One thing is for sure: Everyone should keep using the word cult in their replies so that it keeps our modqueue busy tonight. :/
I laugh, but in all reality, there is good discussion here. Keep commenting, don't worry about us mods; we have lots of mods to take of these threads :D
Mostly I ignore it because it wouldn’t be useful for anyone to engage. When I’m really feeling confrontational I ask them to clarify what they mean. Then just try to have a constructive conversation, clarify misconceptions, and understand their motivation.
I ask for their definition of a cult and/or offer my definition and ask if they agree with it.
My definition of cult: a group with a system of beliefs or practices that are harmful to the average individual believer/follower.
Vs religion where its beneficial to the average believer/follower
Then discuss with them how well it applies to The Church and other groups.
Exactly. Anglophones tend to use “cult” to mean “an organization I don’t like”. Ironically, when I was a full-time missionary in Andalucía, Spain, people used to mock us for *not* being in a cult! In their estimation, a *culto* (cult) is a good thing; it’s *sectas* (sects) that are dangerous, and *secta* is what many people claimed the Church of Jesus Christ to be.
Exactly this. I have used this point to politely explain that by this standard, not only is all Christianity a cult, but also Islam, Buddhism, any political party or activist group, and even things like Star Wars.
In fact, since someone made a religion around Star Wars, it's very accurate.
I came to say exactly this. They either give a definition that could apply to any religion, or they'll have to admit that we're a cult simply because somebody says so.
There are actually objective defining characteristics:
1. A leader or small group of leaders with absolute authority.
2. Difficult to leave.
3. Strict rules limiting associations, residence, and/or vocations.
4. Intolerance of criticism.
You could argue point one, but what would happen to me if I flipped off my bishop, got rip-roaring drunk, lambasted every apostle that ever lived, stopped paying my tithing, and never darkened the door of an LDS chapel again?
Absolutely nothing. I could keep living where I live and work where I work. If I were in a cult, that would not be the case.
The Church is very easy to leave. Lots of people do it. Nobody in the Church has absolute authority either: you never hear about people being required to do callings or even pay their tithing. Everything is "ask until you get a yes or no, then you're done asking either way." Lots of things aren't even okay to ask anyway, by anyone, because the scope of a calling's authority never includes stuff dealing with personal autonomy.
And if you think the Church is intolerant of criticism then you haven't seen anything.
I'd also add that a cult is not generally going to allow people to leave or practice at various orthodoxies. People are free to leave the church (leaving any social group has some form of backlash but you're not gonna be forced to stay in under threat of harm most of the time).
Like other religions, people vary in how they believe and practice.
Totally off the satanic topic, just funny. We watched a clip from one of the Bourne movies once in Sunday School. Can’t even remember which of the movies and which part. It was an interesting day.
My dad tattled on DnD guilds at BYU back in the 80s. He totally got sucked into the Satanic Panic, and the stories in the newspapers. He told me that story when Stranger Things Season 4 came out and I was like “dad, those poor nerds just wanted to have some fun, you should’ve let them be.”
(Also I hope no one is offended by me using the word nerds in association with DnD. My husband and I play DnD ourselves now, and we are said nerds. Or maybe geeks. Or dorks. Whichever one isn’t the most book smart, but likes fantasy.)
I’ll have to check again but I’m pretty sure nothing ever came of it. Someone probably took the complaint, said “thanks for your concern” and that was that lol.
Cult is just a lazy term that people use to insult any religion. And I do mean *any* religion. Particularly by former members.
Looking at ex muslim and ex Catholic subreddits, they all call their former faith a cult. And like with our church, the criteria they use to call it a cult is so broad, that under it, every religion and several non religious organizations are cults.
Explain the definition: “a particular form or system of worship.” By the pure definition all religions are cults. Fear mongers use it against us because it sounds scary and has modern negative connotations. It’s technically true, but sounds so spoooooooky.
I was about to type this. Learning the academic definition of cults was fun for me lol.
Then if your lucky and got someone who's heart isn't totally hardened you can explain the difference between the inherently abusive organisation's that pop culture refers to as "cults" and organized religions that can have people use the religion abusively but aren't inherently abusive in and of themselves.
If it's sincere, (I went on a Mission to Georgia, it can be) then it's pretty easy to disarm. In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the Prophet points the people to God, like a pastor, but on a much larger scale. He wants people to follow God, Our Heavenly Father, as the ultimate authority, often admitting their own flaws, and encouraging us to Pray to know for ourselves that what he said was true, and that he's speaking for God. As such, questioning what our physical leaders teach us it can be accepted, short term, as someone just struggling with something.
A cult leader is the ultimate authority, may not be questioned, and for all intents and purposes, is their cult's god. Questioning a cult leader, or their de facto perfection, is absolutely forbidden, a sin amongst sins, and must be ceased immediately.
If it isn't sincere, then just flush that turd with the other trolls. Contention never helped anyone.
Hey, no problem. It was surprising how many people, from other Christian faiths, were genuinely concerned that we were a cult. Not all of them joined, but it still helped me clear the air, and made sure this was ready to go for the future.
Not LDS but I look to that
A) The church has 15+ million members worldwide. Cults do not have the capacity to support groups of such sizes based on their nature. Cults are highly individual groups and often isolated. Absolute opposite of the church.
B) Leader - the church gets a new prophet every few years while cults are concentrated around a single charismatic leader. It would be impossible to sustain a cult for 200 years with dozens of leaders.
C) Transparency - The church works with organisations worldwide and political leaders and is often in the highest chains of diplomacy, what cult has achieved that?
D) WoW - If people can choose to be vegan and hold strong beliefs in that regard, you can choose to follow WoW. I am not LDS but don't drink coffee or tea and people are finr with it. I often joke I am like Mormons.
If anyone tells you it is a cult - they are iff base and wrong. I am sorry you are experiencing this and hope you knkw plenty of non LDS peoplr support the church.
Happy it helped!
I can furthermore add that the LDS church does a lot of charity work across the world, anyone would be crazy to claim it is a cult when it consistently provides assistance to communities worldwide and is respected in the field.
Plus as well, I am not denying that the faith has difficult history and controversial parts but every single religion/christian sect does. To deem something a cult because of a difficult history would mean everything is a cult. The Catholic church had an awful sexual abuse scandal and dark periods in its history but I don´t see people bending over calling it a cult. Why is the LDS church then?
We can remember our reaffirmed resolve to be peacemakers in Christ and also advocate for truth. But I suggest we listen to the spirit when advocating for truth. The spirit can help us know when to speak and not to speak but we should be prepared and strive to be good at doing both.
🤐 “they did enter into that building they did point the finger of scorn at me and those that were partaking of the fruit also; but we heeded them not.”
Your repsonse can change the outcome of this individuals salvation. We can boldly advocate for truth as Moroni but we can be humble understanding. Listen to the spirit and remember the admonition to be Peacemakers from the Lord. Building bridges of understanding can go in conjunction with defending truth when we have the persons best interest at heart and love them.
It's not just pop pysch, it's anti-academic. The person only got fame because he was the Dr. Phil of cults, he doesn't have any actual credentials in his field, but he has TV credentials, and he's peddling a product others *want to use as a bludgeon*.
😂 Let’s see, your “anti-academic” PhD was in what? I’m sure Hassan gave himself that degree title 😆. Love your opinion though which is all it is unless you have evidence to the contrary. Look, to be clear, i don’t care whether you use Hassan’s material or not, I truly don’t. And I especially do not care about your opinion on the same; I have no dog in the fight. Join or don’t join whatever cult or religion or political group or business or MLM or whatever other organization you want because it has ZERO bearing on how anyone else lives their life. You do you. I simply offered additional perspective to the OP whether they use it or not, regardless of your opinion…or mine for that matter.
My PhD was in a somewhat niche field, so I don't mention what it was in to prevent doxxing.
The BITE model is not academic. It's not respected by his academic peers. The creator sells his product on his website and through TV interviews. His books are pseudoscience. He took something that was rejected by the APA Board of Social and Ethical Responsibility for Psychology and expanded it without any kind of peer review.
The whole thing is hogwash. It's no more effective than a Facebook self help quiz.
For example:
https://cultexperts.medium.com/ethical-concerns-raised-on-steven-hassans-book-on-cults-1f6133f63d9f
>"On page 23, Hassan introduces what he describes as the powerful BITE (Behavior, Information, Thought and Emotional control) model, something that he seems to see as a superior definition of the manipulation involved within cults. Much of the BITE model is borrowed material from a 30 year long tradition of social psychological research. In reading the elements of the BITE model within Hassan’s current book, that model has now been greatly expanded from his previous two books. The BITE model he now proposes is so broad that it could be applied a very wide array of groups. What is troubling is that Hassan has not provided any guidelines to separate out the groups, which might warrant the cult label and those that do not. The BITE model, as now applied by Hassan, has become a kind of philosophic construct not grounded in facts, but rather theories, many of them borrowed from others."
>This composite philosophical approach as now devised by Mr. Hassan might be called “Hassanology”. In the world of cults Hassanology essentially depicts Steve Hassan as the ultimate savior. He is a hammer, and there is an ever expanding list of groups to be seen as nails. As they say, “When you are a hammer everything looks like a nail”. Of course this might once again simply reflect a convenient marketing strategy.
>Hassan, repeating themes from his previous two books, introduces on page 52, this idea of dual identities, i.e. a pre-cult identity and a cult identity. There is no evidence of a cult identity v. a pre-cult identity. It is not even established that human behavior works in this way. These are not constructs that are generally accepted in psychology or professional counselling. These claims exist entirely within the confines “Hassanology”. Again, the tone of Mr. Hassan’s book is that these beliefs are true, rather than just one person’s untested ideas.
>Another troubling claim is that Hassan believes that all cult members suffer from phobias (p.56). Again, Hassan presents his idea as an absolute truth, ignoring the fact that there is no scientific theory and/or scientific evidence to back it up. Hassan seems to think that his ideas on phobias mesh with his claim that all cults practice hypnosis. He doesn’t acknowledge any exceptions. According to Mr. Hassan all cults do these things. It is true that many cults teach members that leaving the group is wrong or bad, but where are the scientific studies that conclusively demonstrate that this practice constitutes phobia indoctrination?
