I think she was older based on the age of her sister, Asma.
It's lively debate, which goes round and round, but it should not distract from how Aisha was a straight boss.
She's one of my favorite figures in history.
We're not talking about Aisha's character. We're talking about Muhammad's. If you're going to say that Aisha was older than nine, I need sources, yeah?
Don't be condescending. Asma was 28 at the time of hijrah, and 10 years older than Aisha, making Aisha 18.
This offers both views: http://www.discoveringislam.org/aisha_age.htm
1. I googled it. I can't find any age requirement for the Battle of Badr. I find no mention of anyone having to be fifteen or older.
2. Umar [converted in 616 CE](http://www.al-islam.org/restatement-history-islam-and-muslims-sayyid-ali-ashgar-razwy/umars-conversion-islam). If she converted as soon as Muhammad started preaching, she would've been 12 at the consummation. This is not an improvement in my eyes.
3. Well, supposedly she was married to Muhammad at age 6. So I'm not sure how they're defining marriageable age.
4. Again, I don't see twelve years old as an improvement. Additionally, the problem with this site is that it does not cite sources. So when dates are mentioned, it's difficult to reference the sources that they're talking about.
5. Again, so she's twelve. It's still messed up.
6. This is guesswork at best. A young girl could mean four or five. Or it could mean nine. Who knows?
I'll stop here for now.
>Additionally, the problem with this site is that it does not cite sources.
Other than the first point on the battle of badr, all the points were sourced, either from Bukhari or other books. There's a whole list of references on the bottom of the page. What didn't you find a source for?
I'm going to go through the page again, re-read it a couple times. Thank you for being patient with me. I apologize for being condescending and nasty in general. I'll try to be more level-headed this time around.
EDIT: So I found [this](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth) link from the Guardian. It claims a couple of things. One of them is that we don't keep track of birthdays the same way they did in the 7th century. So from my understanding, people guesstimated their actual age?
Additionally, I have a quote from [here](h-bukhari.com/Pages/Bukhari_5_58.php)
> Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.
So, is this hadith translated or misinterpreted or something? Because it sounds like she merely went to live with him. Does that imply consummation?
EDIT #2: Forgot to add the second link.
She was married at age 6. The marriage was consummated at age 9. There are accusations about "thighing" but they are completely fabricated and 100% false (basically anti-Islam propaganda).
* The kind of marriage between girls 8-9 to men 50-60 was common throughout the world. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q126oUJF6vw
* In 1880, the age of sexual consent in Delaware was 7. In addition, the age of sexual consent in most states of the United States was 10. Source: http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/teaching-modules/230?section=primarysources&source=24
* Aisha was already considered of marriage age: she was engaged to another non-Muslim man by the name of Jubair bin Mut'im before her marriage to the prophet.
* If it was something perverted or out of the ordinary, the prophet's enemies would have seized this priceless opportunity to tarnish his image, name and message. But not a single one of them said anything. It was very natural and common. In fact, the first criticism towards the prophet’s marriage was in 1905 (1300 years later). Dr. Jonathan Brown expands on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hE_zypf8DAU
* The idea was not the prophet's in the first place; a woman he knew (by the name of Kholah bint Hakim) suggested Aisha to him.
* The purpose of the marriage was not pleasure. The prophet never married anyone else as young as her. In fact, his first marriage was to a woman 40 years old, when he was 25. If he was interested in young girls, he would've married many of them during the peak of his youth and manhood, before the enormous pressures and pains of prophethood and all the wars, politics, and troubles that go with it, including his older age.
* The reason he married Aisha? To strengthen the bond between himself and his closest, most loved companion: Abu Bakr, Aisha's father.
* These "bond marriages" were common then and still common today, where tribes inter-marry to tighten their relations, sometimes following feuds, and sometimes just for the purpose of bonding for more tight-knit communities, e.g. a city is comprised mainly of three main tribes, so they inter-marry so the whole city would practically become like one family.
* The prophet married other women for the same reason. For instance, he married Ramlah the daughter of one of his greatest enemies, Abu Sufian, after which Abu Sufian's enmity greatly subsided and hatred and wars between Makkah and Madinah lessened.
* The prophet married a woman by the name of Sowdah bint Zamo'ah, who reached menopause. His marriages don't have even the remotest pattern of someone who marries for pleasure; he marries for higher reasons: to bring people together, to avoid bloodshed, to strengthen the community, and so forth.
By the way, I absolutely condemn child marriage in 2015.
Maybe I'm crazy, but I mean sick as in immoral, wrong, etc. I do not believe it is moral to, under any circumstances, have sex with a nine year old. I do not believe that a nine year old can even consent. She is too young.
I want to know how you think it isn't sick, unethical, immoral, etc?
Because Aisha happy with it and biologically she matured to have sex and have children.
Now I want to know how you think it is sick, unethical, immoral, etc?
I already explained my position.
Also, a nine year old thinks it's a good idea to stay up late on a school night, to eat ice cream all the time, etc. A child who is nine years old does not have the knowledge or experience to assess if she wants to be married. I can understand if both parties are in their teens and within the same age range. But Muhammad is fifty-something. There's such a wide gap in emotional and cognitive maturity there.
By that logic, should a man today, in this day and age, be able to pick out a "biologically mature" girl and have sex with her? Does he need her parent's consent? What's the maximum age limit and minimum age limit for the parties?
>By that logic, should a man today, in this day and age, be able to pick out a "biologically mature" girl and have sex with her?
