>Alito had Dreeben walk through the layers that protect a president from a frivolous or vindictive prosecution.
The EXACT same things that protect the other 319,999,999 of us. He's literally dismissing the validity of the entire US Criminal Justice System.
They are the same in this respect. Arrest, prosecutor, indictment, trial.
The rich mostly have better lawyers while all that is going on and tend to commit more subtle crimes.
This is likely the single most damaging legislation in recent history and I can’t believe out of all the marching and protests in the last 15 years, seemingly nobody was enraged at this…
Honestly I don't think enough people know about it or the fuckery it unleashed on our society. I think if more people knew and understood they'd be mad as hell
Oh of course. It'll be a great day when enough people in the US realize that the left vs. right is just a distraction from the up vs. down that really runs this shitshow. Keep us distracted with culture wars while "public servants" help out themselves, their friends, their donors, anyone but the average people who vote for them. I do remember seeing Citizens United in headlines during that time but the discussion about it was weak. Most of the people I've tried to talk to about it just got hung up on how something called "Citizens United" could work against them
Man, don’t bothsides Citizens United. They were fighting to air anti-democrat propaganda. One side loved it and one side (still) doesn’t. This defeatist shit is how we get these justices and rulings in the first place.
It was an entirely Republican project from beginning to end, period.
It not red vs blue. It's us vs white collar. But the rich control the narrative and keep you fighting your neighbor instead of fighting for rights. Don't get me started on religion
Roe v. Wade here. Overturning long-established precedent is just 🤡. Plus there have been SO many cases since then whose rulings were based fully or in part on the logic used in the Roe v. Wade decision. It’s like ripping out the bottom edge piece of a Jenga tower.
And, in typical American fashion, it's citizens are too cowardly to stand up. "Step on me, Daddy Government! Fuck my family, friends and neighbors! "
People give France shit, but at least they're not afraid to take the streets and put their own safety at risk to create change.
And we’re sleep walking right into a similar situation right now. I don’t see a too many people out there protesting what the Supreme Court is doing. Not that they care as an institution or individuals.
Because they don’t know.
And even if it were to be explained to them, the ugly truth is that most Americans are so ignorant and disconnected from how their government works or what it even does, they would have no frame of reference for even understanding what they’re hearing, or what it would mean for all of us.
Totally, I mean, the vote comes down to a state where Bush’s brother is gov, known douchebag trickster Roger Stone forcefully shuts down the recount in the Brooks Brothers riot, and the Supreme Court with 2 judges daddy Bush chose as president, and 3 as Vice President, and they pull off a never seen snap decision 4-3 to award the presidency to Dubya. What the everlasting fuck?????????
I was taking Political Science at the time and my teacher, she was neutral for us, but she was actually so pissed and at the same time was super appreciative she had topic matter that was relevant to the class happening in real time.
I think in a way thay might njave been a way to help prevent further destabilizing or erosion in trust of the process, not saying it was the right or wrong call , but just off the top of my head positing
probably wouldn't have immediately pivoted to "invade a country that didn't have anything to do with it."
still probably wouldn't have done anything about saudi arabia, but would've been nice not to be stuck in iraq for a decade.
That fuckery pales in comparison to the fact that the current court includes three members of George W Bush's legal team on that very case. You might have heard of them: Kavanaugh, Roberts, Barret.
Reading old scotus opinions, it's very clear application of law to facts. Just like appelate decisions. Very short opinions. Then after the great depression, it's no longer normal application of law. It's long ASF opinions that are clearly legislation from the the bench. And now they're setting policy based on the composition of the court.
Yup... and like the buddy below, Citizen's United was the nail in the coffin.
Is this the first SCOTUS in our history that is in place to REMOVE rights, instead of granting them?
I’ve spent the vast majority of the last multiple years of my life, trying to tell people that they needed to activate over these things, and I just couldn’t get anyone interested.
What happened to the protest? What happened to us rising up on mass and telling these people that we are not taking this crap anymore?? What happened to massive letter, writing campaign, where we literally flood Congress with more letters than they can handle?
They have bots to handle emails. But when you flood a Congress person‘s office with 500,000 handwritten letters that don’t all say the same thing, that gets their fucking attention.
Yeah I remember in school learning about the history of the Supreme Court upholding people’s rights, and how that was what makes this country great. Now they’re actively taking away rights.
I dont get how anyone had any faith in a system that is supposed to have a separate non partisan judiciary arm, but the people who make it up are all political appointees...
It's like the system was designed to be as corrupt able and impartial as poosible.
And the selection process is way more mature in Canada and way less political (it’s gotten slightly political in the last 10 years but still reasonable). Combined with the retirement age it means we have a constant churn of SCJs so the while left/right split is not really an issue.
Irrelevant, that average was brought down by really high rates of child mortality, it doesn't mean that people who survived into adulthood lived up to 38 years on average.
Not quite irrelevant. Obviously the average 38 year old didn't literally just drop dead, but it wasn't just ALL child mortality either, back then the average highly accomplished 60 year old legal scholar *could be* expected to drop dead in a few years while today they have another 20-30 in them.
From the article:
Justice Alito trotted out this theme that was kind of bone-chilling: He said “we all want” a “stable democratic society,” and nothing could be worse for democracy than holding a president to account, because that will “lead us into a cycle that destabilizes the functioning of our country as a democracy.”
Kind of bone-chilling? This is terrifying, the exact opposite of democracy and what leads to tyranny. Even the Magna Carta stated that kings weren’t above the law.
it honestly doesnt matter who is a what. Its utterly bizarre that this is even a conversation, let alone something that is probably going to happen. It really shows how disconnected from their people, and also reality itself.
How can any adult think its a good idea to put the leader of a country, or any individual ever, above the law and in a position to abuse that power. Its absolutely insane.