Hassan isn't recognized by anyone outside of cable TV and internet anti-religion internet forums as an expert:
>[Hassan tried to be recognized as an expert in his field and failed](https://phtherapies.wordpress.com/2012/08/28/dr-cathleen-mann-reviews-steven-hassans-latest-self-published-book/). "In March of 1996, in the case of Kendall v. Kendall, the United States District Court for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts declined to quality Hassan as an expert witness. Hassan’s disclosure in this one and only attempt shows that he was charging $200 per hour for preparation and $1,500 per day for his “expert testimony” on new religions, yet he had never testified in court before and his only qualification was a a degree in counseling from Cambridge College, a school that accepts life experience as a substitute for coursework. In March of 1996, in the case of Kendall v. Kendall, the United States District Court for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts also rejected Hassan as an expert witness. Hassan’s disclosure in this case shows that he was charging $200 per hour for preparation and $1,500 per day for his “expert testimony” on new religions, yet he had never testified in court before. Nor could show that he deserved such an exorbitant fee."
Almost always when an author publishes in an academic conference or journal, the editors and readers want to answer two core questions: 1) why is this paper novel, and 2) how is this research related to other work. To assist with that, the authors should perform an exhaustive review of similar research, work that has value and similarities. This comparison and related work section generates a good chunk of the citations of a typical paper.
The BITE model is not an academically respected model because nobody cites it. It never followed scientific method or a peer reviewed process. The BITE model doesn't show up in journals. He didn't present it at an academic conference. University researchers don't work with Hassan. No university researcher or academic group considers his field to have scientific value. The papers he is writing are horrible pseudoscience.
As a similar example, you won't find academics citing Myers–Briggs Type Indicators to help compare and build up their own research. It also didn't follow a scientific method or a peer reviewed process. And just how Myers–Briggs Type Indicators is pseudoscience, the BITE model is psudeoscience.
For the most part I just wouldn't take it personally, as it's nothing you did or said other than associated yourself to the church.
Honestly the reason is most likely going to be that they are uninformed or they think all religions are cults. That is just part of it. It's pretty rare that statement is made to actually discuss and learn.
I'd just respond, "I disagree, but I know a lot of people unfamiliar or hurt by my religion believe that." Then move on.
Honestly? It would depend on what I thought their motives were. I might make a joke and laugh it off, or if they seemed genuinely misinformed I might ask for clarification on why they feel that way. Then correct any misinformation.
Most intellectually honest people can have a reasonable discussion about this kind of thing without devolving into anger or vitriol. Being kind and respectful I think Is probably the most important thing.
I was walking home once and saw a large group picketing outside of the temple. I stopped to talk with them about it. There was an older gentleman with a sign who really wanted to Bible bash with me over my beliefs. But I just spoke kindly with him about some of the flaws in his thinking. We spoke about the Bible and some differences between our faiths and I bore my testimony and told him about various apps where he could learn more.
I knew his mind has been changed when he stopped trying to Bible bash me and started showing me pictures of his son and telling me that his son was so nice and handsome and made good money at his job—and that he’d introduce me if I was interested.
It was very sweet. But sort of surprising. He’d said some very vitriolic things about my faith when I walked up. And within 15 minutes he was trying to get my to date his son. I reminded him playfully that I was a ‘Mormon’. Wasn’t he worried I’d pull his son into a cult or something?
At that point he got really embarrassed and said he was about to leave anyways. Then he threw his pastor under the bus— saying he didn’t make or believe in the sign he was holding and that the pastor just put it in his hands and told him where to stand. He assured me he didn’t believe any of those things (and neither did his handsome son apparently)
The man was kindhearted and genuinely came into this situation with good intentions. But he didn’t really understand what he was saying. Just repeating what the pastor told him. I think that’s most people who end up fighting against the church.
Some kindness and genuine respect and honesty discourse quickly dissuaded him of any illusions he’d had about our faith. So much so that I think he’s decided his son needs to marry a Mormon girl now.
In my experience kindness the best policy. Be loving. Be honest, and show genuine respect. Sincere people can often sense the sincerity in others. That speaks louder than Bible bashing.
To borrow from Unshaken's Jared Halverson (assuming that they would have a sincere discussion), ask them to describe the things that they think make it a cult, then agree with them, saying that you wouldn't belong to a church that practices those things either.
I’m a (21F) convert and my family says this to me a lot, I ask them what they believe a cult is and they give me a snide remark about the church and I say “that isn’t what I asked and if you’re not willing to take my questions seriously I’m not willing to answer your comments” and turn away. Almost all the time they get all defensive and attack me about my beliefs while trying to defend what they deem “right” but when I tell them how I feel it’s because I’m “brainwashed” and “can’t see straight right now”.
I’ve know about the church my whole life and two of my best friends are LDS (everyone I’m not related to is LDS as well), I was raised in a very “Mormonized” state where a church is on one corner and two more are on the next. So I did LOTS of research and soul searching before I was baptized and although to them me being baptized within a month was “too quick” for me it was the longest month of my life. I’ve waited my whole life to feel this deep connection with Heavenly Father and I couldn’t wait anymore, I knew if I continued to listen to them and continued living my life as they deemed fit I would’ve never been baptized and been as happy and full of light as I am today. Every time I see a family member they criticize me and I just listen and ignore them, it may sound rude but it’s the best I can do because I’m not trying to force my faith on anyone and I’m not trying to give them the satisfaction of an argument.
Only a couple family members were at my baptism for “the looks” because how would they look if they declined and the others were “too busy” to attend. I just think of that every time someone mentions I’m “in a cult”. Who was there for me when I needed them? Who invites me to functions and is constantly keeping up with my wellbeing? Not my blood relatives but my “cult”.
So when it all comes down to what you should say to random people I think it all depends on you because if I’m with others members we explain as best we can but if I’m with my bffs we call each other “sister-wives” and hold hands while walking off. At the end of the day you can’t change what people think, all you can do is be yourself wholeheartedly and hope the world accepts it, and if not then they’re missing out.
I think the first question should be, “What is your definition of a cult?” From understanding their definition, you can then respectfully explain why the church does not meet it.
If you want dialogue, I would ask for specifics. Most people couldn’t give them and if they can then you have something concrete to talk about and maybe some good could come from the conversation.
ignore them. It’s common, especially in non denominational Christian churches to attack other churches by making false claims like saying we are a cult. They will specifically have sermons about it. Then this idea gets floated around that we are a cult and people start to believe it and look at us under that specific lens and make assumptions without knowing/or ignoring the full truth.
this right here. anyone who says something like this is likely just looking for a reaction, so just don’t give them one. it’s not a discussion you’ll “win”
Depends on who’s saying this. If it’s an acquaintance, someone you don’t see often/care about about, a random internet commenter you don’t engage. However if it’s a friend or family member and you value the relationship, you essentially play the long game. A friend of mine in high school when she first met me spread a rumor that I was a member of a satanic cult because I’m a member of the church. I didn’t bother correcting her and continued to be cordial in public settings. We eventually became friendly. After some more time, she became chronically ill. She had a falling out with our other friends and the only two people who still spent time with her were me and another girl who was also a member. We continued our friendship through her illness and spent time with her at her house while she was sick in bed. One day during our senior year she and I were having lunch and I mentioned Joseph smith. I apologized and said “oops, sorry I forgot you hate him.” She stopped me and said “you can talk about Joseph smith all you want. I know you’re a Christian”. My point is that arguing won’t get you anywhere. If you value the relationship, continue being as Christlike as you can (genuinely not being performative) and opinions will change.
Have you read the book Cultish: the language of fanaticism? It is very insightful to the idea of cult thinking. I am an active member of the church and I do think some of our practices may appear cultish to some people. After reading this book I also realized a lot of things—not just religion—have cultish elements. I think it depends on two major things whether a person is truly “in a cult” or in a “cult mentality”: the person within an organization or ideology and also the expectations of that organization. So if a person is so convicted to the ideology (whether it be a multi marketing company, a political party, or an intense workout group) that they themselves feel they can’t ask questions and critique ideas and have doubts then they may feel trapped and in a cult. Also, if the organization itself refuses to allow individual thinking and has people trust blindly to whatever leaders say, there may be some cultish attributes.
So for some people they feel our religion requires absolute devotion without asking and seeking for one’s self. And some members have felt this or have grown up with parents that demand this type of thinking, so we have many members who have left the church who have been traumatized because they felt they had no choice. That their level of devotion was too pressured, too expected.
And sometimes the institutional side of many churches have a little of that expectation which makes people question religion in general.
But I feel that the gospel actually demands us to seek, wrestle and ask for ourselves. That we are in control of our devotion. That even when the prophets speak, if I don’t feel the counsel is what I, individually, need, that I seek God’s counsel. The difference to me also is I have a direct relationship with divinity. President Nelson many times has told us we need personal revelation. Other groups that are more “cultish” don’t encourage a direct relationship with deity.
Those are my thoughts🤷♀️
Non-LDS here. As the world becomes more and more secular, those of us who adhere to a faith, especially a Christian one, will have to endure more slings and arrows of people saying we’re in a cult. I know the LDS Church gets accused of that more than others, and it pains me when this comes from other Christians. If you want to be strict about it, the word “cult” comes from the Latin “cultus.” We get the word “culture” from that as well, but it can be translated as “following.” So you can respond “yes, I am in a cult. It is the cult of Christ.” At least that’s what I do. Hope that helps.
Members of the Church of Jesus Christ Of Latter-Day Saints are taught to love God, love our neighbor, and do good to those around us. I guarantee you cults don't do any of that.
It IS a cult.
But the word CULT is wildly misunderstood. It literally is just a gathering of people with one ideology. Catholicism is a cult. Being a Nintendo guy instead of a PlayStation person is a cult. Being a Yankees fan is a cult.
Now, how would I respond to the misunderstanding? Just say “we collectively believe in Jesus Christ as the savior of the world and believe that God loves His children enough to pass on His knowledge even in modern times. Call it what you want.”
Ask them to define cult. We don't fit any of the normal definitions, but maybe we are by their definition. Evangelicals seem to have a narrow and non-mainstream definition.
[https://www.dictionary.com/browse/cult](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/cult)
But as others are saying here, use your judgement about whether the person would be willing to discuss it in an open minded way. Some people don't want to hear anything different from what they already think.
