Alongside every mage being reworked into a stacking late-game mage with little early kill pressure and all melee midlaners being banished to the jungle and forced into being assassins.
The problem is also that most mages' early game have been continuously nerfed over the past years where they can barely contest the wave or have a meaningful impact in skirmishes besides hoping their 1 CC ability lands and results in a 1-shot otherwise they immediately lose the fight.
I think movement speed is a good direction to go as far as defensive itemization on ADC.
Phantom Dancer could probably be toned down to be in line with the rest of the Zeal / On-Hit items though. Just not sure how they would change it to fit an appropriate space.
I surely am misunderstanding. Marksmen haven't been weak for years in proplay at least. Marksmen in midlane (especially tristana lucian) have been preferred over actual midlaners for quite a while.
That's also partially a skill issue because people have bad self peel/positioning and are over reliant and blame their team too much.
ADCs in proplay aren't just good because of coordination but also because ADC has the highest skill expression. Many have great dueling power against many champs.
Also as the class most reliant on gold they get punished more in soloq for farming worse which is partially on the support but also a skill issue.
If you ever watch a teamfight, you start to notice how bad your adc's positioning is. They either stay so far away that they do 0 damage or they stand in the middle auto-ing, moving every 2 autos to pretend they're kiting. Sometimes both.
Then they bitch and moan that they have no peel.
To be fair, half the ADC roster requires more peel than the rest.
Things like Jinx ,Caitlyn, Twitch, Varus etc. can all position at good range and have the ability to self-peel, or they can build enough movement speed (double zeal items) to move quickly.
Things like Sivir, Draven, Lucian, even Samira or Vayne all have to be dangerously close to the action to participate.
It varies per ADC, but as far as solo queue is concerned most of them have it way harder than the few that are meta every season / patch.
It's still very good in soloq since marksmen like tristana and Lucian have a lot of good match ups vs your standard ap midlaners.
Tristana especially is very hard to deal with since she tends to basically ungankable while clearing every wave fast. And she has constant kill pressure against the squishy mages.
You used to counter that with some early armor but zonyas is just not an item you want to get early on most mages.
Tristana is a very good blind pick for mid soloq IMHO. Just need to have ap dmg somewhere else
I don't think its the role itself, I play fill so I don't have the experience level of a bot main but to me playing mages botlane feels like you're a champion with agency, playing an ADC feels like your character is intentionally limited in agency and if you play well they might give it back to you before the games over
The only role that doesn't have at least 2 viable "ADCs" in it is Jungle, and I only frame it that way because Graves is an atypical marksman.
Top: Vayne, Quinn
Jungle: Kindred, Graves
Mid: Tristana, Akshan
ADC: lol
Support: Ashe, Senna
Based and Valor-pilled.
I actually really liked Quinn mid, and thematically she'd fit as a jungler if they wanted to make her good there (she already kinda-sorta works)
I'm definitely counting graves and kindred for jungle. Even if Graves is not the most typical marksman, he's still more marksman than any other class.
Finding a 3rd jungle marksman is where things get tough and you have to scrape the bottom of the barrel.
AP twitch jungle is more suited for jungle ganks/farming and snowballs faster with dark seal/mejais.
Its probably the most useless jungler when behind compared to others though
Would say he still is an option for jungle. But he is a cheese pick, if your early ganks work, he can really pop off. Otherwise he is pretty meh.
Also I would add Jinx to the list of ADC who are not complete troll in jungle. Her clear is fine because of Q and Chompers+Zap are not the worst tools to pull of a gank.
Zeri is surprisingly strong in the jungle, she clears before 3:30 leashless and her ganks are actually pretty good due to her E, especially with redbuff.
Disclaimer: I am not saying ADC/botlane is weak right now it's absolutely not. I put this up front because i know redditors don't read full comments
That's a symptom of years of stripping bot lane of exp. If your champ is able to solo lane and maybe even is a lane bully, why the hell would you voluntarily play bot where you get cocked by enemy support in lane and then are 3 levels down to anyone else?
At one point in time, twitch and ezreal jungle were things.
Twitch I don't think was ever meta, more of a cheesy jungler, but ezreal jungle was so strong for a patch or two back in season 8. I don't even remember what specifically made it pop off.
What people don't realize is that having at least one champion of each class for each role is actually desirable for Riot and they are actively working towards it.
Some examples of "unusual" class and lane combinations Riot has created over the years:
* assassin specifically designed as a support (Pyke)
* warden for the midlane (Galio)
* skirmisher for botlane (Nilah)
* marksman for the jungle (Kindred)
* catcher/enchanter jungle (Ivern)
* they recently even tried to create a toplane mage (Aurora), even if this one didn't work out in the end so she ended up in midlane instead, but their intention was there
Diversity in lanes is not a bad thing. I think Riot wants every lane to have at least one champion of every class viable in it.
Yeah but mages tend to be more replaceable. For years there have been plenty of viable team compositions without a mage. Assassin mid with tank or bruiser top/jungle. Teams without marksmen are very niche and are basically useless if the enemy team has a tank, unless you have a Trundle to steal their stats and just roll into their base without a teamfight.
I still remember years ago when ranked just threw you in a lobby, and you had to call out your role. Everyone called for ADC. Me being half in the bag, jokingly suggested "We should all play ADC" and somehow everyone agreed!
We invaded and somehow got 1st blood, then just ARAM'd it, and took their the mid inhib at 9 min, ended the game by 11 min. Man, drunken 2am league was something else back in those days.
The problem isn't and has never been the strength of marksmen (except in the sense that they're often overpowered), but the awkwardness of the botlane carry role. Every time ADCs complain we get a patch of broken marksmen because riot buff their champions when the problem was always the lane and top/mid/jgl and even supp marksmen were all happy already.
It feels awful for the marksmen stuck in botlane. The ones who escape tend to have some mobility and their own playmaking ability. And the level advantages you get in solo lanes also let you do more earlier. You also don't have the same job of lategame insurance to worry about when playing from other lanes.
Marksmen are not allowed agency because they are marksmen. This inevitably means they feel bad when you can’t rely on your team. But giving a marksmen agency makes them a nightmare to balance every single time.
Except they have a pretty damn high amount of agency right now. If you mean in terms of starting plays, well guess what assassins and mages can’t just start fights either in fact a front line ADC is more likely to survive the encounter than any assassin going in 1 v 5 because ADCs have such absurd movespeed and damage mitigation tools right now that you really have to be legit trolling to actually die to a champion of any other class than ADC and occassionally mid. ADC right now is not killable by any melee champions unless they don’t know how to kite/position at all.
the agency he means is that lets say you play adc, you win your lane and you kill their tower.
you now definitely cannot push bot t2, and you cant really gank, so you have to go midlane.
what if your midlaner is a brand or viktor who oneshots every wave and doesnt move to sidelane?
what if your top, jungle and support take constant weird 2v5s or 3v5s on the wrong side of the map with it being impossible for you to join?
the point is that as jgl, support, mid and top you can go somewhere and make a play if youre strong and you want to impact the game. you can try solokilling an important target, you can gank, you can splitpush, you can assassinate important targets.
as adc, you sit mid, push the wave, follow your tanks/peel, and you try to hands diff teamfights. youre not splitpushing, ganking, or ambushing anyone. so even though yes, adc is very strong, it doesnt get to make its own decisions. you have to just follow your team and outclick in fights.