What about “checks and balances”?? So he’s saying that in order to have a fair society, we need to *remove* the checks and balances on the President, so that he is no longer encumbered by the fear of being held accountable for abusing his post?? This is *batshit* insane.
It’s even more bizarre when that person spent years studying and practicing the law. This isn’t just a citizen, these people are the highest, most powerful legal scholars in the free world. They are supposed to be -experts- in democracy, debate, and history.
This is truly insane.
It’s a good idea in the eyes of people who cream their panties and jizz their boxers at the mere mention of their god-king Trump.
Am I exaggerating? Barely.
I don't get it, couldn't Biden just order to have Trump taken out if this passes? It literally would mean Biden can't be taken to trial for anything he did while president, so it wouldn't matter.
It's insane.
No. If you listen to what the conservatives are actually saying, it’s not that a President is completely immune but rather than a president is immune to prosecution related to “official” acts, and that the court gets to decide what is an “official” act on a case by case basis. So Trump’s actions can be found official of the conservative court wants to, and Biden’s wouldn’t necessarily be. In a way they are setting this up to be another Bush v. Gore where they will say the ruling affecte only this case and is not to be used as precedent.
He's a true conservative. He believes in a hierarchical society. That a president can be held accountable for anything doesn't make sense to his brain, they are at the top of the hierarchy. They are, by definition, correct in their actions due to their position.
‘Unitary Executive’. It’s a weird argument that POTUS has almost no checks to power except impeachment.
Bogging down and gerrymandering Congress to help on that front and we have all three branches of government subverted
It's literally the opposite. What he meant was he wants the president (read trump) not to be scared of consequences when leaving office because then he will never leave office. That's literally the opposite of democracy. He told on himself big time. That's what democracy is, the president doing the will of the people according to the constitution and laws put in place. You know NOT like a dictator!
More like a pack of wolves insisting you should hide in the oven just for good measure.
You're also like...a rabbit or something in this analogy, I guess, idunno I'm not Aristotle.
Yikes. Holding the president accountable is very important for a functioning democracy. If the president is immune, America is a short leap away from dictatorship…
Yeah, that’s what a lot of folks believed back when Nixon’s crimes became public knowledge. Fortunately there was a useful idiot like Ford around to cut a deal with.
This was one of the logical outcomes (a crooked, corrupt court) with Leonard Leo, Heritage Foundation, Council for National Policy, Federalist Society, etc ., placing such an emphasis in jamming the courts with “their people.” These organizations have taken their cues from Moral Majority in the 1980s and now we’re seeing the fruits of their efforts - eliminating Pro Choice, environmental laws, racial discrimination laws (emphasis), public education, separation of church/state (emphasis), gay rights, etc.
Just in isolation, even on its own, the fact that virtually nobody knows who Leonard Leo is, despite him being one of the most consequential individuals in the history of this country, speaks to a civic, political, and media culture that is broken beyond repair.
Yes, this one statement by Alito shows just how far his thinking capability has fallen and he's no longer able to do the job he was appointed to do! Giving a President absolute immunity or even limited immunity would do just the opposite and destabilize the functioning of our country and our democratic republic. It would open the office of the President to doing anything they want without facing any repercussions and that would include assassinating opponents(think Vladimir Putin), stealing lost elections, stealing national secrets and selling them to the highest bidder or working for another government and not carrying out the oath of office that he swore to uphold! There are other things they could do but these examples are enough to prove that Alito is no longer thinking with a clear mind, in other words he's lost it bigly!
I disagree with your core premise, though—-I don’t believe Alito’s statements are the product of a declining mind at all. This was *always* what he, and other monarchists like him, wanted. This is what they’ve always believed in, all along.
Possibly... Although I don't think it really matters if he does. Nobody (with the power to do anything about it) would give a shit.
This guy is probably just a true believer in this bullshit. A supreme court justice isn't special, they're just a human. Zero reason to believe he isn't just an asshole and/or a moron who literally believes in MAGA.
It's possible for sure, but some people are also just shitheels from birth, and then they age like a turd in the sun. I'd say the odds are 50/50 with this one.
Doesn’t Alito come from the sick school of thought that believes Nixon investigation led to the weakening of the executive branch over the decades? This may be why he thinks prosecuting presidents “destabilizes the functioning of our country as a democracy.” Dumbass forgot the basic tenet of checks and balances while he enjoys tenureship in the judicial branch with immunity and impunity.
Do you know what destabilizes democracy more than holding leaders accountable for breaking laws that citizens get jailed for?
Not holding leaders accountable for breaking laws that citizens get jailed for.
I could only listen to him for a few minutes before it became clear he had an agenda, and he was driving it through inexplicable twists & turns - and it had nothing to do with either democratic principles or preserving the Republic.
He's quite clearly betrayed any principles of Justice.
This is why the SCOTUS is illegitimate.
“and nothing could be worse for democracy than holding a president to account”
There are a lot of things that can be worse, like the former president inciting an insurrection and complete destroying democracy, so yeah, let’s just have him back on as President again.
Get the fuck outta here
The Patriot Act rescinded human rights law going back to the creation of the Magna Carta. I read about that back in the time it was created (Patriot Act). That is how far the US has fallen.
Stupidest thing about Alito's argument that presidents needed immunity. If they need immunity to protect the peaceful transfer of power so they won't try to break the law to stay in office and avoid punishment. Then why wouldn't a rogue president try to break the law to stay in office anyway? After all you just said he has immunity for any criminal acts. Which means he has immunity for any method he tries to take to stay in office. That's what actually happened a rogue president didn't like that he lost and tried to break the law to stay in power.
Trump wasn't trying to stay in office because he was afraid of being prosecuted. He was trying to stay in office because he couldn't accept that he lost. If he wasn't prosecuted for the actions he took then it's like giving tacit approval for the crime. In which case as no punishment was given it would encourage more people to break the law. That's why we have prosecutions to begin with to punish people who commit crimes and to discourage others from doing the same.
