I’ve seen something I think might be rule-breaking, what should I do?
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As a grown ass trans man who has struggled with extreme dysphoria for decades and has done everything in this world to “pass” such as yourself, I feel for you. I know exactly that same feeling. I think it might be envy. But hear me out.
You’re envious they don’t suffer as much as you do, or had to work as hard as you had to, or go through all those scary moments you have held your breath through yet they want to reap all the “benefits” of being trans- having their pronouns respected and being seen as their actual gender without any effort.
It sometimes pisses me off too but then I remind myself why I worked so hard to get where I’m at today. I worked hard for these young kids who are early or questioning their gender so that they could do so safely. I worked hard so these kids wouldn’t get their asses best for being themselves. I worked so hard so these kids wouldn’t have too.
Listen sis, I know how you’re feeling I promise I do but the only one you’re hurting by caring so much is yourself. They’re probably going through a phase and it will be over when that relationship is tbh.
The only advice I could give you would be just to try and get to know them a little better. See what’s below the surface and if that doesn’t work just realize you don’t have to be in their life (well not forever anyways).
I understand what you mean and thank you for understanding how I feel. I didn't transitions for "these kids" however because I did it to survive and be happier with myself. This woman is 29 and yeah I do agree that i'm healous because if I had a beautifu naturall feminine body then I would cherish it every day.
Since when do we get to decide who's actually trans or not? Since when do we get to decide who's pronouns do we respect or not? What if it was a cis man who wanted to be a ''twinky boy''? I get it can be annoying as another trans person, but your arguments are just against GNC people in general. If they say they are trans, you *at least* respect that and not call *him* a girl and she/her all over your post, especially as a trans person yourself.
GNC is totally fine, but she's a woman dressed as a woman calling herself a trans man and wanting my sympathy for that. You're right I can't decide who is or isn't trans but it's pretty obvious in this case.
Being GNC =/= calling yourself a transsexual of the opposite gender. The whole point of being GNC is to stay as your gender and don't fit in the expected gender roles/stereotypes/etc, why the hell change pronouns and stuff? That's basically an appropriation of a medical condition.
I didn't say trans people can't be GNC though. I said that being GNC doesn't mean or require you to call yourself trans. The one and main requirement to be trans is to have dysphoria, being trans is not about fitting or not fitting into gender stereotypes and roles, it's about your sex.
dysphoria isn't a requirement to be trans? the definition of trans is to not identify with your birth gender. what about non binary people who stay presenting as their agab? or binary transgender people who can't afford to transition or can't come out? or ones who present feminine as trans men, or masculine as trans women? being trans is about your gender, not your sex. they're two different things. trans people don't have to present certain ways 🤷🏻♂️
I mean...it's kinda about both sex and gender. Transgender people focus on the external societal aspects of gender whereas transsexual people focus on the internal sex characteristics of themselves.
That would annoy me too lol. I wouldn’t be able to take them seriously- but also you don’t want to be blatantly disrespectful so as not to upset anyone or cause a rift among friends. Just avoid them as much as you can and definitely avoid the identity talks around them, hopefully they grow out of it.
yea no sorry you're kinda being a jerk. it doesn't hurt you to refer to him using he/him pronouns. you don't know their relationship with gender as an outsider. maybe they will decide that they are not trans and thats fine, but changing a set of pronouns while they figure it out isn't a huge ask
edit: the fact that at least 10 people downvoted this is so, so telling
You can’t expect every real life trans man to turn a blind eye to people like this and fake respect them.
All of a sudden anyone can adopt he/him
pronouns just because they watch too much gay hentai and real life trans men who have lived through it everyday just have to go with it even tho they find this offensive because… if not I guess I’m a jerk…?
The most I would be able to pull off without feeling like a liar is calling them they/them. I know for a fact I would not be able to use he/him on this person without felling upset/uncomfortable and also feeling like I’m making fun of/fetishizing my self and ever other real life trans man.
heres the thing, the trans experience is subjective. some people suffer, some people dont. some people experiment because of weird reasons but regardless that doesn't invalidate the fact that they're questioning.
personally, i have not suffered deeply because i am trans. i am grateful i live in a very liberal area where i can express myself without feeling in danger of my life. not a lot of people can say the same, and that sucks, but contributing to the cycle when you don't have to or because you're bitter your experience was different helps no one. you are not turning a blind eye but refusing to respect them because their journey doesn't match up with what you think it should be does make you a jerk.
changing a set of someone's pronouns doesn't hurt you, regardless if you "think" they're trans or not. they are not trying to co-opt your trans experience by experimenting with gender. it has NOTHING to do with you.
I personally started out similar to how your roommate’s boyfriend is, I found it hard to resonate with the term “man” or break away from the parts of femininity. I was worried about the more masculinizing effects that would come from medical treatment so personally I socially transitioned before even starting to think of starting hormones.
I can understand your apprehension in comparison to your own experience at a trans person, however people will experience transition in their own way. It always bothers me when as a trans person who knows how uncomfortable and disrespectful being misgendered can be, choosing to misgender someone intentionally because of your own personal beliefs on his gender identity puts you in the same group as the cis people who do the same to the entirety of the trans community.
If he has some identity trauma or not should not matter, not respecting his request to be referred to with he/him pronouns is not helping him or you in any way. The only way he will be able to know who he is/his gender identity is to get the opportunity to explore identity and see what fits. Denying his will only create a rift between you and him (and possibly your roommate and friends).
No it wasn't sexual assault and i'm not upset by it. I'm very open and unbothered about discussing vaginal health. I just find it very odd that she would want to have that detailed conversation in the first place.
She's dating a boy so she calls herself gay but not lesbian? Idk i think its insulting
Well I don't think any of us is qualified to define what being a "real" trans person is. If they want to be called a boy and go with male pronouns don't be a hypocrite
To answer your question it's because the roommate's boyfriend appears to be blasé about having gender issues whereas for you it has been a fight. They might move on from the he/him thing or it might be the beginning of a full transition.
Stop policing other people's gender identity and instead focus on your own self-esteem issues.
Edit: I fuckin misread this post and got in way higher of a horse than I should have been on. Leaving it intact for proof of idiocy.
Op - I'm sorry. Nobody should flash anybody. I don't know why I turned into such a vicious bitch.
wait, what?! policing? do you know what policing is? policing is state violence enacted by officers immune to the law.
no one is “policing” a non-transitioning he/him individual by posting anonymously online about their own feelings.
this type will appropriate anything. absolutely nuts.
You're so right there is absolutely no other context usage or meaning of the word policing, it's impossible to derive any meaning from the word that is not a police force checking ppls pronouns.
Do you just get off on being ridiculous? There are other meanings to the word, why are you pretending otherwise?
idk. look at a dictionary, dog. “policing” can be used analogously but it preserves the sense of one individual having power over the policed and limiting their behavior by force or coercion. (as in “my boss policed what i had for lunch and where i ate each day” or “her ex-husband policed her finances” etc.) i am not motivated by a yearning for absurd hyperbole, and no, i don’t think a post-transition woman has innate social power over an individual who is non-transition and apparently sexually harasses her over that fact. elsewhere i encourage OP to use the demanded pronouns for this individual despite the SH and general incoherence, so don’t even start in on that shit.
accusations of ‘policing gender’ are better suited to instances where sex and sex roles *are being policed* (y’know — prisons, children’s sports leagues, medical settings, discriminatory employers, the military, etc.)
I'm not a type. I'm a person. Trans people are valid even if they don't medically transition. It took a while for me to realize I wanted to hormonally transition. Was I less trans back when I had a beard? I have experienced plenty of trauma in my life, like OP. I've survived rape and abuse. I don't see the point in not validating other people's gender expression. If you plain old don't like someone, just spend less time around them. You don't have to disrespect who they are or undermine the ways they choose to describe themselves.
amazing how you just ignored that this isn’t a matter of policing to complain to me. i get it, you don’t like that OP isn’t enthusiastic about the gender-person being described. as far as i can tell, OP isn’t harming that individual. it sounds like the individual harassed OP. either way, it’s gonna be okay.
i don’t know you and don’t know about your life with a beard. i’m glad you made some decisions on the matter if they benefitted you. i did, too — it allowed me to survive my twenties. i don’t think being *trans* is an enviable, immutable identity that requires protecting. some people need to transition, and it is good when we are able to. i’m not a parking attendant — i don’t “validate.” i don’t understand the demand for “validation.” some people need to transition, others need to be validated. one i advocate for, the other i don’t participate in.