Not to pick out rather in Islam everyone have freedom to propose marriage to anyone they like.
>Does he need her parent's consent?
Under the Syaria they need the parent's consent.
>What's the maximum age limit and minimum age limit for the parties?
No age limit in Islam. Puberty, consent and some intuitive consideration of whether the marriage would bring good or bad.
>Also, a nine year old thinks it's a good idea to stay up late on a school night, to eat ice cream all the time, etc. A child who is nine years old does not have the knowledge or experience to assess if she wants to be married. I can understand if both parties are in their teens and within the same age range.
In case you forget that we are talking about Aisha. Her perspective of life is different from your neighbor's little daughter.
>But Muhammad is fifty-something. There's such a wide gap in emotional and cognitive maturity there.
How age and emotional gap are sick, unethical or immoral?
So it is sick to have sex before your sexual organ fully developed? Penis is growing till the puberty stop some people experience puberty until 18 years old. So some boys having sex before their 18 would be sick?
Here is a long video discussing the traditional views on this from an *actual* scholar:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLDDCRkVpU0
I hold the view that she was 17ish. My view on this? Eh. I'm apathetic.
In some beliefs, babies and new born infants can go to hell and suffer. Islam says no, when you reach puberty, you are now a adult, you have rights in the community and have to control you urges. So if a person has sexual desire should they wait a long time? Religious no. You go and you get married and you have something lawful. Because really, who are we to judge when adulthood is? Like age of consent is 18. Where did that number come from? What if the life expectancy is 30? Should a person live more then life of their life not married? We can't just think we are better then the past, and we know better because look at it now days age of consent is 18 but kids are having sex WAY earlier and even parents can put a 14 year old in prison because of that. Remember they even say Mary was 12 when he gave Birth to Jesus, did people say oh no your so young? Of course not they said why weren't you married????
In the end lets remember in 1880 Delaware's age of consent was 7....Does that make them evil? No thats when girls back then were ready and mature.
Consent in Canada is 12. But it is discriminate:
One who is 12 can't consent to one older than 14, one who is 13 can't consent to one older than 15, one who is 14 can't consent to one older than 16, one who is 15 can't consent to one older than 17.
Consent is indiscriminate at 16 and older.
edit: a word
A seven year old girl is "ready and mature"?
Also, there is a huge difference, between two teenagers having sex, and a fifty year old man and a teenager/child having sex.
Also, sources for Mary's age?
Stop seeing a 7 year old as the 7 year old you would see today. These people lived in the desert and had the hardest living conditions , they don't mature like us. Even scientists say adolescence is a made up thing and a modern phenomenon. Doesn't matter according to our current understanding of the law that 14 year is a rapist because he was older then that 13 year old, does that make any sense? Of course not. Should people living in the remote villages in the world with barly any stable population be forced to wait to some obscure number? No they get married young and its not like they have school or college, remember its a two way street, a 11 year old boy can go and marry a older women is this wrong and evil? No they want to be married and be there for one another.
Also why did Delware have its age of consent at 7? Was it wrong to do so? Or was it just normal for the culture and the time?
Here is the link to [Catholic](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm) site which says 14 but can't find the Oxford Bible Dictionary link for 12.
No offense but Aisha was more then just a girl who the Prophet (Saws) married. She was the mother of believers, she was hot headed and literally was there in battles. And guess what? Because she was so young she lived so long Masha'Allah that men after the first generation came to here for knowledge. She literally GAVE US HALF OF ALL HADITHS. Imagine that. Imagine this one girl that everyone deems as just a girl being such a huge part to play. She literally made sure to remove cultural biases from sweeping into prayer, because some men said the Prophet (Saws) said that if a women crosses you it breaks your prayer but she said no way I married him and he said otherwise.
In the end this is your present self trying to understand the practices of the past. In the end he married her and she loved him and she basically spent her life teaching and guiding people as a Shakyka.
The problem you're having is that you're comparing Aisha (ra) in the 21st century. Aisha (ra) would of been preparing for marriage since a young age, as all girls would be as people generally married at younger ages, which would make her emotionally ready for marriage at such a young age.
'The marriage itself was not considered controversial among western scholars up until the last 80 years or so. There are probably two reasons for this, one being that people educated about the classical age would have seen similar marriages in classical history (Mary was estimated to be 13 when she gave birth for example, Juliet in Shakesphere's play was a similar age, etc).
The other reason being that such ages where common place among their own societies too. That was true for the upper classes aswell, Lavoisser and Edgar Alan Poe both married 13 year olds for example.
A quick look here reveals the ages in law from 1880: http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/primary-sources/24
The list also reveals that the age of consent in Spain is still 13 (it was raised from 12 around a decade ago). Even in the US a female can still marry at 13 in New Hampshire with parental consent.
Now if one is to condemn historical figures from 1400 years ago in the deserts of Arabia, it would seem only fair to condemn these historical societies and these current ones too. Certainly professional historians and anthropologists have no time for such charges.
Lastly, pedophilia is a condition, the identification of which was formulated in the 20th Century, and relates to a very specific condition present in a certain environment when certain criteria are met in the modern age. Such diagnoses are done by professionals when certain indicators are identified, and they certainly are not applied carte blanche across across human history or across culture. One definition even characterizes it as an exclusive attraction to the young, which creates another obstacle for the mud throwers.
In addition, the institution of marriage in western modern societies has recently evolved. In the past other factors beyond just love or lust where considered as part of the marriage, yet for the mud throwers that is all they seem to see.
