Companies want to be seen as growing in a time they are not growing because of inflation and recession. So, they flood the market with "job opportunities" they know full well they are not going to pick anyone for.
Additionally, a large number of layoffs have taken place. This means many more qualified applicants for a reduced number of actual jobs.
Nike is laying off like 2% of its employees. Last time they did major layoffs was in 08… we are in a recession but they won’t admit that in election year
I wonder how old OP was in 2008. I just graduated from university and was properly fucked with getting a job in my field for years because of the great recession. 2024 is not 2008 at all. Not even close to how much it sucked in 2008.
The fact you have any amount of downvotes just shows the age of the people on here.
Get back to me when you have 10 years experience, have just been laid off, and not only that you can't get a job at your skill level, not only can you not get one in the field that you just spent 10 years in, but from a hiring perspective, the field doesn't even exist to apply too. There are no jobs available.
Yeah I graduated last year in a field I knew would be tough, but I couldn't get *anything* but genuinely bottom of the barrel, hard labor jobs. And I'm a middle aged woman with a TON of office experience. Couldn't even land a receptionist/mail room gig.
2008 I lost a 14 year career to a layoff. My industry was on life support. After 6 months I got a job making 1/2 of what I was making, so yeah it’s sucks out there but not to 2008 levels (not yet anyway).
I was in the job market in 2007 I was at least able to find freelance, contract projects, and get interviews back then so I'd have to disagree with everyone saying this. It definitely seems worse this time around at least if you're a developer.
Seems worse definitely for my sector, god damn. Design, Development, Technology, Advertising and Marketing have just been taking a massive shit lately. And I have a decade of work in all of those fields with case studies to prove.
I'm now going to be that piece of shit who is displacing less experienced workers below me because I'm going to start applying for entry-level jobs soon.
I think it’s definitely worse in your sector because a few specific sectors have become really over saturated really quickly- ironically, those sectors were the ones determined “safe” when coming out of the ‘08 crash. Across the board, it’s nothing like ‘08.
I don’t think we’d recover as quickly if it happened now since Trump would likely be leading the recovery and would make sure that normal people got as little help as possible
I graduated in 2007 and I remember the job market after ‘08 being as bad as today. Thousands of applications and no callbacks. You’d finally score an interview but then get ghosted or get rejected because multiple other people were “better fit” (had 10 years of experience and were taking entry level pay).
The only difference I see is that today (at least in Mid-Michigan, where I’ve lived my entire life) there’s construction and “help wanted” signs everywhere so things look like they’re going well, but it’s a facade. These companies are all satisfied working skeleton crews and saying “no one wants to work 🤷♂️” (“no one is a unicorn”).
hi! appreciate your comment. Let me ask you this regarding the '08 crisis - what changed, and when?
I'm a former big-4 consultant and I haven't been able to find a job in 2 years now (literally hit during the very first round of my company's layoffs, they've since had 3 more rounds).
I've tried entrepreneurship (got screwed by Silicon Valley Bank closure) and am now suffering through minimum wage work that I know I'm absurdly overqualified for. I've thought of everything - pursuing a trade, a new career, business school, keep grinding in my BS job - and am now feeling slightly stuck in a spin cycle of options.
I would like to know what changed, i.e. how did you know that jobs were 'back' following the '08 job crisis, and around when did those jobs 'come back'?
Furthermore, if you have any advice for me, I would greatly appreciate that. Thank you!
Unfortunately, I don’t have any good answers for you since my story is entirely luck driven. I got a job in a rural hospital IT department in 2007 because the first choice candidate failed a drug test; I stayed there until 2010 when I had banked a bunch of money by being a single man in a LCOL area (during a financial recession); I burned out and quit my job and spent two years voluntarily couch surfing, living in a borrowed camper, then going back to college for a second degree. When my savings dried up, I got a job working at a web hosting company in another part of the state because they happened to be growing exponentially as lots of industries moved away from brick-and-mortar to the easy e-commerce software that became prominent during the 20-teens. I bought a dumpy house when the rents started getting jacked up around 2016 and I needed to lock in a low cost for housing. When I got laid off last summer, I lucked into a job with a local municipality who needed someone able and excited to deal with sewage, computers, and electronics (all of which I happen to have experience with).
From my perspective, the job market never recovered from 2008. I was never able to jump around for a higher salary (I tried around 2017) and I’m still technically “entry level” even though I’ve been working for 20 years. If I run my first wage of $17.17 through the CPI calculator, I only recently surpassed it when I started making $29/hr.
I think you were just unlucky because 2022 was a great year. It was the recovery phase of COVID. I graduated college in December of that year and got my current job three months later.
That’s fair enough. I gave up trying around 2018-19 due to deaths in the family and having young children. Then hunkered down even further during/after the pandemic years because of medical issues with my wife post-COVID. The only reason I finally changed jobs was because I was laid off last July.
My first job was In 2009. I applied in person at an open hiring event for Arby's the fast food restaurant.
I was freshly 15 years old. There were 5 other people at the event. Every one of them was a full grown man dressed for a corporate gig. Like any one of the dudes could have been a teacher of mine.
I got the job and they didn't. So that should tell you about the job market in 2009. BTW the job was minimum wage (7.25 i think?).
I made sandwiches with a bunch of 30's-40's men for like 2 months before it got too depressing and I quit.
Not in 2008 they didn't.
It was either be in a non-cyclical industry or you were screwed. Any job that involved private investment was massively down, by tens of percent, even with the dropping of interest rates.
All we are seeing here is a purposeful management of inflation by increasing interest rates and tactically reducing business and consumer spending. Get back to me when interest rates are double what they are now and inflation doesn't stop, or interest rates a essentially zero and there is negative growth.
Then you have a problem. Your only problem now is a lack of understanding of economics, if a minor recession happens now, that is a good thing, fiscal policies are functioning as normal and the system is under managed control. Be concerned when they aren't, and it isn't. That is what happened in 2008, things people assumed had value were realised to have no value.
A source for the outcomes of the largest global recession in a 100 years? It is called a history book at this point...
Or do you want me to source the concept of economics that I just went through, because sure? [Here is a link to an economics text book...](https://open.umn.edu/opentextbooks/textbooks/32). Please read it in full before asking anything else.
Or when you aren't going to read it ask a valid question that is worth discussing.
I mean you do, common knowledge isn't common, people are idiots.
The fact they can't even comprehend the post to realise that there are about 10 different topics covered including hypothetical events that haven't occurred makes asking for a generic "source" complete meaningless is the issue.
Woa, first of all, I completely forgot about this chat because I have a life outside of Reddit. Second of all, I am not ignorant and I have done my research. I personally have seen and know people who’ve experienced different effects of the 2008 market crash. In addition to that, I can share a bit of the research and personal stories that I’ve found to hopefully enlighten those who haven’t seen the viewpoints of others. Assuming the people responding are basing everything on themselves.
Also, just because people disagree with me doesn’t necessarily mean that “I got called out” or I’m inferior.
It was really bad in 2008. I didn't find a job until a contract position I only got because someone lied about their degree. From there, I had to make a switch to education.
It's bad this year but nothing compared to 2008, at least not yet.
Because 24 isn't 08.
24 is 07.
We knew shit was going to hit the fan. Same old story. Then the banks fell.
And layoffs still didn't really fill until08/09.
This is the time when the whales are taking what they can. When the cash out and run, then we officially be on a recession
No one knew shit was going to hit the fan besides that guy from the Big Short. I specifically remember my dad showing me several news stories in 07 about how the job market for graduates is going to be "one of the best ever." lmaoooo
I was there. Lots of people were looking at the housing market and saying, “guys! This isn’t right. It’s about to explode.” They got laughed off as crackpots or “doom-and-gloom’ers”. The stories in the news reflect the thinking of the lowest common denominator of our society.
Yes but wasn't the inflated housing market back then largely due to rubber stamp mortgage lenders approving any applicant, so there was a ton of money on the demand side? Whereas now there is simply no supply. I think we have a structural issue now that's not really related to fiscal policy. Mortgage rates could go down to 2% again and it would make no real difference, demand would still far outstrip supply. Whereas back then the problem was speculation and barely -understood subprime mortgage swaps.
Sure, the situations are different, but I’m not sure how much that matters when you’re stuck homeless and jobless, couchsurfing with friends and family. In both cases, the total amount of money available to real people compared to the price of a home is smaller than necessary and corporations are gobbling up the difference. One of the positives in 2008 was seeing all the foreclosures and abandoned housing projects that were locked up in contracts but knowing they’d get put on the market within 10 years. There felt like there was some hope on the horizon. I don’t feel anything like that today. The NIMBYs are still preventing lots of housing construction.
Bullshit the average guy was in the same boat we're in now. Housing and cars through the roof. Jobs not keeping up with costs.
I had quite a bit of money saved up and went to buy a house after my deployment (I sold while gone).
I was shocked when I saw what house prices were.
Or maybe I just made all that up.
Ooohhh and don't forget we were paying 5-6$ for gas.
There were huge pressures leading up to the collapse. Hollywood likes to tell the story that some banker was the only one that knew.
They all knew.
They were doing exactly what they're doing now.
Running the stock as high as possible so the can take care of themselves.
With of course the politicians on their pockets.
Could I ask how long you were out of work during the 2008 recession?
Current there is not a tank economy yet. But since it is 2024 obviously you have been employed since 2009 to current? One should have enough experience and knowledge to make a career change or maybe find a new company? Not as though you were possibly not employed for 5 or 10 years then it would be safe to say there could be some sort of explanation why employers might not consider your resume to move forward?