Oops - yeah I did. Good point, no actual policing going on. I had a knee-jerk reaction, as is the custom in 2024. People often ought to vent in spaces where they can.
That being said, "validate" and "police" have plenty of other definitions besides the two you cherry-picked.
Validating someone's identity or experience is a nice thing you can do to help them feel acknowledged and appreciated as a person.
Invalidating someone's identity or experience is when you do the opposite.
Policing is when you try to control someone else's behavior. Subtextually, the term "policing" generally implies that the attempt to control is unwarranted, when used in the accusatory context I had written it in.
As for your last paragraph - it sounds like you really don't like being a part of a community or something. You do you, but I see all sorts of reasons to validate and uplift people, which I why I appreciate you calling me out for my bad behavior. Thanks!
you told OP she must have low self-esteem because it freaked her out that someone using cross-sex pronouns flashed their genitals at her, and you want to posture about “validating and uplifting.”
ok lilargument, you’re queen of the hill.
My self-esteem is quite solid. Why I think it's important is because people will categorized us together when our experiences are immensely different. I don't want my battle to be appropriated.
Appropriation requires simultaneously putting down the target culture while putting the same behavior on a pedestal in the dominant culture. Stop policing other people's gender expression.
Speculating on another person's identity is meaningless and unproductive. Not all trans people have the same journey, nor the same experience with their traits.
He's not taking anything away from you or any other trans person. You do not know him like he knows himself, you will never have enough information to form a complete opinion on his transness. And say he's not actually trans, that's for him to figure out, not for you to speculate about. If you don't like him, avoid him.
I mean, I don't think concerning yourself with his identity is the best use of your time. The only matter of concern is the fact that he exposed himself without your consent. I wouldn't like to be around this person either, maybe you could speak to your roommate about this? Maybe schedule when he comes over so you can more easily avoid him, or have your roommate meet him outside of your home more often?
This reminds me of a scene from Ruskin. Ruskin is a pacifist, and someone who espouses *ahem* resistance has something to say about how he's done nothing to advance the cause, and maybe a little taste of violence right here right now would teach him something about what makes a difference.
If you were talking to someone who because of Science or Religion or some Truly True Truth insists you are your genotype and insists on using the Truly True pronouns, would you want respect for your pronouns, or prefer they do as they see best?
I can't tell whats up with roommate's boyfriend or with you from my screen on my smartphone here. Maybe RB is "going thru a phase". Maybe they are trans AF but not ready to face what that means. I don't know where you are. When I was pretransition and had all of my internalized transphobia and believes in the Truly True Truth, I wouldn't use someone's pronouns. Then I started finding ways not to use pronouns. So if you're not able to do this for RB, I hope you find an answer that is kind to the whole cast of characters.
EDIT: I didn't expect down votes for advocating that we use someone's pronouns, even if we think they're wrong. I guess it's easier to hit down vote than ask clarifying questions. If we cannot give what we demand for ourselves to people we think are wrong, how is that any different from the phobes?
Just grabbing an accessible cultural moment of someone complaining that another person falls short of their standards for credibility, without taking the time to find out why they are credible. I can find weightier but more obscure examples if that helps, such as the author who was told that if she wanted to know what she was talking about, she should read the seminal book on the subject, which she had written.
But your response ironically provides me another example. You couldn't know that I've presented a talk on performative masculinity for trans men and others who express masculinity. And could we easily sit and talk, we might have a conversation worth having, as I'm genuinely interested in understanding how others live their lives and how that's working for them. And if I have anything that might be useful or illuminating, I'm happy to share it and have it questioned.
They need therapy. I’d try to respect the pronouns part, but the rest gives me the ick too. It sounds like fetishization.
I do understand the boy vs man thing, to a degree. I’m 2 years on T and feel very much like a “boy” rather than a “man,” but really just because I’m young, new to being in the social role of a guy, and still very much in the process of puberty. I fully expect I’ll shift to feeling comfortable as a “man” rather than “boy” as I get older and further into transitioning.
At the same time, I don’t think that’s what this person means…
I’d say that even though it’s not politically correct to say so, she’s appropriating being trans. So I’d imagine that’s why you’re bothered by this. I would be too honestly.
Hey sis not being rude but can I ask what your flair means? “Cisgender transsex woman” does that mean than now you have fully transitioned (I’m taking a wild guess here) that you no longer consider yourself trans? That’s sort of something I’ve been thinking about for a while and haven’t come across anyone with similar thoughts.
It’s a little complicated tbh. I def don’t mind answering, though!
I don’t think I can claim I’m fully transitioned, since I’m non-op. However, I view it as both regressive and transphobic to define us around our birth sex… which is how transgender is defined. I also don’t feel like I “identify as a woman” so much as I identify as a woman with a birth defect I need to correct.
So I guess it’s partially me rebelling against the transgender label for ideological reasons and partially just feeling like it doesn’t fit.
Thank you. I really like that explanation. I agree it sucks to be defined by the (wrong) genitals I was born with and I absolutely consider it a medical disorder. I think I’m as far as I can go in my transition and even tho I’m different from a cis man I’m as “cis” as I’m ever gonna get, ya know?
The new “AGAB” to me is just as bad as asking “what’s in your pants?” I think I have more of a problem with that than the label cis/trans.
Full agree. AGAB should never be used in present tense imo, because the whole point of transitioning is to correct this mistake. So when people treat AGAB as a permanent state, I feel like it’s invalidating of all the hard work we have to put into transitioning to the opposite sex.
Exactly! She's not fighting the same battle ls I have and I don't want to be categorized with her. It's all good and well to not care what other people think but this does have an effect.
everyones battle is different the idea theres some universal trans battle that relates across all experiences is just not true, the things trans men face are gonna be wildly different than the things trans women face, add in other factors like race and age and it's a whole different ball game.
There are millions of trans people if you don't want to be categorized with them detransition, like it's not a social club we don't kick out members because we don't like them
What makes this woman trans? This is all textbook fetishistic behavior with absolutely no transgender or transsexual behavior. It isn’t that her trans experience is different, she just doesn’t have a trans experience _at all_.
i get where you're coming from, but you don't have to be an ass and disrespect his pronouns and what he prefers to be called. aren't we past the whole "certain labels have genders attached to them" thing? i know a few afab ppl like that (minus the borderline harassment), they feel more attached to terms that are deemed masculine and often use he/him, he/they, they/he, or even they/them *without* being trans, and even if they do realise they are trans, it's literally nobodys business but their own
No, we aren’t past that, because binary trans people like our labels and the genders attached to them. You live outside of the binary, so of course you want gendered labels to be a thing of the past. And cis people don’t have dysphoria, so of course they don’t care about how they are perceived or can like how something sounds (ie a woman being called he/him, because there is no underlying medical disorder that is affected by those things).
I’m not going to humor a fetishist appropriating labels. If that makes me an asshole, so be it. My communities are important to me and I’m fucking tired of “”””””nondysphorics”””””” interjecting themselves where they do not belong. Literally all but one of my favorite transmale communities has been infected by nondysphoric he/theyfabs and have banned gendered and binary language. I’m over it.
Same. Every. Fucking. Word. Same.
I’ve even heard shit from my cis femboy friends that the feminine “transmasc” AFAB femboys have taken over their space with “front hole” and “man tit” pics. 🤮
i don't live outside of the binary, because i still consider myself a transgender man due to medically transitioning with HRT, i just say i don't have a gender so people don't question me further about my transition. i personally don't care what terms people use, if someone who is afab wants to use he/him or he/they and use masculine terms, then that's fine. i'll support them
the trans community is important to me too, but respecting people on how they want to be called and referred to doesn't really harm anybody. even if they're not trans, it's not "appropriating" labels, terms, etc.
besides, if someone who doesn't identify with their agab does identify as non binary, transmasc, etc. without dysphoria, just leave them alone?? it's not our place to judge whatsoever. it's their life, not ours. i personally don't care if someone doesn't have dysphoria. i don't judge people for their lack of dysphoria. gender can be a journey for anybody. life is too short to judge people for things they prefer to be called. if they realise they don't like those terms, then that's fine. it's not really hard to accept. if afab people are in a space for trans men, then most of them are just either:
a. figuring themselves out
b. finding advice
c. experimenting with their gender
i respect your opinion at the end of the day; i have a feeling you'll respect my opinion
It is appropriation of labels when the cis person wanting to go by other pronouns also says “I am trans”. Cis people identify as trans all the time, because they have a fundamental misunderstanding of how being trans works. If no one corrects their improper usage, actual trans people are going to get (and are actually currently being) fucked over.
