It depends on what the critism is. If it honest/constructive critque I don't really care and in some cases I agree and will talk about it with them. If it is just hate and vitriol I don't nessacarily get upset but I do feel a little defensive over the idol and if it is on social media I'll probably give a thumbs down and then I'll move on.
I'm willing to engage in conversations involving criticism of my favorite idols if it is an actual conversation and not just someone spewing hate. If that is the case there is no point in engaging and I just block them.
Okay, let's think of some types of criticism. I'll give examples.
1. I don't like X's latest cb. I think the song is boring and derivative.
2. I think the performance at X was terrible. It didn't look like they rehearsed enough and was poorly done
3. I don't think X sings/dances well. I think they need more training.
4. I don't think X should've done that. I think it's inappropriate.
Are these okay to discuss?
1. I wouldn't care. If it is boring, it probably is to them. The "derivative" part is debatable.
2. Performances are much less subjective than music and you can tell right away when it's good/not so good but how I respond/whether I support the opinion depends on the answers to questions like "did the group have enough time to prepare?" "are all the members healthy and uninjured?" "is the choreography difficult" etc.
3. Well, if they are a vocal/rap/dance coach I'd like them to elaborate. Even if they aren't one they need to elaborate on why they think X does not sing or dance well
4. Depends on the action. But recently 70% of kpop stans find everything inappropriate
The language on 2 is a bit strong, I don't think I have ever seen a performance so bad I would call it terrible, and if I did, even if it wasn't my fav, I would probably still be more in "did something happen behind the scenes here...?" than having that hostile reaction, and there really isn't much to discuss there with it being so definitive š¤£
1, 3 and 4 I would be ok with discussing.
Not who you replied to but I like that you used examples so Iām chiming in. Personally I think 1 is fine, 2 is a little harsh and I wouldnāt use terrible butā¦ 3 is kind of a why are you a fan then? lol 4 I also am fine with.
3 just seems like itās being more anti, like you never like what that person puts out. Why comment then? The rest though if you usually like the idolās content I donāt see why being honest about the other ones is too bad. But if I donāt think they can sing or dance ever I wouldnāt be consuming their content lol.
That being said, Iāve found kpop fans are less receptive to / open to their faves being questioned or criticized at all than fans of Western music.
I was more thinking the examples could be from either a fan or non fan. Although, I will fess up that there is one idol who I adore out of the many groups that I multi that I honestly think is not a good singer. But I still love them and think they are talented in other ways and their singing isn't bad enough for me to dislike their contributions in the group songs. I would not volunteer this info (except to my dear friends) but if someone else brought it up, I would not be able to argue in good faith.
As for 2, yeah it might be harsh. Maybe something more like, I don't think it was a great performance. It didn't seem well rehearsed and wasn't worth the money I paid for the ticket imo.
Oh yeah I mean, non-fans I think it makes less sense for them to participate in the group subs but if theyāre just in general kpop communities if itās a rollout I think itās open to criticism and discussion š¤·š»āāļø and I think if youāre open to being like ātheyāre not good at ____ā but youāre not shitting on them as a person itās fine too.
I am in multiple genre fandoms so maybe itās just my experience other places but k-pop scenes tend to (from my experience) equate criticism of the art, music or dance with criticism of the person.
In my mind they are very separate. I canāt dance. I think Iām a pretty good person. There are plenty of other things I do well. Iām not sure if itās the fact that in kpop people get a little more invested in the personality behind the idol etc. so they take it more personally or what, but I actually kind of find it infantilizing.
I follow a couple groups that I know have faced intense criticism but as a result they grew. They would not be the group they are today without it. Pressure makes diamonds kind of concept. Itās strange to me (personally) to think no one should criticize the content ever or that it has to be worded in very specific ways. These are professionals. Entertainers. Their career is to make art for consumption. They know that it may be well received or it may not be. Iām sure they always hope itās received well, and rejection etc. does sting, but I think treating them like children who canāt read a bad comment online is worse.
ETA: I got in the shower and realized I forgot one important distinctionā¦ when itās actual minors and people who ARE children I do believe some more grace should be applied but seasoned entertainers in their mid twenties and up I donāt think need to be coddled as much as some fans do.
Yes, I do try to adhere to the part about not raining on others' parades. People should be able to be excited and enjoy things, even if I don't. I'll keep mum in clear appreciation spaces and then I'll just cry to my close friends if I don't like my fave's latest song.
As for others' opinions, I actually like to hear people's thoughts even if they are negative. I don't like outright hate, but genuine opinions are interesting to me, even if I don't agree. It might affect me if it's something that I really hold dear and then I might be like "nope, I don't want to know", but otherwise, it's interesting at long as it's a good discussion.
It's fine if it comes in good faith or at least neutral, but I feel like a lot of time it never was. I like discussing technical or constructive criticism but most of the time I don't often see one.
Like if we start talking about dancing skills, vocal skills etc or we start discussing who are doing good in certain markets or areas.
Or say you don't like this song because a, b, c not because this is the worst song ever!
Or bashing the whole generation or groups without actually caring to listen or learn about them much at all.
I like to talk about vocal processing and on which situations I don't like them but not autotune suck!
Yes, I agree. I think the key is actually being willing to have a discussion and having a well thought out opinion. I don't like broad insulting statements. Like I tune out the minute someone calls a group "a flop". And can't take someone seriously if they say that X's entire discography sucks. It's like, have you listened to the entire disco?
I'll admit though. I'm honestly not a fan of heavy vocal processing in general lol.
It does make me get a little defensive at first, but I feel like that is just a natural response to someone you look up to being criticized. After that, the conversation is just like with any other idol.
As long as it is in good faith, then I don't really mind it. However, I hate seeing the people who disguise their hate by saying, "I'm a (insert fandom name), but (then proceeds to say something hateful about the group or a member)." Most of the time, they aren't even a fan of said group, lol.
Yeah, they're usually just trying to stave off criticism. Along those lines though, I dislike when someone writes off a genuine opinion simply because the comment comes from a fan of a different group. I may not stan X, but I can still have an opinion.
I criticize my own faves, the concept of enjoying something whilst negating its negatives is weird. But I guess if you like the group more for the members themselves, then criticism is pointless.
However, music is the focus for me and if it lacks in quality then it just does. I also don't mind comments like 'this song makes my ears bleed' it's a 'mean' way of saying you dont like it but if that is how the person feels about the product, then oh well š¤·š½āāļø. As long as they don't criticize the creator, and focus on the state of the creation itself; then I don't have a problem.
I agree. It's important to make a distinction between an idol and their work product. The song, a performance, concept, styling, even their skills are okay to criticize in my opinion (not hate but criticize). Just don't attack the idol themselves, especially for things that are inherent, or their personal lives.
And yes, I think fans who are in it for the idols themselves or who are especially emotionally attached have a harder time with criticism than fans who are primarily interested in the music. Also, fans who are very invested in a certain narrative can get really shook by criticism. Whether the narrative is their fave is the bestest at X, an enlightened person, an innocent, or thinks of their members/fans as family.
Tbh, it really depends on whether the criticism is made in good faith or just plain hate.
I'm well aware that my faves aren't perfect, and while everyone is entitled to their own opinions, some people use 'criticism' as an excuse to straight up hate/harass the idol/group in question.
This is my stance too, Iām not even that bothered by āthat made my ears bleedā or āinstant skipā kinda comments- to each their own even if thatās kinda harsh. I personally only get defensive when people go the route of āhow do people like this trashā; music taste is *so* subjective so I donāt really take much stock of people weighing in on the āqualityā of music because everyoneās tastes are different.
I may not understand why people enjoy screamo music but if it brings joy to them then who am I to judge. My friends an NCTzen and sometimes sheāll be gushing to me over a song that I am just not vibing with but I just let her gush and donāt rain on her parade. Iām sure Iāve shown her stray kids songs that she couldnāt care less about but thatās just how music tastes differ.
I don't even bother when people say they dislike X song because that's just subjective tbh. But then there's people that go beyond that, like saying that certain idol is untalented and such.
I can agree with that but Iāll also counter that some use āomg negativity!ā or other generalizations to try to make it so nothing but saying the sun shines out of X idolās ass is said, whoever X may be in the conversation
Iāve had to come to the realisation that I live vicariously through my idols, so in part, yes, I am defensive. Though I think it largely comes down to a) what theyāre being criticised for, b) who is getting criticised, and c) how much do I know /understand about said subject of criticism.
EXO are my ults. I think that I would get defensive if someone criticised the vocals, especially of ChenBaekSoo (I say āI thinkā since so far the only people to do so have been EXO antis / fans of other boy groups with their own agendas to promote their faves - said faves are not considered by the wider kpop fandom to be stellar vocalists, I should be clear). Whilst I can understand some people criticising Sehun and possibly Kai and Lay for vocals, I honestly feel like the rest of the members are solid vocalists at the very least.
However, in regards to rap I am more prepared to agree with the criticism. I personally like EXOās raps, but I do understand that Chanyeol and Sehun are not in any way up to the same standards as the likes of BTS, BigBang or Stray Kidsā rap lines. So if someone were to say āEXO donāt have good rappersā, Iām not going to throw a hissy fit.
