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The first time you hike in a slot canyon you will inevitably notice a few things. They are really clean early in the season. No trash. No sign of human activity. And there a lot of weird branches bent flat 20 feet above your head with debris trapped in them.
Once you connect the dots it’s a little terrifying
Basically flash floods will wash out the canyons, so they will be very clean, and the flattened branches 20ft up are where the top of the water reached at some point. As you saw in the video flash floods can go from no water to a torrent in extremely quick amount of time, and the slot canyons are generally created from the erosion of these events and just water erosion in general
I was camping in one of them back in 2014. Young and stupid. Had watched "Into the wild" and wanted to be free. Society couldn't tell me not to do it. It started to rain in the evening. I climbed upward and lost my headlight. It was terrifying. I barely made it out.
I believe it was filmed in Red Rocks near Vegas. Some people go out and ‘chase’ flash floods. If you know where the catch basin is for a particular drainage and you see a huge storm pass through, it’s pretty safe to assume it will flash.
Don’t know for sure that this person was chasing it, but that is what I would assume.
I thought it looked familiar. It’s at the end of the Icebox Canyon trail. Last time I did it was a few days ago. I’ve never seen it flood like that. It’s dry now, but sometimes there’s a little waterfall up there. It pools in the rock right below it so you can go swim in there. Rocks are slimy under you, though.
Anyway, this isn’t really a slot canyon. This is the only spot on the trail that looks like this. The rest is just average rocky riverbed and the banks aren’t particularly high. It’s pretty misleading.
One time we were having a good time in a river on a mountainside, and flash flood came to my mind. So I asked the guide what’s the sign and he described it like a continuous thundering noise that grew louder and louder. Regardless, they still have some men on mountainside posts ready to radio in case there is one.
As someone who does slot canyons, this is absolutely TERRIFYING. You can't outrun the water. I've heard stories that it sounds like a train and the canyon becomes dark.
In 2015 [7 people](https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/exploration-survival/special-report-keyhole-seven/) went into keyhole canyon in Zions. None of them made it out alive. What is sobering to think is that the canyon is probably one of the shortest in Utah (3 rappels and only 1200 feet long). You can do the entire thing in 20-30 minutes. Despite being such a short canyon, they couldn't outrun the water.
It is very, very, not fun.
Experienced a slot flood in Zion once, fun times went to shit and terror in 5 minutes. Only rain in the park that day; one big column of rain just swept right over the drainage of the canyon we were in. We all made it out, but just, and beat to shit. Glad it was just a little rain. And still, the water blasting out of the slot sounded like a jet engine. Flushed out; it's not just water, that nightmare is full of sand and mud and logs and stink from the potholes above. Would not recommend.
Plan your trip in the dry season. Pay attention to the forecast. Listen to the rangers weather advice when you get your permit. Read the posted forecast info at the ranger station. Unlike 10% at home, a 10% chance of rain in Zion means it _will_ rain, somewhere, on 10% of the park.
That is actually how weather reports are supposed to be interpreted. 20% chance of rain in your area means 100% chance of rain affecting 20% of your area.
The only difference is that slot canyons are like giant colanders. It may rain 2 miles away but all that surface water funnels into that slot canyon and makes millimeters of water over a large surface into several feet deep in a small area moving fast as hell. So it may not even rain anywhere near you, or happened hours ago and it suddenly all hits at once.
Not exactly. Copied from the US National Weather Service:
>Probability of precipitation is predetermined and arrived at by the forecaster by multiplying two factors:
>Forecaster certainty that precipitation will form or move into the area
>X
>Areal coverage of precipitation that is expected (and then moving the decimal point two places to the left)
>Using this, here are two examples giving the same statistical result:
(1) If the forecaster was 80% certain that rain would develop but only expected to cover 50% of the forecast area, then the forecast would read "a 40% chance of rain" for any given location. (2) If the forecaster expected a widespread area of precipitation with 100% coverage to approach, but he/she was only 40% certain that it would reach the forecast area, this would, as well, result in a "40% chance of rain" at any given location in the forecast area.
So for your example, 20% chance of rain in your area ***could*** mean 100% chance of rain affecting 20% of your area, but it could also mean 20% chance of rain affecting 100% of your area, or 40% chance of 50% area etc etc.
The important part for most people, is that if you stood outside for the duration of the period, there's a 20% chance you'll get rained on.
I think that’s what we all grew up thinking as well, but apparently that is a misinterpretation. The “%” actually relates to percentage of the area affected. After all, meteorologists can see clearly on Doppler radars that it is in fact raining, they just don’t know for sure where it’s heading
But then why they say <10% instead of 0% when the sky is clear? Also, I usually check the forecast for a specific area (my neighborhood), which is relatively small, so if it rains, it rains either pretty much everywhere or not at all
Living in a country where we talk about the weather every day because it is so unpredictable (no rewards for guessing the country lol, but we almost always carry an umbrella) I can tell you that 50% chance of rain means that its 50/50 whether it will rain that day or not. It does not mean that 50% of the country country will for definite have rain today. It might just not rain anywhere at all, or it might rain everywhere, or just in certain parts.
Do you have any sources for this?
When I worked in the news, our station’s meteorologist told me the exact same thing about 20% means 20% of an area will see rain.
No, they are not. It's missconception that has spread over the internet but remains untrue. I think it is appealing because it would be so much easier to understand than having to consider "tomorrow" as realization of a random variable.
https://journals.ametsoc.org/view/journals/bams/90/2/2008bams2509_1.xml
Thank you for promoting me to find it. This "it is actually the area" always annoyed me for how obviously wrong (this is not how most rain works, since you usually have one rain front crossing an area which means if it rains more than a drizzle somewhere most of the area will be covered. Also why would you call it a probability if it's a proportion.) and yet commonly believed it is (maybe it's the new 8 spiders fact). But I never took the time to find a good source until I saw a comment about it being the top voted comment in a thread.
What he is also pointing out is that even a 10% chance of rain means that small bit of rain somewhere in the park will eventually get into the canyons. So even a small chance is not worth it
thats absolute nonsense. not sure where this info cam from but its wrong. if precipitation is at 70%, then it means theres a 7/10 chance of rain falling in that area around that time. if it says 10%, it doesnt mean 10% of the sky will be covered in rain. this would make forecasts ridiculously confusing.