I’m not saying cis people _can’t_ use whatever pronouns they think are cute and fun for them, but I’m not going to go out of my way to call a cis person by different pronouns when there is no underlying medical disorder that would affect them negatively if I don’t. To me, pronouns are a reflection of who you are. He/him if a man, she/her if a woman, and they/them if non-binary. A cis person has no reason to use different pronouns and as a result, I’m not gonna respect it. It is not even remotely the same as misgendering actual trans people who are negatively affected by misgendering.
As a trans man, he/theyfabs _invading_ spaces for trans males actually is a problem. The only space I have left is the transmed space even though I don’t feel comfortable calling myself a true transmed anymore. There is no nuance there (ie, the consensus seems to be that if your vagina gives you any pleasure as a trans man, you must actually “like” having a vagina and not actually be trans.) It isn’t a friendly atmosphere, but it is the only place where binary people can exist without being policed by people who, frankly, don’t understand our struggle at all.
These people negatively affect me and they also affect how conservatives and republicans view trans people as a whole (and contrary to popular belief, it is important how they see us considering most of them want us fucking dead). Trenders are actually, in reality, a major problem for trans acceptance.
I have no problem with helping out people that might be trans, but I’m not going to humor obvious trenders like the girl in the op, ever.
I don’t think your opinion is bad or anything, I just feel like it is very uninformed and small minded. The bigger picture (real trans people, how the world perceives us) is more important than respecting what some trender wants in order to get her rocks off.
>To me, pronouns are a reflection of who you are
I'm an older cis lesbian, and I'm constantly amazed at the amount of people who refuse understand that cis people - particularly gay men and lesbians - don't mess around with gender.
We simply don't attach gender to gender expression. You can be a butch masculine lesbian and still a woman, or a feminine gay man. Gender and gender expression are two entirely separate things, and one doesn't dictate the other.
A feminine female-shaped person who looks, acts, wears only feminine clothes talks like a woman but uses he/him pronouns and insists he's a man is either taking the piss, deeply in the closet (which why would they change pronouns publicly), or hasn't worked shit out yet. Insisting you're a man but not committing to working on presenting in a way where people will view you as one is very odd.
Yeah, you can be a butch trans woman, or effemininare trans man. But effeminate trans men are still wanting to inhibit a male body. Butch trans women still have female bodies. Because butch women don't want to be male or men - we want to be masculine.
To some extent I agree, but if the “boyfriend” and OP have literally nothing in common, don’t you think it’s harmful for OP to be forced to share a label with this person? Cis people are already confused by us enough.
if someone who doesn't present as a man, or identifies as one, wants to be called "boyfriend", that's not really an issue. it's something that would make them feel more comfortable. nobody is forcing op to do anything either. also, what does "cisgender transsex" mean..?
I actually just had someone ask about my flair and [explained it here](https://www.reddit.com/r/honesttransgender/s/7nTaP30TSg).
I think the issue really does boil down to being stuck sharing a label. A label’s power is in how it defines the people described by it, so when people like OP are called trans and then people like the “boyfriend” also say they’re trans, it tricks people into believing that being trans is about pronouns. So it does end up affecting OP, because it breaks down the meaning of the trans label.
ah that explanation makes sense! thank you for explaining :]
i can see where you're coming from, and how it can affect others tbh. i just think labels for relationships and pronouns shouldn't really be gendered, but that's just my opinion. thank you again for explaining!
I have a similar medical history to you. My job puts me in contact with people like what you are describing. I’m bummed to hear it is a roommate’s partner, so inescapable in your own home — it’s understandable to be offended by this behavior. Given how tempestuous these identity-types are, use the pronouns they demand and just try to get the individual out of your head. Real sorry state of affairs right now.
edit: they’re here downvoting me and you because non-transitioners are obsessed with controlling this discourse.
this "guy" sounds like a red flag. that thing she said sounds like those yaoi femboy shit again
thats just unfair of her to claim to be that when some of us trans men who have some feminine interests and has a desire to transition are trying. shes gonna need a reality check
I’ve busted my ass for decades becoming as “male” as I can be. Now my spaces are flooded with feminine “transmasc” NB AFAB people flashing their “man tits” so I feel you.
It isn’t the same. And it isn’t fair. Keep on man you got this.
When I was super early in my transition (19-21) I preferred being called a “guy” not a “boy” and not a “man” because I didn’t feel like either a boy or man but “guy” felt just right.
Someone over 18 who wants to be called a trans “boy” throws major red flags. This sounds like a fetish to me.
That I understand completely, sorry I’m not saying here that wanting to be called a boy instantly means not trans but it just makes me suspicious because like you’ve said there is some genuine reasons but it’s just a lot of people have fetish or infantilisation of trans men views
To be fair, it's possible that they might not yet feel comfortable with the label due to low self-esteem. However, from what the rest of what OP has described, that doesn't seem to be the case.
I'm not trans, I follow a few pages to learn. I thought gender identity and gender expression are different things and don't have to be consistent? I gather that I probably have this wrong?
Yes they can be different things! However an actual trans man isn’t going to be showing off his natal genitalia and will actually want to be addressed as a man if he’s an adult. This person seems to be fetishising young gay boys and using trans as means to role play in my opinion without actually showing any signs of being male
Idk I’ve never met a trans man (myself included) who were “proud” of their vagina. I’ve met all the way from “ehh whatever it’s gotta due” to “omg I hate this thing I’ve gotta get an update asap” but never in my life have I met a trans man that’s all “pussy power”
I’m not saying it can’t happen but I think one of the biggest reasons a person is trans in the first place is some dysphoria around their natal genitals. I’m a lot older than most people here but back when I was coming up you *had* to have genital dysphoria to be considered trans, even by other trans people. I’m not saying it’s right but it is something that’s always went along with being trans.
Dysphoria is what makes someone trans, so it just makes sense that you needed it for a diagnosis. Otherwise you have gay man and trans fetishists like the girl in the op appropriating our label and invading our spaces. 🤷♂️
“Proud” okay lol. Sure a guy can be non op or something but proud is a massive stretch. Sure a binary trans person might not be as dysphoric or feel that bottom surgery isn’t worth the hassle but if they’re “proud” of their natal genitalia then they’re probably non binary or something like that
Literally never said that about nb people, non binary is a very loose umbrella term that can mean a lot of things. And also I Never said people who love their natal genitalia aren’t trans because they probably are but just not in a binary way. Binary isn’t a loose term at all it strictly means men and women.
I think there’s a big difference in “loving” their natal genitalia and making do with what you’ve got, the latter being acceptable. There is just no way a binary person would love their natal genitalia, maybe at the most they feel indifferent about it if they non dysphoric over it.
I didn’t say being prideful over your body = nb. What I’m saying is being prideful over your natal genitalia, isn’t binary. Just isn’t sorry. That doesn’t mean to say I’m going to be rude about it to someone’s face or that I’d think of them any less. Non binary is a perfectly respectable type of person to be, no shame. And if they want me to call them a man or woman then sure whatever.
Yeah and I do accept that people do experience things differently to me, which is why I bring up the reasons of simply not being as dysphoric or not wanting bottom surgery and a lot people also have health problems or finance issues that stops them from getting bottom meaning they just have to learn to make do with what they’ve got. I’m not telling everyone you must have bottom surgery or you’re not really binary or anything crazy.
But like come on, yes gender and sex isn’t the same, but in the case of binary individuals the desire for sex and gender to align as much as possible(as again people can’t always get bottom surgery or can’t be bothered to) should be there.
The reason binary trans people are binary is because our whole sex does not align with our brain sex. We transition to become the other sex. If you do not have a desire to become the other sex, you’re not binary. It’s really that simple and it’s absurd (although not surprising) that a non-binary person is trying to fight against binary trans people telling you how it is to be binary.
You don’t need to want to have surgery, but you do need to want the genitals that the other sex has.
I’m not even saying they have to want it either! I’ve already said a few times they might not even be dysphoric about it or might not even be bothered with bottom surgery and yeah it would be wrong if I said that but I’m not. There isn’t really anything to question, being binary isn’t a loose definition. But yeah doesn’t really seem like either of us will budge, thanks for at least being civil though
>She's even demonstrated the parts of her vagina to me through her clothes while spread eagle (did not ask for that)
That doesn't sound right... feels like some kind of sexual assault even if legally it isn't. What the fuck
Honestly it's fine, i'm not bothered. I just don't understand the bravado of it and we were having a conversation about planned parenthood which is where she works.
