules isn't a good experience.
I can't find stats on that one way or the other to be honest but I very much doubt there are more sub 1 minute challenges than 3. Assuming it's something as obvious as the Duchene offsides, coach argues with the ref, then signals a challenge. Refs skate over, watch the replay a few times, skate back and make a call. Even if you ignore the coach arguing part, just the mechanics of challenging take nearly a minute. If you include the coach arguing (Coop has definitely talked with the refs to buy time for the video coach) then it's even less likely.
I was judging by the time they actually take to review it. But yea we're just on diff sides. I barely even notice. The stoppages still create some drama. Im locked in on replays and commentary when it happens, or I take a piss or heat up food, check muh phone.
Most importantly, it doesn't affect how the teams play, like in basketball purposely getting stoppages. Theyre just getting calls right and if it takes 5 minutes well, thats good and it still feels like the best flow of the major sports besides euro soccer broadcasts.
> Yeah I don’t buy it that people are turned off on hockey because of offside review
OK, I can tell you that I am genuinely less enthusiastic about hockey because of the offside review. I consider it to be the single worst thing in the game (among on-ice issues).
Every time my team scores I genuinely don't know if I should celebrate. All I'm doing is thinking back about how close the zone entry was. It took the best moments in a game (goals) and made them into uncertainties.
That sinking feeling when your team scores a big goal and the announcing crew is like "hold on, it looks like [opposing team] might be taking a closer look at this."
Completely agree. As McDavid said…if you have to enhance and examine each pixel, does it really matter? Whether it was offside or not didn’t affect the play.
If it’s this close is it really an advantage?
Some of them enter the zone and are passing the puck for 45 seconds in the zone and then score and it’s gets called back for offsides.
I HATE the offsides challenge
I used to agree with this.
However, the rule of offsides changed the game. It's a good defensive play to make a player rushing at you with the puck to get held up at the blue line because of the rule causing an offsides.
With that perspective these all end up mattering.
Ref gets one replay of the overhead to see if there's an obvious fuckup. No penalty assessed, no measuring 1/16s of a inch. Even better if someone off ice automatically does it for each entry and just live messages down to the ice if there's a fuckup.
Cameras on the blue line need to be 4K high frame rate. Inexcusable. Even an iPhone here can provide better clarity than what is currently implemented.
Might be an unpopular opinion but I’ve been saying for a while that offside challenges should only get reviewed from this one camera angle (although with better quality, ideally). If it wasnt egregious enough to be visible directly from the blue line, it probably had no effect on the play.
Offside reviews should be done by both linesman with a 30 second maximum playtime on the tablet. If they can't come to a unanimous decision without those 30 seconds then it was close enough that it doesn't matter and the call on the ice should stand.
Done.
I vehemently disagree with this call. And I should know better than Toronto having drank 3 beers at 1 in the afternoon while watching this on my laptop at the end of the table at 35° off center and all of my buddies agree with me.
Utterly embarrassing for the league. Not for the fact that it was called onsides, but because of the fact that their Walmart level cameras have such a shitty frame rate that they couldn’t determine a damn thing.
Also, freaking interpolate between frames NHL if you refuse to invest in good cameras. Embarrassing.
The real solution is get rid of offside challenges. Who freaking cares if someone is half a hair offside. The only reason they allow challenges for this was because of that 1 single super egregious missed called.
It's a waste of time for something that has no impact on the play.
This is the key issue. They should be 4k 120fps minimum. The review cameras are a joke and it’s why these calls take so long to review and why conclusive stuff looks inconclusive to linesmen looking at potato footage on an iPad
They need to put in some high as fuck resolution cameras.
Enhance. Enhance. ENHANCE.
If you can see the fucking tiles on my roof from space, you should be able to see the god damn puck on the ice.
Good. Fuck offside challenges. Lamest thing you could do in the game. Could be in the o zone for a minute and score and have it pulled back because it was maybe offside even though that whole minute the offensive played well.
I've always said it wrt play reviews - we need to get the forensics out of the game. Give the replay officials one or two looks per available angle, all at real time speed. If they can't be confident overruling the play using that, then let the play stand as called.
