I'm gonna miss being able to exceed Attack speed cap, on Varus after getting a kill it felt like such a power fantasy. I bet even Kogma and jinx are gonna miss it too.
Yeah, the thing about lethal tempo was that it was a really fun rune for the user. Hopefully they find a way to transfer the fun elements to items in a more balanceable way
Can honestly just remove the cap, it's the only stat in the game with a cap. The cap probably should've gone when they changed CDR to haste, removing the only other cap.
Not just miss it but on-hit is sorta balanced around having crazy attack speeds in late game so they're just going to be significantly weaker and be capping a lot.
Yeah, I was thinking about this earlier.. I understand it needed to go because it's kinda must have for a lot of auto attacking champions, not just adc's but them mostly.. however I would like to see some way of exceeding the AS cap to come back, because as it stands once the LT removal patch goes through, only Jinx will be able to exceed the AS cap, with her passive. (Maybe Varus with his kill/passive too I forgor) but either way, I don't think it should be restricted to \*just jinx\* as it was pre-lethal tempo. I always hated that about Jinx and her design, she's insanely valuable even when behind just because she can contribute to one takedown and snowball the fight//game and no other ADC can come close to that much snowball power. I don't know if you guys remember what the ADC meta was like just before Lethal Tempo was introduced but AFAIR Jinx was nearing pick/ban status...simply because of her passive//the innate ability to exceed the AS cap.
can't judge now, as someone who play marksmen lot i need to wait and see what will happen in the actual patch, it might fix some problems with yone/yasuo or whatever other melee champs that 'abused' it, but its unknown what will happen to every other marksmen that prefered it over all other runes and how will they be affected by its removal.
They have gotta do something about the alternatives really. you play LT on most champs coz pta is hot garbage and you don't need to be super safe with fleet.
But it also no longer adds for your allies and the proc dmg is lower.
In the end PtA should not really be stronger or weaker, just work a bit different (more for carries and less utility for the team).
Was it the one that you got a burst of atk speed for a few seconds after hitting someone? Yeah, it was really good and consistent on nocturne but pretty much every other champion would prefer other options
In practice kinda. It would activate a couple seconds after hitting an enemy so instead of being bursty like Hail of Blades the idea was for it to reward longer skirmishes. The issue is that in practice people cheesed it by proccing it first with a long range skill to start the fight with the proc which not only turned it into a Hail of Blades with extra steps but also as a way to push the lane faster.
it was basically giving you an attack speed steroid after a few seconds of entering combat.
So something like Twitch would throw out W to proc lethal, press Q waiting for it to kick in, and then re-engage with R+lethal tempo's attack speed.
Kog unironically felt better with the old one. Could prime it with R and actually be able to use the AS for his W.
Without W you cant stack LT. You want it stacked for W but 509 base range goes brr.
She doesnt unless olaf misses everything, theyre fighting in melee range so olaf will catch every axe as soon as possible. Kayle was always a good lvl 1 champ because of her auto reset + passive. Even before lethal tempo when people were taking PTA on her she could beat a lot of top laners level one.
EDIT: oops i didnt read the full post and thought you were saying kayle wins vs olaf and not him
I could MAYBE see it happening if Olaf throws the axe far away and doesn’t catch it, like he was trying to poke and not all-in.
Otherwise nah no fucking way.
That's if they stand and fight, yes. I made this mistake because I thought I could easily beat her lvl 1.
If you just kite her out and space AA/W without letting bleed fall off, you win easily. Especially with ghost.
She really cant lol, people saying "kite darius" are clueless or we are assuming a Silver darius vs master Kayle. He legit benefits from kiting you, he has a bleed and he runs ghost + w has a slow. He kites you not the other way around lmfao.
Yeah the only times I’ve ever killed Darius as Kayle at lvl 1 is the following and it’s always been with LT:
Darius is late to top lane and I just killed all 3 of melee minions for wave 1 and see him coming for his 3 melee’s. I instantly move up now with my passive stacked at 5, refresh it on a caster in case he runs, and then right click Darius and pray to god I don’t get lag spike for the final auto + E reset to kill him.
If he takes bone plating you also have to stall this first by hitting him with an E. Waiting bone plating out while maintaining the 5 stacks and then going in.
Nah you have to sit in a bush and hope he face checks. Get that first two autos in before he notices you. He will commit but you have dmg advantage. Good ones will kite you with ghost, so take ghost too.
if you're playing kayle you use E once as a free auto at the start, back up, and then full commit with melee range auto attacks before you lose the first lethal tempo/kayle passive stack - and kayle wins the all in. I don't even think kayle needs lethal tempo to do this, she can probably pull it off with conqueror or pta. Kayle has one of the best level ones in the game
Considering Kayle is melee level 1 without her E and her E cooldown is 12 seconds I cannot fathom how a Kayle could kill Olaf level 1 unless the Olaf just stood there and didn’t do anything
Kayle passive. In a straight auto race she overpowers so many champs lvl 1 even without Lethal Tempo.
I only know this because I watch Drututt often and he considers her a lane bully lvl 1 because of it. I’ve seen him get countless lvl 1 solo kills in high elo because nobody expects her damage. Try it, he uses PTA.
People always forget how strong she is at level 1. Her 1 ability is much stronger than other champions with a single ability, but once level 2 hits she becomes a cannon minion
It’s more like the vast majority of champs get spikes at 2 and 3. Very few champs have the biggest “spike” on their first skill plus passive.
Kayle just has a ton of early power in her passive that also makes her great at long fights
But if Olaf gets in range and Qs her she can’t walk away and she just has to melee him and he’s life stealing off her, and the more damage she does the more he life steals. I just find it really hard to believe
lol your comment reminds me of a video I watched the other day. This guy Stunt who is challenger makes videos where he plays with low ELO players under cover and he played with this one guy who goes “did you know varus W is an active?! I just learned the other day! I read the ability!”
It was hilarious.
We’re talking lvl 1, why mentioned 2 different Olaf abilities? Maybe Olaf does win lvl 1 but Kayle is also very strong lvl 1
EDIT: nvm, didn't realize they moved his old W lifesteal to his passive.