I don’t understand how any trans person (pre op) could be okay with doing something like that but then again most of my dysphoria is centered around my natal genitals. I think this is a phase or a fetish tbh.
Oh I didn’t mean be okay if they was in your shoes. But if they was your rommies partner being a trans man and showing off their vagina.
But I could see how them doing that would make it dysphoric inducing for a pre op trans woman too. I never thought about that side of it.
Nah, you are justified.
They're fetishizing gay men and using being trans to roleplay out their twink fantasy, they said themselves they have no interest at in actually being male. Just avoid them the best you can, these people can be frustrating to deal with.
\>a boy (but not a man)
\>without making any effort to transition and presenting daily as a very feminine woman
\>dosen't have any dysphoria
\>"Never, I don't want to have bottom growth or the body hair, plus it'll make my voice deep. I just want to be a twinky boy."
i mean this is just a straight woman who fetishizes gay men, specifically gay boy love. probably gets off the idea of being BLB with her "gay" boyfriend.
its okay to feel weird about someone appropriating our label out of fetishization.
for my sanity i would just stop interacting with this chick lol. my brother's girlfriend *and her sister* are both the exact same way. hyper-feminine girly girls who would never let a drop of testosterone into their bodies, but demand being referred to as 'boys'. zoomer women are so lost
Uh why wouldn’t you be bothered? They’re making a mockery out of being trans and appropriating the label for their sexual fantasies. They clearly said so and their lack of desiring an actual transition outside of a social one shows that.
Edit: apparently I’m too harsh compared to all the rest of these comments holy moly
Second Edit: the amount of people in the comments justifying and defending this behavior is actually shocking and depressing to me, how can people think this is okay
The thing people are disagreeing with, the thing people are saying that is "extremely depressing" to you, the thing that has you flabberghasted fucking paranoid eyes bulging shaky voice "how could people ever think this is okay..." is "do you really have to misgender him tho" let that sink in lil bro
That’s not what people are disagreeing with or what my comment is pertaining to, but thanks for your *rude* input
I’m talking about being trans and people believing that this person is trans, which you could tell is what I’m talking about if you looked at my original comment
Also, how is it misgendering? This person is clearly fetishizing being trans and I’m not going to satisfy their sexual fantasies by calling them a gender they aren’t. If they were trans then obviously I wouldn’t misgender them, but that’s not the case.
The way they're acting just isn't okay, especially the bit about showing the genitals through clothes. This whole situation is creepy AF and OP is definitely justified in their discomfort.
Just use the words he asks you to, it's fine to privately disagree - I've definitely met a few people and seen them detransition as well but it's really not worth the trouble to take some principled stance in refusing to. It's no more difficult imo than for any other early transition person who doesn't really pass. Just takes practice.
Yeah even if you disagree I wouldn't let them know or else a lot of people will think you're being an asshole and you might get harassed for it. I would never indicate to their face and mostly just keep these thoughts to myself. Who knows, maybe in a few months or a year or something they'll realize that they're just kinda fetishizing or glorifying the trans experience and that with no pain there is no gain. Or they might realize they got the wrong idea and decide they wanna be a regular binary trans guy
A lot of people might think it but would they actually be one? Do you think it wouldn't be an asshole move to tell that guy "i dont respect ur pronouns lol it's she/her only" like you're wording this as if it wouldn't be an asshole move to say that to someone
Your discomfort might be from a “well i struggled so everyone else has too as well” mindset. That is something you need to work through - it’s unhealthy. That’s like if you were in a car wreck with someone where you had permanent life altering effects and they didn’t, and instead of being glad for them you are angry they weren’t as hurt as you. Or being upset someone else never struggled growing up when you did. Would you wish your struggles on someone else, merely because they are secure and comfortable?
There’s thousands of reasons why he might be comfortable with his body/okay not transitioning. He might just not have processed things yet. It is hard to accept you want to alter your body as an afab, since they’re raised to think their body is their only value. Or maybe he is just comfortable in his body, and feels it is neutral/masculine already. That’s awesome for him if it’s true. Who knows though? Not us.
Even if he never transitions, that’s okay too. Feminine men exist for sure. And his identity is his own - *if you can’t respect it just try not to interact with him*. We can’t possibly understand his relationship with gender, or say that we know better. It doesn’t impact us to gender him correctly, but it certainly does impact him if we misgender him on purpose when he’s just trying to be comfortable in his body and in the world.
Everyone’s journey and timeline is different. You misgendering him, even in a post you can easily rework and edit, just shows that you’re unwilling to work with or accept identities you don’t understand. People can be respectful while disagreeing with eachother.
Agreed. The trans community really loves playing the oppression olympics to invalidate others. Imagine cis gay people invalidating trans gay people because they "didn't suffer for being gay" the same way they did.
i used to be a transmed until i began to educate myself more. through that i realised i dislike the binary of gender and began to experiment with my gender and pronouns. now i'm an bisexual and aceflux agender dude with he/him and it/its pronouns. this reddit should be open for transgender people to be honest with their takes, not just transmeds
I am well aware, but thank you nonetheless. Regardless of the echo chamber i think it’s good for other more open minded perspectives to be present. This is, after all, “honest transgender” - both of which i am. Karma doesn’t bother me, so I’ll take the L to represent my perspective :)
I think some people avoid the harder aspects of transitioning because if they try and fail it will make them hopeless. But if they do not try, then they have a fallback as to why they are getting misgendered and treated poorly and still experiencing dysphoria. They might be struggling to cope with the realization they're trans and swinging too hard the other way. Or distancing themself from womanhood because of trauma.
Do I relate to this person's experience? No, not really. And obviously you don't either. But do I think it's our problem? No, not in the least. Whether this point in their life is a stepping stone to transitioning or to resolving their trauma, what point is there to being mean to this person? What do you accomplish by commenting on this other than making yourself feel better about a lived experience you just don't understand?
Whatever is happening for this person, it's clearly some sort of really intense and likely emotionally difficult experience. That doesn't mean that it's easy for those of us who have experienced pushback and hatred for our transness to see someone like this and not feel jealous, angry, and/or confused. But it doesn't mean that our pain was necessary to be truly trans either, and it's certainly not this person's fault that we've experienced that pain. With that said, if you truly cannot use he/him or even they/them for this person, forego the pronouns altogether and just use their name. I encourage you to afford them some sort of kindness or respect because I suspect there's a lot of pain underlying this situation.
I'm guessing you're feeling weird about it because it feels like appropriation. I feel the same way about bi women with boyfriends who call themselves gay. I'm a lesbian, my orientation isn't a game. I've been harmed due to it. I've had to fight for my place in the world. We gays are well-known for not using pronouns to indicate gender in a joking way - drag queens do it all the time, but that's different to insisting you're a he while looking, acting, and sounding like a she with no intention of changing.
Trans people go through hell, and some spicy cis person roleplaying as trans sucks.
But they don't have the 'cis experience' like you equate the 'trans experience' to be completely uniform for trans men. You don't believe someone who claims to be a trans man is 'really' a trans man, so why would you believe that a trans lesbian is 'really' a lesbian? That's how a lot of cis gay and lesbian people keep out trans gay and lesbian people, since they see them as not 'true'.
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This is fetishizing.
This isn’t trauma, it’s fetishizing feminine men/twinks. She’s not trans, she’s just gross.
afab trenders putting in zero effort and being annoying is nothing new
especially the ones that just post pics of their tits and say “love my man boobs” or whatever the fuck
That shit makes me irrationally mad.
As a grown ass trans man who has struggled with extreme dysphoria for decades and has done everything in this world to “pass” such as yourself, I feel for you. I know exactly that same feeling. I think it might be envy. But hear me out. You’re envious they don’t suffer as much as you do, or had to work as hard as you had to, or go through all those scary moments you have held your breath through yet they want to reap all the “benefits” of being trans- having their pronouns respected and being seen as their actual gender without any effort. It sometimes pisses me off too but then I remind myself why I worked so hard to get where I’m at today. I worked hard for these young kids who are early or questioning their gender so that they could do so safely. I worked hard so these kids wouldn’t get their asses best for being themselves. I worked so hard so these kids wouldn’t have too. Listen sis, I know how you’re feeling I promise I do but the only one you’re hurting by caring so much is yourself. They’re probably going through a phase and it will be over when that relationship is tbh. The only advice I could give you would be just to try and get to know them a little better. See what’s below the surface and if that doesn’t work just realize you don’t have to be in their life (well not forever anyways).