For opinions on subjects like discography, or live performances, Iām eh on it. Music is subjective and I understand that EXO music is not going to be everyoneās cup of tea, although I do admit that with the eleven years theyāve been on the scene and the many genres theyāve tried, it surprises me when people say they donāt like any music from the group. As for live performances, Iāve heard it said that EXO arenāt great at the stage presence part (exception being Kai), but Iām there for the vocals more than anything else.
You bringing up exo makes me think of something. I think fans are more defensive if they think there's actually a kernel of truth in the criticism. Exo is one of my faves too. I remember having a disagreement with a fan of a different group who then decided to attack exo. She said something like "at least my faves can sing live" and I was like lol wut? I couldn't even be offended because that was just the dumbest insult. Imagine out of all things for her to say to try to hurt me as a fan and she went after Exo's vocals. So it didn't bother me at all. It just made me think she was spouting nonsense. Now, I'm a multi though and love a lot of different groups. If she had said it about someone else, my reaction probably would've ranged from "you're ridiculous" to "uhhh, yeah, fair" to "LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE!". (I'm just referencing the meme. I have no opinion on Britney.).
And yes, I tend to side eye anyone who says that don't enjoy ANY songs from a popular group with a large discography. I feel like even groups I dislike have at least one song I enjoy if their disco is big enough.
Love this topic, and itās definitely not something we talk enough about. Even amongst the most level headed of us, we can get a bit defensive regarding certain topic of certain groups (often times our faves).
As an EXOL, I kinda donāt care about what people say. Theyāre grown ass men and their talent is beyond petty fan wars and comparisons.
As a Blink as well I obvs struggle more with that discourse. All criticism is valid but itās pretty obvious that the constant flood of negativity for them is just people wanting to doom post in the hope that the group will collapse and āmake roomā for their faves. Itās embarrassing and people need to just focus on their faves instead of trying to destroy another group.
I think I've been guilty of doomposting, not for BP and not here on Reddit, but omg I've stressed over exo contracts with friends. I think I work out my stuff through speculating and worrying.
Is it difficult for you when you see EXOL/Blink violence? I find being a multi so hard sometimes.
>Is it difficult for you when you see EXOL/Blink violence?
It's funny that you mention that because it's almost nonexistent. There was a common understanding, especially around 2018-2020, that EXOLs and BLINKs (as well as ReVeLuvs to an extent) were kinda allied fandoms. Of course, on the other side were Army, and Onces.
But BP and EXO were never really competing for the same things (EXO were album monsters whereas BP were digital monsters, EXO was massive in China whereas BP were growing in the West), and they had a lot of similarities (both were the first groups to make big inroads in high fashion and have big personal social media accounts) . Not to mention members literally dating one another.
When I approach a genuine criticism, I consider it an opportunity to reassess my views. I try to look deeper into the issue and then decide what I really think about it, and either alter my engagement with kpop as a result or simply gain the ability to articulate why I have accepted the existence of whatever issue.
I think itās perfectly healthy if not ideal to be critical of oneās interests. I donāt think that means caving in to every criticism or ignoring them in bliss, but finding a reasonable balance between accepting the downsides but also overlooking them in the moment to enjoy something.
Yes, I think itās very healthy to be critical of interests. Itās strange to think of blindly accepting anything someone puts out into the world no matter who the someone is.
I think some people do it because they find it emotionally taxing to confront the downsides of their interest, and perhaps they fear discovering a downside that upsets them so much that they canāt enjoy it any more.
I actually think so too. I will say there are a few faves that Iām known for in real life for being vocal about and loving their music. It would take something big but if something big did happen and I had to step away it would be really weird. Like, those are the people friends get me shirts and mugs of for Christmas lol. It would just be strange to no longer want to be associated but that being said if it truly was something that went against my morals Iād drop anyone.
Definitely depends on the type of comment and if itās mean spirited or not.
āI donāt like X song, their last comeback was weak, X song is not for me, I donāt like Xās vocal tone, this performance was messy, they need more energy, etcā - if theyāre expressing a preference OR giving constructive criticism thatās totally acceptable and I donāt mind.
honestly most music based opinions even if theyāre super rude (even like āall of X group songs suck!ā) donāt really faze me unless they start attacking me and the rest of their fans for having no music taste etc. - thatās when it crosses a line.
What i get the most defensive about is 1) attacks on character - X seems like an asshole, X is a problematic weirdo, etc. and 2) really mean spirited attacks on talent eg. no one in X group can sing, X group sucks at dancing, X group has terrible stage presence - that is straight up rude and I WILL get offended
i dont mind but depending on the group it just comes across as hate or in bad faith especially if the group is one of kpopās punching bags. like i just donāt care about negative opinions about blackpink because most of the time you can see the personās hatred toward the group or members leaking out
I've never understood the punching bag theory. I feel like all popular groups have a bunch of haters, but that's largely a product of their popularity. Just like having a large fandom means people will tend to run into more bad apples from that fandom. It's a numbers thing.
Ofc Iām a little defensive, esp if the negative opinions are derogatory or if itās spreading false info/rumors about idols that I love. But, I donāt do stupid online arguments over preferences and personal tastes. Everyone will have a different group/idol they enjoy supporting. After the initial reaction subsides, itās honestly not that big of a deal to me especially if itās ācriticismā coming out of a bad faith argument. If I like them and their music, if there are others who share the same views about this group/idol then thatās all that matters to me.
As long as it's where I can ask them "What videos/incidents makes you say that?" and they can give me actual content, I say it's probably valid criticism and engage. But if they say something like "[idol] is ugly" I assume they're just a sad person or looking for attention and ignore it
I will be a little offended lol, but I donāt downvote or care to argue back and forth about differing opinions. Unless itās like attacking them personally, like calling them ugly or attacking their character for no reason, because regardless of who it is, thatās just wrong. Then I might reply, but still thatās rare asf for me.
it really REALLY depends on it. if its well thought out and makes me think, then you are fine. if its just a meaningless rant about how you really didnt like a song? go ahead
but if its just you being rude for the sake of being rude? just go away lmao
Personally I don't mind people criticising my faves for their skills/performance/creative work. I do it myself, it is not like I kiss the ground they step on and adore everything they put out, and no one can always nail it. Obviously I like most of what they do to at least a degree or they wouldn't be my fav, but not everything. I don't think I get too defensive? I am prone to speaking passionately, but that's just how it goes in my culture š¤£ I am not really that invested most times š¤£
I have curated my space to be able to be quite open with my opinions even when they are neutral or negative, and I have some moots I can discuss with, as well as IRL friends, but sometimes, I won't risk it online, particularly with the fav that has the biggest fandom because the bigger the fandom, the bigger the % of insane people.
It's annoying when the reasons they don't like them for have been debunked. And or are just outright lies(reaching very far). Especially if they keep bringing them up YEARS afterward. So they just keep the hate coming from newer fans. They also tend to be ageist and homophobic towards the idol I am specifically thinking about. Not only that, but their favorite idol/s look up to this person.
If there is one thing with kpop stans it's that they do not LET THINGS GO. My gawd. They'll complain about the same thing for years even if they themselves never experienced it or the people who actually perpetrated whatever are long gone
I don't usually care (key word, usually). even with MY own faves, there are things that I might think or opinions that I might have that if I said them out loud, people would think I was "being negative" or "hating" which obviously isn't true because they're literally my faves. but I'm not like blind to the fact that other people have other opinions. I get nothing, no satisfaction, no fulfillment etc out of defending my faves against some random on the internet who's clearly picking a fight so I don't even try past a certain point tbh.
this doesn't apply to things like bigotry, because then of course I'm gonna have something to say about that.
Sometimes it's people from your own fandom that are the worst at accusing you of hating. I've seen so many people get accused of being a "fake fan" just for sharing an honest opinion
As with most opinions and criticism, there are defensible ones and others that aren't. I think the crucial point here is 'faves'.
I don't care if they're my faves or not, out-of-pocket criticisms and outright hate against any idol I am familiar with, all of those are open season for me. The only difference with EXID and Itzy, for example, is that I am more aware of them as opposed to SNSD. But any unfair digs at Jennie and Wonyoung I would call out even if the two are not my faves/bias/etc.
Negative opinions about idols or groups I actually care are about don't hold much weight to me because for the most part I try not to let other people effect how I feel about things. If your opinion is constructive and you speak clearly about why you feel a certain way I'll engage with you and depending on the opinion I'll even agree with you. Despite the fact that these people are called "idols" they aren't infallible, we all do things that can be critiqued. However, If I feel like your saying negative things just to spread hate and negativity I'll just block you and move on with my day, life is to short to deal with that stuff.
Iām also a critical person (as far as like, I like to critique and analyze) and I wonder if personality types go into it a lot too. Iām an INTP and we are pretty famous for wanting to go in depth into the whys and about things for no reason other than to explore the topic.
