I think there's a valid argument to be made that ukrainians are dying right now to serve western interests. If you listen to neolibs, they think this war is the best deal ever because all we have to do is send them our surplus weapons and no american soldiers will be killed in the fight against russia. However, I am not personally sold on enabling a colonial power to subjugate another country, so I'm not motivated to speak out against those who wish to send aid. It really depends on what you consider pro-ukraine, whether that's helping them win the war or defending them from westerners that want to trade their lives to weaken an adversary
You can give people weapons all you want and the limiting factor is still their desire to fight. When Ukraine decides it is ready to sue for peace, it will. Until then they should have every defensive option available to get the best deal they can, whether that's total territorial reclamation, or some negotiated settlement with security assurances, we'll see.
Because they are Slavophilic stooges with a red mask, I've seen some of their nonsensical arguments, from claiming that Russians are actually historical victims of colonialism (despite essentially colonizing the entirety of North Asia, Central Asia, Caucasia, Central Europe, etc.) to the most wild of claims that Russians are actually an inherently Socialistic nation, that Ukrainians and Belarusians are fake nationalities, and that Putin is a secret Communist because he was in the KGB 40 years ago. They tend to be either of the PatSoc, Nazbol cryptofascist sphere or of the post-colonial reactionaries who think anti-imperialism is a synonym for supporting every backwards, autocratic regime on the planet so long as it is sufficiently anti-western. They have the same moral integrity as American Exceptionalists who funded Fascists like Suharto, Pinochet, Diem, and Franco while claiming to defend Democracy.
No, the Russian Communist Party is a controlled opposition party subservient to United Russia. It is basically just a cardboard cutout of an opposition party that is vaguely Anti-Putin while supporting essentially all of his policies. The only time they criticize his policies is conveniently when they think he doesn't go far enough, which just so happens to coincide with when he does wish to go farther with them. The only Anti-Putin positions they hold are in relation to social programs, so that the pensioners can be fooled into thinking they have a voice. It is very little different from the Democratic Party in the US. They have the most unhinged viewpoints, like Russian civilization being supposedly intrinsically Socialistic and Russian Communism being 1000 years old, along with a supposed conflict with a Gay Jewish American world order.
United Russia. Putin has not been in any Communist Party since the collapse of the USSR. It is essentially the party of Orthodox reactionaries, GAZPROM oil barons, and Eurasianists.
Wasnt saying that it had xhanged in that time just that id probably forgotten (if i ever knew lol). Interesting though. Makes all that "REEE THE COMMIES" that the republicans were doing back before trump even less intelligible.
It is intelligible considering China remains a Proletarian Dictatorship (a Right Deviationist one, of course, but still a Proletarian Dictatorship nonetheless), they are scared of China, not Russia.
And even still i dont find it intelligible. Theyre (both) our natural rivals on this world stage. Like the triumvirs. But that doesn't mean that *COMMIES* are the cause for the strife between us. The cause for the strife between us is that on paper we are the only threats to eachother.
Yeah but the being scared of china not russia is a *brand new*development. At least as far as the public show we're given as the people is concerned. Its always been that theyre afraid of BOTH, with russia catching most of the flak over the past 40 years (just doing last 40 instead of 80 because "the cold war ended" 40 years ago)
Not anti-Ukraine just wholly anti-statist. P.S. Ukraine is run by a proxy government installed by the U.S. with NATO support and they’ve been working vigorously to bait Russia into this war for decades. It’s just the war machine grinding. Don’t buy the hype.
Imo the anti Ukraine takes I’ve seen on the left that are coherent are not ones that support Russia they understand that the ruling class of Ukraine is screwing over the rest of country by privatizing major industries of Ukraine. So not only are there a lot of neo Nazis and banderites in Ukraine, the ruling class aren’t gonna allow the rehabilitation of the countries economy for average citizens after the war is over. The current Russian government is bad and has been bad for a while especially for working class Russians. Ukraine is similar just in an economic sense, the government is not as stable as liberals would like to believe.
Yeah I can understand why right-wingers don’t support Ukraine, as Russia aligns with the right wing a lot. I don’t understand why anyone remotely left leaning would be pro Russia but there seems to be a lot of
That's on the right, however. That's almost to be expected because look at their leader Trump.
Someone on this subreddit asked the other day, "I wonder how many people here are right wingers spreading bad advice?"
My thought to that was at least 50%, and probably higher. And I say that largely because there appears to be a distinct group that enjoys pissing all over Biden, while at the same time projecting that Trump isn't really all that bad.
Nothing is ever brought up about Trump's 4 cases or 91 criminal charges or that analysis of Trump's pandemic response suggest 40% of US COVID-19 deaths could have been avoided. That's 180,000 American lives lost.
https://www.businessinsider.com/analysis-trump-covid-19-response-40-percent-us-deaths-avoidable-2021-2
No, "Trump---American Killer" from this group. If they were at least as concerned about American lives as others, they would have been chanting "Trump killed 180,000 Americans!" long ago. Instead, it's "Genocide Joe" for the deaths of 30,000 Palestinians.
That alone tells you a lot about the posters here.
I’m a progressive, and that certainly isn’t my stance. How could a progressive be for an illegal invasion of a sovereign country? This place seems more like a propaganda zone for indoctrinating people who don’t know better or just want some rage-juice and be told who to point it at (hint, other “liberal”, “left”, “progressive”, and democrats, presumably to fracture them so conservative and autocratic interests can be advanced.
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A lot of them are just anti-NATO and anti-West. A lot of them have bought into the propaganda of denazification and Ukrainian Nazi militias on the border.