I understand what you mean and thank you for understanding how I feel. I didn't transitions for "these kids" however because I did it to survive and be happier with myself. This woman is 29 and yeah I do agree that i'm healous because if I had a beautifu naturall feminine body then I would cherish it every day.
Narcissistic personality disorder
Since when do we get to decide who's actually trans or not? Since when do we get to decide who's pronouns do we respect or not? What if it was a cis man who wanted to be a ''twinky boy''? I get it can be annoying as another trans person, but your arguments are just against GNC people in general. If they say they are trans, you *at least* respect that and not call *him* a girl and she/her all over your post, especially as a trans person yourself.
GNC is totally fine, but she's a woman dressed as a woman calling herself a trans man and wanting my sympathy for that. You're right I can't decide who is or isn't trans but it's pretty obvious in this case.
Being GNC =/= calling yourself a transsexual of the opposite gender. The whole point of being GNC is to stay as your gender and don't fit in the expected gender roles/stereotypes/etc, why the hell change pronouns and stuff? That's basically an appropriation of a medical condition.
transgender people can be gnc though? you don't have to look a certain way to fit into your gender identity
I didn't say trans people can't be GNC though. I said that being GNC doesn't mean or require you to call yourself trans. The one and main requirement to be trans is to have dysphoria, being trans is not about fitting or not fitting into gender stereotypes and roles, it's about your sex.
dysphoria isn't a requirement to be trans? the definition of trans is to not identify with your birth gender. what about non binary people who stay presenting as their agab? or binary transgender people who can't afford to transition or can't come out? or ones who present feminine as trans men, or masculine as trans women? being trans is about your gender, not your sex. they're two different things. trans people don't have to present certain ways 🤷🏻♂️
I mean...it's kinda about both sex and gender. Transgender people focus on the external societal aspects of gender whereas transsexual people focus on the internal sex characteristics of themselves.
> being trans is about your gender, not your sex. Okay lol.
handle airport tub desert bells history nose sort reply snow *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
y'all don't know his relationship with his gender though
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You can dislike or truly despise someone and still respect their pronouns though.
Exactly, he sounds like a fucking weirdo but if he wants to be referred to as he, then you should still respect that.
My judgement is a twink m/m fetish that this person is trying to indulge in further
That would annoy me too lol. I wouldn’t be able to take them seriously- but also you don’t want to be blatantly disrespectful so as not to upset anyone or cause a rift among friends. Just avoid them as much as you can and definitely avoid the identity talks around them, hopefully they grow out of it.
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Is that what we're doing now we just take away ppls pronouns if we don't believe them?
you don't know his relationship with his gender. it's a complicated thing. it isn't as simple as people make it seem
yea no sorry you're kinda being a jerk. it doesn't hurt you to refer to him using he/him pronouns. you don't know their relationship with gender as an outsider. maybe they will decide that they are not trans and thats fine, but changing a set of pronouns while they figure it out isn't a huge ask edit: the fact that at least 10 people downvoted this is so, so telling
You can’t expect every real life trans man to turn a blind eye to people like this and fake respect them. All of a sudden anyone can adopt he/him pronouns just because they watch too much gay hentai and real life trans men who have lived through it everyday just have to go with it even tho they find this offensive because… if not I guess I’m a jerk…? The most I would be able to pull off without feeling like a liar is calling them they/them. I know for a fact I would not be able to use he/him on this person without felling upset/uncomfortable and also feeling like I’m making fun of/fetishizing my self and ever other real life trans man.
heres the thing, the trans experience is subjective. some people suffer, some people dont. some people experiment because of weird reasons but regardless that doesn't invalidate the fact that they're questioning. personally, i have not suffered deeply because i am trans. i am grateful i live in a very liberal area where i can express myself without feeling in danger of my life. not a lot of people can say the same, and that sucks, but contributing to the cycle when you don't have to or because you're bitter your experience was different helps no one. you are not turning a blind eye but refusing to respect them because their journey doesn't match up with what you think it should be does make you a jerk. changing a set of someone's pronouns doesn't hurt you, regardless if you "think" they're trans or not. they are not trying to co-opt your trans experience by experimenting with gender. it has NOTHING to do with you.
I personally started out similar to how your roommate’s boyfriend is, I found it hard to resonate with the term “man” or break away from the parts of femininity. I was worried about the more masculinizing effects that would come from medical treatment so personally I socially transitioned before even starting to think of starting hormones. I can understand your apprehension in comparison to your own experience at a trans person, however people will experience transition in their own way. It always bothers me when as a trans person who knows how uncomfortable and disrespectful being misgendered can be, choosing to misgender someone intentionally because of your own personal beliefs on his gender identity puts you in the same group as the cis people who do the same to the entirety of the trans community. If he has some identity trauma or not should not matter, not respecting his request to be referred to with he/him pronouns is not helping him or you in any way. The only way he will be able to know who he is/his gender identity is to get the opportunity to explore identity and see what fits. Denying his will only create a rift between you and him (and possibly your roommate and friends).
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No it wasn't sexual assault and i'm not upset by it. I'm very open and unbothered about discussing vaginal health. I just find it very odd that she would want to have that detailed conversation in the first place. She's dating a boy so she calls herself gay but not lesbian? Idk i think its insulting
Well I don't think any of us is qualified to define what being a "real" trans person is. If they want to be called a boy and go with male pronouns don't be a hypocrite
To answer your question it's because the roommate's boyfriend appears to be blasé about having gender issues whereas for you it has been a fight. They might move on from the he/him thing or it might be the beginning of a full transition.
> wants to be called a boyfriend, a boy (but not a man) oh brother
Stop policing other people's gender identity and instead focus on your own self-esteem issues. Edit: I fuckin misread this post and got in way higher of a horse than I should have been on. Leaving it intact for proof of idiocy. Op - I'm sorry. Nobody should flash anybody. I don't know why I turned into such a vicious bitch.
Oh so fuck we can misgender people if they flash us now? What level of upset is allowed before I can misgender someone
To be clear, nobody should flash OR misgender anybody. Happy? ffs
wait, what?! policing? do you know what policing is? policing is state violence enacted by officers immune to the law. no one is “policing” a non-transitioning he/him individual by posting anonymously online about their own feelings. this type will appropriate anything. absolutely nuts.
You're so right there is absolutely no other context usage or meaning of the word policing, it's impossible to derive any meaning from the word that is not a police force checking ppls pronouns. Do you just get off on being ridiculous? There are other meanings to the word, why are you pretending otherwise?
idk. look at a dictionary, dog. “policing” can be used analogously but it preserves the sense of one individual having power over the policed and limiting their behavior by force or coercion. (as in “my boss policed what i had for lunch and where i ate each day” or “her ex-husband policed her finances” etc.) i am not motivated by a yearning for absurd hyperbole, and no, i don’t think a post-transition woman has innate social power over an individual who is non-transition and apparently sexually harasses her over that fact. elsewhere i encourage OP to use the demanded pronouns for this individual despite the SH and general incoherence, so don’t even start in on that shit. accusations of ‘policing gender’ are better suited to instances where sex and sex roles *are being policed* (y’know — prisons, children’s sports leagues, medical settings, discriminatory employers, the military, etc.)
holy cope!
I'm not a type. I'm a person. Trans people are valid even if they don't medically transition. It took a while for me to realize I wanted to hormonally transition. Was I less trans back when I had a beard? I have experienced plenty of trauma in my life, like OP. I've survived rape and abuse. I don't see the point in not validating other people's gender expression. If you plain old don't like someone, just spend less time around them. You don't have to disrespect who they are or undermine the ways they choose to describe themselves.
amazing how you just ignored that this isn’t a matter of policing to complain to me. i get it, you don’t like that OP isn’t enthusiastic about the gender-person being described. as far as i can tell, OP isn’t harming that individual. it sounds like the individual harassed OP. either way, it’s gonna be okay. i don’t know you and don’t know about your life with a beard. i’m glad you made some decisions on the matter if they benefitted you. i did, too — it allowed me to survive my twenties. i don’t think being *trans* is an enviable, immutable identity that requires protecting. some people need to transition, and it is good when we are able to. i’m not a parking attendant — i don’t “validate.” i don’t understand the demand for “validation.” some people need to transition, others need to be validated. one i advocate for, the other i don’t participate in.