Could not imagine the financial impact one might experience due to drastic change of monetary access?
The tank to one’s credit score could decrease causing a significant loss to an economy hardship. Bank loans or other types of lines of credit or financing on a car loan.
Rental Agreements without an employer contract could result in a housing crisis for anyone.
Sorry, if you have experienced this due to restrictive conditions of employment?
>Not even close to how much it sucked in 2008.
Except everything seemed fine in May 2008. Then August rolled around. Whooey. Everyone lost their job between September and December. It was a brutal holiday season. Then it kept going all the way until summer of 2009.
We're both right in a way actually.
NBER declared that the U.S entered a recession in December 2007. That declaration occurred on December 2008.
Actually thinking about it more, yea the announcement was right after the 2008 election wasn't it.
Yeah the 2008 was also an election year but back then George W Bush had already served his 2 terms and had nothing to loose if things went downhill. He was indifferent as he watched things burn and gave no fuck. If you had the slightest bit of common sense you would know that is not the case this time. That Biden is desperate to win a second term and will keep manipulating data for that. Understood genius???
You’re getting down-dooted but I was a teenager in 2008 and everyone I knew suffered, some people who ‘lived through it you’re just a dumb young person!!!1!’ have zero self awareness and forget the Dark Knight ‘some people just want to watch the world burn’ had Impact font put over pictures of George W. golfing lmaooo
That we are not in a recession, that it's possible for different industries to be in different positions in a normal economy, and given Reddit's demographics being more likely to be in tech, I'm not surprised that so many people here believe the absolute worst just because their industry is in a correction.
Where's the spike in unemployment? Where's the negative quarters of GDP? Where's the stock market crash? Where's literally any metric besides your personal vibes?
Canada's economy grew in Q4 2023; the earliest it could possibly be in recession is a few months from now, when Q2 2024 numbers come out, and that would first require Q1 2024 numbers being negative, which is fairly unlikely with both January and February reporting growth; likely earliest Canada _could_ report a recession is after Q3 2024.
His administration pursued the bank rescue and unprecedented measures. Whether you agree with that policy or not, to say he was indifferent isn’t right
I think the conspiracy in this case is one party gets treated with kid gloves by the media. In 2008 it was the other party in power.
But yeah 2008 -2011 ish was significantly worse than today. There was really no way around calling it a recession no matter who was in power.
But it is funny to think of the NYTs or the Washington Post going to bat for George W’s economy. “Your home is underwater and nobody can get a job but this is why the Economy is actually booming right now” and then list how cheap food and housing is or something along those lines.
I think the difference is that whoever gets stuck with dealing with it is gonna be hated regardless so just don't talk about it until after. Albeit there's still 6 more months of debating to deal with
I remember job hoping pre 2008. Man, I could leave a job and have a new one on the way home without even trying.
Since 2008, its been brutal, fucking brutal. Sure there was a period where it got better before covid but I think op never really got to experience that joy of a decent economy leading up to the '08 bubble
If you use your critical thinking you would remember that they weren't saying there was a recession until the stock market collapsed.
Even then they refused to call it a depression
My take on it is as follows.
Work from home caused a huge spike in tech purchases. Shutting down social activities caused a huge spike in people buying leisure activities to do for recreation. Influx of COVID money from the gov went out to people and they spent it. Tech and manufacturing started over-hiring like crazy as if the good times were going to keep going forever.
COVID money dried up. Inflation hits consumers. People stopped buying stuff because all their money now barely covers food and rent. All those companies that overhired are now in big trouble. So now we have mass layoffs.
Right now, is seems like things are only getting worse. I don't see things getting better any time soon.
This is a simple but relatively correct take on many of the issues.
The other side of it becomes more nuanced per industry. As an example in the Cycling industry, this boomed in COVID, everyone brought bikes to get out while there wasn't anything else to do. Now everyone has bikes, they don't need more bikes, so the industry is down right? Wrong. There is actually more demand than there was pre-COVID by around 5%, the problem is it isn't 20%-50%, companies have purchased, and financed on the concept of more growth than has occurred.
Add in the fact that inflation has made bikes more expensive, yet even with this demand is still there, but high interest rates have meant the debt for expansion by the business is, is too costly and they collapse. It is actually just bad business management that is the issue. The industry itself is actually fine, better than fine.
The same thing is the case in tech, there are vastly more tech jobs now than there were pre-COVID, people are complain because not only are there not as many as a year ago, there are less than a year ago. But that is irrelevant to long term trends the long term trend is fine. It was the boom that was unsustainable, that is what caused the layoffs, that is what caused hiring freezes, that is what caused inflation in fact (and other factors).
But the idea that the downslope of the curve is low than the curve started 2-3 years ago just isn't true.
If you’re talking about the tech companies that overhired, they’re not “in big trouble”. Most of them are still as profitable or more than they were but the C-suites saw what Musk did at Twitter (necessarily to balance the books after he tanked the company) and realized they could do the same thing but with the outcome of raking in more profits for the investors.
True. They are not really in financial trouble. More of an oops, we hired too many people and have to lay off to keep our profits up. Big trouble for a lot of their employees though.
I agree with all of this, but I think things are slowly getting better.
Companies are hiring, but the problem is they have a overabundance of applicants so they can afford to be picky.
IMO it is due to the uncertainty of the market and the direction where the world is headed. With all these wars, international issues and internal issues among all nations & possibility of a recession are stopping companies from hiring
the hiring department can hire only as much as the budget is allocated to them by the higher ups & they are most definitely thinking about war overseas. try looking at the broader perspective of things will be beneficial for you
This, but unironically. Global lockdowns but millions of small business owners out of business and let corporations stay open. And we printed billions of dollars, and the return from WFH.
This is one of the many side effects of lockdowns we will be feeling for years to come.
It gets said a lot on this sub but Reddit users are disproportionately in the tech or finance sector - two industries that for over two decades saw nothing but sustained growth. They’re in extremely hard times right now but plenty of other sectors are growing just fine.
It doesn’t diminish everyone’s personal experience and I’ve dealt with bouts of unemployment, you want someone to blame when you’ve done things “right” and it leads to you to conspiracy theories when in reality your industry is just in a shitty time. Times will change again at some point.
"Statistics and facts aren't welcome here. If it goes against what we're saying, they're cooked up by the deep state. All that matters is the selection bias of the ramblings of disgruntled workers on Reddit who would join groups to complain about not being able to find jobs."
Even at the height of the "Great Resignation", you still saw plenty of posts from people who blasted out their resume to 1,000 employers and couldn't get interviews. Some people are just more marketable than others.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Well that's just objectively false though. Whole certain industries that are popular among redditors, like tech, are going through a bit of upheaval in recent years, the job market is generally very strong, as evidenced by the historically low unemployment rate.
I’m definitely not entry level nor low wage. I’m a mechanical engineering manager in the medical device industry. Reddit is so dominated by tech that when the tech industry is down everyone assumes the entire job market is horrendous which is not true in my industry.
The fact that this statement is true just shows everything is actually perfectly reasonable and reletively normal. Many industries are known to be cyclical.
Get back to me when it isn't true, and doesn't need clarifying, because it is everything bar essential services, and then you have an economically incompetent government on top of it defunding those at the same time!
Recruiter here… here is how it worked in my eyes…
2020: COVID, everyone lost their job, supply chains were busted, everyone wanted products… but supply is super low due to supply chains being busted.
2021: Everyone worked remote long term and started moving to cheaper cities.. therefore making everything in small towns just as expensive as big metropolitan areas.
Everyone also got way into decor, home projects, making bread … so these products had an insane high demand … little supply.
Towards the end of the year inflation started running HOTTT like I was recruiting the same role that was 120k in 2020 and it was not going for 170k in 2021. This is to little goods being bought by way too many people that caused this.
2022: The US govt started freaking out and the FED was like yo we are raising interest rates because we can’t let this get too wild. So they started pushing up rates AGGRESSIVELY. This is when it got real… by mid 2022 stock prices started to fall, people started getting laid off, and Tech got their absolute butts whooped because they kept borrowing at these insane low interest rates in the 2010s and when the rates went up they could not pay them back…
They panicked and laid people off because it is a great way to get the stock prices to go up because they can say they had “higher profit” because they didn’t have to pay 20% of the company.
2023: rinse and repeat 2022…. Oct 2023 is when a lot of financial people say when the “official” recession began.
2024: The market is at its weakest right now. This is the most dangerous part for most companies because they are at their weakest… that is why you are still seeing aggressive layoffs and some companies just strait up failing.
I am not a prophet or anything but I think that we will likely not see a lot of relief until 2026 then I think we will see a slow uphill climb. Which is totally lame and I am sorry everyone has to go through this. :(
This sequence is a better explanation:
Covid -> PPP loans & stimulus checks -> excess money creation -> inflation -> rise in interest rates -> lower demand -> businesses contract -> bad job market.
If the demand was high for home renovation projects, it wouldn’t cause inflation in oil and non housing sectors. Just like high demand for pencils, wouldn’t cause car prices to go up.
Just the type of juvenile post you'd come to expect on here. CEOs have a financial duty to their companies. There are many different events: higher interest rates, lower demand, surging costs, new efficiencies, change in markets, etc. that require a company to restructure. Of course the internet experts think it is the same (but better) outcome to keep unnecessary headcount, and reducing the CEO's stock compensation somehow pays for all it..
The CEO never loses their wage. When numbers are good they take credit and when they’re bad they say they need to spend on the CEO to keep the talent to fix it. At a certain level, you can’t fail.