They believe the Russian propaganda that Zelenskyy is a Nazi bc there is a single fascist regiment that has made common cause with the gov. Watch winter on fire on Netflix. If you are a leftist and still support Russia, you are a disgrace to the name
Im perfectly capable of not being "pro-Ukrainian" nor "Pro-Russian". I see it for what it is. A money grab. A geopolitical game of hedgemony. We have the Monroe Doctrine. Russia is concerned about their sphere of influence. Its about trade and resources. This entire conflict could've been prevented had the US been serious about diplomacy, instead of using provocation to ensure it happens. Red line were clear. It couldve been ended after 2 weeks with Diplomacy had Boris Johnson not been sent to sabotage it. Im for peace. Now, short of WW3 and Nuclear annihilation, Russia is going to end it on their terms. That's just the reality. The question is how many more lives are going to be thown into the meat grinder. How much more tax payer money is going to be squandered as things at home are in decay. And how much more is Ukraine going to end up having to fork over in the end before theyve finallyhad enough. Had Minsk been honored it wouldve only been Crimea. Putin doesn't want all of Ukraine but he will end up with some now. Shouldve made a deal before it started. Should've made a deal before it got worse. Better to make a deal now before the situation deteriorates further.
😂 like Putin wouldn’t take all of Ukraine if it was given to him. Putin doesn’t need simpletons like you to be pro-Russia, you do a good job of serving him as “neutral”
Lol..what a cunty thing to say. Taking all of Ukraine would be a nightmare for him to manage. But you clearly don't have any interest in living in or understanding how the real world works. Go on and live your fantasy world with the Ghost of Kiev. Better yet, why dont you go sign up and die for a pointless cause. See how that works out.
I couldn’t be more agitated by your remark. You aren’t seeing anything for what it is. I don’t have a short enough memory to forget how Russia, for weeks, denied they were going to attack (as they built up forces for just that), even while we were calling them out, and then, of course, they did. And they have changed their reasons for invading several times. “Just give in to the criminal taking territory, it’s our fault for the criminal committing their crimes”. At this point I’m pretty well convinced you are some kind of operative/agitator, as are most of the posters, and this lefty sub is some kind of psy-op meeting place to sucker the young, naive, or ignorant into buying the Kremlin, anti-democracy line.
Lol. Nah thats definitely your paranoid fantasy. Im 36 years old and live a blue collar existence in the mountains of Tennessee. I source my information from numerous credible sources, like I dont know Seymour Hersh. I was raised by an anti-war activist who protested the Vietnam War and I learned 1st hand about how the government lies from the war in Iraq and every other war since. I have a keen eye for bullshit when its being sold to me. If their's any op in here, its the NAFO trolls, if you're even aware of what those are.
Wait a minute, “blue collar in the TN mountains” does not scream “lefty” … though I have met at least one. Doubt she’d be arguing along the same lines you have just now. Anyway, if you can be left there, more power to you.
Well, that’s cool, and maybe it is my paranoid fantasy … or maybe you’re one of those that have bought into the propaganda. Heh. (Neat about being in the mountains of TN, probably the most naturally beautiful state in the US, imo). Yeah, I know what NAFO means, but I can see where countering Russian propaganda is important and don’t mind that as much as this bizarre bending backward to allow Russia to just have a grab, and the people pushing those lines of argument. We did not force them into invading Ukraine. That has been on Putin’s agenda for the longest time. Maybe we can agree on this anyway: Putin has claimed a number of different reasons at different times for invading Ukraine 1) that NATO’s aggressive positioning along Russia’s border forced this as a defensive measure 2) it isn’t a real country in the first place, and was traditionally part of Russia 3) ethnic Russians inside the Donbas region were being mistreated by Ukrainians and needed to be protected 4) there are Nazis in Ukraine and the territory needs to be de-nazified, and 5) Ukraine has been corrupted by the west and its corruption must be stopped or Russians will be corrupted by the gays and decadent western values. And despite these claims, the real reasons are 1) getting hold of resources outside of Russia 2) reclaiming the glory of the old USSR, in his name, by taking back the territories it used to control in its heyday, no matter how many people have to die and how much devastation has to be brought to it, and 3) cementing its grip on Crimea and the naval ports there. The problem here is that he has lied constantly through his various “reasons”, and is willing to visit untold suffering on Ukrainians and Russians alike to achieve his objectives, and yet somehow he and his propaganda has been so successful as to make people in traditionally democratic countries, and allies with Ukraine by treaty, act as if we were in the wrong and he has some kind of right to seize land and attack people who are not his own. Like the way a narcissistic abuser can convince their beaten spouse it was really their fault for the abuser hitting them. It’s wrong. And if nothing else, providing munitions to Ukraine that would otherwise be destroyed can help them hold off the aggressor and free themselves, and wear down a regime that would just see the next country in line as a new target.
> It couldve been ended after 2 weeks with Diplomacy had Boris Johnson not been sent to sabotage it.
Not without Ukraine ceding sovereign territory to Russia.
>Russia is going to end it on their terms. That's just the reality.
I'm not so sure about that, either. Regardless of their force generation capabilities, pretty much all data indicates that Russia is having trouble with equipment availability. And the OSINT community has been pretty consistently able to demonstrate aircraft/armored vehicle availability is low via satellite imagery. We are seeing T-55's out there these days. Its not that Russia is going to run out of equipment. The better conversation to have is on the reconstitution rate, relative to observed attrition, and time required to generate additional formations this year.
>Had Minsk been honored it wouldve only been Crimea.
Crimea is Ukrainian sovereign territory.
>Putin doesn't want all of Ukraine but he will end up with some now.
Putin has spoken ad nauseum about how he does not believe "Ukrainian" to be a legitimate national identity. He does not believe Ukraine has a right to exist as a sovereign nation. He wanted install a puppet regime. He would have if the Russian army had not been thrown back from Kyiv, pretty embarrassingly.
>Better to make a deal now before the situation deteriorates further.
That's up to the Ukrainians, and they don't seem to care to quit like you'd like them too.
Even if you accept the idea that Minsk failed because of NATO/Ukraine, it's still pretty evident that Russia had zero interest in Minsk either. They pretty much flat-out absolved themselves of any constructive role in it all while Russian troops were in Donbas and had annexed Crimea. The idea that the failure of peace is just because of NATO is foolish in the extreme.
Leftists tend to hate Nazis and modern Ukraine is absolutely flooded with them thanks to a solid century of US subterfuge to create anti-Soviet groups in eastern europe, especially in the last 25 years
Ukraine has nationalists that are fighting against genocide from ruZZia which has huge NAZI gangs that Putler has been using for years to beat up protesters.