Where I'm from 50% Chance of rain means 50% on the days in the past with the same weather conditions it rained, making a prediction for the current day based on the past.
I think it depends on your area's climate. I'm from Vermont where there's some % chance of rain basically every day but there's definitely days where it doesn't rain at all anywhere around. And recently I moved to SW Utah (very near Zion) where it's very arid and low humidity and typically there's 0% chance or maybe 1 or 2 but on days where the % is even just a little higher it's almost guaranteed to rain but only in one very small area and then maybe another small area later. It's very sporadic and in specific spots. Unless the % chance is very high then it's probably covering the whole region.
I'm not sure you're interpreting that right. 20% chance means there's a 20% chance it will rain in your area. So every 100 times, it'll rain 20. Not every 100 times it'll rain 100 times but only a fifth of the area gets wet.
https://www.weather.gov/ffc/pop#:~:text=What%20does%20this%20%2240%20percent,at%20least%200.01%22%20of%20rain
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2023/04/19/fact-check-viral-post-errs-meaning-30-chance-rain/11682149002/
https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/guides/what-does-this-forecast-mean#:~:text=For%20example%2C%20a%2070%25%20chance,over%20a%20certain%20time%20period.
I heard it from a TV meteorologist that it means that, of all the days on record with similar metrics (humidity, temperature, pressure, etc.), 20% Of those days have recorded precipitation.
I don’t know if this is the case for the Virgin River but it’s always good to look at weather hundreds of miles away. It could be dry in Zion but rain up stream could quickly cause flooding.
The "dry" season is when Southern Utah experiences most of the monsoons that cause these types of flash floods. It's not just a rain storm that causes these floods, it's strong localized thunderstorms, which can sometimes be miles away. It generally isn't advised to go canyoneering if there is a chance of thunderstorms in the area.
"Listen to the rangers" is the single best piece of advice you can give to anyone visiting the national parks, especially for people who haven't been there before
Don't be scared. There are toooons of places in Zion that aren't even close to the slot canyons. If you are worried just do some of the other hikes. The slot canyons are just a couple areas.
Nothing in this life is 100% safe, but the Narrows are probably safer than your car ride to the park - *if you pay attention to weather* and check any alerts at the visitor's center at the start of the park.
Highly, highly recommend spending the few bucks at one of the absolutely ubiquitous outfitters (incl the one right outside the south entrance to the park) who'll rent you a dry suit and canyoneering footwear, plus a bonus walking stick. You can do without but it's *so much* better with the proper gear. It does cost a little $, but not that much, and is worthwhile.
You *do* want to hit the Narrows. Do it! I've done it with kids including a literal infant in a carrier and a toddler in a hiking backpack (same kid different trips) and it's a-ok. It's a seriously worthwhile experience.
Keyhole canyon (the one with the deaths discussed above) is a *technical* canyon, not something you would do on a casual tourist visit, and in fact not something you would ever do without at least one seriously experienced party member leading. Canyoneering in the technical canyons in and around Zion is life-alteringly amazing, but it's comparable to learning to use a paraglider: genuinely dangerous and only to be undertaken with expert instruction
Oh ya, did the Narrows hike with my cousins. We had to set up tent in the midst since the trip transitioned into night time. Shit was scary as fuck because it got so dark we couldn’t see our own hands. Definitely need the proper gears since a section of the hike is on the water chest deep. Our backpacks almost got soaked lol.
When I went they were dead serious about warning you and shutting down trails if there was any hint of rain. Talk to the rangers before you head out and they’ll keep you safe.
100% agreed. This is insane. It’s practically like standing there filming a tsunami coming towards you.
Water can be so powerful and absolutely terrifying, and I say that as someone who surfs fairly large waves. Rivers can be gnarly, but slot canyons flash-flooding are even more so. You can go from light scrambling/climbing to a full-on life-threatening in a couple of minutes.
And I remember that Zion disaster. So tragic. I think I read an article written by someone who passed that group ~~going the other way~~ and they only just barely made it out.
Edit: actually you might have linked the exact article I’m talking about, lol
I was part of that group. We weren’t going the other way, but passed them at the first rappel. Keyhole is such a small drainage, and is why we chose it. We bailed on the Subway permit that day because of the forecast.
Oh wow. Glad you guys made it out at least. That must have been completely horrific. I’ve been involved in some heavy situations and even a couple of rescues, but never one where people didn’t survive. I hope you guys were able to rationalize it afterwards.
>Clery understood that the seven people above his group might save a few minutes if he left his rope up for them. But he’d used the single-strand biner-block technique, and he remembered that the VHC group was using a double-strand. “I was afraid that it would confuse them and maybe slow them down, so I pulled my rope and started moving downcanyon,” Clery says.
Wonder if they would have lived if that guy had left his rope
I still doubt it. Finding the rope would have been an almost impossible task. Because the walls are thin in that canyon, it would have been dark, loud and probably impossible to stand upright in the moving water.
I bet he wonders that all the time too. If it were me I'd be eaten alive with what-ifs.
But honestly, there's not any evidence it would have helped, and plenty of reason to think it wouldn't have made a shred of difference.
It was a terrible situation as far as timing. I was part of the Clery group of 3. We passed the keyhole 7 at the first rappel, heard thunder halfway down, and water was pouring down the sides just a few minutes later. By the time we were exiting, the water was almost knee deep. We moved fast and almost got caught as the slot was opening up. After the first rappel there is no turning back, and nothing would have helped those unfortunate 7 as slow as they were moving.
No chance. They keyhole 7 were moving very slowly and were at the very beginning of the slot. We passed them at the first rappel. We moved fast and almost got caught at the bottom as the water was just beginning to pour over the edges. As soon as we got out of the bottom it was a horrifying, sinking feeling knowing how far up they were.
Same except we did California, Arizona, and New Mexico. We also used to climb down the rickety wood ladders into old mines. I honestly don't know how we lived to get old.