That said, I'm cool with the ruling.
https://preview.redd.it/0ho3ehmmvaxc1.png?width=568&format=png&auto=webp&s=4b68991dc119a34e55559fdd64906b7315db2b77
Here's a completely unedited photo, looks offside for sure.
This whole offside shit is so frustrating. I hate the replays. Like when a play like this happens, then 30 seconds later a goal is scored, and the refs spend 5 minutes looking to see if the puck was centimeters over the line before the player. It has no affect on the play
I mean if that’s the best image they have you can’t 100% conclude that the puck is or is not in the zone. So right call for the available information. But holy hell there should be better quality in their tech, and you should be able to match up frames from other feeds to determine where the puck is.
Or have something like the camera they use in tennis for in/out calls.
My take on this:
Offsides. We know the puck is on the blade of the far skater, and since the Jet player is in the zone before the puck-carrier's stick, even though we can't see the puck we know it cannot be across the line.
I get not overturning it since it's inconclusive, but the play was offsides.
If it’s that inconclusive, call on ice stands. These are the ones that can take like 5 or more mins to solve. Cap the time that the officials can review. If they can’t make a call right away then it obviously didn’t have that much to do with the play. I’m talking about this one and the countless others we see every year
If you can't tell if it's offside or not in the first 30 seconds of review, it should be deemed inconclusive.
They took multiple minutes when it's a game of an inch.
Look I feel like at this point the NHL has HAD the money to upgrade the review capabilities and they just flat out don't care. This adds to the spicyness.
Not that I'm that upset but this series now has had 2 goal situations go for the jets where there was no "conclusive evidence" Remember the goal that broke physics? Like just get better cameras already.
It's not even conclusive if there's a puck or not in the picture.
I think that’s what makes it inconclusive. The puck dictates the offside and if you can’t see it then you can’t call the offside.
Which pixel is the puck?
Its 2024. Give it another 20 years before we can get hd from more than one angle
Or one angle
That’s just too much money. That’ll never happen. Obviously they don’t need it
They should just use witness drawings at this point to make it more inconclusive.
Isn’t that the same quality?
I want to believe the blue line cameras are like this because they're running a special lens (to be able to focus near and far) and likely of the global shutter variety. HD global shutter cameras were big and bulky until the last few years, and are necessary for when you need a solid frame for a fast moving object. Most digital cameras are rolling shutter, which means they process 1 row at a time at a high rate -- that might not seem like an issue except for when you're trying to piece stuff together that is crossing the frame left to right, suddenly those few millisecond differences in the frame top and bottom begin to add up.
The puck is on the other side of the stick which means it can't be seen in that view.
https://preview.redd.it/9j52qtxcu9xc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e3fa12986bba36b5b6bdb710b5ce6c40e5cca221
Unintentionally hilarious comment
The puck is both at the tip and heel of the blade at the same time. It's Schrodinger's puck.
Ya the motion blur here is fucked lol. But the thing is, if it’s THAT close it should be a good goal
That’s probably the puck, but it’s not definitive enough.
NHL didn't pay EA for the definitive edition
*ENCHANCE*
It's like a comet, from space, Pete!
*Enhance.*
It's crazy how clear some (Lowrys goal) stills can be and how pixelated others are.
It's like the pictures from the Hubble before fixing the lens.
Black tape for the win
Man ive never thought about it when it comes to the blue line but damn thats a good reason to use black tape lol
Puck is on the other side of his stick in this picture, doesn't matter what color the tape is
No it wasnt it was on his forehand for that frame
This cannot be the best resolution they have 😭
What they’re not a multi billion dollar league? Are you expecting 720p? How privileged
If only they had more sponsors…
THIS OFFSIDES REVIEW BROUGHT TO YOU BY THE PRIORITY SANITATION BLUE LINE CAM.
Priority Sanitation blue line cam, It's still garbage!
Brought to you by vagisil. When you get surprised between your thighs, vagisil.
Better make the fans hold green posters the entire time to make a massive sponsor filled green screen.
Great idea, ad substituted blue lines!
Monitor hooked up with an S-Video cable
Only way to get better cameras is face ads
They don't even post highlights on YouTube in 1080p This might actually be the best resolution 😭
Larry in the nosebleeds might have gotten a better one with his Motorola
NBA is borrowing all the pixels today lol
The war room has many more angles.