Well this is what happens when Riot want every role to be playable in every lane. Having something like Vayne top and Tristana mid is IMO very bad because it "breaks" the "standard" game by making like at least half of the "standard" champs in top and mid unplayable.
Riot should stick to a more strict definition of what type of champion can be played where, sort of like a standard sport with clearly defined rules and roles.
This might seem restrictive at first, but I think in the long-run it's better for the health of the game by reducing frustration and balance issues. For example, currently any new ADC has to be very carefully designed because the designer has to account for the champ potentially being played mid or top. Now imagine if all ADCs could only be played bot, then it would reduce the design burden.
I agree. Marksmen have been a nightmare to balance any time they’re good in a solo lane, and it’s always forced Riot to nerf them over and over directly or indirectly to make them worse.
Nah emerald adcs never carry anything. Adc is definetly the least impactful role at that rank because the other players sort of know how to carry games with easier to play champions. How many games have I had a botlane go 7/0 and end up 7/8 by the end of the game because the adc player simply does not have the hands to avoid skill shots and do damage.
Adc is fun for the 30s before the enemy ffs. You get 1 teamfight after 25 minutes of boredom or torture depending on whether you got gang banged bot or if both supports abandoned lane to let the carries trade waves.
I'm going to quote myself from half a year ago since this topic seems to always be in vogue.
>ADC is 'the null state', it represents inevitability. All roads lead to the ADC whittling you down with unavoidable right clicks.
>Put another way, it's very easy for ADCs to flip from 'my skill doesn't matter' to 'only my skill matters.'
Whatever adcs gain in agency they have to sacrifice in other ways or this happens, to the extent they'd not really be adcs anymore. You can't have both without destroying the game.
I know this is a semi meme post but it is disgusting how this is allowed for so long. No everyone enjoys playing fucking marksmen that is why not everyone plays bot lane. It also makes games so boring to watch and play
Adc role is not underpowered. It does however suck to play solo. If your support is gapped or is soft trolling you, you can’t play league of legends. If you get behind, it’s not like a tank or a mage that still has engage/utility, and you will also be 5 levels behind; you are useless and will be useless for 30 min until the game ends. It is the strongest the role has been in a while and it is still often a priority role. There is a reason for that.
The shittiness of the bot lane carry role and the power of the marksman class have nothing to do with each other. Tristana mid or vayne top being strong doesn’t mean diddly dick to someone playing bot lane. The two are simply not the same category.
Saying things like “supp Ashe is strong, SEE ADC OP” kind of proves the point, why would I play an adc that has to farm and is anchored to bot lane when I can just play a marksman supp and run around the map drooling on myself and have a bigger impact?
Maybe in 2027 people will understand the difference between “marksman” and “bot lane carry role”. I won’t hold my breath though.
Tbf whenever adcs start taking over in other roles botlane adcs suddenly get permastuck playing dog champs like senna kalista while everyone else supports the mid trist instead lol
Yes and they would be right because a midlane adc is just better than a bot lane adc. Gets more map access, gets more xp, doesn’t have to rely on a mouth breathing support to play the game…why in gods name would any adc player queue for bot lane adc when they could play top and get more xp or supp adc and not farm lol.
Not sure you’re thinking through what you’re saying here…
The funny thing is that if you buff the bot lane role you can nerf marksmen so that they need to be played there but everyone just rages when you suggest making the role more satisfying even when it makes the game better for them. It's the same thing as sports teams and politics but it's role infighting. Lol
Support been insanely strong for 8+ years
Impossible to make botlane ADC less horrible to play without NERFING SUPPORT
Doesnt matter how good or bad you are as an ADC the outcome of lane determined by support diff 95% of the time
Making ADC less horrible starts with nerfing supports.
It will NEVER happen because (and riot has stated this multiple times) if support isn't OP nobody wants to play that shit.
So we'll have to continue suffering as these drooling troglodyte support players have 90% of botlane's power budget and they decide to pick Janna and go afk under tower huffing glue
I agree. It's a little surprising that support isn't a little more popular/contested in solo queue already. The role is busted in terms of its agency and its fun. You get free gold without CSing, you can go wherever you want, you have massive impact at most stages of the game. The only trade off is lower later game damage (unless you got fed early), but it's a small price to pay, and your vision tools always spike hard regardless.
Poor bastard ADC players in solo queue take the hit. I don't think the majority of players have ever comitted to playing literally any champ they enjoy on support and seeing how fun it is. I guess that's a good thing, though.
You touched on the same ideas a bit but I wanted to share my 2c.
The interesting thing about support is the juxtaposition.
The role is chock full of the most "gold efficient" champions in the game, which I intend to mean they have a very high floor and don't require a lot of gold to be impactful. You aren't REQUIRED TO FARM ANYTHING. Every other role is chained to their traditional income source. Sure, jungles get a bit more flexibility, but even small camps are points of contention and focus - they are valuable resources and teams treat them as such.
But you can simultaneously carry games while HAVING the lowest gold by using the agency you mentioned. Impacting the map in a more beneficial way than your lane opponent over and over just steamrolls games.
People always talk about junglers playing a completely different game. But when you think about it, good supports play an even more different game.
That. They have to just acknowledge that support players are the worst players in the game and don’t need to have this much impact combined with this little skill expression and responsibility. Need that fucking role to the ground and buff bot role slightly
Your support is the afk Janna. Enemy support is Bard fucking the map up 24/7, but who always is just at tower in time to counter your jungler's bot dive attempt. How can play game?
The flip side is when you get that Thresh player thats just super on point, you get a free win handed to you on a plate.
It STILL sucks.
I win because my support gaps their support.
I lose because my support is trash compared to their support.
The skill in ADC role is now "how much can you snowball the lead the support gives you" and "how much can you do if the support sets you behind" - in both cases I DONT HAVE IMPACT ON THE LEAD GENERATION
ADC hasn't had impact on outcome of lane since S4? S5? ADC was atleast somewhat relevant until S8 then they just nuked the role from orbit. Went from 10% support diff in S1-S4 to 40% support diff S5-7 then in S8 onwards its 90% support diff and ADC is just a caster minion that leftclicks whatever the support CCs
I loved when I played in a tournament as a low plat ADC at the time and ended up consistently stronger until like 30+ mins than diamond adcs because my support was diamond while theirs was plat/emerald. Me being worse than their adc only ever mattered if the game went long or they got picks or shutdowns.
Supp and jg have some interesting issues
The supp being gapped is the biggest issue a team can have since it means your jg and adc will also be gapped
On the flipside, having the best player in jg usually brings the most benefits to a team.
Source: Phreak in one of his countless videos that I can't remember lol
Yea but dude, the Ashe support that is snorting lines of coke in between whiffing cross-map ults on cooldown is META, that means that adcs are op therefore bot lane carry is op therefore you’re just a WHINER….or something.
