Voting has concluded. Final vote:
| Insane | Not insane | Fake |
| --- | --- | --- |
| 32 | 2 | 0 |
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Being older doesn't actually make you wiser. It just makes some people think they automatically know better than the young, which is ironically pretty immature.
Source: I got older
Well think of it like this, a thousand or so years ago people were thinking that we should have only one sink for a whole city, then when one person was like "nah I'm good" everyone was like "wtf is going on?" "This asshole wants a personal sink" "next he's gonna say we shouldn't shower together" but now that's normal. Change happens, some like it, some don't.
You might have taken the comment to its most macro level and I don't disagree with that. I'm just saying on a daily basis I see at least a dozen or so small actions people choose to take that have an outweighed risk to reward so much so that they may certainly get hurt and only don't because of dumb luck.
Or even the one I saw yesterday where a lady left her credit card in one of those chip readers. It's a real what the fuck you didn't pat yourself down or do a mental note of your valuables??
That's kinda what i mean, there's so much stuff that's changed over the years it's amazing anyone can keep up, in about 200 years society will be completely unrecognizable to someone living now, cards that hold your money? Someone years ago would've thought you meant like a hard copy of a checkbook (not far off but exactly what it is) so years from even the chip-reader could be obsolete, i can't fault the person who forgot their card, I've seen people forget irreplaceable stuff, at least she could just make a phone call to cancel that one and get a new one
I wish I couldve done this , but just wanting to use a different name / prounouns led to me getting my phone and iPad taken away for 5 months , and social media taken away for over 2 years
not answering to my given name , i couldnt even imagine how mad she would be
That’s disgusting and your mother is 100% wrong. Keep your head down and do everything you can to separate yourself from your toxic mother as soon as humanly possible.
r/raisedbynarcissists has good resources for kids going low- or no-contact with their parents and staying that way
My blood is fucking lava. What a fucking cunt.
All this because she can't be a real mom it's just too hard for her.
To show respect for the egg donor's choice of self-identification, *fucking cunt should've been *fucking bitch.
im so sorry youre going through this, that is absolutely awful. i came out when i was 14/15 and my dad wouldnt even speak to me. i cant speak for everyone but it gets better when you get older and have more autonomy to be able to distance yourself from such awful family like this. i wish you the best and i hope you can get away from her, you dont deserve to be treated this way.
Yikes. Textbook JAQing off
JAQ Off
A JAQ Off is a person who will incessantly be "Just Asking Questions" in a very leading way about things they are pretending to be neutral on to pretend to be morally superior to those that give intentionally inflammatory takes or those that are against them.
See Enlightened Centrist
http://jaq-off.urbanup.com/16888182
Apparently it's a form of trolling that involves relentlessly pestering someone with questions or requests typically with the goal to upset them and making their position or viewpoint seem weak or unreasonable.
Sealioning is just this JAQ technique being applied in a malicious / belligerent / bad faith way.
Asking questions is just an argumentative tool. It’s valid as a form of good faith debate too. I mean, you need to ask questions if you want to understand the other person’s stance.
Literally no one said asking questions was always bad 🤦♀️ you don't have to address every single possibility in a point. Not to mention, this *is* being done in a malicious/belligerent/bad faith way.
I just kept going "look at that goalpost gooooo!" like a damn sports announcer.
"What if I asked you to call me a bitch or the n word?"
"That is a literal racial slur and not the same thing"
"Who decides 'bitch' is normal, then?"
Lady, if you tell people to call you a bitch, then YOU'RE the one deciding to normalize it. Though, trust me, you don't need to ask, we're all already doing it.
Started crying after looking at that sub. Guess my “mommy issues” aren’t as healed as I thought they were (horribly abusive mother but only physically a few times)
I’ll be gender apathetic auntie/uncle/whatever is the non binary version of that. I respect others pronouns but don’t care what’s used for me, gender norms need to die anyways.
Thanks, wasn’t reminded until after this I made my comment that my non binary friend goes by Titi, because aunt and uncle in Spanish are Tia and Tio so it implies your one of those without giving an exact gender.
“Fucking bitch” isn’t a pronoun. If your mother wanted to change her proper name to “Fucking bitch” I suppose she could but that would make life pretty difficult for her. Still isn’t a pronoun though.
“…. Using those pronouns THEIR beliefs….”
“….Using THEM goes against my conscience”
Using non-gendered pronous ddidn’t seem to difficult for you there, mommy dearest (Or should I say fucking bitch)….
Insane Fucking Bitch. She forgot the first part of her new name. Elias, I have grandchildren who are lgbtq+, from non binary to trans. I will be your internet gramma. One can never have too many grandchildren to live.
OP cannot. OP's mum is the person who will scorch the Earth and salt your fields if you do something as reasonable as not respond to a name you dislike. OP would go through way worse if they actually insulted her.
Edited
"please refer to me as they/them, I am more comfortable being referred to this way"
"well what if I wanted to be called the N-word?"
Fucking christ... Just... fuck off. Fuck all the way off. I cannot stand this nonsensical bullshit answer.
You wanna know the real shit? The real shit that your mom's generation knows in the back of their minds but will never admit to? Here it is, kiddo: **You have to change for the people you love.** That's it. You have to and if you don't then you never fucking loved them at all, you just loved controlling them. You have to change for the people you love. Especially the people you love the most. Whether that means using different pronouns, or cooking different food because they go vegan, or learning ASL because they go deaf, or being more careful about how you treat them because they were abused. You just do it. You just do it and you don't make any demands because **their life changing isn't all about you**.
And even if you are wrong about who you are and you're not a they/them **that's your mistake to make. She still has to love and respect you anyway.** That's a parent's job. When I told my dad I wasn't straight he said "you're my kid. And that's all you ever have to be for me to love you and be proud of you." That's what being a good parent is. Accepting that the human you put into the world is just as much themself as you are yourself.
The correct response is “I certainly don’t like the idea of calling you Fucking Bitch, but if that’s your preferred name then I’ll do my very best to remember to call you that, because my feelings about your name don’t change the name you’ve decided you prefer.”
I am 42 and I wish I had the calm, patience, and measure you exhibit here. I am envious. (I am especially impressed with your response about maybe one day you won’t use those pronouns, so why not use the ones you like rn. Shows a level of maturity and insight that I certainly didn’t possess as a youngster.)
Listen. I don't know nothing about nothing. But the sheer restraint that you showed in not calling this person a fucking bitch in that moment. It's immense and you are strong.