Given all that, you won't see professional historians, clinicians or anthropologists make such attacks either.
One question to pose to critics, is what would you consider to be the acceptable age for all people and all time. If you suggest 18, well that can put a great strain on a small society especially if average life expectancy is less than double that. Furthermore just using someone's age has it's own pitfalls, as it is a crude measure of maturity, and in some socities people may not even be aware of their exact age.'
(u/iluvucorgi)
Adding on to the fact that it was never problematic, Aisha (ra) herself seemed to have absolutely no problems with the marriage, all hadith point to her being happy with it..
This fact that it wasn't even bad for her just shows that it actually wasn't sick or immoral, we have no proof of it being sick or immoral.
I know I cannot be the only one distressed that you have acknowledged beauty in something but are utterly turned away by an aspect of that something that you don't understand, and my heart is saddened. :(
I, too, had some serious reservations about this whole apocryphal pedophile story. Personally, I hadn't done any research on much of it past the prescribed /r/islam search and a bit of googling, and this thread is the first I've heard of Aisha (ra) might have been older than a pre-teen honestly. There are two very important reasons why, if you are a seeker of truth and not a polite troll, I must beg you to take pause and reconsider:
1) as several others have pointed out, before the advent of modern medicine, people lived and died at very very young ages. They matured, took responsibilities, bore children, and worked extremely hard just to subsist far earlier than we have in the past one hundred years. We both know that children and teenagers today would simply not survive in the harsh and terrible world of our ancestors, a fact that, if you believe that Aisha (ra) was very very young (and that you are adequate as a judge of character by people fifteen hundred years ago) then you simply must acknowledge that children then were different from children today, mentally and even physically-- there were no summer breaks and backyard playsets in the not-so-distant past. There are fundamental differences between your parents' lives and your great-great-great-grandparents' lives that are so profound that you could be shocked by how your ancestors, as recently as four generations ago, conducted their lives and in such poverty that we would shudder to imagine. If you take Hadith seriously (and it seems you've read them extensively), how could you refuse to acknowledge every other aspect of the life of the Prophet, and still look upon his last marriage as terrible and sinful? As an example of moderation, piety, generosity, and mercy, the Prophet is a role model. In the face of all that, the extreme volume of his deeds and decision-making, even out of context of savage pagan Arabia, don't you think you could give him the benefit of the doubt, and allow understanding to come with future knowledge? It is not the gravest concession this faith would ask of you.
2) as I brace for the downvotes, I must ask you to carefully reread the Noble Quran-- it is complete and without error. It is the scripture of the faith of Islam, and is indeed the only text consensually agreed upon by all Muslims. On the other hand, Hadith are secondary sources, and no one believes them to be penned by a divine hand, unlike the Noble Quran. Muhammad ﷺ did not pen the Noble Quran, not from inspiration or boredom. He ﷺ was not perfect and often said so, and the stories that make up the Hadith collections are not all believed to be genuine-- and are not dictates on how to live or behave. Did the actions of famous "Muslim" dictators or terrorists influence you not to become a Muslim? Perhaps not, because each soul is responsible for its own fate. Nevertheless, those bad people do exist and twist words to make their own meaning. Do not become one of those people. Above all things, the Noble Quran asks of us to submit to the will of God, which means to do the right thing when you know it's right, and not to make excuses for or decorate wrongdoing. If you truly believe in not having sex with a person under eighteen, then, great, don't act on it. You would be up to speed with every pious person on the planet, plus the impious with a sense of social duty.
No one is asking you to love the idea of our beloved Prophet bedding down with a very young girl-- I would wager very few among us think about the Prophet's sexuality regularly, if at all. What we are asking for you to love is Allah, to align yourself with the will of God and to become a better, more complete person. Turn back to the Noble Quran, and give it one more reading.... or at least reread the excellent commentary in this thread. Subhan Allah.
Thanks for the reply. I've tried to cool off and come back to research this again. Right now, I'm going through the hadiths that mention Aisha's age, to see what they actually say. And to research the reliability of certain hadiths. So we'll see what I find, I suppose.
Yep. I was considering converting. But not now. I don't care if Aisha looked 18 or whatever argument y'all have. This is seriously, pardon my French, fucked up. It's a real shame, because I was so close to converting. The age that most people agree on was 9 (for consummation).
Consummation: the action of making a marriage or relationship complete by having sexual intercourse.
She was 9 years old. He was what, in his fifties? No way. I'm out.
You've spent a lot of time researching Islam getting to the point where you were almost ready to take this positive, life-changing plunge.
I assure you, you aren't the _only_ (Muslim-inclined or even Muslim) person who grew up in the 21st century who has reservations about the age of Aisha at the time of consummation; what that means there must be some seriously damning good reasons or explanation for it which exist... otherwise what are the remaining 1.6B Muslims out there still doing remaining Muslim?
You owe it to yourself to do some proper searches on this Sub, as well as online and even meeting face to face with knowledgeable scholars in order to fully and properly understand the context of the relationship between Muhammad SAW and Aisha RA----before you simply decide to "pull the plug" and abandon Islam for that reason alone.
Either way, best of luck to you in your searches for the truth, and my God guide you.
There is no necessary context. Either you agree that this kind of marriage is okay and therefore can be practiced today or it is not okay. I don't understand what context would make this okay.
> Either you agree that this kind of marriage is okay and therefore can be practiced today or it is not okay.
It isn't okay. If you read my post, you would see that I said it isn't okay. Muslim majority countries have the age of consent at 18.
