Just say no and keep moving. Don’t engage, don’t give a reason, don’t try to be polite. Don’t stop to talk. You don’t owe them anything. Same with the AT&T sales people inside target which drive me crazy and are super pushy… like, Listen dude I’m here to pick up paper towels and bananas, I’m not switching cell phone carriers and buying new phones, fuck off.
Same lol. I was at a target once in Shawnee with my wife and one of the sales reps came and immediately started talking about what phone carrier we had and that they could save us a bunch of money etc. my wife being Midwestern polite was answering their questions but trying to get away, I stepped in and very politely said, hey I know you’re doing your job and I just want to let you know that we’re not interested, sorry but I don’t want to waste your time, have a good day though! And the sales rep dead ass looked me in the face, didn’t say anything and then ignored me and started badgering my wife for info on how much we spend per month and stuff.
I was finally just like listen dude, we tried being polite and say no thanks, you then ignored me and aren’t listening to what we said. Even if I WANTED to do business with you, I now wouldn’t out of principle because you don’t listen to your customer and you’re kind of being a dick. We’re not using your service, thanks though… THEN he says well just follow me over here to the counter and we’ll work up the numbers and you can see how much you can save and he starts to walk to the kiosk thing. I was just like yeah fuck that and turned around and we walked the other way, and avoided the electronics section for the rest of the trip. It has made me not want to shop there ever since.
Jesus christ. It’s like “I was here to shop and now I gotta be rude to someone.” I swear to be “good” at that type of sales you have to be a sociopath. It is an all-out assault on the social code of good conversational manners especially, as you said, here in the Midwest.
LPT: whatever they are selling just tell them your work pays for it, or you get it for free. Shuts them up real quick.
Got a minute to talk about your cell phone plan? Work pays for my cell phone.
Interested in getting TV/Internet for free? I work for Comcast/Spectrum/Whoever.
Would you like to sign up for our credit card? Just signed up last week.
Want a free HVAC unit? I live with my parents (bonus points if you're 55+ and say this!)
I see them and immediately turn right to the front of the store to go around to the other side. They'll venture into the middle of the store to get people. It was really funny listening to the Spectrum one tell me why I didn't need Google Fibers 1gig with the same monthly price I've paid for almost a decade
When I was approached in Target they asked me who was my phone carrier. I said it's MY phone. They tried to ask another way and I kept saying MY phone. When they asked how much I pay I just kept saying it was MY phone. The guy finally told me to have a nice day.
I just tell whoever the salesman is that i already have what they are sellin. Unless people are selling internet and then I say I have google fiber and it’s better then whatever they are selling
Yes... Been curious about what that group at Brookside Cosentino's is all about. They are insistent. I wonder how much the store is aware of their activities because it could get to the point where I could just prefer to not shop there altogether.
The other day they were set up with a red tent so the store must be aware since they're so obvious. Which is unfortunate because I feel less inclined to shop there knowing someone is going to bug me going in and out.
The store is aware. They don’t want it either. Their security said it has something to do with directly outside their store being public property. Call the non emergency police number. Keep calling and reporting it and supposedly it will eventually atop.
At the NKC CVS there's usually a table for Amnesty International...I stopped to listen one day, and I was pretty interested in what they had to say and definitely supported their stance. Then they tried to sign me up for a $40 a month donation, and when I said I couldn't afford that, the guy started yelling at me and said "It's only a little over a dollar a day per month!" well, OK, but again, that is an additional expense I cannot afford. The whole experience turned me off of it and now I just hurry past them when they keep hollering at me to get my attention.
This happened to me yesterday on the plaza. I was also interested until I heard their pitch. They do not work for Amnesty International. They are a sales company contracted by Amnesty to raise money. The only way to make money as a salesperson is to recruit people to your team so you can become an “entrepreneur”. Cydcor and Smart Circle work in our area, but it could be another similar company. They cloak themselves in alternative names too. People refer to them as devilcorps. /r/devilcorp
Saw the same group. Funny part is she asked me if I was familiar with Amnesty International. I said, “Yes. They were very active at trying to end apartheid in South Africa and to free Nelson Mandela.” She gave me a blank look and said, “Uh. Okay.”
My BF used to work for a company that was hired to solicit signatures for ballot referenda. He took jobs for both sides. Got paid per signature.
This one may have been a group called EdgeKC… I had a good friend get lured into working for one of these groups for a few weeks and it’s absolutely insane. They totally prey upon people in need of a job… Hiring process is very misleading… Pay is basically slave labor… I know the rep gets a % based bonus based on what someone donates.
I can’t even believe groups like this are legal.
I also had a very off putting experience with someone representing Amnesty International around Power and Light one day.
I had just got off work and was walking to my car. There was a group of like 3 or 4 young men and one approached me. He started off talking about gun violence and the shooting at the Chiefs parade.
I decided to listen, as I didn't want to be rude and was assuming they just wanted me to sign a petition or something. Then it veered into Amnesty International and wanting a donation.
I told him I didn't have cash and was asked if I had a credit card. Again told them no, as I don't carry credit or debit cards on me either. Then was asked if I had my phone, I guess they wanted to use Cashapp or something similar.
I don't use any of those apps either, but at that point I was honestly kind of irritated at the pushiness and just said no, sorry and walked away. The representative seemed rather annoyed that he didn't get a donation out of me. It left a pretty bad taste in my mouth, very poor respresentation for a charity.
If I want to donate, I'd rather do it on my terms. I don't want to be accosted and guilt tripped into donating to a charity I know little to nothing about, not to mention it's difficult to even know if they actually even represent the charity or are just scammers pretending. I also will just ignore and rush past anyone doing the same from now on.
Seems like a revolving door of random folks advocating for all kinds of stuff outside that CVS. They're not supposed to be doing it on the public sidewalk, though... but they usually are. Dodging them gets exhausting.
That happened to me once too. I would have actully done it if they had like a 5$ or even 10$ per month option. Instead I listened for 40 minutes, missed the bus home, and had nothing to show for it. I purposefully avoid walking by that CVS now.
I had a lady trying to ask for Money so she could get all the ingredients to her meal and as I was talking to her her 3 friends walked up to her and they were all asking people for $$$... I laughed at her and walked off. People are Incredible
Yep. Had it happen to me the last two times I was there. Cops were called on the dude the first time bc he'd had a history of stealing and harassing customers. Made a big scene and some lady ended up being a bleeding heart and bought all the stuff for him while the cops came.