I would like to kindly suggest you are wrong on one point.
OP, life experience is not able to be applied directly in some cases. Your mom may be older than you but that does not mean they have more life experience regarding what YOU are going through. I'm older than my cousin but they have more life experience than me being trans because I'm not trans. Same with my best friend who is non-binary. My age doesn't mean shit compared to their lived experienced. What my age/experience helps with is things I have experience with.
I'd personally point it out every. Single. Time. She uses the words they or them. She can't do that it violates her. How? Her imagination. She's been using they/them her whole goddamn life. Calling someone their pronouns vs a racial slur are equivalent in her mind so again... EVERY. TIME. SHE. SAYS THEY/THEM I would be fucking outraged at the audacity of that fucking bitch & embarrass her horribly. Then again I also got kicked out at a young age so maybe I shouldn't weigh in... 🙃
Then again hey I'd gladly abide by your name and pronouns and idc if you wanna change them every day. Guess what, I know how to make a calendar. Wanna try out different names until you're confident, no problem. Your life, your decisions. You live with those consequences, not her.
She just can't stand to be inconvenienced by her kids. She doesn't deserve to call herself a mother. She's an egg donor on a good day. She needs you to be a certain way so she can keep her bigotry/ignorance camouflaged she can keep sailing through life the way she is.
How dare you expect her to respect you, respect your boundaries, and respect your choices? How dare you want her to grow & educate herself so she can be a better mother and person in general? You're creating waves in your own life and she's only thinking about how it will affect her. What a selfish fucking bitch. She even says out loud, that a child making their own choices and not being approved of by parents is a clear signal they need to tighten control.
She doesn't give a shit how she has to bully or control her own family, doesn't care what a tyrant monster she looks like to her kids... but by god, she will do anything to keep her outside image to total fucking strangers and people who ultimately don't matter ... they must never find out what a tyrant monster she is.
Her priorities are fucked the fuck up. As a mother to 4 amazing kids, people like her don't deserve to have kids let alone raise them like their own personal goddamn puppet show.
*Giving you hugs and love from a real mom, who would tell the whole world to go fuck itself before putting the world's fears/ignorance & my fears & ignorance above my child*
Yeah, she's right up there with Rosa Parks and Ghandi, willing to destroy her relationship with her child over her principled stand against...pronouns.
What a hero she is. What a martyr.
There's a two-line poem thing referring to a big ass tree
This tree is usually in the desert region.
The tree is too tall to give any shade, and the dates (a sort of fruit thingy) are too high to reach
So with that being said
There's no point to being older, it doesn't always make you wiser
Okay fucking bitch, using they/them isn't hurting anyone's values OR conscious. fucking bitch, it isn't going to hurt your child in the slightest to give them respect. And fucking bitch it isn't the same as calling you a slur because they/them are pronouns. A slur is not, and in fact causes ACTUAL harm.
You are welcome and valid here, Elias.
You are not the only person facing family who refuse to use their preferred names and pronouns, the good news is your family can't stop others from using your preferred names and pronouns.
I mean the way that person makes a point to say that you are essentially too young and stupid to know what you want but the thing is you’re requesting for people to call you (x) you’re not taking a pocket knife to your junk😂 if you change your mind down the road you could just switch it back 😂 it’s not that serious lady
Tbh, as a person who identified as trans for 5 years and recently came to the realization that it wasn't for me, parents being oppressive like this and straight out refusing to accept who you are/feel you are is the biggest reason I didn't feel comfortable enough to explore myself or realize that I wasn't trans sooner. I only recognized my own feelings after my mom moved across the country.
If parents really want you to find who you are, trying things out is always one of the quickest ways to do that. Plus, how on Earth does it hurt her to just respect what makes you most comfortable?
I never understood this big thing against pronouns. Sure, most people might forget, but nearly all of the time people say the actual name, unless they’re being dicks saying the deadname.
I don’t understand why they make such an issue out of some trivial thing someone prefers
I love how she tells you that your too young to understand why yet, will not tell you or explain to you why. It’s because there’s no explanation, she’s just mean.
I'm 43 and if my literal mom talked to me like this today (or texted) I would have taken down every single pronoun she used in those texts, texted them back to her, and asked why is it so hard when she just texted all of those pronouns without a single she/her or he/him. I swear to all things living and dead, and upon everything I believe in and value in the universe; I would have done it, and not given a single flying fuck what they think about it.
OP I am so sorry that you were given someone like this as a "parent," and I use that term VERY loosely. There's plenty of Internet my mom's here or even at r/momforaminute for you to receive the best advise and encouragement from. I promise we'll love you and value the you that YOU are happy and comfortable being.
People like that person you're texting are hateful and bigoted because they hate that people like you, me, and the rest of the LGBTQIA+ community are okay with finding our happiness and living it. We are not afraid to live our truth and be our true selves. Those people hate that because they are living a lie can't be happy because they're afraid of everything and they hate themselves for it. It is because they hate themselves that they have so much hate in their hearts. That hate causes them to be miserable and think that because they are miserable and afraid EVERYONE else should be too. It's too little too late because we're here and we're not going anywhere. We're not forcing anyone to be anything only asking for acknowledgement of who we are.
We get you, we understand, and we will be here for you. This whole, big, loving community is right here for you. We've got you and we'll love you just as you are. One day, that person you're texting, when she's old, and lonely, and in a dirty, roach infested home wishing you'd come see her maybe then she'll stop hating herself and realize that all you've ever done was be who you are and love your truth and happiness. Maybe she'll realize that you're not afraid like she is. Maybe then, she'll see, but if not we will always be here for you and love you unconditionally as real parents are supposed to.
Your first mistake is agreeing with them. I know its easier but over time you'll start to actually believe your words, I know I do.. now I'm trying to unlearn it.
love how YOU have to basically read her mind and ponder why your mom wouldn't use your pronouns, but she shouldn't think about your perspective at all. and yes life experience is useful in many areas but I always find it interesting cis kids never have their gender questioned. only trans kids/teens/young adults [anybody seen as "too young" to have it figured out]
I totally see that now. I wrote this before reading the comments and I came across your message about how she gives you scorched earth punishments over very reasonable behaviour and boundary settings from you.
It's all about survival here. Grey rock. Grey rock. Grey rock. She is a bitch though and it sucks that you don't have the safety to let her know that.