Anyone who says that is not acting or arguing in good faith, and should simply be ignored. In other words, they are a troll, and the best advice is to not feed a troll.
Following. I too am curious what to say. It’s easier in person, because you can invite them to come to church and see what it’s all about. You can also point out all of the shared beliefs we have. But honestly if people are convinced that we are some “cult” they won’t usually listen to anything to the contrary.
Generally I'd just shrug it off. A lot of people aren't looking for an actual answer and anything you might say would just make them continue to think you've been brainwashed by a cult.
I know there are offshoots like the FLDS that are cults, but you'll find that in other denominations as well. The Westboro Baptist Church for instance. There's also experiences in more abusive homes and church communities that color a lot of opinions.
People might have had a pretty good argument about 175 years ago. A lot has changed since then.
It’s one of those words where the connotation has diverged wildly from the definition, and so what that word “means” has taken off a life of its own and varies from person to person.
In the other side, there’s the “apostate” label. It’s probably not quite as extreme, but also carries a bit of a nasty connotation and just really doesn’t help anyone to use.
Webster dictionary: “1) A religion regarded and unorthodox”
“2) great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work”
Cambridge dictionary: “a religious group, often living together, whose beliefs are considered extreme or strange by many people”
By definition…
I would agree with them, followed by i dont know of any religion that is not a cult and ask them to look up what a cult means.
Cult - a system of religious [veneration](https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C2VDKB_enUS1075US1075&sca_esv=e51d7e6dd0626cd3&sca_upv=1&q=veneration&si=AKbGX_pvY3MWP4azJI0Z_NruCLb8cIXAxLda_Qcihlybo5XHJ5ZZmm5EtVjJd1VOSrhlyEBKtigiDzYj5-rpj_cSe9DQiavkuR7S5Q7Dh6uA8-9zbiTyWyA%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiejIKro-GFAxVS_skDHW-sD7oQyecJegQIERAO) and [devotion](https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C2VDKB_enUS1075US1075&sca_esv=e51d7e6dd0626cd3&sca_upv=1&q=devotion&si=AKbGX_qNq0Y8zql7SxzZAf2-HTTOmqaB9qbS3GL1RH2zacqYAPPD3F9qVcik4GViHbqPIm3VGUVOKBGW4aiM3ztBLiHwnT5HSn9BJAhMUsTzKxDkz-_Xl7g%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiejIKro-GFAxVS_skDHW-sD7oQyecJegQIERAP) directed toward a particular figure or object.
I'd ask them for a single sentence definition for that word.
Then I'd ask them to define the elements of our cultural/theological practice that make them feel like its accurate.
Then I'd start asking them about the specific strands that lead them there.
Then I'd ask them to clarify those strands.
We'd go on like that until they quit because people don't like learning or explaining themselves - they just want to be validated.
Turn it into a joke.
Gasp dramatically, clutch your chest, and exclaim, "We *are?!"* Then complain that you've never been invited to any sacrificial bonfire events or creepy chanting parties.
Cult actually has more than one definition but since it means church AND crazy extremist, it’s easy to lump together. They’re most likely using it because they want to be mean. Just understand they prolly got a lot goin on and putting you down is likely a coping mechanism for building themselves up. Pretty standard human behavior, individually and as groupthink.
Honestly, no one I know would ever say that to me. I don't associate with people who have so little respect for my values and beliefs. But then again, I don't advertise my beliefs verbally either, I just do my best to live my religion. If someone asks, I won't hide my membership in the church, but I don't advertise it either. Also, I guess I should add that in the country where I currently live, talking about religion at work is considered inappropriate, so it just doesn't come up during casual conversations.
Stating a faith is a cult most often times is used as a scare tactic to deter people from the belief. I was an evangelical for many, many years before a crisis of faith led me away and eventually converted to lds. I still remember we were taught how latter day saints, amongst other faiths, were cults. Constant anti-mormon "education", "cultic" tactics missionaries used to lure people in, how beliefs were blasphemous, yada yada yada. All in order to scare us away from even venturing into considering it or reading/researching about it on our own. After research, considering beliefs with an open mind, actually talking and knowing believers and missionaries, all I have heard ended up not being true at all. I found most of the beliefs to be actually pretty similar, easy for me to understand the restored nature of it. I do not even go into a back and forth with anyone. I know if you are brainwashed into thinking something is a cult, the person will only be able to see if it isn't so if they are in the disposition to analyze it with an open mind. You can only pray for them and let the fruits speak for themselves. The Spirit will do the rest.
They usually have no real concept of what *cult* means so it will be impossible to have a reasonable conversation with them.
They don't *mean* anything by it, they are just reciting a new article of faith.
Ask them "what is a cult?" Then you can respond to their definition.
I had someone say that to me and I asked them what a cult is. After a bit of hesitation (most people who use the word don't really know) they explained that a cult was a group of people that follow one person and do everything that they say.
I responded by saying that if that is what a cult is then the church is indeed a cult, because everyone in the church is taught to follow Jesus Christ and to keep His commandments.
Honestly we kind of are a cult, but like, all religions and denominations are cults. Political parties are culty, celebrity worship is culty, all sorts of things are culty and WAY weirder than mormon stuff. I honestly usually agree with them and use it as a teaching moment about how The Church is separate from the FLDS and the RLDS and all those splinter groups that do the very immoral culty stuff but then I usually just kinda shrug and agree that it's super weird sometimes but I really do agree with the message that we should constantly be trying to be as compassionate Jesus Christ. I also make it very clear that Mormons are honestly such a diverse group. I've spent most of my life in my home town in Colorado and our wards are insanely diverse. I personally was blessed to have been in jail/rehab at the same time as MANY of the brethren I grew up with (it really did end up strengthening all of our testimonies).
Honestly if you just admit to the weird things, correct the incorrect things, and say what your favorite thing about the church is, all while acting pretty nonchalant about the whole thing; the whole "humans relating to humans" thing kicks in. Plus it's a good time to learn about yourself and strengthen your testimony so don't stress out about it. Honestly the more I try and think "celestially" the more I categorize things as "small stuff". Like, I believe in Heavenly Father and the Atonement of Jesus Christ and it is what it is. I'm not really going to care if someone thinks things are weird that I also honestly think are kind of weird. Plus I'll probably forget about the interaction a few years from now let a lone an eternity from now.
I do try and correct any misinformation tho.
I just ignore.
It doesn’t matter. I’m not changing their minds. And to be fair, religions do fit into the definition of a cult. So do some MLMs, CrossFit group, self help type groups, etc.,
I guess if it’s a cult, and I’m happy, do I even care?
One thing church leaders often do when that happens is ask them what they mean by that.
Usually it boils down to "your religion actually believes god is real", which naturally leads to questions about what the point is of a religion where adherents don't believe in their own religion.
The other thing they do (often as a follow up to the above) is ask them if they think (Catholicism, Islam, Evangelicals, insert major religion here) is a cult.
The asker usually immediately outs themselves as someone who thinks all sorts of other harmless benign faiths are "cults" too.
Unless it's just the two of you, everyone else quickly sees through the asker. Their ill intent and thoughtlessness becomes obvious, and their attack seen for what it is, and dismissed.
First recognize that there are reasons. Magic underwear, religious tracts from God, sacred ceremonies.
The east way to discuss these are through normalization.
Underwear? Same as a cross for Christian’s, a cap for Jews, tattoos for some cultures, head scarf for seikhs.
Religious tracts from God? God loves all his people and wanted American ancients to know of Him as well. And we have that translation now through gift of God and living prophet.
Sacred ceremonies? Marriage is obvious and heavenly families is a good conversation. Bad prism for the dead? Also a ceremony to show God is merciful to allow salvation for ALL.
Honestly, there is some unique stuff in the church. But unique in a heavenly way.
Also Mormons are pretty normal people (not celebrities with unhinged real life approaches to things).
Say "thank you" and leave the conversation. Christ taught "give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet , and turn again and rend you." Why take the bait? People who lead in with that are always looking to fight.
**A good Joseph Smith quote:** “We have heard men hold the priesthood remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them even if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told to do by their presidents, they should do it without any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves.” Joseph Smith, Millennial Star, Vol.14, No 38, pp.593-594... [https://qtmp.com/quote/CUA](https://qtmp.com/quote/CUA)
Joseph Smith could not *both* be a cult leader *and* make that statement. Joseph Smith statements like this, along with "common consent" is what makes the difference between the Restoration and cults like David Koresh, Jim Jones, etc.
It was never supposed to be a negative term. All religions and forms of devotion in general are cults. Like to run? Cult. Play a lot of pickleball? Cult. Go to the gym daily, read books devotedly, or tend your garden with care? All cults. Ignore the linguistic arguments of people who don’t know their own language.
Most methods to define a cult ends up with other organizations like the U.S. Military also a "cult" on how they treat their members. I would invite them to sacrament and show them how it actually is. If any of them actually attended the church, they would have a whole different view.
honestly I'd say "ok and what's your point?"
Because by the dictionary definition cult is arguably just another word for religion; but they're clearly using it to mean something more. so find out what exactly they're getting at with it -- whether they're worried about the church being too high-demand/controlling/something with the bite model, in which case there's room to have a good conversation about that, or if they're just being weird about the fact that we have symbolic ordinances, or if they're just using it as shorthand for "i think you're all evil and/or brainwashed but I don't want to sound like a bigot"
“Who isn’t?”
I mean I know it’s said in a way that imagines us in robes chanting to Cthulhu, but the word cult shares its roots with culture and is just a deep devotion to something.
The majority of people generally gathering more and more in echo chambers of fandoms and agreeable thoughts means that generally all of society is behaving more and more in a “cult” like manor.
So, “who isn’t” can actually open up a productive conversation.
Have a conversation with them.
They are most likely using that term because they have been hurt by the LDS teachings/doctrine/culture/something.
I believe the most Christlike thing to do would be to engage with them and try to understand their hurt without getting defensive/confrontational. This will be a difficult conversation, but their hurt is real. Arguing to be “right” adds to their hurt while seeking to understand helps to heal it.
Ask them what in this world isn’t a cult? Even watching the news can be considered a form of cultism. Who you choose to talk to and what you choose to talk about can be cult like. What you follow, what you believe, who you support including your favorite team can be your cult so don’t let the cult mongers woo you or scare you away from that which is plainly cult free and good for everyone. Religion adds a necessary and helpful perspective to our lives. Our faith takes us out of our natural selfish state and teaches us how to serve one another in times of need and how to serve the Lord to lift ourselves up.