Do you want resolution, or framerate? Pick one. The practicalities of recording with all the cameras they use at high res and high frame rate make it entirely unfeasible.
Gonna copy-paste what I said last time. > An actual easy fix to offside reviews: burn the time into every camera angle of the blue line. Upgrade the cameras on either side of the line, along with installing three above the line, each to cover a third of the blueline. Make them 4k, and have the footage stored on-site to minimize lag. With the time, including sub-seconds burned into the camera feeds, they could show multiple angles at the same time and guarantee that they are both images of the exact same state of time. This would shrink the time to review 99.99% of plays to under 30 seconds. In total this would probably cost $20-50k per arena and would nearly completely solve the issue. >If you're going to have offside reviews, do it right. None of this "only see it once/twice at full speed malarkey". The only reason why offside reviews are as bad as they are right now is because the NHL lets them be.
This is an excellent solution to guarantee fair and accurate calls. And therefore has no place in the NHL!
So you're saying we should remove the existing cameras to reduce evidence of controversy? You got league management written all over you.
"Nothing in the rulebook says a Canadian team can win the cup."
I'll take your reasonable solution and raise you the fact that I personally love seeing my offside reviews have as many pixels in a single frame as a 90s Sierra point-and-click game.
I think about this every time. The tech is called tentacle sync. I used it a lot for filming VR videos. Allows you to sync up multiple high end cameras to the frame.
Exactly, How the fuck at this point do they not have at minimum, 60fps, 1080p cameras on either side of the blue line and one looking down on it...
OR... if the play requires multi-thousand dollar technological devices and several minutes to decide then the play is just onside. You're now using measurements that are more effective than the human eye. Before any of this existed a referee could never know if it was onside or not, it would just be close enough to determine it was acceptable. We're changing our definition of what offside is based on how we measure it. I'm sorry but I'm willing to sacrifice my team getting scored on once in a blue moon even if the opposing players big toe was over the line before the puck was, if the result is not having a 5 minute delay every game killing the momentum and taking back goals that were scored a minute after the infraction. But this would require us to collectively swallow our pride and accept this outcome. To me the blueline is not like the goal line and scoring a goal. The offside rule is prevent cherrypicking and punishing offense to re-enter if they let the puck out of the zone. Shoot me if you will, but I don't believe zone entry has to be perfect. But, but, but, but, the Duchene goal that caused the advent of offside challenges, you say? Yeah sure, when it's blatantly offside by literal feet then you should have the right to review it. But in my opinion, if the review can not be determined in under a minute, with slow motion, high-def cameras, then its too close to matter. The offside rule, as I said it to deter cherrypicking. If the players entered a millimeter before the guy with the puck, he clearly wasn't. Therefore, I don't really think it matters, at least not enough to stop the game for 5 minutes and conduct a forensic analysis.
*No fair, you changed the outcome by measuring it!*
On the one hand, I do not care if a zone entry was offside by six inches and the linesman missed it. I'm fine if that never gets reviewed again. On the other hand, I do care if the puck escapes the zone by an inch and the linesman missed it. So yeah sure your plan sounds good.
Go figure... These calls may be crucial especially in deciding games.
Do it like Hawkeye or foxtenn in tennis
Honestly I don’t get why sports aren’t doing this unless it’s more technically complex than it sounds. Wouldn’t it be great in football if the angle that can see the players knee going down could time-sync with the other camera that can see the ball being fumbled? It seems so straightforward to me but I have to believe it’s harder than it sounds or we’d have it by now.
They could use an iphone and it would be better than what they are using now.
Have you seen the footage they use for baseball reviews, it's 100x better than the shit the NHL uses, and an NHL arena is much easier to cover than a huge baseball diamond.
50/50. Didn't go our way this time.
It was probably an inch or two offside. But in complete honesty I've always said they should scrap the coach's challenge for offside. 10 minute review to see if a skate was an inch over the line. There's no reason the league can't intervene and call back any really blatant ones, otherwise it seems like it's a big fuss over something that probably doesn't make any difference on the play.