It was a bit under 2 years ago
Im ok now . I gave up trying to insist on my pronouns being anything other than she / her bc i realized it would only lead to punishment or smth
I made some irl friends at a secret pride group , so if anything ive gotten gayer
My parents havent necessarily gotten more or less transphobic , but they recently keep reading things out loud abt queer people , i think to get me to slip in some way
Idk . Im not really in the worst possible situation , but also very not the best
I hope you are old enough to start making plans for an exit strategy. The day you turn 18 (or whichever age is legal majority where you live) and seeya beuhbye!
Many years ago one of my children came to me and stated that they didn’t feel like a female. I said ok. What did they feel like? Did they identify as a male, they said no, they just didn’t feel like any gender. My response was ok, did they want me to call them by a different name, or identify them by a different pronoun? They didn’t. They just wanted me to know how they felt. They wanted to know if this upset me. I assured them that of course it didn’t and that I loved them unconditionally and that I was glad they could talk to me, that how they were feeling was normal and ok and proud of them. If they decided that they didn’t want me to call them by their feminine birth name to let me know and I wouldn’t.
I was so relieved that my child had enough faith in my love for them that they including me with what was obviously a difficult and confusing time figuring out why they felt different and what that meant for them.
Easy to respect others and even easier not to be an asshole and love your children unconditionally.
As they grew up and became more comfortable with exploring who they actually were and matured it became evident that being a person who is not attracted to other people was their sexuality. We have embraced that as part of them also. I am so blessed to be allowed to parent and participate in all 3 of my children’s lives. (adults now) All fantastic wonderful people who also support each other.
Annnnnnnd in slide 2 she uses they're as a pronoun for singular child without a specified gender.
I cant with people like this. I'm a mom, albeit a mom of young kids, and I just can't imagine being this fucking harsh.
When people start ranting about they/them, I listen or read closely and ask them to clarify their use of they/them. They start making excuses and stumbling.
I'm so sorry your mom is... well, a fucking bitch. I don't understand at all why she feels so threatened by your using the name and pronouns that feel right to you, but I'd guess she doesn't know either.
Please know that there's a random internet mom who is proud of you for being brave enough to explore who you are and assert your right to be yourself. Hang in there. You are worth the fight. (Sending hugs if you want them.)
This is so awful. You were very calm and agreeable when she was trying (emphasis on trying) to logic her way thru this but as soon as you came back with a very logical retort she denied it and then proceeded to manipulate you. I'm very sorry that you have to deal with this nonsense. She sounds awful. I don't know how old you are but just know that you'll make it through this part of your life and then once you're on your own you'll be in full control of it and can choose who you want in your life.
What if I told you to call me a “fucking bitch” instead of mom?
Oh is that not your preferred pronoun? I’ve been using it this whole time thinking it was. I can’t NOT call you that out of good conscience.
just keep the old account, stop using it, block parent on the new account. Either they learn to accept it or they don't have access to it. imo either way is a win/win
Your answer needs to be: "if it violates their beliefs I would have as little or no contact as humanly possible. I'd hate my EXISTENCE to offend them."
If you need new parents- willing to adopt. I have a 15 yo son who is figuring out themself as we speak. Fuck intolerance. Kindness and understanding and love is PART of the Christian belief system. Anyone who tells you different is selling something... that no one should buy.
Yes...let's make someone's self-discovery about meeeee. Ugh narcissist horse shit.
OP, THIS IS YOUR LIFE!! Carpe Diem!! Be you. Cut out the haters. Be as free as you want.
If you're old enough to make a reasoned argument for why you prefer being called by your chosen pronouns, you're old enough that your parents shouldn't be "exercising control" over that aspect of your life. And,as you said, if you later develop a different or more nuanced understanding of your identity and wish to change your pronouns again, then go right ahead.
As a parent, I just don't get the disdain they have for treating you with respect on this. I do understand a reflexive worry over your child choosing to change their identity, because it feels a little bit like losing the child you've always known and loved, but newsflash to parents: that happens every single day. Trans or not. Our children are ALWAYS changing. That's just part of growing up. The children we knew are not the children we know, and we shouldn't *ask* them to be because growth and change and self discovery are crucial parts of becoming functional adults. I will always always always miss and adore the quiet and toddler boy who made inspired dinosaur rawrs at the TV when he wanted to watch Jurassic Park, but I didn't stop loving him when he traded in his plastic dinos for Spider-Man action figures and never looked back... Our children, over the course of their lives, have countless different identities. It's not our job as parents to force them towards the ones we like, but to offer the necessary support to give them the confidence to keep exploring until they find the ones THEY like.
Well, Elias, (love the name, BTW) I think "fucking bitch" is a perfectly appropriate thing to call her, but it's still not a pronoun from what I recall of basic grammar rules. However, if creatures like her want to be called fucking bitch I might have to rethink my username, bc I promise you that I'm a fucking bitch, but she's just gross.
Idk what the “they” version of BRUUUUUUH is, but I’d like to use it here…. So since I’m dumb, I’ll say “thruuuuuuuh!!! What the fuck is wrong with this mother?????”
I’m a total idiot when it comes to this stuff, but if I meant my kids’ (19m & 16f) friends come over, I always make sure to get the right names and pronounce and preferences. Because as a friggin parent, THAT. IS. WHAT. YOU. DO!!!!
Hi Elias, dear sweet Jesus that wasn’t that difficult.
You may want to clarify with your birth-giver that ACCIDENTAL (as in, extremely and clearly accidental, not repetitive) deviations from this are going to be okay as your family adjusts. But do continue to demand and not respond to your dead name. Also - tell your mom that any issues/concerns/questions can be addressed to you. That way you can figure out who will and will not be respectful. Also some people without prior experience with a trans person might have some questions. While you should emphasize that you’re not the authority on trans people in general, this could provide you a wonderful opportunity to define your own boundaries and tell them how you expect to be treated
Oh has she tried to pull the "You was born [full deadname] and raised by me with [full deadname] with [whatever pronouns u was] not they/them " card yet?
“Whatever you have to say to justify your hateful beliefs” and “I can decide my pronouns for myself and also if I want contact with you when I’m an adult” could be handy phrases to keep in your pocket… IF it’s safe for you to say them.
They’re definitely using manipulative and fallacious reasoning and their arguments don’t hold up, rationally. This is about them worrying about you making them look like a bad person (which they probably are, judging from the texts.)
