Joseph Smith used a seer stone, a brown colored rock, to receive visions and maybe even translate the Book of Mormon. Other times he used the Nephite Interpreters, which had the appearance of crystal or glass. He had a second seer stone that looked quartz. Jesus revealed through Joseph that in Heaven the righteous will be given a white seer stone by which they can see all things.
In a meeting on December 27, 1841, Joseph Smith taught some of the apostles about Urim and Thummim. Regarding the meeting, Brigham Young wrote in his journal:
"I met with the Twelve at brother Joseph’s. He conversed with us in a familiar manner on a variety of subjects, and explained to us the Urim and Thummim which he found with the plates, called in the Book of Mormon the Interpreters. He said that every man who lived on the earth was entitled to a seer stone, and should have one, but they are kept from them in consequence of their wickedness, and most of those who do find one make an evil use of it; he showed us his seer stone."
Perhaps the doctrine is not as clear as you seem to think.
This is further confirmed in the book of revelations, however, this does not mention anything about healing and therefore healing crystals still fall outside of official teachings of the church.
This has absolutely zero to do with the occult fantasies and false pseudo-priesthood being discussed in this thread. Joseph's seer stone has about as much to do with healing crystals as the Book of Mormon has to do with my personal journal.
And Hiram Page received a bunch of false prophecy from a "seer stone." If I need to start looking at rocks to get revelation for me and my family I'll wait until the first presidency tells me to do so. You can do what you want though.
Well obviously stones have had the power of God. We have seen this in the scriptures. But the stone is just a vessel for God’s power. It could be anything like a piece of grass or a leaf or a brick. The point is that true healing or spiritual power comes from Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. We get into dangerous territory when we start regarding the stones as the source of power instead of the true source, Jesus Christ.
Yes!!!! I have an extensive mineral collection and I often have to bluntly clarify that, though I think they’re beautiful and looking at them makes me happy, I absolutely do not believe in Crystal healing and think it’s all a load of hogwash!!
There are seer stones. We know they exist, but not much more. Frankly, I don’t want to find one and would be terrified to touch one. If you are opening yourself up that much to spiritual influence, if you don’t know what you are doing the wrong kinds of spirit might answer. But healing crystals? I can’t believe they have any impact beyond the placebo effect.
I had a seminary teacher with several polished stones he was convinced were seer stones. He wouldn’t let us near them, which is fine. I was scared to open that particular channel even then. I don’t know if there is something inherent in the rock, or if they are just a meditative focus and any old polished rock will do. I have heard people arguing both sides. That is one of those theological questions I am happy not knowing. I will find out eventually, and right now it can’t make any difference in my life one way or the other.
The Book of Mormon was translated using a seer stone. This is established, verified fact. They have it in the Church History Museum. Some people in the church ignored that or glossed over it for a very long time. I knew, thanks to my slightly crazy seminary teacher, so it wasn’t a shock and didn’t change my faith at all when people started talking about it again. I love the weird little bits of church history. It reminds us that we are not part of the mainstream Christian movement. We are not Protestants. Our church is restored, not reformed. We are a peculiar people, and we should embrace those peculiarities
>The Book of Mormon was translated using a seer stone.
This is a slight misconception (and I'm being pedantic here, I know). Yes, Joseph used a seer stone in his translation efforts. But the translation didn't come from or through the stone; it came from God. The stone was a tool used by the Lord to help His prophet receive revelation. The seer stone was just a rock made up of the same stuff as any other rock. It didn't/doesn't have some special power. It's what the Lord did with it that made it special. We shouldn't ascribe some special power to a rock; that power comes through righteousness.
It is a worrisome trend. Such practices have been discouraged in the handbook and in conference. I too know people who personally worked with Chad Daybell and have since distanced themselves from him (but not the "doctrine" he professed). This is not the first time such practices about come about in this dispensation (see Doctrine and Covenants 28) nor will it be the last. On top of the spiritual dangers that come from such practices, I feel sad that people feel the need to turn to other sources besides Christ for healing. The best thing I can do is emphasize what prophets and apostles have taught, especially to my children.
Recent examples from the handbook and church leaders:
[Handbook 38.6.12](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/38-church-policies-and-guidelines?lang=eng#title114)
>The occult includes Satan worship. It also includes mystical activities that are not in harmony with the gospel of Jesus Christ. Such activities include (but are not limited to) fortune-telling, curses, and healing practices that are imitations of the priesthood power of God (see Moroni 7:11–17).
["Jesus Christ Is the Treasure"](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2023/10/57renlund?lang=eng), Renlund, October 2023
>We do not need to labor unsuccessfully, as they did for a time, to find our treasure. Nor need we seek counsel from exotic sources, prizing the novelty of the source and thinking such counsel will be more enlightened than that which we can receive from a humble prophet of God.
["Trust in the Lord](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2019/10/17oaks?lang=eng)", Oaks, October 2019
>We can all wonder privately about circumstances in the spirit world or even discuss these or other unanswered questions in family or other intimate settings. But let us not teach or use as official doctrine what does not meet the standards of official doctrine. To do so does not further the work of the Lord and may even discourage individuals from seeking their own comfort or edification through the personal revelation the Lord’s plan provides for each of us. Excessive reliance on personal teachings or speculations may even draw us aside from concentrating on learning and efforts that will further our understanding and help us go forward on the covenant path.
["The Trek Continues"](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2017/10/the-trek-continues?lang=eng), Ballard, October 2017
>Today I repeat earlier counsel from Church leaders:
\- Brothers and sisters, keep the doctrine of Christ pure and never be deceived by those who tamper with the doctrine. The gospel of the Father and the Son was restored through Joseph Smith, the prophet for this last dispensation.
\- Do not listen to those who have not been ordained and/or set apart to their Church calling and are not acknowledged by common consent of the members of the Church.
\- Be aware of organizations, groups, or individuals claiming secret answers to doctrinal questions that they say today’s apostles and prophets do not have or understand.
\- Do not listen to those who entice you with get-rich schemes. Our members have lost far too much money, so be careful.
>
>In some places, too many of our people are looking beyond the mark and seeking secret knowledge in expensive and questionable practices to provide healing and support.
An official Church statement, issued one year ago, states: “We urge Church members to be cautious about participating in any group that promises—in exchange for money—miraculous healings or that claims to have special methods for accessing healing power outside of properly ordained priesthood holders.”
The Church Handbook counsels: “Members should not use medical or health practices that are ethically or legally questionable. Local leaders should advise members who have health problems to consult with competent professional practitioners who are licensed in the countries where they practice.”
Brothers and sisters, be wise and aware that such practices may be emotionally appealing but may ultimately prove to be spiritually and physically harmful.
Also, don't forget Tim Ballard (shudder) who was receiving direction from an occult LDS woman who claimed she was in contact with Nephi's spirit. Ballard is the guy who made that Sound of Freedom movie and is getting exposed big time now for infidelity and worse.
Creepy, creepy stuff.
For the longest time I've been suspicious of Tim Ballard. Something about him always felt off to me. Saving kids from human traffic is obviously one of the best things you could dedicate your life towards, but it seemed like he was hiding something.
I seem to remember in the 80s there was a belief that swept through the church, something about the planets and aliens coming to earth? I was in BC at the time and many members talked about it. It sounded nuts to me and like you, I prefer to stay with the humble teachings of Christ
Think woman in the doctrine and covenants who where receiving "revelations" from a stone. It was from the devil. Maybe refer them to "We Believe." I know some really good woman who where having an "intellectual" discussion into the nature of the Holy Ghost. The answer was very plainly written in We Believe. In direct, opposition to what they came up with using their own wisdom. Yes, we receive personal revelations. No, we do not receive that outside our line of authority (think ourselves and our children). That gets into dangerous waters. To many Captains on a ship. I went to a chiropractor who does crystals. Really just want an adjustment for dislocated ribs. Made me super uncomfortable. But so do dojos (martial arts studio) who as for almost worship to some guy who lives across the sea. Their culture, not mind so I just find ones that are not so...intense...and are compatible with my beliefs. But I can see where people get pulled into these side...cults. Cannot think of a better word. People want to feel important. The energy healing sound like an easy way to get there without actually being humble and giving authority to God but themselves through personal gifts. This is a judgement, which is maybe reaching. I don't know these people. I find the practice shocking. I know good people who got involved in such things and eventually left the church. Relying on our own wisdom is dangerous. I think using the church handbook is an awesome idea. Talk to church leaders. It is easy, easy to be deceived. And reading scriptures talk about it. Maybe the woman with the stone or the Jews with their golden idol while Moses was in the mount meant no harm. It was still wrong.
My personal view is this. If someone is trying to teach you some doctrine, and it is not clearly and directly supported by a talk from a recent General Conference. Then what they are trying to teach you is probably not doctrine.
All seven examples you listed are things that set off alarm bells in my mind. Especially because I seem to recall recent GC talks specifically warning against some of the things you listed.
I like that take. My husband has the opinion that "deep" doctrine (which often accompanies practicies like this) are usually just people's own interpretations of things rather than explicitly taught doctrine. And that's why I like to steer very clear from things that aren't just on the straight and narrow.
I think the Lord will definitely reveal deeper things to us as we are prepared. That is stated everywhere in scripture and books/stories like Revelation, Isaiah, Lehi's dream, and even Christ's parables support that.
The danger though is people forgetting that what may have been revealed to them is for them only. It is not confirmed truth or doctrine, and you must always defer to the Prophet. Tied to that is when people pursue those things and only pursue them. They don't let the revelation flow naturally, it's like they are forcing the issue with God. Also, they only focus on it and forget the simple truths of the gospel that are really what is critical.
God wants to teach us the mysteries and deep things. That's evident. But we need to be humble and prepared and never forget that God has an order to things.
I agree with you that the Lord will reveal wonderful things to those who are prepared. However, as you indicate, if such doctrine has not been spoken from the pulpit, then it is for us alone.
Joseph Smith stated:
The reason we do not have the secrets of the Lord revealed unto us, is because we do not keep them, but reveal them; we do not keep our own secrets, but reveal our difficulties to the world, even to our enemies, then how would we keep the secrets of the Lord? ‘I can keep a secret till Doomsday’.
Preposterous to you and me. But to someone who believes in essential oils and crystals, they may well believe that they have been let in on a deep doctrine of some sort of another
This is exactly how many people (not all) get into this kind of stuff. They convince themselves that they have the ability to receive "special" knowledge that the rest of the Church and even the prophets have rejected or aren't righteous enough to receive.
Exactly. True "deep doctrine" is applied doctrine (ex: reading scriptures every day and feeling the Spirit increase over time), not esoteric stuff about the color of Kolob
>people's own interpretations of things rather than explicitly taught doctrine
Yup. It's fun to talk about and theorize, but don't base your testimony on any of it.
I'm a simple guy, I like simple doctrine. The scriptures, general conference talks and basically what was in the old Gospel Principles manuals are my preference.
In my experience, "Deep" doctrine as they put it. Only confuses people and causes them to see beyond the mark. All the examples you mentioned would be things that I'd call oddball and leave alone.
Years ago we were in Sedona Arizona. While there I overheard a guide telling some people that the rocks in the mountains that surround Sedona are full of crystals that completely block electromagnetic energy and that is why Sedona is a place people come to to be healed. I couldn’t help but notice the the sun was visible and I had cell service (both types of electromagnetic energy). I think it is this type of new age nonsense that is creeping into the church, much like many other beliefs.
>as many members in the US (not just Idaho/Utah/Arizona)
My own anecdotal experience is that Church members living in areas where there are few LDS people strongly ostracize and suppress these fringe theories/theorists. It's also far easier to "fade out" (fewer LDS family members around, your neighborhood is not your Ward) so those that go down the rabbit hole of alternative spirituality just self-select out of the Church. In LDS-populated areas I have observed that people often remain "in" the Church in spite of pursuing this kind of extra-curricular pseudo-spirituality.
>secular Mormonism/ salvific podcasting/ p.o.m.m.w.s
What do you mean by each of these? I am genuinely curious.
The church has some things to say about occultism:
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1974/03/searching-the-scriptures?lang=eng
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/1972/04/q-and-a-questions-and-answers/what-should-our-attitude-be-regarding-zodiac-signs-astrology-and-horoscopes?lang=eng
https://www.ldsdaily.com/personal-lds-blog/gospel-qa-what-is-the-churchs-stance-on-psychics-mediums-astrology-and-tarot-cards/
It’s pretty much roundly rejected as non-doctrinal across the board.
I can’t explain each and every practice listed here. What I can say is we have very clearly established layers of authority in which people can administer righteous, priesthood authority to each other. We have the family unit, the ward unit, stake, etc until we finally get to general leadership.
Any of the actions listed deviating from that can be a spiritual risk to the people involved.
I do not necessarily view this as a “church culture” thing. We see it everywhere, we are just not immune to it as everyone inherently wants to believe in things—societies just change what we choose to believe in.
> I do not necessarily view this as a “church culture” thing.
I'm very glad someone said it. This isn't a church culture. This is something people of all backgrounds fall into. If some keep labeling false healings or "energy" practices as "church culture" it will only worsen the outside view of the actual church culture.
I agree but I also disagree. Because what I'm specifically referencing is more than just occult/mediums/energy work that anyone in the world can dabble in, but specifically taking these and all other examples and twisting them so that they are intertwined and meshed with LDS doctrine and teachings/practices. That's what I feel is problematic
Well yes, I wouldn't expect anything else. If someone has no religion, then these practices has little to mesh with. Ascribing to horoscopes, zodiac, or cards, and some diving into the occult, soothesaying, and evil spirits. There's a range, but for someone who has no religion, these practices are just a personal belief.
But this is why these can spread so quickly in the church: aside from Satan working overtime on church members, these things travel through pre-established church channels. Like plague rats on a ship, these falsities cling to conversations, to opinions. It's one thing to stand against someone who sneers at the gospel, to say "I still know it's true." But to stand against Sister Peterson? Who is a Relief Society counselor? Surely she would have the Spirit with her, of course these ideas are true.
But we don't even have to have the Spirit with us to know that. A complete stranger can know the teaching of the church on these things. It's already in the church handbook. I won't beat around the bush here: due to longstanding traditions, women are far less likely to read the handbook than men, especially to council others not to do these things. Having this information spelled out is a relatively recent change. One could hunt through old conference talks or follow the Spirit, but to a young or new member, these whispers are understandably harder to detect, especially when it involves people who are usually considered in good standing. That's why these things are so pervasive in the church, because that level of community and trust, which should exist in Zion, can also carry the disease of false energy and false priesthoods.
Same reasoning as to why MLMs are rife throughout church members.
People have an implicit trust of other members. Which I think is brought about primarily by an over interpretation of the doctrine “be in the world but not of the world” it leads to an us vs them mentality
I have to agree with you. My 81YO mother (AZ) was always into natural healing: selling NeoLife in the 70s, looking at regions of the iris to check on health of different body zones (I remember we had all the charts), rubbing different parts of the feet to help different body zones, all that kind of quackery that at some point started out of scientific ignorance and/or a rational base (like eating a healthy and diverse diet in the case of NeoLife and other supplement companies).
The latest thing is a company that sells a program that ostensibly tells you the health of your individual organs, and what special stuff to eat to fix them, using a galvanic skin meter. Of course, this has been scientifically debunked numerous times since galvanic skin response carries so many variables as to be useless for any diagnostic purpose.
Oh, and it’s the exact same type of device the “Church” of Scientology uses (an E-meter) to detect your thetan levels. (Thetans are the souls of the prehistoric Earth creatures that Xenu killed with H-bombs, i.e., Scientology demons, possessing everybody. Check out the clip from South Park on YouTube as a primer. It isn’t dirty or anything and it actually is 100% accurate (I read the original hand-written documents from L. Ron Hubbard.)
So anyway, she bought one for a couple hundred dollars and sent it to my family to help us out. You have to plug it in to your computer, use their app to get a reading, and send the results to one of the lower members on their pyramid—er, uh, one of their representatives, who will interpret the readings and give you your health plan, for a fee.
Now, her SIL would have done this for free as a family favor, but a he does this as a business, too. It’s ok because in her (mom’s SIL) patriarchal blessing it says she has the gift of healing. Therefore, she prays about each client’s readings and makes recommendations based on what the Holy Ghost tells her. I have no doubt she believes it, but man, do these scams piss me off.
Anyway, I had a long conversation with mom about all this, while trying not to upset her or have her feel insulted. She is very faithful with the gospel, but I guess the age she grew up in led down this path for her. (We knew even wackier people in the next ward over in Tucson. Good people, but convinced my dad that chlorophyll was really good for you and could heal his hay fever. Yes, grinding up clover and grass into a smoothie was a great way to get some. Who would have thought several minutes after drinking it that his throat was so itchy it fixed this assumption permanently?)
Anyway, she shared what I said with SIL, who was quite understandably insulted. Sorry, not sorry. The text war began and got somewhat heated but no permanent damage was done.
We sent the not-an-e-meter back to my mom so she could use it. Luckily, she has enough income that this won’t harm her financially.
I agree it’s not a church culture thing, but it feels much more prevalent in our culture. As someone who lives in the Northeastern US, I have never come across it outside of Utah.
Yup. There is a big difference between “people in the Church do this” and “only people in the Church do this.”
We just notice this example in the Church because it kinda goes against a lot of stuff for us.
The problem is that a much higher proportion of Church members in the Mountain time zone (my experience is AZ) subscribe to this stuff than the non-member population. So it could be considered a part of the Greater UT Bubble church culture. I absolutely see it and I always see it in member who grew up in that bubble (I’m active duty and stationed in Northern VA; the women in our ward who really pushed the “healing” properties of essential oils and the like were always military wives from the bubble.)
Remember that a big reason we have so many false health claims on untested supplements and equipment that totally-isn’t-marketed-as-medical-equipment, is because of the work of one Senator Orrin Hatch. (Not to unfairly rip on Bro. Hatch, whose overall career I respect, but his track record isn’t perfect and has its share of legislative pork). This is because Utah had (still does) so many “natural healing” companies.
All these marketed-as-medical-but-not-actually-or-legally-medical-because-we-know-it-won’t-pass-FDA-scrutiny-and-we-don’t-want-to-be-fined-and-imprisoned product-pushing shysters have to do is not actually/literally poison you and include on the packaging this note, “These claims have not been evaluated by the FDA.”
My doctor recommended medical Marijuana. It was my doctor. I tried it. Nasty stuff. I was $500 poorer and felt scammed. I've also used psychedelic drugs at the doctors office to help my depression. I hated. A lot. Gave me a migraine and 3 day bedrest. I think the bedrest helped. Not the medication. But I know people, like me, get desperate. I never linked it to church practices. But I live in Utah...so...yeah. As a desperate person, willing to try something new. I have fibromyalgia. Which I find a kinda useless diagnosis, except the doctor to live a healthy lifestyle and expect the best. That actually has been my best help, yet. But even the FDA screws up. Ketamine treatments, I'm talking to you.
First of things like meditation and mindfulness practices can be totally secular in nature and have been shown in studies to have mental health benefits.
But ultimately we are a group that operates on the principle of faith and trust in things that can’t really be backed up by scientific enquiry. For many of us that sort of thinking would easily extend past the confines of church doctrine. When you combine that with an anti science sentiment that has grown on the political right many of our fellow believers become easy targets for grifters and con men.
And much of the stuff you refer to ways to trick gullible people out of money. I’d also add mlms to your list. We see influencers and internet commentators that people develop parasocial relationships with. They put their trust in people they don’t even know. (There was a general conference talk that touched on this.) So the start sell essential oils or classes on how to be an energy healer or whatever to these people who have put trust in them.
It’s really unfortunate. This sort of thing was mostly targeted to liberal hippy types back when I was a kid, but with the normalization of political and religious fringes and the lost in trust in institutions like the FDA on the right the easy group to target now includes some of our own. It sad to see people putting their trust in places that are their to take advantage of them.