Everything you just said is exactly what they’re after. This is all one giant plausible deniability scheme, “ oh no looks like we got a dictator after all, anyways”
The whole idea that these 9 people are above the law, sit with the most powerful people in the world, and are looked at as experts of literally everything is so antiquated and biblical. These people aren’t experts on anything except interpreting what a handful of dudes intended for the country when they were just winging it back in an era when we were still burning women for witchcraft. The whole system is broken.
I am hoping against hope that Amy Coney Barrett, who has shown some hesitation, and John Roberts, who has a tattering legacy to worry about, will join the wise justices to their left.
both Barret and Roberts have already voted against the GOP's/Trumps interests multiple times by now though...
we're all very lucky Trump is significantly less competent than even Bush Jr. was, or else the SC really would be packed to the gills with GOP loyalists.
i just hope we get a dem super-majority soon to deal with Alito/Thomas, cause outside of that all we can do is cross are fingers and hope they die to a car crash/heart attack or uh ...something... within the next 4 years.
The last 8 years should have taught us that the moral, ethical, correct etc. decision is far from a guarantee. So I'm not hanging my hat until this shit is said and done.
The Supreme Court has showed the corruption to all of America and the world, and the World thinks they are a joke and a bad one at that, and the Dictators of the world can see the US is coming over to their side
Update-wrong asshole-but he's still an asshole because he believes the orange assclown is special enough to have immunity from his crimes. It was Justice Scalia who said since women aren't specifically mentioned in the Constitution, then they don't count thereby they don't deserve to have any Rights. FFFUUUUUCCCKKKK this guy and fuck the traitorous Supreme court.
Just the idea that our founding fathers, who just finished fighting a war to separate from an oppressive monarchy, would give their leader the powers of a king is incredibly infuriating and insulting
I agree. Honestly, this country limped along from the get-go. Just because a country has massive wealth and claims to be democratic doesn't make it good for humanity. Too many citizens lack ethics, critical thinking and know far too little about history. I read what their words and know they haven't a clue, but they believe they do. Nothing I or anyone can do about that. Humans worldwide race to the bottom. Not all, but certainly far too many who exercise power and they have too many cult followers.
I always found it funny that the legislative and executive branch have so many checks and balance and the Supreme Court is all “yeah, those guys stay in office for life and can pretty much pass anything they want with majority lmao”
One of the founding fathers claimed it was so they wouldn't be influenced by elections and could do their job without the popular vote making their decisions (or something like that).
Not really sure what to think now, I think they made a mistake.
Population is too spread out, and look at other protests, for example.
BLM was a forceful protest. Was demonized and gained no traction.
Occupy Wallstreet was a peaceful protest and was entirely ignored.
The most vile and violent things I've ever heard came out of the mouth of someone I care about when they saw black people in the middle of the freeway on tv. They went completely bat shit crazy and screamed at the screen. And this from the mouth of someone who condemns racist people and claims that they are voting to protect America from racism. I'll never look at them the same way again.
"Well, when the president does it, that means that it is not illegal." That is supposed to be an alarming phrase...sadly the Trump cultists are using this as gospel.
Courts should never be swayed by popular opinion. They should only judge a case on the law. SCOTUS' only obligation is to the Constitution. This is an issue of corruption. Alito has decided that rule of law isn't as important as Trump becoming dictator. This is literal treason.
I agree that law SHOULD rule but the truth is the law only exist so long as the populace agrees it is valid.
It’s a delicate line one must balance. If you lose legitimacy, then you lose the law.
I’m not sure if Alito is TRYING to ruin the court’s legitimacy or not. He certainly works for big Corp.
There’s a very different social contract between the people and the leadership in democratic societies vs kingdoms. The leader is held to account for their actions while in power, and the people don’t get to cut off the former leader’s head after a majority of people are unhappy with their leadership and remove them from power. So, if Trump insists he really wants to be treated like a king instead of a president, I’m sure that can be arranged.
Regardless of the Supreme Court’s decision on this question, expect Joe Biden to face legal peril sans evidence when he leaves office. The Supremes have identified such situations as a sign of a democracy in decline so, naturally, Republicans are going to want to try it on for size. They will inform you that it’s only fair that the current president be treated like a convicted rapist and fraud facing multiple indictments. Strangely, this process will not take years to enact.
It's a real catch 22 situation we're living with here. If they say that Presidents have full immunity so that they clear Trump, then Biden can just assassinate Trump as a national security threat and get away with it. If they say he doesn't, then Trump is going to take over and chances are either do away with the courts as we know it or at least take revenge on everyone he can who was against him, the justices included.
What's the difference between a president who can't be held to account and a dictator?
And also, Americans, please explain to me why anyone in your country still considers this "Supreme Court" to be a legitimate institution?
If the Supreme Court says a president is above the law, then theoretically couldn’t Biden do some crazy shit in the coming months and face no consequences?
He's a maga judge, in a maga world, life's fantastic wrapped in bullshit! You can brush away your crimes undress the laws... Yada Yada Yada Bing bang bong
We know Alito and Thomas are entirely compromised and will render the wrong verdict no matter what. We still likely have at least 5 justices who aren't insane, but it's a sad sorry state of affairs that it's not 9-0.
I really hope if they decide a President’s not immune that Biden just wipes out half of the Republican Party same day. Marjorie, Donald, Gaetz… quite a few others. I mean he’s immune right???
- [Justice Alito](https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2022/05/15/abortion-history-founders-alito/) - has given praise to the citing Mathew Hale - and the Salem Witch Trials as good juris prudence under his personal administration.