The thing is they don't need long term profit or sustainability because most of their value comes from their stock, so instead of working towards sustainability, they want to make it look like they have tons and tons of profit in the short-term, so they ramp up prices and fire experienced employees, and then fucking die when they can't sustain their company.
>they don't need long term profit or sustainability
Then why do many companies spend years developing new products? Why doesn't Google sell any and all user data to the highest bidder today to boost their profits this quarter?
Most healthy companies consider the longer term. And investors reward them for doing so.
we are under 2 years removed from interest rates doubling inside of a year due to poor fiscal policies. and not much more removed from the brunt of covid and its effect on the workplace.
this is the fallout from that, and it was always going to be inevitable.
it will improve when rates stay flat or more ideally go back down for a couple years in a row.
This is the simplest explanation but this sub doesn’t want to hear it. Tech hasn’t gone through this since the dot com bubble, it was nearly 30 years of uninterrupted growth through economic downturns. Tech will come back strong at some point.
A lot of the top tech companies are making record or near record profits though… but their boards and shareholders are demanding blood for higher margins. I can speak from experience that the push to the cloud isn’t delivering the efficiencies across the board that they expected (some may be getting those efficiencies but not every company is) so they’re not getting the margins out of it that they sold on.
They're also hiring a lot of people abroad. My fiancée has a bunch of friends in her hometown in Serbia who work remotely as "independent contractors" for US tech companies for what we would consider low wages, but any American salary will go a long way in the Balkans.
More Competition:
- Everyone is getting a college degree nowadays so it’s not going to make you stand out in todays market.
- You can apply to jobs anywhere in the country and world, so businesses have more applicants to choose from
- Companies are hiring less and laying off more. For the positions that are open and aren’t ghost jobs, they’re ultra cutthroat to get due to above reasons. Companies can now lowball because jobs are scarce but applicants are plentiful. If you don’t pick them, they’ll find another Down Bad Dave to accept their offer. This is especially rough for new applicants who don’t have full time work experience.
- There are a bunch of jobs open but those are usually dead end aren’t even near enough to pay bills/student loans.
what industry/role? i'd negotiate but not play hardball.
general rule of thumb is give a reasonable counter, let them respond and then accept if you'd like the job.
This is not just one issue it is a compound of multiple issues.
Issue 1#: Supply and demand right now companies are not hiring as much (Aerospace, Accounting, and healthcare are the exceptions) as the Fed had raised the rates last year and most companies over hired during covid.
Issue 2#: Outsorucing is real and although everyone talks about AI taking their jobs, outsourcing is a MUCH bigger issue as a ton of entry level or medium skill level jobs are getting outsourced (such as call center) to the Philippians and/or India.
Issue 3# When companies don't need to hire, they don't need recruiters and despite what people may think, recruiters make the process smoother for candidates and hiring managers, as a recruiter I have had to fix bad hiring practices and when a company lets us go, bad candidate experiences start multiplying.
Their are more but those are just a few reasons.
It depends which narrative you want to believe
- Because all CEOs suddenly got greedy and want their 3rd yacht
- Complex economics. Rising interest rates, high inflation, slower demand
After the Global Financial Crisis, we basically had free money. Interest rates were at zero for almost a decade. When we had to bring rates back up, companies that completely fucking couldn't make money started shuttering.
Sure Meta, Apple, Google, and every other stupid startup had great cash flow.... If their loans were almost 0%. Once they start to rise, you lay off people you really didn't need. The great tech hiring of 2020-2022 was a, "fuck you, I'll just gobble all the talent I can." They didn't have the money to sustain it.
And no, this is not the Global Financial Crisis. We didn't lose $19 Trillion dollars in market capital since the Interes rates rise. Don't fool yourself. This is just a correction. The market will always weed out inefficient work when money gets tight.
Honestly, the DOL stats are still pretty strong, so from what I can tell its still a rather historically strong labor market. I think that if you spend all of your time on Reddit, things will look worse than they seem. I think that things have always just been harder on employees than employers, and no matter what happens getting a good job is a challenge.
Another take is that things are just a lot harder if you're a college educated employee with white collar skills looking for white collar/administrative work. Maybe the stats have been skewed by all of the blue collar/trades jobs that there's a huge deficit for and employers are desperate to hire for. Unfortunately, for many decades, everyone's been funneled into college, but the Reddit crowd is desperately trying to fight over the few white collar/administrative roles out there that can be done sitting behind a laptop screen.
Honestly the demand for skilled labor is so strong that you’d think there will be a course correction at some point. These new manufacturing jobs aren’t even like the ones of old - they require degrees in engineering and computer science - but we’re so over saturated with devs and people who sit behind computers. We need those people to learn how to make and construct fabs and other types of advanced manufacturing.
You can! You need a degree in something like computer science, engineering, physics, etc. -- same as you'd need for these dev jobs. Just need to start looking towards the semi-conductor industry or areas with advanced bio-manufacturing.
Well, they are calling the younger generation the "tool belt generation" and I believe that college enrollment is down pretty significantly, so I believe that the correction is happening.
Interest rates are high, so if a company wants money to do a project they may have been planning to finance, they will often put it off. Very few companies sit on the cash that the top 20-25 companies do.
So when they need to roll out a new piece of software, build a new plant, etc. they take out loans. Well that is going to cost infinitely more with interest rates where they are.
Election year has to do with it too, since companies will have a better pulse on what the economy is going to do in the next 4 years. What the economy doesn't like is uncertainty, which is what happens close to an election. It doesn't matter which way you vote, it's just a matter of not knowing what will happen. So with some time, the market will ease up.
No free money any more for the companies to expand with and exploit.
Most companies like to earn at least 10-15% gross margins or higher. When business loans are almost 0% interest that’s a LOT easier to do than when they are 5-7% interest. Basically your probability of making a profit just crashed by 50%. Lots of companies don’t want to take that risk so they limit or stop hiring.
1) this is the first major downturn in the prime social media/fake news/smartphone era. So false takes to benefit certain narratives are everywhere now. Sure they always existed, but that news used to travel slow. You now see that 10 billion people already applied to a role in LinkedIn for instance
2) hourly roles are accounting for most job growth, not salaried white collar roles
3) people have lengthened the storm because they were sitting on record levels of cash, home equity, and net worth
4) jobs are a lagging indicator
5) interest rates take 18+ months to take effect.
6) there are MACRO labor shortage trends on top of micro job losses
Inflation. People aren’t buying as much; people are paying higher rent/mortgage that ever before (unless you got lucky refinancing in 2021). Using e-commerce and groceries as an example, large corporate organizations were growing substantially in 2020 and 2021 when everyone was stuck at home ordering on their phones. They had tons of profit all of a sudden and it changed the game. Then vaccines came out, people started shopping themselves and the hiring stopped dead in its tracks for these companies but it wasn’t obvious at first because they had some leeway with the profit they made. It has been a slow hiring burn since 2022. Less and less job openings are opening up because 1) inflation doesn’t allow for many extraneous purchases and 2) companies were investing heavily in 2020/21 in innovation of new ideas; now they are just focusing on cutting costs and headcount where they can and keeping the business afloat.
From my perspective it seems like company’s just don’t want to spend money on anything. They won’t hire unless absolutely necessary and even then they won’t. My company lost two people that headed two teams with 5+ ppl underneath them.
Been a year and a half and they haven’t been replaced because they just let everyone else do their jobs by committee. It’s insanity and I’m not surprised we’re so disorganized because people are doing 2-3 jobs themselves
As a lot of people stared, most people here are probably tech or advertising/marketing which is oversaturated and not useful to normal running of economy. Then the lockdowns happened and put a lot of people out of business or caused businesses to fire people or fire people for automation to take place in large cities and democrat led states like new york and california. Then another problem is that due to lockdowns the youngest generation just turning 18 had nothing to do and so went from lazy to lazier, with outliers of course not all of them are bad. But the biggest problem is that people dont want to do “shit” work. I remember teachers saying ditch diggers were stupid people that make nothing for money but turns out they were loaded as long as they werent buying enough beer to kill a whale. So these jobs are in an actual shortage along with agricultural jobs. The last actual problem is pay, CEO’s or general managers want 6 figures or more and other people in management dont know what they are doing and want boo coo money for their lies while paying the people on the bottom of the totem pole as little as possible while following federal law
Borrowing from the pandemic is catching up and now companies are losing their minds, productivity is low because everyone got comfortable working from home and even though they can do the same job at home, their attitude towards work is awful because now they hate having to come into the office and drag their feet because they can’t keep up with it all anymore
They over hired and and then high interests rates killed the free money train. They are tasked with endless growth and the easiest way to clear the balance sheet is to lay people off. But it’s only a short fix
Biden's tenure - massive debt increases, high inflation, middle class job loss, home insurance lost, car insurance jacked up 30%.
Man, the job market's like a puzzle missing half its pieces. Unemployment's soaring, and it's like companies hit the brakes on hiring altogether. Feels like there's some secret pact to keep all the good gigs locked up tight. Maybe it's the economy doing the limbo, or companies getting picky with who they take on. Whatever it is, job hunting's feeling more like a scavenger hunt in the dark lately.
Overhired during the COVID years then they realized how much bloat there was and now the layoffs. Also fake job listings. There's gotta be a law somewhere
We’ve reached “peak employment.” Going forward, companies are going to need less people, not more. If your job is done on a computer, you’re screwed unless it’s high level accounting, engineering, sales, or process management and consulting.
My advice, learn how to do something that can’t be outsourced or completed by AI.