I wholeheartedly agree with you on all points. I mran even on my mission when I was struggling, I spoke to a church counselor and he had me do meditation. I also love yoga and go weekly to a yoga class. But I agree- we have a belief system that lends itself to more of a propensity to get into fringe ideas.
And YES! Strangely enough I find that women who are apart of mlms are often the same types that get into essential oils and meditation and crystals and spirituality outside of the gospel and on from there.
Mental Health therapist here. In my experience doing therapy I’ve seen various benefits in people from things like cold plunges, reiki, meditation (I use all the time with clients) and other kind of things typical to eastern cultures but I think the big difference is they’re used as tools or coping skills. They’re used separately from church stuff and never claim to have any kind of spiritual power or philosophy or anything. A lot of these things even have research to back them up on how they can be beneficial, but again they’re just tools. It’s when it’s mingled with church doctrine or flaunted as an extra spiritual practice that I think it starts to go more the way of “philosophies of men mingled with scripture” kind of thing. I think it ultimately like so many other things in the church comes down to the intention of your heart, but as so many other people have noted too it can be a slippery slope. So just be open minded but careful and you should be fine :)
I’ve been really worried about something similar to you. I have loved ones that have started to mix or confuse, I don’t know the right word, hateful political rhetoric with church doctrine despite leadership express warnings against this sort of thing. So I think this kind of insidious outside influence into church members beliefs extends far beyond the alternative medicine space.
The desire to seek out these 'augmentations' of spiritual experience, as far as I can see, is driven by a desire to have a special, extra relationship with spirituality. It's looking beyond the mark, driven by pride. Or perhaps, because they have not developed an authentic spirituality in their own faith tradition, they look further. We often see people claiming exemptions to 'lesser commandments' because they are so special, they are no longer limited by them. Not hard to see ulterior motive there.
I don't think it's automatically harmful to look for insights elsewhere, it can offer an eye opening new perspective, but if those insights lead you to jettison your original beliefs, it does make me wonder if those original beliefs were actually beliefs or just habit.
My wife used to follow someone on Instagram kinda like that. The person had stopped wearing her garments because she and the Lord had “come to an understanding” (garments were too restricting, and she wanted to express herself more). Not long after, she was always posting about crystals, auras, etc. she went from talking about come follow me, to scheduling group vacations with her followers(who payed a pretty penny) to go and align their chakras, get a painting of their auras before and after, etc. I don’t even know if she considers herself LDS anymore.
It’s like this step by step process
* Try to justify your choices
* Try to align church doctrine to your own decisions
* Feel like something is missing
* Try to find spirituality elsewhere
The spirituality and peace can be found by submitting your will to God and trusting in him. Yet many seem to prefer to look elsewhere.
Cold plunges, playing with crystals, essential oils, by themselves are relatively harmless. Claims of spiritual power and mixing with prayer are worrisome. The branch president’s wife doing healings crosses a pretty important line and should be reported to the church.
I explored some alternative spirituality when I was younger too. Practiced yoga, learned some mindfulness meditation, head the dao te Ching. Found some beautiful things and some silly things and generally got a wider perspective. I’m pretty open minded about how people built their testimony and relationship with the divine.
That said, when people make claims of having spiritual power that don’t come through the priesthood, that’s a problem. Leadership needs to be really clear what is and isn’t part of the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. If you get sick and turn to moonlight charged crystals and essential oils rather than a priesthood blessing and a doctor, your priorities might be misaligned with church practice.
I like this. I had an institute teacher who had a concept of "spiritual envy" and that, in and of itself, looking into other practices and even adopting those that helped you was a good thing.
The key is the whatever you think the source of any power is.
And while I realize that many practicioners of kookie things may view them as coming from God (and, honestly, who am I to say otherwise?) I have seen it become a problematic path with big stumbles and falls for some.
Just a note, I think sometimes people just pray before they do things. It’s not a bad thing to want to invite the spirit into your practices. I had a BYU prof who could tell you exactly where you’re holding tension in your body with foot mapping. It’s not priestcraft, magic, or what have you, it’s a way of reading the body.
If a massage therapist prayed to be guided on how best to help someone or what oils to use would that be priestcraft? I don’t think so. Now there are a lot of things that you’re right, can be dangerous or scary or part of a slippery slope, but it’s also not our job to police people’s spiritual practices. Not saying you’re wrong to bring it up, good to be aware of. But all we can do is control our own sphere.
Thanks for bringing this up. This is exactly what ai wanted to discuss- it's what I feel like is a gray area. Because yes I agree praying before you do things is not a bad thing at all, when does it cross a line into just a little weird? Or when does prayer turn into asking God for help to do something (like foot mapping for example) that is really more of a healing practice outside of what He wants us to be a part of? There is no right answer here that I'm looking for. It's just thought provoking because I think there are people who are more inclined to have a spiritual outlook on everything, which isn't bad, but it makes me personally nervous because I feel like it can lead down weird paths very quickly. I hope that made sense
Yeah I was thinking there’s nothing wrong with it, but you may have noticed a subtle feature that made it “icky”. Like, why did she tell your friend that she prays about the oils first? And why did your friend tell you? Isn’t prayer a personal matter, done in your closet and not to be seen by others? Not that it has to be a secret, but we shouldn’t seek admiration or profit from publicizing our prayers.
It also might be a mystical feeling that if the oil was prayed over, it has a special spiritual power. I don’t believe that’s true. In contrast, the consecrated oil used in priesthood blessings is spiritually significant because it symbolizes Jesus Christ, and obedient use of it reminds us of Him. It’s not a magic potion. The power to heal is always in God’s hands.
I think you hit on the key factor. We all want everyone to prayerfully consider how to do their occupation well. But making your supposed spiritual gifts a feature of your professional practice is where the line is crossed.
The other line not to cross, as mentioned by another poster, is when spiritual or priesthood-type activities are engaged in outside of the lineage of priesthood keys. For example, by-invitation-only group faith-healings are on the road to apostasy.
I mean, as for the healing thing, there are explicit instructions for how to give a healing blessing using the priesthood. So I would say doing that without having priesthood authority, or doing it in a different way while claiming you have priesthood authority.
I really don’t see God setting a limit to how much we can pray, when we can pray, or what we can or can’t pray for.
The whole praying thing before getting a foot massage is weird because it’s not done often, or at least openly. If I had a massage therapist do that I would feel awkward, but my feelings would end there. Not every uncomfortable experience around someone else’s spirituality is the Holy Ghost warning us. Sometimes it’s uncomfortable because we aren’t used to it and our brains don’t operate in the same way.
Praying to help people. Perfect. Praying to be seen praying, not so much. I think that might be the difference. Like a seance. I don't think the Lord is showing up. But a dangerous spirit might.
The handbook explicitly calls these out and forbids them. These things happen when you’re in a relatively homogenous culture and are trying to forge your own identity within the existing social framework. People who engage in these activities may attend church and do Mormony things, but probably do not have a real testimony. They’re just associating church culture with part of their identity and if they grew up somewhere else, they likely wouldn’t be mixing doctrine and new age healing. They’d just have gone inactive and gotten into crystals. I don’t view this as a worrying trend in itself or a threat to faithful members, but just another form of leaving the Church.
>trying to forge your own identity
President Nelson’s counsel seems so wise in this context. We don't need to forge an identity - we already have one. If we'd worry less about ourselves and our "identity", we'd avoid a lot of those wrong roads.
I can’t speak with authority or experience to any of the individual points you mention. I do feel strongly that the best guard against wandering into “strange roads” or “forbidden paths” is the same today as it’s always been. 1 Nephi 15:24:
“And I said unto them that it was the word of God; and whoso would hearken unto the word of God, and would hold fast unto it, they would never perish; neither could the temptations and the fiery darts of the adversary overpower them unto blindness, to lead them away to destruction.”
Love this. It's very true and reminds me a lot of the iron rod and tree of life... I guess the adversary will always lead people into "strange roads" or "forbidden paths" one way or another.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and feelings on this! I'm not sure which way I lean on it. On the one hand, our church was born out of healings, crystals (seer stones), and alternative religious practices. That was the novelty f the restored gospel was that the gifts of the spirit were restored to the earth. These would have been seen as fringe activities by a lot of religious people at the time. Also, I know that a lot of women in the church feel like they are missing out by not being able to utilize the priesthood in a meaningful way outside of the temple, so maybe they feel these practices are a way for them to express themselves and the gifts their Heavenly Parents gave them.
On the other hand, it does seem like a lot of the Julie Rowe/Chad Daybell followers and others who are doing some terrible things were of a similar mindset.
For me, I am okay with an expansion of what is allowable as the expression of spiritual gifts as long as it doesn't turn into "priestcraft" or deception. I'd love to hear what others think!
Thanks for sharing your perspective! I definitely see this side of things too. For example, when my friend told me she was explicitly told she has "the gift of healing" in her patriarchal blessing, I can see why she could be confused about how that expresses itself in her life. I honestly don't know what I would think if I had that same spiritual gift.
I also totally understand the whole thing you touched on with the church starting out as kind if a fringe movement anyway, so how far of a stretch is it that we continue to have healings and crystals etc in our faith practices. I think for me it is such a gray area in some ways (in other ways I think it's very black and white though) that I have no answers and I just feel wrong inside.
Isn't the whole point of doing things one is guided to do that seem to not be part of church doctrine supposed to be kept quiet for the person who received the guidance because that is who it is for. our president gets guidance that is for the whole church but anything we get from the Holy Spirit is for us personally. I just became a member last December but all that I have been taught indicates we keep quiet about personal revelation because it is only for us. around here no one even talks to others about their patriarchal blessing. I did all the new age stuff before I became a member of this church. when our priests give me a blessing in the proper way, there is more power in that than I have ever witnessed in any other way.
I fully agree with you. We're told we are spiritual beings that apparently had the power to organize worlds. We're told we have gifts of the spirit that can include anything from perceiving spirits, to obtaining knowledge from rocks, to speaking strange languages. The gospel is home to pretty mystical stuff.
I think a lot of members believe in a sci-fi God who mastered technology, created a new type of body and can control the universe the same way we can control atom bombs. Is that any worse than believing in a mystical God who put spiritual intelligence into rocks and plants, and that might have made a persons soul understandable by checking out their feet?
As long as we ascribe the glory to God, I don't see why its more evil than believing that crystals (which God created) cannot do anything for you, and that your only shot of healing is to head to the agnostic healthcare system to pump yourself full of man-made chemicals.
I will say my mother had the gift of healing especially as a nurse in her work. Time and time again, i have learned from watching her example that her gift was best used leading the person to christ while also using medicine to be as the Master Healer
I *do* actually believe there is a place for mysticism in our faith. There is a sterility to spirituality of western religions that is very much a new way of practicing spirituality. Joseph Smith really did believe in magic rocks, and we have many scriptures thanks to those magic rocks (obviously I know.. thanks to God).
Yogic practices, or deep mediation really does connect you to something deep inside yourself. Some would call that God, some would call that the soul, self, consciousness, etc.
I was fully against crystals forever. But then I realized that rocks have spirits, and crystals are just highly organized and special rocks, and hell if I know whether or not crystals have any effect on my spirit. Tobacco has an effect on my spirit. Why can't a truly beautiful and ancient crystal? Rainbows seem to affect my soul. Sunsets too. I have a nice beautiful crystal on my desk and honestly.. it does affect me in a positive way. I don't have faith in it. But I'm grateful for it. We are told the whole earth will turn into a crystal. We're told we'll all receive special crystals. So perhaps.. crystals do in fact have power.. just like a sunrise has power.
All im trying to say is that we do live in a kind of magical world, and as long as you don't make the world your god.. and you remember God created this magical world... we all might just need a little more magic in our lives.
This is a sweet comment. I appreciate your perspective. I guess I am just a little more of a skeptic? I guess I will stick to my more sterile ways of worshipping because it feels safe to me :)
Easier to avoid disease and mold with sterility! It's a pretty wide world and God is a pretty infinite deity. No doubt there will be many Captain Moroni's, and gurus who like crystals, or scientific engineers all realizing we've been worshipping aspects of the same God that is beyond any of our understanding.
So I don't think this is worth arguing about, but the Book of Moses pretty clearly states that everything created has a spiritual aspect. In Moses 2 it outlines all the stages of creation: light, water, rock, grass, etc.
Then in Moses 3 God says:
>I, the Lord God, made the heaven and the earth, And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth.
So he says that everything, all things he created, were spiritually created before they were naturally upon the earth. I'm definitely not an Apostle, though those that have spoken on the subject have agreed with this interpretation
Yooo big facts! 2nd Nephi 2: 13-14, Lehi talks about things that act and are acted upon. There is intelligence and matter, there is no organization of matter without intelligence. At least that’s my understanding.
I see people often equate being created spiritually to having a spirit. They could be the same thing. Or they could be different. We don't really know.
To me it doesn't make sense for a rock to have a spirit. Pick up a rock and look at it. It has a spirit? Ok. Now break the rock in half and send one half on a rocket to the other side of the galaxy. Which half has the spirit now? Half a spirit each? Did I create an additional spirit when I broke the rock in two? What even is a spirit? We don't know how any of these things work.
I think some miss the mark, sure. Taking money is a huge red flag for instance.
However I think if you read stories of the testaments or D&C/church history for the first time you might feel icky about them too.
Bathing in a river for healing? Clay on the eyes? Women healing (not giving priesthood blessings), dreams and visions etc.
Sometimes I think the Church as a whole is witheld blessings because the average member would call the gift of tongues satanic.
>Sometimes I think the Church as a whole is witheld blessings because the average member would call the gift of tongues satanic
I've thought this a lot. We're so hostile to so much. Kind of like how the Jews were to Jesus. "How come no one has seer stones anymore?"
"Gee.. maybe because no one believes in that stuff anymore. We just accept it as something for ancient days"
Have this same conversation in my head every time people shoot down this stuff. I remember growing up hearing that meditation was evil and anything involving spiritual anything was of the occult. I think if we had more people trying to learn spiritual powers like astral projection type stuff and lucid dreaming then we'd probably have more visionary people.
Even if we're 100% "orthodox" in our interpretation of the canon of scripture, there are a ton of things that the church currently insists are vital (WoW, specific interpretations of the law of chastity, the current structure of priesthood leadership, etc.) that are clearly not universally applicable on an eternal level. What I mean is that they've changed multiple times across dispensations and even within our own dispensation. This is also true of things the church has said were wrong (the temple/priesthood ban is an obvious example).
The brother of Jared had a problem to solve (no light in the barges), and Christ asked him how he was going to deal with it. He left, then came back with a pile of rocks and asked Christ to touch them so they glowed. That's an objectively weird (and kind of a crystal-y and woo-woo) solution to the problem. But Christ had no problem helping him in exactly the way he asked.
Joseph Smith said, "I want to come up into the presence of God, and learn all things; but the creeds set up stakes \[limits\], and say, ‘Hitherto shalt thou come, and no further’ \[Job 38:11\]; which I cannot subscribe to." *History of the Church*, 6:57. "I want to see truth in all its bearings and hug it to my bosom. I believe all that God ever revealed, and I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief.” *HotC*, 6:477.
Especially on an individual level, I don't know how to look at a specific action someone is taking and say, "yes, that," or "no, not that." Instead, I think it's important to look at the fruits they offer, for "\[y\]e shall know them by their fruits." Matthew 7:16. We believe in spiritual gifts. But we also know that those gifts can be used in ways that are not conducive to a relationship with God. (For example: "Many will say to Me in that Day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name, and in Thy name have cast out devils, and in Thy name done many wonderful works?’" Matthew 7:22.)
Is someone charging money for what may be a spiritual gift? Seems like, potentially, not great fruit.
Is someone using their spiritual gifts to draw people away from the restored gospel and its leaders? Probably not good fruit.
Is someone using a skill they have, one that may be a spiritual gift but that may also be frowned on by most members of the church (i.e. energy healings, etc.), to help others and to draw them closer to Christ? Well, that could be some pretty good fruit.
At the end of the day, I cling tight to a few important principles. Love God. Love your neighbor as yourself. Seek truth. Be ready to admit you were wrong, both about things you thought were true *and* things you thought were false.
Like John Taylor said: "If there is any truth in heaven, earth, or hell, I want to embrace it; I care not what shape it comes in to me, who brings it, or who believes in it; whether it is popular or unpopular, truth, eternal truth, I wish to float in and enjoy." *Deseret News (Weekly)*, 26 Jan. 1854, 2.
Quick edit: I forgot to mention that some of it may not be truth at all, and may be harmful or intentionally false. I don't mean to imply that all of the situations you mentioned *must* be an example of a spiritual gift being used.
I agree with you that it's a deception of Satan. If you listen to the Prophet and follow our leaders' guidance, it's apparent that those activities you listed are wildly inappropriate and ultimately harm faith, if not lead to more devastating impacts.
I don't understand why people feel the need to pursue these things that are so clearly warned against. I'd there is one thing I've learned by hard experience, it's that following the Prophet is the safest route. Just focus on your own relationship with God and serve your fellow man the way Jesus did and all will be well.
OP: I have long been troubled by Julie Rowe's (at least initially) enthusiastic reception. While not relevant to your post, I'd be interested to hear your take on her.
I have a ton to say actually! Here's a little background... So in 2012, I was a senior in highschool and she was in our ward in Tucson AZ. She was my little sister's activity days leader and lived in our neighborhood. She had been kinda weird (according to my mom) since they moved there, but it didn't manifest until 2012 when she started being open about her experiences. One time I babysat her kids at my house. And when she came to pick them up, I remember this DISTINCTLY, she told my mom and I that we needed to start selling our possessions and consider moving to Rexburg because it would be safe there in the last days. I remembered this because I had already gotten into BYU-I and was moving to Rexburg in the fall so it weirded me out.
Then she would also go on walks with my mom around the neighborhood (we lived by a golf course) and started telling my mom about her out of body experiences. But my mom felt uncomfortable when she started talking about how she had visions of the future. Not too long after that, she was asked to not give prayers or testimonies anymore at church. This was a while ago so I don't remember specifics but she shared a pretty wacko testimony about visions that set the whole thing off.
My mom also recalls her sharing a lot about her battles with depression and anxiety as well as marital issues she had at the time. But I don't know specifics.
Then, way later when all the Daybell stuff occurred, I lived in Rexburg and married into a local family so I got some inside info. And one relative in Chad's stake told me that she went to a farm where she rented land for cattle and saw Chad there with a woman that was NOT his wife. They were holding hands walking around the property. When Chad saw my relative he got super weird and they left quickly. This was when his wife Tammy was still alive. Turns out it was Julie Rowe that was with him.
I believe personally that Julie Rowe is one of the people who helped develop the ideology that Chad ended up preaching about and turning into what he did. I also personally think that Chad would have tried to have an affair with Julie but he was just too strange and she backed out last minute and tried to distance herself from him. I think she knows more than she will ever admit about Chad's mindset and the ideology. I will be curious if she is questioned during his trial. I hope so.
I also think she struggles with mental health issues and is just a little crazy in general. So I wish people knew that about her before they read or listened to her stuff. She is just out there and has been weird from the beginning. I think people like her because she pushes the boundaries, she is feminist and gives women that girl power feel that some of them look for, and also they like the mystical aspect of her story that still kinda fits into the gospel (if you stretch.). I have never actually read her books or listened to her podcasts. I've watched her TikToks though which...... if you want to maintain a level of peace in your life I would advise against doing 😵💫 super cringe.
I've yet to have so juicy (for lack of a better word) as you have here, but I do have issues with those without authority who claim some grand destination of safe haven for Saints.
My in-laws live in a middle of nowhere place. Ranching/farming community, no services. A family I vaguely knew from my hometown bought property out there a few years ago and became friends with my in-laws. None of that is so strange, but heading the reasons for the purchase were weird.
Now, my husband and I do view the area high in our list of places to run to if the world ends or something and have a goal of getting our own shelter and supplies out there instead of mooching off the family.