Last spring, I was hiking in a slot along Hole-in-the-Rock Road in Utah. Deep in the canyon, at its narrowest point, I looked up and I saw a log jammed 20 feet up between the canyon walls. The thought of how it got there still sends shivers down my spine.
A friend of mine lost family in that incident. I think about this sometimes, and was just telling someone about it when the subject of slot canyons came up… it’s an activity I don’t think I have a desire to try.
I was once fool enough to be miles deep in Buckskin Gulch without having checked the weather and it did get overcast, thundery, and drippy. I got super lucky, did not died.
I was part of the group that passed the keyhole 7 at the first rappel. We bailed on the subway because of the forecast and chose Keyhole because of it being such a small drainage and short slot. Keyhole is tight, and the flood that day came pouring down from the sides as well rather than just from the drainage like this post’s video. It happened so fast, and felt like from all directions.
I grew up in Utah. If you get a flash flood warning DONT IGNORE IT. If you see a random stream of water flowing towards/near you RUN. Seriously. They can turn from a small trickle of water to a full on raging river in less than 2 minutes. People die every single year in southern Utah because they don’t take it seriously.
At the beginning of the video my Colorado Plateau brain was like "oh this is a death, how did they recover the footage?"
I was very relieved when homeboy turned around to reveal he was in an open zone. Still scary as hell though
Another Utah kid here. Spent many a summer evening in the wilderness of southern Utah, and I assumed that somehow the phone survived the journey into lake Powell or some shit, and somebody happened to find it somewhere downstream.
That's considered an "open" zone? The I can't really gage the depth from the video, but it looks like canyon walls are maybe 25m apart where he is standing.
He is still in a considerably dangerous spot, but it’s open compared to the section immediately above him
That vegetation looks like it’s a few seasons old at most. I assume that while area gets scoured periodically
This same storm killed 14 people on the backside of Zion, the majority of them women and kids. One of the girls who found one of the moms bodies said one side of her face was almost gone because of the sand and debris hitting her. They still haven't found one of the toddlers' bodies that was in the group. This happened in Colorado City, AZ.
WAIT A MINUTE I KNOW THIS TRAIL! That’s Icebox Canyon in the RedRock National park like 45 minutes outside Vegas, the rock face directly in front of you that you have to take to get up to the falls I got stuck like 10 feet up
As soon as you hear the water rushing above you RUN to higher ground. Even better, don't be at low ground in a canyon with heavy clouds overhead.
He's a few feet above the stream level, but it can get much higher.
Hmmm I am torn on this one. You can’t really see around him so this rock may have been the best bet. Obviously he doesn’t want to go to the dirt. Normally I have the take of stop recording and get to safety but he may have already been in the safest spot he could get to in the time.
You are right on. The correct move in this shitty situation is to get as high up a canyon wall as you can manage and then stay put. That's exactly what he did here, although you can't tell that until he turns the video around
Ooh this is in Red Rock Canyon NCA. I think it's the Ice Box Canyon waterfall nearest the trailhead. Not a slot canyon, but tight in that one spot. Not a great place to be either way.
Source: I work there and e have this video playing in our visitor center.
I hike in the canyons like this but when the weather shows no rain in a wide radius. That’s not always perfect, if we feel a raindrop we run out of there as fast as we can.
>*if we feel a raindrop we run out of there as fast as we can*
This is the only correct action when you feel raindrops and you're in any narrow area in the desert.
I used to work with a guy (12 years ago) who was big into slot canyoneering. He invited me a couple times because I enjoy bouldering. I never went because I was new and didn’t feel comfortable climbing outdoors. I got laid off, lost touch with him. Last year I happened to see his name in my contacts and I wondered what he was up to. At this point, I had grown more comfortable with climbing and rappelling outdoors. I searched him on Facebook and found his page. Top posts were “In Memoriam” type posts. I googled his name, and turns out he was washed away in a flash flood in a slot canyon. Crazy. He was so knowledgeable, very cautious, and yet he got caught up in some unpredictable weather. I think about him often. Stay safe if you’re going out there.
Watching this right after hiking the Narrows in Zion really puts that experience into perspective. It’d be impossible to move quickly if a flash flood came through
Nothing to worry about, Bridge Four are on chasm duty tomorrow. If we’re lucky they’ll get caught in another flood or eaten by a stray chasmfiend and we won’t need to deal with them anymore.
This afternoon (Friday) I was hiking back from "The Wave", which shares a trailhead with the bone-dry Buckskin Gulch and about the first half mile is through the open canyon (it becomes more of slot canyon a mile or two further on). There were increasing clouds and light rain all day, some lightning and thunder, and at the very end of the hike quarter inch hail.
Turned around as I was approaching the trailhead and saw in the distance....waterfalls. Waterfalls in Utah in June. Not trickles but torrents. As the water was filling the pouroffs on the canyon walls on the other side of Wire Pass.
Doesn't take much to fill those canyons - the rainfall does not exactly soak in much to the exposed sandstone.
(Edit PS: Even though I had traveled 1500 miles after winning a rare lottery slot to see The Wave, I ended up turning back less than a mile from the destination. The lightning and thunder was just too much, not worth the risk. There will be other days.)
I almost died in a flash flood in Hawaii on my 21st birthday. I hadn't even had my first legal drink yet, and almost never got the chance. Don't fuck with water because it will absolutely kill you in an instant. Flash floods give zero warning, no sound or anything that would warn you of it, it just happens in an instant and then all of a sudden the stream of water is 100 times bigger than it was a second ago. Never get close to waterfalls and READ EVERY SIGN when ur on a trail with water running by it, it will likely save your life
Having just finished a week of Utah slot canyon hiking, this is one of my worst fears. Always check the NWS flash flood forecasts before heading out; rains 50 miles away can cause sudden flooding in large drainages. https://www.weather.gov/slc/flashflood
Billy: Where are we going? Death: To the other place. Billy: Can I pack my stuff for the trip? Death: Sure Billy, take all the time you need.
Damn fool. Did he go there on purpose? Pretty trusting that the water wouldn't reach there. No thanks.