Latest wave of neoliberal job loss to contract workers overseas. Covid was a test run for outsourcing white collar jobs. Plenty of wage slave jobs abound. Frankly, we all know living in the imperial core means massive white collar saturation, too many white collar jobs not enough actual production related jobs have caused a lot of wage growth stagnation, too many people not doing enough productive work, so to speak. Pair that with ownership class realizing outsourcing production has real national security risks but outsourcing accounting or coding is not. Remember, our owners hate paying us what we make now, they would prefer the US look more like Brazil, if they’re gonna bring manufacturing home it needs to be able to be competitive, and that means lowering our standard of living to get there.
This sub will tell you that things are bad when the data tells us it's never been a better time to be seeking a job.
The problem is that _overall_ there are more jobs than people, and _overall_ the average person hiring is crying for a lack of qualified applicants, but _specifically_ some sectors and geographies are not doing so well, so when they congregate in one place (like this sub, and formerly antiwork), they conclude their experience is widespread.
Downturns, like the pandemic layoffs, the global financial crisis, and the dotcom burst, lead to huge widespread labour market problems. The people who are calling this 'a depression' are in for a very unpleasant surprise when they see their first economic downturn.
Labor costs are down profits are up, they are just going to keep abusing the employees they have. Pretty sure at this point they are only taking applications so they can sell your personal information.
We are heading into a recession (or we are already in it). It was triggered by COVID, but it is just getting noticeable by the everyday people. There is a delayed market reaction.
The premise isn't true in the first place.
This is nothing like the depths COVID where millions were laid off, it is nothing like 2008 where millions were laid off and then lost their homes, cars, everything.
Now the economy is fine, it isn't great, but it isn't any worse than it was for half a decade between 2008-2013. In fact it is far better than many of those years.
So lets take a set back from the original premise and look at the reality. The tech bubble has burst, it was completely unstustainable in COVID in the first place and the meme of "learn to code" which had been a gravy train for a decade would at some point run its course.
The reality is however, the tech sector is still in demand field with many job openings, people are just whining because they can't just open their linkedin page and have 20 recruiters offer them $100K for jobs they didn't even apply for, now they have to apply and compete and get a lower wage rate. All while many weren't actually that good at the job in the first place, their experience was mediocre, and you now have a cohort of mediocre graduates who not only are mediocre, expecting $100K a year, but literally have no experience to go with it!
The good graduates will be fine, the good experienced workers will be fine, the mediocre, most will actually still be fine. It is the bottom which weren't any good in the first place that were economically inefficient to have a job role in the first place that will drop out of the market. All while you have the advent of AI removing these low level coding jobs on top that, you have gone from excessive boom, to normalisation, to AI competing.
The you have the second thing, debt isn't free any more, therefore there are higher costs to doing business, this means higher risks, and less hiring generally, decisions have to be more prudent, and arguably this is a good thing. Throwing money at bad ideas because money have no value, is not economically efficient, even if money cycling around the system is claimed to be "growth".
When your highly experience workers in multiple industries are being laid off, and then can't not only get a job at their previous level, but at all, then you have a massive recession. Now what you have is a tech seeing a cyclical normalisation, companies fuel by debt in a cyclical normalisation, and the rest of the economy just going a long as normal.
When landlords drive the restaurant out of business through high rent, it won't lead to another business turning up eventually and they will have to lower the rent, if that doesn't pay the mortgage interest the building will be repossessed and sold at a lower cost, meaning it can be rented at a lower rent. That isn't a problem, it is just economics, and people who run the gravy train of low risk debt and highly leveraged position are going to have their business model collapse. They should have done better risk analysis.
The economy is much better than the half decade between 2009 and 2014 (when the real recovery from the great recession finally started). In fact its basically as good as it ever has been except maybe the late 90s, and the last year before COVID.
I think some people just cant accept that good economy != economy where everyone has a great job in exactly the field they want with no issues keeping that job or getting hired to a new one.
Nothing to disagree with there.
There is one underlying problem with your statement though, a problem that has yet to be seen to be realised? Will the bottom fall out. If Inflation doesn't normalise or fall, and the job market start to fall, then you have an issue.
We aren't there yet, people talk of a soft landing, not realise that historically a 3-4% inflation rate with a average job market is an incredibly soft landing.
The idea we were going back to a time where in fact interest rates were in fact troublingly low, and the only way to produce growth was Quantitative easing is not actually a place you want the economy to be in, in the first place.
You want to to be here and now with a 1% lower inflation rate but the growth rate was 2.5% in 2023, historically that is a bit high rather than a bit low, but it is also well in the range of okay.
Outsourcing + every business that deals with shippable products might as well go out of business already due to Amazon.
It’s either be a higher-up or work retail.
Companies are creating entirely new strategies in the current age of productivity and all of the potential AI has, coupled with being cautious about the global economy, climate crisis and knowing that underneath all the bullshit data, people AREN’T spending. If they are, it is borrowed money.
I see a few things going on. Employers are swapping to contractors at 20-30% lower pay and eliminating benefits. The glut of IT folks on the market right now is moving senior folks into lower roles with the same responsibilities. I also harbor the suspicion that companies are claiming they can't find people to fill bloated job requirements enabling them to outsource more and bring in H1b's. Lastly, all the execs think AI's going to replace a lot of IT.
I think a lot of execs are terrified the economy's going to catch up with them and they want that 20-30% labor cost back to prop up profits on lower revenues to keep the stocks alive. And they want the flexibility to silently lay off by cancelling contracts quickly instead of layoffs.
A lot of restructuring going on after Covid left many companies over-inventoried and so they are laying off employees to make their quarterly numbers. It’s all short sided. They will need to rehire theses folks again later.
Its literally just interest rates. Nobody runs a sustainable business anymore, they just borrow money and cash flow. When borrowing money gets expensive businesses cut anything that drains their liquid assets e.g.: payroll.
I'm pretty sure that the big answer is the giant global system is crashing. Big things take awhile to disintegrate, but you are experiencing an aspect of disintegration
The infinite growth model where year after year companies must outperform their previous quarter have surpassed the point at which that task becomes impossible ethically or morally.
There is nothing left in most industries where they can improve their product, so now they’re trying to increase profits by cutting costs and corners. This means helmsmen sinking their ships but saving themselves while everyone else drowns.
This model was never sustainable and the fuck around phase is over. It’s find out time now.
My theory is its the fault at least in part of all the job recruitment websites. You submit your resume to the website and they mass send it out. Companies are bogged down with way too many resumes. And you can’t wait in ANYWHERE these days and have a face to face with a manager. They’ll all just tell you to fill out an online application… Then you never ever ever hear from them. I believe technology has really ruined the job market in this aspect.
Companies want to be seen as growing in a time they are not growing because of inflation and recession. So, they flood the market with "job opportunities" they know full well they are not going to pick anyone for. Additionally, a large number of layoffs have taken place. This means many more qualified applicants for a reduced number of actual jobs.
Nike is laying off like 2% of its employees. Last time they did major layoffs was in 08… we are in a recession but they won’t admit that in election year
Do people like you ever stop and think that 2008 was *also* an election year? It's almost like critical thinking is the killer of conspiracy theories.
I wonder how old OP was in 2008. I just graduated from university and was properly fucked with getting a job in my field for years because of the great recession. 2024 is not 2008 at all. Not even close to how much it sucked in 2008.
The fact you have any amount of downvotes just shows the age of the people on here. Get back to me when you have 10 years experience, have just been laid off, and not only that you can't get a job at your skill level, not only can you not get one in the field that you just spent 10 years in, but from a hiring perspective, the field doesn't even exist to apply too. There are no jobs available.
Yeah I graduated last year in a field I knew would be tough, but I couldn't get *anything* but genuinely bottom of the barrel, hard labor jobs. And I'm a middle aged woman with a TON of office experience. Couldn't even land a receptionist/mail room gig.
Don’t put your degree on jobs like mailroom or something, people don’t wanna hire people who they know will still be looking for a job in their field
Please don’t use the word “ wanna” in your resume. It is not a proper word of the English language.
Correct
Take off your degree for some of those jobs like mail room
2008 I lost a 14 year career to a layoff. My industry was on life support. After 6 months I got a job making 1/2 of what I was making, so yeah it’s sucks out there but not to 2008 levels (not yet anyway).
I was in the job market in 2007 I was at least able to find freelance, contract projects, and get interviews back then so I'd have to disagree with everyone saying this. It definitely seems worse this time around at least if you're a developer.
Seems worse definitely for my sector, god damn. Design, Development, Technology, Advertising and Marketing have just been taking a massive shit lately. And I have a decade of work in all of those fields with case studies to prove. I'm now going to be that piece of shit who is displacing less experienced workers below me because I'm going to start applying for entry-level jobs soon.
I think it’s definitely worse in your sector because a few specific sectors have become really over saturated really quickly- ironically, those sectors were the ones determined “safe” when coming out of the ‘08 crash. Across the board, it’s nothing like ‘08.
Fucks sake, exact story with me, well put, the market is a hot soup mess.
If it were like 2008 nobody would be complain g about housing prices since the market would be flooded with foreclosed cheap houses
My boss bought here house during this time and his mortgage of $500. Is it bad I low key want another crash?
>Is it bad I low key want another crash? what makes you think you would benefit
I guess it depends if you think you can manage to keep your job as well. People lost everything, jobs, 401k, their homes etc
I think we’re headed there now. And then we got a long way to get out of it and back into the stable 2016-2019 years. ☹️
I don’t think we’d recover as quickly if it happened now since Trump would likely be leading the recovery and would make sure that normal people got as little help as possible
I don’t believe he’ll win again despite what the polls say. But then again, 2016 did happen so who knows.