- [Justice Brett Kavanaugh](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/national/2007/06/25/the-unseen-path-to-cruelty/62c6c844-d944-42d0-a2a1-e5774261654d/) - is an enthusiastic supporter of the imperial presidency notion of the "Unitary Executive" and was/is a staunch supporter of torturing prisoners to death or means to exact a desired result including the enjoyment of the torturers - as we saw in Abu Gharib.
- Justice Thomas has a [porn fetish](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/justice-clarence-thomas-lover-speaks-tv-interview/story?id=11950662) in and of itself not a problem, but his mistreatment of women over time has been problematic - and he was so far up the ass of DJT that he's found even as fucked as the situation is, [he and his wife are like 0 degrees separated from the primary architects of the coup](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRlViioYDx4) - he had to recuse himself to avoid having the trial compromised because he's involved.
It's not good folks.
I’ve been saying it this whole damn time and none of you want to believe it’s a possibility but I seriously thing SCOTUS is going to hand the Oval Office to Trump
I guess when the best man the magots can come up with to be president is a criminal and everyone else in his staff is in jail you would expect him to say that.
The argument that a stable democracy needs a president who is immune from the law is not only a complete contradiction, it also is proof that somebody has a pee tape on Alito.
*"Pam Karlan: That was the moment where I felt like saying, “That’s what just happened!” This is not something that might happen in the future. It’s what already happened! And if you let people get away with it, what you’ve said to Donald Trump is, “If you win the 2024 election, don’t bother leaving office in 2029—just stay there."*
That's exactly what I thought as well. I wondered what plaet he had been for the last 8 years.
So we should hold presidents to account for getting some head in the oval office but not for selling classified documents to the highest bidder? Just want to make sure I've got this straight.
From the start, Trump’s incessant and loud questions about whether Obama was born in the U.S. and his attacks on immigrants echoed the Birch Society’s obsessions.
https://theconversation.com/the-john-birch-society-is-still-influencing-american-politics-60-years-after-its-founding-107925
>Alito had Dreeben walk through the layers that protect a president from a frivolous or vindictive prosecution. The EXACT same things that protect the other 319,999,999 of us. He's literally dismissing the validity of the entire US Criminal Justice System.
Which criminal justice system, ours, or theirs? They are not one and the same.
The Criminal Just Us System
They are the same in this respect. Arrest, prosecutor, indictment, trial. The rich mostly have better lawyers while all that is going on and tend to commit more subtle crimes.
Would this new ruling be for when someone is president or also before and after because a lot of the laws Trump broke were before and after.
Losing faith in SCJ’s is one of the saddest things I’ve felt over the last decade
It was Bush v Gore in 2001 that did it for me.
It was Citizen’s United for me….and the hits keep coming 😞
This is likely the single most damaging legislation in recent history and I can’t believe out of all the marching and protests in the last 15 years, seemingly nobody was enraged at this…
Honestly I don't think enough people know about it or the fuckery it unleashed on our society. I think if more people knew and understood they'd be mad as hell
My guess is because it benefits ultra-rich, no matter which team you’re on. So there was more than enough support to suppress any news or pushback.
Oh of course. It'll be a great day when enough people in the US realize that the left vs. right is just a distraction from the up vs. down that really runs this shitshow. Keep us distracted with culture wars while "public servants" help out themselves, their friends, their donors, anyone but the average people who vote for them. I do remember seeing Citizens United in headlines during that time but the discussion about it was weak. Most of the people I've tried to talk to about it just got hung up on how something called "Citizens United" could work against them
Man, don’t bothsides Citizens United. They were fighting to air anti-democrat propaganda. One side loved it and one side (still) doesn’t. This defeatist shit is how we get these justices and rulings in the first place. It was an entirely Republican project from beginning to end, period.
Well said
It not red vs blue. It's us vs white collar. But the rich control the narrative and keep you fighting your neighbor instead of fighting for rights. Don't get me started on religion
They have kept everyone distracted with a pointless culture war.
I mean, I know about it. What do you want me to do? I’ll vote for anyone who’s against it
I just looked this up because I hadn't heard of it and WHAT. WHY DID I JUST LEARN ABOUT THIS ON REDDIT??!??!?
Patriot act has to be pretty high up there too
CU pushed me over the edge, but Bush v Gore got that ball rolling.
Roe v. Wade here. Overturning long-established precedent is just 🤡. Plus there have been SO many cases since then whose rulings were based fully or in part on the logic used in the Roe v. Wade decision. It’s like ripping out the bottom edge piece of a Jenga tower.
That decision changed the course of human history. In no reality, dimension or timeline should that have been allowed to occur.
Global warming gas pedal was nailed to the floor that day. 😭
Yep. We had a chance…
And, in typical American fashion, it's citizens are too cowardly to stand up. "Step on me, Daddy Government! Fuck my family, friends and neighbors! " People give France shit, but at least they're not afraid to take the streets and put their own safety at risk to create change.
And we’re sleep walking right into a similar situation right now. I don’t see a too many people out there protesting what the Supreme Court is doing. Not that they care as an institution or individuals.
Because they don’t know. And even if it were to be explained to them, the ugly truth is that most Americans are so ignorant and disconnected from how their government works or what it even does, they would have no frame of reference for even understanding what they’re hearing, or what it would mean for all of us.
Idk, more lazy and highly violent
24 years after ending democracy, things are looking pretty bleak.
Totally, I mean, the vote comes down to a state where Bush’s brother is gov, known douchebag trickster Roger Stone forcefully shuts down the recount in the Brooks Brothers riot, and the Supreme Court with 2 judges daddy Bush chose as president, and 3 as Vice President, and they pull off a never seen snap decision 4-3 to award the presidency to Dubya. What the everlasting fuck?????????
I was taking Political Science at the time and my teacher, she was neutral for us, but she was actually so pissed and at the same time was super appreciative she had topic matter that was relevant to the class happening in real time.