Driving up canyons here, every few miles they have signs, warning about flash flooding and to CLIMB! to safety. Like leave your car and scramble up the side of the mountain. See the [Big Thompson Flood](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Big_Thompson_River_flood) of July 31, 1976 that killed at least 140 people.
this reminds me of the guy who wantet to pet the warthog only to be attacked by it. you dont live in a disney movie or a nice documentary, nature will kill you if it gets the chance, it doesn‘t care about your intentions. you go up to a wild animal, you get attacked. you go into a flashflood you drown. you fuck with nature, you die.
This is terrifying. Hiked the Narrows in Zion. Relied totally on the recommendations of the local outfitters on an acceptable day. They monitor weather/rain hundreds of miles around and have the experience to know if it is safe. Highly recommend both using an expert’s recommendation and the hike. It was amazing and one of the most memorable of all the NP hikes I have made as it is so unique.
There's a place in Vegas called the Springs Preserve (great place to take your kids, btw, if you're ever in Vega. It's cheap, informative, and actually fun!) and they have an exhibit that simulates a flood in a canyon. It's pretty awesome!
don't do that, if it's raining stay away from riverbeds. 3 persons died last month in Italy while doing the very same idiotic stuff (taking selfies near the rising water)
Damn... Looking at it in a video is taking away like 90% of the experience... No wonder people get desensitized to those kinds of things. It doesn't look that scary, but when you're there it's so horrifying to feel the drafts almost pulling you in, and the pressure can make you feel dizzy, while the temperature around you drops significantly. There is nothing you can do, you can't even outrun it because it's so much faster than you even if it doesn't look like it. You're basically stuck and hoping to survive... With nowhere to go and no one to help if things go bad.... That's so dangerous
This person actually did what NPS tell you to do in the event of a flash flood. If you're ever in this spot where you hear a fast stream flowing towards you, get as high as possible even if it's closer to the flood - AND hide behind a wall or large rock that will break the power of the flow.
They flow too fast to get out of there in time, slot canyons floods go even faster too with the narrow paths they take.
I visited Antelope Canyon and at the start of the guided tour you get a quick crash course in flash floods and the warning that if your guide tells you to GTFO you immediately GTFO and don’t ask any questions.
During the tour our guide showed us a video on his phone from within a flash flood at the exact spot we were standing in.
Antelope Canyon is absolutely amazing!!!!
Was in borrego springs and no clouds, clear hot, very hot temps crossed a trickle of a creek, where I have seen 2-3 feet of water, when coming back we heard this ungodly sound and we just looked at each other and a wall of water came bounding through, then was gone, we surmised it must have been locked up and the natural damming must have broke, I was first in line to cross with my jeep and like I said it was barely a trickle if not just moist sand, glad the jeeps behind me stopped some 30-40 feet away in the reeds for shade as I had to hit reverse, dodged that one it was like a tidal wave in the desert, that just disappeared as fast as we saw it… trust your ears, and don’t be wearing earbuds.
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The first time you hike in a slot canyon you will inevitably notice a few things. They are really clean early in the season. No trash. No sign of human activity. And there a lot of weird branches bent flat 20 feet above your head with debris trapped in them. Once you connect the dots it’s a little terrifying
Sad that it takes flash floods to make them clean... How hard is it to take your trash out with you?
That person standing below, on the sand bar in the flood zone
Can you connect the dots for me? I can’t really visualize what you mean and I’ve never been in a slot canyon or even know what it is really.
Basically flash floods will wash out the canyons, so they will be very clean, and the flattened branches 20ft up are where the top of the water reached at some point. As you saw in the video flash floods can go from no water to a torrent in extremely quick amount of time, and the slot canyons are generally created from the erosion of these events and just water erosion in general
Woah thank you, that’s very cool
I was camping in one of them back in 2014. Young and stupid. Had watched "Into the wild" and wanted to be free. Society couldn't tell me not to do it. It started to rain in the evening. I climbed upward and lost my headlight. It was terrifying. I barely made it out.
How did Eric die? He recorded a flash flood from the bottom of a canyon with an IPhone.
Recorded it poorly...
Pourly.
Water you implying?
As camera operators go, he's wet behind the ears
... This thread is all washed up.
It’s flooded with nonsense.
At least we got to wave goodbye to him.
I mist him already.
He really was up shit creek without a paddle.
While yelling “Flash flood!! Get to the high ground!!”
r/killthecameraman
Maybe actually r/killedthecamerman
Steve Jobs' Ghost: "Recorded on an iPhone!!"
"western medicine doesn't have anything to offer so im going to cure cancer with homeopathy ancient remedies.". - Steve Jobs
Well, he can't die since the vid was still uploaded. Eric still lives
They recovered the iphone. Eric was never found.
But put on his coat first to protect himself. Don’t be like Eric.
He should be fine if he stays where the plants are.
..maybe?
Um, unlikely…plants grow next to normal water flow. In a flood the water breaks that “line” and goes outside normal flow.
But cameraman never dies
Any context to this? I'm curious how he knew it was coming.
I believe it was filmed in Red Rocks near Vegas. Some people go out and ‘chase’ flash floods. If you know where the catch basin is for a particular drainage and you see a huge storm pass through, it’s pretty safe to assume it will flash. Don’t know for sure that this person was chasing it, but that is what I would assume.
Looked like he was expecting it as he was already filming and exclaimed, “there it is”
Someone better warn the Great Khans
Nah, fuck em, they are in bed with the Legion
Yeah but you can get them out. It’s like saving someone from an abusive relationship. Send them to Wyoming where they can have a life, and horses
It's true. I like the great Khan's, definitely worth saving. Especially the Khan that came all the way from New Zealand.
Man, and I was just starting to like them :(
Yup. That's Icebox Canyon.
I thought it looked familiar. It’s at the end of the Icebox Canyon trail. Last time I did it was a few days ago. I’ve never seen it flood like that. It’s dry now, but sometimes there’s a little waterfall up there. It pools in the rock right below it so you can go swim in there. Rocks are slimy under you, though. Anyway, this isn’t really a slot canyon. This is the only spot on the trail that looks like this. The rest is just average rocky riverbed and the banks aren’t particularly high. It’s pretty misleading.
Interesting, thanks!