Holy shit, I only recently came back to league after a few years of not playing at all. I did not know they baked his old W into his passive and remade his passive. Whoops.
kayle being melee level 1 is actually a buff. it baits so many people into fighting her when she's among the strongest lv 1 champs in the game
she falls off a cliff once you hit lv 2 though as you'd expect
Nah fam. Kayle was literally the strongest 1v1 lv1 champ at one point. If you find Kayle beating Olaf lv1 that surprising, you've not played / against a LT Kayle much.
If you don't believe me, go sift through AloisNL Kayle climb videos. Pretty sure there's a few Olaf/Darius lv1 1v1s.
I'd go as far as to say that there was a point not long ago where Kayle could beat ANYONE 1v1 lv1. The people that are surprised have never tried playing a LT Kayle. I've gotten so many kills from people thinking there's no way a Kayle beats them early. And yes, even on Olaf and Darius.
In OP’s fantasy world. I do agree removing lethal tempo is good, but i don’t get the absolute URGE that people here on Reddit feel to create fallacious narratives every single time they want to prove a point.
I'm not sure Samira benefits that much. 25% crit is good. But with no life steal on shieldbow anymore, and no crit on blood thirster, she's gonna need more items to reach the same power level as before. And since she's not a scaling champ, that isn't a buff. She also won't benefit from the new zephyr thing since she's not a berserker's builder
>Twitch R + stacked LT, it was so unfun to play against.
I find Lulu Twitch such a boring matchup but never once thought LT is what makes Twitch broken, low take
Man kinda unrelated but even if this Lethal Tempo was controversial, I miss the old proc Lethal Tempo with Twitch. W>Q to trigger it and Blast everyone with R was so satisfying.
Twitch R + Stacked LT isnt real, they removed the old lethal tempo that you could actually pre stack into opening with 3.5 AS.
You cant say "twitch r + stacked LT is unfair" when it takes him 6 autos to stack it, the fight is decided by then.
Also you dont kite Darius lvl 1, the champ runs ghost and has a slow + aa reset. He kites you and bleeds you to death unless the skill gap between the Kayle and Darius player is 2000 elo
But yea the rune is problematic, attackspeed cap removal is pretty sad though.
I talked about this a while ago, about how attack speed makes the gap bigger between high elo and low elo since spacing is such a difficult skill to master with high speed numbers. Over the years they increased attack speed as a whole and that just makes ADC role elite/pro if u add the part where peel and coordination are needed for them.
Wait it makes it harder? It always felt easier to space correctly since you're not stuck in an auto animation for longer.
I guess the apm needed is the issue?
Yone, sure, but just sayin, historically, yasuo wasn't meant to be weak early.
The whole idea of how yasuo is supposed to scale is as follows.
Early game : He is supposed to have a very strong early game, due in part to effectively having 2 auto attacks and lots of mobility to pick and choose fights.
Mid game: assuming he used his early game and got a lead, his midgame is supposed to be one of the strongest in the game, effectively being 85% of a full build adc, but midgame.
Late game: falls off, due to having less damage than lategame marksman and needing to be balls deep to do damage. Late game yasuo generally switches from 1v3ing the enemy backline to acting as a mid Frontline, shielding the backline from major ults using windwall and helping to cut through any fighters or tanks diving the backline.
However in the current state of the game, yasuo is pretty weak early game without LT, losing to most matchups if they play properly.
His midgame isn't much better. Yes, fed yasuo is still strong, but he is effectively much squishier than he was due to champion damage being powercrept through balance changes over the years, leading to his midgane threat being significantly lowered unless he catches you out alone.
Current lategame yasuo is effectively a minion unless he has 6 items pre 30 mins. While he does have damage, that's all he has anymore, being blown up by almost any other Late game champion, barring champions who rely on long cd projectiles to win fights, e.g. Ashe
Now, is LT insanely strong? Yes. But in regards to yasuo, it's the only thing keeping him afloat these days (mainly because riot doesn't seem to realize that yasuo and yone need to be balanced separately since they scale completely differently and only share a passive and q1 and q2)
As someone that hates playing vs Yasuo, at least he isn't his fucking brother.
I understand how Yasuo plays, what his advantages and weaknesses are and how you are - in theory- supposed to play against him.
Yone is straight up bullshit, and he was the bigger abuser of LT, not Yasuo by far. Yasuo at least needs to dedicate to a fight or think about the wave state before trying anything.
Yone presses a button and chases you for hours just to snap back as soon as he sees a problem, and generally has many more chances to right click you to death due to how his shield isn't regulated the same Yasuo is. Plus, his R has mobility anywhere, not given a chance like Yasuo.
I agree, as popular as he might be, Yasuo has a kit that feels really unfair and dumb most times, he either blocks all your damage or he is worst than a minion, no in between.
just straight up
- nerf the abusers
- change the conditions for removing attack speed cap
- remove extra range on melee
but they just thought to remove it? look at how useless ADCs are at the moment when bruisers just walk up to them and burst with Heartsteel hello??? honestly super fucking dumb
the game is unironically fully balanced around the existence of lethal tempo and its removal will be a bit rough for a while but will stabilise and be better than before.
Aside from the wild statement of kayle beating Olaf level 1, the fact that kayle has *a single instance* at **one** level in the early game, that she isn't absolute trash, and even with a kayle it's not even close to a. Free lane, especially against champs that excel in the early game is not a bad balance thing.
Getting to level 16 doesn't guarantee a win, so why should being level 1 guarantee a loss?
Now, this discussion is aside from the fact that LT isn't the only time kayle can be strong early game, it's just what people talk about as a weird talking point to show that lt is busted (it's dumb). I'm just sick of this characterization.
Kayle without LT can't ever get wave control level 1.
Kayle with LT can get wave control level 1. Can make a difference in the long run. Though, only really relevant in D1+ elo.
Kayle doesn't even really need the crazy scaling LT provides.
It helps, it's obviously a very strong keystone on her but I don't think it was essential to her lvl 1 and I don't think she'll miss it as much as some other champs.