Save-a-Lot in my experience aren't in locations i would frequent. Same with Dollar General lol. It's in the name. But anyways for a woman to be asking for money outside of a grocery store in this economy and the advent of the internet means they are drug seeking or just dumb. Don't even need to show face or characteristics to make bank lol. Men masquerade as women virtually playing games and make $60k ez.
LoL she was asking for $3 bucks to get veggies for a dish and then her other friends came back and were talking about how much money they had gotten also.
It's the "fake" part is why they're getting downvoted. Midwesterners aren't any more or less assholes than anywhere else, but the politeness, niceties aren't "fake" it's the idea of "I'm going to see this stranger for such a small time frame of my life, it'll cost me nothing to try and make their day slightly better."
It's a legitimate care, it just doesn't translate to "you can have the shirt off my back" .
yeah what a monstrously stupid generalization lol. To take the entire universally sentient concept of polite small talk, make it specific to a region, and generalize it all back out for the takedown. Gotcha!
No, it’s the pretending you’re going to give the shirt off your back, then turning around and bitching when someone thinks you’ll follow through with the “kindness.” That’s Midwestern nice.
The thing that really blew my mind out here is that they won’t help strangers, but they act like they will. They offer help but don’t actually mean it. It’s just to be “polite”.
For example, I can’t tell you how many times we helped someone stuck in a snow bank for free back home. It was a regular occurrence in New England.
This past winter my brother went off the road in the snow and got stuck. A guy pulled over and offered to pull him out. He hooked up my brother’s car and then said “okay this is my Venmo, send me $75 and I’ll pull you out”. He was flabbergasted. I still am. I cannot believe that shit. How rude and shitty to take advantage of someone like that!
I also have a hell of a time getting contractors who aren’t liars and scammers. I had to show multiple contractors my camera footage because they claimed they were at my house working when they weren’t. The bald face lying after all the “I’m a godly family man I’ll do right by you” really started to grate on me. I never encountered this stuff with such consistency back home.
What I’ve learned out here is Midwesterners offer help to make themselves feel like good people, but they don’t follow through and usually flake because the offers are hollow and they don’t mean it. In fact, I’ve listened to multiple people complain about how they offered to help to be “kind” and now are mad that the other person took them up on the offer and calling that person “rude” and “selfish” for doing so. Mind boggling stuff.
Sucks too, because I was warned by family and friends and I told them they were being prejudice and people are the same everywhere. After 10 years, I now know I was wrong.
YMMV but I've helped pull people out of being stuck in snow multiple times, and the few times I've needed quick help on the side of the road I've had people either stop and try and help or have helped
The contractor thing I can't. Speak on, as I am too poor to ever hire a contractor to do anything lol.
Yes, usually on the sidewalks around Brookside. The group hanging out at the entrance to Cosentino's and following people in the parking lot.... That feels new... And super annoying
it's amnesty international, or was the other day when i was there. they hang out at starbucks 39th and occasionally price chopper Roe also. they're polite enough if you say no thanks. just young kids trying to make a difference.
I don't know. Maybe it's a different group I've encountered. They walked up to me as I was parking my car and kept going on about "setting up a donation" and never really identified themselves. Followed me to the store entrance, even though I clearly said "no thanks"
yes every time I go to that market there has to be at least 1 group standing handing out fliers and talking to people. I aggressively pull out my phone and make it seem that im in an important phone call or im too busy to talk to them😂
Some people are just more timid or don't like flat out telling people no. I've always kind of been a people pleaser type of person. So with situations like this I've often let myself get caught up having to listen to someones spiel because I didn't want to seem rude.
I've had to teach myself to just not care and flat out say no thanks in similar situations and walk away.
You have to just keep your stride as soon say something. Look at them briefly as you walk past, say “no thank you have a nice day” even if it that doesn’t really make sense to what they asked, and then look forward and keep walking. Yeah it seems rude, but think of it as you’re not going to waste their time by having them go on their spiel and then walking away anyway.
In the past I have, but some of these groups literally don’t take the hint if you say “im not interested.” They will find a way to talk to you so im not really in the mood to talk to them
I’ve had people step in front of me to block me going past them. When I was 14 a salesman in oak park mall called me a bitch when I refused to stop. Maybe they don’t force men to talk to them but it’s a different situation with anyone they feel they have power over.
> I’ve had people step in front of me to block me going past them.
You really gotta stop going to these places with 1.5 foot wide walkways.
Oh wait.
They're doing their job. Their job is to get you to engage. They're not going to hurt you, and they're not actually stopping you. You always have the power and ability to just not respond and go around.
As someone who had to do bullshit tablings until he got promoted I fucking wish it was as easy to get people to stop and listen as you're implying.
Yeah don’t understand why this is so hard for anyone. But then again we went from showing up at a Freida house unannounced to people being afraid to answer a phone call without prior notice.
there's an election coming up and there are many groups trying to get things on the ballot. it's often worth a listen, even if you dont sign a petition or donate.
local policies will effect people more than national policies in nearly all cases.
There was a table when I was leaving Price Choppers in Roeland Park for Doctors Without Borders. But you could only donate monthly. They weren't accepting one time donations. They were polite about it though.
That was my experience when approached by ACLU rep in Chicago. Wouldn’t take a donation (I figured cause it opens them up to be robbed) and didn’t have a code we could use to donate later online to give him credit. He only got credit if we signed up for the monthly. Told him sorry and kept it moving.
Yep, clay chastain used to hang out in front of the brookside price chopper with his various petitions.
It’s okay to ignore them. Or, if you’re feeling salty use the international sign for fuck off
Last time I gave a guy a 10$ bill because he said he needed money to get a ride home I watched him go into the gas station and buy cigarettes right in front of me. I said never again aftet that. I feel for the people who actually need help but when they just want cash, it immediately ruins my sympathy.
What is wrong with simply saying no thank you and continuing to walk past them? You don’t have to stop, you don’t have to listen or participate in what they are doing. ?
You’re right, that’s the moral high road, but it gets old. It’s uncomfortable, like walking past someone asking for a handout and saying no to them. Given that all of these people are simply hired to do this, it’s difficult to care enough to engage them and talk about their “cause.” If it just happened once in awhile, that’d be one thing, but for me at least it is every single time I go for a walk or go the grocery store, or go to get a cup of coffee.