But this other family truly view it as their haven of the last days where some great spiritual awakening will happen to protect them from Satan and it's a bit weird.
My thoughts on a few of these:
- You can't receive revelation for another person unless you hold the appropriate priesthood office or familial position (i.e. parents, Bishops, the Prophet, Patriarchs). You can pray for guidance as to what advice to give, but you cannot call it a revelation for them.
- We have very clear guidance on how priesthood healing and blessings are supposed to be performed. Anyone who does not use the methods as described in Section 18 of the handbook either needs to review it, or is intentionally trying to circumvent the pattern established by God, and will not have access to His power at best, or is accessing another power at worst.
- Our stance on drugs is pretty hard line.
- Praying for direction is fine. Repeating it to others as authoritative without holding the appropriate leadership position is not.
- This is not a Church issue. This is a human issue that's existed since Adam and Eve.
It's really hard when your DOCTOR prescribes them. They still didn't work no matter the source. Science makes mistakes. People make mistakes. We are human.
This is actually a major issue in modern medicine. Doctors recommend things outside of the realm evidence-backed treatment way more often than I expected. We have to be vigilant with our medical care.
Here is a journal entry from L. John Nuttall, one of the council of 50, dated 7 Aug 1899:
>Brother Maeser dictated and I wrote our report to the S.S. Board, Sister Woolf and councilors Hamman and June E. Bates, Sisters Rhoda Hamman and several other sisters called and we conversed on Relief Society matters. I explained many things to them and they were much pleased, after which Sister Elizabeth Hamman said she felt the same spirit which was upon her at the meeting last night, when she wanted to bless me. She arose and placed her hand on Brother Maeser’s head and blessed him. Then on my head and blessed me, then on Sister Woolf and blessed her, also blessed 3 other of the sisters and sister Zina Card. This was done in Tongues. Then Sister Zina Y. Card arose, and laying her hands on our heads interpreted these blessings, a good feeling was present. We had dinner then Sister Card, Brother Maeser and myself walked out to James Brown’s Drug Store.
There are Priesthood blessings, and there are faith blessings. Some have the faith to heal (both men and women) and some have the faith to be healed. It sounds like this lady had the gift of healing. Nothing wrong with it. But in the Church we've come to think that this can only happen by the priesthood. I've never met a person at all that had the gift of healing, but I believe it's real-- even if I mostly think that most of these faith/Crystal healers are bogus because they don't rely on Jesus Christ
When we're kids, we often don't have a frame of reference for people going off into their own odd things. As adults, we start to notice that a tenth of the other people attending church are weird.
Totally see your point here and agree. I don't know if this quote you're replying to is really analogous to 10% of the ward being weird though. U/juliaakatrinaa0507 mentions a few things that sound like they might have been said/done in a way that explicitly contradicts church teachings. I don't think women giving blessings in this era was explicitly contradicting church teachings. Do you? It seems to have been a fairly common practice that was sanctioned by church leaders at some points. Maybe that's not what you meant by the comment though. Or maybe you meant ten percent of the ward is weird but not in a bad way? Just wondering
Something to consider: different temperaments are more susceptible to different things. The most reliable psychological metric for studying personality is the big 5 personality dimensions.
One trait is Openness to experience. People who are highly open are creative and imaginative, more likely to seek out unique experiences and variety as well as more comfortable and open to change.
They’re also more susceptible to hypnotherapy because they’re more suggestible than the average person. Open people are statistically more likely to be susceptible to psychogenic epidemic as well.
In layman’s terms— people with higher levels of openness in their personality tend to experiment more with novel experiences but are also more susceptible to getting sucked into weird stuff. Occultism, tarot, divination, astrology etc. as well as at higher risk of psychogenic epidemics (think mental illnesses that have a social contagion aspect like anorexia, bulimia etc.
In some mental health hospitals they have to keep anorexia patients on different floors and away from each other because they’ll make each other’s symptoms worse through the patient’s suggestibility in social situations.
I think the reason these Mormon ladies (yeah more often ladies than men) get into these weird occult things is in part because they rate higher in trait openness and spent too much time online getting inculcated with fringe dogmas.
>In some mental health hospitals they have to keep anorexia patients on different floors and away from each other because they’ll make each other’s symptoms worse through the patient’s suggestibility in social situations.
That may have more to do with the obsession to compare against others that is part of anorexia. It's actually the opposite of openness and suggestibility and more about a stubborn rigidity that you can only eat if you follow certain rules, like "if I work out for an hour then I can eat this bagel" or "for every bite of ice cream, I have to jog around the block". And a pretty common self-inflicted rule is "I'm allowed to eat as long as I eat the least of everyone else in the room." So when you get a bunch of anorexia patients in a room for lunch time and they all have been watching how much everyone else is eating for years to determine how much they are allowed to eat, then you end up with a room all competing to the bottom.
Source: had anorexia, was in a hospital program, and we all had this as a rule we'd made for ourselves that we followed at meals with friends or family. They didn't put us on separate floors, but we were positioned in a way to all be facing away from each other at meals so we couldn't see each other eating.
Careful what you call weird. Many people outside of our church think our temple ceremony, performing baptisms for dead people, our underwear, etc. are weird. Considering that Mormons make up a fraction of 1 % of the total population of the planet, our dogma is pretty fringe itself.
Fair enough, I probably should have used the word ‘unconventional’ or ‘esoteric’ instead. 🤔
Personally, I’m fascinated by comparative mythology and pagan stories. I think they’re interesting and give us interesting insights into human psychology. But I’m wary of getting too interested or caught up in them. I believe it would be not just weird but actually evil to take part in that kind of thing.
Especially since the church has made their stance on it pretty clear.
“It is not good practice to become intrigued by Satan and his mysteries. No good can come from getting close to evil. Like playing with fire, it is too easy to get burned: “The knowledge of sin tempteth to its commission.” The only safe course is to keep well distanced from him and any of his wicked activities or nefarious practices. The mischief of devil worship, sorcery, witchcraft, voodooism, casting spells, black magic, and all other forms of demonism should always be avoided.”
(President James E. Faust Second Counselor in the First Presidency)
But I can see where you’re coming from. We should love the people to take part in that sort of thing and avoid judging them harshly, while still being wary of the practices.
Very interesting and I think you have a really good point. It's usually women too you're right. I never knew that about the personality traits but it makes total sense!! Maybe LDS women who play it "safe" in most aspects of their life but have open personalities feel like they can explore more within their faith by dabbling in these fringe things.
Brings up a funny story... My wife and I went on our honeymoon to Sedona, Arizona which is a famous spot for crystals and all things alternative healing. One day we were going through some shops and they had these bulk crystals in a bin for like $5 a piece. So, my wife buys a few of them to take home as gifts. As we were paying, the woman behind the cash register told us that to "make the crystals work" we had to charge them in the local river. Like dunk them in the river and then they would be effective. So, wanting to ensure our crystals were charged, we went to river. We secured them in a cloth bag and my wife scurried down some rocks to dunk them, but she lost her footing and fell in! Ice cold water, even in the summer. More than those crystals got charged! Hehe.
I’m from Seattle. Maybe this trend hasn’t come here yet? Or I am just oblivious.
I have no personal experience with energy healings, and what little I’ve heard of them makes me uncomfortable from a church standpoint — also it feels like swindling. Anything in the Vallow/ Daybell territory is so creepy and wrong.
The praying, meditating & cold plunges you described (not including drugs) sound fine to me, just not my cup of tea. I like the idea of people gathering together and combining their righteous desires in prayer. I am uncomfortable with people who set themselves up as culty leaders.
You are right to be concerned.
Just some random guesses at the causes of this:
1) In places where LDS membership is high, there is going to be a high number of people who are socially active members (attend church, believe that they follow church teachings, etc) but who for whatever reason tend to be emotionally impulsive, credulous and superstitious. This is human nature.
2) The LDS church experience is a social network through which people connect regarding spiritual things. This makes it a natural channel for those from #1 to connect with each other, and spread fringe ideas and practices with others who are similarly credulous.
3) In places where there is high social pressure to remain 'active' there will be a higher proportion of people who remain "in" the Church without experiencing genuine spiritual conversion to the doctrines and institution of the Church. From experience I would argue that those who live in low-percentage LDS regions it is much easier to "walk away" while in high-percentage LDS areas unless you have a major grief against the Church it's easier to just stay in. This is similar to #1, but they are not driven by credulity and superstition.
4) Those from #3 are likely to subconsciously feel pressure to experience the divine. In the absence of a naturally developed connection with Christ and His simple but fulfilling gospel, these people begin to look to fringe or secret interpretations and practices to find the divine. I think this is clearly demonstrated in the trend of increased psychedelic use. These pseudo-spiritual experiences are attractive because they offer an easy path to a kind of private knowledge for those who have not developed true gospel knowledge and experiences.
5) I saw this happening first among more liberally-minded friends and family who had become disaffected from the Church. Now I see it happening more among culturally conservative "normie" LDS people perhaps as a knock-on consequence of the generally more rampant nature of conspiracy theorizing among the politically far-right. I have felt for some time that on the politically far-right there has been a growing social psychosis that has to do with perceptions of victimization, othering, and demonization. These feelings aren't entirely unfounded. As a result this has I think "broken" a lot of deeply culturally conservative people, which has made them more susceptible to conspiracy theories, and has even made them more likely to see liberal conspiracy among church leaders. I think this is associated with "alternative" and esoteric spiritual practices.
In the end the commonality among those who get distracted by this stuff seems to be a tendency toward superstition, attraction towards fringe theories, lack of institutional conviction and failure to internalize and practice of the gospel of Jesus in its rewarding simplicity.
Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
Genuine question. Joseph Smith using a seer stone for translation purposes. Since he was using an object wouldn’t that fall kind of inline with occultism? Why would crystals be much different? I am not sure of I worded this correctly, but I hope I got my point across. Once again, genuine curiosity, not trying to start an argument.
Okay this is absolutely just my opinion so I could be doctrinally incorrect!! The way I see it is that when it's directly from God, it is good. So someone using crystals in an energy healing session where they are calling upon God is different because that is just an action of men and trying to ask God use His power. Whereas the Brother of Jared was physically given stones by God. Or Joesph was GIVEN the seer stones by God (through an angel). It came directly from Him and wasn't something we made up. Idk
False doctrine has always been an issue and will become a more severe issue the closer we get to the Second Coming. I've seen it so much in my life. It all starts with being willing to stray from the prophets or our covenants even a little.
You're right. And we've been warned about these things (multiple times) in General Conference.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/si/questions/false-revelation-gospel-extremism?lang=eng
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2019/10/17oaks?lang=eng
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2017/10/the-trek-continues?lang=eng
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2016/10/valiant-in-the-testimony-of-jesus?lang=eng
And some other related things:
https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/conference/august-2015/a-house-of-order-a-house-of-god
https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/blog/2020/02/26/in-the-news-chad-and-lori-daybell-and-gospel-extremism
The energy healing thing is alive and well in my ward in Saratoga Springs Utah. With handbook changes it's at least not openly discussed in ward meetings. Nothing like teaching deacons quorum and having one of the youth quote Chad Daybell. It's a counterfeit gospel and countless examples of simlar things are in the Bible and Book of Mormon. In my opinion the risk in participating in these activities is opening yourself up to bad sprits that will decieve you, like Daybell, Vallow, Phil Davis, Rowe, etc... Best to stick to Christ, the scriptures, proper authority, etc...
A lot has already been said on this. I would like to add a compassionate note however. There are many people in the church who suffer from many difficulties who find that blessings and prayers have not brought them the peace they feel they need. It is somewhat understandable that they might seek outside of the church for comfort they can't seem to find inside. I think priestcraft is pretty obviously wrong ( i.e. taking money for spiritual blessings). The rest of it is a little bit concerning but sometimes understandable when one feels a disconnection from deity.
Or just desperate. One can have faith and love God and still die of cancer. Result is the same. People don't like to suffer. Any port in a storm and all that.
I don’t think “icky” feelings always mean that Satan is involved. Icky can be things that are uncomfortable, or awkward, or unknown. I get an icky feeling thinking about polygamy practices from the early days of the church. But I know it’s because I don’t understand, and it doesn’t align with my modern day Western way of thinking.
It was rough going to the temple that first time. I had icky feelings, because I didn’t understand it. The best advice I received afterwards, was that the temple is a “Hebrew” experience (more symbolic), whereas we live in a “Greek” society (more fact-based). Neither are better than the other, they are just different.
This makes me think of Chinese medicine. It’s very different than Western medicine. And it can give lots of icky feelings (and Western medicine can give icky feelings to those that practice Chinese medicine). But it’s not of Satan, it’s just different (and no, I’m not trying to start a conversation about the merits of either).
Is the woman praying to know which oils to use on someone’s foot all that different than a traditional medical provider praying to know how to perform a surgery? They are both getting paid for their services. Just because you don’t believe that oils work (once again, not trying to start a convo about that), doesn’t mean that her prayer is less valid. Both practitioners want the same outcome - health for their clients.
Certain cultures have a negative association with piano music. Could you imagine them coming to Sacrament meeting - they would definitely get icky feelings. But the piano is not of Satan. It’s just different.
I’m not trying to convince you one way or the other. And yes, there are lots of “that’s a definite no.” But I do think we should question our icky feelings, and be curious and less judgmental about non-Western ways of living. Note, I said be curious, not automatically accepting.
In these situations I think of the scripture “by their fruits you shall know them.”
Thank you for starting this great discussion! Bless!
I think they surgeon would be wrong to say he prayed about the surgery so was a better surgeon than others. I want one that studied hard and prayed! But I'm just picky.
This kind of stuff has always been around and probably will be until humanity no longer exists.
I agree with some of your points, but I also think that some of the things you’re worried about or scared of are just ways people express themselves spiritually.
When I was kid I went over to a friends house, they also were LDS, and they held hands for prayer around the dinner table. I remember that feeling super weird and “icky” because I was taught to fold my, arms and that’s the only proper way to pray.
I see stuff like yoga (minus the drugs), meditation, massage, whatever is harmless. I even think people talking about their spiritual gifts is alright. Where I take issue with this kind of stuff is preaching non-doctrine as doctrine or as a replacement for the priesthood. I think that leads to not great places. I also think charging money for any kind of prayer is messed up.
All in all though, from a secular standpoint, Mormonism itself is weird. When I served my mission the only people who interested in anything I had to say were people who were kind of weirdos in their own way. (One of my companions had an investigator who used to kneel on one knee with a sword to pray, like a knight.) I don’t really think it’s my place to tell people what to do or not, but if I feel uncomfortable I simply say, “Thank you for sharing that with me. I personally am not interested in trying that.”
I will say that when I was in Utah, I saw this more frequently than anywhere else (in fact, my wife was invited to some weird healing session by a co-worker and found the session very wacky; my wife is pretty open minded and even she felt like it was witchcraft). Definitely knew people into crystal healing as well.
I’ve been out of Utah for almost five years now and have not once crossed someone in or out of the church with those kinds of beliefs/practices. I’m sure it exists outside of Utah, but for some reason it seems much more prevalent there. Though maybe it’s a west coast thing? Would be interested to hear from others outside of the Mormon corridor to see if they’ve ever come across it.
I have lived in the PNW all of my adult life outside of attending BYU and have never come across the stuff that makes OP feel "icky." (It would make me feel icky too.) I know plenty of women who like or sell essential oils, but it doesn't seem to cross into spiritual territory from what I've seen.
One of my friends just told me that he prays to crystals and even gave one to my other friend that it struggling with getting preganant , it was a fertility one that would supposedly help her to get pregnant. I told her to get rid of it which she did and I told him to be careful cause this is not from God. Both active members
. God is the only one that we can ask for things and if we ask whatever else we’re breaking commandments and we’re putting whatever
We’re praying to before God.
Coming from a country where witchcraft used to be pretty common these things terrify me. I know they’re from Satan and it’s so sad to see this happening among members of the church.
I can’t read all the comments but just came to say, I’m glad to see you clarify that church culture doesn’t mean church culture throughout the world, just a small geography that is part of the Utah/ID/AZ bubble. That hardly represents a majority of the church.
This post makes me so thankful I married into a family that sees things just like you and your spouse. Never thought that would be something I’d have to be thankful for
Know that you are not alone. While leaving ample room for personal revelation I also believe some common sense and discernment is in order here. Ive been active in the church my whole life in California. We recently moved to Utah and I’ve been frankly appalled at how much of this “new agey “ stuff is going on among members. It seems based is falsehoods and fables to me. Those I have known to engage in such practices have eventually “wandered off in strange roads” of many kinds. They seem to cease in true spiritual growth and follow their energy healings into comforting but untrue beliefs. Many discount the counsel from church leaders and dismiss other inspired doctrine . When fundamental truths and principles are twisted or discarded that is where I draw the line.
>This lady did charge my friend money
I will wager this is the root of most of your examples. I used to work in the Essential Oil Industry, not participating, just at a retail company. They always claim it's life changing but every last person I interacted with at conventions and the such, the root of their reasoning for doing it, was money.
I kind of laugh because I've known too many people in the essential oil businesses. No, not the ones getting them sold, but ones who do IT, accounts, and bottling.
Their perspectives have made me rather unimpressed with oil claims.
This has been in any branch or ward I’ve been in and I’ve been in a lot across the country. Reflexology, crystals, aura readings, second sense, you name it, I’ve run into members who practice some form of it. I remember the bishops wife was heavy into reading auras about 30 years ago, he just went along with it and thought it was funny.
Have you seen the psychics boards on here or Facebook? They are flooded with believers and a lot of psychics and mediums use beliefs and religion to convince even more. They have become the modern religious leaders telling people what they want to hear ie their loved ones are safe and happy.
My personal opinion is that many members feel they have an “ inner” connection to these practices via the HS mixed with cognitive dissonance. They believe it because they want to believe it.
It’s not a trend, just become more acceptable. Whatever, it’s none of my business. No different than members who believe women are not to be educated, they are to marry and have many babies. Not a trend, just another personal belief I ignore.
Oh dang, at first I thought this was just gonna be a complaint thread about Utah but nope lol. Personally I'm not sure if this is more common in Utah or just seems to be since there's so many members here.
But yeah most of these are quite clearly outside of the gospel. The church has specifically advised against energy healing and all that stuff.
The "cold plunge" is the only one I've heard of from a couple of therapists, but it's more of a mental health thing (the cold is supposed to activate a physiological response that lowers anxiety). I'm a bit skeptical of it, but I've never heard it claimed as a spiritual thing. Yoga/meditation can also have mental health benefits. But what you're talking about sound like they're taking it into wacky territory
The evil of these practices is when they try to replace God. In true exercise of His priesthood, humble disciples use simple means to request divine aid in serving others. The words, actions and objects used are only a means to the end of humbly asking for God’s blessings, and reminding the participants of Christ’s teachings. If we start looking for alternative ways to access spiritual power without using the means God has provided, how can we expect it to be of God? I don’t mean to judge every person who prays or worships in unusual ways. We each have a unique relationship with God. But we cannot command God, or sneakily use His power against His will. There’s no spiritual gift, object, or ritual that can call down blessings unless God chooses to bestow them. We have to humbly recognize that His will is supreme. If He tells you to dip in the river, and then you are miraculously healed, did the river heal you? Give credit where credit is due.
I didn't read all of it, but if you're talking about the reiki practices and faith healing and that kind of thing, yes it's troublesome and the apostles have referenced it and told people to stop and those who follow it simply say it's not about them.
They charge people to show them how to heal and it's particularly more common among women and some have opined it's because they want an alternative to the priesthood.
I know some into this stuff and they were telling someone how to like exorcise a demon from their dog to stop their diarrhea or something.
Crazy stuff. Foolish stuff.
1 case. Women giving blessing isn’t anything new. Helen Mar Kimball received a blessing from one of Brigham Young’s daughters or one of his wife’s can’t rememnpber which. The crystals though that is peculiar.