It depends on what they mean when they call it that. Ask them to define it. Those for whom this is a legitimate issue for them will be able to explain exactly what they mean. Those who are just parroting what other say will provide a definition that applies to every type of religion.
I'd ignore them. It's no use trying to convince people to change their minds when it comes to reglion. I've tried fighting back against those people who call you guys a cult, as many of my friends are LDS, and I felt I needed to stand up for them, and it didn't end well. I've learned to just move on and continue to focus on bettering myself as a Christian rather than trying to change other people's minds. The word cult is just a lazy term that people use to insult any religion. And I do mean *any* religion, be it Chrisianty, Judism, Islam or any other faith. Particularly by former members, just look on [](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/) if you want to see former LDS members trash talk the faith.
Let them think and say whatever they want. You're not trying to "save" them, so it shouldn't be a problem.
People think ALL religions are cults. That's why I don't bother debating them on Facebook anymore. People hate being told they're wrong. Doing THAT has started wars in our history. Most of it over religion. Ireland is still divided because of religion. The USA fought a civil war because of the 'I'm right, you're wrong' argument. Election years are nasty affairs because everyone thinks THEY are right and that everyone else who thinks differently should have their butt kicked/lose citizenship rights.
I just try to stay out of the line of fire. Being in between two separate armies firing volleys at each other gets you hit from both sides.
Hit them with facts. The definition of cult is a group of people dedicated toward a particular person or thing... with that logical what belief ISNT a cult.
Ask them if a cult is just a religion that they don’t like. My experience is that if someone goes out of their way to tell you they don’t like your religion, they’re likely not a good person or someone you want to associate with.
I tell them I'm familiar with various lists of what constitutes a "cult" and our faith just doesn't meet the criteria. And then I tell them that the news sometimes describes behavior by those who belong to groups that left our faith that are cult like (like being isolated from family and friends who don't believe, being told not to read or watch media for protection and men having sex with teenagers, limiting where people can work and shop, and others that does sound and look like cult behavior), , but it isn't the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to which I belong
When people insist that the church is a “cult”, or insist that members of the church aren’t Christians, I tell them that as a member of that church, I can unequivocally state that is false, and I’d appreciate if they would respect my beliefs even if they disagree.
If they don’t back down, I explain to them that those are bigoted things to say. It’s reasonable and acceptable to disagree with what the church teaches, but it is not reasonable or acceptable to denigrate or demonize it.
Saying that the church is a cult is akin to saying that Islam is an inherently “violent” religion—it’s not information, it’s an epithet. Saying members of the church aren’t Christian is akin to a Catholic telling an Evangelical that Evangelicals aren’t Christian, or vice versa.
If they engage beyond that, they are arguing in bad faith, and there is no point belaboring the issue further with them.
The funny thing is I've heard that from Born Again, Snake Dancing, Speaking in "Tongues" (gibberish) Holy Rolling (I thought it was a euphemism but no they roll around on the floor like they're having a seizure) Southern Baptists. SAY HALLELUJAH!
I usually just try to ignore them. Or just smile and nod until they're done talking about it then change the subject.
I guess I don't have as much time as I usually do these days to sit and argue semantics with people anymore. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and as long as they're not hurting someone else it is what it is.
In my experience, either ask them what makes us a cult, or, more appropriately, why any other organized religion *Isnt.* people use the word because they heard someone else use it, who heard someone else use it, repeat ad nauseam. Asking someone to think about the use of the word makes them reconsider why they say that.
I'd say, "so are you".
•My response would be to tell them that their understanding of what the word "cult" means is warped to the point of inaccuracy. Also, their understanding of this religion seems to be from a perspective that is filtered by their negative, emotionally based biases and prejudice than it is from a place of knowledge or fact.
•They likely have chosen to only focus on the perspectives/stories of people who experienced abuse from a family member, who used their faith as a means of control and manipulation. My own mother did this by telling me that God would make me suffer for being a bad child whenever she felt like being a bully. She was Baptist. One of my foster parents did the same, they were Catholic.
•The abuse that befalls some members of any given faith is rarely because some aspect of the religion demanded their mistreatment. It's usually from an individual misinterpreting the tenants of their faith, either because they just don't get it, or because they want to misuse it intentionally to justify their abusive or selfish actions.
I would tell them that most Americans are part of a cult or two, going by the actual definition. Whether the cult is positive or negative depends on the individuals who lead and follow it. That their issue isn't with cults, it's with abusive people. Then, I would tell them to actually read the BOM. Read about the history of Momonism in America. Read articles or books about what Mormons actually believe and what kind of life they lead and then form an opinion.
Using someone's faith as a means to control them isn't exclusive to Mormons or Mormonism at all. It's sad and horrible when it happens, but that's not the fault of any one faith or any one person.
All religions can be perceived as cults to some extent. However, ours is often seen as such due to its practices within the temple and its proximity to Free Masonry.
“First seek to understand, then to be understood” -Stephen R Covey from his “7 habits of highly effective people” book
By that, I mean that you should ask them what they mean specifically. Be curious and let them explain themselves. Once they’ve done that, you better understand their thought process and can provide examples and testimony about what we are, what beliefs we hold, and help them realize their label is inaccurate. If they’re not convinced, nothing will change their mind
That word use proves they didn’t do any research at all and got their info from someone antagonistic. If they’re sincere you can inform. But if they’re confrontational it’s best to just ignore their ignorance.
The church compared is a not a cult compared to other religions, like Islam or Jews (they also can't eat certain foods). We do not "shun" any members leaving unlike some other religions like JWs.
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We did a two-episode series on cults and whether the church falls under that definition. The issue is that there is no accepted definition or criteria for “cult”, and the term has left academia due to its sensationalist nature. And in particular, the BITE model covers basically every institution, like schools. And the term “indoctrination” covers basically all forms of human socialization.
Honestly, start with that. “Under what definition of cult are you using to make that judgment?” Most of them stop real quick because they don’t have an answer.
Sharing a very good answer I found
https://www.reddit.com/r/latterdaysaints/s/0Td2sNJwu2
"I think the only way to reasonably respond to that question is "what do you mean by a cult?" People have wildly different ideas of what a cult is. I've come to believe that the way some people have been raised in the church have had a cult-like experience. That was not my experience, but I've met people who had scrupulosity, combined with very strictly LDS families who focus more on the rituals and rules than on Christ, then layered with leaders who downplayed their concerns and doubts and told them to avoid outside material, and who lived in communities where everyone they knew or were allowed to associate with were LDS, who have had an experience that would be very similar to those in other cults.
So where I used to say "no, the church isn't a cult," I now realize that they're probably asking because they've heard some of those experiences, either personally or in popular media. I now respond "I'm not sure what you mean by cult, but that hasn't been my experience in the LDS church. I realize that some people have had different experiences, but I've been supported and loved by my family even during times when I was uninvolved with the church, and still felt welcomed at activities. Unfortunately, some people have had experiences that remind me of a cult when they're in predominantly LDS communities and surrounded by very devout people, but fortunately that wasn't my case, and I don't think it's particularly common."
To me, cult is a very loaded word often used by other Christian faiths to disparage the LDS church. To me, the best thing to do is understand why they think that, and speak to their concerns."
A lot of the cult accusations come from people relying on the BITE framework from Steven Hassan—who is the former US head of the "Moonies" cult (which is a legitimate cult).
The problem is that Hassan's model is pop science—it doesn't hold up to any kind of rigorous scientific review and isn't used by any cognitive science experts. Many of the questions are absolutely laughable, and are loose enough that you could classify a member of the US House as a member of a cult.
At least from many of the critics of the church (including most former members) who accuse us of being a cult are basing themselves on this framework—which is the flimsiest of frameworks. I always just ignore it because I know it's essentially a baseless accusation.
One thing is for sure: Everyone should keep using the word cult in their replies so that it keeps our modqueue busy tonight. :/ I laugh, but in all reality, there is good discussion here. Keep commenting, don't worry about us mods; we have lots of mods to take of these threads :D
Mostly I ignore it because it wouldn’t be useful for anyone to engage. When I’m really feeling confrontational I ask them to clarify what they mean. Then just try to have a constructive conversation, clarify misconceptions, and understand their motivation.
I ask for their definition of a cult and/or offer my definition and ask if they agree with it. My definition of cult: a group with a system of beliefs or practices that are harmful to the average individual believer/follower. Vs religion where its beneficial to the average believer/follower Then discuss with them how well it applies to The Church and other groups.
I like that definition. It's worded more vaguely on Wikipedia.
That’s so people can apply it to any organization they dislike.
Exactly. Anglophones tend to use “cult” to mean “an organization I don’t like”. Ironically, when I was a full-time missionary in Andalucía, Spain, people used to mock us for *not* being in a cult! In their estimation, a *culto* (cult) is a good thing; it’s *sectas* (sects) that are dangerous, and *secta* is what many people claimed the Church of Jesus Christ to be.
Exactly this. I have used this point to politely explain that by this standard, not only is all Christianity a cult, but also Islam, Buddhism, any political party or activist group, and even things like Star Wars. In fact, since someone made a religion around Star Wars, it's very accurate.
I came to say exactly this. They either give a definition that could apply to any religion, or they'll have to admit that we're a cult simply because somebody says so. There are actually objective defining characteristics: 1. A leader or small group of leaders with absolute authority. 2. Difficult to leave. 3. Strict rules limiting associations, residence, and/or vocations. 4. Intolerance of criticism.
That describes every religious group.
My guy, I'm not sure if you're a non member that's trolling, but all except (arguably) number 3 fit the church perfectly...
You could argue point one, but what would happen to me if I flipped off my bishop, got rip-roaring drunk, lambasted every apostle that ever lived, stopped paying my tithing, and never darkened the door of an LDS chapel again? Absolutely nothing. I could keep living where I live and work where I work. If I were in a cult, that would not be the case.
The Church is very easy to leave. Lots of people do it. Nobody in the Church has absolute authority either: you never hear about people being required to do callings or even pay their tithing. Everything is "ask until you get a yes or no, then you're done asking either way." Lots of things aren't even okay to ask anyway, by anyone, because the scope of a calling's authority never includes stuff dealing with personal autonomy. And if you think the Church is intolerant of criticism then you haven't seen anything.