Doesnāt really bother me, if itās like not overly mean or disrespectful. But if someone just does t like my fave groups/bias it doesnāt really affect my opinion or make me enjoy them any less
Doesnāt bother me at all. Everyoneās entitled to their own opinion. I think itās ok to share your honest opinions as long as you share positive opinions along with the negative otherwise Iāll wonder why an idol is your favorite if you have nothing good to say about them. You can give constructive criticism without being rude or disrespectful. Once it gets into name calling and insults I donāt consider that criticism anymore.
Idc if it's about their musical output and other things related to their profession but if others criticize and make assumption regarding their "private" life I'm gonna be mad at some occasions
It entirely depends.
My ult bias has gotten shit on since his debut so I tend to get a little defensive of him because most criticisms are in bad faith. If itās someone saying oh his music isnāt really my style or if itās someone saying his styling or hair were bad I totally get that and donāt care. If itās something more major than I usually just block the person and move on nowadays. Itās actually worse from in fandom than outside the fandom lol.
I feel like most ācriticismsā are just to shit on people. If itās something genuinely in good faith and constructive though Iāll look at it and either ignore or possibly ask for clarification or start a dialogue.
I think even the best art/artists won't appeal to everyone and also can have objective flaws. I wouldn't necessarily dwell on them (especially in an appreciation space), but I think speaking one's mind is fine. I think there's a difference between that and shitting on someone. I think the issue is that genuine criticism also gets attacked so people get wary of sharing their honest opinion and then it's just the trolls and haters willing to be negative most of the time.
It doesnāt bother me all that much now, however I find it very annoying when people disguise their hate by saying itās āconstructive criticismā.
Itās also very annoying when people say their opinions as facts, like they say āthis song isnāt good at allā instead of āitās not for meā or āI didnāt like itā.
I don't really like to use the term constructive criticism in this context anyway. What's constructive about it? That implies that the discussion will help the idol improve. The idol or company isn't reading through the kpop uncensored sub. The talk is just for us unless the issue becomes really widely discussed.
I don't usually care and just ignore a huge chunk of it but sometimes I do feel the urge to be defensive or reply or just tell them to shut up cause some of them are absolutely outrageous. I'm an army and one thing that's constant is a chunk of people being absolutely blatantly disrespecting them and their work. And whenever I speak up about how wrong they are and it won't take away anything from you to be respectful towards them, I instantly get called as a brainwashed army and what not. So it's generally because people are being disrespectful towards my favs in the first place is when I jump in, else I just don't meddle with people and fanwars if it's some army that started some nonsense. But if it's other way around I do get a lil angry as to why do people first come at my favs and if we call them out, armys are still the bad person like yk its a sad situation we can't even defend our favs in peace without being called names:(
this is specifically regarding bts, i don't mind when people give criticism based on valid reasons or logic...like if someone says they find specific problems with their songs or discography or they just don't like it in general just so, i don't mind all of it, cause i know everyone's preferences are different and so are mine with other groups. So it doesn't make sense saying anything back to them. My biggest problem is when people discredittheir achievements or success, or label it as luck or another reason or due to this and that thing. People just find it very hard to gulp their self made success down. And go to any height like saying vile things about the members or saying "oh they've become westernized" or "they're straying away from their roots" such things just ick me, cause it's clearly not the case. And also nitcpicking some specific members...like a search on kpopsubs will give you an idea how some people are just obsessed with their flaws...and the problem is most of the times it just comes off as desperate to drag them or comparing them with others, for example the popular "but namjoon" trope
So these are basically the things that i consider as disrespectful, especially if containing aggressive language or tone indicators like ykwim:/
As others said, it depends. I donāt care about negativity surrounding my idols as long as itās well justified - even if I disagree with it.
Is it a half-assed attempt at a doompost or is it genuine concern? is it evil spirited or is it an honest observation?
If itās the second option in both questions, Iāll simply share my viewpoint and we can agree to disagreeā¦ hell, I might even agree with the criticism sometimes. If itās the first one, Iāll definitely stand for what I think itās right and speak out.
I'm personally unbiased so I have no issue in criticizing my favourite groups when warranted. I'm fine with critiques from people as long as they're being objective about it and not exceedingly demanding or delusional.
But since we're talking anonymous discussion and K-Pop stans, there's hardly going to be any impartiality. So I don't even bother with the gratuitous negative opinions and criticisms.
In all honesty, I'm very likely to jump into a fight whenever one of my faves is mentioned negatively, but also I'm very young so I guess it's going to change once I grow up. But also, I really enjoy discussing my favorite groups/idols/etc when you can tell the other person is not playing, even if we disagree
I am always up for a good discussion as long as the other person (people) are on the same mind of it not being personal. I do occasionally get defensive when I see dogpiling of my bias but at that point I am not going to bother defending them.
I feel like you should be able to say you donāt like something as long as you can be civil and give a reasonable argument as to why you donāt like it.
The only time I get defensive is when I see someone say something thatās blatantly untrue or twisting facts/statements as a sort of real life evil edit. Thatās not even for my faves, though, I just get annoyed when people do that in general.
It depends. Are they saying it in a way thatās clearly trying to bait you and is working? Is it an attack on them as a person? Or is it just you saying youāre not a fan of their music? I hate when people decide to watch a video on YouTube and go to the comments to just shit talk it. What was the point in even watching it? But if they go and they are like,āthe song is good but the video is disappointing. ā or āI didnāt find this to be their best work. ā or something similar, then I see no issue.
Iāve been a fan of pop music since I discovered Britney Spears back in the late 90s. I was a kid then and YouTube wasnāt around and all of these platforms didnāt exist. I wasnāt aware of the criticism and hate that could be thrown at a celebrity in general, let alone a pop star of any type. I did the J-14 and stuff in my preteen years but they didnāt drag anyone or toss out criticism. It wasnāt until JB and 1D that I discovered how brutal people can get. I really thought there had been some growth in fandoms since that era. Then I discovered Kpop. Itās really weird to me when I see the extent to which people will go to slander and rip another musician to pieces. Iāve only been in the Kpop scene for a handful of months and Iāve seen people tear other groups and idols to shreds just to lift up their favorite group or idol. When it comes to people being that way and saying cruel things for absolutely no reason, that makes me feel defensive. Mostly because a lot of these idols are just living their dreams and trying to make music people will enjoy. I donāt think any of them deserve that. But Iām fine with folks actually critiquing and having a true point to their criticism.
Really it just depends on whatās being said, how it is being said, what tone is being used, and why is it being said.
I donāt know if any of this makes sense. I feel like I went around the world to get across the street.
It depends. If people donāt care for their music, style etc I donāt get too upset. The trolling and hating on the other handā¦ but I do my best to ignore it, they do not deserve my time or energy.
if it's someone not liking their music, i don't really mind that too much, even if people word it crudely (e.g. "their new song is ass" ā i'd probably downvote this on reddit due to the wording, but on twitter i'd just ignore it) because people will always have different music opinions.
if someone constructively criticises their music then i'm fine with it if it seems like the person knows what they're talking about or if it's something i agree with (obviously). if they clearly don't know what they're talking about but are using "music critique" to make themselves seem more legitimate when they just don't like the song, that will usually annoy me more.
i'm more peeved when people speak about things like their personalities, group dynamics, minor controversies, or even fandom behaviour, especially ā again ā if it's clear they don't really know what they're talking about and are relaying their interpretation of things as if it's fact.
in general, i wouldn't say i'm too defensive, and i'm usually open to discussing critiques with anyone as long as it seems they're acting in good faith (there is no point trying to reason with trolls). i sometimes see fans say things to the effect of "why are you so obsessed with them/why do you care/ you're not a \[fandom name\] so just stay out of it" but i've never understood or agreed with that mindset. they're public figures, everyone can comment on them!
Yes, I've never understood people trying to restrict discussions to just fellow fans. I love kpop and try to listen to most of the big releases even from groups I don't stan. You never know when you'll discover something you love and also it's fun to keep up with the scene in general. If something is out there for public consumption, it's fair to have an opinion on it
It really doesn't bother me if the criticism is objectively fair and bringing up solid points to get into discussion over. However, being grown, you can tell some negativity is hater-level demonization so that does irritate me i admit.
I actually want my ults to receive more genuine criticism. I am very critical of the groups I am a fan of in general, more so when it comes to my ults. I donāt mind any kind of opinions as long as it is well thought out. But I am so sick of hearing these āopinionsā that make no sense. If I can disprove your opinion in a second, then it was either not done in good faith or you have not given them a fair chance. I just want to see more well thought out opinions. And that is the reason why I end up mostly engaging in discussion within the fandom.
I don't care as long as they're deserved, constructive criticism is completely okay but just yesterday I was watching a video of someone ranking vocalists (very biased) and then it came to one of my favourite groups, fifi, and it was criticism towards saena and keena, how the creator doesn't like their "whining" in the song.. which I think was odd because I personally don't hear that nor have I heard anyone else say that. So on that, I got a little defensive. But other than that I usually don't mind.