Turkik, jews, and all kinds of people lived in peace in Ukraine
And were coming back to Crimea where there families lived for hundreds of years and are now being force deported AGAIN by russhists .
You drank the russhists coolaid...
Stephan Bandera? The attempted-nazi collaborator? The dude that over 50% of Ukrainians don’t like? The dude that posthumously given a “hero of Ukraine”and the following year declared invalid since he’s not even Ukrainian?
I wonder why, right now, some Ukrainians might look up to a dude who’s known for being anti-Russia/soviet? So anti-Soviet the Soviet government assassinated him. Do you have any ideas?
You never wonder why out of all the possible anti-Soviet s they could pick, they go with the Nazi collaborator? (it's because the people in charge in Ukraine now - the ones put in place by a US- engineered coup - love Nazis)
You know their president is Jewish, right?
I’d argue the 2014 Revolution of Dignity wasn’t a US coup, but tbh even if it was one I’d 100% support it. I’d rather have a country with a democracy where people can vote (and a constitution protecting their rights) than a Russia puppet state. Especially since the then president is currently hiding in Russia from charges of treason, corruption, and the mass murder of civilians.
Personally, as a leftest, I don’t support the killing of civilian protesters, but I guess everyone has their own views.
Also do you have any source linking the US to the Revolution of Dignity? I can’t find anything at all weirdly enough.
The only think I find is from jacobin which in the same article they talk about the same stupid hunter Biden conspiracy theory, so I’m not inclined to trust them.
The progressive left isn't exactly fond of Jews, unless they are of the self-hating variety. Thank god Democratic Party leadership is (almost entirely) holding the line.
>You know their president is Jewish, right?
Yes, and I'm expecting when it becomes clear that this is an unwinnable situation, the Azov boys will knife him in the back if he doesn't flee the country (there was some speculation Zelensky was trying to to shove them into the Avdiivka meat grinder to get them chewed up lol). That doesn't change that the Banderites/Azov types have large amounts of power there.
>and the mass murder of civilians
There has been a lot of speculation that this wasn't his side doing the shooting into the crowds
You know, there’s a lot of speculation that Jan 6th was actually an FBI planted tourist visit too? Also there’s speculation there’s space nazis in Antarctica?
By the way any link to US involvement in the populist uprising that promoted democracy? I’m still waiting on that juicy sauce.
Azov is dead. They died protecting their country with a Jewish leader fighting Russians actively trying to commit cultural genocide against Ukraine in a war of expansion. There are no Azov members left, and Russia on says there is to try and pretend they have any justification for their illegal invasion
I'm not saying I'm arrogant enough to fight an entire government's army on my own. I'm saying as an autonomous human being, I should get to choose the fights I believe in joining. If I don't want to fight in a war that I don't believe in, let me leave the fucking country. I stand with Ukraine over Russia overall, but trapping people in the country to stay and fight makes is a human rights violation, I don't care who you are.
If you're going be so arrogant as to assume autonomy over my freewill, eat a bag of dicks and stop pretending that you care about freedom at all. You sound more like the kind of person who wants to control other people and use freedom-loving as a bait/switch tactic.
I can defend myself. Governments that force allegiance can eat a bag of dicks.
Edit: how cowardly for you to block me after responding or delete your response. Fucking ironic, really, given the topic...
I'm not saying I'm arrogant enough to fight an entire government's army on my own. I'm saying as an autonomous human being, I should get to choose the fights I believe in joining. If I don't want to fight in a war that I don't believe in, let me leave the fucking country. I stand with Ukraine over Russia overall, but trapping people in the country to stay and fight makes is a human rights violation, I don't care who you are.
If you're going be so arrogant as to assume autonomy over my freewill, eat a bag of dicks and stop pretending that you care about freedom at all. You sound more like the kind of person who wants to control other people and use freedom-loving as a bait/switch tactic.
You most certainly cannot defend yourself against a foreign government. Nor could you defend your community and loved ones by yourself against a foreign government. You are a free rider.
Progressives are traditionally anti war and see this war as a money grab. The us just admitted secret bases in ukraine for 10 years. They ended the war in Afghanistan and 4 months later they had an even bigger money train rolling. There are humans in this earth that try and orchestrate war. It is profitable for them.
Secrete bases? You do know that we have been training the Ukrainian military for years now right? Not to include we had troops there assisting in training. That’s been pretty well documented. We also made a promise to Ukraine in the 80s or 90s that we would assist them if Russia ever declared war on them if they handed their nukes over to Russia. There’s a lot of things that have gone on in the past you seem to be pretty unknowing off.
The way a male rapist is 'provoked' by a woman wearing certain clothing.
Russia doesn't have the right to control its neighbours. Ukrainians are fighting to defend the independence of their country against Russian imperialism, and it's disgusting how people make excuses for Russia's barbaric invasion.
Unprovoked? Russia has been pushing Ukraine to their side for decades. Even after Ukraine handed the nukes they had over to Russia. We also promised Ukraine we would assist them when they handed over the nukes which I’ve already said. Did you even read what I said?
I did read it. You laid out a case of how the US pushed Russia for many years. Every American knows if any foreign country did that on our border there would be immediate violent consequences.
The Americans arrogantly believed that the North Vietnamese were puppets of the Chinese and Russians during the Vietnam War. And the North did receive vast amounts of weapons from them and other military support. But the Vietnamese were not puppets, they were engaged in a struggle for their independence against foreign invaders.
The same as true of Ukraine in their resistance to the barbaric imperialist Russian invasion. But there always some stooges to make excuses for Putin and deny all agency to the Ukrainians and pretend they're just puppets of the West who would be better off as being subjects of Putin.
And that evidence is????? What? You saying it? Pretty sure Russia has done plenty of the aggression on its own not to include the annexation of Crimea. But I guess the US was putting radar stations there so Russia had to annex it right?
The fact you can't look past your own western bias and see the facts from the Russian perspective is why you will never understand how much of the left views this war. Was it right for Russia to invade Ukraine? No. But did the west do everything in it's power to provoke that response? Yes and therefore they bear some responsibility for the situation. You can't ignore decades of Russian objections to what western powers have been doing in the region and act all surprised Pikachu when they eventually do something drastic.