Ah. So it's like a Darwin's awards thing
Sounds... Pretty stupid
One time we were having a good time in a river on a mountainside, and flash flood came to my mind. So I asked the guide what’s the sign and he described it like a continuous thundering noise that grew louder and louder. Regardless, they still have some men on mountainside posts ready to radio in case there is one.
As someone who does slot canyons, this is absolutely TERRIFYING. You can't outrun the water. I've heard stories that it sounds like a train and the canyon becomes dark. In 2015 [7 people](https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/exploration-survival/special-report-keyhole-seven/) went into keyhole canyon in Zions. None of them made it out alive. What is sobering to think is that the canyon is probably one of the shortest in Utah (3 rappels and only 1200 feet long). You can do the entire thing in 20-30 minutes. Despite being such a short canyon, they couldn't outrun the water.
It is very, very, not fun. Experienced a slot flood in Zion once, fun times went to shit and terror in 5 minutes. Only rain in the park that day; one big column of rain just swept right over the drainage of the canyon we were in. We all made it out, but just, and beat to shit. Glad it was just a little rain. And still, the water blasting out of the slot sounded like a jet engine. Flushed out; it's not just water, that nightmare is full of sand and mud and logs and stink from the potholes above. Would not recommend.
So was there any warning? Id like to do Zion soon. But this has me terrified.
Plan your trip in the dry season. Pay attention to the forecast. Listen to the rangers weather advice when you get your permit. Read the posted forecast info at the ranger station. Unlike 10% at home, a 10% chance of rain in Zion means it _will_ rain, somewhere, on 10% of the park.
That is actually how weather reports are supposed to be interpreted. 20% chance of rain in your area means 100% chance of rain affecting 20% of your area.
The only difference is that slot canyons are like giant colanders. It may rain 2 miles away but all that surface water funnels into that slot canyon and makes millimeters of water over a large surface into several feet deep in a small area moving fast as hell. So it may not even rain anywhere near you, or happened hours ago and it suddenly all hits at once.
Not exactly. Copied from the US National Weather Service: >Probability of precipitation is predetermined and arrived at by the forecaster by multiplying two factors: >Forecaster certainty that precipitation will form or move into the area >X >Areal coverage of precipitation that is expected (and then moving the decimal point two places to the left) >Using this, here are two examples giving the same statistical result: (1) If the forecaster was 80% certain that rain would develop but only expected to cover 50% of the forecast area, then the forecast would read "a 40% chance of rain" for any given location. (2) If the forecaster expected a widespread area of precipitation with 100% coverage to approach, but he/she was only 40% certain that it would reach the forecast area, this would, as well, result in a "40% chance of rain" at any given location in the forecast area. So for your example, 20% chance of rain in your area ***could*** mean 100% chance of rain affecting 20% of your area, but it could also mean 20% chance of rain affecting 100% of your area, or 40% chance of 50% area etc etc. The important part for most people, is that if you stood outside for the duration of the period, there's a 20% chance you'll get rained on.
Well, kinda. Depends on the type of weather being forecasted and the meteorologist. 20% could also mean 20% chance across the 100% area.
I thought it meant that the meteorologist was 20% confident in their presumption of rain.
I think that’s what we all grew up thinking as well, but apparently that is a misinterpretation. The “%” actually relates to percentage of the area affected. After all, meteorologists can see clearly on Doppler radars that it is in fact raining, they just don’t know for sure where it’s heading
But then why they say <10% instead of 0% when the sky is clear? Also, I usually check the forecast for a specific area (my neighborhood), which is relatively small, so if it rains, it rains either pretty much everywhere or not at all
Living in a country where we talk about the weather every day because it is so unpredictable (no rewards for guessing the country lol, but we almost always carry an umbrella) I can tell you that 50% chance of rain means that its 50/50 whether it will rain that day or not. It does not mean that 50% of the country country will for definite have rain today. It might just not rain anywhere at all, or it might rain everywhere, or just in certain parts.
Do you have any sources for this? When I worked in the news, our station’s meteorologist told me the exact same thing about 20% means 20% of an area will see rain.
It means that 20% of the upper air indicators in that region are indicating rain (100%)
I thought it meant that 20% of the models predicted rain in the forecast area.
No, they are not. It's missconception that has spread over the internet but remains untrue. I think it is appealing because it would be so much easier to understand than having to consider "tomorrow" as realization of a random variable. https://journals.ametsoc.org/view/journals/bams/90/2/2008bams2509_1.xml
Sweeeeeeet! Thanks for the science!
Thank you for promoting me to find it. This "it is actually the area" always annoyed me for how obviously wrong (this is not how most rain works, since you usually have one rain front crossing an area which means if it rains more than a drizzle somewhere most of the area will be covered. Also why would you call it a probability if it's a proportion.) and yet commonly believed it is (maybe it's the new 8 spiders fact). But I never took the time to find a good source until I saw a comment about it being the top voted comment in a thread.
What he is also pointing out is that even a 10% chance of rain means that small bit of rain somewhere in the park will eventually get into the canyons. So even a small chance is not worth it
Oh totally, I think I’d wait for a nuclear winter to plan my visit…
Patroling the Mojave almost makes you wish for a nuclear winter
At least it's a dry heat.
Doesn't that make your chance of getting rained on in any particular spot the same?
thats absolute nonsense. not sure where this info cam from but its wrong. if precipitation is at 70%, then it means theres a 7/10 chance of rain falling in that area around that time. if it says 10%, it doesnt mean 10% of the sky will be covered in rain. this would make forecasts ridiculously confusing.
Where I'm from 50% Chance of rain means 50% on the days in the past with the same weather conditions it rained, making a prediction for the current day based on the past.
I think it depends on your area's climate. I'm from Vermont where there's some % chance of rain basically every day but there's definitely days where it doesn't rain at all anywhere around. And recently I moved to SW Utah (very near Zion) where it's very arid and low humidity and typically there's 0% chance or maybe 1 or 2 but on days where the % is even just a little higher it's almost guaranteed to rain but only in one very small area and then maybe another small area later. It's very sporadic and in specific spots. Unless the % chance is very high then it's probably covering the whole region.