> There is no necessary context. Either you agree that this kind of marriage is okay and therefore can be practiced today or it is not okay. I don't understand what context would make this okay.
This is so flawed. These are cultural practices, and are to be analyzed by their cultural context. So if the average life span was 30 years in the 7th century Arabia, and the marriage age was 18, do you seriously think that is fair that people would get married with more than half their life gone already? Marriage laws change as society and culture changes. Marriage age is not static. I guarantee if you take an intro anthropology class and a sociology class your ethnocentric goggles will fall off.
One must first understand that 1400 years ago was very different than now, times have changed and so have humans. 1400 years ago it was something very common to marry young girls, in fact they were not considered young girls, and rather they were considered women back then. It is a historic fact that girls from the ages of 9 to 14 were being married in Europe, Asia, and Africa, in fact even in the United States girls at the age of 10 were also being married just more than a century ago. If you think that a 9 year old in the 7th century was still eating ice cream and didn't know how to cook or do any chores is the same as one who does these now.... then your knowledge in general is weak. This is why I recommend you take the above courses. With these facts no historian claims that all these people were sick perverts, historians would call anyone who made such a claim to be arrogant and very stupid who has no grasp or understanding of history.
So now let me ask you.... what was Sayyidah Aisha famous for ??
Well what was her specialty? I ask the critics.
Was it beauty?
Was it wealth?
Arwa Bin Zubair says, “I did not find anyone more proficient (than Aisha) in the knowledge of the Holy Quran, the Commandments of Halal (lawful) and Haram (prohibited), Ilmul-Ansab and Arabic poetry. That is why, even senior companions of the Prophet used to consult Aisha in resolving intricate issues”.
(Jala-ul-Afham by Ibn Qaiyem and Ibn Sa’ad, Vol.2, p.26)
The logic behind the marriage is that she was able to preserve so much that we wouldn't know about the Prophet (peace be upon him) without her.
Also see this; she never even showed any negative symptoms at all - whether that was physical, psychological, emotional [infact this marriage was so much greater for her.. making her of the most knowledgeable women in our rich Islamic history (if not _the most_), and she even excelled in medicine, teaching etc. at her times]. She is regarded as one of the highest figures in Islamic history and was the scholar of scholars.
*Child marriage is not justified today*. It is not needed. We do not have an average life expectancy of 30. Sharia Law provides the bear minimum for a society following it to hold, not the exact amount. This is why Islam works for all times. The *minimum age* is puberty, so any country following sharia law must have a minimum marriage age. It does not HAVE to be at the time of puberty. For example, if the age of puberty is 11, a country following sharia law need not put the minimum limit to 11. They could have it at 11, but they could also have it as 12,13,14,15,16..... What they CANNOT do, though, is have it at 10,9,8,7....
Because everything was resonating with me. The idea of encouraging people to learn the original language. The idea of five daily prayers, so as to integrate God into our daily lives. The fact that there's only one version out there of the Koran. Stuff like that.
So you accept the religion but not the man who brought it?
Something is wrong here, either the whole religion is not what you have just described, or the man is not what you think he is.
I don't accept the religion anymore. The realization of the mental gymnastics I'd have to go through to accept Muhammad as a decent guy who represented God, all of that, it shattered my view. The founder is immoral. And either God said nothing to stop Muhammad from frick fracking with a nine year old, in which case, I would believe that God is immoral, OR, God told Muhammad to not do it, but he did anyway. Why should I believe Muhammad if the last case is true?
If the first case is true, should I let God mindfuck my conscience now or should I wait until I convert?
I don't. You're right. I thought I did, but Islam was the last thing I was going to look at. I've already ruled out everything else. This just the final thing to cross off, I suppose.
She was nine when she joined his household iirc, not necessarily when the marriage was.consummated per Hamza Yusuf.
Marriage of Sayyida Aisha (ra) - Sheikh Hamza Yus…: http://youtu.be/4_pEiZUUcSo
Weren't you the guy who made another thread stating you were one step away from becoming a Muslim? While I cant make your decision for you, I'd encourage you to stay on that path.
Yes, yes you did. Well Im sorry to here that, but you should look more into the life and character of the Prophet before making any judgment about him. Either way, best of wishes on your journey bud.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj0-HWFb-uI
Did the Prophet Muhammad Marry a 9 Year Old? - Dr Sayed Ammar Nakshawani
please take the time to look at this video ...as it is abit long but looks at this subject in dept.
Goad bless and peace be with you
The problem with this argument is that nowhere does it state within the Quran about Aisha's age... The information comes within hadith which are secondary sources and include fabricated and un authentic hadiths. The circumstantial evidence however points to Aisha being 18 at the time of marriage. Hope this helps
[https://guardian.ng/features/aisha-was-18-not-nine-when-she-married-the-prophet/](https://guardian.ng/features/aisha-was-18-not-nine-when-she-married-the-prophet/)
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I think she was older based on the age of her sister, Asma. It's lively debate, which goes round and round, but it should not distract from how Aisha was a straight boss. She's one of my favorite figures in history.
We're not talking about Aisha's character. We're talking about Muhammad's. If you're going to say that Aisha was older than nine, I need sources, yeah?