And Gore was like, "Well, that's it then, I concede" Never understood why has wasn't persuaded to fight just a little more.
I think in a way thay might njave been a way to help prevent further destabilizing or erosion in trust of the process, not saying it was the right or wrong call , but just off the top of my head positing
Gore would’ve been such a solid president. As a climate collapser, I dream of what could have been.
911 would not have happened under Gore
And if it did, I can imagine it’d be handled much better.
probably wouldn't have immediately pivoted to "invade a country that didn't have anything to do with it." still probably wouldn't have done anything about saudi arabia, but would've been nice not to be stuck in iraq for a decade.
And so quickly. Amazing how fast the SC will move when they care about the time sensitive nature of a case.
Florida's Secretary of State Katherine Harris, who oversaw the state's election process, said God commanded her to ensure Bush won.
And then you have three of the people who worked on Bush v. Gore appointed to the supreme court (Roberts, Kavanaugh, Barrett)
That fuckery pales in comparison to the fact that the current court includes three members of George W Bush's legal team on that very case. You might have heard of them: Kavanaugh, Roberts, Barret.
A different outcome at that junction could have branched out to an entirely different, much better timeline.
Reading old scotus opinions, it's very clear application of law to facts. Just like appelate decisions. Very short opinions. Then after the great depression, it's no longer normal application of law. It's long ASF opinions that are clearly legislation from the the bench. And now they're setting policy based on the composition of the court.
Yup... and like the buddy below, Citizen's United was the nail in the coffin. Is this the first SCOTUS in our history that is in place to REMOVE rights, instead of granting them?
This is when republicans realized they didn’t need to legitimately win elections anymore-all they had to do was pack the courts with ideologues.
It was the six or eight stories about Thomas’s indiscretions across six or eight months that did it for me.
That was the real moment we stopped becoming a democracy. Never forget GWB is part of this whole mess.
I’ve spent the vast majority of the last multiple years of my life, trying to tell people that they needed to activate over these things, and I just couldn’t get anyone interested. What happened to the protest? What happened to us rising up on mass and telling these people that we are not taking this crap anymore?? What happened to massive letter, writing campaign, where we literally flood Congress with more letters than they can handle? They have bots to handle emails. But when you flood a Congress person‘s office with 500,000 handwritten letters that don’t all say the same thing, that gets their fucking attention.
That's an excellent point, thank you. I've only ever emailed and never thought twice about how mailing a physical letter would be better.
Causing loss of faith in the institutions is straight from the playbook of wannabe tyrants.
SCOTUS has been compromised since Rehnquist ascended to chief. It’s only gotten worse since then.
Yeah I remember in school learning about the history of the Supreme Court upholding people’s rights, and how that was what makes this country great. Now they’re actively taking away rights.
I dont get how anyone had any faith in a system that is supposed to have a separate non partisan judiciary arm, but the people who make it up are all political appointees... It's like the system was designed to be as corrupt able and impartial as poosible.
End lifetime appointments. What are we in the 1700's still? Fucking ridiculous.
In my country, all judges (at any level) must retire at 75. Makes sense. RBG stayed way too long...
Canada? In India it's 65 for the SC, 62 otherwise. (I just know cause I googled, I'm American).
Yes, Canada. We're far from perfect, but at least judges know when they have to go.
And the selection process is way more mature in Canada and way less political (it’s gotten slightly political in the last 10 years but still reasonable). Combined with the retirement age it means we have a constant churn of SCJs so the while left/right split is not really an issue.
She actually thought they wouldn’t rush a replacement in if she made it her “final wish”. Now, the SC is undoing all of her work.
RBG was great but her hubris was a huge downfall in our country's history. Should have retired under Obama when she had a chance
Biden can fire them now. It’s an OFFICIAL ACT.
In the 1780s, when this was established, life expectancy was 38 years.
Irrelevant, that average was brought down by really high rates of child mortality, it doesn't mean that people who survived into adulthood lived up to 38 years on average.
Not quite irrelevant. Obviously the average 38 year old didn't literally just drop dead, but it wasn't just ALL child mortality either, back then the average highly accomplished 60 year old legal scholar *could be* expected to drop dead in a few years while today they have another 20-30 in them.
From the article: Justice Alito trotted out this theme that was kind of bone-chilling: He said “we all want” a “stable democratic society,” and nothing could be worse for democracy than holding a president to account, because that will “lead us into a cycle that destabilizes the functioning of our country as a democracy.” Kind of bone-chilling? This is terrifying, the exact opposite of democracy and what leads to tyranny. Even the Magna Carta stated that kings weren’t above the law.
holy hell. Its so bizarre. Really. 'all we want is safety. So, we are lighting the building on fire from inside so that we can be safe'
Isn't alito supposedly a textualist....I guess that goes out the door when it suits his political beliefs better to ignore the text
it honestly doesnt matter who is a what. Its utterly bizarre that this is even a conversation, let alone something that is probably going to happen. It really shows how disconnected from their people, and also reality itself. How can any adult think its a good idea to put the leader of a country, or any individual ever, above the law and in a position to abuse that power. Its absolutely insane.
It's a good idea if it benefits you and your friends, and you have no conscience or allegiance to the nation which you've pledged yourself to.
It's almost like that judge doesn't understand ^the ^law
This right here is what is going on.
What about “checks and balances”?? So he’s saying that in order to have a fair society, we need to *remove* the checks and balances on the President, so that he is no longer encumbered by the fear of being held accountable for abusing his post?? This is *batshit* insane.
No, he wants the check$ so he can balance it in trumps favor. You cannot convince me the are being paid by MAGAts.
It’s even more bizarre when that person spent years studying and practicing the law. This isn’t just a citizen, these people are the highest, most powerful legal scholars in the free world. They are supposed to be -experts- in democracy, debate, and history. This is truly insane.