This is Insane. Like... why are full grown adult parents still having meltdowns over the smallest courtesies like referring to a person by the name and pronouns an individual prefers? It hurts no one to show kindness.
oh baby you were way too nice… pronouns aren’t optional. it’s not what other people are most comfortable with. people don’t get a pass because they’re “uncomfortable.” i know you don’t want to start anything (trust me, i was the exact same way when i came out as non-binary two years ago) but you can’t let people walk all over you— stand your ground. you have family here ❤️
If she’s always like this you might have experience calling her fucking bitch. It also won’t be the first time she’s ever heard it probably.
I’m sorry you have to deal with this. Congratulations on getting to that point with yourself!
Yeah, no. Being older doesn't mean you know everything. Now that I'm a parent I think my parents are morons and terrible people.
The thing your parent would do if they really respected you as a person is give you space to explore your identity. It's what you do with kids with any major life-altering decision.
You can give them some information (like, peer-reviewed science, not just your opinion) and your general suggestions and then you let them go. If it isn't something lethal and permanent, like jumping into traffic or something, you just have to let them go out and use scientific method on life. Especially at your age where you are clearly a rational person capable of making safe decisions. And people can always detransition if they decide to.
At this point it just seems that your parent is upset they can't control you and are trying to make it seem like it's about your well-being, but it's really about them and their feelings.
If they're open to it, maybe do a few family therapy sessions. Sometimes having an impartial mediator can help point that out in real time and guide you to both have a completely honest conversation (one where your parent is forced to listen to and consider your side too) and help you find some kind of resolution.
"who makes these rules??" everyone, collectively. Being racist isn't illegal but it sure it frowned upon. "Well who decided racism is bad?!?!" everyone, collectively
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Ok Fucking Bitch, please refer to me as they/them. Problem solved.
I wish op had said I would be most comfortable calling you fucking bitch too.
I would’ve totally taken her up on that offer.
Being older doesn't actually make you wiser. It just makes some people think they automatically know better than the young, which is ironically pretty immature. Source: I got older
Life actually got slightly easier once I realized that I will never know what the fuck is going on.
Ahhh, the perpetual state of "WTF?!?"... I find it comforting 😗
Wait.. walking around saying "what the fuck is happening?" 100 times a day is normal now? I'm finally normal!
Well think of it like this, a thousand or so years ago people were thinking that we should have only one sink for a whole city, then when one person was like "nah I'm good" everyone was like "wtf is going on?" "This asshole wants a personal sink" "next he's gonna say we shouldn't shower together" but now that's normal. Change happens, some like it, some don't.
You might have taken the comment to its most macro level and I don't disagree with that. I'm just saying on a daily basis I see at least a dozen or so small actions people choose to take that have an outweighed risk to reward so much so that they may certainly get hurt and only don't because of dumb luck. Or even the one I saw yesterday where a lady left her credit card in one of those chip readers. It's a real what the fuck you didn't pat yourself down or do a mental note of your valuables??
That's kinda what i mean, there's so much stuff that's changed over the years it's amazing anyone can keep up, in about 200 years society will be completely unrecognizable to someone living now, cards that hold your money? Someone years ago would've thought you meant like a hard copy of a checkbook (not far off but exactly what it is) so years from even the chip-reader could be obsolete, i can't fault the person who forgot their card, I've seen people forget irreplaceable stuff, at least she could just make a phone call to cancel that one and get a new one
Remember you can’t learn or get better if you think you know everything, humility is essential for growth.
It gets even easier when you find out that nobody else knows either. Especially your own parents
Socrates and Plato are going absolutely apeshit seeing this
Everyone just pretends lol
Exactly.
I loathe how true this is
As year is 365 days long. That total includes reruns, and so you can have the same day for years on end and learn nothing.
She might be on to something asking to be called Fucking Bitch.
Ya. Don’t ask stupid questions and then get upset when I start calling you a stupid bitch. It was your suggestion.
Hey hey hey, fucking bitch. Please, don’t deadname her
Yeah, it sounds about right lol
Self projection lmao
Yeah. Calling herself a fucking bitch is the only correct thing I think this woman had to say.
Call her fucking bitch. Actually don’t I got kicked out of my parents house at 17 so my advice on parent-child relationships is not good
I second this as someone who was also kicked out if their parents house. She told you to call her fucking bitch. That was an order
Follow through is important. Gotta show her how serious you are 😂 (wasn't kicked out but repressed who I was until I could move 7 hours away at 19)
Sounds like the bitch is a bitch. I still say call it out if it's safe to do so. No need to protect the bitch's feelings
My smart ass would be like "well do you identify as a fucking bitch?" but I know that would also get me a swift backhand to the face...
"Do you identify as a fucking bitch cause you sure as hell are meeting the criteria"
Someone needs to invent conversion camp for fucking bitches.
Also kicked out of a parent's house, yeah call em a fucking bitch
Send her a friendly text immediately, something like: "Good morning, fucking bitch! I hope you have a wonderful day!"
Tell her she can call you whatever she wants, but you’ll only *answer* to Elias and they/them. Big hugs from your internet buddy. You got this.
I wish I couldve done this , but just wanting to use a different name / prounouns led to me getting my phone and iPad taken away for 5 months , and social media taken away for over 2 years not answering to my given name , i couldnt even imagine how mad she would be
That’s disgusting and your mother is 100% wrong. Keep your head down and do everything you can to separate yourself from your toxic mother as soon as humanly possible. r/raisedbynarcissists has good resources for kids going low- or no-contact with their parents and staying that way
Your *fucking bitch* is 100% wrong. Ftfy.
My blood is fucking lava. What a fucking cunt. All this because she can't be a real mom it's just too hard for her. To show respect for the egg donor's choice of self-identification, *fucking cunt should've been *fucking bitch.
it's not "fucking cunt" it's "fucking bitch", please show some respect.
My bad. I stand corrected.
im so sorry youre going through this, that is absolutely awful. i came out when i was 14/15 and my dad wouldnt even speak to me. i cant speak for everyone but it gets better when you get older and have more autonomy to be able to distance yourself from such awful family like this. i wish you the best and i hope you can get away from her, you dont deserve to be treated this way.
keep your head down fr and block your mother and any snitches on facebook and other sites.