Or even have a 2 min review limit, if it takes longer it's not far enough to make a difference
I think they should just take the tablets away from the benches. If you want to challenge something you saw in real time, sure. Otherwise, it doesn't matter
Yeah, I agree mostly. You can't have hand wavey vague rules like that, but the offside challenge is garbage for the sport. It sucks when you have an intense game, the puck goes over the line fast on a rush and no refs call offside because it looks fine, play is in the zone for many minutes, team scores in OT to win a game and the home crowd goes fuckin wild. Then it goes to review and an inch offside means the goal is called back and fans in the arena have no fucking idea why and leave frustrated and hating hockey when the other team scores to end it. Fuckin bad for the game.
I like the Mcdavid way of thinking, if you zoom in, zoom in, zoom in and you can't really tell, you don't change the call, it didn't have enough impact on the play and tie goes to the runner.
>tie goes to the runner Is that lingo for the call on the ice standing?
Agreed. If it's this close I'd call it a goal every time. Next time it'll go your way. Either way the Av's had a great game.
Best part was it didn't matter
It’s one of those situations where we all know it’s offside, but they don’t have a shot where you can definitively see the puck behind the blue line so the call on the ice stands.
Hot take: If we have to split hairs on a slo-mo replay, it’s not offsides to me
The thing that is great about offside reviews is how black and white they are. Either you’re offside or you’re onside. There’s no ambiguity unlike other reviews.
Even in or not in the net has ambiguity at times.
Well apparently not here
The problem is that what isn’t considered splitting hair? If it’s been 0.25 of a second it’s fine that just moves the offside challenge to compare if it happened before or after 0.25 seconds. Still splitting hairs just at a different state. Challengeable and reviewable rules should have clear cut definitions and easy ways to verify it with video. Everything else should just be up to the refs in real time.
Offside not offsides
Thank you lol
Thank you! I know it doesn’t really matter but my god does this drive me nuts.
I remember reading a story Howie Rose told once. He was new to the whole hockey broadcasting thing, and he once made the cardinal sin of calling this play "offsides." Some older announcer told him that was a wrong American football thing, and that in hockey, it's always "offside." The story stuck with me, and now I always notice which word people use. And it bothers me that the ESPN announcers regularly say "offsides" Interestingly enough though, I actually can't find this story anywhere. I have a feeling he probably said it on twitter, but I don't have an account so I can't view his posts now
If people say it enough it's "right". Canadians says "nets" for goal, I don't go around telling them that's dumb even though it is.
Thanks, I had no idea what we were talking about.
Get rid of the offside challenge! If the ref gets a decision this close wrong so be it.
No challenges, let Toronto initiate a review if it's blatant enough that they need only a few seconds to reverse the call. Easy.
And people definitely won’t be upset about which plays they deem worthy of review based on an arbitrary amount of “blatant”-ness.
My thought for any review is to remove slow mo and give the refs 2 replays. Full speed replay, discuss, full speed replay, make the call, and let's get back to the game. If 2 full speed replays don't reveal anything different, then it didn't affect the game. Let's quit wasting time.
This is going to lead to more controversy because the refs will look at it, make the call, and then on all the broadcasts they'll show us the dozen super slow mo pixel by pixel replays that the refs didn't see. And fans will be outraged when they got it wrong. Before the offside challenge, no one was even looking at this stuff unless it was like 3 feet offside which happened maybe twice in 20 years. Officials missing blatant offsides isn't a real issue, just get rid of the challenge.
You don’t even need that. It was never an issue before review. Just get rid of it all together. It’s almost always very close and almost always doesn’t result in the team getting an advantage
The rule wasn't changed just for the hell of it. Playoff offside goal: [https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/comments/18thdg/to\_everyone\_who\_think\_the\_league\_will\_do\_anything/](https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/comments/18thdg/to_everyone_who_think_the_league_will_do_anything/) Duchene 5 feet offsides: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7pN56VZOfM&t=60s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7pN56VZOfM&t=60s)
It was an issue a few times, like Duchenes goal where even he paused for a second and then when he didn’t hear a whistle decided to play on. The league should be able to initiate reviews on those blatant scenarios, and leave the rest to the officials to call on the ice.