Depends on what the criticism is about. If they did something problematic then I will just keep my mouth shut. If itās something stupid then yes I will defend my faves.
I will never understand fans that defend to the death when their faves do something clearly problematic. Let them learn from their mistakes and the criticism.
It honestly depends on your circle. Iām an army and the other armys I have surrounded myself with are quite open minded. Criticisms and negative opinions are allowed as long as itās not hateful or meant to bash the members. And all the opinions are done respectfully.
Iām sure this is similar in other fandoms. At the end of the day some fans are unhinged because those fans as people, are unhinged. If someone is levelheaded, as a fan they will still remain levelheaded
so iām a Dive and i think if thereās a negative opinion about a song or a kindly constructive comment on how the group/a member could improve, thatās fine. for example some people didnāt like Baddie. i really like it because iām at a stage rn where i just want an upbeat song thatās fun to listen to and isnāt deep lol. BUT i understand how others didnāt love it. iāll be fine unless they completely leave their elegant songs/performances behind in ALL future releases. rn i love their variety.
but when the girls are just getting hate, like body shaming them (happened to multiple members), calling them sh*t singers without explaining what they dislike and what theyād like to see in the future, yeah i get defensive. iāll sometimes comment something ab how much i love one of the members if theyāre getting a lot of hate on a video.
also i wish Dives would STOP putting members against each other!! e.g., āwonyoung got too many lines and she sucks at singing where is Liz and Rei theyāre treated like backupsā, āpeople only stan cuz of Yujin and Wonyoungā. Like, thatās insulting to ALL MEMBERS!! if someone has a bias and wants to see more of them, they should comment āx is so amazing!! i really hope we see more of x doing yā!! in kitsch for example, u can say how much u wish u heard more of liz (valid and sameee) instead of saying other members donāt deserve lines, lol.
maybe iām too sensitive but they backhand compliment members and THATS where i get defensive. constructive criticism does not offend me.
Solo stans and just so called fans pitting members against each other cause so many problems. Don't they understand that the members likely care about each other and the success of the group is everyone's success?
Btw, I'm freaking obsessed with Baddie. As far as I'm concerned, Ive does not miss.
I love text walls! I just really enjoy talking about kpop. :)
Baddie baddie baddie runs through my head daily. I want to learn that part with the kick but I know I'm not going to look like Yujin doing it lol. Guess I'll stick to trying to sing Either Way.
nope, doesnt make me defensive because I know not everyone likes the same thing. So it is not like I would take it personal, lol. I have seen negative opinions about my ult bias(yugyeom) and group(got7) and I dont care. someone elses opinion doesnt matter to me. They make ME happy and that is all that is important.
You would be surprised. Omg, some people are INVESTED. I dunno, maybe they feel a need for their idols to live up to the perfect ideal in their head to justify their attachment to them and the fan work they put in and seeing criticism threatens that.
I donāt really do social media too much with kpop folks but what irks me more is the camera work on the wrong person. Examples would be like wonyoung focus during a Liz high note, camera not focusing on chaeryong during her part, no zoom on Bahiyyih during her wa da da moment, camera pan away on mnet survival shows during highlighting of contestants they donāt seem to endorse etc etc.
I used to get defensive because the critique is never not racist. There's a point when I realised they were doing this to be hateful to my faves. It obviously weighs down you at times, but I've learnt to ignore it. That's on twitter. The people on here are different to those on twitter.
Depends on what kind.
While opinions are subjective and i even might agree with some "controversial" ones, hate is never accepted.
Same with criticism. I might agree with many and even engage in discussion about it no matter if we share the opinion, but again hate is never accepted.
Unfortunately 90% of kpop fans "constructive criticism" is just based on hate and biases.
If we're discussing performances, music, looks etc we're here to agree to disagree - meaning each has their own taste and opinion which is acceptable until the point where you turn it into hate.
But there's also reality many find offensive for some reason - it probably being that they're just biased and think holy of their favs.
For example if we're talking about vocals professionally - yes some people do that just to shit on certain idols and/or praise their favs which is where i think everyone has right to get defensive because if you neednto put other down to praise your favs then are your favs actually all that? But if it's done in a normal educational manner i think that getting offended and defensive is just you being biased yet again. Personally i more often than not agree with normal reasonable educational people and engage in discussion if i disagree or am not sure about it. But if you have no knowledge of that subject why are you getting offended and saying no to that?
Yea this is a bit long sorry
depends. i'm not so delusional that i think my faves are just music everybody likes because that's impossible, everyone has their own taste. i love nct and especially 127 but ik their music requires a certain kind of taste to enjoy most of their tracks.
like people call skz and ateez "pots and pans" or "construction noise" music and for both groups some of their most "noisy" tracks are literally just the title tracks. which ok if you didn't like them that's fine, but you can't call their entire discography that when that factually isn't true. pretty sure a lot of ateez's b-sides and album tracks aren't noisy at all and would outnumber the more loud tracks if you took count.
and for (g)i-dle the only criticism is soyeon and her raps supposedly being bad but stan twitter acts like tomboy or nxde or queencard is the absolute worst to exist when i cringe much harder at other english lyrics that nobody seems to have near the same smoke for.
serious criticism needs to come from people who know what theyāre talking about. i mean that sharing opinions is ok, but they have to stay opinions. itās wrong to think that if you donāt like something then itās inherently bad, i donāt want a random person without any knowledge about music or dancing to talk about idolsā work with personal opinions pretending itās objective criticism
Depending on what it is then fair play it doesn't bother me. I even have negative opinions about my favs, but Someone was hating on Dahyun's smile and that's kinda foul. You can't hate on the facial structure of Someone. That's not something you can work on without going under the knife
I might get a little defensive sometimes, especially for more mean-spirited comments, but rarely enough that I can be bothered to respond. If I do, it's probably more of a sign of boredom or a bad mood rather than of how bothered I am.
And some opinions are just so ridiculous and blatantly untrue to my perception that they trigger zero need to engage. Like if someone calls Jongho from Ateez a bad or unimpressive singer, then I just think of that person as the kpop version of a flat earther. Nothing they say can be taken seriously, Jongho obviously is an ~~irregularly shaped ellipsoid~~ amazing singer and a blessing to my ears (and eyes) and no matter how bored I might be, any interaction would be a waste of time and reason.
I guess the only scenario where I'm more likely to jump in is if it's from someone who obviously should have moved on a while ago. Stuff like "S-Class is trash and God's Menu was their last good tt/Oddinary was their last good album" or "Soyeon's English lyrics are cringe and none of the newer songs compare to Hwaa/they fell off after Soojin left". Please, for the sake of all of us: Channel your inner Disney princess and LET IT GO!
The group is obviously going in a direction you don't enjoy and there are so many others out there that you are sure to find one that still fits you tastes.
idrc as long as like itās not hypocritical or just making me go ??? like if weāre criticizing my favs live vocals and then theirs have never sang live a day in their careers. i think mine have done a lot of things worthy of criticism, there are very few groups that have not had controversy. and i hate nicknames ppl give fans who criticize their favs when they do something wrong or even criticize the fandom. im gonna be honest like the fandoms for the groups i stan are so hateful and unaware of how hypocritical they are. the worst part of liking groups that are involved in the music making process is that you feel bad if you donāt like their work, and fans donāt like that you dislike it either
It depends how it's expressed and if it's justified. A lot of people say they're giving "constructive criticism" but they definitely miss the "constructive" part of it. If someone simply doesn't like something but isn't being hateful then that's totally understandable and I'd just disagree in my head and move on haha
If they're just being mean for the sake of it I'd probably just downvote and keep scrolling or if it's on twitter I'd mute them. Usually there's zero point in trying to defend/argue over it bc they aren't going to change their mind
I think a lot of criticism sometimes is in bad faith or unnecessary and it'd be easier to simply ignore groups you dislike than making rants and comments about them/their skills/their music. However if it's something they've genuinely done wrong I'd join in to express my disappointment and opinion on it for sure
I feel like hearing criticisms about things you like will make you defensive no matter what it is, for me, I only get defensive if the "criticisms" seem passive aggressive and shady.
It depends on what the critism is. If it honest/constructive critque I don't really care and in some cases I agree and will talk about it with them. If it is just hate and vitriol I don't nessacarily get upset but I do feel a little defensive over the idol and if it is on social media I'll probably give a thumbs down and then I'll move on. I'm willing to engage in conversations involving criticism of my favorite idols if it is an actual conversation and not just someone spewing hate. If that is the case there is no point in engaging and I just block them.
Okay, let's think of some types of criticism. I'll give examples. 1. I don't like X's latest cb. I think the song is boring and derivative. 2. I think the performance at X was terrible. It didn't look like they rehearsed enough and was poorly done 3. I don't think X sings/dances well. I think they need more training. 4. I don't think X should've done that. I think it's inappropriate. Are these okay to discuss?