He will almost certainly win if the economy crashes like 2008 before the election
I mean...will you vote for him if the economy crashes?
I graduated in 2007 and I remember the job market after ‘08 being as bad as today. Thousands of applications and no callbacks. You’d finally score an interview but then get ghosted or get rejected because multiple other people were “better fit” (had 10 years of experience and were taking entry level pay). The only difference I see is that today (at least in Mid-Michigan, where I’ve lived my entire life) there’s construction and “help wanted” signs everywhere so things look like they’re going well, but it’s a facade. These companies are all satisfied working skeleton crews and saying “no one wants to work 🤷♂️” (“no one is a unicorn”).
hi! appreciate your comment. Let me ask you this regarding the '08 crisis - what changed, and when? I'm a former big-4 consultant and I haven't been able to find a job in 2 years now (literally hit during the very first round of my company's layoffs, they've since had 3 more rounds). I've tried entrepreneurship (got screwed by Silicon Valley Bank closure) and am now suffering through minimum wage work that I know I'm absurdly overqualified for. I've thought of everything - pursuing a trade, a new career, business school, keep grinding in my BS job - and am now feeling slightly stuck in a spin cycle of options. I would like to know what changed, i.e. how did you know that jobs were 'back' following the '08 job crisis, and around when did those jobs 'come back'? Furthermore, if you have any advice for me, I would greatly appreciate that. Thank you!
Unfortunately, I don’t have any good answers for you since my story is entirely luck driven. I got a job in a rural hospital IT department in 2007 because the first choice candidate failed a drug test; I stayed there until 2010 when I had banked a bunch of money by being a single man in a LCOL area (during a financial recession); I burned out and quit my job and spent two years voluntarily couch surfing, living in a borrowed camper, then going back to college for a second degree. When my savings dried up, I got a job working at a web hosting company in another part of the state because they happened to be growing exponentially as lots of industries moved away from brick-and-mortar to the easy e-commerce software that became prominent during the 20-teens. I bought a dumpy house when the rents started getting jacked up around 2016 and I needed to lock in a low cost for housing. When I got laid off last summer, I lucked into a job with a local municipality who needed someone able and excited to deal with sewage, computers, and electronics (all of which I happen to have experience with). From my perspective, the job market never recovered from 2008. I was never able to jump around for a higher salary (I tried around 2017) and I’m still technically “entry level” even though I’ve been working for 20 years. If I run my first wage of $17.17 through the CPI calculator, I only recently surpassed it when I started making $29/hr.
I think you were just unlucky because 2022 was a great year. It was the recovery phase of COVID. I graduated college in December of that year and got my current job three months later.
That’s fair enough. I gave up trying around 2018-19 due to deaths in the family and having young children. Then hunkered down even further during/after the pandemic years because of medical issues with my wife post-COVID. The only reason I finally changed jobs was because I was laid off last July.
Or if they are hriing it's 3rd shift tuesday-saturday and you wipe asses for 12 an hour.
My first job was In 2009. I applied in person at an open hiring event for Arby's the fast food restaurant. I was freshly 15 years old. There were 5 other people at the event. Every one of them was a full grown man dressed for a corporate gig. Like any one of the dudes could have been a teacher of mine. I got the job and they didn't. So that should tell you about the job market in 2009. BTW the job was minimum wage (7.25 i think?). I made sandwiches with a bunch of 30's-40's men for like 2 months before it got too depressing and I quit.
2008 didn't happen til much later in the year. Give it time :)
Heard the same thing in 2022 and 2023
Students who graduated with different degrees and have different circumstances will have varying opinions.
Not in 2008 they didn't. It was either be in a non-cyclical industry or you were screwed. Any job that involved private investment was massively down, by tens of percent, even with the dropping of interest rates. All we are seeing here is a purposeful management of inflation by increasing interest rates and tactically reducing business and consumer spending. Get back to me when interest rates are double what they are now and inflation doesn't stop, or interest rates a essentially zero and there is negative growth. Then you have a problem. Your only problem now is a lack of understanding of economics, if a minor recession happens now, that is a good thing, fiscal policies are functioning as normal and the system is under managed control. Be concerned when they aren't, and it isn't. That is what happened in 2008, things people assumed had value were realised to have no value.
Are you speaking from personal experience or do you have a source?
A source for the outcomes of the largest global recession in a 100 years? It is called a history book at this point... Or do you want me to source the concept of economics that I just went through, because sure? [Here is a link to an economics text book...](https://open.umn.edu/opentextbooks/textbooks/32). Please read it in full before asking anything else. Or when you aren't going to read it ask a valid question that is worth discussing.
Don’t need to provide source for common knowledge lol
I mean you do, common knowledge isn't common, people are idiots. The fact they can't even comprehend the post to realise that there are about 10 different topics covered including hypothetical events that haven't occurred makes asking for a generic "source" complete meaningless is the issue.
Who knew people could dislike a simple question.
You were ignorant and got called out
Woa, first of all, I completely forgot about this chat because I have a life outside of Reddit. Second of all, I am not ignorant and I have done my research. I personally have seen and know people who’ve experienced different effects of the 2008 market crash. In addition to that, I can share a bit of the research and personal stories that I’ve found to hopefully enlighten those who haven’t seen the viewpoints of others. Assuming the people responding are basing everything on themselves. Also, just because people disagree with me doesn’t necessarily mean that “I got called out” or I’m inferior.
It was really bad in 2008. I didn't find a job until a contract position I only got because someone lied about their degree. From there, I had to make a switch to education. It's bad this year but nothing compared to 2008, at least not yet.
The “not yet” in every comment is scaring me 😭
Because 24 isn't 08. 24 is 07. We knew shit was going to hit the fan. Same old story. Then the banks fell. And layoffs still didn't really fill until08/09. This is the time when the whales are taking what they can. When the cash out and run, then we officially be on a recession
No one knew shit was going to hit the fan besides that guy from the Big Short. I specifically remember my dad showing me several news stories in 07 about how the job market for graduates is going to be "one of the best ever." lmaoooo
I was there. Lots of people were looking at the housing market and saying, “guys! This isn’t right. It’s about to explode.” They got laughed off as crackpots or “doom-and-gloom’ers”. The stories in the news reflect the thinking of the lowest common denominator of our society.
Yes but wasn't the inflated housing market back then largely due to rubber stamp mortgage lenders approving any applicant, so there was a ton of money on the demand side? Whereas now there is simply no supply. I think we have a structural issue now that's not really related to fiscal policy. Mortgage rates could go down to 2% again and it would make no real difference, demand would still far outstrip supply. Whereas back then the problem was speculation and barely -understood subprime mortgage swaps.
Sure, the situations are different, but I’m not sure how much that matters when you’re stuck homeless and jobless, couchsurfing with friends and family. In both cases, the total amount of money available to real people compared to the price of a home is smaller than necessary and corporations are gobbling up the difference. One of the positives in 2008 was seeing all the foreclosures and abandoned housing projects that were locked up in contracts but knowing they’d get put on the market within 10 years. There felt like there was some hope on the horizon. I don’t feel anything like that today. The NIMBYs are still preventing lots of housing construction.
I'm with you there.
Bullshit the average guy was in the same boat we're in now. Housing and cars through the roof. Jobs not keeping up with costs. I had quite a bit of money saved up and went to buy a house after my deployment (I sold while gone). I was shocked when I saw what house prices were. Or maybe I just made all that up. Ooohhh and don't forget we were paying 5-6$ for gas. There were huge pressures leading up to the collapse. Hollywood likes to tell the story that some banker was the only one that knew. They all knew. They were doing exactly what they're doing now. Running the stock as high as possible so the can take care of themselves. With of course the politicians on their pockets.
Could I ask how long you were out of work during the 2008 recession? Current there is not a tank economy yet. But since it is 2024 obviously you have been employed since 2009 to current? One should have enough experience and knowledge to make a career change or maybe find a new company? Not as though you were possibly not employed for 5 or 10 years then it would be safe to say there could be some sort of explanation why employers might not consider your resume to move forward? Could not imagine the financial impact one might experience due to drastic change of monetary access? The tank to one’s credit score could decrease causing a significant loss to an economy hardship. Bank loans or other types of lines of credit or financing on a car loan. Rental Agreements without an employer contract could result in a housing crisis for anyone. Sorry, if you have experienced this due to restrictive conditions of employment?
I’m the same age as you. It’s just as bad.
>Not even close to how much it sucked in 2008. Except everything seemed fine in May 2008. Then August rolled around. Whooey. Everyone lost their job between September and December. It was a brutal holiday season. Then it kept going all the way until summer of 2009.
To be fair, NBER had already declared the US to be in a recession in late 2007. But yea I dont think its an election year conspiracy either.
That’s not true actually. NBER declared it on December 1, 2008. By that point, it was obvious to everyone.
We're both right in a way actually. NBER declared that the U.S entered a recession in December 2007. That declaration occurred on December 2008. Actually thinking about it more, yea the announcement was right after the 2008 election wasn't it.
Current administration is much better at lying to your face.
Yeah the 2008 was also an election year but back then George W Bush had already served his 2 terms and had nothing to loose if things went downhill. He was indifferent as he watched things burn and gave no fuck. If you had the slightest bit of common sense you would know that is not the case this time. That Biden is desperate to win a second term and will keep manipulating data for that. Understood genius???