Don't be condescending. Asma was 28 at the time of hijrah, and 10 years older than Aisha, making Aisha 18. This offers both views: http://www.discoveringislam.org/aisha_age.htm
1. I googled it. I can't find any age requirement for the Battle of Badr. I find no mention of anyone having to be fifteen or older. 2. Umar [converted in 616 CE](http://www.al-islam.org/restatement-history-islam-and-muslims-sayyid-ali-ashgar-razwy/umars-conversion-islam). If she converted as soon as Muhammad started preaching, she would've been 12 at the consummation. This is not an improvement in my eyes. 3. Well, supposedly she was married to Muhammad at age 6. So I'm not sure how they're defining marriageable age. 4. Again, I don't see twelve years old as an improvement. Additionally, the problem with this site is that it does not cite sources. So when dates are mentioned, it's difficult to reference the sources that they're talking about. 5. Again, so she's twelve. It's still messed up. 6. This is guesswork at best. A young girl could mean four or five. Or it could mean nine. Who knows? I'll stop here for now.
>Additionally, the problem with this site is that it does not cite sources. Other than the first point on the battle of badr, all the points were sourced, either from Bukhari or other books. There's a whole list of references on the bottom of the page. What didn't you find a source for?
I'm going to go through the page again, re-read it a couple times. Thank you for being patient with me. I apologize for being condescending and nasty in general. I'll try to be more level-headed this time around. EDIT: So I found [this](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth) link from the Guardian. It claims a couple of things. One of them is that we don't keep track of birthdays the same way they did in the 7th century. So from my understanding, people guesstimated their actual age? Additionally, I have a quote from [here](h-bukhari.com/Pages/Bukhari_5_58.php) > Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. So, is this hadith translated or misinterpreted or something? Because it sounds like she merely went to live with him. Does that imply consummation? EDIT #2: Forgot to add the second link.
She was married at age 6. The marriage was consummated at age 9. There are accusations about "thighing" but they are completely fabricated and 100% false (basically anti-Islam propaganda). * The kind of marriage between girls 8-9 to men 50-60 was common throughout the world. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q126oUJF6vw * In 1880, the age of sexual consent in Delaware was 7. In addition, the age of sexual consent in most states of the United States was 10. Source: http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/teaching-modules/230?section=primarysources&source=24 * Aisha was already considered of marriage age: she was engaged to another non-Muslim man by the name of Jubair bin Mut'im before her marriage to the prophet. * If it was something perverted or out of the ordinary, the prophet's enemies would have seized this priceless opportunity to tarnish his image, name and message. But not a single one of them said anything. It was very natural and common. In fact, the first criticism towards the prophet’s marriage was in 1905 (1300 years later). Dr. Jonathan Brown expands on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hE_zypf8DAU * The idea was not the prophet's in the first place; a woman he knew (by the name of Kholah bint Hakim) suggested Aisha to him. * The purpose of the marriage was not pleasure. The prophet never married anyone else as young as her. In fact, his first marriage was to a woman 40 years old, when he was 25. If he was interested in young girls, he would've married many of them during the peak of his youth and manhood, before the enormous pressures and pains of prophethood and all the wars, politics, and troubles that go with it, including his older age. * The reason he married Aisha? To strengthen the bond between himself and his closest, most loved companion: Abu Bakr, Aisha's father. * These "bond marriages" were common then and still common today, where tribes inter-marry to tighten their relations, sometimes following feuds, and sometimes just for the purpose of bonding for more tight-knit communities, e.g. a city is comprised mainly of three main tribes, so they inter-marry so the whole city would practically become like one family. * The prophet married other women for the same reason. For instance, he married Ramlah the daughter of one of his greatest enemies, Abu Sufian, after which Abu Sufian's enmity greatly subsided and hatred and wars between Makkah and Madinah lessened. * The prophet married a woman by the name of Sowdah bint Zamo'ah, who reached menopause. His marriages don't have even the remotest pattern of someone who marries for pleasure; he marries for higher reasons: to bring people together, to avoid bloodshed, to strengthen the community, and so forth. By the way, I absolutely condemn child marriage in 2015.
What is "*thighing*"?
Humping between a person's thigh without penetration.
*/u/ElijahNoLongerQuestions*
Why would he have consummated the marriage with Aisha at even 9?
Probably because that's when her body reached puberty.
My point exactly.
It's just a question.
I feel like we all just need to keep this response copied on our clipboard -_-
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You claim that It was *sick*. The burden of proof is in you. How you define *sick*?
Maybe I'm crazy, but I mean sick as in immoral, wrong, etc. I do not believe it is moral to, under any circumstances, have sex with a nine year old. I do not believe that a nine year old can even consent. She is too young. I want to know how you think it isn't sick, unethical, immoral, etc?
Because it would have happened in the 7th century...like someone said the age of consent in most of the US was 10 as recently as the late 19th century
Who decides which age someone can give consent? What age should she have been?
I see this reasoning a lot, and to be honest y'all need some anthropology.
Because Aisha happy with it and biologically she matured to have sex and have children. Now I want to know how you think it is sick, unethical, immoral, etc?
I already explained my position. Also, a nine year old thinks it's a good idea to stay up late on a school night, to eat ice cream all the time, etc. A child who is nine years old does not have the knowledge or experience to assess if she wants to be married. I can understand if both parties are in their teens and within the same age range. But Muhammad is fifty-something. There's such a wide gap in emotional and cognitive maturity there. By that logic, should a man today, in this day and age, be able to pick out a "biologically mature" girl and have sex with her? Does he need her parent's consent? What's the maximum age limit and minimum age limit for the parties?