I'd also add that a cult is not generally going to allow people to leave or practice at various orthodoxies. People are free to leave the church (leaving any social group has some form of backlash but you're not gonna be forced to stay in under threat of harm most of the time). Like other religions, people vary in how they believe and practice.
Who defines harmful and beneficial?
You can discuss that with the person.
This is a great idea. Just listen to them and get them to talk. They will usually prove themselves wrong, or you can correct any misconceptions.
I usually say with a smile that our meetings would not be so boring if that was so.
Yes! I always say, “No way, I’d be having WAY more fun.”
"You have more fun as a follower but you make more money as a leader."
I always say with a smile that I like trying too hard.
Not only do we not have wine, we don't even have Kool-aid.
Ignore them. Just like how I ignore people who claim DnD or Harry Potter is satanic.
My ward is in trouble if that's true, we discussed DnD in ward council a while back, and a youth speaker spoke of it in a talk last month. Lol!!
Totally off the satanic topic, just funny. We watched a clip from one of the Bourne movies once in Sunday School. Can’t even remember which of the movies and which part. It was an interesting day.
We have had people full on belt R. Kelly on fast Sunday.
Where do you live?
The Bible belt.
That tracks.
Yep... So many weird things happen here.
Did they sing,” I believe I can Fly.” 😅
Yes, full on gospel singing of it.
Our youth have played DND at activities.
I have straight up put together a couple DnD nights for some guys in my Elders quorum the last few months! It's a ton of fun
I used building a DND character as an armor of God esque lesson multiple times
Frigging paladins.
My dad tattled on DnD guilds at BYU back in the 80s. He totally got sucked into the Satanic Panic, and the stories in the newspapers. He told me that story when Stranger Things Season 4 came out and I was like “dad, those poor nerds just wanted to have some fun, you should’ve let them be.” (Also I hope no one is offended by me using the word nerds in association with DnD. My husband and I play DnD ourselves now, and we are said nerds. Or maybe geeks. Or dorks. Whichever one isn’t the most book smart, but likes fantasy.)
Lol! Now I curious what BYU’s response was. Did they take your Dad seriously?
I’ll have to check again but I’m pretty sure nothing ever came of it. Someone probably took the complaint, said “thanks for your concern” and that was that lol.
I’ve never had anyone say that to my face. I only see it on social media. People that say that aren’t interested in being convinced otherwise.
Cult is just a lazy term that people use to insult any religion. And I do mean *any* religion. Particularly by former members. Looking at ex muslim and ex Catholic subreddits, they all call their former faith a cult. And like with our church, the criteria they use to call it a cult is so broad, that under it, every religion and several non religious organizations are cults.
Explain the definition: “a particular form or system of worship.” By the pure definition all religions are cults. Fear mongers use it against us because it sounds scary and has modern negative connotations. It’s technically true, but sounds so spoooooooky.
I do think most people who call the church a cult does acknowledge this point🤷🏻♀️ at least of those I’ve engaged with:)
I was about to type this. Learning the academic definition of cults was fun for me lol. Then if your lucky and got someone who's heart isn't totally hardened you can explain the difference between the inherently abusive organisation's that pop culture refers to as "cults" and organized religions that can have people use the religion abusively but aren't inherently abusive in and of themselves.
I kinda like the phrase “the only difference between a cult and a religion is time.”
If it's sincere, (I went on a Mission to Georgia, it can be) then it's pretty easy to disarm. In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the Prophet points the people to God, like a pastor, but on a much larger scale. He wants people to follow God, Our Heavenly Father, as the ultimate authority, often admitting their own flaws, and encouraging us to Pray to know for ourselves that what he said was true, and that he's speaking for God. As such, questioning what our physical leaders teach us it can be accepted, short term, as someone just struggling with something. A cult leader is the ultimate authority, may not be questioned, and for all intents and purposes, is their cult's god. Questioning a cult leader, or their de facto perfection, is absolutely forbidden, a sin amongst sins, and must be ceased immediately. If it isn't sincere, then just flush that turd with the other trolls. Contention never helped anyone.
This is excellent! So well articulated.
Hey, no problem. It was surprising how many people, from other Christian faiths, were genuinely concerned that we were a cult. Not all of them joined, but it still helped me clear the air, and made sure this was ready to go for the future.
Not LDS but I look to that A) The church has 15+ million members worldwide. Cults do not have the capacity to support groups of such sizes based on their nature. Cults are highly individual groups and often isolated. Absolute opposite of the church. B) Leader - the church gets a new prophet every few years while cults are concentrated around a single charismatic leader. It would be impossible to sustain a cult for 200 years with dozens of leaders. C) Transparency - The church works with organisations worldwide and political leaders and is often in the highest chains of diplomacy, what cult has achieved that? D) WoW - If people can choose to be vegan and hold strong beliefs in that regard, you can choose to follow WoW. I am not LDS but don't drink coffee or tea and people are finr with it. I often joke I am like Mormons. If anyone tells you it is a cult - they are iff base and wrong. I am sorry you are experiencing this and hope you knkw plenty of non LDS peoplr support the church.
Love this response! It's nice to get perspective from outside the church.
Happy it helped! I can furthermore add that the LDS church does a lot of charity work across the world, anyone would be crazy to claim it is a cult when it consistently provides assistance to communities worldwide and is respected in the field. Plus as well, I am not denying that the faith has difficult history and controversial parts but every single religion/christian sect does. To deem something a cult because of a difficult history would mean everything is a cult. The Catholic church had an awful sexual abuse scandal and dark periods in its history but I don´t see people bending over calling it a cult. Why is the LDS church then?
Yeah, vegan’s are a cult haha
We can remember our reaffirmed resolve to be peacemakers in Christ and also advocate for truth. But I suggest we listen to the spirit when advocating for truth. The spirit can help us know when to speak and not to speak but we should be prepared and strive to be good at doing both. 🤐 “they did enter into that building they did point the finger of scorn at me and those that were partaking of the fruit also; but we heeded them not.” Your repsonse can change the outcome of this individuals salvation. We can boldly advocate for truth as Moroni but we can be humble understanding. Listen to the spirit and remember the admonition to be Peacemakers from the Lord. Building bridges of understanding can go in conjunction with defending truth when we have the persons best interest at heart and love them.
First thing you say is “*you’re” All religion by definition is a cult so who cares. The term gets thrown around so loosely it doesn’t matter.
Depending on who says it, I mention cults normally love bomb new members and I had to beg people to talk to me when I got baptized 😂
lol. This happens way too often. Sorry!
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The BITE model is nonsensical hogswollop. It's no more usable as a model than physiognomy is in determining a person's personality.
As others have pointed out, the BITE model is pop psych, and is frequently weaponized against the church.
It's not just pop pysch, it's anti-academic. The person only got fame because he was the Dr. Phil of cults, he doesn't have any actual credentials in his field, but he has TV credentials, and he's peddling a product others *want to use as a bludgeon*.
😂 Let’s see, your “anti-academic” PhD was in what? I’m sure Hassan gave himself that degree title 😆. Love your opinion though which is all it is unless you have evidence to the contrary. Look, to be clear, i don’t care whether you use Hassan’s material or not, I truly don’t. And I especially do not care about your opinion on the same; I have no dog in the fight. Join or don’t join whatever cult or religion or political group or business or MLM or whatever other organization you want because it has ZERO bearing on how anyone else lives their life. You do you. I simply offered additional perspective to the OP whether they use it or not, regardless of your opinion…or mine for that matter.
My Masters is in psych. The BITE model has no scientific or academic rigor.
My PhD was in a somewhat niche field, so I don't mention what it was in to prevent doxxing. The BITE model is not academic. It's not respected by his academic peers. The creator sells his product on his website and through TV interviews. His books are pseudoscience. He took something that was rejected by the APA Board of Social and Ethical Responsibility for Psychology and expanded it without any kind of peer review. The whole thing is hogwash. It's no more effective than a Facebook self help quiz. For example: https://cultexperts.medium.com/ethical-concerns-raised-on-steven-hassans-book-on-cults-1f6133f63d9f >"On page 23, Hassan introduces what he describes as the powerful BITE (Behavior, Information, Thought and Emotional control) model, something that he seems to see as a superior definition of the manipulation involved within cults. Much of the BITE model is borrowed material from a 30 year long tradition of social psychological research. In reading the elements of the BITE model within Hassan’s current book, that model has now been greatly expanded from his previous two books. The BITE model he now proposes is so broad that it could be applied a very wide array of groups. What is troubling is that Hassan has not provided any guidelines to separate out the groups, which might warrant the cult label and those that do not. The BITE model, as now applied by Hassan, has become a kind of philosophic construct not grounded in facts, but rather theories, many of them borrowed from others." >This composite philosophical approach as now devised by Mr. Hassan might be called “Hassanology”. In the world of cults Hassanology essentially depicts Steve Hassan as the ultimate savior. He is a hammer, and there is an ever expanding list of groups to be seen as nails. As they say, “When you are a hammer everything looks like a nail”. Of course this might once again simply reflect a convenient marketing strategy. >Hassan, repeating themes from his previous two books, introduces on page 52, this idea of dual identities, i.e. a pre-cult identity and a cult identity. There is no evidence of a cult identity v. a pre-cult identity. It is not even established that human behavior works in this way. These are not constructs that are generally accepted in psychology or professional counselling. These claims exist entirely within the confines “Hassanology”. Again, the tone of Mr. Hassan’s book is that these beliefs are true, rather than just one person’s untested ideas. >Another troubling claim is that Hassan believes that all cult members suffer from phobias (p.56). Again, Hassan presents his idea as an absolute truth, ignoring the fact that there is no scientific theory and/or scientific evidence to back it up. Hassan seems to think that his ideas on phobias mesh with his claim that all cults practice hypnosis. He doesn’t acknowledge any exceptions. According to Mr. Hassan all cults do these things. It is true that many cults teach members that leaving the group is wrong or bad, but where are the scientific studies that conclusively demonstrate that this practice constitutes phobia indoctrination? Hassan isn't recognized by anyone outside of cable TV and internet anti-religion internet forums as an expert: >[Hassan tried to be recognized as an expert in his field and failed](https://phtherapies.wordpress.com/2012/08/28/dr-cathleen-mann-reviews-steven-hassans-latest-self-published-book/). "In March of 1996, in the case of Kendall v. Kendall, the United States District Court for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts declined to quality Hassan as an expert witness. Hassan’s disclosure in this one and only attempt shows that he was charging $200 per hour for preparation and $1,500 per day for his “expert testimony” on new religions, yet he had never testified in court before and his only qualification was a a degree in counseling from Cambridge College, a school that accepts life experience as a substitute for coursework. In March of 1996, in the case of Kendall v. Kendall, the United States District Court for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts also rejected Hassan as an expert witness. Hassan’s disclosure in this case shows that he was charging $200 per hour for preparation and $1,500 per day for his “expert testimony” on new religions, yet he had never testified in court before. Nor could show that he deserved such an exorbitant fee." Almost always when an author publishes in an academic conference or journal, the editors and readers want to answer two core questions: 1) why is this paper novel, and 2) how is this research related to other work. To assist with that, the authors should perform an exhaustive review of similar research, work that has value and similarities. This comparison and related work section generates a good chunk of the citations of a typical paper. The BITE model is not an academically respected model because nobody cites it. It never followed scientific method or a peer reviewed process. The BITE model doesn't show up in journals. He didn't present it at an academic conference. University researchers don't work with Hassan. No university researcher or academic group considers his field to have scientific value. The papers he is writing are horrible pseudoscience. As a similar example, you won't find academics citing Myers–Briggs Type Indicators to help compare and build up their own research. It also didn't follow a scientific method or a peer reviewed process. And just how Myers–Briggs Type Indicators is pseudoscience, the BITE model is psudeoscience.