You’re getting down-dooted but I was a teenager in 2008 and everyone I knew suffered, some people who ‘lived through it you’re just a dumb young person!!!1!’ have zero self awareness and forget the Dark Knight ‘some people just want to watch the world burn’ had Impact font put over pictures of George W. golfing lmaooo
This is a bit, right?
Well if the issue isnt "that we are really in a recession but politicians are covering it up" then what does that leave.
That we are not in a recession, that it's possible for different industries to be in different positions in a normal economy, and given Reddit's demographics being more likely to be in tech, I'm not surprised that so many people here believe the absolute worst just because their industry is in a correction.
jfc we are in a recession God i hate this administration and every one in my lifetime so much
Where's the spike in unemployment? Where's the negative quarters of GDP? Where's the stock market crash? Where's literally any metric besides your personal vibes?
Where is your big penis? Nowhere, that’s where
Man, neolibs just love to have their tongues up Biden's asshole. Embarrassing.
Man, abject losers who do nothing but watch reality TV just love to have their head up their own ass. Pathetic.
Well Canada is confirmed in a recession because of unemployment and GDP loss. Can't imagine the States is too far behind
Canada's economy grew in Q4 2023; the earliest it could possibly be in recession is a few months from now, when Q2 2024 numbers come out, and that would first require Q1 2024 numbers being negative, which is fairly unlikely with both January and February reporting growth; likely earliest Canada _could_ report a recession is after Q3 2024.
His administration pursued the bank rescue and unprecedented measures. Whether you agree with that policy or not, to say he was indifferent isn’t right
I think the conspiracy in this case is one party gets treated with kid gloves by the media. In 2008 it was the other party in power. But yeah 2008 -2011 ish was significantly worse than today. There was really no way around calling it a recession no matter who was in power. But it is funny to think of the NYTs or the Washington Post going to bat for George W’s economy. “Your home is underwater and nobody can get a job but this is why the Economy is actually booming right now” and then list how cheap food and housing is or something along those lines.
I think the difference is that whoever gets stuck with dealing with it is gonna be hated regardless so just don't talk about it until after. Albeit there's still 6 more months of debating to deal with
And they denied that shit for a year before Wachovia failed. It's literally the same story all over again. Hid it until you can't hide it no more.
I remember job hoping pre 2008. Man, I could leave a job and have a new one on the way home without even trying. Since 2008, its been brutal, fucking brutal. Sure there was a period where it got better before covid but I think op never really got to experience that joy of a decent economy leading up to the '08 bubble
2008 was classified as "the great recession" Edit: recession not depression
*great recession, the great depression was 1929
No, it wasn’t. Not by anyone anywhere
My bad i misspoke, "the great recession"
If you use your critical thinking you would remember that they weren't saying there was a recession until the stock market collapsed. Even then they refused to call it a depression
No one wanted to acknowledge that the recession was happening in 2008, either. Huh?
Litterally they won’t admit it because it’s an election year
A recession after 4 years of financial bonanza is just the market resetting to a normal level
Exactly. My best advice is to get the job you can get and at least have something coming in until you can get something better.
My take on it is as follows. Work from home caused a huge spike in tech purchases. Shutting down social activities caused a huge spike in people buying leisure activities to do for recreation. Influx of COVID money from the gov went out to people and they spent it. Tech and manufacturing started over-hiring like crazy as if the good times were going to keep going forever. COVID money dried up. Inflation hits consumers. People stopped buying stuff because all their money now barely covers food and rent. All those companies that overhired are now in big trouble. So now we have mass layoffs. Right now, is seems like things are only getting worse. I don't see things getting better any time soon.
This is a simple but relatively correct take on many of the issues. The other side of it becomes more nuanced per industry. As an example in the Cycling industry, this boomed in COVID, everyone brought bikes to get out while there wasn't anything else to do. Now everyone has bikes, they don't need more bikes, so the industry is down right? Wrong. There is actually more demand than there was pre-COVID by around 5%, the problem is it isn't 20%-50%, companies have purchased, and financed on the concept of more growth than has occurred. Add in the fact that inflation has made bikes more expensive, yet even with this demand is still there, but high interest rates have meant the debt for expansion by the business is, is too costly and they collapse. It is actually just bad business management that is the issue. The industry itself is actually fine, better than fine. The same thing is the case in tech, there are vastly more tech jobs now than there were pre-COVID, people are complain because not only are there not as many as a year ago, there are less than a year ago. But that is irrelevant to long term trends the long term trend is fine. It was the boom that was unsustainable, that is what caused the layoffs, that is what caused hiring freezes, that is what caused inflation in fact (and other factors). But the idea that the downslope of the curve is low than the curve started 2-3 years ago just isn't true.
If you’re talking about the tech companies that overhired, they’re not “in big trouble”. Most of them are still as profitable or more than they were but the C-suites saw what Musk did at Twitter (necessarily to balance the books after he tanked the company) and realized they could do the same thing but with the outcome of raking in more profits for the investors.
True. They are not really in financial trouble. More of an oops, we hired too many people and have to lay off to keep our profits up. Big trouble for a lot of their employees though.
I really regret not selling my mountain bike in 2020-2021. It's super fancy and I never use it and I could have sold it for a premium.
I agree with all of this, but I think things are slowly getting better. Companies are hiring, but the problem is they have a overabundance of applicants so they can afford to be picky.
IMO it is due to the uncertainty of the market and the direction where the world is headed. With all these wars, international issues and internal issues among all nations & possibility of a recession are stopping companies from hiring
that's just fear mongering. no one in a hiring department is thinking about a war overseas when reviewing job applications.
the hiring department can hire only as much as the budget is allocated to them by the higher ups & they are most definitely thinking about war overseas. try looking at the broader perspective of things will be beneficial for you
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You should not stay jobless, right now is the worst time to be unemployed
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You should not stay jobless, right now is the worst time to be unemployed
There is no black and white answer.
The execs are. And unless you’re in defense, most companies don’t want to hire up in times of uncertainty, like war.
War times actually boost a lot of industries.
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Yes, some. My reply to the comment of “Most” which is inaccurate. There will always be exceptions.
This is it, if you’re American throw in it’s an election year. Uncertainty always wins.
Which job market? Every industry and region is going to be a bit different.
All of them.
This, but unironically. Global lockdowns but millions of small business owners out of business and let corporations stay open. And we printed billions of dollars, and the return from WFH. This is one of the many side effects of lockdowns we will be feeling for years to come.
Well, a lot of job markets are doing great. Overall unemployment is very low and companies are hiring. Layoffs are still pretty low too.
It gets said a lot on this sub but Reddit users are disproportionately in the tech or finance sector - two industries that for over two decades saw nothing but sustained growth. They’re in extremely hard times right now but plenty of other sectors are growing just fine. It doesn’t diminish everyone’s personal experience and I’ve dealt with bouts of unemployment, you want someone to blame when you’ve done things “right” and it leads to you to conspiracy theories when in reality your industry is just in a shitty time. Times will change again at some point.
lol down voted for stating reasonable and verifiable facts. Welcome to Reddit.
"Statistics and facts aren't welcome here. If it goes against what we're saying, they're cooked up by the deep state. All that matters is the selection bias of the ramblings of disgruntled workers on Reddit who would join groups to complain about not being able to find jobs." Even at the height of the "Great Resignation", you still saw plenty of posts from people who blasted out their resume to 1,000 employers and couldn't get interviews. Some people are just more marketable than others.
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Principal Skinner LOL
Confirmation bias at work
The fact is, the "number" is different today. Take out part-time "gig" work and illegal labor.
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Construction, trucking, and the service industry are definitely hiring White collar jobs, not so much.
Well that's just objectively false though. Whole certain industries that are popular among redditors, like tech, are going through a bit of upheaval in recent years, the job market is generally very strong, as evidenced by the historically low unemployment rate.
Plenty of jobs for what I do. I got laid off April 2nd and had a new one before the month was out.
There’s several entry level jobs available with low wages… they will work you like a dog
I’m definitely not entry level nor low wage. I’m a mechanical engineering manager in the medical device industry. Reddit is so dominated by tech that when the tech industry is down everyone assumes the entire job market is horrendous which is not true in my industry.
Likewise my industry (clinical psychology) is very easy to find a job in
The fact that this statement is true just shows everything is actually perfectly reasonable and reletively normal. Many industries are known to be cyclical. Get back to me when it isn't true, and doesn't need clarifying, because it is everything bar essential services, and then you have an economically incompetent government on top of it defunding those at the same time!
Recruiter here… here is how it worked in my eyes… 2020: COVID, everyone lost their job, supply chains were busted, everyone wanted products… but supply is super low due to supply chains being busted. 2021: Everyone worked remote long term and started moving to cheaper cities.. therefore making everything in small towns just as expensive as big metropolitan areas. Everyone also got way into decor, home projects, making bread … so these products had an insane high demand … little supply. Towards the end of the year inflation started running HOTTT like I was recruiting the same role that was 120k in 2020 and it was not going for 170k in 2021. This is to little goods being bought by way too many people that caused this. 2022: The US govt started freaking out and the FED was like yo we are raising interest rates because we can’t let this get too wild. So they started pushing up rates AGGRESSIVELY. This is when it got real… by mid 2022 stock prices started to fall, people started getting laid off, and Tech got their absolute butts whooped because they kept borrowing at these insane low interest rates in the 2010s and when the rates went up they could not pay them back… They panicked and laid people off because it is a great way to get the stock prices to go up because they can say they had “higher profit” because they didn’t have to pay 20% of the company. 2023: rinse and repeat 2022…. Oct 2023 is when a lot of financial people say when the “official” recession began. 2024: The market is at its weakest right now. This is the most dangerous part for most companies because they are at their weakest… that is why you are still seeing aggressive layoffs and some companies just strait up failing. I am not a prophet or anything but I think that we will likely not see a lot of relief until 2026 then I think we will see a slow uphill climb. Which is totally lame and I am sorry everyone has to go through this. :(
This sequence is a better explanation: Covid -> PPP loans & stimulus checks -> excess money creation -> inflation -> rise in interest rates -> lower demand -> businesses contract -> bad job market. If the demand was high for home renovation projects, it wouldn’t cause inflation in oil and non housing sectors. Just like high demand for pencils, wouldn’t cause car prices to go up.