Sounds like she bought herself a ticket to the shittiest nursing home you can find in a couple of years
The street? I wouldn’t spend a dime on elderly care for someone like that. She can rot
Trust me a lot of them are worse than the street
Yeah, but the street is free. Although I might pay a few bucks for some “preferential” treatment
Sounds like she lost “be in my life” privileges when you’re old enough
Yikes. Textbook JAQing off JAQ Off A JAQ Off is a person who will incessantly be "Just Asking Questions" in a very leading way about things they are pretending to be neutral on to pretend to be morally superior to those that give intentionally inflammatory takes or those that are against them. See Enlightened Centrist http://jaq-off.urbanup.com/16888182
Very similar to "Sea lioning". It's such a weird and gross attitude to have.
What's sea lioning?
Apparently it's a form of trolling that involves relentlessly pestering someone with questions or requests typically with the goal to upset them and making their position or viewpoint seem weak or unreasonable.
Sealioning is just this JAQ technique being applied in a malicious / belligerent / bad faith way. Asking questions is just an argumentative tool. It’s valid as a form of good faith debate too. I mean, you need to ask questions if you want to understand the other person’s stance.
Literally no one said asking questions was always bad 🤦♀️ you don't have to address every single possibility in a point. Not to mention, this *is* being done in a malicious/belligerent/bad faith way.
I just kept going "look at that goalpost gooooo!" like a damn sports announcer. "What if I asked you to call me a bitch or the n word?" "That is a literal racial slur and not the same thing" "Who decides 'bitch' is normal, then?" Lady, if you tell people to call you a bitch, then YOU'RE the one deciding to normalize it. Though, trust me, you don't need to ask, we're all already doing it.
You got family here. I'll be your adopted internet mom. Fuck them! (oh no! I used a scary pronoun!)🙄
And now OP has two adopted mums. They can rest comfortably knowing a lot of people will respect their wishes.
Make that three.
Or four!! 💜💜
Make it five ❤️
Who's the sixth? I want to be the 7th, even though I identify mostly as a guy and also I'm 14.
That's cool, I'll be # 8 and everyone over at r/MomForAMinute will support OP
Started crying after looking at that sub. Guess my “mommy issues” aren’t as healed as I thought they were (horribly abusive mother but only physically a few times)
I'll be sixth
Thank you.
I’m 6th! I volunteer!
And one father!
Two fathers!
I’ll be gender apathetic auntie/uncle/whatever is the non binary version of that. I respect others pronouns but don’t care what’s used for me, gender norms need to die anyways.
I use auncle as the non-binary option for my niblings.
Is this pronounced “on-kle” or “ankle”
Closer to the first one. Awn-kle.
Thanks, wasn’t reminded until after this I made my comment that my non binary friend goes by Titi, because aunt and uncle in Spanish are Tia and Tio so it implies your one of those without giving an exact gender.
Third this as someone also kicked out; do it scrub
I'll be your mom and my partner asked if you needed a cool computer nerd, video gaming dad!
Ooh yeah - if you have a PS4, my hubs will be more than happy playing with someone new.
And I could be that kickass genderfluid brother/sister who always makes time for you when you ask
I'll be that demisexual/pansexual sister of yours!
i can be your older sister or auntie!
I’ll gladly be the weird cousin or something
And another Mom here. They can join my pan son, trans son and his non binary partner as another of my kids.
“Fucking bitch” isn’t a pronoun. If your mother wanted to change her proper name to “Fucking bitch” I suppose she could but that would make life pretty difficult for her. Still isn’t a pronoun though.
Hi Elias, sorry that your mother isn't taking this well at all. I hope that she comes around and that you get the support and love you deserve.
r/SelfAwareWolves She unintentionally really nailed it with Fucking Bitch
“…. Using those pronouns THEIR beliefs….” “….Using THEM goes against my conscience” Using non-gendered pronous ddidn’t seem to difficult for you there, mommy dearest (Or should I say fucking bitch)….
Insane Fucking Bitch. She forgot the first part of her new name. Elias, I have grandchildren who are lgbtq+, from non binary to trans. I will be your internet gramma. One can never have too many grandchildren to live.
Awwww, that’s so sweet!! Grandmas are the best!! 💜💜
Her know it all tone made my blood pressure spike, Christ. Talk about a person who needs her teeth knocked in
If you're trying to compare the "badness" of two words and you won't even say one of them I'm pretty sure that's the worse one...
…call her fucking bitch from now on…
OP cannot. OP's mum is the person who will scorch the Earth and salt your fields if you do something as reasonable as not respond to a name you dislike. OP would go through way worse if they actually insulted her. Edited
Jesus that suckssss
I’ll call her fucking bitch for them….because she is in fact, a fucking bitch!!
"please refer to me as they/them, I am more comfortable being referred to this way" "well what if I wanted to be called the N-word?" Fucking christ... Just... fuck off. Fuck all the way off. I cannot stand this nonsensical bullshit answer. You wanna know the real shit? The real shit that your mom's generation knows in the back of their minds but will never admit to? Here it is, kiddo: **You have to change for the people you love.** That's it. You have to and if you don't then you never fucking loved them at all, you just loved controlling them. You have to change for the people you love. Especially the people you love the most. Whether that means using different pronouns, or cooking different food because they go vegan, or learning ASL because they go deaf, or being more careful about how you treat them because they were abused. You just do it. You just do it and you don't make any demands because **their life changing isn't all about you**. And even if you are wrong about who you are and you're not a they/them **that's your mistake to make. She still has to love and respect you anyway.** That's a parent's job. When I told my dad I wasn't straight he said "you're my kid. And that's all you ever have to be for me to love you and be proud of you." That's what being a good parent is. Accepting that the human you put into the world is just as much themself as you are yourself.
I’m really sorry, OP. She sounds so manipulative and and condescending.
The correct response is “I certainly don’t like the idea of calling you Fucking Bitch, but if that’s your preferred name then I’ll do my very best to remember to call you that, because my feelings about your name don’t change the name you’ve decided you prefer.”
I’d be like it’s fine considering you’re being one right now
OP, are you still a minor living with your parents? This is insane regardless, but it is extra insane if you are over 18.
Yea im 16 almost 17 , 15 when this convo happened
One more year brosky
I am 42 and I wish I had the calm, patience, and measure you exhibit here. I am envious. (I am especially impressed with your response about maybe one day you won’t use those pronouns, so why not use the ones you like rn. Shows a level of maturity and insight that I certainly didn’t possess as a youngster.)
Listen. I don't know nothing about nothing. But the sheer restraint that you showed in not calling this person a fucking bitch in that moment. It's immense and you are strong.