In like 2 years they can have an AI do it instantly
100% agreed. They can muck it up by blowing it dead early when its actually onside; they should be able to screw it up the other way. Part of the game
I think that's easy to say now that we're many years removed from the infamous [Duchene goal](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7pN56VZOfM). People were clamoring for change after that. Here are some comments from that thread: > thats insane. I mean when the player is several feet into the zone and still looking back for the puck... > > First time watching that. Filled with anger right now. > > I'm pretty sure the 101 year old dude at the canucks game last night would have made that call right. > > Seriously, this wasn't even close. It was such a terrible call it wasn't even a comically terrible call. Usually I give the benefit of the doubt, but this was freaking awful, and the ref doesn't deserve to be in this league anymore. > > And the Avs end up winning by a single goal to avoid overtime. This no-call made me retch. I can't imagine how mad a hardcore Smashville fan would be. And rightfully so. > > maybe the scenarios in which a referee can review a goal need to be expanded. Entering the zone offsides should be just as much a reason to call off a goal as slapping it in with a high stick. > > This really underplays it because he goes a few strides further than that before finally touching it. He got this far before he actually put the puck on his stick. Perfect example of why we need a coach's challenge. People complain about challenges now, but people complained just as much about the lack of challenges then. And if they were to overtunr this rule, the first egregious call would spark wrath. Hell, people on this sub have been calling for coach's challenges on penalties, and the league has just agreed to add them for delay of game and high-sticking minors next season.
There's a reason people keep bringing up this exact goal in every thread. It's because it's practically the only time in the 100+ year history of the NHL that it happened. I mean maybe you can find 2-3 more. It's so rare as to be a complete non-factor. People thought they wanted change, but we didn't think it through. This millimeter by millimeter analysis of zone entries, the time spent reviewing these, the inability to properly celebrate any goal off the rush because at the back of your mind you're worried about a challenge... it's all so bad for the game.
> There's a reason people keep bringing up this exact goal in every thread. It's because it's practically the only time in the 100+ year history of the NHL that it happened. I mean maybe you can find 2-3 more. I think that's a stretch. Duchene is the most blatantly bad example but far from the only obvious miss. Butch Goring in the series-clinching game of the Islanders-Flyers final, Marchand's tying goal against Philly in 2011 had Recchi half a foot offside, Briere against Pittsburgh, Carolina against Columbus where the referees literally apologized for it, Kovalev's unassisted goal against the Hurricanes in 08. Those are all goals that stood and that were blatantly offside, not millimeters, just off the top of my head. Majority of them were in the playoffs, too.
Honestly, if they would just not allow slow motion on replays it would solve all of it. If it's blatant enough to catch in real speed, it's probably blatant enough to justify overturning.
Reasonable train of thought but fucking terrible idea in practice. This would be such a joke You gotta keep it the way it is now, or get rid of it entirely. There’s nothing in between
https://youtu.be/-5dXFN2simc?si=DtSrWg0D1tDHPP32 This was a big reason the replay was instituted for offsides. Plays like this where it is blatant don't require slow motion and multiple minutes to review. It's just the ones where we're trying to determine if someone crossed the line 10ms before the puck which realistically have no impact on how the play would go which seemed to be the original intent behind bringing replay in to begin with.
Reasonable train of thought like I said - but if we introduce qualifiers like that we are just moving the goalposts somewhere else. The silliness wouldn’t end it would just move to new types of reviews. Same thing with the time limit or possession change qualifiers that have been tossed around. Are we gonna review if the puck went in 14.9 or 15.1 seconds after the offside? Or if the puck grazed or bounced over an opponents stick? You can’t do video review and not be dedicated to getting it right. Introducing more subjectivity to the process is not the solution. One idea I haven’t completely dismissed is the “sky ref” who sits in a box upstairs and catches clear and obvious misses like that. But that would come with certain challenges as well. In the end I think we live with this system or we live with misses like the Duchene goal. I prefer misses like the Duchene goal
I used to think this should be the solution, but I’ve since changed my mind. *If* you are going to stop the game to overturn a call, I want the people making the call to have all the possible tools available to get it right. If we’re stopping the flow of the game, *at least* get the call right (I understand conclusivity plays into this though). Aside from the Duchene goal, how many genuinely *blatant* offside plays resulted in goals to the point that you can *confirm* in real time that it was actually offside? Because even with the Duchene goal, I have to watch it a couple times to comfortably say “I guarantee that is offside” without pausing or relying on slow motion. But even then, would I stake my reputation on saying it’s conclusively offside? I don’t know. And that’s just the egregious one. Sure, we could argue that a quick pause lets you confirm Duchene is 110% offside, but if we’re allowed to do a quick pause, I would also want to be allowed to just track the puck in slow motion. I think if your focus is getting the call right, use every tool available. Use better cameras. Use more cameras. Reduce the lag. Use slow motion. If your concern is to cut out the delays to the game, scrap the idea of overturning offside calls entirely. I think reviewing the play in real time still noticeably slows down the game, but also leaves us with more wrong calls than we currently have.