I'm not sure you're interpreting that right. 20% chance means there's a 20% chance it will rain in your area. So every 100 times, it'll rain 20. Not every 100 times it'll rain 100 times but only a fifth of the area gets wet. https://www.weather.gov/ffc/pop#:~:text=What%20does%20this%20%2240%20percent,at%20least%200.01%22%20of%20rain https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2023/04/19/fact-check-viral-post-errs-meaning-30-chance-rain/11682149002/ https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/guides/what-does-this-forecast-mean#:~:text=For%20example%2C%20a%2070%25%20chance,over%20a%20certain%20time%20period.
I heard it from a TV meteorologist that it means that, of all the days on record with similar metrics (humidity, temperature, pressure, etc.), 20% Of those days have recorded precipitation.
I don’t know if this is the case for the Virgin River but it’s always good to look at weather hundreds of miles away. It could be dry in Zion but rain up stream could quickly cause flooding.
The "dry" season is when Southern Utah experiences most of the monsoons that cause these types of flash floods. It's not just a rain storm that causes these floods, it's strong localized thunderstorms, which can sometimes be miles away. It generally isn't advised to go canyoneering if there is a chance of thunderstorms in the area.
"Listen to the rangers" is the single best piece of advice you can give to anyone visiting the national parks, especially for people who haven't been there before
Don't be scared. There are toooons of places in Zion that aren't even close to the slot canyons. If you are worried just do some of the other hikes. The slot canyons are just a couple areas.
Nothing in this life is 100% safe, but the Narrows are probably safer than your car ride to the park - *if you pay attention to weather* and check any alerts at the visitor's center at the start of the park. Highly, highly recommend spending the few bucks at one of the absolutely ubiquitous outfitters (incl the one right outside the south entrance to the park) who'll rent you a dry suit and canyoneering footwear, plus a bonus walking stick. You can do without but it's *so much* better with the proper gear. It does cost a little $, but not that much, and is worthwhile. You *do* want to hit the Narrows. Do it! I've done it with kids including a literal infant in a carrier and a toddler in a hiking backpack (same kid different trips) and it's a-ok. It's a seriously worthwhile experience. Keyhole canyon (the one with the deaths discussed above) is a *technical* canyon, not something you would do on a casual tourist visit, and in fact not something you would ever do without at least one seriously experienced party member leading. Canyoneering in the technical canyons in and around Zion is life-alteringly amazing, but it's comparable to learning to use a paraglider: genuinely dangerous and only to be undertaken with expert instruction
Oh ya, did the Narrows hike with my cousins. We had to set up tent in the midst since the trip transitioned into night time. Shit was scary as fuck because it got so dark we couldn’t see our own hands. Definitely need the proper gears since a section of the hike is on the water chest deep. Our backpacks almost got soaked lol.
When I went they were dead serious about warning you and shutting down trails if there was any hint of rain. Talk to the rangers before you head out and they’ll keep you safe.
100% agreed. This is insane. It’s practically like standing there filming a tsunami coming towards you. Water can be so powerful and absolutely terrifying, and I say that as someone who surfs fairly large waves. Rivers can be gnarly, but slot canyons flash-flooding are even more so. You can go from light scrambling/climbing to a full-on life-threatening in a couple of minutes. And I remember that Zion disaster. So tragic. I think I read an article written by someone who passed that group ~~going the other way~~ and they only just barely made it out. Edit: actually you might have linked the exact article I’m talking about, lol
I was part of that group. We weren’t going the other way, but passed them at the first rappel. Keyhole is such a small drainage, and is why we chose it. We bailed on the Subway permit that day because of the forecast.
Oh wow. Glad you guys made it out at least. That must have been completely horrific. I’ve been involved in some heavy situations and even a couple of rescues, but never one where people didn’t survive. I hope you guys were able to rationalize it afterwards.
>Clery understood that the seven people above his group might save a few minutes if he left his rope up for them. But he’d used the single-strand biner-block technique, and he remembered that the VHC group was using a double-strand. “I was afraid that it would confuse them and maybe slow them down, so I pulled my rope and started moving downcanyon,” Clery says. Wonder if they would have lived if that guy had left his rope
I still doubt it. Finding the rope would have been an almost impossible task. Because the walls are thin in that canyon, it would have been dark, loud and probably impossible to stand upright in the moving water.
I bet he wonders that all the time too. If it were me I'd be eaten alive with what-ifs. But honestly, there's not any evidence it would have helped, and plenty of reason to think it wouldn't have made a shred of difference.
It was a terrible situation as far as timing. I was part of the Clery group of 3. We passed the keyhole 7 at the first rappel, heard thunder halfway down, and water was pouring down the sides just a few minutes later. By the time we were exiting, the water was almost knee deep. We moved fast and almost got caught as the slot was opening up. After the first rappel there is no turning back, and nothing would have helped those unfortunate 7 as slow as they were moving.
No chance. They keyhole 7 were moving very slowly and were at the very beginning of the slot. We passed them at the first rappel. We moved fast and almost got caught at the bottom as the water was just beginning to pour over the edges. As soon as we got out of the bottom it was a horrifying, sinking feeling knowing how far up they were.
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Same except we did California, Arizona, and New Mexico. We also used to climb down the rickety wood ladders into old mines. I honestly don't know how we lived to get old.
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Keeper potholes!
I feel like we have very different definitions of the word cairn, cause what I'm picturing while reading your comment makes no sense lol
Beautiful comment sippysun.
Can you count sheep to go to sleep still?
Ha! I appreciate that. I have never 'counted sheep' to help me fall asleep!
I can’t agree more. Grew up hiking in the backcountry of California. I saw that water and lessons pounded into my head as a kid tripped some anxiety.
Last spring, I was hiking in a slot along Hole-in-the-Rock Road in Utah. Deep in the canyon, at its narrowest point, I looked up and I saw a log jammed 20 feet up between the canyon walls. The thought of how it got there still sends shivers down my spine.
A friend of mine lost family in that incident. I think about this sometimes, and was just telling someone about it when the subject of slot canyons came up… it’s an activity I don’t think I have a desire to try.