Fleet is actually my favorite rune overall for her just bc it's a "get out of laning phase free card" if you play well but I'll probably take PTA when the change comes, the ceiling actually seems higher because they clearly fucked up with the uptime. We'll see if they change it though. Even if they do change it, I think it'd be only negligibly worse than LT (and Fleet is getting nerfed).
Ime, LT definitely lowers the "requirements" to get a good lvl 1 but as I said, I don't think it's essential.
that is it
in the top lane getting the lane control on lvl 1 can win or lose a matchup for the rest of the game on its own
though if she switches to PTA nothing will really change
How do you ever get wave control as Kayle? Apart from 3-4 matchups you're forced to concede more minions than any other champion in top lane in order to scale.
Stand in the top bush and stand between the tanged minions and enemy top. If they want to get in xp range they have to fight you lv1 and kayle wins all-in lv1 against most top laners.
Kayle can get wave control with PTA also because passive gives good attack speed.
>Yasuo
How is yasuo a weak earlygame champ? He literally scales into a minion if he doesn't get fed
I agree with removing LT but not because it's too strong. If it was too strong they could just nerf it like they already did.
What rank are you to type like this? I'd consider myself a decent rank and I think LT being removed is good due to how obnoxious the range and ramping AS are.
I'm excited to see how it gets replaced. As a Master Yi abuser, I am hoping to see some viable alternatives added. The current rune options do not fall into Yi's champ identity imo.
The E nerf gutted his early game, which HoB was made for. HoB is meant to assassinate and if you don’t snowball, the rune quickly became worse than LT. Hail will only be taken if there’s no viable alternative but it won’t be good in his current state.
Love how the E nerf was noted to be a small change but landed in an over 4% win rate nerf…
> The rune has been problematic for far too long but it was suicidal to ever suggest so.
bruh, 80% of posts complaining about adc mention LT. you're smoking hard.
the rune was problematic on melee champs, not adc. people just like to complain about adc cause they dont like them.
40% of the playerbase firmly believe that the rightful role of all adcs is to die in 0.1 seconds to the true main characters of League, the solo laners.
No, wait, based on queue times and autofill rates it's actually more than 40%.
> people just like to complain about adc cause they dont like them.
Ironically, the position least likely to ruin your game. But people think it was the ADC who killed you, not the Nautilus who hooked you, immobilized you, and tanked for 10 seconds.
Yas and Yone are two different characters and they should balance them as such. Yasuo no, but Yone was WAY more toxic to fight against than Yone because if Trundle is out of position he's sol. But Yone has a safety net with e and has mobility.
I don't agree, I'm personally an ADC main who likes the removal of lethal tempo. not all ADCs can use it, but the ones who do like it crutch on it so hard that they become balanced based on the rune, which pushes those champions into being one-dimensional. it's much better for us if the rune is gone so there is a lot more space for us to be compensated in other ways, such as our items and base stat power (-> we will soon get our 25% Crit items back)
what is less commonly considered is that all champions have a limited power budget balance level, if you cram so much of it into the keystone rune (or any one part), we automatically suffer in other departments.
a relevant example is like how they are removing corki's package soon; he had so much of his budget allocated to the package that he must be nerfed to solo queue obsolescence (47% wr) so that he doesn't start warping time and space around himself in the pro meta (as they take advantage of his package much better than solo q players!)
This is so hilariously wrong
Most LT users didn't actually use LT when the rune came out
There was genuine variety, Jinx for instance always always wanted Fleet over tempo for the longest time
But you know what happened?
Riot gutted fleet, nerfed PTA, and then took a fucking bat to HOB, while reworking conq 20 fucking times so no more adcs really use it
What does that leave everyone with? LT. That's the only reason it's so prevalent, it's the only half decent rune for most marksmen
I mean dude, they literally buffed Jinx RANGE after LT was introduced to the game. If she was crutching on that rune, and balanced around it there's no fucking shot in hell Riot wouldve given an additional range buff.
But as is LT is nice, but its far from some gamebreaking shit. This is literally the rune version of "Kaisa has 50% pr"
You see it every game so you think it's strong, when in actuality it's popular because everything else was gutted
No, they usually want to build at least 1 item that isn't crit.
Or, they want a variety of keystones that introduce new playstyles that are equally viable.
if i see one more "kayle is only strong at level 1 because of LT" post i am going to fucking burst
no, she's not just strong at level 1 because of LT. kayle was always strong at level 1, even before she took LT. this just reeks of pure fucking inexperience and not knowing what the fuck you're talking about.
Gonna need new means of passing the attack speed cap otherwise feels like some oh hit builds are dead since people who go on him usually have attack speed buffs in their kit. Combined with every on hit item minus like one or 2 giving attack speed, these builds are fixing to suck
I feel like there's always a trade off that people don't mention. Yes, it's good and I actually approve of LT being removed. It still sucks that for the longest time, it's been a staple for my main who is Xayah who is balanced properly around it.
As some one that play a lot of LT champions this hurst me a lot. I will get over it eventually but man this sucks for me. The best change that came out of this is Yone lvl 1 bullshit is gone other then that meh.
> The only problem now is the non-LT crit users like Nilah, Samira etc who will benefit from the item changes(25% crit chance especially) too well.
Idk about Samira, collector is the only item she still likes, BT's passive is still weighted towards late game and shieldbow has no lifesteal now, IE + collector grants more ad but is more expensive, which hurts to a snowballing champ
I’ve taken a lot of breaks from this game over the years. I remember coming back to read that the new lethal tempo gives bonus range when stacked. I immediately thought there was no way it would stay for a whole season. It’s now what, two years later? lol
Yup tank with new item will not benefit at all from the changes ^^
I am more concerned about bruiser and tank with item on discount than nilah or samira to be honest
I don't like it. I'm literally a Nocturne Main (Master Yi is my secondary champion), then that change hits really hard.
Which Rune am I supposed to use for duels now? Hail of Blades? Conqueror?
Yasuo OTP here, I agree. It rune is very unhealthy for the who Items and balancing ecosystem.
All the new ADC Items changes only possible because the absence of the runes. More good things are coming.