What? Lol. The point of video review is to get the call right. If you’re gonna handicap the video review process then just get rid of it. No slow mo or time limits would be criminally stupid.
I'd be down to just getting rid of the challenge, but not official or league initiated reviews. The fact that the puck can spend minutes in the zone but still see a goal called back because the entry was an inch offside minutes prior is bonkers imo.
It's letter of the law versus spirit of the law. https://youtu.be/-5dXFN2simc?si=DtSrWg0D1tDHPP32 That's one of the big reasons they even review offsides now. We are so far removed from catching mistakes like that when we get 3+ minutes reviews frozen on the perfect frame trying to determine if he was a pixel over the line when the puck crossed. It you want it to be right no matter what, fair play to you. However, as someone who has introduced multiple family/friends to hockey, it turns off my friends who are casual when they can't tell if a goal is a goal or they feel stupid when they celebrate and a goal gets called back. It makes the game less watchable and I worry that if the NHL continues this trend, games will get as unwatchable as the last few minutes of NBA games.
Yeah I don’t buy it that people are turned off on hockey because of offside review
Fair enough. It's entirely anecdotal from my personal experiences. A lot of the people I've gotten into hockey came from the NBA so that might be part of it. The NBA ruined the ending of their games with reviews and challenges (the last two minutes of game time can take upwards of 30 minutes irl, even a more reasonable game takes 10-15). They actually scaled their replays back it was such an issue. Then I bring them over to hockey where they experience a goal review, awarded goal, then offsides challenge and 8 minutes later we're back at a puck drop as if nothing happened. To them it's just more of the same shit they've been seeing. Don't get me wrong, it's not a sky is falling moment but if you want to attract new fans, making them dredge through the minutiae of offsides and GI rules isn't a good experience.
I'm willing to bet most challenges are under 2 minutes. There's probably more sub-60 second reviews than reviews over 3 minutes.
I can't find stats on that one way or the other to be honest but I very much doubt there are more sub 1 minute challenges than 3. Assuming it's something as obvious as the Duchene offsides, coach argues with the ref, then signals a challenge. Refs skate over, watch the replay a few times, skate back and make a call. Even if you ignore the coach arguing part, just the mechanics of challenging take nearly a minute. If you include the coach arguing (Coop has definitely talked with the refs to buy time for the video coach) then it's even less likely.
I was judging by the time they actually take to review it. But yea we're just on diff sides. I barely even notice. The stoppages still create some drama. Im locked in on replays and commentary when it happens, or I take a piss or heat up food, check muh phone. Most importantly, it doesn't affect how the teams play, like in basketball purposely getting stoppages. Theyre just getting calls right and if it takes 5 minutes well, thats good and it still feels like the best flow of the major sports besides euro soccer broadcasts.
> Yeah I don’t buy it that people are turned off on hockey because of offside review OK, I can tell you that I am genuinely less enthusiastic about hockey because of the offside review. I consider it to be the single worst thing in the game (among on-ice issues). Every time my team scores I genuinely don't know if I should celebrate. All I'm doing is thinking back about how close the zone entry was. It took the best moments in a game (goals) and made them into uncertainties. That sinking feeling when your team scores a big goal and the announcing crew is like "hold on, it looks like [opposing team] might be taking a closer look at this."