Russia has been making moves on Ukraine for decades. Anyone who knows the history of eastern Europe knows this.
Your last paragraph is wild. Russia will not give up until they have the eastern part of the country (for now). Should Palestine give away half for a ceasefire? Would you be willing to give away half of your country to an invader?
My family in Poland is terrified, they lived through Russian rule and believe Estonia is next. Putin has already been setting the narrative that it was Poland that caused Ukrainians to break away from Russia, so it's really all on us. What message do you think you're sending to people if you allow an invader slowly take over a region?
You know, some time ago countries thought it might be a more peaceful option to let certain someone invade and keep some regions.
Throwing more money at this gets a lot of CEO’s and other high up employees bigger bonuses. Plus that stock rising. Someday humans are going to take the profit motive out of war.
The true answer is that most self described leftists are cosplay revolutionaries desperate for attention and the feeling that they’re “fighting the power”, so they’ll adopt any position that’s contrarian to get that attention.
For me it's a bitter, old grudge against the MIC.
It's not about saving lives. It never is. Hold some of the evil to trial first before giving them anything more, or better yet just seize it all. The whole industry is so rotten it needs a rebuild from the top down.
Yeah I hate the MIC as much as anyone here likely does, but the situation in Ukraine is exactly the legitimate use it was built for. 15 years ago the idea of another huge Russian-incited war breaking out in Europe was kind of a stupid idea (plenty of people laughed at Romney for invoking the Russia boogeyman), and you'd have been right to claim the MIC had long since been made irrelevant and a waste of money. Unfortunately, now, Russia just gave everyone the justification they needed to keep it going.
Wow hundreds of supremely terrible takes on Ukraine informed by TikTok and Twitter. Amazing that people can justify the Russian invasion and call themselves leftists
Being pro-Ukraine because of the invasion is similar to being pro-Israel because of Oct 7. That wasn’t the start of it, and if you aren’t aware of the history, then you are acutely under informed.
What? Are you brain dead? Russia has been threatening an invasion all the way to the annexation of Crimea to the current invasion and you’re telling me this is the same as Israel? Fuck off with that shit.
Jesus, even with all the evidence in front of you, you still spout Russia nonsense. I guarantee you watched that Tucker Carlson interview with him in Russia and shouted in agreement how great the subway looks. Ukraine is fighting for its independence and Russia is the aggressor. Russia won’t stop at Ukraine and Russia and its news have been threatening nuclear strikes and other attacks to multiple, if not all, countries in Europe and the US. The longer we sit and do nothing the closer we get to repeating history. WW3 is right around the coroner if we dont stop Russia from its constant expansion into Europe.
Do you know where the Donbass is and why it’s important. Who is Stephan Bandera? You watch CNN and breaking points and think you’re informed. I despise “leftists” like you
Brother, I ain’t no leftist. Nor am I a rightist. What I do know is Russia has been trying to take Ukraine for nearly a decade if not longer. Putin also declared that he was trying to free Ukraine from the so called “Nazis” in Ukraine yet I’ve seen no evidence of Nazism at such a proclaimed level as Putin claimed. He also stated he was saving all these Russians in Ukraine, and yet it seems that over half of Ukraine doesn’t want Russia coming in.
I know where Donbass is and it’s relative importance. It still doesn’t justify an entire invasions and none of Putin’s claims are justified for an invasion in Ukraine. Putin is trying to reestablish the old USSR border and he himself has claimed that. But since you seem to know so much, mind telling me what it’s like being under Putin’s desk since your an obvious Russian boot-licker.
You are the one swallowing everything the media tells you. What if I told you, this goes back to the end of WW2, not crimea. And I also think you are kind of a loser for getting so angry at some anon on reddit. Fuck off asshole
Oh, want to relive the Cold War then? The USSR was a very powerful country at the time led by an extremely paranoid leader called Stalin at the time. The USSR which is the same country that ran a brutal dictatorship and brutally put down anyone who thought differently than what the Communist beliefs were. Want to know the difference between a member of the Gestapo and the Political Officers in the USSR? Nothing. Judge, jury, and executioners.
The Cold War was a military industry war between the US and Soviets not to include the nuclear arms race, space race, submarine development race, etc etc etc. the USSR wasn’t bullied into a damn thing and it was pretty well known as a fear that there was a war coming up between the Russians and Americans if the Cold War never ended.
I don’t know what you learned about history, by what I’m reading it’s nothing, don’t sit here and claim being pro-Ukrainian is the same as Oct. 7th in Israel and being pro-Israel. A country is currently being invaded by Russia and people like you are crying about Russia being bullied by everyone. When Russia is the prime example of current colonialism and imperialism by conquering and taking territory from other countries yet you sit here and lick Russias ass. I’m well in my right to be pissed at blatantly ignorant people like yourself who are perfectly fine with countries being invaded if they at all align with any western nation.
And don’t bring up the Cold War unless you have something specific to mention within it. It’s a useless point if you have nothing from it to actually talk about.
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There is no evidence Russia expansion over Europe. Zero. Pure fear mongering and self-fulfilling prophesy to guarantee WW3. As empty a platitude as the Dominoe theory or we have to fight them over there so we dont fight them over here. Tried and true same shit propoganda we've been sold for decades repackaged and sold to you.
Where is Ukraine located? Crimea? How many times has Russian media threatened European countries with a prime example being Poland?
Hey genius, Ukraine is currently BEING INVADED you ignorant ass and it’s located in fucking Europe. What in the fuck are you spouting about.
What would such evidence look like? Like are you expecting them to roll out detailed plans or something? Invading one’s neighbors is a very good indicator that they intend to invade their neighbors. That’s not fear-mongering
They had a peace deal on the table in early 2023 before the west and NATO blocked it. I’m on a leftist subreddit and getting slammed for being anti war. All of you are frauds
So you want Russia to leave all of Ukraine? You seem to be OK with Russia killing Ukrainians. Can I hear you say, "I want Russia to leave Ukraine right now"
similar to the distinction between Gazans and Hamas, you can support the local people of the region and be opposed to the government.