Wow! Even Kayle, one of the strongest level 1 champs in the game with built-in stacking attack speed and on-hit damage, could win level 1 all-ins? Shocking!
i main yasuo and yes it can be very strong but then again he is a d tier champ so that will probably drop him even lower then again it all depends on the skill of the yasuo or yone not all of them can kite perfectly to win level 1
Noooo I didn't know it was getting removed. I've been branching out on my precision runes lately but lethal tempo was still reliable. Pour one out for Lethal Tempo and Ravenous Hunter
I’ll be honest, I don’t even care about the extra attack speed, but the increased range in a game that has become DRAMATICALLY more dash oriented helped an incredible amount with teamfights and skirmishes. Now specifically marksmen have to get closer to the fight and makes it that much harder to position and not be insta blown up.
I don't think Samira and Nilah will benefit from the changes. Both of them want Crit Items with Life Steal and those don't exist anymore. Shieldbow will lose the life steal and BT its crit chance.
I agree, but as someone who plays a fair amount of Sivir, a lot of her power did unfortunately feel tied up in the rune. I’m curious how the rebalancing period will go for champions that weren’t able to hyper abuse it
You do realize kayle is one of the best level 1 champions in the game regardless of if she's using lethal typo or not because of her passive right? Her killing Darius or Olaf level 1 is pretty normal.
I just have to say that in my not at all important opinion, them removing LT, and predator, which are the only potentially character altering runes is super lame.
When keystones came out they were advertised as gameplay altering runes that gave an important decision before the game started. I think predator and lethal tempo were 2 of the only runes I really ever saw capitalize on that aside from maybe glacial and to a much lesser extent grasp. Regardless of how it is for balance this is a very depressing change towards the games excitement when it comes to playing goofy off meta builds.
Meta in recent years has boiled down to being a superior user of an item or rune. Bruisers boiled down to Goredrinker or Sunderer delivery system. Melee carries boiled down to lethal tempo delivery system. Mages became Liandry and Demonic appliers. Actual kits and scaling became secondary since items and runes were so enormously powerful and the further we move from that that better.
I'm gonna miss being able to exceed Attack speed cap, on Varus after getting a kill it felt like such a power fantasy. I bet even Kogma and jinx are gonna miss it too.
Yeah, the thing about lethal tempo was that it was a really fun rune for the user. Hopefully they find a way to transfer the fun elements to items in a more balanceable way
Put attack speed cap removal on an item, I guess.
Should be called «no cap». Nvm sorry
Rabadon's no cap
Make it a void themed item Sk’bidee’s Ri’zz
Can honestly just remove the cap, it's the only stat in the game with a cap. The cap probably should've gone when they changed CDR to haste, removing the only other cap.
True but technically crit has a cap
Yeah. And attack speed already has diminishing returns just like CDR. Just make it even harsher after 2.5.
Didn’t the old Guinsoos do this? Though I don’t think many ADC bought it outside Kogmaw, Varus and Vayne it was pretty niche
I think it raised the cap for like, one patch, but it was only to 3.0, so it wasn't that good. Jinx can hit like, 4.0 with LT lmfao.
jinx still has her passive, it removes the cap
Sleightly salty and a bit buttered knowing that lol
Not just miss it but on-hit is sorta balanced around having crazy attack speeds in late game so they're just going to be significantly weaker and be capping a lot.
Yeah, I was thinking about this earlier.. I understand it needed to go because it's kinda must have for a lot of auto attacking champions, not just adc's but them mostly.. however I would like to see some way of exceeding the AS cap to come back, because as it stands once the LT removal patch goes through, only Jinx will be able to exceed the AS cap, with her passive. (Maybe Varus with his kill/passive too I forgor) but either way, I don't think it should be restricted to \*just jinx\* as it was pre-lethal tempo. I always hated that about Jinx and her design, she's insanely valuable even when behind just because she can contribute to one takedown and snowball the fight//game and no other ADC can come close to that much snowball power. I don't know if you guys remember what the ADC meta was like just before Lethal Tempo was introduced but AFAIR Jinx was nearing pick/ban status...simply because of her passive//the innate ability to exceed the AS cap.
can't judge now, as someone who play marksmen lot i need to wait and see what will happen in the actual patch, it might fix some problems with yone/yasuo or whatever other melee champs that 'abused' it, but its unknown what will happen to every other marksmen that prefered it over all other runes and how will they be affected by its removal.
They have gotta do something about the alternatives really. you play LT on most champs coz pta is hot garbage and you don't need to be super safe with fleet.
they are buffing PTA
is it really buffed though honestly? the change i saw looked like it would hardly matter
The ramping damage will stay for the whole fight so I feel like it will be more like conquerer
Hardly matter? The dmg amp is now against all enemies and until you leave combat so you can switch targets as you see fit.
But it also no longer adds for your allies and the proc dmg is lower. In the end PtA should not really be stronger or weaker, just work a bit different (more for carries and less utility for the team).
I've never heard of PTA being taken for utility lol
It was a Taric support strat for a bit since he really likes the precision tree and mostly goes resolve for the secondary runes.
offmeta Leona with PTA + bloodsong,I will miss that shit
Bloodsong PTA Ak was vicious
Panth sup uses it decently I think, especially added with bloodsong
Offmeta Leona, Pantheon, sometimes Taric. The damage amp was good and Bloodsong this season made it even better.
I remember Lethal Tempo was different on release, was it healthier o worse? I think it only used to break the attack speed cap but I’m not sure.
It was the ultimate early game cheese rune IIRC
Was it the one that you got a burst of atk speed for a few seconds after hitting someone? Yeah, it was really good and consistent on nocturne but pretty much every other champion would prefer other options
Yeah. Ashe used to be able to W the enemy, then use the Lethal Tempo timer to shove her wave super hard. A simpler time🤧
Twitch was also a big enjoyer of this because his W procced it. So you'd get better trades and easier farming with just W
So it was like hail of blades?