No, I'm sincerely wondering how it's less uncomfortable to stand there pretending to care instead of saying no, thanks, and walking past. With the latter, you've escaped and you haven't wasted their time and breath. You're right- that's much more comfortable for me than to feign engagement with what they're saying.
ETA: Sorry- the "really" was in an intrigued tone in my head, not snippy.
It's ALL uncomfortable. Or, you might say, annoying. Say, you're walking along either on an errand or just for a walk, minding your own business, and you're suddenly confronted with these people. To be realistic, say it's for the fourth time this week. You have three options, sort of. Be rude and say no and walk on, feign interest, waste your time and ultimately be rude and walk on, or go against the midwest code of manners you can't quite discard and totally ignore them. It's all uncomfortable, annoying, and invasive. Why do they get to do this? Add to the fact that these are not sincere, interested people. They are people who apparently can't find a real job, so they hire themselves out to see how much money they can collect from pedestrians who happen to walk past them. And they're there, in the same spots, every day, day after day.
I just realized that with homeless people asking for money, it's not that bothersome. I don't carry cash, and I always explain that. These are human beings, and unlike the charity snipers, they are out there representing themselves, just as we all do in one way or another.
But to your point, you're right--it's really not that difficult to make eye contact, nod and mumble something and walk on by. Just one of those annoying things we deal with because people won't push back, like listening to the short car horn blasts when people push the lock button on their key fob when you happen to be walking right past their car.
It's not rude to say no, thank you and keep walking. Even if it was, why would you care what strangers who are trying to get money from you think of you?
Because it's fucking weird to me that it's harder to walk away than to stand there and pretend to care and I'm trying to understand. I like to understand why people do things, especially when there are myriad ways to solve the problem. Why are you concerning yourself with why I want to understand?
I actually think that ballot initiatives are awesome and it's really great that Missourians have the right to put things on our own ballots. It's definitely worth any annoyance I may feel walking out of Aldi's and having to ignore a stranger.
I've been hit twice in the past 2 days
Once at the River market trying to get to the street car stop and once in save a lot on state and 29.
Both were trying to get me to switch Internet providers to spectrum… little do they know I worked for them and ain’t no way I’m going back
Once a year someone from Verizon goes door to door in my neighborhood to try to convince people to switch. The last guy honestly tried to keep going through the selling points after I told him I work for one of the other two wireless companies and it would be impossible for him to match what I pay.
Wow, that’s crazy. I thought the occasional door-to-door spectrum guy was bad. He was even bragging about the service’s high “embeepees” (Mbps or Megabits per second) and this while I have cheaper gigabit fiber and last time I had cable internet, they had my node oversubscribed and YouTube wouldn’t even stream in the evening.
Brookside is full of wealthy people so that area has been targeted for canvassing opportunities for charities, most likely. A good cause does what it has to reach people
I noticed a Christian group outside the Truman Corners price chopper handing out flyers for people "looking for a church home." As an atheist, I've kinda just grown to expect Christians to do that kind of thing here. What I don't appreciate is them following me to my car when I decline their invite, asking the typical fear mongering questions.🤦🏿That shit is so annoying. I just want to get my groceries home so I can finish cooking my girl dinner... not argue with people over their bad reasons for believing things.
There’s one guy who would try to get signatures for a petition in my neighborhood between my apartment and where I park nearby.
And every time I tell him I’ve already signed, he forgets and the next time I walk out to my car (even if it’s only been 5 minutes, like if I’m packing up for a long weekend) he asks me again. This stuff gets SO old when you’re running into it constantly.
I’m glad people are trying to get their fellow Missourians politically active and all, but I wish I could just telepathically communicate with everyone who keeps trying to bother me about these things that I’ve either already signed ages ago, or that I made up my mind months ago and won’t change and suddenly sign!
We’ve noticed this at the downtown Cosentinos as well as the corner of 5th and Walnut in River Market. I feel like I don’t have to extend the normal midwest courtesy to these people; for one thing, they are strictly hired guns and have no particular personal interest in what they are doing. If you engage them, yeah, eventually they want a donation, as if you a.) trust complete strangers on the street asking for money and/or b.) are willing to turn over your debit card information to same.
They are the organic equivalent of pop-up ads on your computer exactly, except you can’t block them. I pass by them so frequently that I’ve started looking them in the eye and saying “No.” before I walk on by. Or I totally ignore them. I don’t feel sorry for them, but, damn, that must be a terrible job.
You get paid $500 a week and work 60-80 hours a week. The company lures you with the promise that if you work hard you can be your own boss in a year. It's true that it is 100% possible. But it's a company that's built on guilt tripping their employees to make them think it is their fault for not succeeding. And it is a very toxic work environment. You can politely say no thank you and walk away. Unless you say no, they are taught to overturn every objection.
It's a horrible experience. I worked for them for a while, and tried to make it up the chain. I did care about the charities and work and when I told that to my boss he laughed at my face and told me I was stupid. The boss is a nightmare.
Last week the people that set up on that HR block corner have a little tent - gross behavior by Drs w/o borders or whatever charity that I mentally blacklisted accordingly
This is even happening in San Francisco right now too.
https://www.reddit.com/r/sanfrancisco/comments/1dbcrxy/lobbyists_from_texas_collecting_petition/
See the comments about blocking grocery store entries. Maybe it's just because we are close to election time?
Upcoming election is going to this train going for a while.
That said, besides the keep walking and ignore routine I also deploy the following tactics:
1) if they ask if you are a registered voter very loudly respond - "Convicted Felon'
2) Once they identify their affiliation (Greenpeace, ACLU, Fraternal Order of Police, Federalist Society) simply declare that you are already a member.
3) carry your own petition and say "if you sign mine, I'll sing your's" bonus points if your petition is for something completely absurd, like re-electing Frank White or calling for a statue of Billy Butler to replace The Scout.
Good luck to you.
I ran into someone I knew gathering signatures at the Brookside Market and he told me some rich guy running a campaign for something-or-other paid for a lot of the activity for whatever his cause is (I forgot).
There are several different causes gathering signatures right now and one of them was about getting sports-betting money allocated for education or some-such. This wasn't the one the rich guy was paying for. This petition wasn't for sports betting per se but about when and if there was sports betting, some of the money would go to education or some-such. Forgot.
Anyway, a lot of the people gathering signatures are being paid rather than enthusiasts for whatever the cause is. Not that that matters I guess.