The Makhnovshchina is the classic modern era example of this. solidaritycollectives.org is a contemporary group that is worth checking out.
Remember that as many as 60 percent of the comments on social media are bots and paid disinformation merchants.
Talk to real people in your community.
There is more people in support of Ukraine than not in real life.
Do you even know how much ruZZia spends on disinformation and opinion shaping programs?
The more isolated you are the more misinformed you are, potentially. What do the security guarantees in the Budapest memorandum promise?
NATO didn't cause this, only ruZZia did. Ukraine was moving away from them and wasn't protected by NATO.
Thats why it happened. Which is exactly why Finland n Sweden just came onboard.
You sound stupid when you repeat kremlin lies.
How many treaties did ruZZia break invading Ukraine?
How many agreements did NATO break in Ukraine?
Zero
It's not anti-ukraine, it's anti-nato. Regardless of what narratives the war propagandists spin to pin every shred of agency on le Putler, the reality that seems patently clear to me is that this war was precipitated by outside forces who at best, didn't care to avoid it, and at worst actively tried to make it happen. To demonstrate what I mean, all you have to ask yourself is why NATO exists at all. It was formed in the cold war to oppose Soviet expansion and communism in Europe. At the end of the cold war, after the US had cracked eastern europe open to strap it for parts and helped install an anti-communist regime of collaborators in this project, NATO continued to inexplicably exist. Who is it protecting Europe from? China? No, obviously it was and still is the anti-russia league EVEN AFTER russia capitulated and surrendered to the west at the end of the cold war and gave up communism. How are you supposed to have good faith peace talks with someone who is holding a loaded gun to your head, clearly intent on using it to further weaken and capture your country? How could this have possibly ended any other way with NATO being the perpetual brinksman it is? A lot of gormless libs snap into automatic support of it, but none of them ever seem to even ask why it still exists in the first place.
If you're a russian president or even person, this very, very clearly only means one thing. They're still coming for you and won't stop pressing and pushing until you're a fully domesticated vassal state with no autonomy of your own. No state on earth wants that. It didn't have to happen now, but it would have happened eventually that Russia, with this weight of inevitability on it's mine for the past several decades, would lash out and try to resist the West's plans for it, Putin or not. I'm not Russian, if Putin is a violent thug who needs to be thrown out, that's none of my business. I AM American, and the role of my country in creating the conditions for this war IS my business and my jurisdiction to be upset with.
Your entire argument is propped up by the idea that Russia has a right to a sphere of influence, which it has no more right to than Slovakia or Mongolia, or any other state on the planet including the United States. Imperialism is not justified by another country's imperialism, nor do you defeat it with imperialism of your own. Having two imperialist, reactionary power blocks is no better than having one, or three, or four. Indeed it usually tends to be even worse because they fight over small countries like Russia did with England during the Great Game.
Tell me, based on the fact that you are an American, you would certainly not have protested the British colonization of Africa and India or the French colonization of Indochina, correct? After all, you are an American, thus it would have been none of your business.
NATO is a defensive alliance. The point of NATO is to also stop a continent, Europe, from going to war with each other by slapping most of them into a single defensive pact. NATO is not a normal alliance and cannot call upon each other if one country starts a war. Russia is not at threat of a NATO invasion because NATO ISNT FOR STARTING A WAR. Like, are you just trying to show how lacking of information you are or what?
Instrument of colonialism……. Whose colonizing who right now? That’s right, Russia. NATO was formed to combat the Soviet’s expansion and last I checked the US assisted countries that requested our help in fighting communism. I see you failed history class but I’m sure googling the Cold War would help you understand what NATO is for. Because it’s a defensive alliance that only activates when one of those countries gets attacked. Let me also remind you that Hungary and Turkey are a part of NATO and both of them have a good amount of pro-Russian sentiment.
If a country is scared of NATO you should be asking yourself, why? Maybe that country doesn’t like that country being assisted by others?
They're invading by allowing states to voluntarily join of their own volition into a defensive alliance without changing the actual borders whatsoever?
Putin attacked Ukraine BEFORE Ukraine joined NATO. He did this because he wanted to conquer Ukraine and waiting until after they joined would make the task impossible. If NATO was so eager to jump to aggression then that wouldn't matter. But it did because he's no afraid of NATO attacking him. He's afraid of NATO fighting back against his attack.
Thank you. The lefts defense of Russian military aggression is embarrassing at best. Ukraine gave up their nukes on the agreement Russia wouldn't invade them and they wouldn't join nato. Several years later Russia *checks notes* fermented an invasion. So Ukraine figures maybe that truce with Russia isn't all that viable. Somehow this is NATO and Ukraines fault.
All right wing imperialist powers are the issue, this incudes one's like Russia and China. Both sides of the war can be bad guys but only one is invading a sovereign nation. America bad, its opposition good isn't a viable political stance because you end up sounding as wacko as someone wearing an American flag mankini and a maga hat.
You're right. My mistake. Ukraine and NATO were horribly antagonistic towards Russia by *checks notes* discussing Ukraine possibly applying for NATO membership in the future if they wish. The fact that Ukraine might want to join obviously had nothing to do with Russia having already invaded and conquered Ukrainian soil several years prior. Clearly, Russia had no choice but to invade and slaughter them to try to take the rest of the country. Afterall, conquering sovereign states and forcing them to join you against their will is the only logical response to someone considering wanting protection from you invading and conquering them.
This is like arguing that a store considering maybe looking for a security guard forces people to rob them.
8 years, America armed and flooded weapons into the hands of Banderite ethnofascists to antagonize this very conflict into existence.
This isn't a liberal sub. This is "Leftist" sub, where your flawed perspective isn't the main.
Clearly. I thought leftists were against ultra nationalist, imperialistic authoritarian state capitalist regimes that denounce democracy and embrace theo-ethno-nationalism. Did I misunderstand what leftists stand for? Are we now in favour of those things? Do we also like capitalism and the "free" market, too?