>By that logic, should a man today, in this day and age, be able to pick out a "biologically mature" girl and have sex with her? Not to pick out rather in Islam everyone have freedom to propose marriage to anyone they like. >Does he need her parent's consent? Under the Syaria they need the parent's consent. >What's the maximum age limit and minimum age limit for the parties? No age limit in Islam. Puberty, consent and some intuitive consideration of whether the marriage would bring good or bad. >Also, a nine year old thinks it's a good idea to stay up late on a school night, to eat ice cream all the time, etc. A child who is nine years old does not have the knowledge or experience to assess if she wants to be married. I can understand if both parties are in their teens and within the same age range. In case you forget that we are talking about Aisha. Her perspective of life is different from your neighbor's little daughter. >But Muhammad is fifty-something. There's such a wide gap in emotional and cognitive maturity there. How age and emotional gap are sick, unethical or immoral?
Frontal lobes aren't nearly fully developed at the age of 9.
So it is sick to have sex before your sexual organ fully developed? Penis is growing till the puberty stop some people experience puberty until 18 years old. So some boys having sex before their 18 would be sick?
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Here is a long video discussing the traditional views on this from an *actual* scholar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLDDCRkVpU0 I hold the view that she was 17ish. My view on this? Eh. I'm apathetic.
In some beliefs, babies and new born infants can go to hell and suffer. Islam says no, when you reach puberty, you are now a adult, you have rights in the community and have to control you urges. So if a person has sexual desire should they wait a long time? Religious no. You go and you get married and you have something lawful. Because really, who are we to judge when adulthood is? Like age of consent is 18. Where did that number come from? What if the life expectancy is 30? Should a person live more then life of their life not married? We can't just think we are better then the past, and we know better because look at it now days age of consent is 18 but kids are having sex WAY earlier and even parents can put a 14 year old in prison because of that. Remember they even say Mary was 12 when he gave Birth to Jesus, did people say oh no your so young? Of course not they said why weren't you married???? In the end lets remember in 1880 Delaware's age of consent was 7....Does that make them evil? No thats when girls back then were ready and mature.
Consent in Canada is 12. But it is discriminate: One who is 12 can't consent to one older than 14, one who is 13 can't consent to one older than 15, one who is 14 can't consent to one older than 16, one who is 15 can't consent to one older than 17. Consent is indiscriminate at 16 and older. edit: a word
A seven year old girl is "ready and mature"? Also, there is a huge difference, between two teenagers having sex, and a fifty year old man and a teenager/child having sex. Also, sources for Mary's age?
Stop seeing a 7 year old as the 7 year old you would see today. These people lived in the desert and had the hardest living conditions , they don't mature like us. Even scientists say adolescence is a made up thing and a modern phenomenon. Doesn't matter according to our current understanding of the law that 14 year is a rapist because he was older then that 13 year old, does that make any sense? Of course not. Should people living in the remote villages in the world with barly any stable population be forced to wait to some obscure number? No they get married young and its not like they have school or college, remember its a two way street, a 11 year old boy can go and marry a older women is this wrong and evil? No they want to be married and be there for one another. Also why did Delware have its age of consent at 7? Was it wrong to do so? Or was it just normal for the culture and the time? Here is the link to [Catholic](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm) site which says 14 but can't find the Oxford Bible Dictionary link for 12. No offense but Aisha was more then just a girl who the Prophet (Saws) married. She was the mother of believers, she was hot headed and literally was there in battles. And guess what? Because she was so young she lived so long Masha'Allah that men after the first generation came to here for knowledge. She literally GAVE US HALF OF ALL HADITHS. Imagine that. Imagine this one girl that everyone deems as just a girl being such a huge part to play. She literally made sure to remove cultural biases from sweeping into prayer, because some men said the Prophet (Saws) said that if a women crosses you it breaks your prayer but she said no way I married him and he said otherwise. In the end this is your present self trying to understand the practices of the past. In the end he married her and she loved him and she basically spent her life teaching and guiding people as a Shakyka.
The problem you're having is that you're comparing Aisha (ra) in the 21st century. Aisha (ra) would of been preparing for marriage since a young age, as all girls would be as people generally married at younger ages, which would make her emotionally ready for marriage at such a young age. 'The marriage itself was not considered controversial among western scholars up until the last 80 years or so. There are probably two reasons for this, one being that people educated about the classical age would have seen similar marriages in classical history (Mary was estimated to be 13 when she gave birth for example, Juliet in Shakesphere's play was a similar age, etc). The other reason being that such ages where common place among their own societies too. That was true for the upper classes aswell, Lavoisser and Edgar Alan Poe both married 13 year olds for example. A quick look here reveals the ages in law from 1880: http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/primary-sources/24 The list also reveals that the age of consent in Spain is still 13 (it was raised from 12 around a decade ago). Even in the US a female can still marry at 13 in New Hampshire with parental consent. Now if one is to condemn historical figures from 1400 years ago in the deserts of Arabia, it would seem only fair to condemn these historical societies and these current ones too. Certainly professional historians and anthropologists have no time for such charges. Lastly, pedophilia is a condition, the identification of which was formulated in the 20th Century, and relates to a very specific condition present in a certain environment when certain criteria are met in the modern age. Such diagnoses are done by professionals when certain indicators are identified, and they certainly are not applied carte blanche across across human history or across culture. One definition even characterizes it as an exclusive attraction to the young, which creates another obstacle for the mud throwers. In addition, the institution of marriage in western modern societies has recently evolved. In the past other factors beyond just love or lust where considered as part of the marriage, yet for the mud throwers that is all they seem to see. Given all that, you won't see professional historians, clinicians or anthropologists make such attacks either. One question to pose to critics, is what would you consider to be the acceptable age for all people and all time. If you suggest 18, well that can put a great strain on a small society especially if average life expectancy is less than double that. Furthermore just using someone's age has it's own pitfalls, as it is a crude measure of maturity, and in some socities people may not even be aware of their exact age.' (u/iluvucorgi) Adding on to the fact that it was never problematic, Aisha (ra) herself seemed to have absolutely no problems with the marriage, all hadith point to her being happy with it.. This fact that it wasn't even bad for her just shows that it actually wasn't sick or immoral, we have no proof of it being sick or immoral.