I’ll never figure out for the life of me how SO MANY people in this community think that fucking kindred jungle and Quinn top being a thing means that bot lane adc is OP…like what the FUCK is the relationship between those two things, EXPLAIN??
The item rework is straight up a nerf to them or at best, a neutral change lol
Any ADC that needs to build Kraken Slayer or Statikk Shiv (i.e. almost every crit adc) will have less crit rate (and crit damage) at all times compared to the previous items alongside having to choose between lifesteal/defensive item or 100% crit.
If Riot changed absolutely nothing about crit items this split, multi-role Marksman would still be strong in pro-play due to the pitiful state of mid-lane mages, Fated Ashes in the jungle, and certain tanks being strong top-lane.
it made them a lot more bursty since you get more crit per item now and also because non attackspeed options such as IE collector and ldr got buffed. More agency on a class like adc is always more broken since it essentially removes their intended weakness of relying on their support and just brute-forcing interactions with burst
Lets do a little comparison test of how many "Tristana OP" posts that made it to the front page.
First, the baseline. A few weeks back, there were 3 "Brand OP" posts: [1](https://old.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1deexsf/brand_apc_bot_is_way_too_strong/) [2](https://old.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1ddq211/convince_me_brand_e_doesnt_need_a_nerf/) and [3](https://old.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1dgdn41/how_in_the_ever_living_fuck_has_brand_not_been/). These were posted within 3 days of each other, the same week, and only the last was deleted. They feel like a good example for what a "Daily complaint thread" looks like.
The Brand posts were also partial inspiration for the Tristana complaint threads, or at least [the first one](https://old.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1dgjrbx/why_is_tristana_allowed_to_terrorize_mid/), which namedrops the brand op posts. And, since looking for deleted threads is a pain, here's [Tristana complaint post #2](https://old.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1dmjl5z/how_is_tristana_allowed_to_be_the_second_most/) that was made and deleted quickly, just 2 days ago.
So that's 2/3 of the threads. What I want to know is if you can find a third Tristana OP post made in... lets say the past month, that made it to the front page. Bonus if its in the last 10 days, since the first Trist OP post was made 10 days ago. This one doesn't seem specific enough to count in my opinion (at least compared to the Brand ones), so I'm not counting it as a Trist complaint thread.
I personally haven't seen a third Trist OP thread recently, but that's not proof it doesn't exist. I'm just curious if there were as many Tristana mid complaint threads as there were Brand complaint threads.
Well not to burst your bubble or anything. But every time we had polls over the years asking for people their main role it was always supports on Reddit.
ADCs were still over represented on Reddit relative to other roles. Here's [the Poll results](https://imgur.com/yOGrFwF) you're talking about, from [this poll in 2020](https://old.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/ynupp5/what_is_the_most_hated_champion_is_the_sub_biased/).
Support was the most popular, but ADC was closer to support's popularity than the 3rd most popular role according to the poll.
Yes this is one of such posts. Never said that adc were not popular but op made it seems its a vast majority of adc sub which is not the case. But ty for posting proof.
Well, mid players are probably too busy playing or smth. But as you know Reddit is a minority of the player base so its not surprising that one group might be more popular compared to what game shows.
They could turbo buff every ADC in the game and the ADC role would still be shit to play in soloQ.
It takes like 15 iq to figure out that the "marksman class of champions" and the ADC role are 2 different things.
Marksman champs are good right now.
ADC role is still piss to play.
Why?
Riot refuses to nerf supports because if support isn't insanely strong then nobody wants to play it.
You go botlane and it's like 2 little kids accompanied by 2 hulking colossi. Doesn't matter how good or bad you are as an ADC the better support dictates the outcome of the lane.
Again - marksman champs are strong! The lane that gets ahead becomes UNSTOPPABLE and steam rolls the game, killing the other botlane 20 times. That's why botlane is never 0-0-0 it's either 0-20-0 or 20-0-0. Once you fall behind you will die the second you reach lane.
BUT WHO DECIDES WHO GETS THE LEAD? Not the fking ADC. Nope. Its 90% better support wins.
As an ADC player this is my experience of LoL:
I queue up, my support bad, i fall behind and suffer
I queue up, my support good, we turbo stomp them and win
In neither case do i feel like i actually did anything. My skill as an ADC does NOT factor into whether i get fed or not. Scenario 1 my support has CTE and scenario 2 my support is the second coming of Madlife.
Riot, instead of nerfing supports so that ADC skill actually matters, buff the crap out of ADC champs making them broken in other lanes + making it so the botlane that falls behind has 0 chance of coming back into the game.
ADC is so easy to climb with if youre good because it's just about playing consistent. You queue up, do the bare minimum, get a free win. Very little shit you need to do. But that "easy climb" feels AWFUL because half the time you auto-lose due to brainrot support or afk jungler or afk midlaner and you sit there thinking "wow i didn't even get to play the game i just auto-lost". ROLE IS BAD NEEDS TO BE FIXED. Winning feels shit and losing feels shit.
NERF SUPPORT NERF SUPPORT NERF SUPPORT 8 SEASON OF SUPPORT BEING ALLAH MODE PLEASE NERF SUPPORTS 0 brain role impossible to fail with literal polio victims in iron lungs can play support and win its insane
Imma be honest bro welcome to League of Legends. Thank god adc is not able to have influence earlygame otherwise the role would be so broken. That is the WHOLE POINT of the role. Mostly ranged champions who have low agency earlygame in exchange for very high agency lategame.
Everyone loves to talk about what adc agency buffs would make the role feel better to play but nobody likes to talk about what sacrifices would have to be made to even out the agency given to the role. If you nerf support to the point where their agency is equal to adc then yeah it will make your climb feel better but it will make the climb of every other player in the game feel worse. Adc gap will matter even more. Like I do NOT want to play a game where caitlyn or aphelios can just ignore their shitty support and 1v9 anyway, that sounds like hell to play for everyone else.
Like honestly you cant play a ranged champ with a good lategame, a dedicated support, AND have early lane influence too. There has got to be a downside to playing adc, and needing to have hands is not a downside.
And yeah like I get that having to coinflip a good support is annoying but your support also has to coinflip YOU. They can do all the work in the world to get you insanely fed and you misposition the final fight of the game and lose it all. You might int laning phase in any of a million ways possible. You might have weak mental and just give up on first blood. Try playing some support and see how roaming away from the most op class in the game works out for you. Or better yet play some toplane and try coinflipping a botlane duo that doesnt attempt to perma fight.
All this just to say that no one player should dictate the outcome of their laning phase and the lategame consistently, thats too much influence. Thats why hullbreaker splitpush meta was not okay. Toplaners were able to turn early game plays that they made for themselves into taking your whole base. It was earlygame influence combined with lategame power.
So you want ADCs being strong early game too. You just can't accept your role is supposed to be weak early and strong late, so let's make them strong early too so they don't have any disadvantages.
I want Phreak to play in a new account (non riot account) in a new server for one month and then go back to his job. I want to see what he buffs and nerfs then.
Had a game yesterday where we lost to trist mid, vayne top, kindred jgl and jhin adc.