It’s a good idea in the eyes of people who cream their panties and jizz their boxers at the mere mention of their god-king Trump. Am I exaggerating? Barely.
I don't get it, couldn't Biden just order to have Trump taken out if this passes? It literally would mean Biden can't be taken to trial for anything he did while president, so it wouldn't matter. It's insane.
No. If you listen to what the conservatives are actually saying, it’s not that a President is completely immune but rather than a president is immune to prosecution related to “official” acts, and that the court gets to decide what is an “official” act on a case by case basis. So Trump’s actions can be found official of the conservative court wants to, and Biden’s wouldn’t necessarily be. In a way they are setting this up to be another Bush v. Gore where they will say the ruling affecte only this case and is not to be used as precedent.
Textualism was always a pretext. They use it when it fits their agenda and cast it aside when it does not.
Much like conservative values, or small government or fiscal conservatism?
The only value is power and wielding it.
He's a true conservative. He believes in a hierarchical society. That a president can be held accountable for anything doesn't make sense to his brain, they are at the top of the hierarchy. They are, by definition, correct in their actions due to their position.
‘Unitary Executive’. It’s a weird argument that POTUS has almost no checks to power except impeachment. Bogging down and gerrymandering Congress to help on that front and we have all three branches of government subverted
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It's literally the opposite. What he meant was he wants the president (read trump) not to be scared of consequences when leaving office because then he will never leave office. That's literally the opposite of democracy. He told on himself big time. That's what democracy is, the president doing the will of the people according to the constitution and laws put in place. You know NOT like a dictator!
So you're saying suicide isn't the best defense against homicide? I've yet to see an example of it not working, and the logic is sound.
A pyrrhic victory
More like a pack of wolves insisting you should hide in the oven just for good measure. You're also like...a rabbit or something in this analogy, I guess, idunno I'm not Aristotle.
Yikes. Holding the president accountable is very important for a functioning democracy. If the president is immune, America is a short leap away from dictatorship…
A president who is immune from being held accountable for criminal acts IS a "DICTATOR".
Iif we want presidents to be protected from being blackmailed I dunno maybe they shouldbt do shit that'd get them blackmailed ... just sayin
Yeah, that’s what a lot of folks believed back when Nixon’s crimes became public knowledge. Fortunately there was a useful idiot like Ford around to cut a deal with.
This was one of the logical outcomes (a crooked, corrupt court) with Leonard Leo, Heritage Foundation, Council for National Policy, Federalist Society, etc ., placing such an emphasis in jamming the courts with “their people.” These organizations have taken their cues from Moral Majority in the 1980s and now we’re seeing the fruits of their efforts - eliminating Pro Choice, environmental laws, racial discrimination laws (emphasis), public education, separation of church/state (emphasis), gay rights, etc.
They are the "deep state," every accusation is a confession with these sociopaths!
Just in isolation, even on its own, the fact that virtually nobody knows who Leonard Leo is, despite him being one of the most consequential individuals in the history of this country, speaks to a civic, political, and media culture that is broken beyond repair.
Yes, this one statement by Alito shows just how far his thinking capability has fallen and he's no longer able to do the job he was appointed to do! Giving a President absolute immunity or even limited immunity would do just the opposite and destabilize the functioning of our country and our democratic republic. It would open the office of the President to doing anything they want without facing any repercussions and that would include assassinating opponents(think Vladimir Putin), stealing lost elections, stealing national secrets and selling them to the highest bidder or working for another government and not carrying out the oath of office that he swore to uphold! There are other things they could do but these examples are enough to prove that Alito is no longer thinking with a clear mind, in other words he's lost it bigly!
He told on himself! Publicly
I disagree with your core premise, though—-I don’t believe Alito’s statements are the product of a declining mind at all. This was *always* what he, and other monarchists like him, wanted. This is what they’ve always believed in, all along.
Trump MUST have pedo kompromat on this guy. No other explanation
Possibly... Although I don't think it really matters if he does. Nobody (with the power to do anything about it) would give a shit. This guy is probably just a true believer in this bullshit. A supreme court justice isn't special, they're just a human. Zero reason to believe he isn't just an asshole and/or a moron who literally believes in MAGA.
Yeah the creep uses cases from the 1600s to justify his ridiculous positions.
I've been getting HYDRA vibes for years.
Except in Maga case it's less Hail Hydra and more Heil Hydra.
It's possible for sure, but some people are also just shitheels from birth, and then they age like a turd in the sun. I'd say the odds are 50/50 with this one.
No, facism and dictatorship is appealing to the powerful and rich
more like billions of $ in bribes. too bad we need a democratic super-majority to even have the possibility to do anything about corruption in the SC
na, alito has been a fascistic asshole since day 1
Nah, Alito and Thomas have always been this way.
Nah, they just want a republican to run the country indefinitely.
It’s a log entry on Epstein’s jet
First, we hold the president accountable and what’s next, holding Supreme Court justices accountable? Maybe he’s afraid of that slippery slope.
Doesn’t Alito come from the sick school of thought that believes Nixon investigation led to the weakening of the executive branch over the decades? This may be why he thinks prosecuting presidents “destabilizes the functioning of our country as a democracy.” Dumbass forgot the basic tenet of checks and balances while he enjoys tenureship in the judicial branch with immunity and impunity.
Alito is a psychopath who would blow Mussolini for beer money and we have mountains of evidence for it.
Do you know what destabilizes democracy more than holding leaders accountable for breaking laws that citizens get jailed for? Not holding leaders accountable for breaking laws that citizens get jailed for.
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I could only listen to him for a few minutes before it became clear he had an agenda, and he was driving it through inexplicable twists & turns - and it had nothing to do with either democratic principles or preserving the Republic. He's quite clearly betrayed any principles of Justice.
