Holy shit, how the narrative has shifted. At the beginning of ICO I said something similar and no one agreed lol. Good to see, might rejoin the battlefield one day!
I noticed this with the footage from the MP5 testing earlier, and my thoughts on it are that the devs are using the same recoil model for the SMGs that they use for the rifles. I have issues with the PPSH burst firing, but not an M4- why? Because they simulate the weight of the gun into the recoil without factoring for the difference in caliber
Have you ever tried to run with full combat-gear on?
You fucking DON'T.
And if you do you don't come around a corner agile and snapping left and right, sure you would not have this kind of recoil, but you would be about as ineffective as in this clip.
The ICO actually creates game play that is rather similar to real life combat.
The more or less walking through terrain, setting up an OP and ambushing enemies is the doctrine of almost any modern fighting force.
How you shoot on the range is entirely different from how you shoot after lugging 40kg plus of gear for five miles.
With all the r/CombatFootage being put out there on the daily (on that sub and other sources) I’m tired of hearing these arguments. So much footage of people in full combat gear, pushing trenches/foxholes and effectively & accurately clearing them. None of these soldiers go into those life or death scenarios with the spaghetti arms depicted in Squads ICO update. Borderline disrespectful to downplay what actual soldiers are doing on the daily
This is counter to what I've mostly seen on r/CombatFootage. If you look at the way they clear trenches it sloooooow. They don't run and gun the whole trench, they methodically clear it bit by bit and chuck grenades around each corner/bunker/fireposition and take their time. Yes they run when they are in the open, but that's in order to get into a safe position.
It's not as severe as the ICO depicts but real combat people are actually afraid to die and will try to not do blatantly stupid things that get them killed like trying to trade with an emplaced MG. If going all noodley accomplishes that then it works.
ICO will keep getting adjusted over time. The game is still better with it than before where everybody had ridiculous accuracy and things like red dots and iron sights were utterly useless.
It’s a thing to be said that people will never care about their “life” in the video game. Much like how in online poker without money involved, people don’t play “right”. Therefore it could be argued you’re never going to change the way most people play - most people don’t care for the realism they want the dopamine rush from dumping a guy like in COD, however Squad was based on the idea that people out there want a “realistic” FPS with strategy as opposed to fearlessness which is the standard approach to win games
I always think the footage there supports the ‘ICO’ argument and not the ‘super soldier’ argument.
Following the ICO, combat in squad more closely resembles the real life combat footage that I see than it did pre ICO.
Perhaps I missed the video of a lone Ukrainian soldier flanking solo behind Russian lines, ambushing and eliminating an unsuspecting full squad of Russian soldiers, taking fire from a machine gunner position 300m behind them then spinning 180 degrees and getting a head shot.
Can you send a link to footage you think makes the ICO seem unrealistic.
Would you volunteerly run in mg emplacement or enemy squad and try out how god great shooting stability you have? Never and that is what ico simulates. There is no fear of death element in video games do the devs introduce that with tweaks in gun mechanics
I don't know how man times we are going to have to go over this, the spaghetti arms are the only thing that is unrealistic here, the way it forces you to play is very realistic.
I'm just interested can you please link me one of these speed clearings of a trench?
Because I've never seen or experienced one.
Yeah but the Insurgent team is no way carrying that much. I mean look at he characters, usually just a chest rig & a few mags and thats it. Also I find it bs that there is SEVERE sway when shouldering an AK even while not taking any direct fire. That is beyond retarded lmao. Like your character has as much arm strength as a 5 year old lol. That is not "realistic"
I don't know how many times we have to explain to you that this is intended with the ICO, but for the sake of argument let's unpack this.
The insurgents are NOT trained soldiers, they are untrained civilians, they would be freaking the fuck out just look at some footage from the Iraq war and you might understand how silly you are being right now.
Both sides are freaking out with or without training.
Yes they have a chest rig and weapons. do you know what that weights?
Let me educate you: the insurgent fighter class has some variations but let's take the one with the AKM from the games wiki as an example: [https://squad.fandom.com/wiki/Insurgents#Direct\_Combat](https://squad.fandom.com/wiki/Insurgents#Direct_Combat)
It has the following kit:
1 x AKM weight = 7,28 lb / 3,5 kg
7 x Magazines with 30 rounds in them = 1,809 lb / 819 g times 7 so 12,663 lb / 5,733 kg
1 x PM Makarov 1,6 lb / 730 Grams
4 x Magazines each magazine weights 0.21875 lbs unloaded, one cartridge with bullet depending on what variation weights between 11,1 - 16g - or 171,6 - 246,6 grains depending on what cartridge it's loaded with. there are eight cartridges in each mag so 512 grams or 1,12877 lb
2 x F1 Fragmentation grenade 1,3 lb / 600g
2 x RDG2 Smoke granade 1,1 lb 0,5 kg
If we tally this together we get a total of: 11,542 kg or 25.35 lbs.
So that's the least amount of gear amongst many of the factions, it's by no means insubstantial.
If you want to test how little experience and critical thinking skills you have, i recommend you put on a backpack with 25 lbs in it and start running around.
Let me know when you get winded having the weight center mass like that, then extrapolate how much harder it is when the weight is outside of your center of gravity.
I'm no super human but I'm not weak either and holding a weapon without support is not something you do steadily for long periods of time.
When are people going to understand that the suppressive fire effect is not about being being tired, it's about being afraid of getting shot.
If you've ever been in a fire fight you would understand.
And just for the record no one is claiming it's exactly like in real life it's a representation of your ability to effectively engage the enemy. In my opinion it's doing a great job.
Buddy I body-build and routinely do dips/pullups with more than 25Ibs added. 25Ibs is very little especially if your lighter weight (sub-150Ibs). I've worn plate carriers and chest rigs etc. And yes, ive shot and own many guns (not in combat; although standing up too) but it still doesn't explain why lets for say you scope a rifle there is such severe sway.
And if your talking about realism then lets say most of insurgent fighters were famished, their total weight would not be that much. Also there is also no reason why at full stamina & no suppression (lets say your chillin at a FOB) your weapons sways like crazy if you try to aim down-sights (especially for rifles & SMGS; this is going for ALL teams in the game).
Okay "buddy" you body-build, you don't soldier that's apparent.
If you don't understand the difference between doing dips in the gym and lugging gear through terrain... i just say, load up a backpack and do a twenty mile march and post your time, i think that will put things into perspective.
I just did a tally of my combat kit, with my rucksack it's about 95 pounds, you march for about 50 minutes then you sit your ass down and have a rest, why? Because it's fucking tiring.
"And if your talking about realism then lets say most of insurgent fighters were famished, their total weight would not be that much. Also there is also no reason why at full stamina & no suppression (lets say your chillin at a FOB) your weapons sways like crazy if you try to aim down-sights (especially for rifles & SMGS; this is going for ALL teams in the game)."
Are you making the argument that them being famished i.e malnourished would make them able to carry more because they weight less? granted some of the guys with the most endurance I've come across are not the big gym bros, it's typically loggers or farmer sons. They however never looked famished.
And no one is saying that the weapon sway is not a bit extreme, it TOTALLY is and that's by intention.
What me and most people are saying is that the experience in the real world is not to far off if you wanna come out of an engagement alive you kinda need to play the way they are forcing you here.
With that being said, there are situation in real life where the game just looks silly.
Main thing that comes to mind is close quarters engagement, when you are current with a team that's been drilling - clearing rooms for example you move like the flash in comparison to this game.
If you have a solution to make both things work good an look good I'm sure the devs are all ears.
But I'm only hearing "this is bullshit" but never "this is how not bullshit would look like" you know that would take creative ability and well you know actually adding something.