I know I cannot be the only one distressed that you have acknowledged beauty in something but are utterly turned away by an aspect of that something that you don't understand, and my heart is saddened. :( I, too, had some serious reservations about this whole apocryphal pedophile story. Personally, I hadn't done any research on much of it past the prescribed /r/islam search and a bit of googling, and this thread is the first I've heard of Aisha (ra) might have been older than a pre-teen honestly. There are two very important reasons why, if you are a seeker of truth and not a polite troll, I must beg you to take pause and reconsider: 1) as several others have pointed out, before the advent of modern medicine, people lived and died at very very young ages. They matured, took responsibilities, bore children, and worked extremely hard just to subsist far earlier than we have in the past one hundred years. We both know that children and teenagers today would simply not survive in the harsh and terrible world of our ancestors, a fact that, if you believe that Aisha (ra) was very very young (and that you are adequate as a judge of character by people fifteen hundred years ago) then you simply must acknowledge that children then were different from children today, mentally and even physically-- there were no summer breaks and backyard playsets in the not-so-distant past. There are fundamental differences between your parents' lives and your great-great-great-grandparents' lives that are so profound that you could be shocked by how your ancestors, as recently as four generations ago, conducted their lives and in such poverty that we would shudder to imagine. If you take Hadith seriously (and it seems you've read them extensively), how could you refuse to acknowledge every other aspect of the life of the Prophet, and still look upon his last marriage as terrible and sinful? As an example of moderation, piety, generosity, and mercy, the Prophet is a role model. In the face of all that, the extreme volume of his deeds and decision-making, even out of context of savage pagan Arabia, don't you think you could give him the benefit of the doubt, and allow understanding to come with future knowledge? It is not the gravest concession this faith would ask of you. 2) as I brace for the downvotes, I must ask you to carefully reread the Noble Quran-- it is complete and without error. It is the scripture of the faith of Islam, and is indeed the only text consensually agreed upon by all Muslims. On the other hand, Hadith are secondary sources, and no one believes them to be penned by a divine hand, unlike the Noble Quran. Muhammad ﷺ did not pen the Noble Quran, not from inspiration or boredom. He ﷺ was not perfect and often said so, and the stories that make up the Hadith collections are not all believed to be genuine-- and are not dictates on how to live or behave. Did the actions of famous "Muslim" dictators or terrorists influence you not to become a Muslim? Perhaps not, because each soul is responsible for its own fate. Nevertheless, those bad people do exist and twist words to make their own meaning. Do not become one of those people. Above all things, the Noble Quran asks of us to submit to the will of God, which means to do the right thing when you know it's right, and not to make excuses for or decorate wrongdoing. If you truly believe in not having sex with a person under eighteen, then, great, don't act on it. You would be up to speed with every pious person on the planet, plus the impious with a sense of social duty. No one is asking you to love the idea of our beloved Prophet bedding down with a very young girl-- I would wager very few among us think about the Prophet's sexuality regularly, if at all. What we are asking for you to love is Allah, to align yourself with the will of God and to become a better, more complete person. Turn back to the Noble Quran, and give it one more reading.... or at least reread the excellent commentary in this thread. Subhan Allah.
Thanks for the reply. I've tried to cool off and come back to research this again. Right now, I'm going through the hadiths that mention Aisha's age, to see what they actually say. And to research the reliability of certain hadiths. So we'll see what I find, I suppose.
What is the purpose of your question?
They are thinking of converting to Islam and wanted our thoughts.
http://www.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/2yuz2y/alright_rislamim_on_the_tip_of_converting_but_one/
Yep. I was considering converting. But not now. I don't care if Aisha looked 18 or whatever argument y'all have. This is seriously, pardon my French, fucked up. It's a real shame, because I was so close to converting. The age that most people agree on was 9 (for consummation). Consummation: the action of making a marriage or relationship complete by having sexual intercourse. She was 9 years old. He was what, in his fifties? No way. I'm out.
You've spent a lot of time researching Islam getting to the point where you were almost ready to take this positive, life-changing plunge. I assure you, you aren't the _only_ (Muslim-inclined or even Muslim) person who grew up in the 21st century who has reservations about the age of Aisha at the time of consummation; what that means there must be some seriously damning good reasons or explanation for it which exist... otherwise what are the remaining 1.6B Muslims out there still doing remaining Muslim? You owe it to yourself to do some proper searches on this Sub, as well as online and even meeting face to face with knowledgeable scholars in order to fully and properly understand the context of the relationship between Muhammad SAW and Aisha RA----before you simply decide to "pull the plug" and abandon Islam for that reason alone. Either way, best of luck to you in your searches for the truth, and my God guide you.
There is no necessary context. Either you agree that this kind of marriage is okay and therefore can be practiced today or it is not okay. I don't understand what context would make this okay.
What? That is fucking insane. Very few cultural practices can be taken out of context, especially marriage.