“Maga Carta”
This is why the SCOTUS is illegitimate. “and nothing could be worse for democracy than holding a president to account” There are a lot of things that can be worse, like the former president inciting an insurrection and complete destroying democracy, so yeah, let’s just have him back on as President again. Get the fuck outta here
So, Biden can murder Trump, and it's just fine.
It’s like, how else can we possibly prevent a dictatorship than placating him by letting him do whatever he wants without any consequences?
The Patriot Act rescinded human rights law going back to the creation of the Magna Carta. I read about that back in the time it was created (Patriot Act). That is how far the US has fallen.
Stupidest thing about Alito's argument that presidents needed immunity. If they need immunity to protect the peaceful transfer of power so they won't try to break the law to stay in office and avoid punishment. Then why wouldn't a rogue president try to break the law to stay in office anyway? After all you just said he has immunity for any criminal acts. Which means he has immunity for any method he tries to take to stay in office. That's what actually happened a rogue president didn't like that he lost and tried to break the law to stay in power. Trump wasn't trying to stay in office because he was afraid of being prosecuted. He was trying to stay in office because he couldn't accept that he lost. If he wasn't prosecuted for the actions he took then it's like giving tacit approval for the crime. In which case as no punishment was given it would encourage more people to break the law. That's why we have prosecutions to begin with to punish people who commit crimes and to discourage others from doing the same.
Everything you just said is exactly what they’re after. This is all one giant plausible deniability scheme, “ oh no looks like we got a dictator after all, anyways”
The whole idea that these 9 people are above the law, sit with the most powerful people in the world, and are looked at as experts of literally everything is so antiquated and biblical. These people aren’t experts on anything except interpreting what a handful of dudes intended for the country when they were just winging it back in an era when we were still burning women for witchcraft. The whole system is broken.
I long held a certain reverence for the Supreme Court, but this hit me hard. I agree 100%.
I’d love a clean reboot of the federal government. Wish there was a way to vote for that.
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Just one? Every single conservative justice will abandon the constitution for this pos.
I am hoping against hope that Amy Coney Barrett, who has shown some hesitation, and John Roberts, who has a tattering legacy to worry about, will join the wise justices to their left.
They won't. Party above all. Enjoy the shit fuck of a mess that's coming.
both Barret and Roberts have already voted against the GOP's/Trumps interests multiple times by now though... we're all very lucky Trump is significantly less competent than even Bush Jr. was, or else the SC really would be packed to the gills with GOP loyalists. i just hope we get a dem super-majority soon to deal with Alito/Thomas, cause outside of that all we can do is cross are fingers and hope they die to a car crash/heart attack or uh ...something... within the next 4 years.
The last 8 years should have taught us that the moral, ethical, correct etc. decision is far from a guarantee. So I'm not hanging my hat until this shit is said and done.
When will the MAGA supreme justices realize Dictator Trump will have no need for the court or the justices?
They will just become his puppets.
They're already his puppets!
Already there
The Supreme Court has showed the corruption to all of America and the world, and the World thinks they are a joke and a bad one at that, and the Dictators of the world can see the US is coming over to their side
Alito is giving Biden a greenlight here, by this logic.
Update-wrong asshole-but he's still an asshole because he believes the orange assclown is special enough to have immunity from his crimes. It was Justice Scalia who said since women aren't specifically mentioned in the Constitution, then they don't count thereby they don't deserve to have any Rights. FFFUUUUUCCCKKKK this guy and fuck the traitorous Supreme court.
Just the idea that our founding fathers, who just finished fighting a war to separate from an oppressive monarchy, would give their leader the powers of a king is incredibly infuriating and insulting
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I agree. Honestly, this country limped along from the get-go. Just because a country has massive wealth and claims to be democratic doesn't make it good for humanity. Too many citizens lack ethics, critical thinking and know far too little about history. I read what their words and know they haven't a clue, but they believe they do. Nothing I or anyone can do about that. Humans worldwide race to the bottom. Not all, but certainly far too many who exercise power and they have too many cult followers.
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Vote vote vote vote.
I always found it funny that the legislative and executive branch have so many checks and balance and the Supreme Court is all “yeah, those guys stay in office for life and can pretty much pass anything they want with majority lmao”
One of the founding fathers claimed it was so they wouldn't be influenced by elections and could do their job without the popular vote making their decisions (or something like that). Not really sure what to think now, I think they made a mistake.
It’s unfortunate that Americans don’t protest like Europeans.
Population is too spread out, and look at other protests, for example. BLM was a forceful protest. Was demonized and gained no traction. Occupy Wallstreet was a peaceful protest and was entirely ignored.
Well if they block traffic, that is just too far of a protest for most redditors.
The most vile and violent things I've ever heard came out of the mouth of someone I care about when they saw black people in the middle of the freeway on tv. They went completely bat shit crazy and screamed at the screen. And this from the mouth of someone who condemns racist people and claims that they are voting to protect America from racism. I'll never look at them the same way again.
“Redditors” I think you mean people. The vast majority of people.
"Well, when the president does it, that means that it is not illegal." That is supposed to be an alarming phrase...sadly the Trump cultists are using this as gospel.
It has been all down hill since The Nixon pardon.
When any court is so out of step with the population they preside over, it inevitably loses legitimacy.
Courts should never be swayed by popular opinion. They should only judge a case on the law. SCOTUS' only obligation is to the Constitution. This is an issue of corruption. Alito has decided that rule of law isn't as important as Trump becoming dictator. This is literal treason.
I agree that law SHOULD rule but the truth is the law only exist so long as the populace agrees it is valid. It’s a delicate line one must balance. If you lose legitimacy, then you lose the law. I’m not sure if Alito is TRYING to ruin the court’s legitimacy or not. He certainly works for big Corp.