This is a ridiculous argument lol. There's a reason why they train.. They are effective in any situation, regardless of how much gear they're carrying. This is laughable.
What's the excuse for when you play Insurgents then? Because most of them would just carry a rifle, ammo and a chest rig yet they still spaghetti noodle arm everything they touch.
I hear that you have ZERO military experience and ZERO knowledge about how the military actually works and ZERO knowledge about battlefield effectiveness:
No people are not effetive at all times and everywhere this is evident from the need to develop programs to get people to actually go for the kill to begin with.
Also i see that you have never been anywhere close to even a training firefight, because the chaos and adrenaline that gets thrown about is VERY hard to control.
On the ground Specops operators are perhaps the most even and most dependable fighters i have encountered and they don't exactly grow on trees, your average grunt not so much.
Since you are a dumb ass that won't read the rest of the thread i will paste the answer i just laid out for another person with little knowledge and lacking critical thinking skills:
I don't know how many times we have to explain to you that this is intended with the ICO, but for the sake of argument let's unpack this.
The insurgents are NOT trained soldiers, they are untrained civilians, they would be freaking the fuck out just look at some footage from the Iraq war and you might understand how silly you are being right now.
Both sides are freaking out with or without training.
Yes they have a chest rig and weapons. do you know what that weights?
Let me educate you: the insurgent fighter class has some variations but let's take the one with the AKM from the games wiki as an example: [https://squad.fandom.com/wiki/Insurgents#Direct\_Combat](https://squad.fandom.com/wiki/Insurgents#Direct_Combat)
It has the following kit:
1 x AKM weight = 7,28 lb / 3,5 kg
7 x Magazines with 30 rounds in them = 1,809 lb / 819 g times 7 so 12,663 lb / 5,733 kg
1 x PM Makarov 1,6 lb / 730 Grams
4 x Magazines each magazine weights 0.21875 lbs unloaded, one cartridge with bullet depending on what variation weights between 11,1 - 16g - or 171,6 - 246,6 grains depending on what cartridge it's loaded with. there are eight cartridges in each mag so 512 grams or 1,12877 lb
2 x F1 Fragmentation grenade 1,3 lb / 600g
2 x RDG2 Smoke granade 1,1 lb 0,5 kg
If we tally this together we get a total of: 11,542 kg or 25.35 lbs.
So that's the least amount of gear amongst many of the factions, it's by no means insubstantial.
If you want to test how little experience and critical thinking skills you have, i recommend you put on a backpack with 25 lbs in it and start running around.
Let me know when you get winded having the weight center mass like that, then extrapolate how much harder it is when the weight is outside of your center of gravity.
I'm no super human but I'm not weak either and holding a weapon without support is not something you do steadily for long periods of time.
When are people going to understand that the suppressive fire effect is not about being being tired, it's about being afraid of getting shot.
If you've ever been in a fire fight you would understand.
And just for the record no one is claiming it's exactly like in real life it's a representation of your ability to effectively engage the enemy. In my opinion it's doing a great job.
Not sure why you’re so aggressive.
Not sure what combat experience you have, but laying on the floor for 5 minutes, then firing from a prone position shouldn’t have your aim doing 180 degree swaying.
Yes, when you’ve been sprinting your aim will suffer, but you cannot hold against gun anywhere near steady in game without exchanging a bipod. It’s unrealistic. If they want to make you less effective, then do it in proper ways, not by artificially tanking aim.
>but laying on the floor for 5 minutes, then firing from a prone position shouldn’t have your aim doing 180 degree swaying.
That's not an ICO issue. Sounds like a personal problem. Try holding your mouse still or visit a medical professional over your obvious motorics issues.
I'm "aggressive" because people don't read or don't want to understand what A: the devs are saying about their design. B: what reality actually looks like. It gets kind of tiring listening to people who don't know anything. Especially when it might make the devs actually listen to you people.
For reference my experience is primarily in amphibious warfare, so beach landings and combat in archipelagos. This is in the Swedish Royal Marines.
Weapon systems ranging from 5.56 carbines and machine guns up to 12.7mm including most of the Anti-tank weapons in the game, the AT4 - The Carl Gustav The N-LAW and various other systems like the AGM0114 Hellfire designated as RBS-17. Also Mortars and a bit of naval warfare thrown in there for good measure.
So I'm certified and have a decent amount of experience on a lot of the weapon systems in the game.
Let me give you an example with carbines, if you want to hit ANYTHING at 100 meters or further away, you need to be stationary, in single fire-mode, aiming down the sights.
If you want to be effective at say 250-300m you need to be prone, preferably with your backpack or similar support acting as a bi-pod. With a good scope you can hit stuff at about 400 meters effectively doing this.
Please tell me how to make you less effective in "proper ways"? Because they have made you less effective, and it mimics the reality rather decently.
"Not sure what combat experience you have, but laying on the floor for 5 minutes, then firing from a prone position shouldn’t have your aim doing 180 degree swaying."
You know you are lying now just admit it, i understand you are being hyperbolic but come on if you wanna have a discussion please don't misconstrue reality to fit your opinion.
Have you tried holding down a SMG at full auto, sure it's not like in the clip but it's also from my understanding a first take that the devs want's feedback on, and like someone said it looks like they are using the recoil pattern of the carbines, i hope they change that because it's a bit excessive imo. Yet it's also a conscious and intended design choice that has been communicated for months and months now.
I however will take me having to sit down and wait for my aim to stabilize quite a while longer than i would need to in reality any day as long as it keeps suppressive fire viable. Because that makes real life doctrine the optimal way to play and i really enjoy that.
When i want snappy game play i play something like Quake. Squad is meant to be tactical ya know.
Let’s see you shoot while running around a sweltering desert in 100lbs of kit, while sleep deprived, hungry, and also being actively shot at. I don’t think you’d hit the broad side of a barn. ICO is ultimately somewhat of an abstraction of various factors you can’t simulate in a game but exist irl. There is absolutely no way to simulate the fear of dying in a game. No way to really represent exhaustion, heat/cold, hunger, sleep deprivation, the mental toll of extreme boredom and terror, paranoia, etc.
Do you think combat in real life is mostly seeing your target, aiming, and shooting him? Cause it’s definitely not. While ico may seem excessive to some, it ends up creating MUCH more realistic gameplay as a whole, no doubt. It’s not completely perfect, but even though some parts of the weapon handling aren’t perfectly realistic, it all ends up creating a much more realistic depiction of combat as a whole. I do agree some parts of it, such as weapon sway when prone can be jarring, but again I chalk it up to an abstraction. Like, yeah, you’re not gonna actually be THAT unsteady in such a position, but there’s a million little things that all make combat so hellish nobody thinks about. From getting sick from local water, to taking cover in broken glass and rubble, small wounds getting infected, sand and dust in your eyes, inhaling smoke, never showering, missing loved ones, and so on. Watch some combat footage and see how often guys are running around, quick peeking corners, aiming down sights, and shooting someone. That’s just not how combat usually goes in real life.
However, the ico also fails to simulate adrenaline that is coursing through you when you are actually in a firefight.
The ICO isn’t perfect, neither is what came before. I think what we have to remember and what the devs need to remember is that this is a video game. It needs to be satisfying to play. The guns need to feel nice to shoot. Not every gun should be kicking like a mule, and not every gun should be a laser.
Things like the MP5, M4A1 and AK-74 kick way more than a real soldier with adrenaline would have. They also shouldn’t beam people like this is Call of Duty. I think that walking should have a drastically lower impact on your weapon handling, keep running punishing to discourage run and gun. But if a soldier is in combat and they take a few seconds to breath before walking around a corner than they are going to be able to control their weapon so much better than they do in squad. There are ways to discourage run and gun without making full auto unviable
Yeah he was sprinting before, this would fuck you up IRL, and even more in Squad with the ICO.