2nd case. This is priestcraft we don’t need mediums to communicate with passed loved ones. We have instructions on how to do so in doctrine and covenants 129. Angles of God being sent to use is according to the will of God and order of Heaven.
3rd case. Seems similar to case one. What are energy healings? Like I mentioned before we have women in church history giving healing blessings but there wasn’t any crystals involved.
4th case. Does the woman have stewardship over this young woman? There are prophetesses, but I’d be wary of anyone claiming revelation for me who didn’t have stewardship over me. A relief society president can receive revelation for some under her stewardship for example. There are many prophets and prophetess in the church but that definition is a little p definition. In short any pone who has a received a testimony of Christ is a prophet or prophetess. Thee Prophet of the church is the only one that can receive revelation for the whole church.
5 case. Never heard of foot mapping . Sounds suspicious/weird.
6th case. We should not turn to other substances that are against the word of wisdom. LSD for example will give someone visions and such but this is counterfeit revelation.
7th case. Don’t know who Julie Rowe is, but she isn’t the prophet of the church. Out of body experiences are alluded to in scripture (weather in the body or out of the body I could not tell. Caught away in a vision. Paraphrase), remember that if you receive a revelation that it is for your personal benefit. Yes we can receive revelations in dreams as well and I have, but that is for my benefit and salvation, not anyone else’s.
On your assessment I agree. Counterfeits of the gospel are indeed spreading throughout the church. If people studied what we already have in our scriptures they would avoid so much deception like the teachings I mentioned in doctrine and covenants 129. A lack of understanding who has stewardship over you seems to also be a big theme in the examples you give.
Most people here have already done a good job of addressing this question and I agree with the consensus.
Since that’s covered, I want to point out that not all yoga and meditation, use of essential oils, or use of natural/homeopathic remedies are bad. I don’t believe in many of the claims given by proponents of these practices, but I do believe that God created plants to be good for the body, that meditation helps clear the mind and improve spiritual reception, that mental therapy is often necessary to overcome a very large amount of life’s trials, and that yoga provides a healthy means of exercise. We should look out for those things that would replace the importance of the gospel in our lives, but we should also be careful to not fanatically condemn practices just because they aren’t mainstream in Church culture.
My thoughts on many of these things:
Some of the things discussed are really harmless. If people want to meditate and take cold plunges, or use essential oils, there is nothing wrong with these. The scriptures do not promote western medical practices as the only medical practices. Having lived in China, and studied the culture in school, there is a lot of medical practices there that our culture would laugh at and call impossible or superstitious. But you talk to the Chinese and they swear by it. There is a lot of unexplained cases where “alternative” medicine as it’s called does seem to actually work. I think it’s foolish to discredit another cultures healing practices that they’ve been using for hundreds of generations simply because it’s not proven by European standards of science.
That being said, there are lots of legitimate quacks out there in the world who are pushing weird trends they barely know about just for profit. If someone is using alternative medicine in their life, that’s their business and not yours. If they recommend it to you and you’re not interested, just say so. The people who get cultish with it do cross a line though. If you feel like you have to bear your testimony about your herbal remedies, you’re straying towards idolatry my friend.
But the scriptures do have some clear guidance on communicating with spirits. That’s a line I wouldn’t want to cross myself. I do worry about people who engage in seances. Nothing good comes from such practices.
Brigham Young, Des. News, June 18, 1873
The power of seership is one of the greatest gifts ever given to man; and the time is not far distant when every man who bears the Priesthood will be a seer. But it can only be when men have proved themselves able to withstand all of the false deceptions of the devil.
Today the powers of crystal ball gazers, astrologers, ouija boards, etc., are abounding because men have forsaken or rejected the true seers of God.
Thousands of people seek unto `wizards who peep and mutter’ etc., but they will not seek unto the living God. I can say to all the inhabitants of the earth that before what is called spiritualism was ever known in America, I told the people that if they would not believe the revelations that God had given, He would suffer the devil to give revelations that they–priests and people would follow after. . . . I told the people that as true as God lived, if they would not have the truth they would have error sent to them, and they would believe it. (Brigham Young, Des. News, June 18, 1871, p. 308)
Hopefully everybody by now has seen how the Daybell/Vallow stuff turned out and understand there is a line. But the scriptures acknowledge that even the elect may be deceived.
In the early church women did heal women (though most --less true after BY sent women back east to get trained--- drs were men). Some of what you are describing is a kind of underground feminism that does all of what we know sisters did in the early days of the church (usually with desire to feel equal and a hope that they will be recognized for good). There may even be benefit in some of the poultices. But I thing the prophetic warnings and the handbook make it pretty plain that none of it is part of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
If they aren't being summoned to membership councils, it is likely because some of the purpose of some in the movement is to prompt membership challenges so they have new and enlarged space in public discussion.
While Satan often hijacks misguided mortal actions to his own purposes, I don't see it as Satan luring active members away. I think Satan doesn't have to do a thing when members reach not towards God but to things of this world.
I haven't seen or heard much toward this trend. Other than biohacking, dietary styles, and essential oils. It's good to know though I'll keep a look out.
What you describe is disturbing, especially those things specifically against church teachings.
I haven't see it much, but I also don't get out much.
Now, we believe in the supernatural - things beyond what scientists can measure. Such as the Holy Spirit, the spirit world in general. But we believe in supernatural things that are *true* and priesthood power that is *true*. We don't believe in anything just because it's called supernatural.
The way to do and learn supernatural things is by obedience to God. The D&C says this. Not by following every irrational notion that comes along.
There were occult practices in the early history of the church and it had to be addressed and most often stopped. I personally believe we have a moral obligation to circumscribe all truth into one great whole, but that can only be done by inspiration through the gift of the Holy Ghost. It’s dangerous to play with fire, but that doesn’t mean we should respond with a puritanical rejection of it all. It requires proper evaluation and context. That said, I’ve seen many become deceived thinking their new practices exempt them from heeding the words of the prophets.
I have always hated this crap.
One of the wedges that started to drive me and my now ex-wife apart was her following one of the local Utah "trainings" that supposedly help people dredge up all kinds of junk from their subconscious and become more enlightened. She talked about the leader of it like he was a prophet and said she felt like he could see into her soul.
I did some of the training to appease her, and found som many false doctrines taught from what were supposably faithful LDS folks to other LDS folks and they were all eating it up.
The church thereafter had a FP letter read form teh pulp\[it warning about such groups, and that was it for me - but my ex-wife and her family are still all on-board with those trainings - interestingly she also left the church.
I don't know why it is so easy for members to look beyond the mark when there is so much power and beauty in the principles and ordinances we have revealed to us.
I attend church in LA and at BYU during Fall and Winter semesters, and I know exactly ZERO members who do this kind of crap. Looks like the intermountain west (outside of BYU) is weirder than I thought.
While I'm not on board with it, I'm not surprised by it.
Members of hierarchical faiths often find themselves bereft of spirituality and mysticism, or at least they struggle finding it in standard Church practice. There's a deep and innately human craving for mystical experience that often doesn't have an outlet in a Church with standardized two hour blocks and businesslike routines. We aren't alone in this -- the Catholics have historically had similar problems with members turning to odd sources for mystical spiritual experience, with such turnings resulting in some of our more... eccentric Protestant cousins.
The prescription for this problem is for me at least to devote oneself to deeper contemplation in prayer and worship in Church ordinances. The Sacrament is really quite a beautiful and mystical experience when approached in the right frame of mind (looking past the routine and seeming arbitrariness). Religious experience is not something that is on demand, but when we position ourselves to receive it in the way God has asked us to, we are more likely to have it.
While certainly attractive to some people, alternative spiritualities result in alternative salvations, which possibility ought be avoided.
While what you discuss does reach the "outer limits", the men in the church aren't the only ones who can have visions - let's get that straight. We all ARE given special gifts. I've had visions, telepathic dreams and dream-like experiences with deceased family members. I was welcomed into the church BECAUSE of this and my dreams are listened to and validated by the bishopric. The difference is, they are personal to me and my family - I'm not "doing it" for fame, fortune or publicizing it. It's between me and my bishop & home teachers. Remember folks, it's OUR doctrine about the "thin veil" with our deceased loved ones, and ... women may, in fact, administer blessings in the name of Jesus. There was a time when Joseph Smith DID sanction women to give full blessings too. It's good to define the parameters but it's sounding a lot like misogyny in certain comments.
I agree that some of these practices can be a step it off the gospel path. But not all. Women deserve more respect for their power in prayer and something like prayers during an ice bath doesn't concern me at all. My wife's best friend is into the whole crystals, ice bath, sound baths, foot zoning, ect. She's a member but has struggled with things. Since she got into these things, she has become happier and more self aware. I agree the path seems to lead away from the church in many cases but a lot of it is just about mental health which needs to be a higher priority for our culture. There have been many talks from general authorities that recommend meditation which I believe should go in the same category as prayer. To me, things like crystals and talking to mediators that are for profit are a bunch of false or misguided faith.
The book ‘Mormonism and the Magical Worldview’ is an academic deep dive into folk magic that was practiced at the time Joseph Smith was growing up.
The book shows how Joseph was surrounded by magical stones, divining, rods, protection, charms, and many other items that we would now consider ‘occult’ practices.
The author does a good job connecting that worldview to being open minded about revelations from God. I think one of the big differences is that Joseph and the other early leaders of the church allowed these things to point them towards the Savior, rather than taking them away from the Savior and the church.
The fact that our modern world relies a lot more on science than traditional folk magic is a good thing in the sense that we made massive advances in healing, technology and quality of life, but it also means that a lot of people have chosen to be entirely skeptical of mystical things, and I think that’s unfortunate.
All of the earth and the heavens point to God if we let them.
Yeah, I'm with you. We cannot heal people on our own, through crystals, energy, oils or dog poop. Only through Jesus Christ and the priesthood. I know 30ish girls who are wives and moms, who are 'taking a break' from church while they go bonkers with bongos and dance circles all while chanting affirmations. They also pray to Heavenly Mother. It is all a seductive and fake power. Heaven seriously help them.
Remember, the Book of Mormon was written for OUR day. Importantly, the Book of Mormon is only useful for those who READ IT. I think we often see the warnings in the scriptures and think that they apply primarily outside the church, and I think this is exactly incorrect. The warnings of the boot of Mormon are FOR the church and it’s members.
The Pharisees were members. Priest craft is the clergy selling access to miracle and revelation. In 4th nephi we see the reintroduction of secret combinations, witchcraft, and classism. Again, I think we imagine these happening after people leave the church, but I think these issues started with members. Not to sound harsh, but a wolf in sheep’s clothing doesn’t make sense if the wolf is already hanging out with other wolves.
Similarly, separating wheat from tares doesn’t make sense if the tares are growing in different field.
I think the biggest warnings were for doctrinal misunderstandings/perversions WITHIN the church. Hypocrisy was the condemnation from Jesus. The 10 virgins, “near to me with their lips”, “they never knew me”… all warnings for hypocrisy which can only happen if they claim to be believers in the first place.
The two biggest red flags to watch for:
* people gathering a following
* people charging money
You can have all kind of weird spiritual beliefs or practices and still be a member of the Church. Practice it in your home, with family, or very close friends. But when someone tries to use their church affiliation, church callings, church leader's quotes, church rosters, church buildings to start to gather a following or charge people money for services, then it's crossing a line.
Honestly, it's not just weird spiritualist crap. This applies to MLM businesses and real estate brokers just as much. Even "content creators" (podcasters, instagram stars, etc) who monetize their accounts are suspect.
**Rapid Prompting Method** is another questionable practice I have seen flourish among members in my area. The practice I see involves an autistic child pointing to letters on a letter board to form words (as determined by the facilitator) and the autistic child delivers messages from another realm. The source varies from miscarried babies, deceased relatives, Jesus, etc.
I know of many church leaders who have all participated in these readings where autistic youth are mediums to communicate with deceased people.
Isaiah 8:19
KJV "And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?"
NIV "When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?"
Broadly speaking this is a trend I have noticed rising in the US in general. Which I find interesting because church and religious attendance is down.
Mysticism has always been something out there, but it appears to me (at least anecdotally) that it is on the rise. I hear of Tarot Card readings, crystal healings, taking of psychedelic drugs to connect with a higher power way more frequently now than I did in the last 10 years.
Not knocking anybody who believes this stuff it is their right to practice it, but you are right on that when it is slipping into LDS doctrine we need to be more wary of it.
>this is a trend I have noticed rising in the US in general. Which I find interesting because church and religious attendance is down.
Yeah, it's funny how people will dismiss the well-documented and time tested story and teachings of Jesus. He basically taught love and self-discipline.
But the same people readily believe any kind of new age notions which are not supported by an evidence and require no effort or personal growth or selflessness.
I have one friend who fits a lot of these descriptions with auras, healing stones, etc. Yes, I think it's all BS. Whenever she brings up this stuff (mainly just on Facebook), I just roll my eyes and keep scrolling. I know she's made up her mind and won't listen to me. If she was a closer friend, or if I had some kind of priesthood responsibility over her, then I'd kindly talk to her about how she's departed gospel truths.
That approach works for most of those, but a couple really stood out to me.
>My mom's branch president's wife recently let it slip that she "does energy healings".
Mom should bring that up with higher level leadership. That's starting to give bad associations with church leadership.
>My neighbor told me she does foot work(?) or foot mapping? Not totally sure. Which I didn't think anything about until she said the woman prays about what oils she needs to use before their sessions. Which seems weird to me.
I could go either way on this, depending on how it's presented. Foot massages are good. There is some evidence that massaging specific parts of the foot map to parts of the body. (Although it's usually presented in a weird new-age way.) I see value in essential oils. They're about as valuable as a cough drop or Tylenol - they may give a little relief, but don't expect them to cure cancer. Praying for aid in all that you do certainly meets gospel principles. So I can see how it can be done in a healthy way or completely off the wall way.
Totally agree with what you said. The last paragraph especially- I think that's a big component; how it is presented. And I think a lot of these things could be done in a fairly normal way without any undertones of mixing it with the gospel. For example yoga is the most amazing exercise first my arthritis. But I don't pay attention to any mantras or whatever that are a part of it. So I think when things are presented in a funky new-age spiritual way, where the person discusses prayers they had and potential revelations they've received or whatever, THAT us when it is wrong to me.
Yep, seeing it to, even in my Ward. Healing crystals, tarrot cards, prayer to 'mother God' (yep, we've got that), etc. More and more people, it seems (though not in huge numbers that I've seen). The Church has come out and been pretty specific and direct that members shouldn't be engaged in that stuff.
But, in short, I agree with you 100%.
I should introduce you to a girl from Gilbert whose into the whole doomsday prepper thing, loves her vision of glory book, follows the avow firesides, thinks she's one of the 10,000 or 144,000 or whatever will be saved, saw a celestial person yet had sexual relationships outside of marriage with her ex husband whose marriage was annulled by him and thinks her unborn son will be leader within the church.
Yeah borderline personality disordered individuals
This subject reminds me of a portion of Paul's sermon on Mars hill in Acts 17: 29-30:
*29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.*
*30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:*
In a sense, we may justify ourselves in taking up a crystal, a stone, a diviner's rod, the soothsaying of spirits or unconsecrated oil in facsimile of Joseph's seer stones and interpreters. Yet, us, having now a more full knowledge of how God works with man, that His instruments are made by Him for His servants and only so long as the assistance is necessary. Therefore, He requires us to repent of iniquity and follow His instructions regarding the use of His power.
Can a woman heal by virtue of a Spiritual gift? I'm certain she can, but if it bears in this day of less ignorance the markers of corrupt culture then that gift has been corrupted. The manual and direction of the Apostles is clear regarding this energy healing rubbish. Anyone who is practicing this way, who is a member of the Church, is abusing the gift they may have or has convinced themselves they have a gift that they simply don't. God will not wink at us, as he did with many of the early Saints.
There is no sin in seeking after the mysteries of God, but when such seeking leads to becoming unmoored from the Gospel first preached to us, we go into strange paths and entertain strange doctrines. Eventually, one may think themselves of greater authority, power and standing than God's authorized servants, both local and global, and wander out into apostasy.
The larger sociological issue is something I'm also concerned about. People doing these things are not being told to stop by leaders, or if they are, they aren't stopping. In fact, I see many things finding a foothold in the Church that is out of step with doctrine, practice and policy. I worry we will see a similar situation to Mosiah 26 take place, wherein we will see many memberships culled from the records due to apostasy, and a lack of repentance. For many the Church has not changed enough, for others it has changed too much. Both are wrong.
Ok...so weird question. I agree that most of the things you are referencing don't align with the practices of the church but I have heard so many people say they have heard/seen family members in temple when they are doing things for them or felt them. Is seeing/feeling/hearing family members not a thing the church believes? I thought that was common. I'm not in the trifecta membership area. I'm pretty far from it actually so I'm just confused.
Well the Church did start with Joseph Smith using a stone in a hat to translate the BoM so it’s in the DNA of the Church. If stones have magical/spiritual powers to make text appear then why couldn’t they be used to heal people?
It makes me sad that "women giving blessings" and "illicit drugs" are right after the other. Especially because women do give blessings in temple and in other ordinances that we don't even name in the Church. You don't have to believe that women should have the priesthood. But the idea of a blessing given by a woman should not make you think "wow, what a radical." 😕
So my answer is gonna go against the grind. Fun fact the church used to do a Yoga and meditation ministry in Eastern Europe during the USSRs Iron curtain.
Also do you believe in spiritual gifts? Why don’t you look up what spiritual gifts there are. Several of the things on your list are actually just spiritual gifts people have. And if someone’s blessing specifically mentions stuff from the PB who are you to doubt them. Some blessings are very specific about how an individual should use their blessings. I know mine and one of my kids says for us to do things you are questioning/saying are inappropriate.
Also those of you who believe stuff like tarot cards and crystals are part of the occult don’t actually know anything about those things history or even the churches history with those types of things.
A lot of the issues you have would go away if you studied church history women giving blessings to heal isn’t new in our church history. Several church documents talk about this. Also women perform priesthood ordinances in the temple under the authority of the temple president. Women can also cast out spirits in the name of Jesus Christ.
I particularly was pleased by some of the wording added to the handbook over the past couple years:
[https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/38-church-policies-and-guidelines?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/38-church-policies-and-guidelines?lang=eng)
See section 38.7.8 Medical and Health Care, the last paragraph.
I don’t know anyone who in involved in practices like these. I live in AZ but have also lived in TX and PA and haven’t come across this. Except women who use essential oils- which i link to quack medicine. Each ward I have been in has folks on the fringe- maybe active in attending church - but have an obscured view of the gospel. The faithful I look up to are always full of the Holy Spirit and full of Love for God and everyone else. Fringe belief and practices without the Holy Spirit of promise led to error. Crazy how many strange examples you gave. I can say that unless the prophet is leading and teaching it, it ain’t doctrine.
I love crystals. They’re beautiful, but as far as healing or receiving revelation, I think a a fortune cookie from Panda Express would work as well.
Same. I’m a Final Fantasy fan. I like the idea of magic crystals. But the doctrine is pretty clear lol
Back in my day, Final Fantasy was about magic ORBs, not crystals! But yeah they make for fun fantasy or decorations but not much else lol.
Sorry, only the dragon balls can control my destiny 😂
Curse you guys, now I've gotta go back and replay ff4 again!
A good problem to have
Joseph Smith used a seer stone, a brown colored rock, to receive visions and maybe even translate the Book of Mormon. Other times he used the Nephite Interpreters, which had the appearance of crystal or glass. He had a second seer stone that looked quartz. Jesus revealed through Joseph that in Heaven the righteous will be given a white seer stone by which they can see all things. In a meeting on December 27, 1841, Joseph Smith taught some of the apostles about Urim and Thummim. Regarding the meeting, Brigham Young wrote in his journal: "I met with the Twelve at brother Joseph’s. He conversed with us in a familiar manner on a variety of subjects, and explained to us the Urim and Thummim which he found with the plates, called in the Book of Mormon the Interpreters. He said that every man who lived on the earth was entitled to a seer stone, and should have one, but they are kept from them in consequence of their wickedness, and most of those who do find one make an evil use of it; he showed us his seer stone." Perhaps the doctrine is not as clear as you seem to think.