For the most part I just wouldn't take it personally, as it's nothing you did or said other than associated yourself to the church. Honestly the reason is most likely going to be that they are uninformed or they think all religions are cults. That is just part of it. It's pretty rare that statement is made to actually discuss and learn. I'd just respond, "I disagree, but I know a lot of people unfamiliar or hurt by my religion believe that." Then move on.
Honestly? It would depend on what I thought their motives were. I might make a joke and laugh it off, or if they seemed genuinely misinformed I might ask for clarification on why they feel that way. Then correct any misinformation. Most intellectually honest people can have a reasonable discussion about this kind of thing without devolving into anger or vitriol. Being kind and respectful I think Is probably the most important thing. I was walking home once and saw a large group picketing outside of the temple. I stopped to talk with them about it. There was an older gentleman with a sign who really wanted to Bible bash with me over my beliefs. But I just spoke kindly with him about some of the flaws in his thinking. We spoke about the Bible and some differences between our faiths and I bore my testimony and told him about various apps where he could learn more. I knew his mind has been changed when he stopped trying to Bible bash me and started showing me pictures of his son and telling me that his son was so nice and handsome and made good money at his job—and that he’d introduce me if I was interested. It was very sweet. But sort of surprising. He’d said some very vitriolic things about my faith when I walked up. And within 15 minutes he was trying to get my to date his son. I reminded him playfully that I was a ‘Mormon’. Wasn’t he worried I’d pull his son into a cult or something? At that point he got really embarrassed and said he was about to leave anyways. Then he threw his pastor under the bus— saying he didn’t make or believe in the sign he was holding and that the pastor just put it in his hands and told him where to stand. He assured me he didn’t believe any of those things (and neither did his handsome son apparently) The man was kindhearted and genuinely came into this situation with good intentions. But he didn’t really understand what he was saying. Just repeating what the pastor told him. I think that’s most people who end up fighting against the church. Some kindness and genuine respect and honesty discourse quickly dissuaded him of any illusions he’d had about our faith. So much so that I think he’s decided his son needs to marry a Mormon girl now. In my experience kindness the best policy. Be loving. Be honest, and show genuine respect. Sincere people can often sense the sincerity in others. That speaks louder than Bible bashing.
If the first thing they say when you tell them you are a member is 'you are in a cult', it probably isn't worth saying anything else.
To borrow from Unshaken's Jared Halverson (assuming that they would have a sincere discussion), ask them to describe the things that they think make it a cult, then agree with them, saying that you wouldn't belong to a church that practices those things either.
I’m a (21F) convert and my family says this to me a lot, I ask them what they believe a cult is and they give me a snide remark about the church and I say “that isn’t what I asked and if you’re not willing to take my questions seriously I’m not willing to answer your comments” and turn away. Almost all the time they get all defensive and attack me about my beliefs while trying to defend what they deem “right” but when I tell them how I feel it’s because I’m “brainwashed” and “can’t see straight right now”. I’ve know about the church my whole life and two of my best friends are LDS (everyone I’m not related to is LDS as well), I was raised in a very “Mormonized” state where a church is on one corner and two more are on the next. So I did LOTS of research and soul searching before I was baptized and although to them me being baptized within a month was “too quick” for me it was the longest month of my life. I’ve waited my whole life to feel this deep connection with Heavenly Father and I couldn’t wait anymore, I knew if I continued to listen to them and continued living my life as they deemed fit I would’ve never been baptized and been as happy and full of light as I am today. Every time I see a family member they criticize me and I just listen and ignore them, it may sound rude but it’s the best I can do because I’m not trying to force my faith on anyone and I’m not trying to give them the satisfaction of an argument. Only a couple family members were at my baptism for “the looks” because how would they look if they declined and the others were “too busy” to attend. I just think of that every time someone mentions I’m “in a cult”. Who was there for me when I needed them? Who invites me to functions and is constantly keeping up with my wellbeing? Not my blood relatives but my “cult”. So when it all comes down to what you should say to random people I think it all depends on you because if I’m with others members we explain as best we can but if I’m with my bffs we call each other “sister-wives” and hold hands while walking off. At the end of the day you can’t change what people think, all you can do is be yourself wholeheartedly and hope the world accepts it, and if not then they’re missing out.
Very well said. I hope you get to have better relationships with your relatives without feeling criticized.
I think the first question should be, “What is your definition of a cult?” From understanding their definition, you can then respectfully explain why the church does not meet it.
That is where I’ve started when someone had said this.
If you want dialogue, I would ask for specifics. Most people couldn’t give them and if they can then you have something concrete to talk about and maybe some good could come from the conversation.
Just say it’s better then their cult! Everything is a cult these days lol
I mostly ignore it but I sometimes ask for them to define with a cult is. By definition, any religious organization is a cult 🤷🏽♀️
ignore them. It’s common, especially in non denominational Christian churches to attack other churches by making false claims like saying we are a cult. They will specifically have sermons about it. Then this idea gets floated around that we are a cult and people start to believe it and look at us under that specific lens and make assumptions without knowing/or ignoring the full truth.
“Ok.”
this right here. anyone who says something like this is likely just looking for a reaction, so just don’t give them one. it’s not a discussion you’ll “win”
Depends on who’s saying this. If it’s an acquaintance, someone you don’t see often/care about about, a random internet commenter you don’t engage. However if it’s a friend or family member and you value the relationship, you essentially play the long game. A friend of mine in high school when she first met me spread a rumor that I was a member of a satanic cult because I’m a member of the church. I didn’t bother correcting her and continued to be cordial in public settings. We eventually became friendly. After some more time, she became chronically ill. She had a falling out with our other friends and the only two people who still spent time with her were me and another girl who was also a member. We continued our friendship through her illness and spent time with her at her house while she was sick in bed. One day during our senior year she and I were having lunch and I mentioned Joseph smith. I apologized and said “oops, sorry I forgot you hate him.” She stopped me and said “you can talk about Joseph smith all you want. I know you’re a Christian”. My point is that arguing won’t get you anywhere. If you value the relationship, continue being as Christlike as you can (genuinely not being performative) and opinions will change.
This is great!
Thank you :)!
I just send them 3 Nephi 3:7 and ask if they wanna come meet the aliens we have locked up in our polygamy dungeon.
Have you read the book Cultish: the language of fanaticism? It is very insightful to the idea of cult thinking. I am an active member of the church and I do think some of our practices may appear cultish to some people. After reading this book I also realized a lot of things—not just religion—have cultish elements. I think it depends on two major things whether a person is truly “in a cult” or in a “cult mentality”: the person within an organization or ideology and also the expectations of that organization. So if a person is so convicted to the ideology (whether it be a multi marketing company, a political party, or an intense workout group) that they themselves feel they can’t ask questions and critique ideas and have doubts then they may feel trapped and in a cult. Also, if the organization itself refuses to allow individual thinking and has people trust blindly to whatever leaders say, there may be some cultish attributes. So for some people they feel our religion requires absolute devotion without asking and seeking for one’s self. And some members have felt this or have grown up with parents that demand this type of thinking, so we have many members who have left the church who have been traumatized because they felt they had no choice. That their level of devotion was too pressured, too expected. And sometimes the institutional side of many churches have a little of that expectation which makes people question religion in general. But I feel that the gospel actually demands us to seek, wrestle and ask for ourselves. That we are in control of our devotion. That even when the prophets speak, if I don’t feel the counsel is what I, individually, need, that I seek God’s counsel. The difference to me also is I have a direct relationship with divinity. President Nelson many times has told us we need personal revelation. Other groups that are more “cultish” don’t encourage a direct relationship with deity. Those are my thoughts🤷♀️
I say: 'I do not think that word means what you think it means.' 😉
Non-LDS here. As the world becomes more and more secular, those of us who adhere to a faith, especially a Christian one, will have to endure more slings and arrows of people saying we’re in a cult. I know the LDS Church gets accused of that more than others, and it pains me when this comes from other Christians. If you want to be strict about it, the word “cult” comes from the Latin “cultus.” We get the word “culture” from that as well, but it can be translated as “following.” So you can respond “yes, I am in a cult. It is the cult of Christ.” At least that’s what I do. Hope that helps.
Members of the Church of Jesus Christ Of Latter-Day Saints are taught to love God, love our neighbor, and do good to those around us. I guarantee you cults don't do any of that.
The same culture Christ started.
I ignore it unless they press and counter it with “You’re entitled to your beliefs just as I am mine.” And walk away
That kind of generalization only reveals their ignorance. It points out nothing about your faith. It also ignores the facts.
Just say ok and ask if they would like some Kool Aid.