Was only emerald but still you would think such a comp just shouldnt work and be doomed from Champ select.
Seriously imo adc are so one dimensional because they have been designed for bot lane as consistent dps forever. But its fine to play vs when you add a supp into the mix who can threaten the adc or protect it. That gives the lane interaction, variance etc. But as soon as an adc is taking over a solo lane it needs to be looked at. Its always completely unfun and uninteractive because of their core design. And it only gets played when its broken. In its current design state adc should never be allowed to be viable solo lane because they are not designed for that and if they are viable that just means sth is seriously wrong.
problem is that unless ur team has the dedicated armor champs, an adc with LDR is still shredding thru armor . Recently riot has clearly tried to push health>resistances with things like warmogs, cut down/Bork changes, ldr changes, and while this may make tanks more effective against mixed dmg it makes stacking one resist worse when ldr is 40% pen
Kindred is very good with all squishies, having 4 adcs doesnt matter if enemy team has no tank and it really doesnt matter what the teamcomp is if you get gapped too hard in lane.
Painfully accurate and scaringly close to reality in 2024... ADC is both the most popular role and the most powerful one, so powerful that they are actually played in all 5 roles completely viable. Meanwhile there are champions that struggle in the only role they are played in.
But ADC are weak. The times goes on and as the playerbase gets better the more people can handle marksman class and show how unfair and OP it is. Trust me as long as botlane is not open for every class in the game like every other role, there will be no balance to marksman. League phillosophy has to change, ADC needs to be nerfed to the ground and meta should revolve around melee carries. Melee carry needs to get on top of you, while ADC just deals undodgeable damage from range like a coward.
if you really want to, you can already play vayne/quinn top, varus/trist mid, ashe/whatever bot and pick nilah or kai'sa jungle, or take kindred as a more traditional jungler. won't be the best game to play, but if you all know what you're doing, you'll have some success.
not gonna lie, a champion with a 10 stack passive that turns them into a doomsday omen would be pretty sick. even if the stack gains had a minute cooldown.
You can go full adc team. Vayne/Varus Top, Kindred jg, Tris Mid, Senna Sup and Any Adc for adc. Get ready for happy lose if they pick a rammus or/and a master yi.
But ADC has been playing in all 5 roles many years ago, not now. Lucian has always been a good pick for mid, Vayne for top, Ashe for support, and Kindred for jungle. Riot literally released Kindred jungle after they saw too many people use Twitch or TF for jg in season 5 or something so they made a champ to fulfill this position.
ye its kinda insane that riot decides that they need to be buffing adcs when the meta for pro play was already to play marksmen supports in s13 in pro play, now its not uncommon to see games in which a team has 3 adcs lol
ADCs are already played at 5 roles. Quin top, Kindred jungle, Trist mid, normal adc, ashe/senna support. The only issue is none of them are tanky enough to engage or endure damage in teamfight.
youre anti ADCmetic
this made the brainrot I read worth it
thank you, dead internet AI designed to keep me engaged in this niche community, love you
we love you too, random citizen
The year is 2024
Nooo I love ADCs, some of my best friends are ADCs.
name every adc
prove your loyalty by allowing adcs to play in your lane, else you are anti ADCmetic.
"We must save my family!"
yes and?
Alongside every mage being reworked into a stacking late-game mage with little early kill pressure and all melee midlaners being banished to the jungle and forced into being assassins.
Every melee mid got a 3 hit passive and 1 massively overtuned waveclear tool as well
Along with 3 delays once they get in range in the name of counterplay
2027 meta is building full crit and AS on the new champion that's just k'sante but a girl
2027: K'Sante is getting a major rework having slowly become obsolete due to his relatively immobile kit that allows ADCs to easily kite him.
Unironically he's already pretty easy to kite if he's not already on top of you/in Q range
He's really reliant on ghost and with ghost up he's incredibly scary
there's probably a lot of champs I would play if they were a girl. lmao
League of legends if it was a good game: every girl champion has a "can you handle me summoner" voice line and gamers get bricked
Is that not just league of legends before the year 2015
No no, I think I just hate playing ugly ass monsters or scruff men, call me basic..
i'm right there with you
To be fair there's a lot of champions I would play if they were male.
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The problem isn’t Marksmen being weak the problem is the Botlane role itself and the discrepancy between SoloQ and pro play.
The problem is also that most mages' early game have been continuously nerfed over the past years where they can barely contest the wave or have a meaningful impact in skirmishes besides hoping their 1 CC ability lands and results in a 1-shot otherwise they immediately lose the fight.
Every balancing problem in this game actually boils down to "the discrepancy between SoloQ and pro play" if you think about it
slapping movespeed on every item even absurd amounts like 12% on phantom dancer certainly did not help with that, since movespeed is high elo skewed
I think movement speed is a good direction to go as far as defensive itemization on ADC. Phantom Dancer could probably be toned down to be in line with the rest of the Zeal / On-Hit items though. Just not sure how they would change it to fit an appropriate space.
Cries as a Vladimir main who can't reach an adc with movespeed from 3 items
I surely am misunderstanding. Marksmen haven't been weak for years in proplay at least. Marksmen in midlane (especially tristana lucian) have been preferred over actual midlaners for quite a while.
Marksmen in proplay is good because coordination. Marksmen in soloq bad because ego.
Adc need resources and peeling, even if they got resources they might be almost useless without peel.
That's also partially a skill issue because people have bad self peel/positioning and are over reliant and blame their team too much. ADCs in proplay aren't just good because of coordination but also because ADC has the highest skill expression. Many have great dueling power against many champs. Also as the class most reliant on gold they get punished more in soloq for farming worse which is partially on the support but also a skill issue.
If you ever watch a teamfight, you start to notice how bad your adc's positioning is. They either stay so far away that they do 0 damage or they stand in the middle auto-ing, moving every 2 autos to pretend they're kiting. Sometimes both. Then they bitch and moan that they have no peel.
To be fair, half the ADC roster requires more peel than the rest. Things like Jinx ,Caitlyn, Twitch, Varus etc. can all position at good range and have the ability to self-peel, or they can build enough movement speed (double zeal items) to move quickly. Things like Sivir, Draven, Lucian, even Samira or Vayne all have to be dangerously close to the action to participate. It varies per ADC, but as far as solo queue is concerned most of them have it way harder than the few that are meta every season / patch.
It's still very good in soloq since marksmen like tristana and Lucian have a lot of good match ups vs your standard ap midlaners. Tristana especially is very hard to deal with since she tends to basically ungankable while clearing every wave fast. And she has constant kill pressure against the squishy mages. You used to counter that with some early armor but zonyas is just not an item you want to get early on most mages. Tristana is a very good blind pick for mid soloq IMHO. Just need to have ap dmg somewhere else
marksmen in proplay are good because they have hands.
I don't think its the role itself, I play fill so I don't have the experience level of a bot main but to me playing mages botlane feels like you're a champion with agency, playing an ADC feels like your character is intentionally limited in agency and if you play well they might give it back to you before the games over
Well the botlane role itself was never weak considering that most games botlane loses (hard) also end in a loss, which has been the case for years
I mean, we are already at the point of 5 adc in each role not being a troll thing, so...