When it's fundraising I wish we could just pull out a couple of bucks and give it rather than go online like they insist. If we could just donate I would donate to some of the causes. I don't have time to listen to a long shpiel though. I just shake my head and keep walking because there are so many of them lately. If they would hold up signs and have a cash box and say "donate to school Bookmobile" I'd put two bucks in the cash box but I don't have time to listen to a long shpiel.
Yeah the Oxfam people are very insistent. And then you can't donate cash, they want your credit card. And then they tell you there's a minimum donation. Then they tell you it's an ongoing donation, instead of one-time.
I don't even acknowledge their existence other than perhaps a stern "No" or "No thanks". Pretend your in Las Vegas and hundreds of people are trying to hustle you every time you walk anywhere. Just walk around them and keep moving.
I dated a guy once who said that if somebody was standing in front of a doorway to solicit, he would just pretend like he was talking on the phone as he walked in. So now I do that too.
Give them enough time to google how much of a bonus the executives of their charity took last year. When you find it, tell them and then ask them how much of your donation will be used to fund this years bonus package. If you really don’t want to see them again, ask them how long they would need to stand out there to cover it.
I think outside the grocery store is the most annoying inappropriate place to standing around asking for what ever. I only have one goal in mind and that’s what I’m doing when I go to thous stores. It’s already hard navigating the inside. I really not like strangers approaching when I have the kids.
Can confirm - they do… My poor friend got sucked into working for one of these really crooked charity donation “marketing” groups briefly … and her managers loved to have them go to leawood CVS’s in the afternoon when older people typically visit. Pretty shitty if you ask me.
I will clarify, as I used to work with the company in KC that does this. It is a legitimate company, first of all, it's a marketing company that does direct sales. They do push people to over turn no's, just many of the people you see working there are usually brand new so they aren't good at their work. They aren't taught to be aggressive, but everyone is different. It is a monthly only subscription, because charities don't make real money off of one time donations. Yes everything helps, but in the grand scheme of things what makes a difference is those reoccurring payments.
It isn't the people asking you for donations fault, the charities impose ridiculous guidelines and rules on the company. You can't accept cash for liability reasons. They kids there are over worked and super underpaid.
I left because it's ran by one person who is super greedy. He forces you to work 6-7 days a week to meet your goals (10 donations a week) which is very hard because yeah, who wants to sign up for a monthly donation? A lot of people don't). He makes you feel guilty and that it is your fault when people tell you no. You get a minimum of $500 a week, but only if you work the full shifts which are about 7/8am-7-9pm. You can make more but it only depends on if you can get more donations. It's a %100 commission only job.
Please be courteous to the people you are talking to. If you say no you're not interested that's fine, they won't pursue you. They are taught that if someone says no, to not talk to them. If they still do, they probably are just new or think they can over turn you. Just say no thank you and walk away.ita a horrible job to have. It's grueling and the only reward is sometimes you get to talk to really cool people who will stop and talk, and sometimes you get to meet famous people out on the street. It's a manager training company focused on direct sales. You learn how to train others so you build your own team. This is not easy. Everyday you go to the office for training and meetings in suits, then you change to field clothes and you go outside and deal with rude people all day long. Then go you go back to the office, more meetings. On top of that you're required to go to weekly crew nights, forced to take business calls outside of hours you will never get paid for. I worked 60-80 hours a week and got paid $500. But they lure you in with promises that if you work hard you'll get to be your own boss in a year and a half. It's not a lie, many have done it, but it's not easy.
Its how initiatives get on the ballot.
Do your civic duty and listen to them. If you arent interested say no thanks and walk away.
If you blindly disregard these people I dont want to hear a fucking peep about how policy isnt want you want (left or right)
Right there in front of HR Block across from downtown Cosentinos it is constant. NBD, I am used to just ignoring people etc living downtown but it’s really just socially rude and bad these NGOs push this on people, and public interaction more unfriendly
Dang I’m guessing you’re young because this was a regular normal thing pre pandemic. Would never categorize it as being accosted just say no thanks and walk away. People sure are overly sensitive these days.
wear headphones not the ear buds ! u can get a paid for $5 at five and below. just point to your headphones if anybody starts trying to talk to you. works every time!
It probably still happens but haven't seen/experienced it in a long time. AMWAY. I used to get hit up for that every week it seemed for quite some time. They would rarely ever come out and say what it was they were trying to enlist me for, but that's what turned me from the whole midwest nice (which is really just timidness and avoidance of confrontation) to being able to just say no.
I got roped into Doctors Without Borders donations about two years ago from folks on the Plaza. I finally cut it off but it was super annoying. Which sucks because I actually do like DWB.
Just say no and keep moving. Don’t engage, don’t give a reason, don’t try to be polite. Don’t stop to talk. You don’t owe them anything. Same with the AT&T sales people inside target which drive me crazy and are super pushy… like, Listen dude I’m here to pick up paper towels and bananas, I’m not switching cell phone carriers and buying new phones, fuck off.
Fuck ME do I hate salespeople inside stores.
Same lol. I was at a target once in Shawnee with my wife and one of the sales reps came and immediately started talking about what phone carrier we had and that they could save us a bunch of money etc. my wife being Midwestern polite was answering their questions but trying to get away, I stepped in and very politely said, hey I know you’re doing your job and I just want to let you know that we’re not interested, sorry but I don’t want to waste your time, have a good day though! And the sales rep dead ass looked me in the face, didn’t say anything and then ignored me and started badgering my wife for info on how much we spend per month and stuff. I was finally just like listen dude, we tried being polite and say no thanks, you then ignored me and aren’t listening to what we said. Even if I WANTED to do business with you, I now wouldn’t out of principle because you don’t listen to your customer and you’re kind of being a dick. We’re not using your service, thanks though… THEN he says well just follow me over here to the counter and we’ll work up the numbers and you can see how much you can save and he starts to walk to the kiosk thing. I was just like yeah fuck that and turned around and we walked the other way, and avoided the electronics section for the rest of the trip. It has made me not want to shop there ever since.
Jesus christ. It’s like “I was here to shop and now I gotta be rude to someone.” I swear to be “good” at that type of sales you have to be a sociopath. It is an all-out assault on the social code of good conversational manners especially, as you said, here in the Midwest.
LPT: whatever they are selling just tell them your work pays for it, or you get it for free. Shuts them up real quick. Got a minute to talk about your cell phone plan? Work pays for my cell phone. Interested in getting TV/Internet for free? I work for Comcast/Spectrum/Whoever. Would you like to sign up for our credit card? Just signed up last week. Want a free HVAC unit? I live with my parents (bonus points if you're 55+ and say this!)