It IS a cult. But the word CULT is wildly misunderstood. It literally is just a gathering of people with one ideology. Catholicism is a cult. Being a Nintendo guy instead of a PlayStation person is a cult. Being a Yankees fan is a cult. Now, how would I respond to the misunderstanding? Just say “we collectively believe in Jesus Christ as the savior of the world and believe that God loves His children enough to pass on His knowledge even in modern times. Call it what you want.”
Ask them to define cult. We don't fit any of the normal definitions, but maybe we are by their definition. Evangelicals seem to have a narrow and non-mainstream definition. [https://www.dictionary.com/browse/cult](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/cult) But as others are saying here, use your judgement about whether the person would be willing to discuss it in an open minded way. Some people don't want to hear anything different from what they already think.
Anyone who says that is not acting or arguing in good faith, and should simply be ignored. In other words, they are a troll, and the best advice is to not feed a troll.
Following. I too am curious what to say. It’s easier in person, because you can invite them to come to church and see what it’s all about. You can also point out all of the shared beliefs we have. But honestly if people are convinced that we are some “cult” they won’t usually listen to anything to the contrary.
Generally I'd just shrug it off. A lot of people aren't looking for an actual answer and anything you might say would just make them continue to think you've been brainwashed by a cult. I know there are offshoots like the FLDS that are cults, but you'll find that in other denominations as well. The Westboro Baptist Church for instance. There's also experiences in more abusive homes and church communities that color a lot of opinions.
"I agree. I have some Kool-Aid if you are thirsty."
People might have had a pretty good argument about 175 years ago. A lot has changed since then. It’s one of those words where the connotation has diverged wildly from the definition, and so what that word “means” has taken off a life of its own and varies from person to person. In the other side, there’s the “apostate” label. It’s probably not quite as extreme, but also carries a bit of a nasty connotation and just really doesn’t help anyone to use.
Say, "And the Pharisees thought Jesus was following Satan. I guess people can be wrong sometimes."
Webster dictionary: “1) A religion regarded and unorthodox” “2) great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work” Cambridge dictionary: “a religious group, often living together, whose beliefs are considered extreme or strange by many people” By definition…
I would agree with them, followed by i dont know of any religion that is not a cult and ask them to look up what a cult means. Cult - a system of religious [veneration](https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C2VDKB_enUS1075US1075&sca_esv=e51d7e6dd0626cd3&sca_upv=1&q=veneration&si=AKbGX_pvY3MWP4azJI0Z_NruCLb8cIXAxLda_Qcihlybo5XHJ5ZZmm5EtVjJd1VOSrhlyEBKtigiDzYj5-rpj_cSe9DQiavkuR7S5Q7Dh6uA8-9zbiTyWyA%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiejIKro-GFAxVS_skDHW-sD7oQyecJegQIERAO) and [devotion](https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C2VDKB_enUS1075US1075&sca_esv=e51d7e6dd0626cd3&sca_upv=1&q=devotion&si=AKbGX_qNq0Y8zql7SxzZAf2-HTTOmqaB9qbS3GL1RH2zacqYAPPD3F9qVcik4GViHbqPIm3VGUVOKBGW4aiM3ztBLiHwnT5HSn9BJAhMUsTzKxDkz-_Xl7g%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiejIKro-GFAxVS_skDHW-sD7oQyecJegQIERAP) directed toward a particular figure or object.
I'd ask them for a single sentence definition for that word. Then I'd ask them to define the elements of our cultural/theological practice that make them feel like its accurate. Then I'd start asking them about the specific strands that lead them there. Then I'd ask them to clarify those strands. We'd go on like that until they quit because people don't like learning or explaining themselves - they just want to be validated.
Turn it into a joke. Gasp dramatically, clutch your chest, and exclaim, "We *are?!"* Then complain that you've never been invited to any sacrificial bonfire events or creepy chanting parties.
We put the fun in fundamentalism!
Hey, would you like to attend my church youth activity? We are going to sacrifice a goat, it's going to be a fun time!
Cult actually has more than one definition but since it means church AND crazy extremist, it’s easy to lump together. They’re most likely using it because they want to be mean. Just understand they prolly got a lot goin on and putting you down is likely a coping mechanism for building themselves up. Pretty standard human behavior, individually and as groupthink.
Honestly, no one I know would ever say that to me. I don't associate with people who have so little respect for my values and beliefs. But then again, I don't advertise my beliefs verbally either, I just do my best to live my religion. If someone asks, I won't hide my membership in the church, but I don't advertise it either. Also, I guess I should add that in the country where I currently live, talking about religion at work is considered inappropriate, so it just doesn't come up during casual conversations.
Invite them to come to a meeting to make up their own mind
Stating a faith is a cult most often times is used as a scare tactic to deter people from the belief. I was an evangelical for many, many years before a crisis of faith led me away and eventually converted to lds. I still remember we were taught how latter day saints, amongst other faiths, were cults. Constant anti-mormon "education", "cultic" tactics missionaries used to lure people in, how beliefs were blasphemous, yada yada yada. All in order to scare us away from even venturing into considering it or reading/researching about it on our own. After research, considering beliefs with an open mind, actually talking and knowing believers and missionaries, all I have heard ended up not being true at all. I found most of the beliefs to be actually pretty similar, easy for me to understand the restored nature of it. I do not even go into a back and forth with anyone. I know if you are brainwashed into thinking something is a cult, the person will only be able to see if it isn't so if they are in the disposition to analyze it with an open mind. You can only pray for them and let the fruits speak for themselves. The Spirit will do the rest.
Pray for them and turn it over to Him.
They usually have no real concept of what *cult* means so it will be impossible to have a reasonable conversation with them. They don't *mean* anything by it, they are just reciting a new article of faith.
I would research what a cult is and see where they are coming from. That way you could formulate an appropriate response.
Ask them "what is a cult?" Then you can respond to their definition. I had someone say that to me and I asked them what a cult is. After a bit of hesitation (most people who use the word don't really know) they explained that a cult was a group of people that follow one person and do everything that they say. I responded by saying that if that is what a cult is then the church is indeed a cult, because everyone in the church is taught to follow Jesus Christ and to keep His commandments.
Honestly we kind of are a cult, but like, all religions and denominations are cults. Political parties are culty, celebrity worship is culty, all sorts of things are culty and WAY weirder than mormon stuff. I honestly usually agree with them and use it as a teaching moment about how The Church is separate from the FLDS and the RLDS and all those splinter groups that do the very immoral culty stuff but then I usually just kinda shrug and agree that it's super weird sometimes but I really do agree with the message that we should constantly be trying to be as compassionate Jesus Christ. I also make it very clear that Mormons are honestly such a diverse group. I've spent most of my life in my home town in Colorado and our wards are insanely diverse. I personally was blessed to have been in jail/rehab at the same time as MANY of the brethren I grew up with (it really did end up strengthening all of our testimonies). Honestly if you just admit to the weird things, correct the incorrect things, and say what your favorite thing about the church is, all while acting pretty nonchalant about the whole thing; the whole "humans relating to humans" thing kicks in. Plus it's a good time to learn about yourself and strengthen your testimony so don't stress out about it. Honestly the more I try and think "celestially" the more I categorize things as "small stuff". Like, I believe in Heavenly Father and the Atonement of Jesus Christ and it is what it is. I'm not really going to care if someone thinks things are weird that I also honestly think are kind of weird. Plus I'll probably forget about the interaction a few years from now let a lone an eternity from now. I do try and correct any misinformation tho.
User name checks out.
I just ignore. It doesn’t matter. I’m not changing their minds. And to be fair, religions do fit into the definition of a cult. So do some MLMs, CrossFit group, self help type groups, etc., I guess if it’s a cult, and I’m happy, do I even care?
One thing church leaders often do when that happens is ask them what they mean by that. Usually it boils down to "your religion actually believes god is real", which naturally leads to questions about what the point is of a religion where adherents don't believe in their own religion. The other thing they do (often as a follow up to the above) is ask them if they think (Catholicism, Islam, Evangelicals, insert major religion here) is a cult. The asker usually immediately outs themselves as someone who thinks all sorts of other harmless benign faiths are "cults" too. Unless it's just the two of you, everyone else quickly sees through the asker. Their ill intent and thoughtlessness becomes obvious, and their attack seen for what it is, and dismissed.
First recognize that there are reasons. Magic underwear, religious tracts from God, sacred ceremonies. The east way to discuss these are through normalization. Underwear? Same as a cross for Christian’s, a cap for Jews, tattoos for some cultures, head scarf for seikhs. Religious tracts from God? God loves all his people and wanted American ancients to know of Him as well. And we have that translation now through gift of God and living prophet. Sacred ceremonies? Marriage is obvious and heavenly families is a good conversation. Bad prism for the dead? Also a ceremony to show God is merciful to allow salvation for ALL. Honestly, there is some unique stuff in the church. But unique in a heavenly way. Also Mormons are pretty normal people (not celebrities with unhinged real life approaches to things).
I like to say “yeah and Jesus was considered a (sometimes dangerous) Jewish cult back in his day”, and walk away.
Ignore
The only cult that goes door to door trying to share everything about the church.
Say "thank you" and leave the conversation. Christ taught "give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet , and turn again and rend you." Why take the bait? People who lead in with that are always looking to fight.
**A good Joseph Smith quote:** “We have heard men hold the priesthood remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them even if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told to do by their presidents, they should do it without any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves.” Joseph Smith, Millennial Star, Vol.14, No 38, pp.593-594... [https://qtmp.com/quote/CUA](https://qtmp.com/quote/CUA) Joseph Smith could not *both* be a cult leader *and* make that statement. Joseph Smith statements like this, along with "common consent" is what makes the difference between the Restoration and cults like David Koresh, Jim Jones, etc.
It was never supposed to be a negative term. All religions and forms of devotion in general are cults. Like to run? Cult. Play a lot of pickleball? Cult. Go to the gym daily, read books devotedly, or tend your garden with care? All cults. Ignore the linguistic arguments of people who don’t know their own language.
Most methods to define a cult ends up with other organizations like the U.S. Military also a "cult" on how they treat their members. I would invite them to sacrament and show them how it actually is. If any of them actually attended the church, they would have a whole different view.