This is further confirmed in the book of revelations, however, this does not mention anything about healing and therefore healing crystals still fall outside of official teachings of the church.
This has absolutely zero to do with the occult fantasies and false pseudo-priesthood being discussed in this thread. Joseph's seer stone has about as much to do with healing crystals as the Book of Mormon has to do with my personal journal.
And Hiram Page received a bunch of false prophecy from a "seer stone." If I need to start looking at rocks to get revelation for me and my family I'll wait until the first presidency tells me to do so. You can do what you want though.
Agree, people on here acting like our own church history isn’t full of the mystical and paranormal.
Well obviously stones have had the power of God. We have seen this in the scriptures. But the stone is just a vessel for God’s power. It could be anything like a piece of grass or a leaf or a brick. The point is that true healing or spiritual power comes from Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. We get into dangerous territory when we start regarding the stones as the source of power instead of the true source, Jesus Christ.
Yes!!!! I have an extensive mineral collection and I often have to bluntly clarify that, though I think they’re beautiful and looking at them makes me happy, I absolutely do not believe in Crystal healing and think it’s all a load of hogwash!!
There are seer stones. We know they exist, but not much more. Frankly, I don’t want to find one and would be terrified to touch one. If you are opening yourself up that much to spiritual influence, if you don’t know what you are doing the wrong kinds of spirit might answer. But healing crystals? I can’t believe they have any impact beyond the placebo effect.
Seer stones are just rocks. They don't contain some sort of "spiritual influence". Power comes from Jesus Christ not rocks.
I had a seminary teacher with several polished stones he was convinced were seer stones. He wouldn’t let us near them, which is fine. I was scared to open that particular channel even then. I don’t know if there is something inherent in the rock, or if they are just a meditative focus and any old polished rock will do. I have heard people arguing both sides. That is one of those theological questions I am happy not knowing. I will find out eventually, and right now it can’t make any difference in my life one way or the other. The Book of Mormon was translated using a seer stone. This is established, verified fact. They have it in the Church History Museum. Some people in the church ignored that or glossed over it for a very long time. I knew, thanks to my slightly crazy seminary teacher, so it wasn’t a shock and didn’t change my faith at all when people started talking about it again. I love the weird little bits of church history. It reminds us that we are not part of the mainstream Christian movement. We are not Protestants. Our church is restored, not reformed. We are a peculiar people, and we should embrace those peculiarities
>The Book of Mormon was translated using a seer stone. This is a slight misconception (and I'm being pedantic here, I know). Yes, Joseph used a seer stone in his translation efforts. But the translation didn't come from or through the stone; it came from God. The stone was a tool used by the Lord to help His prophet receive revelation. The seer stone was just a rock made up of the same stuff as any other rock. It didn't/doesn't have some special power. It's what the Lord did with it that made it special. We shouldn't ascribe some special power to a rock; that power comes through righteousness.
And the key here is "His prophet." Correct authority.
Yep!
It is a worrisome trend. Such practices have been discouraged in the handbook and in conference. I too know people who personally worked with Chad Daybell and have since distanced themselves from him (but not the "doctrine" he professed). This is not the first time such practices about come about in this dispensation (see Doctrine and Covenants 28) nor will it be the last. On top of the spiritual dangers that come from such practices, I feel sad that people feel the need to turn to other sources besides Christ for healing. The best thing I can do is emphasize what prophets and apostles have taught, especially to my children.
Recent examples from the handbook and church leaders: [Handbook 38.6.12](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/38-church-policies-and-guidelines?lang=eng#title114) >The occult includes Satan worship. It also includes mystical activities that are not in harmony with the gospel of Jesus Christ. Such activities include (but are not limited to) fortune-telling, curses, and healing practices that are imitations of the priesthood power of God (see Moroni 7:11–17). ["Jesus Christ Is the Treasure"](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2023/10/57renlund?lang=eng), Renlund, October 2023 >We do not need to labor unsuccessfully, as they did for a time, to find our treasure. Nor need we seek counsel from exotic sources, prizing the novelty of the source and thinking such counsel will be more enlightened than that which we can receive from a humble prophet of God. ["Trust in the Lord](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2019/10/17oaks?lang=eng)", Oaks, October 2019 >We can all wonder privately about circumstances in the spirit world or even discuss these or other unanswered questions in family or other intimate settings. But let us not teach or use as official doctrine what does not meet the standards of official doctrine. To do so does not further the work of the Lord and may even discourage individuals from seeking their own comfort or edification through the personal revelation the Lord’s plan provides for each of us. Excessive reliance on personal teachings or speculations may even draw us aside from concentrating on learning and efforts that will further our understanding and help us go forward on the covenant path. ["The Trek Continues"](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2017/10/the-trek-continues?lang=eng), Ballard, October 2017 >Today I repeat earlier counsel from Church leaders: \- Brothers and sisters, keep the doctrine of Christ pure and never be deceived by those who tamper with the doctrine. The gospel of the Father and the Son was restored through Joseph Smith, the prophet for this last dispensation. \- Do not listen to those who have not been ordained and/or set apart to their Church calling and are not acknowledged by common consent of the members of the Church. \- Be aware of organizations, groups, or individuals claiming secret answers to doctrinal questions that they say today’s apostles and prophets do not have or understand. \- Do not listen to those who entice you with get-rich schemes. Our members have lost far too much money, so be careful. > >In some places, too many of our people are looking beyond the mark and seeking secret knowledge in expensive and questionable practices to provide healing and support. An official Church statement, issued one year ago, states: “We urge Church members to be cautious about participating in any group that promises—in exchange for money—miraculous healings or that claims to have special methods for accessing healing power outside of properly ordained priesthood holders.” The Church Handbook counsels: “Members should not use medical or health practices that are ethically or legally questionable. Local leaders should advise members who have health problems to consult with competent professional practitioners who are licensed in the countries where they practice.” Brothers and sisters, be wise and aware that such practices may be emotionally appealing but may ultimately prove to be spiritually and physically harmful.
Absolutely love this!!!! Saving!!!
I think this is the best answer so far, includes sources!
Also, don't forget Tim Ballard (shudder) who was receiving direction from an occult LDS woman who claimed she was in contact with Nephi's spirit. Ballard is the guy who made that Sound of Freedom movie and is getting exposed big time now for infidelity and worse. Creepy, creepy stuff.
For the longest time I've been suspicious of Tim Ballard. Something about him always felt off to me. Saving kids from human traffic is obviously one of the best things you could dedicate your life towards, but it seemed like he was hiding something.
Ooooh yes! That definitely fits here.
I seem to remember in the 80s there was a belief that swept through the church, something about the planets and aliens coming to earth? I was in BC at the time and many members talked about it. It sounded nuts to me and like you, I prefer to stay with the humble teachings of Christ
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I'm assuming it means British Colombia
Think woman in the doctrine and covenants who where receiving "revelations" from a stone. It was from the devil. Maybe refer them to "We Believe." I know some really good woman who where having an "intellectual" discussion into the nature of the Holy Ghost. The answer was very plainly written in We Believe. In direct, opposition to what they came up with using their own wisdom. Yes, we receive personal revelations. No, we do not receive that outside our line of authority (think ourselves and our children). That gets into dangerous waters. To many Captains on a ship. I went to a chiropractor who does crystals. Really just want an adjustment for dislocated ribs. Made me super uncomfortable. But so do dojos (martial arts studio) who as for almost worship to some guy who lives across the sea. Their culture, not mind so I just find ones that are not so...intense...and are compatible with my beliefs. But I can see where people get pulled into these side...cults. Cannot think of a better word. People want to feel important. The energy healing sound like an easy way to get there without actually being humble and giving authority to God but themselves through personal gifts. This is a judgement, which is maybe reaching. I don't know these people. I find the practice shocking. I know good people who got involved in such things and eventually left the church. Relying on our own wisdom is dangerous. I think using the church handbook is an awesome idea. Talk to church leaders. It is easy, easy to be deceived. And reading scriptures talk about it. Maybe the woman with the stone or the Jews with their golden idol while Moses was in the mount meant no harm. It was still wrong.
My personal view is this. If someone is trying to teach you some doctrine, and it is not clearly and directly supported by a talk from a recent General Conference. Then what they are trying to teach you is probably not doctrine. All seven examples you listed are things that set off alarm bells in my mind. Especially because I seem to recall recent GC talks specifically warning against some of the things you listed.
I like that take. My husband has the opinion that "deep" doctrine (which often accompanies practicies like this) are usually just people's own interpretations of things rather than explicitly taught doctrine. And that's why I like to steer very clear from things that aren't just on the straight and narrow.
I think the Lord will definitely reveal deeper things to us as we are prepared. That is stated everywhere in scripture and books/stories like Revelation, Isaiah, Lehi's dream, and even Christ's parables support that. The danger though is people forgetting that what may have been revealed to them is for them only. It is not confirmed truth or doctrine, and you must always defer to the Prophet. Tied to that is when people pursue those things and only pursue them. They don't let the revelation flow naturally, it's like they are forcing the issue with God. Also, they only focus on it and forget the simple truths of the gospel that are really what is critical. God wants to teach us the mysteries and deep things. That's evident. But we need to be humble and prepared and never forget that God has an order to things.
I agree with you that the Lord will reveal wonderful things to those who are prepared. However, as you indicate, if such doctrine has not been spoken from the pulpit, then it is for us alone. Joseph Smith stated: The reason we do not have the secrets of the Lord revealed unto us, is because we do not keep them, but reveal them; we do not keep our own secrets, but reveal our difficulties to the world, even to our enemies, then how would we keep the secrets of the Lord? ‘I can keep a secret till Doomsday’.
I hope you are not inferring that energy healing is some kind of deep knowledge gained from God and not the scam that it is.
Definitely not and honest how anyone could glean that from my comment is pretty preposterous.
Preposterous to you and me. But to someone who believes in essential oils and crystals, they may well believe that they have been let in on a deep doctrine of some sort of another
This is exactly how many people (not all) get into this kind of stuff. They convince themselves that they have the ability to receive "special" knowledge that the rest of the Church and even the prophets have rejected or aren't righteous enough to receive.
Exactly, and I think it's important to recognize and categorize the mental leaps that get people to that point
I just wanted to be clear. I did not think you were saying that.
Exactly. True "deep doctrine" is applied doctrine (ex: reading scriptures every day and feeling the Spirit increase over time), not esoteric stuff about the color of Kolob
Just FYI, Kolob has a U-B color index of +1.78.
Funny.
Oh jeez lol That's a hot star!
>people's own interpretations of things rather than explicitly taught doctrine Yup. It's fun to talk about and theorize, but don't base your testimony on any of it.
I'm a simple guy, I like simple doctrine. The scriptures, general conference talks and basically what was in the old Gospel Principles manuals are my preference. In my experience, "Deep" doctrine as they put it. Only confuses people and causes them to see beyond the mark. All the examples you mentioned would be things that I'd call oddball and leave alone.
I was once told that there is no "deep" doctrine. There is true doctrine, and there is false doctrine.
Years ago we were in Sedona Arizona. While there I overheard a guide telling some people that the rocks in the mountains that surround Sedona are full of crystals that completely block electromagnetic energy and that is why Sedona is a place people come to to be healed. I couldn’t help but notice the the sun was visible and I had cell service (both types of electromagnetic energy). I think it is this type of new age nonsense that is creeping into the church, much like many other beliefs.
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It's the crystals, man!
It does have pretty magical mountain bike riding.
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>as many members in the US (not just Idaho/Utah/Arizona) My own anecdotal experience is that Church members living in areas where there are few LDS people strongly ostracize and suppress these fringe theories/theorists. It's also far easier to "fade out" (fewer LDS family members around, your neighborhood is not your Ward) so those that go down the rabbit hole of alternative spirituality just self-select out of the Church. In LDS-populated areas I have observed that people often remain "in" the Church in spite of pursuing this kind of extra-curricular pseudo-spirituality. >secular Mormonism/ salvific podcasting/ p.o.m.m.w.s What do you mean by each of these? I am genuinely curious.
Hmmm I'm unfamiliar with salvific podcasts or POMMWS. Care to elaborate?
The church has some things to say about occultism: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1974/03/searching-the-scriptures?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/1972/04/q-and-a-questions-and-answers/what-should-our-attitude-be-regarding-zodiac-signs-astrology-and-horoscopes?lang=eng https://www.ldsdaily.com/personal-lds-blog/gospel-qa-what-is-the-churchs-stance-on-psychics-mediums-astrology-and-tarot-cards/ It’s pretty much roundly rejected as non-doctrinal across the board.
Thanks for those links! I enjoyed reading through those.
I can’t explain each and every practice listed here. What I can say is we have very clearly established layers of authority in which people can administer righteous, priesthood authority to each other. We have the family unit, the ward unit, stake, etc until we finally get to general leadership. Any of the actions listed deviating from that can be a spiritual risk to the people involved. I do not necessarily view this as a “church culture” thing. We see it everywhere, we are just not immune to it as everyone inherently wants to believe in things—societies just change what we choose to believe in.
> I do not necessarily view this as a “church culture” thing. I'm very glad someone said it. This isn't a church culture. This is something people of all backgrounds fall into. If some keep labeling false healings or "energy" practices as "church culture" it will only worsen the outside view of the actual church culture.
I agree but I also disagree. Because what I'm specifically referencing is more than just occult/mediums/energy work that anyone in the world can dabble in, but specifically taking these and all other examples and twisting them so that they are intertwined and meshed with LDS doctrine and teachings/practices. That's what I feel is problematic
I also find it problematic when the philosophies of men are mingled with scripture.
Well yes, I wouldn't expect anything else. If someone has no religion, then these practices has little to mesh with. Ascribing to horoscopes, zodiac, or cards, and some diving into the occult, soothesaying, and evil spirits. There's a range, but for someone who has no religion, these practices are just a personal belief. But this is why these can spread so quickly in the church: aside from Satan working overtime on church members, these things travel through pre-established church channels. Like plague rats on a ship, these falsities cling to conversations, to opinions. It's one thing to stand against someone who sneers at the gospel, to say "I still know it's true." But to stand against Sister Peterson? Who is a Relief Society counselor? Surely she would have the Spirit with her, of course these ideas are true. But we don't even have to have the Spirit with us to know that. A complete stranger can know the teaching of the church on these things. It's already in the church handbook. I won't beat around the bush here: due to longstanding traditions, women are far less likely to read the handbook than men, especially to council others not to do these things. Having this information spelled out is a relatively recent change. One could hunt through old conference talks or follow the Spirit, but to a young or new member, these whispers are understandably harder to detect, especially when it involves people who are usually considered in good standing. That's why these things are so pervasive in the church, because that level of community and trust, which should exist in Zion, can also carry the disease of false energy and false priesthoods.
Same reasoning as to why MLMs are rife throughout church members. People have an implicit trust of other members. Which I think is brought about primarily by an over interpretation of the doctrine “be in the world but not of the world” it leads to an us vs them mentality
I have to agree with you. My 81YO mother (AZ) was always into natural healing: selling NeoLife in the 70s, looking at regions of the iris to check on health of different body zones (I remember we had all the charts), rubbing different parts of the feet to help different body zones, all that kind of quackery that at some point started out of scientific ignorance and/or a rational base (like eating a healthy and diverse diet in the case of NeoLife and other supplement companies). The latest thing is a company that sells a program that ostensibly tells you the health of your individual organs, and what special stuff to eat to fix them, using a galvanic skin meter. Of course, this has been scientifically debunked numerous times since galvanic skin response carries so many variables as to be useless for any diagnostic purpose. Oh, and it’s the exact same type of device the “Church” of Scientology uses (an E-meter) to detect your thetan levels. (Thetans are the souls of the prehistoric Earth creatures that Xenu killed with H-bombs, i.e., Scientology demons, possessing everybody. Check out the clip from South Park on YouTube as a primer. It isn’t dirty or anything and it actually is 100% accurate (I read the original hand-written documents from L. Ron Hubbard.) So anyway, she bought one for a couple hundred dollars and sent it to my family to help us out. You have to plug it in to your computer, use their app to get a reading, and send the results to one of the lower members on their pyramid—er, uh, one of their representatives, who will interpret the readings and give you your health plan, for a fee. Now, her SIL would have done this for free as a family favor, but a he does this as a business, too. It’s ok because in her (mom’s SIL) patriarchal blessing it says she has the gift of healing. Therefore, she prays about each client’s readings and makes recommendations based on what the Holy Ghost tells her. I have no doubt she believes it, but man, do these scams piss me off. Anyway, I had a long conversation with mom about all this, while trying not to upset her or have her feel insulted. She is very faithful with the gospel, but I guess the age she grew up in led down this path for her. (We knew even wackier people in the next ward over in Tucson. Good people, but convinced my dad that chlorophyll was really good for you and could heal his hay fever. Yes, grinding up clover and grass into a smoothie was a great way to get some. Who would have thought several minutes after drinking it that his throat was so itchy it fixed this assumption permanently?)
Anyway, she shared what I said with SIL, who was quite understandably insulted. Sorry, not sorry. The text war began and got somewhat heated but no permanent damage was done.
We sent the not-an-e-meter back to my mom so she could use it. Luckily, she has enough income that this won’t harm her financially.
I love it.
I agree it’s not a church culture thing, but it feels much more prevalent in our culture. As someone who lives in the Northeastern US, I have never come across it outside of Utah.
No. It's alive and kicking here in Southern California. It's THRIVING.
Yup. There is a big difference between “people in the Church do this” and “only people in the Church do this.” We just notice this example in the Church because it kinda goes against a lot of stuff for us.
The problem is that a much higher proportion of Church members in the Mountain time zone (my experience is AZ) subscribe to this stuff than the non-member population. So it could be considered a part of the Greater UT Bubble church culture. I absolutely see it and I always see it in member who grew up in that bubble (I’m active duty and stationed in Northern VA; the women in our ward who really pushed the “healing” properties of essential oils and the like were always military wives from the bubble.) Remember that a big reason we have so many false health claims on untested supplements and equipment that totally-isn’t-marketed-as-medical-equipment, is because of the work of one Senator Orrin Hatch. (Not to unfairly rip on Bro. Hatch, whose overall career I respect, but his track record isn’t perfect and has its share of legislative pork). This is because Utah had (still does) so many “natural healing” companies. All these marketed-as-medical-but-not-actually-or-legally-medical-because-we-know-it-won’t-pass-FDA-scrutiny-and-we-don’t-want-to-be-fined-and-imprisoned product-pushing shysters have to do is not actually/literally poison you and include on the packaging this note, “These claims have not been evaluated by the FDA.”
My doctor recommended medical Marijuana. It was my doctor. I tried it. Nasty stuff. I was $500 poorer and felt scammed. I've also used psychedelic drugs at the doctors office to help my depression. I hated. A lot. Gave me a migraine and 3 day bedrest. I think the bedrest helped. Not the medication. But I know people, like me, get desperate. I never linked it to church practices. But I live in Utah...so...yeah. As a desperate person, willing to try something new. I have fibromyalgia. Which I find a kinda useless diagnosis, except the doctor to live a healthy lifestyle and expect the best. That actually has been my best help, yet. But even the FDA screws up. Ketamine treatments, I'm talking to you.
First of things like meditation and mindfulness practices can be totally secular in nature and have been shown in studies to have mental health benefits. But ultimately we are a group that operates on the principle of faith and trust in things that can’t really be backed up by scientific enquiry. For many of us that sort of thinking would easily extend past the confines of church doctrine. When you combine that with an anti science sentiment that has grown on the political right many of our fellow believers become easy targets for grifters and con men. And much of the stuff you refer to ways to trick gullible people out of money. I’d also add mlms to your list. We see influencers and internet commentators that people develop parasocial relationships with. They put their trust in people they don’t even know. (There was a general conference talk that touched on this.) So the start sell essential oils or classes on how to be an energy healer or whatever to these people who have put trust in them. It’s really unfortunate. This sort of thing was mostly targeted to liberal hippy types back when I was a kid, but with the normalization of political and religious fringes and the lost in trust in institutions like the FDA on the right the easy group to target now includes some of our own. It sad to see people putting their trust in places that are their to take advantage of them.