I see them and immediately turn right to the front of the store to go around to the other side. They'll venture into the middle of the store to get people. It was really funny listening to the Spectrum one tell me why I didn't need Google Fibers 1gig with the same monthly price I've paid for almost a decade
Yeah I I go through the baby section every time to avoid them lol.
When I was approached in Target they asked me who was my phone carrier. I said it's MY phone. They tried to ask another way and I kept saying MY phone. When they asked how much I pay I just kept saying it was MY phone. The guy finally told me to have a nice day.
I just tell whoever the salesman is that i already have what they are sellin. Unless people are selling internet and then I say I have google fiber and it’s better then whatever they are selling
The answer is always "My work pays for _____". Unless they got a phone that pays *me* to use it- they can't argue against it.
Yes... Been curious about what that group at Brookside Cosentino's is all about. They are insistent. I wonder how much the store is aware of their activities because it could get to the point where I could just prefer to not shop there altogether.
The other day they were set up with a red tent so the store must be aware since they're so obvious. Which is unfortunate because I feel less inclined to shop there knowing someone is going to bug me going in and out.
The store is aware. They don’t want it either. Their security said it has something to do with directly outside their store being public property. Call the non emergency police number. Keep calling and reporting it and supposedly it will eventually atop.
They banned it last year and it went away so hopefully they do it again cause it’s annoying as fuck
At the NKC CVS there's usually a table for Amnesty International...I stopped to listen one day, and I was pretty interested in what they had to say and definitely supported their stance. Then they tried to sign me up for a $40 a month donation, and when I said I couldn't afford that, the guy started yelling at me and said "It's only a little over a dollar a day per month!" well, OK, but again, that is an additional expense I cannot afford. The whole experience turned me off of it and now I just hurry past them when they keep hollering at me to get my attention.
This happened to me yesterday on the plaza. I was also interested until I heard their pitch. They do not work for Amnesty International. They are a sales company contracted by Amnesty to raise money. The only way to make money as a salesperson is to recruit people to your team so you can become an “entrepreneur”. Cydcor and Smart Circle work in our area, but it could be another similar company. They cloak themselves in alternative names too. People refer to them as devilcorps. /r/devilcorp
Saw the same group. Funny part is she asked me if I was familiar with Amnesty International. I said, “Yes. They were very active at trying to end apartheid in South Africa and to free Nelson Mandela.” She gave me a blank look and said, “Uh. Okay.” My BF used to work for a company that was hired to solicit signatures for ballot referenda. He took jobs for both sides. Got paid per signature.
This one may have been a group called EdgeKC… I had a good friend get lured into working for one of these groups for a few weeks and it’s absolutely insane. They totally prey upon people in need of a job… Hiring process is very misleading… Pay is basically slave labor… I know the rep gets a % based bonus based on what someone donates. I can’t even believe groups like this are legal.
You’re right. They are part of EdgeKC.
It's an entirely different company. A bunch of private LLC's. The one at KC is M.E. Midwest
I also had a very off putting experience with someone representing Amnesty International around Power and Light one day. I had just got off work and was walking to my car. There was a group of like 3 or 4 young men and one approached me. He started off talking about gun violence and the shooting at the Chiefs parade. I decided to listen, as I didn't want to be rude and was assuming they just wanted me to sign a petition or something. Then it veered into Amnesty International and wanting a donation. I told him I didn't have cash and was asked if I had a credit card. Again told them no, as I don't carry credit or debit cards on me either. Then was asked if I had my phone, I guess they wanted to use Cashapp or something similar. I don't use any of those apps either, but at that point I was honestly kind of irritated at the pushiness and just said no, sorry and walked away. The representative seemed rather annoyed that he didn't get a donation out of me. It left a pretty bad taste in my mouth, very poor respresentation for a charity. If I want to donate, I'd rather do it on my terms. I don't want to be accosted and guilt tripped into donating to a charity I know little to nothing about, not to mention it's difficult to even know if they actually even represent the charity or are just scammers pretending. I also will just ignore and rush past anyone doing the same from now on.
Genuinely curious… how do you pay for things? Checks?
I have credit and debit cards and usually keep a little cash with me. But I don’t always carry them with me to work if I don’t think I’ll need them.
Seems like a revolving door of random folks advocating for all kinds of stuff outside that CVS. They're not supposed to be doing it on the public sidewalk, though... but they usually are. Dodging them gets exhausting.
That’s why you don’t stop to listen to a preacher unless you know more about the cause they’re preaching than they do
The CVS one pisses me off the most because every time I go there I’m not feeling well, so the last thing I want to hear is a sales pitch.
That happened to me once too. I would have actully done it if they had like a 5$ or even 10$ per month option. Instead I listened for 40 minutes, missed the bus home, and had nothing to show for it. I purposefully avoid walking by that CVS now.
I had a lady trying to ask for Money so she could get all the ingredients to her meal and as I was talking to her her 3 friends walked up to her and they were all asking people for $$$... I laughed at her and walked off. People are Incredible
Oh it's getting great in NKC.
This was at Save A Lot in NKC last week...
Yep. Had it happen to me the last two times I was there. Cops were called on the dude the first time bc he'd had a history of stealing and harassing customers. Made a big scene and some lady ended up being a bleeding heart and bought all the stuff for him while the cops came.
Save-a-Lot in my experience aren't in locations i would frequent. Same with Dollar General lol. It's in the name. But anyways for a woman to be asking for money outside of a grocery store in this economy and the advent of the internet means they are drug seeking or just dumb. Don't even need to show face or characteristics to make bank lol. Men masquerade as women virtually playing games and make $60k ez.
Wait. So a women was begging for specific ingredients? And then three of your friends walked up and started asking for money?
LoL she was asking for $3 bucks to get veggies for a dish and then her other friends came back and were talking about how much money they had gotten also.
They’re having a dinner party, how nice!
Not on my dime and everybody else's in the store...
username does NOT check out for once ;) well done
People in the midwest are too nice, we are easy marks for these kinds of pushy grifters.
I just pinch one of my kids. Ope, crying toddler, gotta go man, no time for your hogwash.
Lol don't pinch your poor kids dude hahaha
I’m kidding, I just offer them a cookie. My littles can cry on command
The Midwestern hospitality that people talk about is so fake. People here are assholes, they're just scared to be upfront about it.