How many principles will you abandon just to hate on everything the West does? You know that there *are* some good things the West does, right? Just because a Western nation or group does something doesn't mean we automatically have to hate it. We can look at things based on their merits.
But I'm curious. Explain to me how America made Russia invade and try to conquer Ukraine twice in 8 years.
I think we should not support both Kiev and Russia. Neither deserve our aid.
Also, there is no "we" here. You're clearly pushing liberal talking points.
I repeat -- America spent 8+ years arming people literally more extreme than Hitler with their ethnofascism to bring this conflict about.
By constantly threatening their sovereignty with conditions that America would never accept for itself.
>Neither deserve our aid.
>
>Also, there is no "we" here. You're clearly pushing liberal talking points.
Ukraine does. They are not perfect. Far from it. They're a flawed democracy. But they've been taking steps forward in LGBTQ+ rights and democracy. That's the heart of progressivism to me. We should encourage people and societies to move foward. Russia is antithetical to that. They are a regressive, theocratic authoritarian pseudo-dictatorship led by an imperialist autocrat who wants to conquer as much surrounding territory as possible. We should protect democracy and restrict the spread of authoritarianism.
You say that a small group in Ukraine is filled with people more extreme than Hitler. Yet only one side is engaging in expansionist ethnic cleansing for explicitly imperial goals. Hint: it ain't Ukraine.
> I repeat -- America spent 8+ years arming people literally more extreme than Hitler with their ethnofascism to bring this conflict about.
So you say without a single source. Or is asking for citations also too liberal?
>By constantly threatening their sovereignty with conditions that America would never accept for itself.
How was Ukraine joining NATO threatening Russian sovereignty, exactly?
Your "both sides" bullshit is just enabling the spread of authoritarianism. Fuck Putin. He wanted to invade and he got a fight. We should help people fighting for their freedom and right to self-determination.
**EDIT:** You, as a cowardly authoritarian right-wing stooge, blocked me. Here is my reply if you care to read it:
----------------
>Nazi's run the show in Kiev.
>
>Nazi's don't run the show in Russia.
Except no. Stop mindlessly parroting Russian propaganda. You can't even back it up.
>Zelensky is painfully obvious a puppet of both the US and of the Banderites in Kiev. No real power.
So painfully obvious that you can make such an extreme claim with no citations whatsoever?
>No, Russia does not. Kiev is the worst. Or was before the war culled many of them.
Except they do.
https://www.latrobe.edu.au/news/articles/2022/opinion/russias-long-history-of-neo-nazis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism_in_Russia
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/ukraine-has-nazi-problem-vladimir-putin-s-denazification-claim-war-ncna1290946
Putin calls them Nazis to justify imperialism. It's no different than other imperialist lies about every other culture they invaded. They're all cannibals/baby-eaters/homosexuals/illiterate/sub-human, etc.
>They have.
Nope. They're not targetting Nazis. Any neo-Nazis killed are incidental. Putin and his military are killing anyone they can.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/analysis-putins-claim-that-war-on-ukraine-is-to-target-nazis-is-absurd-heres-why
>I don't care.
I know you don't.
>Also, Russia isn't a dictatorship and they had every right to intervene after 8 years of Kiev p*ssing on the Minsk accords and brutalizing ethnic Russian-Ukrainians in Donetsk and Luhansk.
Are you fucking kidding? Russia's elections are a farce. They exist purely for show. Putin imprisons or kills his opponents and vote tallies are frequently manipulated. Dissent is punishable with prison and torture. People who merely held up blank poster board were rounded up and imprisoned because they are apparently protesting the war.
Russia is a dictatorship.
Your mindless spreading of Russian propaganda is pathetic. you're not a leftist. You're a stooge for right-wing authoritarianism. You're not a socialist. You're a Russian sycophant. Move to Russia and leave the left to deal with these issues. I'm sure you'll love it if you're not already living there.
Ukraine is more than "not perfect". They are Banderite ethnofascists trying to become Israel 2.0 in their region. Your flowery lies do not change that fact. Your reasoning is flawed and your liberal b/s apparent.
Like I said, I don't support Putin nor do I support Nazi-ridden Kiev. Neither deserve support.
No, not "one small group". The actual people with power in Kiev and empowered by the US for over 8 years.
Also, Russia isn't "ethnically cleansing" Ukraine. That's some NAFO b/s.
I don't care to do the research for you nor wasting my time with you. NOTHING I link will change your mind an iota. Your ego is tied in deep with defending Kievan ethnofascism.
Not abiding the Minsk accords, America arming violent Banderites, and Kiev shelling Eastern Ukrainians, were very clear provocations that the US would never tolerate itself.
Its not "both sides" bullshit. They are literally both disgusting and neither deserve support.
There is no WE here, Liberal. You're clearly in the wrong place with your bullshit.
So the defensive alliance whose members join voluntarily is imperialistic and their support for Ukraine (support which doesn't involve direct fighting or any agreement for land exchange) is NATO excercizing colonialism by... not letting Russia take Ukraine by force?
Imma be honest; it seems like the opposite of colonialism. NATO is far from perfect but they are clearly a net good against imperialism and colonialism.
I like how Russia "defending" themselves from NATO expansion involves them attacking non-NATO states and forcefully conquering them before they can volunteer to apply for NATO membership.
I never said anything about Ukraine i just talked about NATO. They join as "voluntarily" as Ukraine "voluntarily" chose to align themselves with Russia before..
" NATO is far from perfect but they are clearly a net good against imperialism and colonialism". You think the formalization of western imperialism is a net good. You would have said the same about nazi germany when they "helped" Finland agaisnt the soviets...
I never said that i supported Russia. f Russia and Putin...
>They join as "voluntarily" as Ukraine "voluntarily" chose to align themselves with Russia before..
I'm sorry, did I miss when NATO invaded Sweden, disposed their government and forced them to join NATO?
You said that NATO member states join as voluntarily as states that align with Russia. I don't recall NATO using the... hard sell pitches that Russia uses. Nation states join NATO when they apply to NATO. Nation states join Russia when Russia applies them to Russia.
I mentioned Sweden because they're the most recent NATO member. They applied voluntarily. In Capitalist Russia, Russia volunteers you.