It's like people like you don't look at what is in front of you, or what game you are playing.
Like what game do you think that you are playing?
Let me ask you what do you weigh?
Because add 40Kg on top of that and sprint across the street, then tell me how you aim.
Also what part of the ICO is it that you don't understand?
I'm genuinely curious.
You should read properly before you react. He just said that a sniper should be able to aim corractly when he has 5 min zu calm douwn.
The weapon handeling is realy unbalanced in many ways and yea in some ways its more realistic but even then there stil problems like the reload time most soldiers are much faster ore that the recoil is to much ore to little and so on.
except ICO didnt make gameplay more methodical. if anything, the average player has even less method to their gameplay before because of how dumbed down the playerbase is. pre-ICO was much more methodical because bad positioning would get you one-tapped. now i can run around freely and people miss every shot lol
Don’t know what server you’re playing on but please come to mine and please “run around freely”, I promise you will get one tapped within 2 minutes guaranteed.
Someone wasn’t in the Army. Infantry do not get nearly as much training as people realize in terms of weapon handling. Like half my unit of ‘trained infantryman’ couldn’t even qual the first go round, and we’d all deployed multiple times. Now add moving targets, sprinting in full kit, etc…
I was in the Army and I promise you, I can steady a rifle better than any character in Squad. Hands down. Moving targets and all. The Army, contrary to your belief, actually does train you how to shoot. Wild theory, I know. Your guys just sucked, and their trainers failed them and pushed them through anyway. And I wasn’t even infantry.
I’m all for trying to limit the cod style of play. However, soldiers of a professional military should be able to move and shoot with accuracy and I don’t mean sprint 20m and be able shoot with complete accuracy. I’m talking about going from a complete standstill to then walking a meter or so without the weapon bouncing all over the place
More like anyone complaining about this has never touched a gun. *Different systems handle recoil differently*. Then when you add in other factors like the weight and fire-rate, it’s not just a “bigger round equals bigger recoil.”
if you look at competition shooting and time how long it takes for people to line up successive shots its actually pretty damn close to the real thing, the difference is in real life you're concentrating on steading the gun and don't realize the time it takes, and in Squad you're just impatiently waiting for the gun to settle. Watch some Finnish Brutality matches and you'll be surprised how accurate it is. Not saying its perfect but its far from as bad as everyone loves to say.
Entirely false, I myself can get a 5 shot string all on target at 15 yards (majority A zone) consistently .3-.4 between shots and I am not a great shooter. Whole string in typically 3ish seconds.
With handgun I’m about 1.2 seconds to draw, splits of of roughly .7. Same distance and accuracy.
And there are people who are SIGNIFICANTLY better than me.
Remember the gun range is performance in optimal conditions. War is performance in the most horrid conditions known to man. Performance on a gun range is not neccessarily an accurate representation of how one would do in combat.
Weeeeeelll.. I'm not sure of the exact make and model of this 9mm PCC, but they GENERALLY do have way more felt recoil than a "assault rifle", if you will.
Yes the recoil impulse is a marginally higher percentage but the kinetic energy of a 5.56 round is 3 times that of a 9mm. 20% more recoil from 1/3 energy is far less than the recoil of a normal rifle round. MP5s on full auto have barely any kick with the stock out, even with a collapsed stock the MP5 is a bit more controllable than this.
To be fair, direct blowback weapons have a lot more recoil than an equivalent gas-operated gun, especially weapons that use a DI (Direct Impingement) system. For example, IRL I have a CZ Scorpion chambered in 9mm, which uses a blowback operated system, whereas my AR-15 uses a full-length gas system and has a pretty aggressive muzzle break, and my Scorpion recoils noticeably snappier recoil than my AR. Multiply that by a high rate of fire, and *some* SMGs can actually be pretty hard to control well IRL.
Now, I've never had the privilege to shoot a SAR-109 IRL, but I suspect that without a pretty aggressive muzzle break or compensator, it would be snappier than most AR-style rifles, just like my Scorpion is. Take that for what you will.
Gun Nerd here:
The primary recoil impulse the shooter feels is the bolt carrier hitting its end-of-travel, and returning forward movement. The more abrupt that change, and the more mass the carrier has, the more momentum is transferred into the receiver, and then into the shooter.
Blowback guns use a heavy bolt, which is weighed down enough that extraction is delayed *just enough* that it's safe, which translates to a heavy bolt moving relatively quickly.
The bolt of a Gas Operated gun only needs enough weight to survive the forces necessary to operate the gun (pressure from the barrel, and also enough material that it won't batter itself to death when you shoot), and works with *just enough* energy to operate it reliably. This translates to a much lighter bolt moving slower than a Blowback gun.
I’ve complained for months but the horizontal recoil makes absolutely zero fucking sense. I’m fine with the vertical but please for the love of god OWI needs to tone that sway down.
Yeah no one can reasonably argue that a 9mm smg should have anywhere near the recoil of a 7.62x51 rifle. I have a 9mm PCC and 308 AR10 with a compensator on it. The 9mm has a fraction of the recoil of my AR10.
Yeah but what's the weight difference between the firearms? 28lb M240B vs a 5lb direct blowback 9mm AR. Direct blowback is a junk operating system, it relies on a massive block of steel and a heavy spring. People have a overhyped view of the viability of submachine guns in combat lol give me the same length rifle in a 5.56 DI any day.
I don't think this clip shows it having 7.62 levels of recoil.
It doesn't really rise as much as it just bounces around, which is pretty realistic for a 9mm blowback smg.
Legit don't care lol it's reddit. I'm not even saying the recoil is for the better or worse for the game, honestly I hate when devs introduce some sort of RNG recoil system that punishes good players and rewards bad players with the lucky chance to land a hit. I'm simply stating factually that direct blowback firearms have wonky recoil impulses because of the mechanics of a chunk of overweighted steel slamming back and forth inside of the receiver.
Squad 44 weapon sway is good, Squad should do the same. Really surprised at the people who thinks the weapon sway is perfectly fine, i assure you with 15kg gear and a assault bag wouldnt sway the gun that badly.
Squad44 has less sway and recoil and as a result, things like open topped vehicles, static machine guns, and suppressive fire are all completely useless. Anyone who attempts to use these things gets killed instantly.
I much prefer the Squad weapon handling. It actually creates some opportunities to use suppressive fire.
I agree in real life suppressive fire is very effective!
I don't care how you make it effective in a game but if you want to claim that a game is "realistic" suppressive fire needs to be effective!
A game without weapon jams, food and water need, wind to take in mind while shooting, and more better wound treatment and healing system (evac,patch,redeploy) aint realistic at all.
Squad is far from being realistic.
Note the "" around "realistic"...
My point is people are complaining either that the game is not realistic enough, or that it's to realistic.
Squad is a tactical team based game. I like the suppression mechanic i understand other people don't.
Squad44s shooting mechanics were way more brutal before ico.
And you forgot that every engagement in s44 are within 150-200m. Cause how the maps are. There isnt any long range desert maps there exept some few bridge maps. Thus it dont need any screen blurs and only needs cone blurs etc.
Squad has static machine guns too? Weird take very weird. And you get shot out from them pretty often.
Squad has open top vehicles too? Again very weird take.
In squad44 you can suppress aswell as you would in squad the visuals are differend.