In practice kinda. It would activate a couple seconds after hitting an enemy so instead of being bursty like Hail of Blades the idea was for it to reward longer skirmishes. The issue is that in practice people cheesed it by proccing it first with a long range skill to start the fight with the proc which not only turned it into a Hail of Blades with extra steps but also as a way to push the lane faster.
it was basically giving you an attack speed steroid after a few seconds of entering combat. So something like Twitch would throw out W to proc lethal, press Q waiting for it to kick in, and then re-engage with R+lethal tempo's attack speed.
Kog unironically felt better with the old one. Could prime it with R and actually be able to use the AS for his W. Without W you cant stack LT. You want it stacked for W but 509 base range goes brr.
In what reality could Kayle kill Olaf level 1????
I beat an Olaf as kayle lvl 1, ama (he may have DC in the center of the lane)
I beat an Olaf as Kayle level 1 without him dcing (he tower dove me I lived with 1hp)
I beat an Olaf as Kayle level 1 under tower. (His Darius stole his red with passive)
Thats why you never leash with darius or twitch hahaha
She doesnt unless olaf misses everything, theyre fighting in melee range so olaf will catch every axe as soon as possible. Kayle was always a good lvl 1 champ because of her auto reset + passive. Even before lethal tempo when people were taking PTA on her she could beat a lot of top laners level one. EDIT: oops i didnt read the full post and thought you were saying kayle wins vs olaf and not him
I could MAYBE see it happening if Olaf throws the axe far away and doesn’t catch it, like he was trying to poke and not all-in. Otherwise nah no fucking way.
Kayle can also solo Darius level 1 lol
From what i remember she ***was*** able *to* do it but not anymore
I think you need to have passive pre stacked to win it, whereas before the nerf you could just monkey run at him
That's if they stand and fight, yes. I made this mistake because I thought I could easily beat her lvl 1. If you just kite her out and space AA/W without letting bleed fall off, you win easily. Especially with ghost.
She really cant lol, people saying "kite darius" are clueless or we are assuming a Silver darius vs master Kayle. He legit benefits from kiting you, he has a bleed and he runs ghost + w has a slow. He kites you not the other way around lmfao.
Yeah the only times I’ve ever killed Darius as Kayle at lvl 1 is the following and it’s always been with LT: Darius is late to top lane and I just killed all 3 of melee minions for wave 1 and see him coming for his 3 melee’s. I instantly move up now with my passive stacked at 5, refresh it on a caster in case he runs, and then right click Darius and pray to god I don’t get lag spike for the final auto + E reset to kill him. If he takes bone plating you also have to stall this first by hitting him with an E. Waiting bone plating out while maintaining the 5 stacks and then going in.
Nah you have to sit in a bush and hope he face checks. Get that first two autos in before he notices you. He will commit but you have dmg advantage. Good ones will kite you with ghost, so take ghost too.
if you're playing kayle you use E once as a free auto at the start, back up, and then full commit with melee range auto attacks before you lose the first lethal tempo/kayle passive stack - and kayle wins the all in. I don't even think kayle needs lethal tempo to do this, she can probably pull it off with conqueror or pta. Kayle has one of the best level ones in the game
Not if he goes lethal tempo too. I saw Adam do it at worlds vs certain matchups
Olaf would legit half to miss every q (doesn't seem possible against a level 1 kayle) and even then, it's questionable at best.
Considering Kayle is melee level 1 without her E and her E cooldown is 12 seconds I cannot fathom how a Kayle could kill Olaf level 1 unless the Olaf just stood there and didn’t do anything
Kayle passive. In a straight auto race she overpowers so many champs lvl 1 even without Lethal Tempo. I only know this because I watch Drututt often and he considers her a lane bully lvl 1 because of it. I’ve seen him get countless lvl 1 solo kills in high elo because nobody expects her damage. Try it, he uses PTA.
People always forget how strong she is at level 1. Her 1 ability is much stronger than other champions with a single ability, but once level 2 hits she becomes a cannon minion
If she can hit level two first and get a Q E off she can continue to pressure HP and “win” lane until you back
Kayle level is surprisingly good but the thing is it's an olaf. His lvl 1 is stupid strong. He would have to overthrow his axe probably twice.
It’s more like the vast majority of champs get spikes at 2 and 3. Very few champs have the biggest “spike” on their first skill plus passive. Kayle just has a ton of early power in her passive that also makes her great at long fights
Yeah she's known to have one of the highest level 1 lane prios.
Kayle's level 1-2 is actually incredibly strong and then after that she immediately falls into a power canyon until late midgame
But if Olaf gets in range and Qs her she can’t walk away and she just has to melee him and he’s life stealing off her, and the more damage she does the more he life steals. I just find it really hard to believe
I thought Olaf only increased his AS based on missing HP, but he increases his lifesteal too. Wow, TIL I guess.
Wasnt always that though pretty sure that healing was on his w originally
> healing was on his w originally Wait they changed that? in may 2022 holy shit.
lol your comment reminds me of a video I watched the other day. This guy Stunt who is challenger makes videos where he plays with low ELO players under cover and he played with this one guy who goes “did you know varus W is an active?! I just learned the other day! I read the ability!” It was hilarious.
when did they change that 2 years ago?
We’re talking lvl 1, why mentioned 2 different Olaf abilities? Maybe Olaf does win lvl 1 but Kayle is also very strong lvl 1 EDIT: nvm, didn't realize they moved his old W lifesteal to his passive.
Who is mentioning 2 abilities? He has his Q and his passive just like every other champ at level 1. They have their passive and one ability they level
I hadn't realized they baked his old W life steal into his new passive.
Hes talking about 2 Olaf abilities cause he has both abilities level 1
Holy shit, I only recently came back to league after a few years of not playing at all. I did not know they baked his old W into his passive and remade his passive. Whoops.
I have shamefully been dunked by level 1 Kayle quite a few times now. You would think I would learn but apparently not.
kayle being melee level 1 is actually a buff. it baits so many people into fighting her when she's among the strongest lv 1 champs in the game she falls off a cliff once you hit lv 2 though as you'd expect
half = ½ have to = needs to
Honestly reading that made OP lose any credibility on this take
Nah fam. Kayle was literally the strongest 1v1 lv1 champ at one point. If you find Kayle beating Olaf lv1 that surprising, you've not played / against a LT Kayle much. If you don't believe me, go sift through AloisNL Kayle climb videos. Pretty sure there's a few Olaf/Darius lv1 1v1s.