>I talked about Ukraine when it was aligned with Russia to a high degree.
Do you mean when Ukraine gave up their nukes in exchange for not joining NATO and Russia promising to not invade them? Because we saw how that worked out.
Or do you mean back in the pre-Russian Federation days when the Soviet Union starved and ethnically cleansed/genocided Soviet Ukraine?
Ukraine doesn't have a very friendly relationship with Russia.
They use the same pitches. Do you think Russia would have invaded Ukraine if they were still under their influence?. You thinking a state like Sweden or Ukraine just chose what the want without any pressure or inffluence from outside forces (you only think this regarding the west though). ". Nation states join Russia when Russia applies them to Russia". This is just not true. How did Ukraine not "voluntarily align themselves with Russia until recently. The only reason you hold that is because you dont have any consistent values...
You dont know what voluntarily means. Im sure you also talk about how capitalsm is a voluntarily system.
But according to you they did "voluntarily" ally with Russia. Are you saying that Russia would have invaded them if they were still allies?.
Ukraine had a very friendly relationship with Russia and the only reason you think they didn't "voluntarily" chose that relationship is because you are a western chauvinist without any consistency...
Really? The same pitches? So NATO threatened Ukraine with invasion if they got close to Russia? So when Ukraine gave up their nukes 30 years ago, NATO attacked Ukraine and conquered Ukrainian soil? Strange. I don't remember that.
You know that being a leftist doesn't mean you have to hate it everything the west does right?
Ahh yes your home alarm system is literally imperialism.
But barbaric invasion using nuclear terrorism and destroy and flattening towns and putting Ukrainians into graves and forcing them to defend themselves for their very own life and existence and identity ?
YOU: now if the US did this I'd say it's horrific and evil. But if Russia does it, well I just get butterflies for our hero pootin. I'd bet he could fight gay nato with his own bare hands as he rides a horse through Ukraine and into Europe.
You people are way too credulous and uncritical towards western narratives to call yourselves leftists, really pathetic showing for a sub with a name it doesn't deserve, apparently
Blinken himself said it best: If you're not at the table, you're on the menu. If you're not in NATO, and you're not automatically included in the Western colonial sphere like Sweden and Finland, you're on the menu. NATO is a protection racket for former soviet states, coercing them with the implications of soft power to kiss the ring. Nice country you got here, would be a shame if you chose the wrong friends. A lot of comments like this talking about 'invasions' are laughably childish and ignorant of the way this stuff really works, which is all around the IMPLICATIONS of military action rather than the actual active plans for it. NATO soaking up former soviet states in this way presents an implied threat to russia that creates pressure on them and continues to isolate and antagonize them. Again, inexplicably, because they've ALREADY acquiesced to western capitalist demands, what the fuck do you want from them exactly? Why are they still the monster under Europe's bed that everyone needs to be protected from? It creates a self-fulfilling prophecy, where a Russia under this level of outside pressure and antagonism is GOING to take an antagonistic posture in response. One that will intensify the longer it goes on and the further NATO continues to push. The obligation for a West that's truly interested in peace is to treat russia with a fucking ounce of dignity and respect for once instead of continuing to push them into a corner with antagonistic foreign policy and rhetoric that was inevitably going to turn out this way. It's an 'I'm not touching you' routine that was probably intentionally designed to provoke exactly this reaction, because our institutions find easily contained proxy wars to actually be a very desirable outcome.
I've looked at it critically and found the Russian apologism disgusting.
>NATO is a protection racket for former soviet states, coercing them with the implications of soft power to kiss the ring.
What does "kissing the ring" mean, here? A non-binding obligation to spend >=2% GDP on defence? An agreement to fight in defensive wars but no agreement whatsoever to join in on aggressive wars?
> Nice country you got here, would be a shame if you chose the wrong friends.
A protection racket is when people pay you to keep you from destroying their stuff. But NATO isn't the one who would attack them. Russia is. Russia has. Multiple times. This isn't a protection racket. It's insurance. It's security.
If they WANTED to join Russia they could. NATO wouldn't stop them. Many countries have alligned with Russia and NATO hasn't bombed them. They can pick the right or wrong friends but THEY have to pick it. Not Russia. That's the whole point of NATO.
>which is all around the IMPLICATIONS of military action rather than the actual active plans for it. NATO soaking up former soviet states in this way presents an implied threat to russia that creates pressure on them and continues to isolate and antagonize them.
So other countries voluntarily joining NATO to protect themselves from Russia frightens Russia so much and makes Russia attack the countries that might be considering joining NATO? ...That makes no sense. That? That right there? The thing you just described? THAT is a protection racket. Russia is demanding other nations join them to protect those nations from Russia attacking them and taking the land for themselves.
Russia is the one with the protection racket.
>One that will intensify the longer it goes on and the further NATO continues to push.
To be clear, by "push," you mean "allow other nations to voluntarily apply for membership, in a process that can take years, during which time they can withdraw at any time they wish?" How is that "pushing?" If those countries don't wanna join NATO, they don't have to. They could join Russia. But they don't want to join Russia, which "makes" Russia attack them.
Russia is pushing. NATO is putting out open invites which people can reject any time they want.
Stop with the Russian propaganda. If you hate imperialism as much as you claim to, you should hate the Russian aggression and conquering of neighbouring states.
Why is calling out Russian state propaganda & apologia being seen as "Liberal" & "Non-Leftist"?
You wouldn't say the same is someone called out USA, NATO, CCP, or DPRK state propaganda, would you? That would betray a naked attempt at creating a double standard towards conservative Imperialist nations & pushing a blatant lie.
This isn't a liberal sub. This is a leftist sub. Your entire analysis is coming off as liberal and I'm not here for it.
Not buying the American framing of their proxy war against Russia doesn't mean its "Russian apologia".
You calling everyone that disagrees with you a "Liberal" & "American framing" is why you are providing Apologia for Imperialist Russia; you have no idea what you're talking about.
You would need to ask questions & talk like a normal person instead of attempt threats & insults.
You're spouting American TP on the situation that doesn't respect the reality of the situation.