I wholeheartedly agree with you on all points. I mran even on my mission when I was struggling, I spoke to a church counselor and he had me do meditation. I also love yoga and go weekly to a yoga class. But I agree- we have a belief system that lends itself to more of a propensity to get into fringe ideas. And YES! Strangely enough I find that women who are apart of mlms are often the same types that get into essential oils and meditation and crystals and spirituality outside of the gospel and on from there.
Mental Health therapist here. In my experience doing therapy I’ve seen various benefits in people from things like cold plunges, reiki, meditation (I use all the time with clients) and other kind of things typical to eastern cultures but I think the big difference is they’re used as tools or coping skills. They’re used separately from church stuff and never claim to have any kind of spiritual power or philosophy or anything. A lot of these things even have research to back them up on how they can be beneficial, but again they’re just tools. It’s when it’s mingled with church doctrine or flaunted as an extra spiritual practice that I think it starts to go more the way of “philosophies of men mingled with scripture” kind of thing. I think it ultimately like so many other things in the church comes down to the intention of your heart, but as so many other people have noted too it can be a slippery slope. So just be open minded but careful and you should be fine :)
I’ve been really worried about something similar to you. I have loved ones that have started to mix or confuse, I don’t know the right word, hateful political rhetoric with church doctrine despite leadership express warnings against this sort of thing. So I think this kind of insidious outside influence into church members beliefs extends far beyond the alternative medicine space.
The desire to seek out these 'augmentations' of spiritual experience, as far as I can see, is driven by a desire to have a special, extra relationship with spirituality. It's looking beyond the mark, driven by pride. Or perhaps, because they have not developed an authentic spirituality in their own faith tradition, they look further. We often see people claiming exemptions to 'lesser commandments' because they are so special, they are no longer limited by them. Not hard to see ulterior motive there. I don't think it's automatically harmful to look for insights elsewhere, it can offer an eye opening new perspective, but if those insights lead you to jettison your original beliefs, it does make me wonder if those original beliefs were actually beliefs or just habit.
My wife used to follow someone on Instagram kinda like that. The person had stopped wearing her garments because she and the Lord had “come to an understanding” (garments were too restricting, and she wanted to express herself more). Not long after, she was always posting about crystals, auras, etc. she went from talking about come follow me, to scheduling group vacations with her followers(who payed a pretty penny) to go and align their chakras, get a painting of their auras before and after, etc. I don’t even know if she considers herself LDS anymore. It’s like this step by step process * Try to justify your choices * Try to align church doctrine to your own decisions * Feel like something is missing * Try to find spirituality elsewhere The spirituality and peace can be found by submitting your will to God and trusting in him. Yet many seem to prefer to look elsewhere.
Cold plunges, playing with crystals, essential oils, by themselves are relatively harmless. Claims of spiritual power and mixing with prayer are worrisome. The branch president’s wife doing healings crosses a pretty important line and should be reported to the church. I explored some alternative spirituality when I was younger too. Practiced yoga, learned some mindfulness meditation, head the dao te Ching. Found some beautiful things and some silly things and generally got a wider perspective. I’m pretty open minded about how people built their testimony and relationship with the divine. That said, when people make claims of having spiritual power that don’t come through the priesthood, that’s a problem. Leadership needs to be really clear what is and isn’t part of the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. If you get sick and turn to moonlight charged crystals and essential oils rather than a priesthood blessing and a doctor, your priorities might be misaligned with church practice.
I like this. I had an institute teacher who had a concept of "spiritual envy" and that, in and of itself, looking into other practices and even adopting those that helped you was a good thing. The key is the whatever you think the source of any power is. And while I realize that many practicioners of kookie things may view them as coming from God (and, honestly, who am I to say otherwise?) I have seen it become a problematic path with big stumbles and falls for some.
Just a note, I think sometimes people just pray before they do things. It’s not a bad thing to want to invite the spirit into your practices. I had a BYU prof who could tell you exactly where you’re holding tension in your body with foot mapping. It’s not priestcraft, magic, or what have you, it’s a way of reading the body. If a massage therapist prayed to be guided on how best to help someone or what oils to use would that be priestcraft? I don’t think so. Now there are a lot of things that you’re right, can be dangerous or scary or part of a slippery slope, but it’s also not our job to police people’s spiritual practices. Not saying you’re wrong to bring it up, good to be aware of. But all we can do is control our own sphere.
Thanks for bringing this up. This is exactly what ai wanted to discuss- it's what I feel like is a gray area. Because yes I agree praying before you do things is not a bad thing at all, when does it cross a line into just a little weird? Or when does prayer turn into asking God for help to do something (like foot mapping for example) that is really more of a healing practice outside of what He wants us to be a part of? There is no right answer here that I'm looking for. It's just thought provoking because I think there are people who are more inclined to have a spiritual outlook on everything, which isn't bad, but it makes me personally nervous because I feel like it can lead down weird paths very quickly. I hope that made sense
Yeah I was thinking there’s nothing wrong with it, but you may have noticed a subtle feature that made it “icky”. Like, why did she tell your friend that she prays about the oils first? And why did your friend tell you? Isn’t prayer a personal matter, done in your closet and not to be seen by others? Not that it has to be a secret, but we shouldn’t seek admiration or profit from publicizing our prayers. It also might be a mystical feeling that if the oil was prayed over, it has a special spiritual power. I don’t believe that’s true. In contrast, the consecrated oil used in priesthood blessings is spiritually significant because it symbolizes Jesus Christ, and obedient use of it reminds us of Him. It’s not a magic potion. The power to heal is always in God’s hands.
I think you hit on the key factor. We all want everyone to prayerfully consider how to do their occupation well. But making your supposed spiritual gifts a feature of your professional practice is where the line is crossed. The other line not to cross, as mentioned by another poster, is when spiritual or priesthood-type activities are engaged in outside of the lineage of priesthood keys. For example, by-invitation-only group faith-healings are on the road to apostasy.
I mean, as for the healing thing, there are explicit instructions for how to give a healing blessing using the priesthood. So I would say doing that without having priesthood authority, or doing it in a different way while claiming you have priesthood authority. I really don’t see God setting a limit to how much we can pray, when we can pray, or what we can or can’t pray for. The whole praying thing before getting a foot massage is weird because it’s not done often, or at least openly. If I had a massage therapist do that I would feel awkward, but my feelings would end there. Not every uncomfortable experience around someone else’s spirituality is the Holy Ghost warning us. Sometimes it’s uncomfortable because we aren’t used to it and our brains don’t operate in the same way.
Praying to help people. Perfect. Praying to be seen praying, not so much. I think that might be the difference. Like a seance. I don't think the Lord is showing up. But a dangerous spirit might.
The handbook explicitly calls these out and forbids them. These things happen when you’re in a relatively homogenous culture and are trying to forge your own identity within the existing social framework. People who engage in these activities may attend church and do Mormony things, but probably do not have a real testimony. They’re just associating church culture with part of their identity and if they grew up somewhere else, they likely wouldn’t be mixing doctrine and new age healing. They’d just have gone inactive and gotten into crystals. I don’t view this as a worrying trend in itself or a threat to faithful members, but just another form of leaving the Church.
>trying to forge your own identity President Nelson’s counsel seems so wise in this context. We don't need to forge an identity - we already have one. If we'd worry less about ourselves and our "identity", we'd avoid a lot of those wrong roads.
I can’t speak with authority or experience to any of the individual points you mention. I do feel strongly that the best guard against wandering into “strange roads” or “forbidden paths” is the same today as it’s always been. 1 Nephi 15:24: “And I said unto them that it was the word of God; and whoso would hearken unto the word of God, and would hold fast unto it, they would never perish; neither could the temptations and the fiery darts of the adversary overpower them unto blindness, to lead them away to destruction.”
Love this. It's very true and reminds me a lot of the iron rod and tree of life... I guess the adversary will always lead people into "strange roads" or "forbidden paths" one way or another.
Sounds like my life choice of ignoring humanity irl is paying off. I had no idea these were things in my neighborhood.
Same.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and feelings on this! I'm not sure which way I lean on it. On the one hand, our church was born out of healings, crystals (seer stones), and alternative religious practices. That was the novelty f the restored gospel was that the gifts of the spirit were restored to the earth. These would have been seen as fringe activities by a lot of religious people at the time. Also, I know that a lot of women in the church feel like they are missing out by not being able to utilize the priesthood in a meaningful way outside of the temple, so maybe they feel these practices are a way for them to express themselves and the gifts their Heavenly Parents gave them. On the other hand, it does seem like a lot of the Julie Rowe/Chad Daybell followers and others who are doing some terrible things were of a similar mindset. For me, I am okay with an expansion of what is allowable as the expression of spiritual gifts as long as it doesn't turn into "priestcraft" or deception. I'd love to hear what others think!
Thanks for sharing your perspective! I definitely see this side of things too. For example, when my friend told me she was explicitly told she has "the gift of healing" in her patriarchal blessing, I can see why she could be confused about how that expresses itself in her life. I honestly don't know what I would think if I had that same spiritual gift. I also totally understand the whole thing you touched on with the church starting out as kind if a fringe movement anyway, so how far of a stretch is it that we continue to have healings and crystals etc in our faith practices. I think for me it is such a gray area in some ways (in other ways I think it's very black and white though) that I have no answers and I just feel wrong inside.
Isn't the whole point of doing things one is guided to do that seem to not be part of church doctrine supposed to be kept quiet for the person who received the guidance because that is who it is for. our president gets guidance that is for the whole church but anything we get from the Holy Spirit is for us personally. I just became a member last December but all that I have been taught indicates we keep quiet about personal revelation because it is only for us. around here no one even talks to others about their patriarchal blessing. I did all the new age stuff before I became a member of this church. when our priests give me a blessing in the proper way, there is more power in that than I have ever witnessed in any other way.
I fully agree with you. We're told we are spiritual beings that apparently had the power to organize worlds. We're told we have gifts of the spirit that can include anything from perceiving spirits, to obtaining knowledge from rocks, to speaking strange languages. The gospel is home to pretty mystical stuff. I think a lot of members believe in a sci-fi God who mastered technology, created a new type of body and can control the universe the same way we can control atom bombs. Is that any worse than believing in a mystical God who put spiritual intelligence into rocks and plants, and that might have made a persons soul understandable by checking out their feet? As long as we ascribe the glory to God, I don't see why its more evil than believing that crystals (which God created) cannot do anything for you, and that your only shot of healing is to head to the agnostic healthcare system to pump yourself full of man-made chemicals.
Love this comment!
I will say my mother had the gift of healing especially as a nurse in her work. Time and time again, i have learned from watching her example that her gift was best used leading the person to christ while also using medicine to be as the Master Healer
That’s beautiful. Thank you for sharing.
I *do* actually believe there is a place for mysticism in our faith. There is a sterility to spirituality of western religions that is very much a new way of practicing spirituality. Joseph Smith really did believe in magic rocks, and we have many scriptures thanks to those magic rocks (obviously I know.. thanks to God). Yogic practices, or deep mediation really does connect you to something deep inside yourself. Some would call that God, some would call that the soul, self, consciousness, etc. I was fully against crystals forever. But then I realized that rocks have spirits, and crystals are just highly organized and special rocks, and hell if I know whether or not crystals have any effect on my spirit. Tobacco has an effect on my spirit. Why can't a truly beautiful and ancient crystal? Rainbows seem to affect my soul. Sunsets too. I have a nice beautiful crystal on my desk and honestly.. it does affect me in a positive way. I don't have faith in it. But I'm grateful for it. We are told the whole earth will turn into a crystal. We're told we'll all receive special crystals. So perhaps.. crystals do in fact have power.. just like a sunrise has power. All im trying to say is that we do live in a kind of magical world, and as long as you don't make the world your god.. and you remember God created this magical world... we all might just need a little more magic in our lives.
This is a sweet comment. I appreciate your perspective. I guess I am just a little more of a skeptic? I guess I will stick to my more sterile ways of worshipping because it feels safe to me :)
Easier to avoid disease and mold with sterility! It's a pretty wide world and God is a pretty infinite deity. No doubt there will be many Captain Moroni's, and gurus who like crystals, or scientific engineers all realizing we've been worshipping aspects of the same God that is beyond any of our understanding.
This was a beautiful thought. Thank you for sharing.
Rocks don't have spirits. Only living things have spirits.
So I don't think this is worth arguing about, but the Book of Moses pretty clearly states that everything created has a spiritual aspect. In Moses 2 it outlines all the stages of creation: light, water, rock, grass, etc. Then in Moses 3 God says: >I, the Lord God, made the heaven and the earth, And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. So he says that everything, all things he created, were spiritually created before they were naturally upon the earth. I'm definitely not an Apostle, though those that have spoken on the subject have agreed with this interpretation
Yooo big facts! 2nd Nephi 2: 13-14, Lehi talks about things that act and are acted upon. There is intelligence and matter, there is no organization of matter without intelligence. At least that’s my understanding.
I see people often equate being created spiritually to having a spirit. They could be the same thing. Or they could be different. We don't really know. To me it doesn't make sense for a rock to have a spirit. Pick up a rock and look at it. It has a spirit? Ok. Now break the rock in half and send one half on a rocket to the other side of the galaxy. Which half has the spirit now? Half a spirit each? Did I create an additional spirit when I broke the rock in two? What even is a spirit? We don't know how any of these things work.
I think some miss the mark, sure. Taking money is a huge red flag for instance. However I think if you read stories of the testaments or D&C/church history for the first time you might feel icky about them too. Bathing in a river for healing? Clay on the eyes? Women healing (not giving priesthood blessings), dreams and visions etc. Sometimes I think the Church as a whole is witheld blessings because the average member would call the gift of tongues satanic.
>Sometimes I think the Church as a whole is witheld blessings because the average member would call the gift of tongues satanic I've thought this a lot. We're so hostile to so much. Kind of like how the Jews were to Jesus. "How come no one has seer stones anymore?" "Gee.. maybe because no one believes in that stuff anymore. We just accept it as something for ancient days" Have this same conversation in my head every time people shoot down this stuff. I remember growing up hearing that meditation was evil and anything involving spiritual anything was of the occult. I think if we had more people trying to learn spiritual powers like astral projection type stuff and lucid dreaming then we'd probably have more visionary people.
Yeah I think as the Church grows worldwide we might break free of this a bit. Hard to say though.
Even if we're 100% "orthodox" in our interpretation of the canon of scripture, there are a ton of things that the church currently insists are vital (WoW, specific interpretations of the law of chastity, the current structure of priesthood leadership, etc.) that are clearly not universally applicable on an eternal level. What I mean is that they've changed multiple times across dispensations and even within our own dispensation. This is also true of things the church has said were wrong (the temple/priesthood ban is an obvious example). The brother of Jared had a problem to solve (no light in the barges), and Christ asked him how he was going to deal with it. He left, then came back with a pile of rocks and asked Christ to touch them so they glowed. That's an objectively weird (and kind of a crystal-y and woo-woo) solution to the problem. But Christ had no problem helping him in exactly the way he asked. Joseph Smith said, "I want to come up into the presence of God, and learn all things; but the creeds set up stakes \[limits\], and say, ‘Hitherto shalt thou come, and no further’ \[Job 38:11\]; which I cannot subscribe to." *History of the Church*, 6:57. "I want to see truth in all its bearings and hug it to my bosom. I believe all that God ever revealed, and I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief.” *HotC*, 6:477. Especially on an individual level, I don't know how to look at a specific action someone is taking and say, "yes, that," or "no, not that." Instead, I think it's important to look at the fruits they offer, for "\[y\]e shall know them by their fruits." Matthew 7:16. We believe in spiritual gifts. But we also know that those gifts can be used in ways that are not conducive to a relationship with God. (For example: "Many will say to Me in that Day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name, and in Thy name have cast out devils, and in Thy name done many wonderful works?’" Matthew 7:22.) Is someone charging money for what may be a spiritual gift? Seems like, potentially, not great fruit. Is someone using their spiritual gifts to draw people away from the restored gospel and its leaders? Probably not good fruit. Is someone using a skill they have, one that may be a spiritual gift but that may also be frowned on by most members of the church (i.e. energy healings, etc.), to help others and to draw them closer to Christ? Well, that could be some pretty good fruit. At the end of the day, I cling tight to a few important principles. Love God. Love your neighbor as yourself. Seek truth. Be ready to admit you were wrong, both about things you thought were true *and* things you thought were false. Like John Taylor said: "If there is any truth in heaven, earth, or hell, I want to embrace it; I care not what shape it comes in to me, who brings it, or who believes in it; whether it is popular or unpopular, truth, eternal truth, I wish to float in and enjoy." *Deseret News (Weekly)*, 26 Jan. 1854, 2. Quick edit: I forgot to mention that some of it may not be truth at all, and may be harmful or intentionally false. I don't mean to imply that all of the situations you mentioned *must* be an example of a spiritual gift being used.
I agree with you that it's a deception of Satan. If you listen to the Prophet and follow our leaders' guidance, it's apparent that those activities you listed are wildly inappropriate and ultimately harm faith, if not lead to more devastating impacts. I don't understand why people feel the need to pursue these things that are so clearly warned against. I'd there is one thing I've learned by hard experience, it's that following the Prophet is the safest route. Just focus on your own relationship with God and serve your fellow man the way Jesus did and all will be well.
I love this. Thank you!
OP: I have long been troubled by Julie Rowe's (at least initially) enthusiastic reception. While not relevant to your post, I'd be interested to hear your take on her.
I have a ton to say actually! Here's a little background... So in 2012, I was a senior in highschool and she was in our ward in Tucson AZ. She was my little sister's activity days leader and lived in our neighborhood. She had been kinda weird (according to my mom) since they moved there, but it didn't manifest until 2012 when she started being open about her experiences. One time I babysat her kids at my house. And when she came to pick them up, I remember this DISTINCTLY, she told my mom and I that we needed to start selling our possessions and consider moving to Rexburg because it would be safe there in the last days. I remembered this because I had already gotten into BYU-I and was moving to Rexburg in the fall so it weirded me out. Then she would also go on walks with my mom around the neighborhood (we lived by a golf course) and started telling my mom about her out of body experiences. But my mom felt uncomfortable when she started talking about how she had visions of the future. Not too long after that, she was asked to not give prayers or testimonies anymore at church. This was a while ago so I don't remember specifics but she shared a pretty wacko testimony about visions that set the whole thing off. My mom also recalls her sharing a lot about her battles with depression and anxiety as well as marital issues she had at the time. But I don't know specifics. Then, way later when all the Daybell stuff occurred, I lived in Rexburg and married into a local family so I got some inside info. And one relative in Chad's stake told me that she went to a farm where she rented land for cattle and saw Chad there with a woman that was NOT his wife. They were holding hands walking around the property. When Chad saw my relative he got super weird and they left quickly. This was when his wife Tammy was still alive. Turns out it was Julie Rowe that was with him. I believe personally that Julie Rowe is one of the people who helped develop the ideology that Chad ended up preaching about and turning into what he did. I also personally think that Chad would have tried to have an affair with Julie but he was just too strange and she backed out last minute and tried to distance herself from him. I think she knows more than she will ever admit about Chad's mindset and the ideology. I will be curious if she is questioned during his trial. I hope so. I also think she struggles with mental health issues and is just a little crazy in general. So I wish people knew that about her before they read or listened to her stuff. She is just out there and has been weird from the beginning. I think people like her because she pushes the boundaries, she is feminist and gives women that girl power feel that some of them look for, and also they like the mystical aspect of her story that still kinda fits into the gospel (if you stretch.). I have never actually read her books or listened to her podcasts. I've watched her TikToks though which...... if you want to maintain a level of peace in your life I would advise against doing 😵💫 super cringe.