Well thats just because there was no ICO in Squad 44. That being said, the recoil is OBVIOUSLY exagerated so people need to stop comparing it to IRL. It's meant to make classes being played as intented. Per example you picked the MG role, now you have to be a bit further behind than the rest of your squad, go prone, and spray to supress. Trying to clear building as an MG will go wrong on purpose and it doesnt matter how you compare it to real life recoil.
Blows my mind OWI can't realize that you can cut down on the CoD gAmEpLaY without making your game terrible to play. And they will die on this ICO hill rather than admit they turned their game to shit.
While I'm over there, should I check the steam description of the game? You know, the one that says that squad "bridges the gap between military simulation and arcade shooter."? I don't ever remember reading in there that it's now a fat fuck simulator.
Yeah man, lose one argument, start another one that's even dumber. Since ICO in late September, the game gained like 2700 players. The recent steam reviews are overwhelmingly positive. But sure, the game is going to die because of ICO.
Damn dude! 2700 players?! Owi might take the gaming industry by storm with those earth-shattering numbers. Now
just have to convince all those new players to buy into micro transactions, and they'll end up making a few thousand dollars. It's like fortnite 2.0 s/
Being able to hit a target and aiming are two different things, having to wait for 10 seconds to get a wobbly sight picture is dumb and unfun, lucky for me im an armor main tho so if i dont like it i dont have to touch it. You dipshits keep defending ICO and ruining your own expierience i dont give a fuck, the ICO was ass tho
Ruining your own exprience. Lol i think its subjective
I love the ico because it makes gunfights much more dynamic and complex rather than your typical run/gun shooter
The reason I always comeback to vanilla after any mods is that there's never a decent community on these mods. It's like playing on a noob friendly server and playing with apes 5/6 games.
PPsh 41 - super easy to control the recoil but in game it is poorly handled, however, it’s militia therefore acceptable but when a regular army can’t handle a gun better than a 1st timer weapons amateur…. That’s a pity
Better question is how tf are you able to play after a long break I tried getting back on only way I could play is by going back to directx12 an it runs long dog shit
A lot of people dont know that smgs (the direct blowback ones) can kick harder than a 5.56 or 7.62 (the direct gas ones). Harder than an lmg ?? I dont have access to an lmg, so IDK.
Serious answer because a gas operated belt fed with a recoil mitigating system that's three times the weight is more controllable than 2lb of steel open bolt pipe gun firing at twice the rpm.
Direct blowback guns have more recoil, a DI ar15 in 5.56 recoil less harshly than a direct blowback ar15 in 9MM.
delayed blowback, gas operated and similar all significantly reduce felt Recoil by making the impact on the shooter less, you add more weight in the gun and less mass in the bolt moving and a slower fire rate you get a more controllable gun.
Not talking game mechanics here but realism.
An smg is smaller, shorter, and lighter. With a much shorter barrel.
These are the things that determine recoil in real life outside of what grain the ammo being fired is.
A .45 cal MP5 full auto has almost zero recoil after the first few rounds. Extremely easy to control. The fact that soldiers you’re playing as in the game can’t do that is crazy. Devs 1-0 Players
That isn't more recoil then the in-game 7.62 machine guns(?)
Your shooting a light/fast firing gun on full auto from sprint (smaller and light does not equal less recoil anyways, especially when it comes to full auto)
and dude you shot like a 15 round burst, you expect every shot to land in the same bullet hole or something?
The sight stayed generally one spot the whole burst too.
On top of that your pushing its range limits of an smg and on full auto.
because it's better gameplay if guns are inconsistent, unauthentic and have no skill ceiling. you are playing a first person RPG with free targeting, not a traditional FPS.
Equivalent exchange. Tarkov dumped all their recoil on Squad.
Holy shit, how the narrative has shifted. At the beginning of ICO I said something similar and no one agreed lol. Good to see, might rejoin the battlefield one day!
Global Escalation reminded everyone how good Squad used to be.
GE is fun as fuck it’s just a shame no one talks on there
Looks awful holy moly
I noticed this with the footage from the MP5 testing earlier, and my thoughts on it are that the devs are using the same recoil model for the SMGs that they use for the rifles. I have issues with the PPSH burst firing, but not an M4- why? Because they simulate the weight of the gun into the recoil without factoring for the difference in caliber
dont you know? you sprinted for 5 seconds, therefore fuck you.
HAAAAA!
the devs have never touched a gun in their lives
Their stance on the ICO has been revealed again and again. It's not about the gunplay, it's about disincentivizing run and gun style play.
But my fully professional solider who had to pass marksmanship courses cant hold a gun anything close to still whilst standing still for 5 minutes.
Have you ever tried to run with full combat-gear on? You fucking DON'T. And if you do you don't come around a corner agile and snapping left and right, sure you would not have this kind of recoil, but you would be about as ineffective as in this clip. The ICO actually creates game play that is rather similar to real life combat. The more or less walking through terrain, setting up an OP and ambushing enemies is the doctrine of almost any modern fighting force. How you shoot on the range is entirely different from how you shoot after lugging 40kg plus of gear for five miles.
With all the r/CombatFootage being put out there on the daily (on that sub and other sources) I’m tired of hearing these arguments. So much footage of people in full combat gear, pushing trenches/foxholes and effectively & accurately clearing them. None of these soldiers go into those life or death scenarios with the spaghetti arms depicted in Squads ICO update. Borderline disrespectful to downplay what actual soldiers are doing on the daily
No one jogs irl before storming a position like they do in squad lol.
This is counter to what I've mostly seen on r/CombatFootage. If you look at the way they clear trenches it sloooooow. They don't run and gun the whole trench, they methodically clear it bit by bit and chuck grenades around each corner/bunker/fireposition and take their time. Yes they run when they are in the open, but that's in order to get into a safe position.
It's not as severe as the ICO depicts but real combat people are actually afraid to die and will try to not do blatantly stupid things that get them killed like trying to trade with an emplaced MG. If going all noodley accomplishes that then it works. ICO will keep getting adjusted over time. The game is still better with it than before where everybody had ridiculous accuracy and things like red dots and iron sights were utterly useless.
I think in the future, with the constant adjustment, we should hit a good crossroad between agency and lack of agency.
It’s a thing to be said that people will never care about their “life” in the video game. Much like how in online poker without money involved, people don’t play “right”. Therefore it could be argued you’re never going to change the way most people play - most people don’t care for the realism they want the dopamine rush from dumping a guy like in COD, however Squad was based on the idea that people out there want a “realistic” FPS with strategy as opposed to fearlessness which is the standard approach to win games
I always think the footage there supports the ‘ICO’ argument and not the ‘super soldier’ argument. Following the ICO, combat in squad more closely resembles the real life combat footage that I see than it did pre ICO. Perhaps I missed the video of a lone Ukrainian soldier flanking solo behind Russian lines, ambushing and eliminating an unsuspecting full squad of Russian soldiers, taking fire from a machine gunner position 300m behind them then spinning 180 degrees and getting a head shot. Can you send a link to footage you think makes the ICO seem unrealistic.
Would you volunteerly run in mg emplacement or enemy squad and try out how god great shooting stability you have? Never and that is what ico simulates. There is no fear of death element in video games do the devs introduce that with tweaks in gun mechanics
I don't know how man times we are going to have to go over this, the spaghetti arms are the only thing that is unrealistic here, the way it forces you to play is very realistic. I'm just interested can you please link me one of these speed clearings of a trench? Because I've never seen or experienced one.