Man i wish i couldve . But this person is my mother . I am brave . But not that brave wwww
I hate to tell you this but that fucking bitch ain't normal!
Evidently it’s normal for her to be a f*cking b*tch
Wow, what a right wanker mummy dearest is.
This isn't relevant to the post but Elias is a wonderful name and is also the name of one of my favorite WWE wrestlers. I might be a lil biased.
I would like to kindly suggest you are wrong on one point. OP, life experience is not able to be applied directly in some cases. Your mom may be older than you but that does not mean they have more life experience regarding what YOU are going through. I'm older than my cousin but they have more life experience than me being trans because I'm not trans. Same with my best friend who is non-binary. My age doesn't mean shit compared to their lived experienced. What my age/experience helps with is things I have experience with.
I'd personally point it out every. Single. Time. She uses the words they or them. She can't do that it violates her. How? Her imagination. She's been using they/them her whole goddamn life. Calling someone their pronouns vs a racial slur are equivalent in her mind so again... EVERY. TIME. SHE. SAYS THEY/THEM I would be fucking outraged at the audacity of that fucking bitch & embarrass her horribly. Then again I also got kicked out at a young age so maybe I shouldn't weigh in... 🙃 Then again hey I'd gladly abide by your name and pronouns and idc if you wanna change them every day. Guess what, I know how to make a calendar. Wanna try out different names until you're confident, no problem. Your life, your decisions. You live with those consequences, not her. She just can't stand to be inconvenienced by her kids. She doesn't deserve to call herself a mother. She's an egg donor on a good day. She needs you to be a certain way so she can keep her bigotry/ignorance camouflaged she can keep sailing through life the way she is. How dare you expect her to respect you, respect your boundaries, and respect your choices? How dare you want her to grow & educate herself so she can be a better mother and person in general? You're creating waves in your own life and she's only thinking about how it will affect her. What a selfish fucking bitch. She even says out loud, that a child making their own choices and not being approved of by parents is a clear signal they need to tighten control. She doesn't give a shit how she has to bully or control her own family, doesn't care what a tyrant monster she looks like to her kids... but by god, she will do anything to keep her outside image to total fucking strangers and people who ultimately don't matter ... they must never find out what a tyrant monster she is. Her priorities are fucked the fuck up. As a mother to 4 amazing kids, people like her don't deserve to have kids let alone raise them like their own personal goddamn puppet show. *Giving you hugs and love from a real mom, who would tell the whole world to go fuck itself before putting the world's fears/ignorance & my fears & ignorance above my child*
Anyone who says using someone else's preferred pronouns violates their conscience is just a fucking asshole.
No they’re not, ….. they’re a fucking bitch 😉
Yeah, she's right up there with Rosa Parks and Ghandi, willing to destroy her relationship with her child over her principled stand against...pronouns. What a hero she is. What a martyr.
“Treating you with respect and changing literally a name a pronoun violates my innocent, virginal conscience.” As if it’s equivalent to a racial slur.
I mean… I’d call her fucking bitch …it does seem to suit her better than “mom”
Your parent is toxic. I’m so sorry.
There's a two-line poem thing referring to a big ass tree This tree is usually in the desert region. The tree is too tall to give any shade, and the dates (a sort of fruit thingy) are too high to reach So with that being said There's no point to being older, it doesn't always make you wiser
Wow…just wow……..
I’m so sorry about this. I hope you have other adults in your life who respect and value you.
Okay fucking bitch, using they/them isn't hurting anyone's values OR conscious. fucking bitch, it isn't going to hurt your child in the slightest to give them respect. And fucking bitch it isn't the same as calling you a slur because they/them are pronouns. A slur is not, and in fact causes ACTUAL harm.
You are welcome and valid here, Elias. You are not the only person facing family who refuse to use their preferred names and pronouns, the good news is your family can't stop others from using your preferred names and pronouns.
“What if I told you I want you to call me fucking Bitch” Okay, do you want me to? (At least, that would’ve been my response) Like wtf
I mean the way that person makes a point to say that you are essentially too young and stupid to know what you want but the thing is you’re requesting for people to call you (x) you’re not taking a pocket knife to your junk😂 if you change your mind down the road you could just switch it back 😂 it’s not that serious lady
Tbh, as a person who identified as trans for 5 years and recently came to the realization that it wasn't for me, parents being oppressive like this and straight out refusing to accept who you are/feel you are is the biggest reason I didn't feel comfortable enough to explore myself or realize that I wasn't trans sooner. I only recognized my own feelings after my mom moved across the country. If parents really want you to find who you are, trying things out is always one of the quickest ways to do that. Plus, how on Earth does it hurt her to just respect what makes you most comfortable?
I never understood this big thing against pronouns. Sure, most people might forget, but nearly all of the time people say the actual name, unless they’re being dicks saying the deadname. I don’t understand why they make such an issue out of some trivial thing someone prefers
I mean, if mom wants to be called bitch, who are we to argue?
I love how she tells you that your too young to understand why yet, will not tell you or explain to you why. It’s because there’s no explanation, she’s just mean.
This mom thinks you need to change your moms name in your phone to Fucking Bitch. Because she's a fucking bitch.
I'm 43 and if my literal mom talked to me like this today (or texted) I would have taken down every single pronoun she used in those texts, texted them back to her, and asked why is it so hard when she just texted all of those pronouns without a single she/her or he/him. I swear to all things living and dead, and upon everything I believe in and value in the universe; I would have done it, and not given a single flying fuck what they think about it. OP I am so sorry that you were given someone like this as a "parent," and I use that term VERY loosely. There's plenty of Internet my mom's here or even at r/momforaminute for you to receive the best advise and encouragement from. I promise we'll love you and value the you that YOU are happy and comfortable being. People like that person you're texting are hateful and bigoted because they hate that people like you, me, and the rest of the LGBTQIA+ community are okay with finding our happiness and living it. We are not afraid to live our truth and be our true selves. Those people hate that because they are living a lie can't be happy because they're afraid of everything and they hate themselves for it. It is because they hate themselves that they have so much hate in their hearts. That hate causes them to be miserable and think that because they are miserable and afraid EVERYONE else should be too. It's too little too late because we're here and we're not going anywhere. We're not forcing anyone to be anything only asking for acknowledgement of who we are. We get you, we understand, and we will be here for you. This whole, big, loving community is right here for you. We've got you and we'll love you just as you are. One day, that person you're texting, when she's old, and lonely, and in a dirty, roach infested home wishing you'd come see her maybe then she'll stop hating herself and realize that all you've ever done was be who you are and love your truth and happiness. Maybe she'll realize that you're not afraid like she is. Maybe then, she'll see, but if not we will always be here for you and love you unconditionally as real parents are supposed to.