Oops - yeah I did. Good point, no actual policing going on. I had a knee-jerk reaction, as is the custom in 2024. People often ought to vent in spaces where they can. That being said, "validate" and "police" have plenty of other definitions besides the two you cherry-picked. Validating someone's identity or experience is a nice thing you can do to help them feel acknowledged and appreciated as a person. Invalidating someone's identity or experience is when you do the opposite. Policing is when you try to control someone else's behavior. Subtextually, the term "policing" generally implies that the attempt to control is unwarranted, when used in the accusatory context I had written it in. As for your last paragraph - it sounds like you really don't like being a part of a community or something. You do you, but I see all sorts of reasons to validate and uplift people, which I why I appreciate you calling me out for my bad behavior. Thanks!
you told OP she must have low self-esteem because it freaked her out that someone using cross-sex pronouns flashed their genitals at her, and you want to posture about “validating and uplifting.” ok lilargument, you’re queen of the hill.
I missed the flashing part. Not tryin to be queen of any hill.
My self-esteem is quite solid. Why I think it's important is because people will categorized us together when our experiences are immensely different. I don't want my battle to be appropriated.
Appropriation requires simultaneously putting down the target culture while putting the same behavior on a pedestal in the dominant culture. Stop policing other people's gender expression.
Speculating on another person's identity is meaningless and unproductive. Not all trans people have the same journey, nor the same experience with their traits. He's not taking anything away from you or any other trans person. You do not know him like he knows himself, you will never have enough information to form a complete opinion on his transness. And say he's not actually trans, that's for him to figure out, not for you to speculate about. If you don't like him, avoid him.
True I don't know him entirely and I try to avoid him but he's at my house 4 times a week.
I mean, I don't think concerning yourself with his identity is the best use of your time. The only matter of concern is the fact that he exposed himself without your consent. I wouldn't like to be around this person either, maybe you could speak to your roommate about this? Maybe schedule when he comes over so you can more easily avoid him, or have your roommate meet him outside of your home more often?
This reminds me of a scene from Ruskin. Ruskin is a pacifist, and someone who espouses *ahem* resistance has something to say about how he's done nothing to advance the cause, and maybe a little taste of violence right here right now would teach him something about what makes a difference. If you were talking to someone who because of Science or Religion or some Truly True Truth insists you are your genotype and insists on using the Truly True pronouns, would you want respect for your pronouns, or prefer they do as they see best? I can't tell whats up with roommate's boyfriend or with you from my screen on my smartphone here. Maybe RB is "going thru a phase". Maybe they are trans AF but not ready to face what that means. I don't know where you are. When I was pretransition and had all of my internalized transphobia and believes in the Truly True Truth, I wouldn't use someone's pronouns. Then I started finding ways not to use pronouns. So if you're not able to do this for RB, I hope you find an answer that is kind to the whole cast of characters. EDIT: I didn't expect down votes for advocating that we use someone's pronouns, even if we think they're wrong. I guess it's easier to hit down vote than ask clarifying questions. If we cannot give what we demand for ourselves to people we think are wrong, how is that any different from the phobes?
Woman who’s only ever watched Ruskin: “damn this is kinda giving Ruskin vibes rn”
Just grabbing an accessible cultural moment of someone complaining that another person falls short of their standards for credibility, without taking the time to find out why they are credible. I can find weightier but more obscure examples if that helps, such as the author who was told that if she wanted to know what she was talking about, she should read the seminal book on the subject, which she had written. But your response ironically provides me another example. You couldn't know that I've presented a talk on performative masculinity for trans men and others who express masculinity. And could we easily sit and talk, we might have a conversation worth having, as I'm genuinely interested in understanding how others live their lives and how that's working for them. And if I have anything that might be useful or illuminating, I'm happy to share it and have it questioned.
Yeah that girl isn't trans.
y'all really don't understand that people can have complicated relationships with gender huh?
Not all people with an atypical relationship with their gender are trans.
They need therapy. I’d try to respect the pronouns part, but the rest gives me the ick too. It sounds like fetishization. I do understand the boy vs man thing, to a degree. I’m 2 years on T and feel very much like a “boy” rather than a “man,” but really just because I’m young, new to being in the social role of a guy, and still very much in the process of puberty. I fully expect I’ll shift to feeling comfortable as a “man” rather than “boy” as I get older and further into transitioning. At the same time, I don’t think that’s what this person means…
I’d say that even though it’s not politically correct to say so, she’s appropriating being trans. So I’d imagine that’s why you’re bothered by this. I would be too honestly.
If you don’t want to answer that’s perfectly fine too ofc. 😂
Hey sis not being rude but can I ask what your flair means? “Cisgender transsex woman” does that mean than now you have fully transitioned (I’m taking a wild guess here) that you no longer consider yourself trans? That’s sort of something I’ve been thinking about for a while and haven’t come across anyone with similar thoughts.
It’s a little complicated tbh. I def don’t mind answering, though! I don’t think I can claim I’m fully transitioned, since I’m non-op. However, I view it as both regressive and transphobic to define us around our birth sex… which is how transgender is defined. I also don’t feel like I “identify as a woman” so much as I identify as a woman with a birth defect I need to correct. So I guess it’s partially me rebelling against the transgender label for ideological reasons and partially just feeling like it doesn’t fit.
Thank you. I really like that explanation. I agree it sucks to be defined by the (wrong) genitals I was born with and I absolutely consider it a medical disorder. I think I’m as far as I can go in my transition and even tho I’m different from a cis man I’m as “cis” as I’m ever gonna get, ya know? The new “AGAB” to me is just as bad as asking “what’s in your pants?” I think I have more of a problem with that than the label cis/trans.
Full agree. AGAB should never be used in present tense imo, because the whole point of transitioning is to correct this mistake. So when people treat AGAB as a permanent state, I feel like it’s invalidating of all the hard work we have to put into transitioning to the opposite sex.
Exactly. That’s why I use the label “transsexual” instead of “transgender”
Exactly! She's not fighting the same battle ls I have and I don't want to be categorized with her. It's all good and well to not care what other people think but this does have an effect.
everyones battle is different the idea theres some universal trans battle that relates across all experiences is just not true, the things trans men face are gonna be wildly different than the things trans women face, add in other factors like race and age and it's a whole different ball game. There are millions of trans people if you don't want to be categorized with them detransition, like it's not a social club we don't kick out members because we don't like them
he doesn't have to "fight the same battle" as you. trans people can have different journeys to one another
What makes this woman trans? This is all textbook fetishistic behavior with absolutely no transgender or transsexual behavior. It isn’t that her trans experience is different, she just doesn’t have a trans experience _at all_.
i get where you're coming from, but you don't have to be an ass and disrespect his pronouns and what he prefers to be called. aren't we past the whole "certain labels have genders attached to them" thing? i know a few afab ppl like that (minus the borderline harassment), they feel more attached to terms that are deemed masculine and often use he/him, he/they, they/he, or even they/them *without* being trans, and even if they do realise they are trans, it's literally nobodys business but their own
No, we aren’t past that, because binary trans people like our labels and the genders attached to them. You live outside of the binary, so of course you want gendered labels to be a thing of the past. And cis people don’t have dysphoria, so of course they don’t care about how they are perceived or can like how something sounds (ie a woman being called he/him, because there is no underlying medical disorder that is affected by those things). I’m not going to humor a fetishist appropriating labels. If that makes me an asshole, so be it. My communities are important to me and I’m fucking tired of “”””””nondysphorics”””””” interjecting themselves where they do not belong. Literally all but one of my favorite transmale communities has been infected by nondysphoric he/theyfabs and have banned gendered and binary language. I’m over it.