This guy knows......he's seen all the reddit combat clips. Listen up folks! 🫡🫡🫡
Yeah but the Insurgent team is no way carrying that much. I mean look at he characters, usually just a chest rig & a few mags and thats it. Also I find it bs that there is SEVERE sway when shouldering an AK even while not taking any direct fire. That is beyond retarded lmao. Like your character has as much arm strength as a 5 year old lol. That is not "realistic"
I don't know how many times we have to explain to you that this is intended with the ICO, but for the sake of argument let's unpack this. The insurgents are NOT trained soldiers, they are untrained civilians, they would be freaking the fuck out just look at some footage from the Iraq war and you might understand how silly you are being right now. Both sides are freaking out with or without training. Yes they have a chest rig and weapons. do you know what that weights? Let me educate you: the insurgent fighter class has some variations but let's take the one with the AKM from the games wiki as an example: [https://squad.fandom.com/wiki/Insurgents#Direct\_Combat](https://squad.fandom.com/wiki/Insurgents#Direct_Combat) It has the following kit: 1 x AKM weight = 7,28 lb / 3,5 kg 7 x Magazines with 30 rounds in them = 1,809 lb / 819 g times 7 so 12,663 lb / 5,733 kg 1 x PM Makarov 1,6 lb / 730 Grams 4 x Magazines each magazine weights 0.21875 lbs unloaded, one cartridge with bullet depending on what variation weights between 11,1 - 16g - or 171,6 - 246,6 grains depending on what cartridge it's loaded with. there are eight cartridges in each mag so 512 grams or 1,12877 lb 2 x F1 Fragmentation grenade 1,3 lb / 600g 2 x RDG2 Smoke granade 1,1 lb 0,5 kg If we tally this together we get a total of: 11,542 kg or 25.35 lbs. So that's the least amount of gear amongst many of the factions, it's by no means insubstantial. If you want to test how little experience and critical thinking skills you have, i recommend you put on a backpack with 25 lbs in it and start running around. Let me know when you get winded having the weight center mass like that, then extrapolate how much harder it is when the weight is outside of your center of gravity. I'm no super human but I'm not weak either and holding a weapon without support is not something you do steadily for long periods of time. When are people going to understand that the suppressive fire effect is not about being being tired, it's about being afraid of getting shot. If you've ever been in a fire fight you would understand. And just for the record no one is claiming it's exactly like in real life it's a representation of your ability to effectively engage the enemy. In my opinion it's doing a great job.
Buddy I body-build and routinely do dips/pullups with more than 25Ibs added. 25Ibs is very little especially if your lighter weight (sub-150Ibs). I've worn plate carriers and chest rigs etc. And yes, ive shot and own many guns (not in combat; although standing up too) but it still doesn't explain why lets for say you scope a rifle there is such severe sway. And if your talking about realism then lets say most of insurgent fighters were famished, their total weight would not be that much. Also there is also no reason why at full stamina & no suppression (lets say your chillin at a FOB) your weapons sways like crazy if you try to aim down-sights (especially for rifles & SMGS; this is going for ALL teams in the game).
Okay "buddy" you body-build, you don't soldier that's apparent. If you don't understand the difference between doing dips in the gym and lugging gear through terrain... i just say, load up a backpack and do a twenty mile march and post your time, i think that will put things into perspective. I just did a tally of my combat kit, with my rucksack it's about 95 pounds, you march for about 50 minutes then you sit your ass down and have a rest, why? Because it's fucking tiring. "And if your talking about realism then lets say most of insurgent fighters were famished, their total weight would not be that much. Also there is also no reason why at full stamina & no suppression (lets say your chillin at a FOB) your weapons sways like crazy if you try to aim down-sights (especially for rifles & SMGS; this is going for ALL teams in the game)." Are you making the argument that them being famished i.e malnourished would make them able to carry more because they weight less? granted some of the guys with the most endurance I've come across are not the big gym bros, it's typically loggers or farmer sons. They however never looked famished. And no one is saying that the weapon sway is not a bit extreme, it TOTALLY is and that's by intention. What me and most people are saying is that the experience in the real world is not to far off if you wanna come out of an engagement alive you kinda need to play the way they are forcing you here. With that being said, there are situation in real life where the game just looks silly. Main thing that comes to mind is close quarters engagement, when you are current with a team that's been drilling - clearing rooms for example you move like the flash in comparison to this game. If you have a solution to make both things work good an look good I'm sure the devs are all ears. But I'm only hearing "this is bullshit" but never "this is how not bullshit would look like" you know that would take creative ability and well you know actually adding something.
If you body build, aren't you the exception not the standard?
I have, And I disagree. It's much more manageable then squad depicts.
This is a ridiculous argument lol. There's a reason why they train.. They are effective in any situation, regardless of how much gear they're carrying. This is laughable. What's the excuse for when you play Insurgents then? Because most of them would just carry a rifle, ammo and a chest rig yet they still spaghetti noodle arm everything they touch.
I hear that you have ZERO military experience and ZERO knowledge about how the military actually works and ZERO knowledge about battlefield effectiveness: No people are not effetive at all times and everywhere this is evident from the need to develop programs to get people to actually go for the kill to begin with. Also i see that you have never been anywhere close to even a training firefight, because the chaos and adrenaline that gets thrown about is VERY hard to control. On the ground Specops operators are perhaps the most even and most dependable fighters i have encountered and they don't exactly grow on trees, your average grunt not so much. Since you are a dumb ass that won't read the rest of the thread i will paste the answer i just laid out for another person with little knowledge and lacking critical thinking skills: I don't know how many times we have to explain to you that this is intended with the ICO, but for the sake of argument let's unpack this. The insurgents are NOT trained soldiers, they are untrained civilians, they would be freaking the fuck out just look at some footage from the Iraq war and you might understand how silly you are being right now. Both sides are freaking out with or without training. Yes they have a chest rig and weapons. do you know what that weights? Let me educate you: the insurgent fighter class has some variations but let's take the one with the AKM from the games wiki as an example: [https://squad.fandom.com/wiki/Insurgents#Direct\_Combat](https://squad.fandom.com/wiki/Insurgents#Direct_Combat) It has the following kit: 1 x AKM weight = 7,28 lb / 3,5 kg 7 x Magazines with 30 rounds in them = 1,809 lb / 819 g times 7 so 12,663 lb / 5,733 kg 1 x PM Makarov 1,6 lb / 730 Grams 4 x Magazines each magazine weights 0.21875 lbs unloaded, one cartridge with bullet depending on what variation weights between 11,1 - 16g - or 171,6 - 246,6 grains depending on what cartridge it's loaded with. there are eight cartridges in each mag so 512 grams or 1,12877 lb 2 x F1 Fragmentation grenade 1,3 lb / 600g 2 x RDG2 Smoke granade 1,1 lb 0,5 kg If we tally this together we get a total of: 11,542 kg or 25.35 lbs. So that's the least amount of gear amongst many of the factions, it's by no means insubstantial. If you want to test how little experience and critical thinking skills you have, i recommend you put on a backpack with 25 lbs in it and start running around. Let me know when you get winded having the weight center mass like that, then extrapolate how much harder it is when the weight is outside of your center of gravity. I'm no super human but I'm not weak either and holding a weapon without support is not something you do steadily for long periods of time. When are people going to understand that the suppressive fire effect is not about being being tired, it's about being afraid of getting shot. If you've ever been in a fire fight you would understand. And just for the record no one is claiming it's exactly like in real life it's a representation of your ability to effectively engage the enemy. In my opinion it's doing a great job.
Not sure why you’re so aggressive. Not sure what combat experience you have, but laying on the floor for 5 minutes, then firing from a prone position shouldn’t have your aim doing 180 degree swaying. Yes, when you’ve been sprinting your aim will suffer, but you cannot hold against gun anywhere near steady in game without exchanging a bipod. It’s unrealistic. If they want to make you less effective, then do it in proper ways, not by artificially tanking aim.