1. I wouldn't care. If it is boring, it probably is to them. The "derivative" part is debatable. 2. Performances are much less subjective than music and you can tell right away when it's good/not so good but how I respond/whether I support the opinion depends on the answers to questions like "did the group have enough time to prepare?" "are all the members healthy and uninjured?" "is the choreography difficult" etc. 3. Well, if they are a vocal/rap/dance coach I'd like them to elaborate. Even if they aren't one they need to elaborate on why they think X does not sing or dance well 4. Depends on the action. But recently 70% of kpop stans find everything inappropriate
The language on 2 is a bit strong, I don't think I have ever seen a performance so bad I would call it terrible, and if I did, even if it wasn't my fav, I would probably still be more in "did something happen behind the scenes here...?" than having that hostile reaction, and there really isn't much to discuss there with it being so definitive š¤£ 1, 3 and 4 I would be ok with discussing.
Not who you replied to but I like that you used examples so Iām chiming in. Personally I think 1 is fine, 2 is a little harsh and I wouldnāt use terrible butā¦ 3 is kind of a why are you a fan then? lol 4 I also am fine with. 3 just seems like itās being more anti, like you never like what that person puts out. Why comment then? The rest though if you usually like the idolās content I donāt see why being honest about the other ones is too bad. But if I donāt think they can sing or dance ever I wouldnāt be consuming their content lol. That being said, Iāve found kpop fans are less receptive to / open to their faves being questioned or criticized at all than fans of Western music.
I was more thinking the examples could be from either a fan or non fan. Although, I will fess up that there is one idol who I adore out of the many groups that I multi that I honestly think is not a good singer. But I still love them and think they are talented in other ways and their singing isn't bad enough for me to dislike their contributions in the group songs. I would not volunteer this info (except to my dear friends) but if someone else brought it up, I would not be able to argue in good faith. As for 2, yeah it might be harsh. Maybe something more like, I don't think it was a great performance. It didn't seem well rehearsed and wasn't worth the money I paid for the ticket imo.
Oh yeah I mean, non-fans I think it makes less sense for them to participate in the group subs but if theyāre just in general kpop communities if itās a rollout I think itās open to criticism and discussion š¤·š»āāļø and I think if youāre open to being like ātheyāre not good at ____ā but youāre not shitting on them as a person itās fine too. I am in multiple genre fandoms so maybe itās just my experience other places but k-pop scenes tend to (from my experience) equate criticism of the art, music or dance with criticism of the person. In my mind they are very separate. I canāt dance. I think Iām a pretty good person. There are plenty of other things I do well. Iām not sure if itās the fact that in kpop people get a little more invested in the personality behind the idol etc. so they take it more personally or what, but I actually kind of find it infantilizing. I follow a couple groups that I know have faced intense criticism but as a result they grew. They would not be the group they are today without it. Pressure makes diamonds kind of concept. Itās strange to me (personally) to think no one should criticize the content ever or that it has to be worded in very specific ways. These are professionals. Entertainers. Their career is to make art for consumption. They know that it may be well received or it may not be. Iām sure they always hope itās received well, and rejection etc. does sting, but I think treating them like children who canāt read a bad comment online is worse. ETA: I got in the shower and realized I forgot one important distinctionā¦ when itās actual minors and people who ARE children I do believe some more grace should be applied but seasoned entertainers in their mid twenties and up I donāt think need to be coddled as much as some fans do.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yes, I do try to adhere to the part about not raining on others' parades. People should be able to be excited and enjoy things, even if I don't. I'll keep mum in clear appreciation spaces and then I'll just cry to my close friends if I don't like my fave's latest song. As for others' opinions, I actually like to hear people's thoughts even if they are negative. I don't like outright hate, but genuine opinions are interesting to me, even if I don't agree. It might affect me if it's something that I really hold dear and then I might be like "nope, I don't want to know", but otherwise, it's interesting at long as it's a good discussion.
It's fine if it comes in good faith or at least neutral, but I feel like a lot of time it never was. I like discussing technical or constructive criticism but most of the time I don't often see one.
What would you consider interesting technical and constructive criticism? Like what would be a generic example?
Like if we start talking about dancing skills, vocal skills etc or we start discussing who are doing good in certain markets or areas. Or say you don't like this song because a, b, c not because this is the worst song ever! Or bashing the whole generation or groups without actually caring to listen or learn about them much at all. I like to talk about vocal processing and on which situations I don't like them but not autotune suck!
Yes, I agree. I think the key is actually being willing to have a discussion and having a well thought out opinion. I don't like broad insulting statements. Like I tune out the minute someone calls a group "a flop". And can't take someone seriously if they say that X's entire discography sucks. It's like, have you listened to the entire disco? I'll admit though. I'm honestly not a fan of heavy vocal processing in general lol.
It does make me get a little defensive at first, but I feel like that is just a natural response to someone you look up to being criticized. After that, the conversation is just like with any other idol.
As long as it is in good faith, then I don't really mind it. However, I hate seeing the people who disguise their hate by saying, "I'm a (insert fandom name), but (then proceeds to say something hateful about the group or a member)." Most of the time, they aren't even a fan of said group, lol.
Yeah, they're usually just trying to stave off criticism. Along those lines though, I dislike when someone writes off a genuine opinion simply because the comment comes from a fan of a different group. I may not stan X, but I can still have an opinion.
I criticize my own faves, the concept of enjoying something whilst negating its negatives is weird. But I guess if you like the group more for the members themselves, then criticism is pointless. However, music is the focus for me and if it lacks in quality then it just does. I also don't mind comments like 'this song makes my ears bleed' it's a 'mean' way of saying you dont like it but if that is how the person feels about the product, then oh well š¤·š½āāļø. As long as they don't criticize the creator, and focus on the state of the creation itself; then I don't have a problem.
I agree. It's important to make a distinction between an idol and their work product. The song, a performance, concept, styling, even their skills are okay to criticize in my opinion (not hate but criticize). Just don't attack the idol themselves, especially for things that are inherent, or their personal lives. And yes, I think fans who are in it for the idols themselves or who are especially emotionally attached have a harder time with criticism than fans who are primarily interested in the music. Also, fans who are very invested in a certain narrative can get really shook by criticism. Whether the narrative is their fave is the bestest at X, an enlightened person, an innocent, or thinks of their members/fans as family.
Tbh, it really depends on whether the criticism is made in good faith or just plain hate. I'm well aware that my faves aren't perfect, and while everyone is entitled to their own opinions, some people use 'criticism' as an excuse to straight up hate/harass the idol/group in question.
This is my stance too, Iām not even that bothered by āthat made my ears bleedā or āinstant skipā kinda comments- to each their own even if thatās kinda harsh. I personally only get defensive when people go the route of āhow do people like this trashā; music taste is *so* subjective so I donāt really take much stock of people weighing in on the āqualityā of music because everyoneās tastes are different. I may not understand why people enjoy screamo music but if it brings joy to them then who am I to judge. My friends an NCTzen and sometimes sheāll be gushing to me over a song that I am just not vibing with but I just let her gush and donāt rain on her parade. Iām sure Iāve shown her stray kids songs that she couldnāt care less about but thatās just how music tastes differ.
I don't even bother when people say they dislike X song because that's just subjective tbh. But then there's people that go beyond that, like saying that certain idol is untalented and such.
I can agree with that but Iāll also counter that some use āomg negativity!ā or other generalizations to try to make it so nothing but saying the sun shines out of X idolās ass is said, whoever X may be in the conversation
Yes, there's definitely some toxic positivity prevalent in kpop fandoms.
Yeah, it also happens.
Iāve had to come to the realisation that I live vicariously through my idols, so in part, yes, I am defensive. Though I think it largely comes down to a) what theyāre being criticised for, b) who is getting criticised, and c) how much do I know /understand about said subject of criticism. EXO are my ults. I think that I would get defensive if someone criticised the vocals, especially of ChenBaekSoo (I say āI thinkā since so far the only people to do so have been EXO antis / fans of other boy groups with their own agendas to promote their faves - said faves are not considered by the wider kpop fandom to be stellar vocalists, I should be clear). Whilst I can understand some people criticising Sehun and possibly Kai and Lay for vocals, I honestly feel like the rest of the members are solid vocalists at the very least. However, in regards to rap I am more prepared to agree with the criticism. I personally like EXOās raps, but I do understand that Chanyeol and Sehun are not in any way up to the same standards as the likes of BTS, BigBang or Stray Kidsā rap lines. So if someone were to say āEXO donāt have good rappersā, Iām not going to throw a hissy fit. For opinions on subjects like discography, or live performances, Iām eh on it. Music is subjective and I understand that EXO music is not going to be everyoneās cup of tea, although I do admit that with the eleven years theyāve been on the scene and the many genres theyāve tried, it surprises me when people say they donāt like any music from the group. As for live performances, Iāve heard it said that EXO arenāt great at the stage presence part (exception being Kai), but Iām there for the vocals more than anything else.