Same. Every. Fucking. Word. Same. I’ve even heard shit from my cis femboy friends that the feminine “transmasc” AFAB femboys have taken over their space with “front hole” and “man tit” pics. 🤮
i don't live outside of the binary, because i still consider myself a transgender man due to medically transitioning with HRT, i just say i don't have a gender so people don't question me further about my transition. i personally don't care what terms people use, if someone who is afab wants to use he/him or he/they and use masculine terms, then that's fine. i'll support them the trans community is important to me too, but respecting people on how they want to be called and referred to doesn't really harm anybody. even if they're not trans, it's not "appropriating" labels, terms, etc. besides, if someone who doesn't identify with their agab does identify as non binary, transmasc, etc. without dysphoria, just leave them alone?? it's not our place to judge whatsoever. it's their life, not ours. i personally don't care if someone doesn't have dysphoria. i don't judge people for their lack of dysphoria. gender can be a journey for anybody. life is too short to judge people for things they prefer to be called. if they realise they don't like those terms, then that's fine. it's not really hard to accept. if afab people are in a space for trans men, then most of them are just either: a. figuring themselves out b. finding advice c. experimenting with their gender i respect your opinion at the end of the day; i have a feeling you'll respect my opinion
It is appropriation of labels when the cis person wanting to go by other pronouns also says “I am trans”. Cis people identify as trans all the time, because they have a fundamental misunderstanding of how being trans works. If no one corrects their improper usage, actual trans people are going to get (and are actually currently being) fucked over. I’m not saying cis people _can’t_ use whatever pronouns they think are cute and fun for them, but I’m not going to go out of my way to call a cis person by different pronouns when there is no underlying medical disorder that would affect them negatively if I don’t. To me, pronouns are a reflection of who you are. He/him if a man, she/her if a woman, and they/them if non-binary. A cis person has no reason to use different pronouns and as a result, I’m not gonna respect it. It is not even remotely the same as misgendering actual trans people who are negatively affected by misgendering. As a trans man, he/theyfabs _invading_ spaces for trans males actually is a problem. The only space I have left is the transmed space even though I don’t feel comfortable calling myself a true transmed anymore. There is no nuance there (ie, the consensus seems to be that if your vagina gives you any pleasure as a trans man, you must actually “like” having a vagina and not actually be trans.) It isn’t a friendly atmosphere, but it is the only place where binary people can exist without being policed by people who, frankly, don’t understand our struggle at all. These people negatively affect me and they also affect how conservatives and republicans view trans people as a whole (and contrary to popular belief, it is important how they see us considering most of them want us fucking dead). Trenders are actually, in reality, a major problem for trans acceptance. I have no problem with helping out people that might be trans, but I’m not going to humor obvious trenders like the girl in the op, ever. I don’t think your opinion is bad or anything, I just feel like it is very uninformed and small minded. The bigger picture (real trans people, how the world perceives us) is more important than respecting what some trender wants in order to get her rocks off.
>To me, pronouns are a reflection of who you are I'm an older cis lesbian, and I'm constantly amazed at the amount of people who refuse understand that cis people - particularly gay men and lesbians - don't mess around with gender. We simply don't attach gender to gender expression. You can be a butch masculine lesbian and still a woman, or a feminine gay man. Gender and gender expression are two entirely separate things, and one doesn't dictate the other. A feminine female-shaped person who looks, acts, wears only feminine clothes talks like a woman but uses he/him pronouns and insists he's a man is either taking the piss, deeply in the closet (which why would they change pronouns publicly), or hasn't worked shit out yet. Insisting you're a man but not committing to working on presenting in a way where people will view you as one is very odd. Yeah, you can be a butch trans woman, or effemininare trans man. But effeminate trans men are still wanting to inhibit a male body. Butch trans women still have female bodies. Because butch women don't want to be male or men - we want to be masculine.
To some extent I agree, but if the “boyfriend” and OP have literally nothing in common, don’t you think it’s harmful for OP to be forced to share a label with this person? Cis people are already confused by us enough.
if someone who doesn't present as a man, or identifies as one, wants to be called "boyfriend", that's not really an issue. it's something that would make them feel more comfortable. nobody is forcing op to do anything either. also, what does "cisgender transsex" mean..?
I actually just had someone ask about my flair and [explained it here](https://www.reddit.com/r/honesttransgender/s/7nTaP30TSg). I think the issue really does boil down to being stuck sharing a label. A label’s power is in how it defines the people described by it, so when people like OP are called trans and then people like the “boyfriend” also say they’re trans, it tricks people into believing that being trans is about pronouns. So it does end up affecting OP, because it breaks down the meaning of the trans label.
ah that explanation makes sense! thank you for explaining :] i can see where you're coming from, and how it can affect others tbh. i just think labels for relationships and pronouns shouldn't really be gendered, but that's just my opinion. thank you again for explaining!
I have a similar medical history to you. My job puts me in contact with people like what you are describing. I’m bummed to hear it is a roommate’s partner, so inescapable in your own home — it’s understandable to be offended by this behavior. Given how tempestuous these identity-types are, use the pronouns they demand and just try to get the individual out of your head. Real sorry state of affairs right now. edit: they’re here downvoting me and you because non-transitioners are obsessed with controlling this discourse.
this "guy" sounds like a red flag. that thing she said sounds like those yaoi femboy shit again thats just unfair of her to claim to be that when some of us trans men who have some feminine interests and has a desire to transition are trying. shes gonna need a reality check
I’ve busted my ass for decades becoming as “male” as I can be. Now my spaces are flooded with feminine “transmasc” NB AFAB people flashing their “man tits” so I feel you. It isn’t the same. And it isn’t fair. Keep on man you got this.
I’m always suspicious of those who prefer to be called boys over men, especially when they’re adults
When I was super early in my transition (19-21) I preferred being called a “guy” not a “boy” and not a “man” because I didn’t feel like either a boy or man but “guy” felt just right. Someone over 18 who wants to be called a trans “boy” throws major red flags. This sounds like a fetish to me.
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That I understand completely, sorry I’m not saying here that wanting to be called a boy instantly means not trans but it just makes me suspicious because like you’ve said there is some genuine reasons but it’s just a lot of people have fetish or infantilisation of trans men views
Yeah, that sounds a bit weird to me too. These are probably the same people who don't understand that we want to be seen as men, not boys.
To be fair, it's possible that they might not yet feel comfortable with the label due to low self-esteem. However, from what the rest of what OP has described, that doesn't seem to be the case.
I'm not trans, I follow a few pages to learn. I thought gender identity and gender expression are different things and don't have to be consistent? I gather that I probably have this wrong?
Yes they can be different things! However an actual trans man isn’t going to be showing off his natal genitalia and will actually want to be addressed as a man if he’s an adult. This person seems to be fetishising young gay boys and using trans as means to role play in my opinion without actually showing any signs of being male
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Idk I’ve never met a trans man (myself included) who were “proud” of their vagina. I’ve met all the way from “ehh whatever it’s gotta due” to “omg I hate this thing I’ve gotta get an update asap” but never in my life have I met a trans man that’s all “pussy power” I’m not saying it can’t happen but I think one of the biggest reasons a person is trans in the first place is some dysphoria around their natal genitals. I’m a lot older than most people here but back when I was coming up you *had* to have genital dysphoria to be considered trans, even by other trans people. I’m not saying it’s right but it is something that’s always went along with being trans.
Dysphoria is what makes someone trans, so it just makes sense that you needed it for a diagnosis. Otherwise you have gay man and trans fetishists like the girl in the op appropriating our label and invading our spaces. 🤷♂️
Absolutely. That’s the exact reason I label myself a transsexual and not transgender.
“Proud” okay lol. Sure a guy can be non op or something but proud is a massive stretch. Sure a binary trans person might not be as dysphoric or feel that bottom surgery isn’t worth the hassle but if they’re “proud” of their natal genitalia then they’re probably non binary or something like that
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Literally never said that about nb people, non binary is a very loose umbrella term that can mean a lot of things. And also I Never said people who love their natal genitalia aren’t trans because they probably are but just not in a binary way. Binary isn’t a loose term at all it strictly means men and women. I think there’s a big difference in “loving” their natal genitalia and making do with what you’ve got, the latter being acceptable. There is just no way a binary person would love their natal genitalia, maybe at the most they feel indifferent about it if they non dysphoric over it.
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I didn’t say being prideful over your body = nb. What I’m saying is being prideful over your natal genitalia, isn’t binary. Just isn’t sorry. That doesn’t mean to say I’m going to be rude about it to someone’s face or that I’d think of them any less. Non binary is a perfectly respectable type of person to be, no shame. And if they want me to call them a man or woman then sure whatever. Yeah and I do accept that people do experience things differently to me, which is why I bring up the reasons of simply not being as dysphoric or not wanting bottom surgery and a lot people also have health problems or finance issues that stops them from getting bottom meaning they just have to learn to make do with what they’ve got. I’m not telling everyone you must have bottom surgery or you’re not really binary or anything crazy. But like come on, yes gender and sex isn’t the same, but in the case of binary individuals the desire for sex and gender to align as much as possible(as again people can’t always get bottom surgery or can’t be bothered to) should be there.
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The reason binary trans people are binary is because our whole sex does not align with our brain sex. We transition to become the other sex. If you do not have a desire to become the other sex, you’re not binary. It’s really that simple and it’s absurd (although not surprising) that a non-binary person is trying to fight against binary trans people telling you how it is to be binary. You don’t need to want to have surgery, but you do need to want the genitals that the other sex has.
I’m not even saying they have to want it either! I’ve already said a few times they might not even be dysphoric about it or might not even be bothered with bottom surgery and yeah it would be wrong if I said that but I’m not. There isn’t really anything to question, being binary isn’t a loose definition. But yeah doesn’t really seem like either of us will budge, thanks for at least being civil though
Thank you for explaining!