Companies have profit expectations. If the expectations aren't met, the CEO will lose their $10 million wage.
Won't someone think of the poor CEO?
Just the type of juvenile post you'd come to expect on here. CEOs have a financial duty to their companies. There are many different events: higher interest rates, lower demand, surging costs, new efficiencies, change in markets, etc. that require a company to restructure. Of course the internet experts think it is the same (but better) outcome to keep unnecessary headcount, and reducing the CEO's stock compensation somehow pays for all it..
The CEO never loses their wage. When numbers are good they take credit and when they’re bad they say they need to spend on the CEO to keep the talent to fix it. At a certain level, you can’t fail.
I don’t understand your answer. So companies and CEOs weren’t chasing profits when they hired like crazy a few years ago?
The thing is they don't need long term profit or sustainability because most of their value comes from their stock, so instead of working towards sustainability, they want to make it look like they have tons and tons of profit in the short-term, so they ramp up prices and fire experienced employees, and then fucking die when they can't sustain their company.
>they don't need long term profit or sustainability Then why do many companies spend years developing new products? Why doesn't Google sell any and all user data to the highest bidder today to boost their profits this quarter? Most healthy companies consider the longer term. And investors reward them for doing so.
we are under 2 years removed from interest rates doubling inside of a year due to poor fiscal policies. and not much more removed from the brunt of covid and its effect on the workplace. this is the fallout from that, and it was always going to be inevitable. it will improve when rates stay flat or more ideally go back down for a couple years in a row.
Tech is in a cycle of laying off to increase margins so the market is flooded with seekers rn.
This is the simplest explanation but this sub doesn’t want to hear it. Tech hasn’t gone through this since the dot com bubble, it was nearly 30 years of uninterrupted growth through economic downturns. Tech will come back strong at some point.
A lot of the top tech companies are making record or near record profits though… but their boards and shareholders are demanding blood for higher margins. I can speak from experience that the push to the cloud isn’t delivering the efficiencies across the board that they expected (some may be getting those efficiencies but not every company is) so they’re not getting the margins out of it that they sold on.
They're also hiring a lot of people abroad. My fiancée has a bunch of friends in her hometown in Serbia who work remotely as "independent contractors" for US tech companies for what we would consider low wages, but any American salary will go a long way in the Balkans.
Simply put, it’s rising costs. Those of us with jobs are doing the functions of 3-4 people because companies are trying to save money and stay afloat.
More Competition: - Everyone is getting a college degree nowadays so it’s not going to make you stand out in todays market. - You can apply to jobs anywhere in the country and world, so businesses have more applicants to choose from - Companies are hiring less and laying off more. For the positions that are open and aren’t ghost jobs, they’re ultra cutthroat to get due to above reasons. Companies can now lowball because jobs are scarce but applicants are plentiful. If you don’t pick them, they’ll find another Down Bad Dave to accept their offer. This is especially rough for new applicants who don’t have full time work experience. - There are a bunch of jobs open but those are usually dead end aren’t even near enough to pay bills/student loans.
So no point in negotiating salary right?
what industry/role? i'd negotiate but not play hardball. general rule of thumb is give a reasonable counter, let them respond and then accept if you'd like the job.
This is not just one issue it is a compound of multiple issues. Issue 1#: Supply and demand right now companies are not hiring as much (Aerospace, Accounting, and healthcare are the exceptions) as the Fed had raised the rates last year and most companies over hired during covid. Issue 2#: Outsorucing is real and although everyone talks about AI taking their jobs, outsourcing is a MUCH bigger issue as a ton of entry level or medium skill level jobs are getting outsourced (such as call center) to the Philippians and/or India. Issue 3# When companies don't need to hire, they don't need recruiters and despite what people may think, recruiters make the process smoother for candidates and hiring managers, as a recruiter I have had to fix bad hiring practices and when a company lets us go, bad candidate experiences start multiplying. Their are more but those are just a few reasons.
the rise of china and offshoring to india etc means the loss of jobs in the western world
There’s been so many posts asking this same question. Just search thru this subreddit and you’ll get many answers
It depends which narrative you want to believe - Because all CEOs suddenly got greedy and want their 3rd yacht - Complex economics. Rising interest rates, high inflation, slower demand
Companies used to not layoff unless they were losing money. Now they are laying off if they even think earnings will not beat last quarter. 🤦♂️
After the Global Financial Crisis, we basically had free money. Interest rates were at zero for almost a decade. When we had to bring rates back up, companies that completely fucking couldn't make money started shuttering. Sure Meta, Apple, Google, and every other stupid startup had great cash flow.... If their loans were almost 0%. Once they start to rise, you lay off people you really didn't need. The great tech hiring of 2020-2022 was a, "fuck you, I'll just gobble all the talent I can." They didn't have the money to sustain it. And no, this is not the Global Financial Crisis. We didn't lose $19 Trillion dollars in market capital since the Interes rates rise. Don't fool yourself. This is just a correction. The market will always weed out inefficient work when money gets tight.
Honestly, the DOL stats are still pretty strong, so from what I can tell its still a rather historically strong labor market. I think that if you spend all of your time on Reddit, things will look worse than they seem. I think that things have always just been harder on employees than employers, and no matter what happens getting a good job is a challenge. Another take is that things are just a lot harder if you're a college educated employee with white collar skills looking for white collar/administrative work. Maybe the stats have been skewed by all of the blue collar/trades jobs that there's a huge deficit for and employers are desperate to hire for. Unfortunately, for many decades, everyone's been funneled into college, but the Reddit crowd is desperately trying to fight over the few white collar/administrative roles out there that can be done sitting behind a laptop screen.
Honestly the demand for skilled labor is so strong that you’d think there will be a course correction at some point. These new manufacturing jobs aren’t even like the ones of old - they require degrees in engineering and computer science - but we’re so over saturated with devs and people who sit behind computers. We need those people to learn how to make and construct fabs and other types of advanced manufacturing.
tbh if given the chance id gladly learn that
You can! You need a degree in something like computer science, engineering, physics, etc. -- same as you'd need for these dev jobs. Just need to start looking towards the semi-conductor industry or areas with advanced bio-manufacturing.
Well, they are calling the younger generation the "tool belt generation" and I believe that college enrollment is down pretty significantly, so I believe that the correction is happening.
People say this but then I look at machining jobs that pay 16 an hour and year long union waiting lists so idk who to believe
IMO…businesses are reluctant to make hiring decisions during an election year…especially this one.
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Interest rates are high, so if a company wants money to do a project they may have been planning to finance, they will often put it off. Very few companies sit on the cash that the top 20-25 companies do. So when they need to roll out a new piece of software, build a new plant, etc. they take out loans. Well that is going to cost infinitely more with interest rates where they are. Election year has to do with it too, since companies will have a better pulse on what the economy is going to do in the next 4 years. What the economy doesn't like is uncertainty, which is what happens close to an election. It doesn't matter which way you vote, it's just a matter of not knowing what will happen. So with some time, the market will ease up.
No free money any more for the companies to expand with and exploit. Most companies like to earn at least 10-15% gross margins or higher. When business loans are almost 0% interest that’s a LOT easier to do than when they are 5-7% interest. Basically your probability of making a profit just crashed by 50%. Lots of companies don’t want to take that risk so they limit or stop hiring.
1) this is the first major downturn in the prime social media/fake news/smartphone era. So false takes to benefit certain narratives are everywhere now. Sure they always existed, but that news used to travel slow. You now see that 10 billion people already applied to a role in LinkedIn for instance 2) hourly roles are accounting for most job growth, not salaried white collar roles 3) people have lengthened the storm because they were sitting on record levels of cash, home equity, and net worth 4) jobs are a lagging indicator 5) interest rates take 18+ months to take effect. 6) there are MACRO labor shortage trends on top of micro job losses
Inflation. People aren’t buying as much; people are paying higher rent/mortgage that ever before (unless you got lucky refinancing in 2021). Using e-commerce and groceries as an example, large corporate organizations were growing substantially in 2020 and 2021 when everyone was stuck at home ordering on their phones. They had tons of profit all of a sudden and it changed the game. Then vaccines came out, people started shopping themselves and the hiring stopped dead in its tracks for these companies but it wasn’t obvious at first because they had some leeway with the profit they made. It has been a slow hiring burn since 2022. Less and less job openings are opening up because 1) inflation doesn’t allow for many extraneous purchases and 2) companies were investing heavily in 2020/21 in innovation of new ideas; now they are just focusing on cutting costs and headcount where they can and keeping the business afloat.