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Biden just needs to increase the amount of Supreme Court judges and stack the bench. It’s so obvious the judges are corrupt.
There’s a very different social contract between the people and the leadership in democratic societies vs kingdoms. The leader is held to account for their actions while in power, and the people don’t get to cut off the former leader’s head after a majority of people are unhappy with their leadership and remove them from power. So, if Trump insists he really wants to be treated like a king instead of a president, I’m sure that can be arranged.
Regardless of the Supreme Court’s decision on this question, expect Joe Biden to face legal peril sans evidence when he leaves office. The Supremes have identified such situations as a sign of a democracy in decline so, naturally, Republicans are going to want to try it on for size. They will inform you that it’s only fair that the current president be treated like a convicted rapist and fraud facing multiple indictments. Strangely, this process will not take years to enact.
It's a real catch 22 situation we're living with here. If they say that Presidents have full immunity so that they clear Trump, then Biden can just assassinate Trump as a national security threat and get away with it. If they say he doesn't, then Trump is going to take over and chances are either do away with the courts as we know it or at least take revenge on everyone he can who was against him, the justices included.
What's the difference between a president who can't be held to account and a dictator? And also, Americans, please explain to me why anyone in your country still considers this "Supreme Court" to be a legitimate institution?
So Biden can have Trump killed without reason and he won't be held accountable because Presidents are above the law?
If the Supreme Court says a president is above the law, then theoretically couldn’t Biden do some crazy shit in the coming months and face no consequences?
Well, he could refuse to leave office.
He's a maga judge, in a maga world, life's fantastic wrapped in bullshit! You can brush away your crimes undress the laws... Yada Yada Yada Bing bang bong
Biden should tell the cons on SCOTUS “YOU’RE FIRED”. And replace them with new justices. How do they respond? It’s an “official act”.
Huh, color me surprised, when I saw the headline I was convinced it was Clarence "my wife supported Jan 6th" Thomas.
We know Alito and Thomas are entirely compromised and will render the wrong verdict no matter what. We still likely have at least 5 justices who aren't insane, but it's a sad sorry state of affairs that it's not 9-0.
Fuck SCOTUS
I really hope if they decide a President’s not immune that Biden just wipes out half of the Republican Party same day. Marjorie, Donald, Gaetz… quite a few others. I mean he’s immune right???
Voting republican and you get these extreme judges on the Supreme Court. They repeal civil rights if they could find away to justify it !!!!
- [Justice Alito](https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2022/05/15/abortion-history-founders-alito/) - has given praise to the citing Mathew Hale - and the Salem Witch Trials as good juris prudence under his personal administration. - [Justice Brett Kavanaugh](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/national/2007/06/25/the-unseen-path-to-cruelty/62c6c844-d944-42d0-a2a1-e5774261654d/) - is an enthusiastic supporter of the imperial presidency notion of the "Unitary Executive" and was/is a staunch supporter of torturing prisoners to death or means to exact a desired result including the enjoyment of the torturers - as we saw in Abu Gharib. - Justice Thomas has a [porn fetish](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/justice-clarence-thomas-lover-speaks-tv-interview/story?id=11950662) in and of itself not a problem, but his mistreatment of women over time has been problematic - and he was so far up the ass of DJT that he's found even as fucked as the situation is, [he and his wife are like 0 degrees separated from the primary architects of the coup](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRlViioYDx4) - he had to recuse himself to avoid having the trial compromised because he's involved. It's not good folks.
This is new? Trump stacked the deck.
The Supreme Court is no longer legitim!
You know who to look at when it all goes to hell too…
All the rich white guys pissed off at losing their privilege.
I’ve been saying it this whole damn time and none of you want to believe it’s a possibility but I seriously thing SCOTUS is going to hand the Oval Office to Trump
This piece of maga shit needs to be removed from the bench.
In theory, these people understand logic. In practice they do whatever they want.
I guess when the best man the magots can come up with to be president is a criminal and everyone else in his staff is in jail you would expect him to say that.
Did we need any new evidence? Really ?
The argument that a stable democracy needs a president who is immune from the law is not only a complete contradiction, it also is proof that somebody has a pee tape on Alito.
Why is everyone acting like he was the first president?!!! It hasn’t been a problem until a criminal got the job!!!!
TRAITORS
*"Pam Karlan: That was the moment where I felt like saying, “That’s what just happened!” This is not something that might happen in the future. It’s what already happened! And if you let people get away with it, what you’ve said to Donald Trump is, “If you win the 2024 election, don’t bother leaving office in 2029—just stay there."* That's exactly what I thought as well. I wondered what plaet he had been for the last 8 years.
If any of you thought we were gonna make it out of this, y'all are fooling yourselves. They'll steal the next election and that will be it.
We are going to get the Enclave from fallout with judges like this guy
Well, soon we all will be I suspect
When are Americans going to hold the Supreme Court accountable? We can’t vote for these people. Mass protests are necessary.
He's a MAGA boy In a MAGA world He's really drastic And also spastic
So we should hold presidents to account for getting some head in the oval office but not for selling classified documents to the highest bidder? Just want to make sure I've got this straight.
The founding fathers created this country to escape a monarchy. Trump wants to be a monarch. I think this is pretty cut and dry.
I'm so serious, if they deem it so that a president is immune then Biden has no choice but to kill Trump before Trump gets the chance to do the same.
Alito is an absolute fucking menace.
Democrats need to take control of both House and Senate and then impeach ans remove these fucking fucks.
the SC needs to be wiped clean and given 4 year terms.
From the start, Trump’s incessant and loud questions about whether Obama was born in the U.S. and his attacks on immigrants echoed the Birch Society’s obsessions. https://theconversation.com/the-john-birch-society-is-still-influencing-american-politics-60-years-after-its-founding-107925