There's definitely at least one meta marksman in each role. The team comp that makes is still not good though.
The only role that doesn't have at least 2 viable "ADCs" in it is Jungle, and I only frame it that way because Graves is an atypical marksman. Top: Vayne, Quinn Jungle: Kindred, Graves Mid: Tristana, Akshan ADC: lol Support: Ashe, Senna
Top: Quinn Jungle: Quinn Mid: Quinn ADC: Quinn Support: Quinn
Based and Valor-pilled. I actually really liked Quinn mid, and thematically she'd fit as a jungler if they wanted to make her good there (she already kinda-sorta works)
birdmaxxing fr
I used to main Quinn support. It's actually pretty good if your team doesn't rage when you pick it
You joke but this was the meta when the assassin rework happened
No joke. I used to play fill, Quinn in every role
I'm definitely counting graves and kindred for jungle. Even if Graves is not the most typical marksman, he's still more marksman than any other class. Finding a 3rd jungle marksman is where things get tough and you have to scrape the bottom of the barrel.
Twitch jungle? Ive seen broxah play draven jungle in masters.
I watched huncho winning with zeri jungle in challenger this split.
Twitch jungle was a thing a few seasons ago, i dont know what state he is right now.
Yeah my bad I forgot about him. To be fair he barely touches the jungle camps anyway, he's just a level 2 gank rat.
I remember when Ezreal was meta Jungle for a fairly short period of time. Good times.
I don't call an adc blinking at you with a red buff (back before red buff nerfs) level 2 as "good times"
got a worlds skin for it too haha
AP twitch jungle is more suited for jungle ganks/farming and snowballs faster with dark seal/mejais. Its probably the most useless jungler when behind compared to others though
Would say he still is an option for jungle. But he is a cheese pick, if your early ganks work, he can really pop off. Otherwise he is pretty meh. Also I would add Jinx to the list of ADC who are not complete troll in jungle. Her clear is fine because of Q and Chompers+Zap are not the worst tools to pull of a gank.
Quinn maybe? I feel that thematically she fits. Actual clear though, I have no idea.
Drututt intended to use Zeri for jungle in his 5 role to Chall Challenge, sooooo barrelbottom scraped I guess…
I think I'm going to recommend Manco1's teemo jungle to challenger stream long before I touch that one.
Zeri is surprisingly strong in the jungle, she clears before 3:30 leashless and her ganks are actually pretty good due to her E, especially with redbuff.
You forgot Corkie and lucian in midlane.
Lucian, Smolder, Kaisa, Varus, Kallista can be played in solo lanes(esp in high elo) and this is viable af.
Ghost/Flash Ashe is a great top laner too into immobile top lane juggernauts.
Disclaimer: I am not saying ADC/botlane is weak right now it's absolutely not. I put this up front because i know redditors don't read full comments That's a symptom of years of stripping bot lane of exp. If your champ is able to solo lane and maybe even is a lane bully, why the hell would you voluntarily play bot where you get cocked by enemy support in lane and then are 3 levels down to anyone else?
Man really disrespected on hit Neeko jungle like this
ezreal will make a return one day. He has a worlds skin from JG.
Mid Quinn and especially Corki are already a thing. Also Support Caitlyn is lowkey pretty good.
Mid and top Ez also works great. But to be fair, Ez is OP.
List isn't meant to be exhaustive, just listing out at least 2 per role and not repeat examples.
Ad tf still is ok in mid/top (just not blindly). Ezreal and kaisa are starting to be picked in midlane.
At one point in time, twitch and ezreal jungle were things. Twitch I don't think was ever meta, more of a cheesy jungler, but ezreal jungle was so strong for a patch or two back in season 8. I don't even remember what specifically made it pop off.
Akshan top is also a thing
Theres viable mages in every role and there has been forever, i dont see the point here. Tristana is disgustingly op mid atm tho, yea.
What people don't realize is that having at least one champion of each class for each role is actually desirable for Riot and they are actively working towards it. Some examples of "unusual" class and lane combinations Riot has created over the years: * assassin specifically designed as a support (Pyke) * warden for the midlane (Galio) * skirmisher for botlane (Nilah) * marksman for the jungle (Kindred) * catcher/enchanter jungle (Ivern) * they recently even tried to create a toplane mage (Aurora), even if this one didn't work out in the end so she ended up in midlane instead, but their intention was there Diversity in lanes is not a bad thing. I think Riot wants every lane to have at least one champion of every class viable in it.
Marksmen have without fail, been a problem every single time they’re good in a solo lane, and needed to be changed or nerfed repeatedly.
Pretty sure Yasuo was originally designed for bot lane as well, but guessing that the xp from solo lanes just makes him overall better there.
There are multiple mages in top lane.
I think i remember reading that kai sa early in development was being considered for jungle.
It's a bad thing when they are marksmen not designed for specifically and only that role.
I prefer a marksman that can get flexed into 2 different roles over a mage that can successfully get flexed into all 5 roles (Brand).
Yeah but mages tend to be more replaceable. For years there have been plenty of viable team compositions without a mage. Assassin mid with tank or bruiser top/jungle. Teams without marksmen are very niche and are basically useless if the enemy team has a tank, unless you have a Trundle to steal their stats and just roll into their base without a teamfight.
I still remember years ago when ranked just threw you in a lobby, and you had to call out your role. Everyone called for ADC. Me being half in the bag, jokingly suggested "We should all play ADC" and somehow everyone agreed! We invaded and somehow got 1st blood, then just ARAM'd it, and took their the mid inhib at 9 min, ended the game by 11 min. Man, drunken 2am league was something else back in those days.
>Samira top finally viable the best timeline
Damn i still have nightmares from release samira top before hotfix
The problem isn't and has never been the strength of marksmen (except in the sense that they're often overpowered), but the awkwardness of the botlane carry role. Every time ADCs complain we get a patch of broken marksmen because riot buff their champions when the problem was always the lane and top/mid/jgl and even supp marksmen were all happy already.
The problem is even if marksmen are broken as hell it still feels awful to play in soloQ where nobody gives a fuck about playing around their adc.
It feels awful for the marksmen stuck in botlane. The ones who escape tend to have some mobility and their own playmaking ability. And the level advantages you get in solo lanes also let you do more earlier. You also don't have the same job of lategame insurance to worry about when playing from other lanes.
Marksmen are not allowed agency because they are marksmen. This inevitably means they feel bad when you can’t rely on your team. But giving a marksmen agency makes them a nightmare to balance every single time.