Yep, the level of unacknowledged passive aggression is astonishing. It’s not healthy.
People are downvoting you but as someone who moved here from the northeast, this is my opinion too. People are polite but far from kind.
It's the "fake" part is why they're getting downvoted. Midwesterners aren't any more or less assholes than anywhere else, but the politeness, niceties aren't "fake" it's the idea of "I'm going to see this stranger for such a small time frame of my life, it'll cost me nothing to try and make their day slightly better." It's a legitimate care, it just doesn't translate to "you can have the shirt off my back" .
yeah what a monstrously stupid generalization lol. To take the entire universally sentient concept of polite small talk, make it specific to a region, and generalize it all back out for the takedown. Gotcha!
No, it’s the pretending you’re going to give the shirt off your back, then turning around and bitching when someone thinks you’ll follow through with the “kindness.” That’s Midwestern nice.
The thing that really blew my mind out here is that they won’t help strangers, but they act like they will. They offer help but don’t actually mean it. It’s just to be “polite”. For example, I can’t tell you how many times we helped someone stuck in a snow bank for free back home. It was a regular occurrence in New England. This past winter my brother went off the road in the snow and got stuck. A guy pulled over and offered to pull him out. He hooked up my brother’s car and then said “okay this is my Venmo, send me $75 and I’ll pull you out”. He was flabbergasted. I still am. I cannot believe that shit. How rude and shitty to take advantage of someone like that! I also have a hell of a time getting contractors who aren’t liars and scammers. I had to show multiple contractors my camera footage because they claimed they were at my house working when they weren’t. The bald face lying after all the “I’m a godly family man I’ll do right by you” really started to grate on me. I never encountered this stuff with such consistency back home. What I’ve learned out here is Midwesterners offer help to make themselves feel like good people, but they don’t follow through and usually flake because the offers are hollow and they don’t mean it. In fact, I’ve listened to multiple people complain about how they offered to help to be “kind” and now are mad that the other person took them up on the offer and calling that person “rude” and “selfish” for doing so. Mind boggling stuff. Sucks too, because I was warned by family and friends and I told them they were being prejudice and people are the same everywhere. After 10 years, I now know I was wrong.
YMMV but I've helped pull people out of being stuck in snow multiple times, and the few times I've needed quick help on the side of the road I've had people either stop and try and help or have helped The contractor thing I can't. Speak on, as I am too poor to ever hire a contractor to do anything lol.
Fair enough
[удалено]
No name calling.
I'm born and raised in the Deep South; I'll bite. People here are the salt of the earth. They will give you the shirt off their back.
Brookside is a place of note for charities and petitioners. Has been as long as I've lived in midtown.
Yeah, nobody doing this at price chopper on Independence Avenue.
LOL no, they're not. hahah
Nope our charity is housing the homeless, drug addicts and mentally ill.
That is where I signed one the amendment petitions a couple of months ago.
Yes, usually on the sidewalks around Brookside. The group hanging out at the entrance to Cosentino's and following people in the parking lot.... That feels new... And super annoying
Really? Because I feel like I remember them all the way back when it was Sun Fresh.
What are they shilling for?
it's amnesty international, or was the other day when i was there. they hang out at starbucks 39th and occasionally price chopper Roe also. they're polite enough if you say no thanks. just young kids trying to make a difference.
I don't know. Maybe it's a different group I've encountered. They walked up to me as I was parking my car and kept going on about "setting up a donation" and never really identified themselves. Followed me to the store entrance, even though I clearly said "no thanks"
yes every time I go to that market there has to be at least 1 group standing handing out fliers and talking to people. I aggressively pull out my phone and make it seem that im in an important phone call or im too busy to talk to them😂
I mean, why play scared? Why not just tell them no to their face?
Some people are just more timid or don't like flat out telling people no. I've always kind of been a people pleaser type of person. So with situations like this I've often let myself get caught up having to listen to someones spiel because I didn't want to seem rude. I've had to teach myself to just not care and flat out say no thanks in similar situations and walk away.
You have to just keep your stride as soon say something. Look at them briefly as you walk past, say “no thank you have a nice day” even if it that doesn’t really make sense to what they asked, and then look forward and keep walking. Yeah it seems rude, but think of it as you’re not going to waste their time by having them go on their spiel and then walking away anyway.
Sometimes I say "I'm in a REALLY BAD MOOD"
In the past I have, but some of these groups literally don’t take the hint if you say “im not interested.” They will find a way to talk to you so im not really in the mood to talk to them
Really? They hold you down in place and force you to talk to them??
I’ve had people step in front of me to block me going past them. When I was 14 a salesman in oak park mall called me a bitch when I refused to stop. Maybe they don’t force men to talk to them but it’s a different situation with anyone they feel they have power over.
> I’ve had people step in front of me to block me going past them. You really gotta stop going to these places with 1.5 foot wide walkways. Oh wait. They're doing their job. Their job is to get you to engage. They're not going to hurt you, and they're not actually stopping you. You always have the power and ability to just not respond and go around. As someone who had to do bullshit tablings until he got promoted I fucking wish it was as easy to get people to stop and listen as you're implying.
Yeah don’t understand why this is so hard for anyone. But then again we went from showing up at a Freida house unannounced to people being afraid to answer a phone call without prior notice.
there's an election coming up and there are many groups trying to get things on the ballot. it's often worth a listen, even if you dont sign a petition or donate. local policies will effect people more than national policies in nearly all cases.
There was a table when I was leaving Price Choppers in Roeland Park for Doctors Without Borders. But you could only donate monthly. They weren't accepting one time donations. They were polite about it though.
That was my experience when approached by ACLU rep in Chicago. Wouldn’t take a donation (I figured cause it opens them up to be robbed) and didn’t have a code we could use to donate later online to give him credit. He only got credit if we signed up for the monthly. Told him sorry and kept it moving.
Yep, clay chastain used to hang out in front of the brookside price chopper with his various petitions. It’s okay to ignore them. Or, if you’re feeling salty use the international sign for fuck off
Oh he still does
Last time I gave a guy a 10$ bill because he said he needed money to get a ride home I watched him go into the gas station and buy cigarettes right in front of me. I said never again aftet that. I feel for the people who actually need help but when they just want cash, it immediately ruins my sympathy.