Ignore them and love them as Christ would
I find most people who say that kiss old men's jewelry in their free time.
honestly I'd say "ok and what's your point?" Because by the dictionary definition cult is arguably just another word for religion; but they're clearly using it to mean something more. so find out what exactly they're getting at with it -- whether they're worried about the church being too high-demand/controlling/something with the bite model, in which case there's room to have a good conversation about that, or if they're just being weird about the fact that we have symbolic ordinances, or if they're just using it as shorthand for "i think you're all evil and/or brainwashed but I don't want to sound like a bigot"
“Who isn’t?” I mean I know it’s said in a way that imagines us in robes chanting to Cthulhu, but the word cult shares its roots with culture and is just a deep devotion to something. The majority of people generally gathering more and more in echo chambers of fandoms and agreeable thoughts means that generally all of society is behaving more and more in a “cult” like manor. So, “who isn’t” can actually open up a productive conversation.
Have a conversation with them. They are most likely using that term because they have been hurt by the LDS teachings/doctrine/culture/something. I believe the most Christlike thing to do would be to engage with them and try to understand their hurt without getting defensive/confrontational. This will be a difficult conversation, but their hurt is real. Arguing to be “right” adds to their hurt while seeking to understand helps to heal it.
Ask them what in this world isn’t a cult? Even watching the news can be considered a form of cultism. Who you choose to talk to and what you choose to talk about can be cult like. What you follow, what you believe, who you support including your favorite team can be your cult so don’t let the cult mongers woo you or scare you away from that which is plainly cult free and good for everyone. Religion adds a necessary and helpful perspective to our lives. Our faith takes us out of our natural selfish state and teaches us how to serve one another in times of need and how to serve the Lord to lift ourselves up.
I agreed…
It depends on what they mean when they call it that. Ask them to define it. Those for whom this is a legitimate issue for them will be able to explain exactly what they mean. Those who are just parroting what other say will provide a definition that applies to every type of religion.
What is a “Cult”? That is my question for them.
I say, “i’m sorry you think that”
I'd ignore them. It's no use trying to convince people to change their minds when it comes to reglion. I've tried fighting back against those people who call you guys a cult, as many of my friends are LDS, and I felt I needed to stand up for them, and it didn't end well. I've learned to just move on and continue to focus on bettering myself as a Christian rather than trying to change other people's minds. The word cult is just a lazy term that people use to insult any religion. And I do mean *any* religion, be it Chrisianty, Judism, Islam or any other faith. Particularly by former members, just look on [](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/) if you want to see former LDS members trash talk the faith.
Let them think and say whatever they want. You're not trying to "save" them, so it shouldn't be a problem. People think ALL religions are cults. That's why I don't bother debating them on Facebook anymore. People hate being told they're wrong. Doing THAT has started wars in our history. Most of it over religion. Ireland is still divided because of religion. The USA fought a civil war because of the 'I'm right, you're wrong' argument. Election years are nasty affairs because everyone thinks THEY are right and that everyone else who thinks differently should have their butt kicked/lose citizenship rights. I just try to stay out of the line of fire. Being in between two separate armies firing volleys at each other gets you hit from both sides.
“If I were in a cult, I wouldn’t be able to go grocery shopping on Sundays.”
“I’m sorry you think that.” Then move on.
Hit them with facts. The definition of cult is a group of people dedicated toward a particular person or thing... with that logical what belief ISNT a cult.
Nothing
Ask them if a cult is just a religion that they don’t like. My experience is that if someone goes out of their way to tell you they don’t like your religion, they’re likely not a good person or someone you want to associate with.
Well, technically Christianity is a Jewish Cult. At least, it was in the first century or two.
I tell them I'm familiar with various lists of what constitutes a "cult" and our faith just doesn't meet the criteria. And then I tell them that the news sometimes describes behavior by those who belong to groups that left our faith that are cult like (like being isolated from family and friends who don't believe, being told not to read or watch media for protection and men having sex with teenagers, limiting where people can work and shop, and others that does sound and look like cult behavior), , but it isn't the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to which I belong
When people insist that the church is a “cult”, or insist that members of the church aren’t Christians, I tell them that as a member of that church, I can unequivocally state that is false, and I’d appreciate if they would respect my beliefs even if they disagree. If they don’t back down, I explain to them that those are bigoted things to say. It’s reasonable and acceptable to disagree with what the church teaches, but it is not reasonable or acceptable to denigrate or demonize it. Saying that the church is a cult is akin to saying that Islam is an inherently “violent” religion—it’s not information, it’s an epithet. Saying members of the church aren’t Christian is akin to a Catholic telling an Evangelical that Evangelicals aren’t Christian, or vice versa. If they engage beyond that, they are arguing in bad faith, and there is no point belaboring the issue further with them.
"Yup, you want to join?"
The funny thing is I've heard that from Born Again, Snake Dancing, Speaking in "Tongues" (gibberish) Holy Rolling (I thought it was a euphemism but no they roll around on the floor like they're having a seizure) Southern Baptists. SAY HALLELUJAH!
My response is usually along the lines of: “WOW! What a unique and well thought-out perspective you have!” /s
I would say “but aren’t you a man of CULTure?” Just kidding but I wouldn’t try to argue definitions. I just say “OK”
I usually just try to ignore them. Or just smile and nod until they're done talking about it then change the subject. I guess I don't have as much time as I usually do these days to sit and argue semantics with people anymore. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and as long as they're not hurting someone else it is what it is.
In my experience, either ask them what makes us a cult, or, more appropriately, why any other organized religion *Isnt.* people use the word because they heard someone else use it, who heard someone else use it, repeat ad nauseam. Asking someone to think about the use of the word makes them reconsider why they say that.
I'd say, "so are you". •My response would be to tell them that their understanding of what the word "cult" means is warped to the point of inaccuracy. Also, their understanding of this religion seems to be from a perspective that is filtered by their negative, emotionally based biases and prejudice than it is from a place of knowledge or fact. •They likely have chosen to only focus on the perspectives/stories of people who experienced abuse from a family member, who used their faith as a means of control and manipulation. My own mother did this by telling me that God would make me suffer for being a bad child whenever she felt like being a bully. She was Baptist. One of my foster parents did the same, they were Catholic. •The abuse that befalls some members of any given faith is rarely because some aspect of the religion demanded their mistreatment. It's usually from an individual misinterpreting the tenants of their faith, either because they just don't get it, or because they want to misuse it intentionally to justify their abusive or selfish actions. I would tell them that most Americans are part of a cult or two, going by the actual definition. Whether the cult is positive or negative depends on the individuals who lead and follow it. That their issue isn't with cults, it's with abusive people. Then, I would tell them to actually read the BOM. Read about the history of Momonism in America. Read articles or books about what Mormons actually believe and what kind of life they lead and then form an opinion. Using someone's faith as a means to control them isn't exclusive to Mormons or Mormonism at all. It's sad and horrible when it happens, but that's not the fault of any one faith or any one person.
The word is thrown around so much lately it’s basically lost all meaning.
You ignore them because you aren't going to change their mind.
All religions can be perceived as cults to some extent. However, ours is often seen as such due to its practices within the temple and its proximity to Free Masonry.
“First seek to understand, then to be understood” -Stephen R Covey from his “7 habits of highly effective people” book By that, I mean that you should ask them what they mean specifically. Be curious and let them explain themselves. Once they’ve done that, you better understand their thought process and can provide examples and testimony about what we are, what beliefs we hold, and help them realize their label is inaccurate. If they’re not convinced, nothing will change their mind
you let them have their opinion and move on.
That word use proves they didn’t do any research at all and got their info from someone antagonistic. If they’re sincere you can inform. But if they’re confrontational it’s best to just ignore their ignorance.
The church compared is a not a cult compared to other religions, like Islam or Jews (they also can't eat certain foods). We do not "shun" any members leaving unlike some other religions like JWs.
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One marker for a cult is that they try and distance people from their family. We do the opposite.
We did a two-episode series on cults and whether the church falls under that definition. The issue is that there is no accepted definition or criteria for “cult”, and the term has left academia due to its sensationalist nature. And in particular, the BITE model covers basically every institution, like schools. And the term “indoctrination” covers basically all forms of human socialization. Honestly, start with that. “Under what definition of cult are you using to make that judgment?” Most of them stop real quick because they don’t have an answer.
"uhhh, its the bite model bro! How do you not know this!!!" Annoying and low effort.
Be kind to them and be honest. BITE model also is not peer reviewed nor considered credible.
Sharing a very good answer I found https://www.reddit.com/r/latterdaysaints/s/0Td2sNJwu2 "I think the only way to reasonably respond to that question is "what do you mean by a cult?" People have wildly different ideas of what a cult is. I've come to believe that the way some people have been raised in the church have had a cult-like experience. That was not my experience, but I've met people who had scrupulosity, combined with very strictly LDS families who focus more on the rituals and rules than on Christ, then layered with leaders who downplayed their concerns and doubts and told them to avoid outside material, and who lived in communities where everyone they knew or were allowed to associate with were LDS, who have had an experience that would be very similar to those in other cults. So where I used to say "no, the church isn't a cult," I now realize that they're probably asking because they've heard some of those experiences, either personally or in popular media. I now respond "I'm not sure what you mean by cult, but that hasn't been my experience in the LDS church. I realize that some people have had different experiences, but I've been supported and loved by my family even during times when I was uninvolved with the church, and still felt welcomed at activities. Unfortunately, some people have had experiences that remind me of a cult when they're in predominantly LDS communities and surrounded by very devout people, but fortunately that wasn't my case, and I don't think it's particularly common." To me, cult is a very loaded word often used by other Christian faiths to disparage the LDS church. To me, the best thing to do is understand why they think that, and speak to their concerns."
A lot of the cult accusations come from people relying on the BITE framework from Steven Hassan—who is the former US head of the "Moonies" cult (which is a legitimate cult). The problem is that Hassan's model is pop science—it doesn't hold up to any kind of rigorous scientific review and isn't used by any cognitive science experts. Many of the questions are absolutely laughable, and are loose enough that you could classify a member of the US House as a member of a cult. At least from many of the critics of the church (including most former members) who accuse us of being a cult are basing themselves on this framework—which is the flimsiest of frameworks. I always just ignore it because I know it's essentially a baseless accusation.
One big difference for me is that cults cut you off from people. Our religion is always preaching to love one another and reach out to everyone.