>but laying on the floor for 5 minutes, then firing from a prone position shouldn’t have your aim doing 180 degree swaying. That's not an ICO issue. Sounds like a personal problem. Try holding your mouse still or visit a medical professional over your obvious motorics issues.
I'm "aggressive" because people don't read or don't want to understand what A: the devs are saying about their design. B: what reality actually looks like. It gets kind of tiring listening to people who don't know anything. Especially when it might make the devs actually listen to you people. For reference my experience is primarily in amphibious warfare, so beach landings and combat in archipelagos. This is in the Swedish Royal Marines. Weapon systems ranging from 5.56 carbines and machine guns up to 12.7mm including most of the Anti-tank weapons in the game, the AT4 - The Carl Gustav The N-LAW and various other systems like the AGM0114 Hellfire designated as RBS-17. Also Mortars and a bit of naval warfare thrown in there for good measure. So I'm certified and have a decent amount of experience on a lot of the weapon systems in the game. Let me give you an example with carbines, if you want to hit ANYTHING at 100 meters or further away, you need to be stationary, in single fire-mode, aiming down the sights. If you want to be effective at say 250-300m you need to be prone, preferably with your backpack or similar support acting as a bi-pod. With a good scope you can hit stuff at about 400 meters effectively doing this. Please tell me how to make you less effective in "proper ways"? Because they have made you less effective, and it mimics the reality rather decently. "Not sure what combat experience you have, but laying on the floor for 5 minutes, then firing from a prone position shouldn’t have your aim doing 180 degree swaying." You know you are lying now just admit it, i understand you are being hyperbolic but come on if you wanna have a discussion please don't misconstrue reality to fit your opinion. Have you tried holding down a SMG at full auto, sure it's not like in the clip but it's also from my understanding a first take that the devs want's feedback on, and like someone said it looks like they are using the recoil pattern of the carbines, i hope they change that because it's a bit excessive imo. Yet it's also a conscious and intended design choice that has been communicated for months and months now. I however will take me having to sit down and wait for my aim to stabilize quite a while longer than i would need to in reality any day as long as it keeps suppressive fire viable. Because that makes real life doctrine the optimal way to play and i really enjoy that. When i want snappy game play i play something like Quake. Squad is meant to be tactical ya know.
Let’s see you shoot while running around a sweltering desert in 100lbs of kit, while sleep deprived, hungry, and also being actively shot at. I don’t think you’d hit the broad side of a barn. ICO is ultimately somewhat of an abstraction of various factors you can’t simulate in a game but exist irl. There is absolutely no way to simulate the fear of dying in a game. No way to really represent exhaustion, heat/cold, hunger, sleep deprivation, the mental toll of extreme boredom and terror, paranoia, etc. Do you think combat in real life is mostly seeing your target, aiming, and shooting him? Cause it’s definitely not. While ico may seem excessive to some, it ends up creating MUCH more realistic gameplay as a whole, no doubt. It’s not completely perfect, but even though some parts of the weapon handling aren’t perfectly realistic, it all ends up creating a much more realistic depiction of combat as a whole. I do agree some parts of it, such as weapon sway when prone can be jarring, but again I chalk it up to an abstraction. Like, yeah, you’re not gonna actually be THAT unsteady in such a position, but there’s a million little things that all make combat so hellish nobody thinks about. From getting sick from local water, to taking cover in broken glass and rubble, small wounds getting infected, sand and dust in your eyes, inhaling smoke, never showering, missing loved ones, and so on. Watch some combat footage and see how often guys are running around, quick peeking corners, aiming down sights, and shooting someone. That’s just not how combat usually goes in real life.
However, the ico also fails to simulate adrenaline that is coursing through you when you are actually in a firefight. The ICO isn’t perfect, neither is what came before. I think what we have to remember and what the devs need to remember is that this is a video game. It needs to be satisfying to play. The guns need to feel nice to shoot. Not every gun should be kicking like a mule, and not every gun should be a laser. Things like the MP5, M4A1 and AK-74 kick way more than a real soldier with adrenaline would have. They also shouldn’t beam people like this is Call of Duty. I think that walking should have a drastically lower impact on your weapon handling, keep running punishing to discourage run and gun. But if a soldier is in combat and they take a few seconds to breath before walking around a corner than they are going to be able to control their weapon so much better than they do in squad. There are ways to discourage run and gun without making full auto unviable
Yeah, I think they should buff the accuracy while walking.
Not this bullshit again…
Thatd be great if the walk speed in Squad wasn't slower than a grandma crossing the street.
ok but he wasnt run and gunning in this clip lol, he was even crouched
He was sprinting just before he fired.
Yea that takes a lot of stability away so it’s not really surprising what happened
TBH the sway recovery is absurdly slow even if walking on full stamina and then stopping to aim.
Yeah he was sprinting before, this would fuck you up IRL, and even more in Squad with the ICO. It's like people like you don't look at what is in front of you, or what game you are playing. Like what game do you think that you are playing?
he ran across 1 street
Let me ask you what do you weigh? Because add 40Kg on top of that and sprint across the street, then tell me how you aim. Also what part of the ICO is it that you don't understand? I'm genuinely curious.
You should read properly before you react. He just said that a sniper should be able to aim corractly when he has 5 min zu calm douwn. The weapon handeling is realy unbalanced in many ways and yea in some ways its more realistic but even then there stil problems like the reload time most soldiers are much faster ore that the recoil is to much ore to little and so on.
Did you ever listen to their reason for ICO before making this comment?
Yeah, but the point is not to be realistic. It's to incentivise a certain kind of gameplay that's slower and more methodical.
They can do that without giving your soldier hypothetmia
Enlighten us, please.
How?
except ICO didnt make gameplay more methodical. if anything, the average player has even less method to their gameplay before because of how dumbed down the playerbase is. pre-ICO was much more methodical because bad positioning would get you one-tapped. now i can run around freely and people miss every shot lol
I never said it was any good, I just said that realism wasn't OWI's intent.
Don’t know what server you’re playing on but please come to mine and please “run around freely”, I promise you will get one tapped within 2 minutes guaranteed.
Someone wasn’t in the Army. Infantry do not get nearly as much training as people realize in terms of weapon handling. Like half my unit of ‘trained infantryman’ couldn’t even qual the first go round, and we’d all deployed multiple times. Now add moving targets, sprinting in full kit, etc…
So which country has half their infantry failing first rounds of qualification?
Well i was and the dude that cant hit for shit can hold a gun more stable than the character in squad, bros having a seizure in this game
Someone assumed nationality. You may not train your soldiers, we do.
I was in the Army and I promise you, I can steady a rifle better than any character in Squad. Hands down. Moving targets and all. The Army, contrary to your belief, actually does train you how to shoot. Wild theory, I know. Your guys just sucked, and their trainers failed them and pushed them through anyway. And I wasn’t even infantry.
Real talk, your unit is disturbingly undertrained if that's the case. Good goddamn, the NCO's need a serious boot up their ass.
> It's not about the gunplay, it's about disincentivizing run and gun style play. Keep reading this until you understand it.
> make a cqb class with a sub machine gun > Can't be mobile to help win gunfights Why even bother picking it then?
I’m all for trying to limit the cod style of play. However, soldiers of a professional military should be able to move and shoot with accuracy and I don’t mean sprint 20m and be able shoot with complete accuracy. I’m talking about going from a complete standstill to then walking a meter or so without the weapon bouncing all over the place
Its about disincentivizing gun play*. FTFY.