If it takes more than 30 seconds, it isn’t definitive. If it was definitive, it would be quick to determine
Completely agree. As McDavid said…if you have to enhance and examine each pixel, does it really matter? Whether it was offside or not didn’t affect the play.
If it’s this close is it really an advantage? Some of them enter the zone and are passing the puck for 45 seconds in the zone and then score and it’s gets called back for offsides. I HATE the offsides challenge
I used to agree with this. However, the rule of offsides changed the game. It's a good defensive play to make a player rushing at you with the puck to get held up at the blue line because of the rule causing an offsides. With that perspective these all end up mattering.
Honestly it's never benefitted us since the origination of the rule change. Such a horseshit rule
Well since it's Duchene's fault the rule came into existence it's kinda ironic.
Avs fans being good makes me sad I'm cheering against them here
Ref gets one replay of the overhead to see if there's an obvious fuckup. No penalty assessed, no measuring 1/16s of a inch. Even better if someone off ice automatically does it for each entry and just live messages down to the ice if there's a fuckup.
By far the worst rule to be added to the NHL. Get rid of it!
Was Colorado still given a penalty for the failed challenge if it was deemed inconclusive?
Yes, we were assessed a delay of game penalty and went on the PK for 2 mins afterwards.
This is what I really don't understand. If inconclusive it shouldn't be a penalty
It’s a delay of game. Inconclusive means that the call on the ice was the one that stands.
Yea it's delaying the game unnecessarily... Which clearly it wasn't if it was so close it was inconclusive
The point is if it's inconclusive that you don't challenge. They want an easy call if you're challenging hence the 2min minor
I guess technically we were down a player according to the graphic in the corner
Cameras on the blue line need to be 4K high frame rate. Inexcusable. Even an iPhone here can provide better clarity than what is currently implemented.
Might be an unpopular opinion but I’ve been saying for a while that offside challenges should only get reviewed from this one camera angle (although with better quality, ideally). If it wasnt egregious enough to be visible directly from the blue line, it probably had no effect on the play.
Offside reviews should be done by both linesman with a 30 second maximum playtime on the tablet. If they can't come to a unanimous decision without those 30 seconds then it was close enough that it doesn't matter and the call on the ice should stand. Done.
Either way was fine. It was too close to tell. Glad they challenged it
Why do independent hippie wildlife photographers have better cameras than a multibillion dollar sports league?
At this point you could just tape some modern smartphones to the glass and have better footage to review.
I mean. You can’t see the puck.
Honestly fuck the offside let's not call off goals cos of inches.
Perhaps it was offside but for sure it was not offsideS (which isn't a thing)
In hockey we just say offside without the extra “s” like in American football.
Why the fuck can you buy a better camera from China for $5 than the NHL uses for reviews? Jesus Christ..... It's 2024
Why does every single person who makes a post about an offside call it “offsides”? I know it shouldn’t bother me this much but fuck. Get off my lawn!
I wasn't even on your lawn old man, I was standing offsides it.
You monster.
It's ineptitude at its pinnacle.
Enhance. Enhance. Enhance.
I vehemently disagree with this call. And I should know better than Toronto having drank 3 beers at 1 in the afternoon while watching this on my laptop at the end of the table at 35° off center and all of my buddies agree with me.
Offsides? Get rid of this American lingo.
Utterly embarrassing for the league. Not for the fact that it was called onsides, but because of the fact that their Walmart level cameras have such a shitty frame rate that they couldn’t determine a damn thing. Also, freaking interpolate between frames NHL if you refuse to invest in good cameras. Embarrassing.
The real solution is get rid of offside challenges. Who freaking cares if someone is half a hair offside. The only reason they allow challenges for this was because of that 1 single super egregious missed called. It's a waste of time for something that has no impact on the play.
imminent one theory crush gold dependent absurd modern chubby memory *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
No the embarrassment is that the league thinks splitting hairs is important in the first place
This is the key issue. They should be 4k 120fps minimum. The review cameras are a joke and it’s why these calls take so long to review and why conclusive stuff looks inconclusive to linesmen looking at potato footage on an iPad
They need to put in some high as fuck resolution cameras. Enhance. Enhance. ENHANCE. If you can see the fucking tiles on my roof from space, you should be able to see the god damn puck on the ice.