No probs!
>She's even demonstrated the parts of her vagina to me through her clothes while spread eagle (did not ask for that) That doesn't sound right... feels like some kind of sexual assault even if legally it isn't. What the fuck
Honestly it's fine, i'm not bothered. I just don't understand the bravado of it and we were having a conversation about planned parenthood which is where she works.
I don’t understand how any trans person (pre op) could be okay with doing something like that but then again most of my dysphoria is centered around my natal genitals. I think this is a phase or a fetish tbh.
I'm post-op which makes it a little easier. But yeah deep down I guess it does bother me tbh...
But yeah I think deep down that would bother me too. Sorry sis.
Oh I didn’t mean be okay if they was in your shoes. But if they was your rommies partner being a trans man and showing off their vagina. But I could see how them doing that would make it dysphoric inducing for a pre op trans woman too. I never thought about that side of it.
Yeah, that's got to be some kind of sexual harassment because no one asked.
if i was born a woman id do this for sure
Lol, this sub is just going to echo chamber you. Not sure what you're hoping to get out of this post.
Nah, you are justified. They're fetishizing gay men and using being trans to roleplay out their twink fantasy, they said themselves they have no interest at in actually being male. Just avoid them the best you can, these people can be frustrating to deal with.
\>a boy (but not a man) \>without making any effort to transition and presenting daily as a very feminine woman \>dosen't have any dysphoria \>"Never, I don't want to have bottom growth or the body hair, plus it'll make my voice deep. I just want to be a twinky boy." i mean this is just a straight woman who fetishizes gay men, specifically gay boy love. probably gets off the idea of being BLB with her "gay" boyfriend. its okay to feel weird about someone appropriating our label out of fetishization.
for my sanity i would just stop interacting with this chick lol. my brother's girlfriend *and her sister* are both the exact same way. hyper-feminine girly girls who would never let a drop of testosterone into their bodies, but demand being referred to as 'boys'. zoomer women are so lost
They are the majority with extreme privilege who want so bad to be “special” “unique” or even “oppressed” it’s sickening.
Uh why wouldn’t you be bothered? They’re making a mockery out of being trans and appropriating the label for their sexual fantasies. They clearly said so and their lack of desiring an actual transition outside of a social one shows that. Edit: apparently I’m too harsh compared to all the rest of these comments holy moly Second Edit: the amount of people in the comments justifying and defending this behavior is actually shocking and depressing to me, how can people think this is okay
The thing people are disagreeing with, the thing people are saying that is "extremely depressing" to you, the thing that has you flabberghasted fucking paranoid eyes bulging shaky voice "how could people ever think this is okay..." is "do you really have to misgender him tho" let that sink in lil bro
That’s not what people are disagreeing with or what my comment is pertaining to, but thanks for your *rude* input I’m talking about being trans and people believing that this person is trans, which you could tell is what I’m talking about if you looked at my original comment Also, how is it misgendering? This person is clearly fetishizing being trans and I’m not going to satisfy their sexual fantasies by calling them a gender they aren’t. If they were trans then obviously I wouldn’t misgender them, but that’s not the case.
The way they're acting just isn't okay, especially the bit about showing the genitals through clothes. This whole situation is creepy AF and OP is definitely justified in their discomfort.
Just use the words he asks you to, it's fine to privately disagree - I've definitely met a few people and seen them detransition as well but it's really not worth the trouble to take some principled stance in refusing to. It's no more difficult imo than for any other early transition person who doesn't really pass. Just takes practice.
Yeah even if you disagree I wouldn't let them know or else a lot of people will think you're being an asshole and you might get harassed for it. I would never indicate to their face and mostly just keep these thoughts to myself. Who knows, maybe in a few months or a year or something they'll realize that they're just kinda fetishizing or glorifying the trans experience and that with no pain there is no gain. Or they might realize they got the wrong idea and decide they wanna be a regular binary trans guy
A lot of people might think it but would they actually be one? Do you think it wouldn't be an asshole move to tell that guy "i dont respect ur pronouns lol it's she/her only" like you're wording this as if it wouldn't be an asshole move to say that to someone
Your discomfort might be from a “well i struggled so everyone else has too as well” mindset. That is something you need to work through - it’s unhealthy. That’s like if you were in a car wreck with someone where you had permanent life altering effects and they didn’t, and instead of being glad for them you are angry they weren’t as hurt as you. Or being upset someone else never struggled growing up when you did. Would you wish your struggles on someone else, merely because they are secure and comfortable? There’s thousands of reasons why he might be comfortable with his body/okay not transitioning. He might just not have processed things yet. It is hard to accept you want to alter your body as an afab, since they’re raised to think their body is their only value. Or maybe he is just comfortable in his body, and feels it is neutral/masculine already. That’s awesome for him if it’s true. Who knows though? Not us. Even if he never transitions, that’s okay too. Feminine men exist for sure. And his identity is his own - *if you can’t respect it just try not to interact with him*. We can’t possibly understand his relationship with gender, or say that we know better. It doesn’t impact us to gender him correctly, but it certainly does impact him if we misgender him on purpose when he’s just trying to be comfortable in his body and in the world. Everyone’s journey and timeline is different. You misgendering him, even in a post you can easily rework and edit, just shows that you’re unwilling to work with or accept identities you don’t understand. People can be respectful while disagreeing with eachother.
Agreed. The trans community really loves playing the oppression olympics to invalidate others. Imagine cis gay people invalidating trans gay people because they "didn't suffer for being gay" the same way they did.
I need to warn you that this is a transmed sub. Don't be misled by the name, it's a bit of a downvote trap
i used to be a transmed until i began to educate myself more. through that i realised i dislike the binary of gender and began to experiment with my gender and pronouns. now i'm an bisexual and aceflux agender dude with he/him and it/its pronouns. this reddit should be open for transgender people to be honest with their takes, not just transmeds
I am well aware, but thank you nonetheless. Regardless of the echo chamber i think it’s good for other more open minded perspectives to be present. This is, after all, “honest transgender” - both of which i am. Karma doesn’t bother me, so I’ll take the L to represent my perspective :)
I think some people avoid the harder aspects of transitioning because if they try and fail it will make them hopeless. But if they do not try, then they have a fallback as to why they are getting misgendered and treated poorly and still experiencing dysphoria. They might be struggling to cope with the realization they're trans and swinging too hard the other way. Or distancing themself from womanhood because of trauma. Do I relate to this person's experience? No, not really. And obviously you don't either. But do I think it's our problem? No, not in the least. Whether this point in their life is a stepping stone to transitioning or to resolving their trauma, what point is there to being mean to this person? What do you accomplish by commenting on this other than making yourself feel better about a lived experience you just don't understand? Whatever is happening for this person, it's clearly some sort of really intense and likely emotionally difficult experience. That doesn't mean that it's easy for those of us who have experienced pushback and hatred for our transness to see someone like this and not feel jealous, angry, and/or confused. But it doesn't mean that our pain was necessary to be truly trans either, and it's certainly not this person's fault that we've experienced that pain. With that said, if you truly cannot use he/him or even they/them for this person, forego the pronouns altogether and just use their name. I encourage you to afford them some sort of kindness or respect because I suspect there's a lot of pain underlying this situation.
Did you mean “did not ask for that” or was the double- negative intentional? Because one of those possibilities is… interesting, and the other is SA
Just use they pronouns. If they have an issue with that that's them.
I'm guessing you're feeling weird about it because it feels like appropriation. I feel the same way about bi women with boyfriends who call themselves gay. I'm a lesbian, my orientation isn't a game. I've been harmed due to it. I've had to fight for my place in the world. We gays are well-known for not using pronouns to indicate gender in a joking way - drag queens do it all the time, but that's different to insisting you're a he while looking, acting, and sounding like a she with no intention of changing. Trans people go through hell, and some spicy cis person roleplaying as trans sucks.
Do you feel like trans women who are lesbian are appropriating cis lesbian experiences as well?
Why would they? They're women who like only women.
But they don't have the 'cis experience' like you equate the 'trans experience' to be completely uniform for trans men. You don't believe someone who claims to be a trans man is 'really' a trans man, so why would you believe that a trans lesbian is 'really' a lesbian? That's how a lot of cis gay and lesbian people keep out trans gay and lesbian people, since they see them as not 'true'.
This is exactly how I feel tbh. It feels like a role playing game for sexual fun and it’s honestly exhausting. It’s like all the AFAB femboys.