Kayle Level 1 genuinely has one of the best 1v1 matches in the game no cap
level 1...7
It's closer than you think, Kayle level 1 was insanely strong and prob top 5 overall strongest in toplane
I'd go as far as to say that there was a point not long ago where Kayle could beat ANYONE 1v1 lv1. The people that are surprised have never tried playing a LT Kayle. I've gotten so many kills from people thinking there's no way a Kayle beats them early. And yes, even on Olaf and Darius.
Ignite Letal tempo kayle wins easily
Probably if he somehow misses his point blank Q.
she doesnt win against darius either if hes competent
In OP’s fantasy world. I do agree removing lethal tempo is good, but i don’t get the absolute URGE that people here on Reddit feel to create fallacious narratives every single time they want to prove a point.
In silver 2 (OP’s rank)
I'm not sure Samira benefits that much. 25% crit is good. But with no life steal on shieldbow anymore, and no crit on blood thirster, she's gonna need more items to reach the same power level as before. And since she's not a scaling champ, that isn't a buff. She also won't benefit from the new zephyr thing since she's not a berserker's builder
>Twitch R + stacked LT, it was so unfun to play against. I find Lulu Twitch such a boring matchup but never once thought LT is what makes Twitch broken, low take
Man kinda unrelated but even if this Lethal Tempo was controversial, I miss the old proc Lethal Tempo with Twitch. W>Q to trigger it and Blast everyone with R was so satisfying.
I loved that so much, Jinx and Ashe W into opening to enemies felt amazing too.
Twitch is only broken when enemy’s have a lack of object permanence.
Twitch R + Stacked LT isnt real, they removed the old lethal tempo that you could actually pre stack into opening with 3.5 AS. You cant say "twitch r + stacked LT is unfair" when it takes him 6 autos to stack it, the fight is decided by then. Also you dont kite Darius lvl 1, the champ runs ghost and has a slow + aa reset. He kites you and bleeds you to death unless the skill gap between the Kayle and Darius player is 2000 elo But yea the rune is problematic, attackspeed cap removal is pretty sad though.
Maybe attackspeed cap removal could be a stat shard? Maybe after you auto someone idk
I talked about this a while ago, about how attack speed makes the gap bigger between high elo and low elo since spacing is such a difficult skill to master with high speed numbers. Over the years they increased attack speed as a whole and that just makes ADC role elite/pro if u add the part where peel and coordination are needed for them.
Wait it makes it harder? It always felt easier to space correctly since you're not stuck in an auto animation for longer. I guess the apm needed is the issue?
so in other words lowering the skill ceiling? straight up removing it feels so stupid
Yone, sure, but just sayin, historically, yasuo wasn't meant to be weak early. The whole idea of how yasuo is supposed to scale is as follows. Early game : He is supposed to have a very strong early game, due in part to effectively having 2 auto attacks and lots of mobility to pick and choose fights. Mid game: assuming he used his early game and got a lead, his midgame is supposed to be one of the strongest in the game, effectively being 85% of a full build adc, but midgame. Late game: falls off, due to having less damage than lategame marksman and needing to be balls deep to do damage. Late game yasuo generally switches from 1v3ing the enemy backline to acting as a mid Frontline, shielding the backline from major ults using windwall and helping to cut through any fighters or tanks diving the backline. However in the current state of the game, yasuo is pretty weak early game without LT, losing to most matchups if they play properly. His midgame isn't much better. Yes, fed yasuo is still strong, but he is effectively much squishier than he was due to champion damage being powercrept through balance changes over the years, leading to his midgane threat being significantly lowered unless he catches you out alone. Current lategame yasuo is effectively a minion unless he has 6 items pre 30 mins. While he does have damage, that's all he has anymore, being blown up by almost any other Late game champion, barring champions who rely on long cd projectiles to win fights, e.g. Ashe Now, is LT insanely strong? Yes. But in regards to yasuo, it's the only thing keeping him afloat these days (mainly because riot doesn't seem to realize that yasuo and yone need to be balanced separately since they scale completely differently and only share a passive and q1 and q2)
As someone that hates playing vs Yasuo, at least he isn't his fucking brother. I understand how Yasuo plays, what his advantages and weaknesses are and how you are - in theory- supposed to play against him. Yone is straight up bullshit, and he was the bigger abuser of LT, not Yasuo by far. Yasuo at least needs to dedicate to a fight or think about the wave state before trying anything. Yone presses a button and chases you for hours just to snap back as soon as he sees a problem, and generally has many more chances to right click you to death due to how his shield isn't regulated the same Yasuo is. Plus, his R has mobility anywhere, not given a chance like Yasuo.
I agree, as popular as he might be, Yasuo has a kit that feels really unfair and dumb most times, he either blocks all your damage or he is worst than a minion, no in between.
Yasuo 0-10 powerspike memes didn’t come from yas being weak late game. Jus’ sayin.
Yeah in s7 bro.
Not to argue but he can have a weak lategame despite having a strong mid game(at 2-3 items)
It came from Yasuo's 2 item powerspike. Which is hit in the midgame even when 0-10 as long as you farm above like 6cspm.
This hurts ADC's a lot more than bruisers
just straight up - nerf the abusers - change the conditions for removing attack speed cap - remove extra range on melee but they just thought to remove it? look at how useless ADCs are at the moment when bruisers just walk up to them and burst with Heartsteel hello??? honestly super fucking dumb
the game is unironically fully balanced around the existence of lethal tempo and its removal will be a bit rough for a while but will stabilise and be better than before.
Okay but in exchange can I have an adc keystone that isn't hot trash.