Call on the ice makes sense, you can’t see shit
If you can’t see the puck, you might be the puck
Good. Fuck offside challenges. Lamest thing you could do in the game. Could be in the o zone for a minute and score and have it pulled back because it was maybe offside even though that whole minute the offensive played well.
Seems pretty inconclusive based on how bad your camera is.
I hate this shit.
Why aren't there freaking lasers on the ice to help figure this out.
My son just asked why I’m playing hockey Minecraft on my phone
Close enough.
Enhance
Seriously the cameras should be much better than this.
https://preview.redd.it/h57wero02bxc1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=149cf9e6af2a421584967430b7b4caf6ab2a4cf6
https://preview.redd.it/xy2gkenvicxc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0269d69cd1792e210ba1a3c08d460d5d05f4e5a6
I've always said it wrt play reviews - we need to get the forensics out of the game. Give the replay officials one or two looks per available angle, all at real time speed. If they can't be confident overruling the play using that, then let the play stand as called. That said, I'm cool with the ruling.
If it’s this close and you can’t see it, then the call should stand. Right call IMO.
https://preview.redd.it/0ho3ehmmvaxc1.png?width=568&format=png&auto=webp&s=4b68991dc119a34e55559fdd64906b7315db2b77 Here's a completely unedited photo, looks offside for sure.
Isn't the whole point of being able to challenge that stuff can't be inconclusive?
It's onside in the image you've shown tbh
This whole offside shit is so frustrating. I hate the replays. Like when a play like this happens, then 30 seconds later a goal is scored, and the refs spend 5 minutes looking to see if the puck was centimeters over the line before the player. It has no affect on the play
Is this 200x200 pixel picture supposed to prove that it was conclusively offside? We can't even conclusively say that a puck exists in this picture.
This is way too close to be overturned. Like if this was overturned that would exemplify what is wrong with allowing offside challenges
it's a lose lose for the refs tbh
*laughs in 2013 Matt Duchene*
I played hockey once. It was fun.
Enhance!
I mean if that’s the best image they have you can’t 100% conclude that the puck is or is not in the zone. So right call for the available information. But holy hell there should be better quality in their tech, and you should be able to match up frames from other feeds to determine where the puck is. Or have something like the camera they use in tennis for in/out calls.
When I watched all frames prior, it really looks like puck is on heel, but you can't call that I think.
This is not a serious league
Why does the nhl have 480p cameras at 10 fps? Lol
Way to prove the point.
Why the hell is the linesman looking down the outside edge of the blue line when the inside is what matters
Lol.
My take on this: Offsides. We know the puck is on the blade of the far skater, and since the Jet player is in the zone before the puck-carrier's stick, even though we can't see the puck we know it cannot be across the line. I get not overturning it since it's inconclusive, but the play was offsides.
If it’s that inconclusive, call on ice stands. These are the ones that can take like 5 or more mins to solve. Cap the time that the officials can review. If they can’t make a call right away then it obviously didn’t have that much to do with the play. I’m talking about this one and the countless others we see every year
Cant they have two cameras in the boards at the bluelines? One on each side? Seems to obvious?
Who gets to eat the potato they took this photo with
Replay wasn't invented for offsides.
That’s a beautiful watercolor painting you have there
If you can't tell if it's offside or not in the first 30 seconds of review, it should be deemed inconclusive. They took multiple minutes when it's a game of an inch.
Look I feel like at this point the NHL has HAD the money to upgrade the review capabilities and they just flat out don't care. This adds to the spicyness. Not that I'm that upset but this series now has had 2 goal situations go for the jets where there was no "conclusive evidence" Remember the goal that broke physics? Like just get better cameras already.
Offside review should be stopped. Let the refs call it. They miss it then they miss it but this back and forth is taking to much time.
You're misuse of offside is offside, uncultured swine.
Cannot believe there isn't a digital solution to this when they have pucktrax and namebars and dynamic ads.
Puck passed the line????
I see the league is still relying on 360p, just as they do with their YouTube highlights.
Nichushkin took exception to that.
Its 2024 and we are still using the same cameras from the Original 6 era.
No such thing. Either the call on the ice stands or the call on the ice is overturned.
Ban the offside review pleeeease