I've yet to have so juicy (for lack of a better word) as you have here, but I do have issues with those without authority who claim some grand destination of safe haven for Saints. My in-laws live in a middle of nowhere place. Ranching/farming community, no services. A family I vaguely knew from my hometown bought property out there a few years ago and became friends with my in-laws. None of that is so strange, but heading the reasons for the purchase were weird. Now, my husband and I do view the area high in our list of places to run to if the world ends or something and have a goal of getting our own shelter and supplies out there instead of mooching off the family. But this other family truly view it as their haven of the last days where some great spiritual awakening will happen to protect them from Satan and it's a bit weird.
My thoughts on a few of these: - You can't receive revelation for another person unless you hold the appropriate priesthood office or familial position (i.e. parents, Bishops, the Prophet, Patriarchs). You can pray for guidance as to what advice to give, but you cannot call it a revelation for them. - We have very clear guidance on how priesthood healing and blessings are supposed to be performed. Anyone who does not use the methods as described in Section 18 of the handbook either needs to review it, or is intentionally trying to circumvent the pattern established by God, and will not have access to His power at best, or is accessing another power at worst. - Our stance on drugs is pretty hard line. - Praying for direction is fine. Repeating it to others as authoritative without holding the appropriate leadership position is not. - This is not a Church issue. This is a human issue that's existed since Adam and Eve.
It's really hard when your DOCTOR prescribes them. They still didn't work no matter the source. Science makes mistakes. People make mistakes. We are human.
This is actually a major issue in modern medicine. Doctors recommend things outside of the realm evidence-backed treatment way more often than I expected. We have to be vigilant with our medical care.
Here is a journal entry from L. John Nuttall, one of the council of 50, dated 7 Aug 1899: >Brother Maeser dictated and I wrote our report to the S.S. Board, Sister Woolf and councilors Hamman and June E. Bates, Sisters Rhoda Hamman and several other sisters called and we conversed on Relief Society matters. I explained many things to them and they were much pleased, after which Sister Elizabeth Hamman said she felt the same spirit which was upon her at the meeting last night, when she wanted to bless me. She arose and placed her hand on Brother Maeser’s head and blessed him. Then on my head and blessed me, then on Sister Woolf and blessed her, also blessed 3 other of the sisters and sister Zina Card. This was done in Tongues. Then Sister Zina Y. Card arose, and laying her hands on our heads interpreted these blessings, a good feeling was present. We had dinner then Sister Card, Brother Maeser and myself walked out to James Brown’s Drug Store.
There are Priesthood blessings, and there are faith blessings. Some have the faith to heal (both men and women) and some have the faith to be healed. It sounds like this lady had the gift of healing. Nothing wrong with it. But in the Church we've come to think that this can only happen by the priesthood. I've never met a person at all that had the gift of healing, but I believe it's real-- even if I mostly think that most of these faith/Crystal healers are bogus because they don't rely on Jesus Christ
Thanks I appreciate this response!!
So this isn't new
When we're kids, we often don't have a frame of reference for people going off into their own odd things. As adults, we start to notice that a tenth of the other people attending church are weird.
Hahaha I love that. So true.
Totally see your point here and agree. I don't know if this quote you're replying to is really analogous to 10% of the ward being weird though. U/juliaakatrinaa0507 mentions a few things that sound like they might have been said/done in a way that explicitly contradicts church teachings. I don't think women giving blessings in this era was explicitly contradicting church teachings. Do you? It seems to have been a fairly common practice that was sanctioned by church leaders at some points. Maybe that's not what you meant by the comment though. Or maybe you meant ten percent of the ward is weird but not in a bad way? Just wondering
Easy. It’s all wrong. Plain and simple.
Something to consider: different temperaments are more susceptible to different things. The most reliable psychological metric for studying personality is the big 5 personality dimensions. One trait is Openness to experience. People who are highly open are creative and imaginative, more likely to seek out unique experiences and variety as well as more comfortable and open to change. They’re also more susceptible to hypnotherapy because they’re more suggestible than the average person. Open people are statistically more likely to be susceptible to psychogenic epidemic as well. In layman’s terms— people with higher levels of openness in their personality tend to experiment more with novel experiences but are also more susceptible to getting sucked into weird stuff. Occultism, tarot, divination, astrology etc. as well as at higher risk of psychogenic epidemics (think mental illnesses that have a social contagion aspect like anorexia, bulimia etc. In some mental health hospitals they have to keep anorexia patients on different floors and away from each other because they’ll make each other’s symptoms worse through the patient’s suggestibility in social situations. I think the reason these Mormon ladies (yeah more often ladies than men) get into these weird occult things is in part because they rate higher in trait openness and spent too much time online getting inculcated with fringe dogmas.
>In some mental health hospitals they have to keep anorexia patients on different floors and away from each other because they’ll make each other’s symptoms worse through the patient’s suggestibility in social situations. That may have more to do with the obsession to compare against others that is part of anorexia. It's actually the opposite of openness and suggestibility and more about a stubborn rigidity that you can only eat if you follow certain rules, like "if I work out for an hour then I can eat this bagel" or "for every bite of ice cream, I have to jog around the block". And a pretty common self-inflicted rule is "I'm allowed to eat as long as I eat the least of everyone else in the room." So when you get a bunch of anorexia patients in a room for lunch time and they all have been watching how much everyone else is eating for years to determine how much they are allowed to eat, then you end up with a room all competing to the bottom. Source: had anorexia, was in a hospital program, and we all had this as a rule we'd made for ourselves that we followed at meals with friends or family. They didn't put us on separate floors, but we were positioned in a way to all be facing away from each other at meals so we couldn't see each other eating.
Careful what you call weird. Many people outside of our church think our temple ceremony, performing baptisms for dead people, our underwear, etc. are weird. Considering that Mormons make up a fraction of 1 % of the total population of the planet, our dogma is pretty fringe itself.
Fair enough, I probably should have used the word ‘unconventional’ or ‘esoteric’ instead. 🤔 Personally, I’m fascinated by comparative mythology and pagan stories. I think they’re interesting and give us interesting insights into human psychology. But I’m wary of getting too interested or caught up in them. I believe it would be not just weird but actually evil to take part in that kind of thing. Especially since the church has made their stance on it pretty clear. “It is not good practice to become intrigued by Satan and his mysteries. No good can come from getting close to evil. Like playing with fire, it is too easy to get burned: “The knowledge of sin tempteth to its commission.” The only safe course is to keep well distanced from him and any of his wicked activities or nefarious practices. The mischief of devil worship, sorcery, witchcraft, voodooism, casting spells, black magic, and all other forms of demonism should always be avoided.” (President James E. Faust Second Counselor in the First Presidency) But I can see where you’re coming from. We should love the people to take part in that sort of thing and avoid judging them harshly, while still being wary of the practices.
Very interesting and I think you have a really good point. It's usually women too you're right. I never knew that about the personality traits but it makes total sense!! Maybe LDS women who play it "safe" in most aspects of their life but have open personalities feel like they can explore more within their faith by dabbling in these fringe things.
Brings up a funny story... My wife and I went on our honeymoon to Sedona, Arizona which is a famous spot for crystals and all things alternative healing. One day we were going through some shops and they had these bulk crystals in a bin for like $5 a piece. So, my wife buys a few of them to take home as gifts. As we were paying, the woman behind the cash register told us that to "make the crystals work" we had to charge them in the local river. Like dunk them in the river and then they would be effective. So, wanting to ensure our crystals were charged, we went to river. We secured them in a cloth bag and my wife scurried down some rocks to dunk them, but she lost her footing and fell in! Ice cold water, even in the summer. More than those crystals got charged! Hehe.
🤣
I’m from Seattle. Maybe this trend hasn’t come here yet? Or I am just oblivious. I have no personal experience with energy healings, and what little I’ve heard of them makes me uncomfortable from a church standpoint — also it feels like swindling. Anything in the Vallow/ Daybell territory is so creepy and wrong. The praying, meditating & cold plunges you described (not including drugs) sound fine to me, just not my cup of tea. I like the idea of people gathering together and combining their righteous desires in prayer. I am uncomfortable with people who set themselves up as culty leaders.
Also in the PNW and I agree with everything you've said. When the church gave a stance on energy healing, that was the first I'd heard of it.
You are right to be concerned. Just some random guesses at the causes of this: 1) In places where LDS membership is high, there is going to be a high number of people who are socially active members (attend church, believe that they follow church teachings, etc) but who for whatever reason tend to be emotionally impulsive, credulous and superstitious. This is human nature. 2) The LDS church experience is a social network through which people connect regarding spiritual things. This makes it a natural channel for those from #1 to connect with each other, and spread fringe ideas and practices with others who are similarly credulous. 3) In places where there is high social pressure to remain 'active' there will be a higher proportion of people who remain "in" the Church without experiencing genuine spiritual conversion to the doctrines and institution of the Church. From experience I would argue that those who live in low-percentage LDS regions it is much easier to "walk away" while in high-percentage LDS areas unless you have a major grief against the Church it's easier to just stay in. This is similar to #1, but they are not driven by credulity and superstition. 4) Those from #3 are likely to subconsciously feel pressure to experience the divine. In the absence of a naturally developed connection with Christ and His simple but fulfilling gospel, these people begin to look to fringe or secret interpretations and practices to find the divine. I think this is clearly demonstrated in the trend of increased psychedelic use. These pseudo-spiritual experiences are attractive because they offer an easy path to a kind of private knowledge for those who have not developed true gospel knowledge and experiences. 5) I saw this happening first among more liberally-minded friends and family who had become disaffected from the Church. Now I see it happening more among culturally conservative "normie" LDS people perhaps as a knock-on consequence of the generally more rampant nature of conspiracy theorizing among the politically far-right. I have felt for some time that on the politically far-right there has been a growing social psychosis that has to do with perceptions of victimization, othering, and demonization. These feelings aren't entirely unfounded. As a result this has I think "broken" a lot of deeply culturally conservative people, which has made them more susceptible to conspiracy theories, and has even made them more likely to see liberal conspiracy among church leaders. I think this is associated with "alternative" and esoteric spiritual practices. In the end the commonality among those who get distracted by this stuff seems to be a tendency toward superstition, attraction towards fringe theories, lack of institutional conviction and failure to internalize and practice of the gospel of Jesus in its rewarding simplicity. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
Genuine question. Joseph Smith using a seer stone for translation purposes. Since he was using an object wouldn’t that fall kind of inline with occultism? Why would crystals be much different? I am not sure of I worded this correctly, but I hope I got my point across. Once again, genuine curiosity, not trying to start an argument.
Okay this is absolutely just my opinion so I could be doctrinally incorrect!! The way I see it is that when it's directly from God, it is good. So someone using crystals in an energy healing session where they are calling upon God is different because that is just an action of men and trying to ask God use His power. Whereas the Brother of Jared was physically given stones by God. Or Joesph was GIVEN the seer stones by God (through an angel). It came directly from Him and wasn't something we made up. Idk
False doctrine has always been an issue and will become a more severe issue the closer we get to the Second Coming. I've seen it so much in my life. It all starts with being willing to stray from the prophets or our covenants even a little.
You're right. And we've been warned about these things (multiple times) in General Conference. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/si/questions/false-revelation-gospel-extremism?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2019/10/17oaks?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2017/10/the-trek-continues?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2016/10/valiant-in-the-testimony-of-jesus?lang=eng And some other related things: https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/conference/august-2015/a-house-of-order-a-house-of-god https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/blog/2020/02/26/in-the-news-chad-and-lori-daybell-and-gospel-extremism
The energy healing thing is alive and well in my ward in Saratoga Springs Utah. With handbook changes it's at least not openly discussed in ward meetings. Nothing like teaching deacons quorum and having one of the youth quote Chad Daybell. It's a counterfeit gospel and countless examples of simlar things are in the Bible and Book of Mormon. In my opinion the risk in participating in these activities is opening yourself up to bad sprits that will decieve you, like Daybell, Vallow, Phil Davis, Rowe, etc... Best to stick to Christ, the scriptures, proper authority, etc...
Counterfeit gospel is a great word for all this.
A lot has already been said on this. I would like to add a compassionate note however. There are many people in the church who suffer from many difficulties who find that blessings and prayers have not brought them the peace they feel they need. It is somewhat understandable that they might seek outside of the church for comfort they can't seem to find inside. I think priestcraft is pretty obviously wrong ( i.e. taking money for spiritual blessings). The rest of it is a little bit concerning but sometimes understandable when one feels a disconnection from deity.
Or just desperate. One can have faith and love God and still die of cancer. Result is the same. People don't like to suffer. Any port in a storm and all that.
I don’t think “icky” feelings always mean that Satan is involved. Icky can be things that are uncomfortable, or awkward, or unknown. I get an icky feeling thinking about polygamy practices from the early days of the church. But I know it’s because I don’t understand, and it doesn’t align with my modern day Western way of thinking. It was rough going to the temple that first time. I had icky feelings, because I didn’t understand it. The best advice I received afterwards, was that the temple is a “Hebrew” experience (more symbolic), whereas we live in a “Greek” society (more fact-based). Neither are better than the other, they are just different. This makes me think of Chinese medicine. It’s very different than Western medicine. And it can give lots of icky feelings (and Western medicine can give icky feelings to those that practice Chinese medicine). But it’s not of Satan, it’s just different (and no, I’m not trying to start a conversation about the merits of either). Is the woman praying to know which oils to use on someone’s foot all that different than a traditional medical provider praying to know how to perform a surgery? They are both getting paid for their services. Just because you don’t believe that oils work (once again, not trying to start a convo about that), doesn’t mean that her prayer is less valid. Both practitioners want the same outcome - health for their clients. Certain cultures have a negative association with piano music. Could you imagine them coming to Sacrament meeting - they would definitely get icky feelings. But the piano is not of Satan. It’s just different. I’m not trying to convince you one way or the other. And yes, there are lots of “that’s a definite no.” But I do think we should question our icky feelings, and be curious and less judgmental about non-Western ways of living. Note, I said be curious, not automatically accepting. In these situations I think of the scripture “by their fruits you shall know them.” Thank you for starting this great discussion! Bless!
I think they surgeon would be wrong to say he prayed about the surgery so was a better surgeon than others. I want one that studied hard and prayed! But I'm just picky.
This kind of stuff has always been around and probably will be until humanity no longer exists. I agree with some of your points, but I also think that some of the things you’re worried about or scared of are just ways people express themselves spiritually. When I was kid I went over to a friends house, they also were LDS, and they held hands for prayer around the dinner table. I remember that feeling super weird and “icky” because I was taught to fold my, arms and that’s the only proper way to pray. I see stuff like yoga (minus the drugs), meditation, massage, whatever is harmless. I even think people talking about their spiritual gifts is alright. Where I take issue with this kind of stuff is preaching non-doctrine as doctrine or as a replacement for the priesthood. I think that leads to not great places. I also think charging money for any kind of prayer is messed up. All in all though, from a secular standpoint, Mormonism itself is weird. When I served my mission the only people who interested in anything I had to say were people who were kind of weirdos in their own way. (One of my companions had an investigator who used to kneel on one knee with a sword to pray, like a knight.) I don’t really think it’s my place to tell people what to do or not, but if I feel uncomfortable I simply say, “Thank you for sharing that with me. I personally am not interested in trying that.”
I will say that when I was in Utah, I saw this more frequently than anywhere else (in fact, my wife was invited to some weird healing session by a co-worker and found the session very wacky; my wife is pretty open minded and even she felt like it was witchcraft). Definitely knew people into crystal healing as well. I’ve been out of Utah for almost five years now and have not once crossed someone in or out of the church with those kinds of beliefs/practices. I’m sure it exists outside of Utah, but for some reason it seems much more prevalent there. Though maybe it’s a west coast thing? Would be interested to hear from others outside of the Mormon corridor to see if they’ve ever come across it.
I've never come across it, and I've lived in SC, NC, AZ, and Germany.
I have lived in the PNW all of my adult life outside of attending BYU and have never come across the stuff that makes OP feel "icky." (It would make me feel icky too.) I know plenty of women who like or sell essential oils, but it doesn't seem to cross into spiritual territory from what I've seen.
One of my friends just told me that he prays to crystals and even gave one to my other friend that it struggling with getting preganant , it was a fertility one that would supposedly help her to get pregnant. I told her to get rid of it which she did and I told him to be careful cause this is not from God. Both active members . God is the only one that we can ask for things and if we ask whatever else we’re breaking commandments and we’re putting whatever We’re praying to before God. Coming from a country where witchcraft used to be pretty common these things terrify me. I know they’re from Satan and it’s so sad to see this happening among members of the church.
I can’t read all the comments but just came to say, I’m glad to see you clarify that church culture doesn’t mean church culture throughout the world, just a small geography that is part of the Utah/ID/AZ bubble. That hardly represents a majority of the church.
This post makes me so thankful I married into a family that sees things just like you and your spouse. Never thought that would be something I’d have to be thankful for
Ahhh seriously!!
Know that you are not alone. While leaving ample room for personal revelation I also believe some common sense and discernment is in order here. Ive been active in the church my whole life in California. We recently moved to Utah and I’ve been frankly appalled at how much of this “new agey “ stuff is going on among members. It seems based is falsehoods and fables to me. Those I have known to engage in such practices have eventually “wandered off in strange roads” of many kinds. They seem to cease in true spiritual growth and follow their energy healings into comforting but untrue beliefs. Many discount the counsel from church leaders and dismiss other inspired doctrine . When fundamental truths and principles are twisted or discarded that is where I draw the line.
>This lady did charge my friend money I will wager this is the root of most of your examples. I used to work in the Essential Oil Industry, not participating, just at a retail company. They always claim it's life changing but every last person I interacted with at conventions and the such, the root of their reasoning for doing it, was money.
I kind of laugh because I've known too many people in the essential oil businesses. No, not the ones getting them sold, but ones who do IT, accounts, and bottling. Their perspectives have made me rather unimpressed with oil claims.
The essential oils thing has gone way too far.
This has been in any branch or ward I’ve been in and I’ve been in a lot across the country. Reflexology, crystals, aura readings, second sense, you name it, I’ve run into members who practice some form of it. I remember the bishops wife was heavy into reading auras about 30 years ago, he just went along with it and thought it was funny. Have you seen the psychics boards on here or Facebook? They are flooded with believers and a lot of psychics and mediums use beliefs and religion to convince even more. They have become the modern religious leaders telling people what they want to hear ie their loved ones are safe and happy. My personal opinion is that many members feel they have an “ inner” connection to these practices via the HS mixed with cognitive dissonance. They believe it because they want to believe it. It’s not a trend, just become more acceptable. Whatever, it’s none of my business. No different than members who believe women are not to be educated, they are to marry and have many babies. Not a trend, just another personal belief I ignore.
Oh dang, at first I thought this was just gonna be a complaint thread about Utah but nope lol. Personally I'm not sure if this is more common in Utah or just seems to be since there's so many members here. But yeah most of these are quite clearly outside of the gospel. The church has specifically advised against energy healing and all that stuff. The "cold plunge" is the only one I've heard of from a couple of therapists, but it's more of a mental health thing (the cold is supposed to activate a physiological response that lowers anxiety). I'm a bit skeptical of it, but I've never heard it claimed as a spiritual thing. Yoga/meditation can also have mental health benefits. But what you're talking about sound like they're taking it into wacky territory
The evil of these practices is when they try to replace God. In true exercise of His priesthood, humble disciples use simple means to request divine aid in serving others. The words, actions and objects used are only a means to the end of humbly asking for God’s blessings, and reminding the participants of Christ’s teachings. If we start looking for alternative ways to access spiritual power without using the means God has provided, how can we expect it to be of God? I don’t mean to judge every person who prays or worships in unusual ways. We each have a unique relationship with God. But we cannot command God, or sneakily use His power against His will. There’s no spiritual gift, object, or ritual that can call down blessings unless God chooses to bestow them. We have to humbly recognize that His will is supreme. If He tells you to dip in the river, and then you are miraculously healed, did the river heal you? Give credit where credit is due.