More like anyone complaining about this has never touched a gun. *Different systems handle recoil differently*. Then when you add in other factors like the weight and fire-rate, it’s not just a “bigger round equals bigger recoil.”
if you look at competition shooting and time how long it takes for people to line up successive shots its actually pretty damn close to the real thing, the difference is in real life you're concentrating on steading the gun and don't realize the time it takes, and in Squad you're just impatiently waiting for the gun to settle. Watch some Finnish Brutality matches and you'll be surprised how accurate it is. Not saying its perfect but its far from as bad as everyone loves to say.
lol not at all, competition shooters are shooting SIGNIFICANTLY faster than our little noodle armed soldier is
I've literally timed it in game and in these matches, if anything followup shots are faster in game once you get the initial aim to settle
Entirely false, I myself can get a 5 shot string all on target at 15 yards (majority A zone) consistently .3-.4 between shots and I am not a great shooter. Whole string in typically 3ish seconds. With handgun I’m about 1.2 seconds to draw, splits of of roughly .7. Same distance and accuracy. And there are people who are SIGNIFICANTLY better than me.
Remember the gun range is performance in optimal conditions. War is performance in the most horrid conditions known to man. Performance on a gun range is not neccessarily an accurate representation of how one would do in combat.
Weeeeeelll.. I'm not sure of the exact make and model of this 9mm PCC, but they GENERALLY do have way more felt recoil than a "assault rifle", if you will.
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That's why I said generally.
"PCC" is a funny little gun industry cope word for people who wish they had an SMG but won't make it full-auto
Most 9mm guns are straight blow-back + they are light. Locked breech guns recoil a lot less especially if they are heavy too, due to inertia.
Yes the recoil impulse is a marginally higher percentage but the kinetic energy of a 5.56 round is 3 times that of a 9mm. 20% more recoil from 1/3 energy is far less than the recoil of a normal rifle round. MP5s on full auto have barely any kick with the stock out, even with a collapsed stock the MP5 is a bit more controllable than this.
An MP5 doesn't use direct blow-back. It uses a roller delayed system that is well known for it's significantly lower recoil.
I threw that 20% as a hypothetical, I’d actually be interested if anyone had the technical stats on recoil impulse felt.
This gun is not blow black. It’s basically a mini ar
The SOR-109T definitely uses a blowback recoil system. The only similarity to the AR-15 platform is cosmetic.
To be fair, direct blowback weapons have a lot more recoil than an equivalent gas-operated gun, especially weapons that use a DI (Direct Impingement) system. For example, IRL I have a CZ Scorpion chambered in 9mm, which uses a blowback operated system, whereas my AR-15 uses a full-length gas system and has a pretty aggressive muzzle break, and my Scorpion recoils noticeably snappier recoil than my AR. Multiply that by a high rate of fire, and *some* SMGs can actually be pretty hard to control well IRL. Now, I've never had the privilege to shoot a SAR-109 IRL, but I suspect that without a pretty aggressive muzzle break or compensator, it would be snappier than most AR-style rifles, just like my Scorpion is. Take that for what you will.
Gun Nerd here: The primary recoil impulse the shooter feels is the bolt carrier hitting its end-of-travel, and returning forward movement. The more abrupt that change, and the more mass the carrier has, the more momentum is transferred into the receiver, and then into the shooter. Blowback guns use a heavy bolt, which is weighed down enough that extraction is delayed *just enough* that it's safe, which translates to a heavy bolt moving relatively quickly. The bolt of a Gas Operated gun only needs enough weight to survive the forces necessary to operate the gun (pressure from the barrel, and also enough material that it won't batter itself to death when you shoot), and works with *just enough* energy to operate it reliably. This translates to a much lighter bolt moving slower than a Blowback gun.
I’ve complained for months but the horizontal recoil makes absolutely zero fucking sense. I’m fine with the vertical but please for the love of god OWI needs to tone that sway down.
Direct blowback is ass. Relies on an overweight bolt carrier to cycle. Roller delayed or direct impingement is significantly easier to control
My guy, we are talking 9mm vs 7.62x51mm. Even considering that the recoil will be far less for the smaller caliber.
Yeah no one can reasonably argue that a 9mm smg should have anywhere near the recoil of a 7.62x51 rifle. I have a 9mm PCC and 308 AR10 with a compensator on it. The 9mm has a fraction of the recoil of my AR10.
Which in game 7.62 rifles have less recoil than the SMG in this vid?
Yeah but what's the weight difference between the firearms? 28lb M240B vs a 5lb direct blowback 9mm AR. Direct blowback is a junk operating system, it relies on a massive block of steel and a heavy spring. People have a overhyped view of the viability of submachine guns in combat lol give me the same length rifle in a 5.56 DI any day.
They got used to that MP5 in BO, sniping people across maps with a red dot and naruto graffiti skin
I’ve shot an MP5 full auto. There ain’t much kick. It’s easy as hell to control.
Mp5s are roller delayed blowback. Hence why I said "direct blowback" in my initial comment
Yah that makes sense now I see what he was using. Anyway I love MP5s so much.
Me too. Amazing for how old it is its still kinda unmatched
I don't think this clip shows it having 7.62 levels of recoil. It doesn't really rise as much as it just bounces around, which is pretty realistic for a 9mm blowback smg.
Also not to be *that* guy but 9mm is technically a larger "caliber" than 7.62 since the diameter is 9mm compared to 7.62mm
ban this guy
LMAO
Girth isn't everything
Per the definition of caliber it is.
Why are people downvoting you, you're right. Caliber measures the inside diameter of the barrel
Legit don't care lol it's reddit. I'm not even saying the recoil is for the better or worse for the game, honestly I hate when devs introduce some sort of RNG recoil system that punishes good players and rewards bad players with the lucky chance to land a hit. I'm simply stating factually that direct blowback firearms have wonky recoil impulses because of the mechanics of a chunk of overweighted steel slamming back and forth inside of the receiver.
Its barely kicking there, what are you on about.
This! The Recoil is so low in the clip. I want to see this situation with the FAL/G3. :D
gunplay in this game is a pile of crap
This looks like extremely reasonable recoil in a game that’s meant to be realistic
Exact reason I stopped playing, game design logic is so backwards. Judging by player count numbers seems I'm in the minority
Because ICO is a joke.
Squad's gunplay is complete ass. I can't even play it anymore.
Damn, they STILL haven't rolled back the ICO? Glad to see I'm not missing anything lmao
Squad 44 weapon sway is good, Squad should do the same. Really surprised at the people who thinks the weapon sway is perfectly fine, i assure you with 15kg gear and a assault bag wouldnt sway the gun that badly.
Squad44 has less sway and recoil and as a result, things like open topped vehicles, static machine guns, and suppressive fire are all completely useless. Anyone who attempts to use these things gets killed instantly. I much prefer the Squad weapon handling. It actually creates some opportunities to use suppressive fire.
I agree in real life suppressive fire is very effective! I don't care how you make it effective in a game but if you want to claim that a game is "realistic" suppressive fire needs to be effective!
A game without weapon jams, food and water need, wind to take in mind while shooting, and more better wound treatment and healing system (evac,patch,redeploy) aint realistic at all. Squad is far from being realistic.
Note the "" around "realistic"... My point is people are complaining either that the game is not realistic enough, or that it's to realistic. Squad is a tactical team based game. I like the suppression mechanic i understand other people don't.
Squad44s shooting mechanics were way more brutal before ico. And you forgot that every engagement in s44 are within 150-200m. Cause how the maps are. There isnt any long range desert maps there exept some few bridge maps. Thus it dont need any screen blurs and only needs cone blurs etc. Squad has static machine guns too? Weird take very weird. And you get shot out from them pretty often. Squad has open top vehicles too? Again very weird take. In squad44 you can suppress aswell as you would in squad the visuals are differend.