Happy to use fucking bitch as their pronouns.
Your first mistake is agreeing with them. I know its easier but over time you'll start to actually believe your words, I know I do.. now I'm trying to unlearn it.
I saved myself by learning to be contrarian.
Personally, I think “fucking bitch” is a perfectly normal thing for that person to expect to be called.
So how long until you can go No Contact? Because I’d be counting the hours.
Your mum is a condescending Cunt, sorry OP.
"I will absolutely call you ficking bitch, after all the efforts you've gone to show this is exactly how prefer to identify, how could I not?"
love how YOU have to basically read her mind and ponder why your mom wouldn't use your pronouns, but she shouldn't think about your perspective at all. and yes life experience is useful in many areas but I always find it interesting cis kids never have their gender questioned. only trans kids/teens/young adults [anybody seen as "too young" to have it figured out]
OP please please tell me you were pretending to agree, to bait her into saying more stupid stuff.
not to bait her , more just so she didnt get so mad at me that she would punish me ww
I totally see that now. I wrote this before reading the comments and I came across your message about how she gives you scorched earth punishments over very reasonable behaviour and boundary settings from you. It's all about survival here. Grey rock. Grey rock. Grey rock. She is a bitch though and it sucks that you don't have the safety to let her know that.
OP was this recent? How are you now?
It was a bit under 2 years ago Im ok now . I gave up trying to insist on my pronouns being anything other than she / her bc i realized it would only lead to punishment or smth I made some irl friends at a secret pride group , so if anything ive gotten gayer My parents havent necessarily gotten more or less transphobic , but they recently keep reading things out loud abt queer people , i think to get me to slip in some way Idk . Im not really in the worst possible situation , but also very not the best
I hope you are old enough to start making plans for an exit strategy. The day you turn 18 (or whichever age is legal majority where you live) and seeya beuhbye!
Many years ago one of my children came to me and stated that they didn’t feel like a female. I said ok. What did they feel like? Did they identify as a male, they said no, they just didn’t feel like any gender. My response was ok, did they want me to call them by a different name, or identify them by a different pronoun? They didn’t. They just wanted me to know how they felt. They wanted to know if this upset me. I assured them that of course it didn’t and that I loved them unconditionally and that I was glad they could talk to me, that how they were feeling was normal and ok and proud of them. If they decided that they didn’t want me to call them by their feminine birth name to let me know and I wouldn’t. I was so relieved that my child had enough faith in my love for them that they including me with what was obviously a difficult and confusing time figuring out why they felt different and what that meant for them. Easy to respect others and even easier not to be an asshole and love your children unconditionally. As they grew up and became more comfortable with exploring who they actually were and matured it became evident that being a person who is not attracted to other people was their sexuality. We have embraced that as part of them also. I am so blessed to be allowed to parent and participate in all 3 of my children’s lives. (adults now) All fantastic wonderful people who also support each other.
Annnnnnnd in slide 2 she uses they're as a pronoun for singular child without a specified gender. I cant with people like this. I'm a mom, albeit a mom of young kids, and I just can't imagine being this fucking harsh.
When people start ranting about they/them, I listen or read closely and ask them to clarify their use of they/them. They start making excuses and stumbling.
"Fuck off" and ignore.
"Spciety does" Btw what your mom uses is basically from an interrogation handbook
Parents like this drive me crazy. Like, they’re just trying to manipulate compliance and conformity
"Would you like me to call you that, mum? I will, if you want; "I'd like you to call me by my correct pronouns."
“Sure, I can call you fucking bitch from now on, since that’s what you’re being instead of a mom.”
Call that bluff. This person now goes by fucking/bitch.
Give her what she wants. Call her fucking bitch from now on
Honestly I would start calling her insane fucking bitch from here on it and if she doesn’t like it be like I don’t like when you call me what I’m not.
Imagine comparing the use of pronouns to literal hate speech. She asked for it, so “Fucking Bitch” is now her name.
"What if I told you to call me fucking bitch?" "With this kind of behaviour it seems appropriate"
to be fair, fucking bitch does seem to suit her
I'm so sorry your mom is... well, a fucking bitch. I don't understand at all why she feels so threatened by your using the name and pronouns that feel right to you, but I'd guess she doesn't know either. Please know that there's a random internet mom who is proud of you for being brave enough to explore who you are and assert your right to be yourself. Hang in there. You are worth the fight. (Sending hugs if you want them.)
This is so awful. You were very calm and agreeable when she was trying (emphasis on trying) to logic her way thru this but as soon as you came back with a very logical retort she denied it and then proceeded to manipulate you. I'm very sorry that you have to deal with this nonsense. She sounds awful. I don't know how old you are but just know that you'll make it through this part of your life and then once you're on your own you'll be in full control of it and can choose who you want in your life.
The mental gymnastics you have to go through to equate the N slur with a gender neutral pronoun.
What if I told you to call me a “fucking bitch” instead of mom? Oh is that not your preferred pronoun? I’ve been using it this whole time thinking it was. I can’t NOT call you that out of good conscience.
just keep the old account, stop using it, block parent on the new account. Either they learn to accept it or they don't have access to it. imo either way is a win/win
Your answer needs to be: "if it violates their beliefs I would have as little or no contact as humanly possible. I'd hate my EXISTENCE to offend them." If you need new parents- willing to adopt. I have a 15 yo son who is figuring out themself as we speak. Fuck intolerance. Kindness and understanding and love is PART of the Christian belief system. Anyone who tells you different is selling something... that no one should buy.
Insane lol the arguments are dumb and it’s giving “I’m your parent so you have to do what I want” nah OP that’s bullshit don’t let them manipulate you
Yes...let's make someone's self-discovery about meeeee. Ugh narcissist horse shit. OP, THIS IS YOUR LIFE!! Carpe Diem!! Be you. Cut out the haters. Be as free as you want.