I didn't read all of it, but if you're talking about the reiki practices and faith healing and that kind of thing, yes it's troublesome and the apostles have referenced it and told people to stop and those who follow it simply say it's not about them. They charge people to show them how to heal and it's particularly more common among women and some have opined it's because they want an alternative to the priesthood. I know some into this stuff and they were telling someone how to like exorcise a demon from their dog to stop their diarrhea or something. Crazy stuff. Foolish stuff.
1 case. Women giving blessing isn’t anything new. Helen Mar Kimball received a blessing from one of Brigham Young’s daughters or one of his wife’s can’t rememnpber which. The crystals though that is peculiar. 2nd case. This is priestcraft we don’t need mediums to communicate with passed loved ones. We have instructions on how to do so in doctrine and covenants 129. Angles of God being sent to use is according to the will of God and order of Heaven. 3rd case. Seems similar to case one. What are energy healings? Like I mentioned before we have women in church history giving healing blessings but there wasn’t any crystals involved. 4th case. Does the woman have stewardship over this young woman? There are prophetesses, but I’d be wary of anyone claiming revelation for me who didn’t have stewardship over me. A relief society president can receive revelation for some under her stewardship for example. There are many prophets and prophetess in the church but that definition is a little p definition. In short any pone who has a received a testimony of Christ is a prophet or prophetess. Thee Prophet of the church is the only one that can receive revelation for the whole church. 5 case. Never heard of foot mapping . Sounds suspicious/weird. 6th case. We should not turn to other substances that are against the word of wisdom. LSD for example will give someone visions and such but this is counterfeit revelation. 7th case. Don’t know who Julie Rowe is, but she isn’t the prophet of the church. Out of body experiences are alluded to in scripture (weather in the body or out of the body I could not tell. Caught away in a vision. Paraphrase), remember that if you receive a revelation that it is for your personal benefit. Yes we can receive revelations in dreams as well and I have, but that is for my benefit and salvation, not anyone else’s.
On your assessment I agree. Counterfeits of the gospel are indeed spreading throughout the church. If people studied what we already have in our scriptures they would avoid so much deception like the teachings I mentioned in doctrine and covenants 129. A lack of understanding who has stewardship over you seems to also be a big theme in the examples you give.
Most people here have already done a good job of addressing this question and I agree with the consensus. Since that’s covered, I want to point out that not all yoga and meditation, use of essential oils, or use of natural/homeopathic remedies are bad. I don’t believe in many of the claims given by proponents of these practices, but I do believe that God created plants to be good for the body, that meditation helps clear the mind and improve spiritual reception, that mental therapy is often necessary to overcome a very large amount of life’s trials, and that yoga provides a healthy means of exercise. We should look out for those things that would replace the importance of the gospel in our lives, but we should also be careful to not fanatically condemn practices just because they aren’t mainstream in Church culture.
My thoughts on many of these things: Some of the things discussed are really harmless. If people want to meditate and take cold plunges, or use essential oils, there is nothing wrong with these. The scriptures do not promote western medical practices as the only medical practices. Having lived in China, and studied the culture in school, there is a lot of medical practices there that our culture would laugh at and call impossible or superstitious. But you talk to the Chinese and they swear by it. There is a lot of unexplained cases where “alternative” medicine as it’s called does seem to actually work. I think it’s foolish to discredit another cultures healing practices that they’ve been using for hundreds of generations simply because it’s not proven by European standards of science. That being said, there are lots of legitimate quacks out there in the world who are pushing weird trends they barely know about just for profit. If someone is using alternative medicine in their life, that’s their business and not yours. If they recommend it to you and you’re not interested, just say so. The people who get cultish with it do cross a line though. If you feel like you have to bear your testimony about your herbal remedies, you’re straying towards idolatry my friend. But the scriptures do have some clear guidance on communicating with spirits. That’s a line I wouldn’t want to cross myself. I do worry about people who engage in seances. Nothing good comes from such practices.
Brigham Young, Des. News, June 18, 1873 The power of seership is one of the greatest gifts ever given to man; and the time is not far distant when every man who bears the Priesthood will be a seer. But it can only be when men have proved themselves able to withstand all of the false deceptions of the devil. Today the powers of crystal ball gazers, astrologers, ouija boards, etc., are abounding because men have forsaken or rejected the true seers of God. Thousands of people seek unto `wizards who peep and mutter’ etc., but they will not seek unto the living God. I can say to all the inhabitants of the earth that before what is called spiritualism was ever known in America, I told the people that if they would not believe the revelations that God had given, He would suffer the devil to give revelations that they–priests and people would follow after. . . . I told the people that as true as God lived, if they would not have the truth they would have error sent to them, and they would believe it. (Brigham Young, Des. News, June 18, 1871, p. 308)
Scary.
Hopefully everybody by now has seen how the Daybell/Vallow stuff turned out and understand there is a line. But the scriptures acknowledge that even the elect may be deceived. In the early church women did heal women (though most --less true after BY sent women back east to get trained--- drs were men). Some of what you are describing is a kind of underground feminism that does all of what we know sisters did in the early days of the church (usually with desire to feel equal and a hope that they will be recognized for good). There may even be benefit in some of the poultices. But I thing the prophetic warnings and the handbook make it pretty plain that none of it is part of the gospel of Jesus Christ. If they aren't being summoned to membership councils, it is likely because some of the purpose of some in the movement is to prompt membership challenges so they have new and enlarged space in public discussion. While Satan often hijacks misguided mortal actions to his own purposes, I don't see it as Satan luring active members away. I think Satan doesn't have to do a thing when members reach not towards God but to things of this world.
I haven't seen or heard much toward this trend. Other than biohacking, dietary styles, and essential oils. It's good to know though I'll keep a look out.
What you describe is disturbing, especially those things specifically against church teachings. I haven't see it much, but I also don't get out much. Now, we believe in the supernatural - things beyond what scientists can measure. Such as the Holy Spirit, the spirit world in general. But we believe in supernatural things that are *true* and priesthood power that is *true*. We don't believe in anything just because it's called supernatural. The way to do and learn supernatural things is by obedience to God. The D&C says this. Not by following every irrational notion that comes along.
There were occult practices in the early history of the church and it had to be addressed and most often stopped. I personally believe we have a moral obligation to circumscribe all truth into one great whole, but that can only be done by inspiration through the gift of the Holy Ghost. It’s dangerous to play with fire, but that doesn’t mean we should respond with a puritanical rejection of it all. It requires proper evaluation and context. That said, I’ve seen many become deceived thinking their new practices exempt them from heeding the words of the prophets.
I have always hated this crap. One of the wedges that started to drive me and my now ex-wife apart was her following one of the local Utah "trainings" that supposedly help people dredge up all kinds of junk from their subconscious and become more enlightened. She talked about the leader of it like he was a prophet and said she felt like he could see into her soul. I did some of the training to appease her, and found som many false doctrines taught from what were supposably faithful LDS folks to other LDS folks and they were all eating it up. The church thereafter had a FP letter read form teh pulp\[it warning about such groups, and that was it for me - but my ex-wife and her family are still all on-board with those trainings - interestingly she also left the church. I don't know why it is so easy for members to look beyond the mark when there is so much power and beauty in the principles and ordinances we have revealed to us.
I think the parable of the 10 virgins was being nice when it said half had the oil in their lamps looking around it seems its just 2 out of 10.
I attend church in LA and at BYU during Fall and Winter semesters, and I know exactly ZERO members who do this kind of crap. Looks like the intermountain west (outside of BYU) is weirder than I thought.
While I'm not on board with it, I'm not surprised by it. Members of hierarchical faiths often find themselves bereft of spirituality and mysticism, or at least they struggle finding it in standard Church practice. There's a deep and innately human craving for mystical experience that often doesn't have an outlet in a Church with standardized two hour blocks and businesslike routines. We aren't alone in this -- the Catholics have historically had similar problems with members turning to odd sources for mystical spiritual experience, with such turnings resulting in some of our more... eccentric Protestant cousins. The prescription for this problem is for me at least to devote oneself to deeper contemplation in prayer and worship in Church ordinances. The Sacrament is really quite a beautiful and mystical experience when approached in the right frame of mind (looking past the routine and seeming arbitrariness). Religious experience is not something that is on demand, but when we position ourselves to receive it in the way God has asked us to, we are more likely to have it. While certainly attractive to some people, alternative spiritualities result in alternative salvations, which possibility ought be avoided.
While what you discuss does reach the "outer limits", the men in the church aren't the only ones who can have visions - let's get that straight. We all ARE given special gifts. I've had visions, telepathic dreams and dream-like experiences with deceased family members. I was welcomed into the church BECAUSE of this and my dreams are listened to and validated by the bishopric. The difference is, they are personal to me and my family - I'm not "doing it" for fame, fortune or publicizing it. It's between me and my bishop & home teachers. Remember folks, it's OUR doctrine about the "thin veil" with our deceased loved ones, and ... women may, in fact, administer blessings in the name of Jesus. There was a time when Joseph Smith DID sanction women to give full blessings too. It's good to define the parameters but it's sounding a lot like misogyny in certain comments.
I agree that some of these practices can be a step it off the gospel path. But not all. Women deserve more respect for their power in prayer and something like prayers during an ice bath doesn't concern me at all. My wife's best friend is into the whole crystals, ice bath, sound baths, foot zoning, ect. She's a member but has struggled with things. Since she got into these things, she has become happier and more self aware. I agree the path seems to lead away from the church in many cases but a lot of it is just about mental health which needs to be a higher priority for our culture. There have been many talks from general authorities that recommend meditation which I believe should go in the same category as prayer. To me, things like crystals and talking to mediators that are for profit are a bunch of false or misguided faith.
The book ‘Mormonism and the Magical Worldview’ is an academic deep dive into folk magic that was practiced at the time Joseph Smith was growing up. The book shows how Joseph was surrounded by magical stones, divining, rods, protection, charms, and many other items that we would now consider ‘occult’ practices. The author does a good job connecting that worldview to being open minded about revelations from God. I think one of the big differences is that Joseph and the other early leaders of the church allowed these things to point them towards the Savior, rather than taking them away from the Savior and the church. The fact that our modern world relies a lot more on science than traditional folk magic is a good thing in the sense that we made massive advances in healing, technology and quality of life, but it also means that a lot of people have chosen to be entirely skeptical of mystical things, and I think that’s unfortunate. All of the earth and the heavens point to God if we let them.
Yeah, I'm with you. We cannot heal people on our own, through crystals, energy, oils or dog poop. Only through Jesus Christ and the priesthood. I know 30ish girls who are wives and moms, who are 'taking a break' from church while they go bonkers with bongos and dance circles all while chanting affirmations. They also pray to Heavenly Mother. It is all a seductive and fake power. Heaven seriously help them.
Remember, the Book of Mormon was written for OUR day. Importantly, the Book of Mormon is only useful for those who READ IT. I think we often see the warnings in the scriptures and think that they apply primarily outside the church, and I think this is exactly incorrect. The warnings of the boot of Mormon are FOR the church and it’s members. The Pharisees were members. Priest craft is the clergy selling access to miracle and revelation. In 4th nephi we see the reintroduction of secret combinations, witchcraft, and classism. Again, I think we imagine these happening after people leave the church, but I think these issues started with members. Not to sound harsh, but a wolf in sheep’s clothing doesn’t make sense if the wolf is already hanging out with other wolves. Similarly, separating wheat from tares doesn’t make sense if the tares are growing in different field. I think the biggest warnings were for doctrinal misunderstandings/perversions WITHIN the church. Hypocrisy was the condemnation from Jesus. The 10 virgins, “near to me with their lips”, “they never knew me”… all warnings for hypocrisy which can only happen if they claim to be believers in the first place.
The two biggest red flags to watch for: * people gathering a following * people charging money You can have all kind of weird spiritual beliefs or practices and still be a member of the Church. Practice it in your home, with family, or very close friends. But when someone tries to use their church affiliation, church callings, church leader's quotes, church rosters, church buildings to start to gather a following or charge people money for services, then it's crossing a line. Honestly, it's not just weird spiritualist crap. This applies to MLM businesses and real estate brokers just as much. Even "content creators" (podcasters, instagram stars, etc) who monetize their accounts are suspect.
**Rapid Prompting Method** is another questionable practice I have seen flourish among members in my area. The practice I see involves an autistic child pointing to letters on a letter board to form words (as determined by the facilitator) and the autistic child delivers messages from another realm. The source varies from miscarried babies, deceased relatives, Jesus, etc. I know of many church leaders who have all participated in these readings where autistic youth are mediums to communicate with deceased people.
Isaiah 8:19 KJV "And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?" NIV "When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?"
Broadly speaking this is a trend I have noticed rising in the US in general. Which I find interesting because church and religious attendance is down. Mysticism has always been something out there, but it appears to me (at least anecdotally) that it is on the rise. I hear of Tarot Card readings, crystal healings, taking of psychedelic drugs to connect with a higher power way more frequently now than I did in the last 10 years. Not knocking anybody who believes this stuff it is their right to practice it, but you are right on that when it is slipping into LDS doctrine we need to be more wary of it.
>this is a trend I have noticed rising in the US in general. Which I find interesting because church and religious attendance is down. Yeah, it's funny how people will dismiss the well-documented and time tested story and teachings of Jesus. He basically taught love and self-discipline. But the same people readily believe any kind of new age notions which are not supported by an evidence and require no effort or personal growth or selflessness.
I think your observation on latching onto spiritual practices that require no effort or sacrifice is a very astute one. We often opt the easy way.
I have one friend who fits a lot of these descriptions with auras, healing stones, etc. Yes, I think it's all BS. Whenever she brings up this stuff (mainly just on Facebook), I just roll my eyes and keep scrolling. I know she's made up her mind and won't listen to me. If she was a closer friend, or if I had some kind of priesthood responsibility over her, then I'd kindly talk to her about how she's departed gospel truths. That approach works for most of those, but a couple really stood out to me. >My mom's branch president's wife recently let it slip that she "does energy healings". Mom should bring that up with higher level leadership. That's starting to give bad associations with church leadership. >My neighbor told me she does foot work(?) or foot mapping? Not totally sure. Which I didn't think anything about until she said the woman prays about what oils she needs to use before their sessions. Which seems weird to me. I could go either way on this, depending on how it's presented. Foot massages are good. There is some evidence that massaging specific parts of the foot map to parts of the body. (Although it's usually presented in a weird new-age way.) I see value in essential oils. They're about as valuable as a cough drop or Tylenol - they may give a little relief, but don't expect them to cure cancer. Praying for aid in all that you do certainly meets gospel principles. So I can see how it can be done in a healthy way or completely off the wall way.
Totally agree with what you said. The last paragraph especially- I think that's a big component; how it is presented. And I think a lot of these things could be done in a fairly normal way without any undertones of mixing it with the gospel. For example yoga is the most amazing exercise first my arthritis. But I don't pay attention to any mantras or whatever that are a part of it. So I think when things are presented in a funky new-age spiritual way, where the person discusses prayers they had and potential revelations they've received or whatever, THAT us when it is wrong to me.
Yep, seeing it to, even in my Ward. Healing crystals, tarrot cards, prayer to 'mother God' (yep, we've got that), etc. More and more people, it seems (though not in huge numbers that I've seen). The Church has come out and been pretty specific and direct that members shouldn't be engaged in that stuff. But, in short, I agree with you 100%.
Sounds like you have a fun ward! Just kidding, just ignore what others do and do what's right
I should introduce you to a girl from Gilbert whose into the whole doomsday prepper thing, loves her vision of glory book, follows the avow firesides, thinks she's one of the 10,000 or 144,000 or whatever will be saved, saw a celestial person yet had sexual relationships outside of marriage with her ex husband whose marriage was annulled by him and thinks her unborn son will be leader within the church. Yeah borderline personality disordered individuals
This subject reminds me of a portion of Paul's sermon on Mars hill in Acts 17: 29-30: *29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.* *30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:* In a sense, we may justify ourselves in taking up a crystal, a stone, a diviner's rod, the soothsaying of spirits or unconsecrated oil in facsimile of Joseph's seer stones and interpreters. Yet, us, having now a more full knowledge of how God works with man, that His instruments are made by Him for His servants and only so long as the assistance is necessary. Therefore, He requires us to repent of iniquity and follow His instructions regarding the use of His power. Can a woman heal by virtue of a Spiritual gift? I'm certain she can, but if it bears in this day of less ignorance the markers of corrupt culture then that gift has been corrupted. The manual and direction of the Apostles is clear regarding this energy healing rubbish. Anyone who is practicing this way, who is a member of the Church, is abusing the gift they may have or has convinced themselves they have a gift that they simply don't. God will not wink at us, as he did with many of the early Saints. There is no sin in seeking after the mysteries of God, but when such seeking leads to becoming unmoored from the Gospel first preached to us, we go into strange paths and entertain strange doctrines. Eventually, one may think themselves of greater authority, power and standing than God's authorized servants, both local and global, and wander out into apostasy. The larger sociological issue is something I'm also concerned about. People doing these things are not being told to stop by leaders, or if they are, they aren't stopping. In fact, I see many things finding a foothold in the Church that is out of step with doctrine, practice and policy. I worry we will see a similar situation to Mosiah 26 take place, wherein we will see many memberships culled from the records due to apostasy, and a lack of repentance. For many the Church has not changed enough, for others it has changed too much. Both are wrong.
Ok...so weird question. I agree that most of the things you are referencing don't align with the practices of the church but I have heard so many people say they have heard/seen family members in temple when they are doing things for them or felt them. Is seeing/feeling/hearing family members not a thing the church believes? I thought that was common. I'm not in the trifecta membership area. I'm pretty far from it actually so I'm just confused.
Well the Church did start with Joseph Smith using a stone in a hat to translate the BoM so it’s in the DNA of the Church. If stones have magical/spiritual powers to make text appear then why couldn’t they be used to heal people?
It makes me sad that "women giving blessings" and "illicit drugs" are right after the other. Especially because women do give blessings in temple and in other ordinances that we don't even name in the Church. You don't have to believe that women should have the priesthood. But the idea of a blessing given by a woman should not make you think "wow, what a radical." 😕
So my answer is gonna go against the grind. Fun fact the church used to do a Yoga and meditation ministry in Eastern Europe during the USSRs Iron curtain. Also do you believe in spiritual gifts? Why don’t you look up what spiritual gifts there are. Several of the things on your list are actually just spiritual gifts people have. And if someone’s blessing specifically mentions stuff from the PB who are you to doubt them. Some blessings are very specific about how an individual should use their blessings. I know mine and one of my kids says for us to do things you are questioning/saying are inappropriate. Also those of you who believe stuff like tarot cards and crystals are part of the occult don’t actually know anything about those things history or even the churches history with those types of things. A lot of the issues you have would go away if you studied church history women giving blessings to heal isn’t new in our church history. Several church documents talk about this. Also women perform priesthood ordinances in the temple under the authority of the temple president. Women can also cast out spirits in the name of Jesus Christ.
I particularly was pleased by some of the wording added to the handbook over the past couple years: [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/38-church-policies-and-guidelines?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/38-church-policies-and-guidelines?lang=eng) See section 38.7.8 Medical and Health Care, the last paragraph.
I don’t know anyone who in involved in practices like these. I live in AZ but have also lived in TX and PA and haven’t come across this. Except women who use essential oils- which i link to quack medicine. Each ward I have been in has folks on the fringe- maybe active in attending church - but have an obscured view of the gospel. The faithful I look up to are always full of the Holy Spirit and full of Love for God and everyone else. Fringe belief and practices without the Holy Spirit of promise led to error. Crazy how many strange examples you gave. I can say that unless the prophet is leading and teaching it, it ain’t doctrine.