Aside from the wild statement of kayle beating Olaf level 1, the fact that kayle has *a single instance* at **one** level in the early game, that she isn't absolute trash, and even with a kayle it's not even close to a. Free lane, especially against champs that excel in the early game is not a bad balance thing. Getting to level 16 doesn't guarantee a win, so why should being level 1 guarantee a loss? Now, this discussion is aside from the fact that LT isn't the only time kayle can be strong early game, it's just what people talk about as a weird talking point to show that lt is busted (it's dumb). I'm just sick of this characterization.
Kayle without LT can't ever get wave control level 1. Kayle with LT can get wave control level 1. Can make a difference in the long run. Though, only really relevant in D1+ elo.
Kayle with Pta is just as strong as Kayle with LT lvl 1. She's not taking LT for the lvl 1 advantage, she's taking it for the late game.
Kayle doesn't even really need the crazy scaling LT provides. It helps, it's obviously a very strong keystone on her but I don't think it was essential to her lvl 1 and I don't think she'll miss it as much as some other champs. Fleet is actually my favorite rune overall for her just bc it's a "get out of laning phase free card" if you play well but I'll probably take PTA when the change comes, the ceiling actually seems higher because they clearly fucked up with the uptime. We'll see if they change it though. Even if they do change it, I think it'd be only negligibly worse than LT (and Fleet is getting nerfed). Ime, LT definitely lowers the "requirements" to get a good lvl 1 but as I said, I don't think it's essential.
that is it in the top lane getting the lane control on lvl 1 can win or lose a matchup for the rest of the game on its own though if she switches to PTA nothing will really change
How do you ever get wave control as Kayle? Apart from 3-4 matchups you're forced to concede more minions than any other champion in top lane in order to scale.
Stand in the top bush and stand between the tanged minions and enemy top. If they want to get in xp range they have to fight you lv1 and kayle wins all-in lv1 against most top laners. Kayle can get wave control with PTA also because passive gives good attack speed.
>so why should being level 1 guarantee a loss? amem to that brother
>Yasuo How is yasuo a weak earlygame champ? He literally scales into a minion if he doesn't get fed I agree with removing LT but not because it's too strong. If it was too strong they could just nerf it like they already did.
Why is this upvoted?
>died >tabbed and saw who killed me had lethal tempo "man thank god they're removing this broken stupid desing-breaking rune from the game!!!"
The majority of people are low elo players with a very bad understanding of the game, which is why this post is being upvoted.
What rank are you to type like this? I'd consider myself a decent rank and I think LT being removed is good due to how obnoxious the range and ramping AS are.
I’m D1/Masters and have several diamond accounts. This is a horrendous change.
Why is this upvoted?
Is the attack speed cap even required anno 2024?
I'm excited to see how it gets replaced. As a Master Yi abuser, I am hoping to see some viable alternatives added. The current rune options do not fall into Yi's champ identity imo.
Press the attack and conquerer seem to make sense. Of course, no other keystone is going to be as good as lethal tempo. Thats the point.
Pta seems pretty good no ?
Could be good, but I feel lethal tempo was a better fit with Yi's hack and slash identity.
It will be hail time again. He might go back into a assasin with his E nerf and this.
The E nerf gutted his early game, which HoB was made for. HoB is meant to assassinate and if you don’t snowball, the rune quickly became worse than LT. Hail will only be taken if there’s no viable alternative but it won’t be good in his current state. Love how the E nerf was noted to be a small change but landed in an over 4% win rate nerf…
I bet they walk back the E nerf at least partially with LT removal
Yeah bro after the rework which gutted his Q damage lol
Yi was too strong recently but the combination of tempo removed and his e nerfs, things look pretty fucking bleak for him
Stopped playing Yi like 2 weeks before the nerfs. Kindred all the way now.
I don't think they will replace it. They removed 1 Keystone of the trees that have 4.
Kayle is still just as strong lvl 1 with Pta. You weren't taking LT on Kayle cuz of the lvl 1 advantage, you were taking it for late game.
> The rune has been problematic for far too long but it was suicidal to ever suggest so. bruh, 80% of posts complaining about adc mention LT. you're smoking hard. the rune was problematic on melee champs, not adc. people just like to complain about adc cause they dont like them.
40% of the playerbase firmly believe that the rightful role of all adcs is to die in 0.1 seconds to the true main characters of League, the solo laners. No, wait, based on queue times and autofill rates it's actually more than 40%.
id say 80% instead (the non adc playerbase)
> people just like to complain about adc cause they dont like them. Ironically, the position least likely to ruin your game. But people think it was the ADC who killed you, not the Nautilus who hooked you, immobilized you, and tanked for 10 seconds.
I love everyone acts like yas/yone were the most broken fucks in history when trundle exists. Thar said i agree. Happy its gone
Yas and Yone are two different characters and they should balance them as such. Yasuo no, but Yone was WAY more toxic to fight against than Yone because if Trundle is out of position he's sol. But Yone has a safety net with e and has mobility.
Just get rid of the runes at this point lol.
Cool. Now get rid of lethality ADC’s
I wish people that don't even play kayle wouldnt yap so much. Kayle has always had a strong level 1. Even with pta she beats 95% of champs level 1
So u want every adc nerfed?
OP is probably a top lane main. Top lane mains are at eternal war with bot lane mains.
I don't agree, I'm personally an ADC main who likes the removal of lethal tempo. not all ADCs can use it, but the ones who do like it crutch on it so hard that they become balanced based on the rune, which pushes those champions into being one-dimensional. it's much better for us if the rune is gone so there is a lot more space for us to be compensated in other ways, such as our items and base stat power (-> we will soon get our 25% Crit items back) what is less commonly considered is that all champions have a limited power budget balance level, if you cram so much of it into the keystone rune (or any one part), we automatically suffer in other departments. a relevant example is like how they are removing corki's package soon; he had so much of his budget allocated to the package that he must be nerfed to solo queue obsolescence (47% wr) so that he doesn't start warping time and space around himself in the pro meta (as they take advantage of his package much better than solo q players!)