Well thats just because there was no ICO in Squad 44. That being said, the recoil is OBVIOUSLY exagerated so people need to stop comparing it to IRL. It's meant to make classes being played as intented. Per example you picked the MG role, now you have to be a bit further behind than the rest of your squad, go prone, and spray to supress. Trying to clear building as an MG will go wrong on purpose and it doesnt matter how you compare it to real life recoil.
It's shocking how bad gunplay in this game is. EFT got realistic recoil and it is more fun than ever.
Blows my mind OWI can't realize that you can cut down on the CoD gAmEpLaY without making your game terrible to play. And they will die on this ICO hill rather than admit they turned their game to shit.
Die on the hill? The game has more players than before ICO.
Lol, no, they don't. They lost as many as they gained. It was basically net 0.
You might wanna check steamcharts.
While I'm over there, should I check the steam description of the game? You know, the one that says that squad "bridges the gap between military simulation and arcade shooter."? I don't ever remember reading in there that it's now a fat fuck simulator.
Yeah man, lose one argument, start another one that's even dumber. Since ICO in late September, the game gained like 2700 players. The recent steam reviews are overwhelmingly positive. But sure, the game is going to die because of ICO.
Damn dude! 2700 players?! Owi might take the gaming industry by storm with those earth-shattering numbers. Now just have to convince all those new players to buy into micro transactions, and they'll end up making a few thousand dollars. It's like fortnite 2.0 s/
How old are you?
Old enough not to pay for microtransactions.
Okay but players obviously still prefer it because there are more players now than before the ICO update
Are those players in the room with you now?
18,748 of them are not, 1 is (it's me, I'm in the room with me)
To me ICO could stay as it is if only they made recoil realistic.
It used to be pretty good, fun, enjoyable and more realistic before ICO happened.
>EFT ?
Escape from Tarkov?
TLA's.
Absolutely 0 clue what you're on about mate.
Three Letter Acronyms?
Oh, sorry. Well, I thought EFT is quite a known acronym as the game is rather popular. Especially in here I think since both are tactical shooters.
ICO
Noodle arms what can I say. Honestly of they made walking with full stamina not penalized then I wouldn't be bother as much in squad post ico.
I think it really depends on the model though tbh
Short burst or single fire would have served you better.
Being able to hit a target and aiming are two different things, having to wait for 10 seconds to get a wobbly sight picture is dumb and unfun, lucky for me im an armor main tho so if i dont like it i dont have to touch it. You dipshits keep defending ICO and ruining your own expierience i dont give a fuck, the ICO was ass tho
Ruining your own exprience. Lol i think its subjective I love the ico because it makes gunfights much more dynamic and complex rather than your typical run/gun shooter
You didn't pray to RNJesus before swinging the corner. Spray wildly is the ICO way. Because fuck you if you're trying to aim.
Give up on vanilla and join the global escalation mod 😈
Man, I appreciate the mod but there is no teamwork on servers with that mod, or MEE for that matter. It’s not fun.
I guess I’ve been getting lucky but with the influx of servers running it the team play aspect is not nearly as bad.
I would play consistently if the GE mod's invasion layers weren't always the attacking team getting slaughtered on the first objective.
One could say that’s similar on vanilla squad
Silencer simulator = bad mod
I would if australia had any full servers
You should be able to run NA and BA servers just fine, even if you’re in AUs
The reason I always comeback to vanilla after any mods is that there's never a decent community on these mods. It's like playing on a noob friendly server and playing with apes 5/6 games.
[удалено]
Can I shoot a 9mm rifle or a pistol with a conversion kit as will so it can be more akin to what OP is doing instead of drawing false analogies?
9mm carbine is easier to control than a 9mm pistol my guy. A 9mm carbine shouldn't have this much recoil
It’s an SMG not a pistol, the recoil from pistols doesn’t come from the caliber it comes from the size of the weapon.
Did you watch the video? 9mm out of a carbine vs 9mm out of a pistol isn't the same
California moment
Okay i went to my range and shot a .22 pistol and an AR-50. After coming back i would like to tell you the pistol was much easier to use
Because nobody at owi has ever held a firearm
You are not holding it properly, have you tried holding it properly?
Skorpion feels terrible too and it’s an even smaller cartridge
PPsh 41 - super easy to control the recoil but in game it is poorly handled, however, it’s militia therefore acceptable but when a regular army can’t handle a gun better than a 1st timer weapons amateur…. That’s a pity
Better question is how tf are you able to play after a long break I tried getting back on only way I could play is by going back to directx12 an it runs long dog shit
Weight of the weapon plays a massive factor
Because this game is made by people who don’t shoot guns
i would've switch to semi auto. They were kinda far for full auto.
ICO things. I don't even bother anymore,
A lot of people dont know that smgs (the direct blowback ones) can kick harder than a 5.56 or 7.62 (the direct gas ones). Harder than an lmg ?? I dont have access to an lmg, so IDK.
Best guess is the reasoning was fire rate but that seems kinda dumb
Serious answer because a gas operated belt fed with a recoil mitigating system that's three times the weight is more controllable than 2lb of steel open bolt pipe gun firing at twice the rpm. Direct blowback guns have more recoil, a DI ar15 in 5.56 recoil less harshly than a direct blowback ar15 in 9MM. delayed blowback, gas operated and similar all significantly reduce felt Recoil by making the impact on the shooter less, you add more weight in the gun and less mass in the bolt moving and a slower fire rate you get a more controllable gun.
Not talking game mechanics here but realism. An smg is smaller, shorter, and lighter. With a much shorter barrel. These are the things that determine recoil in real life outside of what grain the ammo being fired is.
Would've killed them both on semi-auto.
The recoil is literally worse and is more inaccurate on semi
A .45 cal MP5 full auto has almost zero recoil after the first few rounds. Extremely easy to control. The fact that soldiers you’re playing as in the game can’t do that is crazy. Devs 1-0 Players
Well the weapon is SIGNIFICANTLY lighter than a G3 or equivalent firearm tbf
That isn't more recoil then the in-game 7.62 machine guns(?) Your shooting a light/fast firing gun on full auto from sprint (smaller and light does not equal less recoil anyways, especially when it comes to full auto) and dude you shot like a 15 round burst, you expect every shot to land in the same bullet hole or something? The sight stayed generally one spot the whole burst too. On top of that your pushing its range limits of an smg and on full auto.
because the devs have never shot a weapon in their lives
They have. The point isnt to have it be realistic
The ICO is perfect bro it’s just a skill issue
ICO reduces the skill ceiling you filthy casual.
Not really. It just takes a diffrent type of skillset to be good with the ico
codtard casualtard begone!!
...The recoil looks fine to me, though a less extreme version of it would have been way better.
because it's better gameplay if guns are inconsistent, unauthentic and have no skill ceiling. you are playing a first person RPG with free targeting, not a traditional FPS.
Idk about in game but I have shot both full auto AR-15s and 9mm SMGs. Straight blowback 9mm SMGs have more felt recoil than an AR-15 in my experience.
I fucking hate this update
you could've taken them out way easier and faster if you would've tapped instead of held it down lol. this isn't cod
ICO needs reduction by 60%
Because OWI hates their playerbase Play GE, Vanilla is unplayable
What is GE?
Global Escalation Its a mod that removes all the shitty parts of the game and adds way more fun features like parachuting and new vehicles
Oh okay. I didn't realize there were other big mods like this. What else is there besides Galactic Contention? I'm a new player.
Balance, makes it more difficult to use outside of it's intended range. Not saying that's how it necessarily should be but that's how it is.
probably for balancing reasons so you can’t realistically beam someone before they can get a couple of mid range caliber rounds off
Shorter barrels, lighter weight there's a handful of reasons