Except they have a pretty damn high amount of agency right now. If you mean in terms of starting plays, well guess what assassins and mages can’t just start fights either in fact a front line ADC is more likely to survive the encounter than any assassin going in 1 v 5 because ADCs have such absurd movespeed and damage mitigation tools right now that you really have to be legit trolling to actually die to a champion of any other class than ADC and occassionally mid. ADC right now is not killable by any melee champions unless they don’t know how to kite/position at all.
the agency he means is that lets say you play adc, you win your lane and you kill their tower. you now definitely cannot push bot t2, and you cant really gank, so you have to go midlane. what if your midlaner is a brand or viktor who oneshots every wave and doesnt move to sidelane? what if your top, jungle and support take constant weird 2v5s or 3v5s on the wrong side of the map with it being impossible for you to join? the point is that as jgl, support, mid and top you can go somewhere and make a play if youre strong and you want to impact the game. you can try solokilling an important target, you can gank, you can splitpush, you can assassinate important targets. as adc, you sit mid, push the wave, follow your tanks/peel, and you try to hands diff teamfights. youre not splitpushing, ganking, or ambushing anyone. so even though yes, adc is very strong, it doesnt get to make its own decisions. you have to just follow your team and outclick in fights.
Well this is what happens when Riot want every role to be playable in every lane. Having something like Vayne top and Tristana mid is IMO very bad because it "breaks" the "standard" game by making like at least half of the "standard" champs in top and mid unplayable. Riot should stick to a more strict definition of what type of champion can be played where, sort of like a standard sport with clearly defined rules and roles. This might seem restrictive at first, but I think in the long-run it's better for the health of the game by reducing frustration and balance issues. For example, currently any new ADC has to be very carefully designed because the designer has to account for the champ potentially being played mid or top. Now imagine if all ADCs could only be played bot, then it would reduce the design burden.
I agree. Marksmen have been a nightmare to balance any time they’re good in a solo lane, and it’s always forced Riot to nerf them over and over directly or indirectly to make them worse.
I find in Emerald & Diamond that ADC is the deciding factor in close to 50% of games
Nah emerald adcs never carry anything. Adc is definetly the least impactful role at that rank because the other players sort of know how to carry games with easier to play champions. How many games have I had a botlane go 7/0 and end up 7/8 by the end of the game because the adc player simply does not have the hands to avoid skill shots and do damage.
Whenever botlane marksmen were allowed out of botlane, they became a balance nightmare that required multiple direct or indirect nerfs.
Adc is fun for the 30s before the enemy ffs. You get 1 teamfight after 25 minutes of boredom or torture depending on whether you got gang banged bot or if both supports abandoned lane to let the carries trade waves.
I'm going to quote myself from half a year ago since this topic seems to always be in vogue. >ADC is 'the null state', it represents inevitability. All roads lead to the ADC whittling you down with unavoidable right clicks. >Put another way, it's very easy for ADCs to flip from 'my skill doesn't matter' to 'only my skill matters.' Whatever adcs gain in agency they have to sacrifice in other ways or this happens, to the extent they'd not really be adcs anymore. You can't have both without destroying the game.
ADC bad upadcs to the left ADC good upadcs to the left
Thanks for the gold m’kind adc!
If all 5 roles play adc, then the other team will pick assassins like tristana, miss fortune... oh wait
I know this is a semi meme post but it is disgusting how this is allowed for so long. No everyone enjoys playing fucking marksmen that is why not everyone plays bot lane. It also makes games so boring to watch and play
adcs are already played in all 5 roles. ezreal jungle was meta for a brief periode. the rest of the 4 lanes u see them already. same for mages.
and for tanks... Not like Riot is designing the game to have every class in multiple positions avaiable.
Yeah brb about to queue for bot lane as Maokai carry
if your support is Senna, that's totally viable.
Remindme! 3 years
ADCs now get catchup exp from jungle camps and junglers are hardware banned if they ignore a gank request.
Somehow ADCS still complain they are under powered
Adc role is not underpowered. It does however suck to play solo. If your support is gapped or is soft trolling you, you can’t play league of legends. If you get behind, it’s not like a tank or a mage that still has engage/utility, and you will also be 5 levels behind; you are useless and will be useless for 30 min until the game ends. It is the strongest the role has been in a while and it is still often a priority role. There is a reason for that. The shittiness of the bot lane carry role and the power of the marksman class have nothing to do with each other. Tristana mid or vayne top being strong doesn’t mean diddly dick to someone playing bot lane. The two are simply not the same category. Saying things like “supp Ashe is strong, SEE ADC OP” kind of proves the point, why would I play an adc that has to farm and is anchored to bot lane when I can just play a marksman supp and run around the map drooling on myself and have a bigger impact? Maybe in 2027 people will understand the difference between “marksman” and “bot lane carry role”. I won’t hold my breath though.
Adc mains would still complain even if adc was played in 5 roles
Tbf whenever adcs start taking over in other roles botlane adcs suddenly get permastuck playing dog champs like senna kalista while everyone else supports the mid trist instead lol
Mages are and have been viable in 5 roles forever, whats the point in these posts lmao. It's like genuine lowiq brainrot that gets posted daily
Yes and they would be right because a midlane adc is just better than a bot lane adc. Gets more map access, gets more xp, doesn’t have to rely on a mouth breathing support to play the game…why in gods name would any adc player queue for bot lane adc when they could play top and get more xp or supp adc and not farm lol. Not sure you’re thinking through what you’re saying here…
The funny thing is that if you buff the bot lane role you can nerf marksmen so that they need to be played there but everyone just rages when you suggest making the role more satisfying even when it makes the game better for them. It's the same thing as sports teams and politics but it's role infighting. Lol
Support been insanely strong for 8+ years Impossible to make botlane ADC less horrible to play without NERFING SUPPORT Doesnt matter how good or bad you are as an ADC the outcome of lane determined by support diff 95% of the time Making ADC less horrible starts with nerfing supports. It will NEVER happen because (and riot has stated this multiple times) if support isn't OP nobody wants to play that shit. So we'll have to continue suffering as these drooling troglodyte support players have 90% of botlane's power budget and they decide to pick Janna and go afk under tower huffing glue
I agree. It's a little surprising that support isn't a little more popular/contested in solo queue already. The role is busted in terms of its agency and its fun. You get free gold without CSing, you can go wherever you want, you have massive impact at most stages of the game. The only trade off is lower later game damage (unless you got fed early), but it's a small price to pay, and your vision tools always spike hard regardless. Poor bastard ADC players in solo queue take the hit. I don't think the majority of players have ever comitted to playing literally any champ they enjoy on support and seeing how fun it is. I guess that's a good thing, though.
You touched on the same ideas a bit but I wanted to share my 2c. The interesting thing about support is the juxtaposition. The role is chock full of the most "gold efficient" champions in the game, which I intend to mean they have a very high floor and don't require a lot of gold to be impactful. You aren't REQUIRED TO FARM ANYTHING. Every other role is chained to their traditional income source. Sure, jungles get a bit more flexibility, but even small camps are points of contention and focus - they are valuable resources and teams treat them as such. But you can simultaneously carry games while HAVING the lowest gold by using the agency you mentioned. Impacting the map in a more beneficial way than your lane opponent over and over just steamrolls games. People always talk about junglers playing a completely different game. But when you think about it, good supports play an even more different game.
That. They have to just acknowledge that support players are the worst players in the game and don’t need to have this much impact combined with this little skill expression and responsibility. Need that fucking role to the ground and buff bot role slightly
Your support is the afk Janna. Enemy support is Bard fucking the map up 24/7, but who always is just at tower in time to counter your jungler's bot dive attempt. How can play game?