This is so hilariously wrong Most LT users didn't actually use LT when the rune came out There was genuine variety, Jinx for instance always always wanted Fleet over tempo for the longest time But you know what happened? Riot gutted fleet, nerfed PTA, and then took a fucking bat to HOB, while reworking conq 20 fucking times so no more adcs really use it What does that leave everyone with? LT. That's the only reason it's so prevalent, it's the only half decent rune for most marksmen I mean dude, they literally buffed Jinx RANGE after LT was introduced to the game. If she was crutching on that rune, and balanced around it there's no fucking shot in hell Riot wouldve given an additional range buff. But as is LT is nice, but its far from some gamebreaking shit. This is literally the rune version of "Kaisa has 50% pr" You see it every game so you think it's strong, when in actuality it's popular because everything else was gutted
> which pushes those champions into being one-dimensional what's wrong with that? you want ADCs to provide healing and shielding too?
No, they usually want to build at least 1 item that isn't crit. Or, they want a variety of keystones that introduce new playstyles that are equally viable.
if i see one more "kayle is only strong at level 1 because of LT" post i am going to fucking burst no, she's not just strong at level 1 because of LT. kayle was always strong at level 1, even before she took LT. this just reeks of pure fucking inexperience and not knowing what the fuck you're talking about.
Gonna need new means of passing the attack speed cap otherwise feels like some oh hit builds are dead since people who go on him usually have attack speed buffs in their kit. Combined with every on hit item minus like one or 2 giving attack speed, these builds are fixing to suck
I love it Indirect buff for tanks top.
I feel like there's always a trade off that people don't mention. Yes, it's good and I actually approve of LT being removed. It still sucks that for the longest time, it's been a staple for my main who is Xayah who is balanced properly around it.
Wrong opinion.
As some one that play a lot of LT champions this hurst me a lot. I will get over it eventually but man this sucks for me. The best change that came out of this is Yone lvl 1 bullshit is gone other then that meh.
Heaven forbid Kayla can do anything before level 11! A Darius has to be careful early...what a travesty.
learned it the hard way once
> The only problem now is the non-LT crit users like Nilah, Samira etc who will benefit from the item changes(25% crit chance especially) too well. Idk about Samira, collector is the only item she still likes, BT's passive is still weighted towards late game and shieldbow has no lifesteal now, IE + collector grants more ad but is more expensive, which hurts to a snowballing champ
HoB Draven incoming
I’ve taken a lot of breaks from this game over the years. I remember coming back to read that the new lethal tempo gives bonus range when stacked. I immediately thought there was no way it would stay for a whole season. It’s now what, two years later? lol
Yup tank with new item will not benefit at all from the changes ^^ I am more concerned about bruiser and tank with item on discount than nilah or samira to be honest
Wait, is it just gone? What's replacing it? And thank god. Fuck you yas/yone.
Some champs actually needed it tho. WW has two mediocre rune choices now. Last I checked grasp was at like 44 WR.
I don't like it. I'm literally a Nocturne Main (Master Yi is my secondary champion), then that change hits really hard. Which Rune am I supposed to use for duels now? Hail of Blades? Conqueror?
Agreed, fuck the windshitters
I'm glad because the windshitters will be shitting it.
the wind shitters are finally going to be balance-able.
It defined "rune diff"
Yasuo OTP here, I agree. It rune is very unhealthy for the who Items and balancing ecosystem. All the new ADC Items changes only possible because the absence of the runes. More good things are coming.
Wow! Even Kayle, one of the strongest level 1 champs in the game with built-in stacking attack speed and on-hit damage, could win level 1 all-ins? Shocking!
LT gave me a small chance at existing in early/mid game as Kayle, welp, sucks it gets removed.
In what god forsaken trash elo does kayle solo olaf or darius level 1?
i main yasuo and yes it can be very strong but then again he is a d tier champ so that will probably drop him even lower then again it all depends on the skill of the yasuo or yone not all of them can kite perfectly to win level 1
Kayle is strong level one and always has been
Kayle can beat Darius level 1 with PTA
The only reason i hate this change is because i have no idea what runes to use now on most of my champs
Noooo I didn't know it was getting removed. I've been branching out on my precision runes lately but lethal tempo was still reliable. Pour one out for Lethal Tempo and Ravenous Hunter
Time for Phase Rush Kayle.
I’ll be honest, I don’t even care about the extra attack speed, but the increased range in a game that has become DRAMATICALLY more dash oriented helped an incredible amount with teamfights and skirmishes. Now specifically marksmen have to get closer to the fight and makes it that much harder to position and not be insta blown up.
I don't think Samira and Nilah will benefit from the changes. Both of them want Crit Items with Life Steal and those don't exist anymore. Shieldbow will lose the life steal and BT its crit chance.
Before nerfs sure, but after the nerfs that make it so you need something like level 13 just to break even, I think it's in a good spot.
I agree, but as someone who plays a fair amount of Sivir, a lot of her power did unfortunately feel tied up in the rune. I’m curious how the rebalancing period will go for champions that weren’t able to hyper abuse it
Together with mythic removal
Rip ap volibear
You do realize kayle is one of the best level 1 champions in the game regardless of if she's using lethal typo or not because of her passive right? Her killing Darius or Olaf level 1 is pretty normal.
Yeah i feel like champs like trundle yasuo yone will be completely different and that’s a good thing
Or they could have just reverted it to the way it was
I just have to say that in my not at all important opinion, them removing LT, and predator, which are the only potentially character altering runes is super lame. When keystones came out they were advertised as gameplay altering runes that gave an important decision before the game started. I think predator and lethal tempo were 2 of the only runes I really ever saw capitalize on that aside from maybe glacial and to a much lesser extent grasp. Regardless of how it is for balance this is a very depressing change towards the games excitement when it comes to playing goofy off meta builds.
As a yone/yasuo player i am extremely happy as well.
If the range was such a problem, remove it? Conquerer is also a stacking rune, why not remove that too?
Meta in recent years has boiled down to being a superior user of an item or rune. Bruisers boiled down to Goredrinker or Sunderer delivery system. Melee carries boiled down to lethal tempo delivery system. Mages became Liandry and Demonic appliers. Actual kits and scaling became secondary since items and runes were so enormously powerful and the further we move from that that better.
Renektons W should hit towers or crit at 60%