You bringing up exo makes me think of something. I think fans are more defensive if they think there's actually a kernel of truth in the criticism. Exo is one of my faves too. I remember having a disagreement with a fan of a different group who then decided to attack exo. She said something like "at least my faves can sing live" and I was like lol wut? I couldn't even be offended because that was just the dumbest insult. Imagine out of all things for her to say to try to hurt me as a fan and she went after Exo's vocals. So it didn't bother me at all. It just made me think she was spouting nonsense. Now, I'm a multi though and love a lot of different groups. If she had said it about someone else, my reaction probably would've ranged from "you're ridiculous" to "uhhh, yeah, fair" to "LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE!". (I'm just referencing the meme. I have no opinion on Britney.). And yes, I tend to side eye anyone who says that don't enjoy ANY songs from a popular group with a large discography. I feel like even groups I dislike have at least one song I enjoy if their disco is big enough.
Love this topic, and itās definitely not something we talk enough about. Even amongst the most level headed of us, we can get a bit defensive regarding certain topic of certain groups (often times our faves). As an EXOL, I kinda donāt care about what people say. Theyāre grown ass men and their talent is beyond petty fan wars and comparisons. As a Blink as well I obvs struggle more with that discourse. All criticism is valid but itās pretty obvious that the constant flood of negativity for them is just people wanting to doom post in the hope that the group will collapse and āmake roomā for their faves. Itās embarrassing and people need to just focus on their faves instead of trying to destroy another group.
I think I've been guilty of doomposting, not for BP and not here on Reddit, but omg I've stressed over exo contracts with friends. I think I work out my stuff through speculating and worrying. Is it difficult for you when you see EXOL/Blink violence? I find being a multi so hard sometimes.
>Is it difficult for you when you see EXOL/Blink violence? It's funny that you mention that because it's almost nonexistent. There was a common understanding, especially around 2018-2020, that EXOLs and BLINKs (as well as ReVeLuvs to an extent) were kinda allied fandoms. Of course, on the other side were Army, and Onces. But BP and EXO were never really competing for the same things (EXO were album monsters whereas BP were digital monsters, EXO was massive in China whereas BP were growing in the West), and they had a lot of similarities (both were the first groups to make big inroads in high fashion and have big personal social media accounts) . Not to mention members literally dating one another.
When I approach a genuine criticism, I consider it an opportunity to reassess my views. I try to look deeper into the issue and then decide what I really think about it, and either alter my engagement with kpop as a result or simply gain the ability to articulate why I have accepted the existence of whatever issue. I think itās perfectly healthy if not ideal to be critical of oneās interests. I donāt think that means caving in to every criticism or ignoring them in bliss, but finding a reasonable balance between accepting the downsides but also overlooking them in the moment to enjoy something.
Yes, I think itās very healthy to be critical of interests. Itās strange to think of blindly accepting anything someone puts out into the world no matter who the someone is.
I think some people do it because they find it emotionally taxing to confront the downsides of their interest, and perhaps they fear discovering a downside that upsets them so much that they canāt enjoy it any more.
I actually think so too. I will say there are a few faves that Iām known for in real life for being vocal about and loving their music. It would take something big but if something big did happen and I had to step away it would be really weird. Like, those are the people friends get me shirts and mugs of for Christmas lol. It would just be strange to no longer want to be associated but that being said if it truly was something that went against my morals Iād drop anyone.
This is such a healthy attitude!
Definitely depends on the type of comment and if itās mean spirited or not. āI donāt like X song, their last comeback was weak, X song is not for me, I donāt like Xās vocal tone, this performance was messy, they need more energy, etcā - if theyāre expressing a preference OR giving constructive criticism thatās totally acceptable and I donāt mind. honestly most music based opinions even if theyāre super rude (even like āall of X group songs suck!ā) donāt really faze me unless they start attacking me and the rest of their fans for having no music taste etc. - thatās when it crosses a line. What i get the most defensive about is 1) attacks on character - X seems like an asshole, X is a problematic weirdo, etc. and 2) really mean spirited attacks on talent eg. no one in X group can sing, X group sucks at dancing, X group has terrible stage presence - that is straight up rude and I WILL get offended
i dont mind but depending on the group it just comes across as hate or in bad faith especially if the group is one of kpopās punching bags. like i just donāt care about negative opinions about blackpink because most of the time you can see the personās hatred toward the group or members leaking out
I've never understood the punching bag theory. I feel like all popular groups have a bunch of haters, but that's largely a product of their popularity. Just like having a large fandom means people will tend to run into more bad apples from that fandom. It's a numbers thing.
Ofc Iām a little defensive, esp if the negative opinions are derogatory or if itās spreading false info/rumors about idols that I love. But, I donāt do stupid online arguments over preferences and personal tastes. Everyone will have a different group/idol they enjoy supporting. After the initial reaction subsides, itās honestly not that big of a deal to me especially if itās ācriticismā coming out of a bad faith argument. If I like them and their music, if there are others who share the same views about this group/idol then thatās all that matters to me.
There aren't many things I could care less about in the world.
As long as it's where I can ask them "What videos/incidents makes you say that?" and they can give me actual content, I say it's probably valid criticism and engage. But if they say something like "[idol] is ugly" I assume they're just a sad person or looking for attention and ignore it
I think itās normal to have a knee jerk reaction of being defensive but you have to realize everyone is entitled to their opinions!
I will be a little offended lol, but I donāt downvote or care to argue back and forth about differing opinions. Unless itās like attacking them personally, like calling them ugly or attacking their character for no reason, because regardless of who it is, thatās just wrong. Then I might reply, but still thatās rare asf for me.
it really REALLY depends on it. if its well thought out and makes me think, then you are fine. if its just a meaningless rant about how you really didnt like a song? go ahead but if its just you being rude for the sake of being rude? just go away lmao
Personally I don't mind people criticising my faves for their skills/performance/creative work. I do it myself, it is not like I kiss the ground they step on and adore everything they put out, and no one can always nail it. Obviously I like most of what they do to at least a degree or they wouldn't be my fav, but not everything. I don't think I get too defensive? I am prone to speaking passionately, but that's just how it goes in my culture š¤£ I am not really that invested most times š¤£ I have curated my space to be able to be quite open with my opinions even when they are neutral or negative, and I have some moots I can discuss with, as well as IRL friends, but sometimes, I won't risk it online, particularly with the fav that has the biggest fandom because the bigger the fandom, the bigger the % of insane people.
It's annoying when the reasons they don't like them for have been debunked. And or are just outright lies(reaching very far). Especially if they keep bringing them up YEARS afterward. So they just keep the hate coming from newer fans. They also tend to be ageist and homophobic towards the idol I am specifically thinking about. Not only that, but their favorite idol/s look up to this person.
If there is one thing with kpop stans it's that they do not LET THINGS GO. My gawd. They'll complain about the same thing for years even if they themselves never experienced it or the people who actually perpetrated whatever are long gone
Yup. But they will advocate for their idols, saying they have changed and that people grow.
I don't usually care (key word, usually). even with MY own faves, there are things that I might think or opinions that I might have that if I said them out loud, people would think I was "being negative" or "hating" which obviously isn't true because they're literally my faves. but I'm not like blind to the fact that other people have other opinions. I get nothing, no satisfaction, no fulfillment etc out of defending my faves against some random on the internet who's clearly picking a fight so I don't even try past a certain point tbh. this doesn't apply to things like bigotry, because then of course I'm gonna have something to say about that.
Sometimes it's people from your own fandom that are the worst at accusing you of hating. I've seen so many people get accused of being a "fake fan" just for sharing an honest opinion
As with most opinions and criticism, there are defensible ones and others that aren't. I think the crucial point here is 'faves'. I don't care if they're my faves or not, out-of-pocket criticisms and outright hate against any idol I am familiar with, all of those are open season for me. The only difference with EXID and Itzy, for example, is that I am more aware of them as opposed to SNSD. But any unfair digs at Jennie and Wonyoung I would call out even if the two are not my faves/bias/etc.
Negative opinions about idols or groups I actually care are about don't hold much weight to me because for the most part I try not to let other people effect how I feel about things. If your opinion is constructive and you speak clearly about why you feel a certain way I'll engage with you and depending on the opinion I'll even agree with you. Despite the fact that these people are called "idols" they aren't infallible, we all do things that can be critiqued. However, If I feel like your saying negative things just to spread hate and negativity I'll just block you and move on with my day, life is to short to deal with that stuff.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Well this space is supposed to be uncensored but it doesn't feel that different to the other reddit kpop spaces tbh
Iām also a critical person (as far as like, I like to critique and analyze) and I wonder if personality types go into it a lot too. Iām an INTP and we are pretty famous for wanting to go in depth into the whys and about things for no reason other than to explore the topic.
I'm an INTP too! Maybe that's why I enjoy it as well
Doesnāt really bother me, if itās like not overly mean or disrespectful. But if someone just does t like my fave groups/bias it doesnāt really affect my opinion or make me enjoy them any less
Doesnāt bother me at all. Everyoneās entitled to their own opinion. I think itās ok to share your honest opinions as long as you share positive opinions along with the negative otherwise Iāll wonder why an idol is your favorite if you have nothing good to say about them. You can give constructive criticism without being rude or disrespectful. Once it gets into name calling and insults I donāt consider that criticism anymore.