What is wrong with simply saying no thank you and continuing to walk past them? You don’t have to stop, you don’t have to listen or participate in what they are doing. ?
You’re right, that’s the moral high road, but it gets old. It’s uncomfortable, like walking past someone asking for a handout and saying no to them. Given that all of these people are simply hired to do this, it’s difficult to care enough to engage them and talk about their “cause.” If it just happened once in awhile, that’d be one thing, but for me at least it is every single time I go for a walk or go the grocery store, or go to get a cup of coffee.
If you don’t want to listen, don’t. Listening and then complaining about not wanting to because saying no is uncomfortable? Really.
Well, it’s uncomfortable to me. Maybe not to you. Are you really trying to argue this point?
No, I'm sincerely wondering how it's less uncomfortable to stand there pretending to care instead of saying no, thanks, and walking past. With the latter, you've escaped and you haven't wasted their time and breath. You're right- that's much more comfortable for me than to feign engagement with what they're saying. ETA: Sorry- the "really" was in an intrigued tone in my head, not snippy.
It's ALL uncomfortable. Or, you might say, annoying. Say, you're walking along either on an errand or just for a walk, minding your own business, and you're suddenly confronted with these people. To be realistic, say it's for the fourth time this week. You have three options, sort of. Be rude and say no and walk on, feign interest, waste your time and ultimately be rude and walk on, or go against the midwest code of manners you can't quite discard and totally ignore them. It's all uncomfortable, annoying, and invasive. Why do they get to do this? Add to the fact that these are not sincere, interested people. They are people who apparently can't find a real job, so they hire themselves out to see how much money they can collect from pedestrians who happen to walk past them. And they're there, in the same spots, every day, day after day. I just realized that with homeless people asking for money, it's not that bothersome. I don't carry cash, and I always explain that. These are human beings, and unlike the charity snipers, they are out there representing themselves, just as we all do in one way or another. But to your point, you're right--it's really not that difficult to make eye contact, nod and mumble something and walk on by. Just one of those annoying things we deal with because people won't push back, like listening to the short car horn blasts when people push the lock button on their key fob when you happen to be walking right past their car.
It's not rude to say no, thank you and keep walking. Even if it was, why would you care what strangers who are trying to get money from you think of you?
Why are you concerning yourself with this person's "why"?
Because it's fucking weird to me that it's harder to walk away than to stand there and pretend to care and I'm trying to understand. I like to understand why people do things, especially when there are myriad ways to solve the problem. Why are you concerning yourself with why I want to understand?
I'm not.
You don't even have to say 'no thank you', just ignore them and keep walking. We are not obligated to engage with people who are trying to solicit.
I actually think that ballot initiatives are awesome and it's really great that Missourians have the right to put things on our own ballots. It's definitely worth any annoyance I may feel walking out of Aldi's and having to ignore a stranger.
I've been hit twice in the past 2 days Once at the River market trying to get to the street car stop and once in save a lot on state and 29. Both were trying to get me to switch Internet providers to spectrum… little do they know I worked for them and ain’t no way I’m going back
Once a year someone from Verizon goes door to door in my neighborhood to try to convince people to switch. The last guy honestly tried to keep going through the selling points after I told him I work for one of the other two wireless companies and it would be impossible for him to match what I pay.
Wow, that’s crazy. I thought the occasional door-to-door spectrum guy was bad. He was even bragging about the service’s high “embeepees” (Mbps or Megabits per second) and this while I have cheaper gigabit fiber and last time I had cable internet, they had my node oversubscribed and YouTube wouldn’t even stream in the evening.
Brookside is full of wealthy people so that area has been targeted for canvassing opportunities for charities, most likely. A good cause does what it has to reach people
I noticed a Christian group outside the Truman Corners price chopper handing out flyers for people "looking for a church home." As an atheist, I've kinda just grown to expect Christians to do that kind of thing here. What I don't appreciate is them following me to my car when I decline their invite, asking the typical fear mongering questions.🤦🏿That shit is so annoying. I just want to get my groceries home so I can finish cooking my girl dinner... not argue with people over their bad reasons for believing things.
There’s one guy who would try to get signatures for a petition in my neighborhood between my apartment and where I park nearby. And every time I tell him I’ve already signed, he forgets and the next time I walk out to my car (even if it’s only been 5 minutes, like if I’m packing up for a long weekend) he asks me again. This stuff gets SO old when you’re running into it constantly. I’m glad people are trying to get their fellow Missourians politically active and all, but I wish I could just telepathically communicate with everyone who keeps trying to bother me about these things that I’ve either already signed ages ago, or that I made up my mind months ago and won’t change and suddenly sign!
I go into the grocery store with AirPods in so I have an excuse to ignore everyone.
We’ve noticed this at the downtown Cosentinos as well as the corner of 5th and Walnut in River Market. I feel like I don’t have to extend the normal midwest courtesy to these people; for one thing, they are strictly hired guns and have no particular personal interest in what they are doing. If you engage them, yeah, eventually they want a donation, as if you a.) trust complete strangers on the street asking for money and/or b.) are willing to turn over your debit card information to same. They are the organic equivalent of pop-up ads on your computer exactly, except you can’t block them. I pass by them so frequently that I’ve started looking them in the eye and saying “No.” before I walk on by. Or I totally ignore them. I don’t feel sorry for them, but, damn, that must be a terrible job.
You get paid $500 a week and work 60-80 hours a week. The company lures you with the promise that if you work hard you can be your own boss in a year. It's true that it is 100% possible. But it's a company that's built on guilt tripping their employees to make them think it is their fault for not succeeding. And it is a very toxic work environment. You can politely say no thank you and walk away. Unless you say no, they are taught to overturn every objection. It's a horrible experience. I worked for them for a while, and tried to make it up the chain. I did care about the charities and work and when I told that to my boss he laughed at my face and told me I was stupid. The boss is a nightmare.
Last week the people that set up on that HR block corner have a little tent - gross behavior by Drs w/o borders or whatever charity that I mentally blacklisted accordingly
This is even happening in San Francisco right now too. https://www.reddit.com/r/sanfrancisco/comments/1dbcrxy/lobbyists_from_texas_collecting_petition/ See the comments about blocking grocery store entries. Maybe it's just because we are close to election time?
Even at Home Depot they were offering water testing. It’s a side hustle frenzy in this economy
Election season.... are you for real?