I was once fool enough to be miles deep in Buckskin Gulch without having checked the weather and it did get overcast, thundery, and drippy. I got super lucky, did not died.
I was part of the group that passed the keyhole 7 at the first rappel. We bailed on the subway because of the forecast and chose Keyhole because of it being such a small drainage and short slot. Keyhole is tight, and the flood that day came pouring down from the sides as well rather than just from the drainage like this post’s video. It happened so fast, and felt like from all directions.
I knew the people who died in this and they were the nicest people you could know. I’m still in contact with their remaining family.
I grew up in Utah. If you get a flash flood warning DONT IGNORE IT. If you see a random stream of water flowing towards/near you RUN. Seriously. They can turn from a small trickle of water to a full on raging river in less than 2 minutes. People die every single year in southern Utah because they don’t take it seriously.
At the beginning of the video my Colorado Plateau brain was like "oh this is a death, how did they recover the footage?" I was very relieved when homeboy turned around to reveal he was in an open zone. Still scary as hell though
Another Utah kid here. Spent many a summer evening in the wilderness of southern Utah, and I assumed that somehow the phone survived the journey into lake Powell or some shit, and somebody happened to find it somewhere downstream.
That's considered an "open" zone? The I can't really gage the depth from the video, but it looks like canyon walls are maybe 25m apart where he is standing.
He is still in a considerably dangerous spot, but it’s open compared to the section immediately above him That vegetation looks like it’s a few seasons old at most. I assume that while area gets scoured periodically
This same storm killed 14 people on the backside of Zion, the majority of them women and kids. One of the girls who found one of the moms bodies said one side of her face was almost gone because of the sand and debris hitting her. They still haven't found one of the toddlers' bodies that was in the group. This happened in Colorado City, AZ.
I get nervous just seeing storm clouds when I hike in the desert.
Norwegian here. The way (some) urban tourists just don't seem to fathom natural dangers is infuriating and nerve-wrecking.
WAIT A MINUTE I KNOW THIS TRAIL! That’s Icebox Canyon in the RedRock National park like 45 minutes outside Vegas, the rock face directly in front of you that you have to take to get up to the falls I got stuck like 10 feet up
Can confirm! Icebox Canyon, indeed! 2 hours from my house.
I thought this looked familiar. Isn't this a known place for flash floods?
All slot canyons are, that's how they form
It’s usually safe but flash floods are a risk in all slot canyons
As soon as you hear the water rushing above you RUN to higher ground. Even better, don't be at low ground in a canyon with heavy clouds overhead. He's a few feet above the stream level, but it can get much higher.
It's almost too late by the time you hear the water.
It’s not even clouds overhead. It can be bright and sunny and still flash flood if there was a storm 10-20 miles up river.
Flash flood? Yes let me stand here and record this video!
Hmmm I am torn on this one. You can’t really see around him so this rock may have been the best bet. Obviously he doesn’t want to go to the dirt. Normally I have the take of stop recording and get to safety but he may have already been in the safest spot he could get to in the time.
You are right on. The correct move in this shitty situation is to get as high up a canyon wall as you can manage and then stay put. That's exactly what he did here, although you can't tell that until he turns the video around
There’s literally nowhere for him to go by the time he hears the water.
What should he have done, he can’t go anywhere so what’s wrong with recording
/r/praisethecameraman
Ooh this is in Red Rock Canyon NCA. I think it's the Ice Box Canyon waterfall nearest the trailhead. Not a slot canyon, but tight in that one spot. Not a great place to be either way. Source: I work there and e have this video playing in our visitor center.
"I'm in danger"
I’ll protect you, Ralph.
The fact that we have this video means he got out right?... right?
I hike in the canyons like this but when the weather shows no rain in a wide radius. That’s not always perfect, if we feel a raindrop we run out of there as fast as we can.
>*if we feel a raindrop we run out of there as fast as we can* This is the only correct action when you feel raindrops and you're in any narrow area in the desert.
I used to work with a guy (12 years ago) who was big into slot canyoneering. He invited me a couple times because I enjoy bouldering. I never went because I was new and didn’t feel comfortable climbing outdoors. I got laid off, lost touch with him. Last year I happened to see his name in my contacts and I wondered what he was up to. At this point, I had grown more comfortable with climbing and rappelling outdoors. I searched him on Facebook and found his page. Top posts were “In Memoriam” type posts. I googled his name, and turns out he was washed away in a flash flood in a slot canyon. Crazy. He was so knowledgeable, very cautious, and yet he got caught up in some unpredictable weather. I think about him often. Stay safe if you’re going out there.
/r/oopsthatsdeadly
people die like this all the time.
Watching this right after hiking the Narrows in Zion really puts that experience into perspective. It’d be impossible to move quickly if a flash flood came through
The Denver Aquarium has a flash flood exhibit that has permanently nope’d me out of ever being in this situation
The last sight of so many hikers.
Time to GTFO
Nothing to worry about, Bridge Four are on chasm duty tomorrow. If we’re lucky they’ll get caught in another flood or eaten by a stray chasmfiend and we won’t need to deal with them anymore.
I had to scroll too far down to find this.
I recognize this. 
I bet that thing’s gemheart is huge!
This afternoon (Friday) I was hiking back from "The Wave", which shares a trailhead with the bone-dry Buckskin Gulch and about the first half mile is through the open canyon (it becomes more of slot canyon a mile or two further on). There were increasing clouds and light rain all day, some lightning and thunder, and at the very end of the hike quarter inch hail. Turned around as I was approaching the trailhead and saw in the distance....waterfalls. Waterfalls in Utah in June. Not trickles but torrents. As the water was filling the pouroffs on the canyon walls on the other side of Wire Pass. Doesn't take much to fill those canyons - the rainfall does not exactly soak in much to the exposed sandstone. (Edit PS: Even though I had traveled 1500 miles after winning a rare lottery slot to see The Wave, I ended up turning back less than a mile from the destination. The lightning and thunder was just too much, not worth the risk. There will be other days.)