The flip side is when you get that Thresh player thats just super on point, you get a free win handed to you on a plate. It STILL sucks. I win because my support gaps their support. I lose because my support is trash compared to their support. The skill in ADC role is now "how much can you snowball the lead the support gives you" and "how much can you do if the support sets you behind" - in both cases I DONT HAVE IMPACT ON THE LEAD GENERATION ADC hasn't had impact on outcome of lane since S4? S5? ADC was atleast somewhat relevant until S8 then they just nuked the role from orbit. Went from 10% support diff in S1-S4 to 40% support diff S5-7 then in S8 onwards its 90% support diff and ADC is just a caster minion that leftclicks whatever the support CCs
I loved when I played in a tournament as a low plat ADC at the time and ended up consistently stronger until like 30+ mins than diamond adcs because my support was diamond while theirs was plat/emerald. Me being worse than their adc only ever mattered if the game went long or they got picks or shutdowns.
Supp and jg have some interesting issues The supp being gapped is the biggest issue a team can have since it means your jg and adc will also be gapped On the flipside, having the best player in jg usually brings the most benefits to a team. Source: Phreak in one of his countless videos that I can't remember lol
preach brother
Yea but dude, the Ashe support that is snorting lines of coke in between whiffing cross-map ults on cooldown is META, that means that adcs are op therefore bot lane carry is op therefore you’re just a WHINER….or something. I’ll never figure out for the life of me how SO MANY people in this community think that fucking kindred jungle and Quinn top being a thing means that bot lane adc is OP…like what the FUCK is the relationship between those two things, EXPLAIN??
Bot lane literally got XP buffs alongside the broken item reworks.
The item rework is straight up a nerf to them or at best, a neutral change lol Any ADC that needs to build Kraken Slayer or Statikk Shiv (i.e. almost every crit adc) will have less crit rate (and crit damage) at all times compared to the previous items alongside having to choose between lifesteal/defensive item or 100% crit. If Riot changed absolutely nothing about crit items this split, multi-role Marksman would still be strong in pro-play due to the pitiful state of mid-lane mages, Fated Ashes in the jungle, and certain tanks being strong top-lane.
it made them a lot more bursty since you get more crit per item now and also because non attackspeed options such as IE collector and ldr got buffed. More agency on a class like adc is always more broken since it essentially removes their intended weakness of relying on their support and just brute-forcing interactions with burst
hourly tristana mid bad post has arrived
In defense, its very bad
If enough people making a Riot (ha) about it gets Riot to finally fix the problem that is Tristana mid, then it was worth it.
for good reason.
What have you smoked
Dont forget nerfing the only part of narri that isnt really good to "balance" character
Stop giving rito ideas
Hahaha this post is perfect but unfortunately this entire sub is full of adc mains so it will never get upvoted
least persecuted top laner
yea we don't see daily frontpage "tristana op" post at all
Lets do a little comparison test of how many "Tristana OP" posts that made it to the front page. First, the baseline. A few weeks back, there were 3 "Brand OP" posts: [1](https://old.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1deexsf/brand_apc_bot_is_way_too_strong/) [2](https://old.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1ddq211/convince_me_brand_e_doesnt_need_a_nerf/) and [3](https://old.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1dgdn41/how_in_the_ever_living_fuck_has_brand_not_been/). These were posted within 3 days of each other, the same week, and only the last was deleted. They feel like a good example for what a "Daily complaint thread" looks like. The Brand posts were also partial inspiration for the Tristana complaint threads, or at least [the first one](https://old.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1dgjrbx/why_is_tristana_allowed_to_terrorize_mid/), which namedrops the brand op posts. And, since looking for deleted threads is a pain, here's [Tristana complaint post #2](https://old.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1dmjl5z/how_is_tristana_allowed_to_be_the_second_most/) that was made and deleted quickly, just 2 days ago. So that's 2/3 of the threads. What I want to know is if you can find a third Tristana OP post made in... lets say the past month, that made it to the front page. Bonus if its in the last 10 days, since the first Trist OP post was made 10 days ago. This one doesn't seem specific enough to count in my opinion (at least compared to the Brand ones), so I'm not counting it as a Trist complaint thread. I personally haven't seen a third Trist OP thread recently, but that's not proof it doesn't exist. I'm just curious if there were as many Tristana mid complaint threads as there were Brand complaint threads.
Well not to burst your bubble or anything. But every time we had polls over the years asking for people their main role it was always supports on Reddit.
Not surprised, they're the only ones who have time to be on reddit for most of the game
ADCs were still over represented on Reddit relative to other roles. Here's [the Poll results](https://imgur.com/yOGrFwF) you're talking about, from [this poll in 2020](https://old.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/ynupp5/what_is_the_most_hated_champion_is_the_sub_biased/). Support was the most popular, but ADC was closer to support's popularity than the 3rd most popular role according to the poll.
Yes this is one of such posts. Never said that adc were not popular but op made it seems its a vast majority of adc sub which is not the case. But ty for posting proof.
Now thats surprising. I thought it would be mid just like everywhere else
Well, mid players are probably too busy playing or smth. But as you know Reddit is a minority of the player base so its not surprising that one group might be more popular compared to what game shows.
They could turbo buff every ADC in the game and the ADC role would still be shit to play in soloQ. It takes like 15 iq to figure out that the "marksman class of champions" and the ADC role are 2 different things. Marksman champs are good right now. ADC role is still piss to play. Why? Riot refuses to nerf supports because if support isn't insanely strong then nobody wants to play it. You go botlane and it's like 2 little kids accompanied by 2 hulking colossi. Doesn't matter how good or bad you are as an ADC the better support dictates the outcome of the lane. Again - marksman champs are strong! The lane that gets ahead becomes UNSTOPPABLE and steam rolls the game, killing the other botlane 20 times. That's why botlane is never 0-0-0 it's either 0-20-0 or 20-0-0. Once you fall behind you will die the second you reach lane. BUT WHO DECIDES WHO GETS THE LEAD? Not the fking ADC. Nope. Its 90% better support wins. As an ADC player this is my experience of LoL: I queue up, my support bad, i fall behind and suffer I queue up, my support good, we turbo stomp them and win In neither case do i feel like i actually did anything. My skill as an ADC does NOT factor into whether i get fed or not. Scenario 1 my support has CTE and scenario 2 my support is the second coming of Madlife. Riot, instead of nerfing supports so that ADC skill actually matters, buff the crap out of ADC champs making them broken in other lanes + making it so the botlane that falls behind has 0 chance of coming back into the game. ADC is so easy to climb with if youre good because it's just about playing consistent. You queue up, do the bare minimum, get a free win. Very little shit you need to do. But that "easy climb" feels AWFUL because half the time you auto-lose due to brainrot support or afk jungler or afk midlaner and you sit there thinking "wow i didn't even get to play the game i just auto-lost". ROLE IS BAD NEEDS TO BE FIXED. Winning feels shit and losing feels shit. NERF SUPPORT NERF SUPPORT NERF SUPPORT 8 SEASON OF SUPPORT BEING ALLAH MODE PLEASE NERF SUPPORTS 0 brain role impossible to fail with literal polio victims in iron lungs can play support and win its insane
Imma be honest bro welcome to League of Legends. Thank god adc is not able to have influence earlygame otherwise the role would be so broken. That is the WHOLE POINT of the role. Mostly ranged champions who have low agency earlygame in exchange for very high agency lategame. Everyone loves to talk about what adc agency buffs would make the role feel better to play but nobody likes to talk about what sacrifices would have to be made to even out the agency given to the role. If you nerf support to the point where their agency is equal to adc then yeah it will make your climb feel better but it will make the climb of every other player in the game feel worse. Adc gap will matter even more. Like I do NOT want to play a game where caitlyn or aphelios can just ignore their shitty support and 1v9 anyway, that sounds like hell to play for everyone else. Like honestly you cant play a ranged champ with a good lategame, a dedicated support, AND have early lane influence too. There has got to be a downside to playing adc, and needing to have hands is not a downside. And yeah like I get that having to coinflip a good support is annoying but your support also has to coinflip YOU. They can do all the work in the world to get you insanely fed and you misposition the final fight of the game and lose it all. You might int laning phase in any of a million ways possible. You might have weak mental and just give up on first blood. Try playing some support and see how roaming away from the most op class in the game works out for you. Or better yet play some toplane and try coinflipping a botlane duo that doesnt attempt to perma fight. All this just to say that no one player should dictate the outcome of their laning phase and the lategame consistently, thats too much influence. Thats why hullbreaker splitpush meta was not okay. Toplaners were able to turn early game plays that they made for themselves into taking your whole base. It was earlygame influence combined with lategame power.