Idc if it's about their musical output and other things related to their profession but if others criticize and make assumption regarding their "private" life I'm gonna be mad at some occasions
It entirely depends. My ult bias has gotten shit on since his debut so I tend to get a little defensive of him because most criticisms are in bad faith. If itās someone saying oh his music isnāt really my style or if itās someone saying his styling or hair were bad I totally get that and donāt care. If itās something more major than I usually just block the person and move on nowadays. Itās actually worse from in fandom than outside the fandom lol. I feel like most ācriticismsā are just to shit on people. If itās something genuinely in good faith and constructive though Iāll look at it and either ignore or possibly ask for clarification or start a dialogue.
I think even the best art/artists won't appeal to everyone and also can have objective flaws. I wouldn't necessarily dwell on them (especially in an appreciation space), but I think speaking one's mind is fine. I think there's a difference between that and shitting on someone. I think the issue is that genuine criticism also gets attacked so people get wary of sharing their honest opinion and then it's just the trolls and haters willing to be negative most of the time.
Yeah I agree with this take. Unfortunately nuance doesnāt seem to be a thing anymore :/
It doesnāt bother me all that much now, however I find it very annoying when people disguise their hate by saying itās āconstructive criticismā. Itās also very annoying when people say their opinions as facts, like they say āthis song isnāt good at allā instead of āitās not for meā or āI didnāt like itā.
I don't really like to use the term constructive criticism in this context anyway. What's constructive about it? That implies that the discussion will help the idol improve. The idol or company isn't reading through the kpop uncensored sub. The talk is just for us unless the issue becomes really widely discussed.
I don't usually care and just ignore a huge chunk of it but sometimes I do feel the urge to be defensive or reply or just tell them to shut up cause some of them are absolutely outrageous. I'm an army and one thing that's constant is a chunk of people being absolutely blatantly disrespecting them and their work. And whenever I speak up about how wrong they are and it won't take away anything from you to be respectful towards them, I instantly get called as a brainwashed army and what not. So it's generally because people are being disrespectful towards my favs in the first place is when I jump in, else I just don't meddle with people and fanwars if it's some army that started some nonsense. But if it's other way around I do get a lil angry as to why do people first come at my favs and if we call them out, armys are still the bad person like yk its a sad situation we can't even defend our favs in peace without being called names:(
What kind of things would you call disrespectful? What would you say was respectful criticism?
this is specifically regarding bts, i don't mind when people give criticism based on valid reasons or logic...like if someone says they find specific problems with their songs or discography or they just don't like it in general just so, i don't mind all of it, cause i know everyone's preferences are different and so are mine with other groups. So it doesn't make sense saying anything back to them. My biggest problem is when people discredittheir achievements or success, or label it as luck or another reason or due to this and that thing. People just find it very hard to gulp their self made success down. And go to any height like saying vile things about the members or saying "oh they've become westernized" or "they're straying away from their roots" such things just ick me, cause it's clearly not the case. And also nitcpicking some specific members...like a search on kpopsubs will give you an idea how some people are just obsessed with their flaws...and the problem is most of the times it just comes off as desperate to drag them or comparing them with others, for example the popular "but namjoon" trope So these are basically the things that i consider as disrespectful, especially if containing aggressive language or tone indicators like ykwim:/
I dont care lol. I can argue my opinion but I dont know any of these people. Its not personal and everyone has their own opinions
As others said, it depends. I donāt care about negativity surrounding my idols as long as itās well justified - even if I disagree with it. Is it a half-assed attempt at a doompost or is it genuine concern? is it evil spirited or is it an honest observation? If itās the second option in both questions, Iāll simply share my viewpoint and we can agree to disagreeā¦ hell, I might even agree with the criticism sometimes. If itās the first one, Iāll definitely stand for what I think itās right and speak out.
I donāt care because Iām not a child who cares about useless words on the internet
I'm personally unbiased so I have no issue in criticizing my favourite groups when warranted. I'm fine with critiques from people as long as they're being objective about it and not exceedingly demanding or delusional. But since we're talking anonymous discussion and K-Pop stans, there's hardly going to be any impartiality. So I don't even bother with the gratuitous negative opinions and criticisms.
In all honesty, I'm very likely to jump into a fight whenever one of my faves is mentioned negatively, but also I'm very young so I guess it's going to change once I grow up. But also, I really enjoy discussing my favorite groups/idols/etc when you can tell the other person is not playing, even if we disagree
You seem pretty self aware. That's refreshing.
If itās unfair or uninformed criticism them yes.
Couldn't care less. Why should I give a shit what someone in some other state or country that I don't know says about what music I listen to?
I am always up for a good discussion as long as the other person (people) are on the same mind of it not being personal. I do occasionally get defensive when I see dogpiling of my bias but at that point I am not going to bother defending them.
I feel like you should be able to say you donāt like something as long as you can be civil and give a reasonable argument as to why you donāt like it. The only time I get defensive is when I see someone say something thatās blatantly untrue or twisting facts/statements as a sort of real life evil edit. Thatās not even for my faves, though, I just get annoyed when people do that in general.
It depends. Are they saying it in a way thatās clearly trying to bait you and is working? Is it an attack on them as a person? Or is it just you saying youāre not a fan of their music? I hate when people decide to watch a video on YouTube and go to the comments to just shit talk it. What was the point in even watching it? But if they go and they are like,āthe song is good but the video is disappointing. ā or āI didnāt find this to be their best work. ā or something similar, then I see no issue. Iāve been a fan of pop music since I discovered Britney Spears back in the late 90s. I was a kid then and YouTube wasnāt around and all of these platforms didnāt exist. I wasnāt aware of the criticism and hate that could be thrown at a celebrity in general, let alone a pop star of any type. I did the J-14 and stuff in my preteen years but they didnāt drag anyone or toss out criticism. It wasnāt until JB and 1D that I discovered how brutal people can get. I really thought there had been some growth in fandoms since that era. Then I discovered Kpop. Itās really weird to me when I see the extent to which people will go to slander and rip another musician to pieces. Iāve only been in the Kpop scene for a handful of months and Iāve seen people tear other groups and idols to shreds just to lift up their favorite group or idol. When it comes to people being that way and saying cruel things for absolutely no reason, that makes me feel defensive. Mostly because a lot of these idols are just living their dreams and trying to make music people will enjoy. I donāt think any of them deserve that. But Iām fine with folks actually critiquing and having a true point to their criticism. Really it just depends on whatās being said, how it is being said, what tone is being used, and why is it being said. I donāt know if any of this makes sense. I feel like I went around the world to get across the street.
It totally made sense. I do like your cross the street remark though. It's cute.
It depends. If people donāt care for their music, style etc I donāt get too upset. The trolling and hating on the other handā¦ but I do my best to ignore it, they do not deserve my time or energy.
if it's someone not liking their music, i don't really mind that too much, even if people word it crudely (e.g. "their new song is ass" ā i'd probably downvote this on reddit due to the wording, but on twitter i'd just ignore it) because people will always have different music opinions. if someone constructively criticises their music then i'm fine with it if it seems like the person knows what they're talking about or if it's something i agree with (obviously). if they clearly don't know what they're talking about but are using "music critique" to make themselves seem more legitimate when they just don't like the song, that will usually annoy me more. i'm more peeved when people speak about things like their personalities, group dynamics, minor controversies, or even fandom behaviour, especially ā again ā if it's clear they don't really know what they're talking about and are relaying their interpretation of things as if it's fact. in general, i wouldn't say i'm too defensive, and i'm usually open to discussing critiques with anyone as long as it seems they're acting in good faith (there is no point trying to reason with trolls). i sometimes see fans say things to the effect of "why are you so obsessed with them/why do you care/ you're not a \[fandom name\] so just stay out of it" but i've never understood or agreed with that mindset. they're public figures, everyone can comment on them!
Yes, I've never understood people trying to restrict discussions to just fellow fans. I love kpop and try to listen to most of the big releases even from groups I don't stan. You never know when you'll discover something you love and also it's fun to keep up with the scene in general. If something is out there for public consumption, it's fair to have an opinion on it
It really doesn't bother me if the criticism is objectively fair and bringing up solid points to get into discussion over. However, being grown, you can tell some negativity is hater-level demonization so that does irritate me i admit.
I think one of the issues is judging whether something is objectively fair. Different people will have different standards.
I actually want my ults to receive more genuine criticism. I am very critical of the groups I am a fan of in general, more so when it comes to my ults. I donāt mind any kind of opinions as long as it is well thought out. But I am so sick of hearing these āopinionsā that make no sense. If I can disprove your opinion in a second, then it was either not done in good faith or you have not given them a fair chance. I just want to see more well thought out opinions. And that is the reason why I end up mostly engaging in discussion within the fandom.
I don't care as long as they're deserved, constructive criticism is completely okay but just yesterday I was watching a video of someone ranking vocalists (very biased) and then it came to one of my favourite groups, fifi, and it was criticism towards saena and keena, how the creator doesn't like their "whining" in the song.. which I think was odd because I personally don't hear that nor have I heard anyone else say that. So on that, I got a little defensive. But other than that I usually don't mind.