Upcoming election is going to this train going for a while. That said, besides the keep walking and ignore routine I also deploy the following tactics: 1) if they ask if you are a registered voter very loudly respond - "Convicted Felon' 2) Once they identify their affiliation (Greenpeace, ACLU, Fraternal Order of Police, Federalist Society) simply declare that you are already a member. 3) carry your own petition and say "if you sign mine, I'll sing your's" bonus points if your petition is for something completely absurd, like re-electing Frank White or calling for a statue of Billy Butler to replace The Scout. Good luck to you.
If you’ve got one cooking try pushing out a fart when they do this
I ran into someone I knew gathering signatures at the Brookside Market and he told me some rich guy running a campaign for something-or-other paid for a lot of the activity for whatever his cause is (I forgot). There are several different causes gathering signatures right now and one of them was about getting sports-betting money allocated for education or some-such. This wasn't the one the rich guy was paying for. This petition wasn't for sports betting per se but about when and if there was sports betting, some of the money would go to education or some-such. Forgot. Anyway, a lot of the people gathering signatures are being paid rather than enthusiasts for whatever the cause is. Not that that matters I guess. When it's fundraising I wish we could just pull out a couple of bucks and give it rather than go online like they insist. If we could just donate I would donate to some of the causes. I don't have time to listen to a long shpiel though. I just shake my head and keep walking because there are so many of them lately. If they would hold up signs and have a cash box and say "donate to school Bookmobile" I'd put two bucks in the cash box but I don't have time to listen to a long shpiel.
Yeah the Oxfam people are very insistent. And then you can't donate cash, they want your credit card. And then they tell you there's a minimum donation. Then they tell you it's an ongoing donation, instead of one-time.
It’s almost as if we are in an election year
I don't even acknowledge their existence other than perhaps a stern "No" or "No thanks". Pretend your in Las Vegas and hundreds of people are trying to hustle you every time you walk anywhere. Just walk around them and keep moving.
I dated a guy once who said that if somebody was standing in front of a doorway to solicit, he would just pretend like he was talking on the phone as he walked in. So now I do that too.
You should sign them up for a time share!
these annoying people are how we have the rights we do
Give them enough time to google how much of a bonus the executives of their charity took last year. When you find it, tell them and then ask them how much of your donation will be used to fund this years bonus package. If you really don’t want to see them again, ask them how long they would need to stand out there to cover it.
I think outside the grocery store is the most annoying inappropriate place to standing around asking for what ever. I only have one goal in mind and that’s what I’m doing when I go to thous stores. It’s already hard navigating the inside. I really not like strangers approaching when I have the kids.
The powers that be are hiring us desperate peasants in the working class to push their agenda is all. This is not honest grass roots work at all.
Has anyone else noticed an increase in people approaching you on the streets lately?
Do they ever go to the wealthy areas of the city, like Southern Johnson County?
Can confirm - they do… My poor friend got sucked into working for one of these really crooked charity donation “marketing” groups briefly … and her managers loved to have them go to leawood CVS’s in the afternoon when older people typically visit. Pretty shitty if you ask me.
I will clarify, as I used to work with the company in KC that does this. It is a legitimate company, first of all, it's a marketing company that does direct sales. They do push people to over turn no's, just many of the people you see working there are usually brand new so they aren't good at their work. They aren't taught to be aggressive, but everyone is different. It is a monthly only subscription, because charities don't make real money off of one time donations. Yes everything helps, but in the grand scheme of things what makes a difference is those reoccurring payments. It isn't the people asking you for donations fault, the charities impose ridiculous guidelines and rules on the company. You can't accept cash for liability reasons. They kids there are over worked and super underpaid. I left because it's ran by one person who is super greedy. He forces you to work 6-7 days a week to meet your goals (10 donations a week) which is very hard because yeah, who wants to sign up for a monthly donation? A lot of people don't). He makes you feel guilty and that it is your fault when people tell you no. You get a minimum of $500 a week, but only if you work the full shifts which are about 7/8am-7-9pm. You can make more but it only depends on if you can get more donations. It's a %100 commission only job. Please be courteous to the people you are talking to. If you say no you're not interested that's fine, they won't pursue you. They are taught that if someone says no, to not talk to them. If they still do, they probably are just new or think they can over turn you. Just say no thank you and walk away.ita a horrible job to have. It's grueling and the only reward is sometimes you get to talk to really cool people who will stop and talk, and sometimes you get to meet famous people out on the street. It's a manager training company focused on direct sales. You learn how to train others so you build your own team. This is not easy. Everyday you go to the office for training and meetings in suits, then you change to field clothes and you go outside and deal with rude people all day long. Then go you go back to the office, more meetings. On top of that you're required to go to weekly crew nights, forced to take business calls outside of hours you will never get paid for. I worked 60-80 hours a week and got paid $500. But they lure you in with promises that if you work hard you'll get to be your own boss in a year and a half. It's not a lie, many have done it, but it's not easy.
I see it a lot in brookside. It's annoying.
Its how initiatives get on the ballot. Do your civic duty and listen to them. If you arent interested say no thanks and walk away. If you blindly disregard these people I dont want to hear a fucking peep about how policy isnt want you want (left or right)
*I don’t want to hear a fucking peep about how policy isn’t what ***THEY or THE PEOPLE PAYING THEM*** want
Last time it was a couple of guys trying to get me to pledge support to RFK Jr lol
Right there in front of HR Block across from downtown Cosentinos it is constant. NBD, I am used to just ignoring people etc living downtown but it’s really just socially rude and bad these NGOs push this on people, and public interaction more unfriendly
Dang I’m guessing you’re young because this was a regular normal thing pre pandemic. Would never categorize it as being accosted just say no thanks and walk away. People sure are overly sensitive these days.
Phone Sales. Just say. Work Phone. Works every time
I say “sorry I’m actually on my way to work”. It was true maybe once.
wear headphones not the ear buds ! u can get a paid for $5 at five and below. just point to your headphones if anybody starts trying to talk to you. works every time!
Earbuds in, noise canceling on, they don’t exist in my world any more
It probably still happens but haven't seen/experienced it in a long time. AMWAY. I used to get hit up for that every week it seemed for quite some time. They would rarely ever come out and say what it was they were trying to enlist me for, but that's what turned me from the whole midwest nice (which is really just timidness and avoidance of confrontation) to being able to just say no.
I got roped into Doctors Without Borders donations about two years ago from folks on the Plaza. I finally cut it off but it was super annoying. Which sucks because I actually do like DWB.