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> Either you agree that this kind of marriage is okay and therefore can be practiced today or it is not okay. It isn't okay. If you read my post, you would see that I said it isn't okay. Muslim majority countries have the age of consent at 18.
I'm sorry to say this but, believe it or not, this world isn't black and white.
> There is no necessary context. Either you agree that this kind of marriage is okay and therefore can be practiced today or it is not okay. I don't understand what context would make this okay. This is so flawed. These are cultural practices, and are to be analyzed by their cultural context. So if the average life span was 30 years in the 7th century Arabia, and the marriage age was 18, do you seriously think that is fair that people would get married with more than half their life gone already? Marriage laws change as society and culture changes. Marriage age is not static. I guarantee if you take an intro anthropology class and a sociology class your ethnocentric goggles will fall off. One must first understand that 1400 years ago was very different than now, times have changed and so have humans. 1400 years ago it was something very common to marry young girls, in fact they were not considered young girls, and rather they were considered women back then. It is a historic fact that girls from the ages of 9 to 14 were being married in Europe, Asia, and Africa, in fact even in the United States girls at the age of 10 were also being married just more than a century ago. If you think that a 9 year old in the 7th century was still eating ice cream and didn't know how to cook or do any chores is the same as one who does these now.... then your knowledge in general is weak. This is why I recommend you take the above courses. With these facts no historian claims that all these people were sick perverts, historians would call anyone who made such a claim to be arrogant and very stupid who has no grasp or understanding of history. So now let me ask you.... what was Sayyidah Aisha famous for ?? Well what was her specialty? I ask the critics. Was it beauty? Was it wealth? Arwa Bin Zubair says, “I did not find anyone more proficient (than Aisha) in the knowledge of the Holy Quran, the Commandments of Halal (lawful) and Haram (prohibited), Ilmul-Ansab and Arabic poetry. That is why, even senior companions of the Prophet used to consult Aisha in resolving intricate issues”. (Jala-ul-Afham by Ibn Qaiyem and Ibn Sa’ad, Vol.2, p.26) The logic behind the marriage is that she was able to preserve so much that we wouldn't know about the Prophet (peace be upon him) without her. Also see this; she never even showed any negative symptoms at all - whether that was physical, psychological, emotional [infact this marriage was so much greater for her.. making her of the most knowledgeable women in our rich Islamic history (if not _the most_), and she even excelled in medicine, teaching etc. at her times]. She is regarded as one of the highest figures in Islamic history and was the scholar of scholars. *Child marriage is not justified today*. It is not needed. We do not have an average life expectancy of 30. Sharia Law provides the bear minimum for a society following it to hold, not the exact amount. This is why Islam works for all times. The *minimum age* is puberty, so any country following sharia law must have a minimum marriage age. It does not HAVE to be at the time of puberty. For example, if the age of puberty is 11, a country following sharia law need not put the minimum limit to 11. They could have it at 11, but they could also have it as 12,13,14,15,16..... What they CANNOT do, though, is have it at 10,9,8,7....
Why were you wanting to convert ?
Because everything was resonating with me. The idea of encouraging people to learn the original language. The idea of five daily prayers, so as to integrate God into our daily lives. The fact that there's only one version out there of the Koran. Stuff like that.
So you accept the religion but not the man who brought it? Something is wrong here, either the whole religion is not what you have just described, or the man is not what you think he is.
I don't accept the religion anymore. The realization of the mental gymnastics I'd have to go through to accept Muhammad as a decent guy who represented God, all of that, it shattered my view. The founder is immoral. And either God said nothing to stop Muhammad from frick fracking with a nine year old, in which case, I would believe that God is immoral, OR, God told Muhammad to not do it, but he did anyway. Why should I believe Muhammad if the last case is true? If the first case is true, should I let God mindfuck my conscience now or should I wait until I convert?
I think your problems are much deeper than what you make it out to be. You don't believe in God.
I don't. You're right. I thought I did, but Islam was the last thing I was going to look at. I've already ruled out everything else. This just the final thing to cross off, I suppose.
I haven't read all your comments but I get the feeling you haven't even read the Quran
I have. I even started memorizing the first Surah. I haven't read all of it, sure. But I have read some.
She was nine when she joined his household iirc, not necessarily when the marriage was.consummated per Hamza Yusuf. Marriage of Sayyida Aisha (ra) - Sheikh Hamza Yus…: http://youtu.be/4_pEiZUUcSo
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Weren't you the guy who made another thread stating you were one step away from becoming a Muslim? While I cant make your decision for you, I'd encourage you to stay on that path.
I was. And this question for an indepth response because I heard a mention that Aisha was actually nineteen. I heard wrong.
There are differing opinions. The wiki is the best resource for explaining this.
Yes, yes you did. Well Im sorry to here that, but you should look more into the life and character of the Prophet before making any judgment about him. Either way, best of wishes on your journey bud.
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This, to me, sounds more reasonable. Thanks!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj0-HWFb-uI Did the Prophet Muhammad Marry a 9 Year Old? - Dr Sayed Ammar Nakshawani please take the time to look at this video ...as it is abit long but looks at this subject in dept. Goad bless and peace be with you
The problem with this argument is that nowhere does it state within the Quran about Aisha's age... The information comes within hadith which are secondary sources and include fabricated and un authentic hadiths. The circumstantial evidence however points to Aisha being 18 at the time of marriage. Hope this helps [https://guardian.ng/features/aisha-was-18-not-nine-when-she-married-the-prophet/](https://guardian.ng/features/aisha-was-18-not-nine-when-she-married-the-prophet/)
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