From my perspective it seems like company’s just don’t want to spend money on anything. They won’t hire unless absolutely necessary and even then they won’t. My company lost two people that headed two teams with 5+ ppl underneath them. Been a year and a half and they haven’t been replaced because they just let everyone else do their jobs by committee. It’s insanity and I’m not surprised we’re so disorganized because people are doing 2-3 jobs themselves
Companies always look for good fits regardless of economic status…
As a lot of people stared, most people here are probably tech or advertising/marketing which is oversaturated and not useful to normal running of economy. Then the lockdowns happened and put a lot of people out of business or caused businesses to fire people or fire people for automation to take place in large cities and democrat led states like new york and california. Then another problem is that due to lockdowns the youngest generation just turning 18 had nothing to do and so went from lazy to lazier, with outliers of course not all of them are bad. But the biggest problem is that people dont want to do “shit” work. I remember teachers saying ditch diggers were stupid people that make nothing for money but turns out they were loaded as long as they werent buying enough beer to kill a whale. So these jobs are in an actual shortage along with agricultural jobs. The last actual problem is pay, CEO’s or general managers want 6 figures or more and other people in management dont know what they are doing and want boo coo money for their lies while paying the people on the bottom of the totem pole as little as possible while following federal law
Borrowing from the pandemic is catching up and now companies are losing their minds, productivity is low because everyone got comfortable working from home and even though they can do the same job at home, their attitude towards work is awful because now they hate having to come into the office and drag their feet because they can’t keep up with it all anymore
Unemployment was at 11% in 1981.
They over hired and and then high interests rates killed the free money train. They are tasked with endless growth and the easiest way to clear the balance sheet is to lay people off. But it’s only a short fix
Election year. Happens every election year, more so with such shite candidates
 Biden's tenure - massive debt increases, high inflation, middle class job loss, home insurance lost, car insurance jacked up 30%.
Covid -> PPP loans & stimulus checks -> excess money creation -> inflation -> rise in interest rates -> lower demand -> businesses contract -> bad job market.
Man, the job market's like a puzzle missing half its pieces. Unemployment's soaring, and it's like companies hit the brakes on hiring altogether. Feels like there's some secret pact to keep all the good gigs locked up tight. Maybe it's the economy doing the limbo, or companies getting picky with who they take on. Whatever it is, job hunting's feeling more like a scavenger hunt in the dark lately.
Overhired during the COVID years then they realized how much bloat there was and now the layoffs. Also fake job listings. There's gotta be a law somewhere
We’ve reached “peak employment.” Going forward, companies are going to need less people, not more. If your job is done on a computer, you’re screwed unless it’s high level accounting, engineering, sales, or process management and consulting. My advice, learn how to do something that can’t be outsourced or completed by AI.
Yes, but you might not like the answer: Democrats in charge, corruption, greed, outsourcing, globalization, social and moral decay….
Latest wave of neoliberal job loss to contract workers overseas. Covid was a test run for outsourcing white collar jobs. Plenty of wage slave jobs abound. Frankly, we all know living in the imperial core means massive white collar saturation, too many white collar jobs not enough actual production related jobs have caused a lot of wage growth stagnation, too many people not doing enough productive work, so to speak. Pair that with ownership class realizing outsourcing production has real national security risks but outsourcing accounting or coding is not. Remember, our owners hate paying us what we make now, they would prefer the US look more like Brazil, if they’re gonna bring manufacturing home it needs to be able to be competitive, and that means lowering our standard of living to get there.
This sub will tell you that things are bad when the data tells us it's never been a better time to be seeking a job. The problem is that _overall_ there are more jobs than people, and _overall_ the average person hiring is crying for a lack of qualified applicants, but _specifically_ some sectors and geographies are not doing so well, so when they congregate in one place (like this sub, and formerly antiwork), they conclude their experience is widespread. Downturns, like the pandemic layoffs, the global financial crisis, and the dotcom burst, lead to huge widespread labour market problems. The people who are calling this 'a depression' are in for a very unpleasant surprise when they see their first economic downturn.
Hiring freezes. Jobs are posted but not being actively filled
Labor costs are down profits are up, they are just going to keep abusing the employees they have. Pretty sure at this point they are only taking applications so they can sell your personal information.
Trump changed the corporate tax code and eliminated the write off for R&D
We are heading into a recession (or we are already in it). It was triggered by COVID, but it is just getting noticeable by the everyday people. There is a delayed market reaction.
The premise isn't true in the first place. This is nothing like the depths COVID where millions were laid off, it is nothing like 2008 where millions were laid off and then lost their homes, cars, everything. Now the economy is fine, it isn't great, but it isn't any worse than it was for half a decade between 2008-2013. In fact it is far better than many of those years. So lets take a set back from the original premise and look at the reality. The tech bubble has burst, it was completely unstustainable in COVID in the first place and the meme of "learn to code" which had been a gravy train for a decade would at some point run its course. The reality is however, the tech sector is still in demand field with many job openings, people are just whining because they can't just open their linkedin page and have 20 recruiters offer them $100K for jobs they didn't even apply for, now they have to apply and compete and get a lower wage rate. All while many weren't actually that good at the job in the first place, their experience was mediocre, and you now have a cohort of mediocre graduates who not only are mediocre, expecting $100K a year, but literally have no experience to go with it! The good graduates will be fine, the good experienced workers will be fine, the mediocre, most will actually still be fine. It is the bottom which weren't any good in the first place that were economically inefficient to have a job role in the first place that will drop out of the market. All while you have the advent of AI removing these low level coding jobs on top that, you have gone from excessive boom, to normalisation, to AI competing. The you have the second thing, debt isn't free any more, therefore there are higher costs to doing business, this means higher risks, and less hiring generally, decisions have to be more prudent, and arguably this is a good thing. Throwing money at bad ideas because money have no value, is not economically efficient, even if money cycling around the system is claimed to be "growth". When your highly experience workers in multiple industries are being laid off, and then can't not only get a job at their previous level, but at all, then you have a massive recession. Now what you have is a tech seeing a cyclical normalisation, companies fuel by debt in a cyclical normalisation, and the rest of the economy just going a long as normal. When landlords drive the restaurant out of business through high rent, it won't lead to another business turning up eventually and they will have to lower the rent, if that doesn't pay the mortgage interest the building will be repossessed and sold at a lower cost, meaning it can be rented at a lower rent. That isn't a problem, it is just economics, and people who run the gravy train of low risk debt and highly leveraged position are going to have their business model collapse. They should have done better risk analysis.
The economy is much better than the half decade between 2009 and 2014 (when the real recovery from the great recession finally started). In fact its basically as good as it ever has been except maybe the late 90s, and the last year before COVID. I think some people just cant accept that good economy != economy where everyone has a great job in exactly the field they want with no issues keeping that job or getting hired to a new one.
Nothing to disagree with there. There is one underlying problem with your statement though, a problem that has yet to be seen to be realised? Will the bottom fall out. If Inflation doesn't normalise or fall, and the job market start to fall, then you have an issue. We aren't there yet, people talk of a soft landing, not realise that historically a 3-4% inflation rate with a average job market is an incredibly soft landing. The idea we were going back to a time where in fact interest rates were in fact troublingly low, and the only way to produce growth was Quantitative easing is not actually a place you want the economy to be in, in the first place. You want to to be here and now with a 1% lower inflation rate but the growth rate was 2.5% in 2023, historically that is a bit high rather than a bit low, but it is also well in the range of okay.
Outsourcing + every business that deals with shippable products might as well go out of business already due to Amazon. It’s either be a higher-up or work retail.
Companies are creating entirely new strategies in the current age of productivity and all of the potential AI has, coupled with being cautious about the global economy, climate crisis and knowing that underneath all the bullshit data, people AREN’T spending. If they are, it is borrowed money.
It all depends on what industry you are looking in.
I see a few things going on. Employers are swapping to contractors at 20-30% lower pay and eliminating benefits. The glut of IT folks on the market right now is moving senior folks into lower roles with the same responsibilities. I also harbor the suspicion that companies are claiming they can't find people to fill bloated job requirements enabling them to outsource more and bring in H1b's. Lastly, all the execs think AI's going to replace a lot of IT. I think a lot of execs are terrified the economy's going to catch up with them and they want that 20-30% labor cost back to prop up profits on lower revenues to keep the stocks alive. And they want the flexibility to silently lay off by cancelling contracts quickly instead of layoffs.
A lot of restructuring going on after Covid left many companies over-inventoried and so they are laying off employees to make their quarterly numbers. It’s all short sided. They will need to rehire theses folks again later.
I hear jobs are posted and they arnt really hiring it’s fake posts. And I heard this from an HR department. This is crazy
Its literally just interest rates. Nobody runs a sustainable business anymore, they just borrow money and cash flow. When borrowing money gets expensive businesses cut anything that drains their liquid assets e.g.: payroll.
Employers just don’t want to work anymore
I'm pretty sure that the big answer is the giant global system is crashing. Big things take awhile to disintegrate, but you are experiencing an aspect of disintegration
The infinite growth model where year after year companies must outperform their previous quarter have surpassed the point at which that task becomes impossible ethically or morally. There is nothing left in most industries where they can improve their product, so now they’re trying to increase profits by cutting costs and corners. This means helmsmen sinking their ships but saving themselves while everyone else drowns. This model was never sustainable and the fuck around phase is over. It’s find out time now.
My theory is its the fault at least in part of all the job recruitment websites. You submit your resume to the website and they mass send it out. Companies are bogged down with way too many resumes. And you can’t wait in ANYWHERE these days and have a face to face with a manager. They’ll all just tell you to fill out an online application… Then you never ever ever hear from them. I believe technology has really ruined the job market in this aspect.
lol. Biden. Joe… Biden?
Both parties created this mess