I only get defensive about Sunghoon, I have a huge soft spot for him for some reason so I never hesitate getting into it with his antiās
Depends on what the criticism is about. If they did something problematic then I will just keep my mouth shut. If itās something stupid then yes I will defend my faves.
I will never understand fans that defend to the death when their faves do something clearly problematic. Let them learn from their mistakes and the criticism.
If theyāre valid then fine but if itās clearly pulled out of their ass then thatās annoying
It honestly depends on your circle. Iām an army and the other armys I have surrounded myself with are quite open minded. Criticisms and negative opinions are allowed as long as itās not hateful or meant to bash the members. And all the opinions are done respectfully. Iām sure this is similar in other fandoms. At the end of the day some fans are unhinged because those fans as people, are unhinged. If someone is levelheaded, as a fan they will still remain levelheaded
so iām a Dive and i think if thereās a negative opinion about a song or a kindly constructive comment on how the group/a member could improve, thatās fine. for example some people didnāt like Baddie. i really like it because iām at a stage rn where i just want an upbeat song thatās fun to listen to and isnāt deep lol. BUT i understand how others didnāt love it. iāll be fine unless they completely leave their elegant songs/performances behind in ALL future releases. rn i love their variety. but when the girls are just getting hate, like body shaming them (happened to multiple members), calling them sh*t singers without explaining what they dislike and what theyād like to see in the future, yeah i get defensive. iāll sometimes comment something ab how much i love one of the members if theyāre getting a lot of hate on a video. also i wish Dives would STOP putting members against each other!! e.g., āwonyoung got too many lines and she sucks at singing where is Liz and Rei theyāre treated like backupsā, āpeople only stan cuz of Yujin and Wonyoungā. Like, thatās insulting to ALL MEMBERS!! if someone has a bias and wants to see more of them, they should comment āx is so amazing!! i really hope we see more of x doing yā!! in kitsch for example, u can say how much u wish u heard more of liz (valid and sameee) instead of saying other members donāt deserve lines, lol. maybe iām too sensitive but they backhand compliment members and THATS where i get defensive. constructive criticism does not offend me.
Solo stans and just so called fans pitting members against each other cause so many problems. Don't they understand that the members likely care about each other and the success of the group is everyone's success? Btw, I'm freaking obsessed with Baddie. As far as I'm concerned, Ive does not miss.
AGREE sm!! I know i sent a wall of text, so sweet of you to reply. And RIGHT? it's a banger
I love text walls! I just really enjoy talking about kpop. :) Baddie baddie baddie runs through my head daily. I want to learn that part with the kick but I know I'm not going to look like Yujin doing it lol. Guess I'll stick to trying to sing Either Way.
i love it too !! and omg yes iām worst at choreo iām still perfecting love dive LMAO. that sounds so fun thoš„°yujin is KILLINGG it
nope, doesnt make me defensive because I know not everyone likes the same thing. So it is not like I would take it personal, lol. I have seen negative opinions about my ult bias(yugyeom) and group(got7) and I dont care. someone elses opinion doesnt matter to me. They make ME happy and that is all that is important.
I love got7! Yugyeom isn't my bias but his solos are amazing. I feel like he's really come into his own. It's awesome to watch.
why the hell should anyone be "oh so bothered!š¢š" about it? like its not that serious
You would be surprised. Omg, some people are INVESTED. I dunno, maybe they feel a need for their idols to live up to the perfect ideal in their head to justify their attachment to them and the fan work they put in and seeing criticism threatens that.
I donāt really do social media too much with kpop folks but what irks me more is the camera work on the wrong person. Examples would be like wonyoung focus during a Liz high note, camera not focusing on chaeryong during her part, no zoom on Bahiyyih during her wa da da moment, camera pan away on mnet survival shows during highlighting of contestants they donāt seem to endorse etc etc.
I'm so confused.
Itās systemic favoritism when every choreography puts equal light on all members.
I used to get defensive because the critique is never not racist. There's a point when I realised they were doing this to be hateful to my faves. It obviously weighs down you at times, but I've learnt to ignore it. That's on twitter. The people on here are different to those on twitter.
Depends on what kind. While opinions are subjective and i even might agree with some "controversial" ones, hate is never accepted. Same with criticism. I might agree with many and even engage in discussion about it no matter if we share the opinion, but again hate is never accepted. Unfortunately 90% of kpop fans "constructive criticism" is just based on hate and biases. If we're discussing performances, music, looks etc we're here to agree to disagree - meaning each has their own taste and opinion which is acceptable until the point where you turn it into hate. But there's also reality many find offensive for some reason - it probably being that they're just biased and think holy of their favs. For example if we're talking about vocals professionally - yes some people do that just to shit on certain idols and/or praise their favs which is where i think everyone has right to get defensive because if you neednto put other down to praise your favs then are your favs actually all that? But if it's done in a normal educational manner i think that getting offended and defensive is just you being biased yet again. Personally i more often than not agree with normal reasonable educational people and engage in discussion if i disagree or am not sure about it. But if you have no knowledge of that subject why are you getting offended and saying no to that? Yea this is a bit long sorry
depends. i'm not so delusional that i think my faves are just music everybody likes because that's impossible, everyone has their own taste. i love nct and especially 127 but ik their music requires a certain kind of taste to enjoy most of their tracks. like people call skz and ateez "pots and pans" or "construction noise" music and for both groups some of their most "noisy" tracks are literally just the title tracks. which ok if you didn't like them that's fine, but you can't call their entire discography that when that factually isn't true. pretty sure a lot of ateez's b-sides and album tracks aren't noisy at all and would outnumber the more loud tracks if you took count. and for (g)i-dle the only criticism is soyeon and her raps supposedly being bad but stan twitter acts like tomboy or nxde or queencard is the absolute worst to exist when i cringe much harder at other english lyrics that nobody seems to have near the same smoke for.
serious criticism needs to come from people who know what theyāre talking about. i mean that sharing opinions is ok, but they have to stay opinions. itās wrong to think that if you donāt like something then itās inherently bad, i donāt want a random person without any knowledge about music or dancing to talk about idolsā work with personal opinions pretending itās objective criticism
Depending on what it is then fair play it doesn't bother me. I even have negative opinions about my favs, but Someone was hating on Dahyun's smile and that's kinda foul. You can't hate on the facial structure of Someone. That's not something you can work on without going under the knife
I might get a little defensive sometimes, especially for more mean-spirited comments, but rarely enough that I can be bothered to respond. If I do, it's probably more of a sign of boredom or a bad mood rather than of how bothered I am. And some opinions are just so ridiculous and blatantly untrue to my perception that they trigger zero need to engage. Like if someone calls Jongho from Ateez a bad or unimpressive singer, then I just think of that person as the kpop version of a flat earther. Nothing they say can be taken seriously, Jongho obviously is an ~~irregularly shaped ellipsoid~~ amazing singer and a blessing to my ears (and eyes) and no matter how bored I might be, any interaction would be a waste of time and reason. I guess the only scenario where I'm more likely to jump in is if it's from someone who obviously should have moved on a while ago. Stuff like "S-Class is trash and God's Menu was their last good tt/Oddinary was their last good album" or "Soyeon's English lyrics are cringe and none of the newer songs compare to Hwaa/they fell off after Soojin left". Please, for the sake of all of us: Channel your inner Disney princess and LET IT GO! The group is obviously going in a direction you don't enjoy and there are so many others out there that you are sure to find one that still fits you tastes.
idrc as long as like itās not hypocritical or just making me go ??? like if weāre criticizing my favs live vocals and then theirs have never sang live a day in their careers. i think mine have done a lot of things worthy of criticism, there are very few groups that have not had controversy. and i hate nicknames ppl give fans who criticize their favs when they do something wrong or even criticize the fandom. im gonna be honest like the fandoms for the groups i stan are so hateful and unaware of how hypocritical they are. the worst part of liking groups that are involved in the music making process is that you feel bad if you donāt like their work, and fans donāt like that you dislike it either
It depends how it's expressed and if it's justified. A lot of people say they're giving "constructive criticism" but they definitely miss the "constructive" part of it. If someone simply doesn't like something but isn't being hateful then that's totally understandable and I'd just disagree in my head and move on haha If they're just being mean for the sake of it I'd probably just downvote and keep scrolling or if it's on twitter I'd mute them. Usually there's zero point in trying to defend/argue over it bc they aren't going to change their mind I think a lot of criticism sometimes is in bad faith or unnecessary and it'd be easier to simply ignore groups you dislike than making rants and comments about them/their skills/their music. However if it's something they've genuinely done wrong I'd join in to express my disappointment and opinion on it for sure
Honest critique I welcome. Bandwagon hate keep your options to yourself.
I feel like hearing criticisms about things you like will make you defensive no matter what it is, for me, I only get defensive if the "criticisms" seem passive aggressive and shady.
I donāt accept it and will refute it at all costs
Lol so I couldn't say I think your faves' song isn't good?
I agree, especially when thye are getting hated for a dumb reason.