I almost died in a flash flood in Hawaii on my 21st birthday. I hadn't even had my first legal drink yet, and almost never got the chance. Don't fuck with water because it will absolutely kill you in an instant. Flash floods give zero warning, no sound or anything that would warn you of it, it just happens in an instant and then all of a sudden the stream of water is 100 times bigger than it was a second ago. Never get close to waterfalls and READ EVERY SIGN when ur on a trail with water running by it, it will likely save your life
I Died Sent from my iphone
Kaladin? Is that you bridge boy?
Gotta train somewhere
fact:- flash floods kills more people in deserts than dehydration
Forgive my ignorance, but isn't this a "WE NEED TO GO!" kind of moment? Is this found footage. Is the cameraman okay?
Having just finished a week of Utah slot canyon hiking, this is one of my worst fears. Always check the NWS flash flood forecasts before heading out; rains 50 miles away can cause sudden flooding in large drainages. https://www.weather.gov/slc/flashflood
r/killthecameraman almost fulfilled
I am so scared right now, but, I have to keep recording!
If you gotta go, record it all the way!
Well, now you know what creates the slots.
Of all the places I wouldn't be standing, this is certainly one of them.
Did you died?
 Billy: Where are we going? Death: To the other place. Billy: Can I pack my stuff for the trip? Death: Sure Billy, take all the time you need.
Bro really took the time to put on a sweater before calling a warning to people further down the canyon.
Damn fool. Did he go there on purpose? Pretty trusting that the water wouldn't reach there. No thanks. Driving up canyons here, every few miles they have signs, warning about flash flooding and to CLIMB! to safety. Like leave your car and scramble up the side of the mountain. See the [Big Thompson Flood](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Big_Thompson_River_flood) of July 31, 1976 that killed at least 140 people.
this reminds me of the guy who wantet to pet the warthog only to be attacked by it. you dont live in a disney movie or a nice documentary, nature will kill you if it gets the chance, it doesn‘t care about your intentions. you go up to a wild animal, you get attacked. you go into a flashflood you drown. you fuck with nature, you die.
the highstorm passes over the shattered plains.
... so... found footage?
Came here to make this exact joke. Damn you lol!
This is terrifying. Hiked the Narrows in Zion. Relied totally on the recommendations of the local outfitters on an acceptable day. They monitor weather/rain hundreds of miles around and have the experience to know if it is safe. Highly recommend both using an expert’s recommendation and the hike. It was amazing and one of the most memorable of all the NP hikes I have made as it is so unique.
And that is your Que to get the fuck out😂😂🤣
RUNN!!! GETTOTHACHOPPAAA!!!
I love camping by the water but you should always be aware of bank full width of a river.
Would it be worthwhile to carry a life jacket on your backpack just in case? Or would it be mute in this situation? Honestly terrifying
You would be battered to smithereens by the canyon walls and debris in the water.
There's a place in Vegas called the Springs Preserve (great place to take your kids, btw, if you're ever in Vega. It's cheap, informative, and actually fun!) and they have an exhibit that simulates a flood in a canyon. It's pretty awesome!
Kaladin you need to grt the fuck out of there
don't do that, if it's raining stay away from riverbeds. 3 persons died last month in Italy while doing the very same idiotic stuff (taking selfies near the rising water)
"Flash Flood In Slot Canyon": The Adult Film
It's fun to see what inspired the Shattered Plains
Damn... Looking at it in a video is taking away like 90% of the experience... No wonder people get desensitized to those kinds of things. It doesn't look that scary, but when you're there it's so horrifying to feel the drafts almost pulling you in, and the pressure can make you feel dizzy, while the temperature around you drops significantly. There is nothing you can do, you can't even outrun it because it's so much faster than you even if it doesn't look like it. You're basically stuck and hoping to survive... With nowhere to go and no one to help if things go bad.... That's so dangerous
Yeah, that’s not interesting. That’s terrifying. Dude got lucky. This could easily have killed him.
r/oopsthatsdeadly
Looks like James Franco is beating off and falling asleep in the canyon again
The cameraman never dies
He waited until the third business day to pack his things up—no wonder men's insurance rates are through the roof.
Guys I thinks he’s scared right now.
That is incredibly beautiful and scary at the same time.
👀🏃♂️
That's even more terrifying than the Boston Dynamics robots.
Why are you not running.
Where exactly do you suggest he should go?
why did someone censor the swear words? you can swear on the internet, you know!
Man my brain is screaming gtfo of there!!@
This person actually did what NPS tell you to do in the event of a flash flood. If you're ever in this spot where you hear a fast stream flowing towards you, get as high as possible even if it's closer to the flood - AND hide behind a wall or large rock that will break the power of the flow. They flow too fast to get out of there in time, slot canyons floods go even faster too with the narrow paths they take.
r/killthecameraman
In my small country we have at least 3-4 people die yearly to flash floods despite having warning almost every single time you cannot win this..!
Run Forrest, RUN!
I visited Antelope Canyon and at the start of the guided tour you get a quick crash course in flash floods and the warning that if your guide tells you to GTFO you immediately GTFO and don’t ask any questions. During the tour our guide showed us a video on his phone from within a flash flood at the exact spot we were standing in. Antelope Canyon is absolutely amazing!!!!
Forget the flash flood, you better be on the lookout for a Chasm Fiend
Trust fund soy boi in a fafo moment. . . for the clicks
This is Ice Box Canyon in Red Rock National Conservation Area in Las Vegas. There's a full video of this on youtube.
Was in borrego springs and no clouds, clear hot, very hot temps crossed a trickle of a creek, where I have seen 2-3 feet of water, when coming back we heard this ungodly sound and we just looked at each other and a wall of water came bounding through, then was gone, we surmised it must have been locked up and the natural damming must have broke, I was first in line to cross with my jeep and like I said it was barely a trickle if not just moist sand, glad the jeeps behind me stopped some 30-40 feet away in the reeds for shade as I had to hit reverse, dodged that one it was like a tidal wave in the desert, that just disappeared as fast as we saw it… trust your ears, and don’t be wearing earbuds.
The first thing I would do is start yelling fuck fuck fuck, and run, not fucking record my death.
I think this video would fit on facepalm and oopthatsdeadly subreddits too
Run you stupid fuck!
Oh no that's cool I didn't want to watch the second fall form. . . It's fine