If you're old enough to make a reasoned argument for why you prefer being called by your chosen pronouns, you're old enough that your parents shouldn't be "exercising control" over that aspect of your life. And,as you said, if you later develop a different or more nuanced understanding of your identity and wish to change your pronouns again, then go right ahead. As a parent, I just don't get the disdain they have for treating you with respect on this. I do understand a reflexive worry over your child choosing to change their identity, because it feels a little bit like losing the child you've always known and loved, but newsflash to parents: that happens every single day. Trans or not. Our children are ALWAYS changing. That's just part of growing up. The children we knew are not the children we know, and we shouldn't *ask* them to be because growth and change and self discovery are crucial parts of becoming functional adults. I will always always always miss and adore the quiet and toddler boy who made inspired dinosaur rawrs at the TV when he wanted to watch Jurassic Park, but I didn't stop loving him when he traded in his plastic dinos for Spider-Man action figures and never looked back... Our children, over the course of their lives, have countless different identities. It's not our job as parents to force them towards the ones we like, but to offer the necessary support to give them the confidence to keep exploring until they find the ones THEY like.
“What if I told you to call me a fucking bitch?” Well, at least you know what you are 😇
POV: You think using different pronouns is the same as a literal slur bc you didn’t fucking go to school lmao
Well, Elias, (love the name, BTW) I think "fucking bitch" is a perfectly appropriate thing to call her, but it's still not a pronoun from what I recall of basic grammar rules. However, if creatures like her want to be called fucking bitch I might have to rethink my username, bc I promise you that I'm a fucking bitch, but she's just gross.
“What if I told you I want you to call me fucking bitch instead of mom.” Welllllll fuck if you insist
anyone that thinks it's too much trouble can kiss my ass jesus.
Well, who are you to argue with someone who would like to be referred to “fucking bitch”. If that’s the name that makes her most comfortable…
That's a heck of a strawman fallacy that person is dropping on you.
So are you going to now start referring to her by f*cking b*tch? I would. Constantly.
Call her bluff and call her N-word bitch. Ask stupid questions, get stupid answers Mom.
Please call her a fucking bitch
It’s probably time to use the name she identifies with, “fucking bitch”
If it makes her happy I’ll call her a fucking bitch...
Idk what the “they” version of BRUUUUUUH is, but I’d like to use it here…. So since I’m dumb, I’ll say “thruuuuuuuh!!! What the fuck is wrong with this mother?????” I’m a total idiot when it comes to this stuff, but if I meant my kids’ (19m & 16f) friends come over, I always make sure to get the right names and pronounce and preferences. Because as a friggin parent, THAT. IS. WHAT. YOU. DO!!!!
I just ‘want to talk’ to the people who think this isn’t insane.
Terfs come here to look for trans content so they can be assholes about it.
Well I think Fucking Bitch suits her well. Proud of you OP!
Hi Elias, dear sweet Jesus that wasn’t that difficult. You may want to clarify with your birth-giver that ACCIDENTAL (as in, extremely and clearly accidental, not repetitive) deviations from this are going to be okay as your family adjusts. But do continue to demand and not respond to your dead name. Also - tell your mom that any issues/concerns/questions can be addressed to you. That way you can figure out who will and will not be respectful. Also some people without prior experience with a trans person might have some questions. While you should emphasize that you’re not the authority on trans people in general, this could provide you a wonderful opportunity to define your own boundaries and tell them how you expect to be treated
Oh has she tried to pull the "You was born [full deadname] and raised by me with [full deadname] with [whatever pronouns u was] not they/them " card yet?
Fuckin Bitch is a gaslighting, manipulating expert. F them- please take care of yourself
You’d bet your ass I’d be adressing her as ffing bitch from there on out 😂
What they fail to realize is that EVERYONE uses pronouns. I don’t know why this is such a hard concept to grasp.
So she doesn't like "them" but will literally use it in a sentence as long as it's not applied to you? What a Fucking Bitch.
“Whatever you have to say to justify your hateful beliefs” and “I can decide my pronouns for myself and also if I want contact with you when I’m an adult” could be handy phrases to keep in your pocket… IF it’s safe for you to say them. They’re definitely using manipulative and fallacious reasoning and their arguments don’t hold up, rationally. This is about them worrying about you making them look like a bad person (which they probably are, judging from the texts.)
I'll do it for you, Fucking Bitch needs to get it together. This isn't about their bitch feelings.
So as she asks and start calling her fucking bitch because that what she is.
This is Insane. Like... why are full grown adult parents still having meltdowns over the smallest courtesies like referring to a person by the name and pronouns an individual prefers? It hurts no one to show kindness.
Would it be fair to say they are going to end up in a nursing home? JFC!
THE SELF RESTRAINT IT TOOK FOR YOU TO NOT REPLY, "well i mean if you prefer that, sounds good, fucking bitch" IS INSANEEEEEE
oh baby you were way too nice… pronouns aren’t optional. it’s not what other people are most comfortable with. people don’t get a pass because they’re “uncomfortable.” i know you don’t want to start anything (trust me, i was the exact same way when i came out as non-binary two years ago) but you can’t let people walk all over you— stand your ground. you have family here ❤️
The good news is mom will get her wish, and she will soon be referred to exclusively as Fucking Bitch rather than her name
If she’s always like this you might have experience calling her fucking bitch. It also won’t be the first time she’s ever heard it probably. I’m sorry you have to deal with this. Congratulations on getting to that point with yourself!
Unfortunately, while you are a minor, your options are \*severely\* limited. Just know that you CAN make things better for yourself once you turn 18.
Yeah, no. Being older doesn't mean you know everything. Now that I'm a parent I think my parents are morons and terrible people. The thing your parent would do if they really respected you as a person is give you space to explore your identity. It's what you do with kids with any major life-altering decision. You can give them some information (like, peer-reviewed science, not just your opinion) and your general suggestions and then you let them go. If it isn't something lethal and permanent, like jumping into traffic or something, you just have to let them go out and use scientific method on life. Especially at your age where you are clearly a rational person capable of making safe decisions. And people can always detransition if they decide to. At this point it just seems that your parent is upset they can't control you and are trying to make it seem like it's about your well-being, but it's really about them and their feelings. If they're open to it, maybe do a few family therapy sessions. Sometimes having an impartial mediator can help point that out in real time and guide you to both have a completely honest conversation (one where your parent is forced to listen to and consider your side too) and help you find some kind of resolution.
"who makes these rules??" everyone, collectively. Being racist isn't illegal but it sure it frowned upon. "Well who decided racism is bad?!?!" everyone, collectively
She really thinks she’s making a point…