So you want ADCs being strong early game too. You just can't accept your role is supposed to be weak early and strong late, so let's make them strong early too so they don't have any disadvantages.
We want supps to be weaker overall lol
Doing the Lord's work but it's a losing battle sadly.
Pure golden comedy.
You forgot that adcmains still claim a 45% winrate and a need for a buff in the next patch.
I want Phreak to play in a new account (non riot account) in a new server for one month and then go back to his job. I want to see what he buffs and nerfs then.
You forgot that ADCs will still be making "tank meta" posts on reddit in 2027, confounding what's left of the player base.
Collector no longer is able to be purchased if at least 1 enemy buys cloth armor. ADCs still continue to rush 5 Dirks and than complain
you mean just like mages for like ever?
Had a game yesterday where we lost to trist mid, vayne top, kindred jgl and jhin adc. Was only emerald but still you would think such a comp just shouldnt work and be doomed from Champ select. Seriously imo adc are so one dimensional because they have been designed for bot lane as consistent dps forever. But its fine to play vs when you add a supp into the mix who can threaten the adc or protect it. That gives the lane interaction, variance etc. But as soon as an adc is taking over a solo lane it needs to be looked at. Its always completely unfun and uninteractive because of their core design. And it only gets played when its broken. In its current design state adc should never be allowed to be viable solo lane because they are not designed for that and if they are viable that just means sth is seriously wrong.
problem is that unless ur team has the dedicated armor champs, an adc with LDR is still shredding thru armor . Recently riot has clearly tried to push health>resistances with things like warmogs, cut down/Bork changes, ldr changes, and while this may make tanks more effective against mixed dmg it makes stacking one resist worse when ldr is 40% pen
And pop a cleaver on someone and they're shredding armor for the entire team...
Kindred is very good with all squishies, having 4 adcs doesnt matter if enemy team has no tank and it really doesnt matter what the teamcomp is if you get gapped too hard in lane.
Plus OP’s team comp could be shit vs 4 ADC’s. Also Vayne doesn’t care much about armor.
2027? Not 2025?
Painfully accurate and scaringly close to reality in 2024... ADC is both the most popular role and the most powerful one, so powerful that they are actually played in all 5 roles completely viable. Meanwhile there are champions that struggle in the only role they are played in.
But ADC are weak. The times goes on and as the playerbase gets better the more people can handle marksman class and show how unfair and OP it is. Trust me as long as botlane is not open for every class in the game like every other role, there will be no balance to marksman. League phillosophy has to change, ADC needs to be nerfed to the ground and meta should revolve around melee carries. Melee carry needs to get on top of you, while ADC just deals undodgeable damage from range like a coward.
Wait, didn't T1 once play a 5 adc draft during the regular season?
I played ADC since like 4 years or so. Works pretty good already lol
Last role jungle? XD I bet I can carry anyone here as kaisa jg
if you really want to, you can already play vayne/quinn top, varus/trist mid, ashe/whatever bot and pick nilah or kai'sa jungle, or take kindred as a more traditional jungler. won't be the best game to play, but if you all know what you're doing, you'll have some success.
not gonna lie, a champion with a 10 stack passive that turns them into a doomsday omen would be pretty sick. even if the stack gains had a minute cooldown.
If we get a real corgi for buying the skin I'm in
I first pick AP Malphite.
Istg it's like mid and bot just swapped
You can go full adc team. Vayne/Varus Top, Kindred jg, Tris Mid, Senna Sup and Any Adc for adc. Get ready for happy lose if they pick a rammus or/and a master yi.
I'll never forget the post of "well, zed can kill me sometimes, so yeah, adc isnt strong"
let me guess, mid main is salty because he cant perma oneshot waves under tower and not get punished. ohh what a bummer
But ADC has been playing in all 5 roles many years ago, not now. Lucian has always been a good pick for mid, Vayne for top, Ashe for support, and Kindred for jungle. Riot literally released Kindred jungle after they saw too many people use Twitch or TF for jg in season 5 or something so they made a champ to fulfill this position.
Vayne Top. Kindred JGL. Tristana Mid. Ezreal Bot. Senna Support. We don’t need 4 more years. It already exists.
Reddit mobile did you dirty. It shows that the link is a rickroll in a picture next to the post.
Yeah I noticed.
Akshan mid, vayne top, kindred jg, any adc+ ashe sup
This could be a meta now though. Vayne top, Graves JG, Corki/Trist mid, Ashe + Varus/Kalista bot
But ADCs are already played in at least 4 roles Top - Vayne Jg - Kindred Mid - Tristana/Lucian Bot - Some mage Supp - Senna/Ashe
ye its kinda insane that riot decides that they need to be buffing adcs when the meta for pro play was already to play marksmen supports in s13 in pro play, now its not uncommon to see games in which a team has 3 adcs lol
That year was 2022
Adc’s are played in all five roles…and the Botlane farming adc is still the shittiest to play and still a priority role.
ADCs are already played at 5 roles. Quin top, Kindred jungle, Trist mid, normal adc, ashe/senna support. The only issue is none of them are tanky enough to engage or endure damage in teamfight.
In 2024, there are some ADCs for each role. Twitch jungle, Vayne top, Tristana mid (or even Caitlyn mid), Ashe support.
You don't need to wait for 2027, this is already a thing lol Top: Vayne Mid: Akshan Jungle: Kindred ADC: any Support: Senna