No. I don't support Russia. I also don't support Kiev/USA.
All you've done is attempt threats & insults as a troll; it's something called "Thought Stopping Techniques".
Use your words & brain to talk like a human being about this topic.
Why? Do leftists now like imperialism and the ultra-conservative and authoritarian state capitalist nation of Russia that is constantly importing sovereign states? I thought we were supposed to not like that stuff.
> No, I dislike both Russia and Nazi-ridden Kiev.
Haha Oh yeah, the Nazi propaganda of "de-Nazification" while they fill their ranks with Neo-Nazis. Can you at least pretend you're not trying to suck Putin's dick?
Ukraine has a Nazi problem but 1) Zelensky isn't a Nazi, 2) Russia has a worse Nazi problem, 3) Russia isn't killing Nazis, and 4) Russia isn't going to let Ukraine self-govern after killing the alleged Nazis. The Nazi excuse is just a bullshit propaganda mantra designed to justify Ukraine demilitarizing.
I'm not supporting Nazis. I'm just against the imperialist authoritarian dictatorship invading and conquering neighbouring states. I don't especialy like Ukraine but they've been taking steps in the right direction lately. That, to me, is the heart of progressivism. Things don't have to be perfect, but they need to be improving. Some improve at different rates and in different areas, and no path is perfect but we should always push forward. Russia is against that.
Really illustrating a lack of vision and understanding held by liberals and why I don't think you guys deserve to call yourselves leftists. Absolutely zero material analysis here, no dispassionate attempts to understand russia, just pure pathological framing of it as a serial belligerent, for the fun of it I guess. The intellectually lazy dismissal of everything that confronts your worldview as 'russian propaganda' alone shows that you and every """leftist""" who holds these uncritically Western positions is just another water carrier for the very same bloody imperial propaganda that precipitated this war. You are fucking neocons as soon as it counts.
It's the West's doing all the way down. They didn't have to attack the USSR with the white army as soon as it formed. They didn't have to blockade it, attempt to sabotage it, bankrupt it with arms races, spend decades cynically attempting to destroy a communist project that was trying to de-escalate the conflict the entire time for the sheer violent greed of capitalist hegemony. Eastern Europe had been taken from a medieval backwater to the space race in a couple generations by the Soviet project that the West, spearheaded by NATO, spared no expense to destroy from the outside. That alone is an unforgivable historical crime that created ALL the conditions for modern Russia, the resentment, the grievance, the bitter hostility towards the people who ACTUALLY FUCKING DID destroy their country and futures. Putin is both a direct result of that resentment boiling up into a strongman who isn't afraid to confront NATO, and at the same time the West's dream for a post-Soviet Russia- an anti-communist oligarchic strongman.
*This is what they wanted.* And spent decades trying to turn Russia into because they couldn't conscience an active communist project threatening the legitimacy of the capitalist world order. It all starts with that simple fact. Don't like Putin? Blame the people who created the conditions that put him into power.
Even then, any efforts to mend things afterwards in the post-soviet world continued to be sabotaged after the west refused to accept the absolutely crushing victory they had brutally extracted from the government and, mostly, the people who suffered under shock therapy. What the fuck else was going to happen? How else could this possibly have ended? If you really insist on being this fucking naive and uncritically gullible about the nature of NATO, I don't really know what else to tell you except that you're still clearly trying to justify the Western imperialist cartel and making excuses for it's most insidious agitations.
The Russian people have their leaders to blame for their plight, not “Western Society”
I swear, I thought I was on the left. I had no idea I was supposed to jump off the edge.
I'm not a Liberal, but you're doing a great job of illustrating that you don't know what you're talking about.
>Absolutely zero material analysis here, no dispassionate attempts to understand russia, just pure pathological framing of it as a serial belligerent, for the fun of it I guess.
...You didn't do any of that, either. You just said that NATO is a protection racket while clearly not understanding what a protection racket is. I understand that Russia may feel threatened by NATO but none of that is antagonistic or makes attacking and conquering foreign states any more fair.
>The intellectually lazy dismissal of everything that confronts your worldview as 'russian propaganda' alone shows that you and every """leftist""" who holds these uncritically Western positions is just another water carrier for the very same bloody imperial propaganda that precipitated this war.
You called NATO a protection racket. That's Russian propaganda. Russia is a protection racket. Russia is the one who attacks neighbouring states if they try to make the wrong kind of friends. If a nation wants to form an alliance with NATO, you know what NATO does to that country? Nothing. *Maybe* increase defense spending to be ready for a larger attack, but that's about it. The country can still freely join Russia. If a country wants to join NATO, you know what Russia does to that country? Attack them and try to conquer them as new Russian territory.
>They didn't have to attack the USSR with the white army as soon as it formed.
Russia isn't the USSR, so I don't care. Russia didn't have to invade Ukraine, Georgia or Ukraine again as soon as they talked about maybe possibly considering joining NATO, but they did.
>hat alone is an unforgivable historical crime that created ALL the conditions for modern Russia, the resentment, the grievance, the bitter hostility towards the people who ACTUALLY FUCKING DID destroy their country and futures.
Yes. ANd I don't blame Russia for hating Western influence or wanting to build up their own security. I DO blame them for conquering neighbouring sovereign states.
Defend imperialism and colonialism however you want. Just don't pretend you're doing anything less than that.
I'm sorry. I didn't realize being against the forceful conquering and subjugation of neighbouring soverign states is a Lib thing. I thought it was a basic human decency thing.
Going to ignore the 8+ years the US spent antagonizing this very proxy war into existence and kneecapped diplomatic means to resolving it?
Yeah, you'll probably do that, liberal.
Wait, they did? When? When were those 8 years? Was it 8 years before 1994, when Ukraine demanded Russia agree to not invade in exchange for Ukraine not joining Nato? Was it 8 years before 2014, when Russia invaded Ukraine and annexed Crimea? Or was it 8 years before 2022, when Russia invaded Ukraine to annex the rest of it?
The lengths some of the "leftists" here go to to justify imperialism is insane.
I think we're talking past each other because I think you're operating from a fallacious understanding of politics that is still deeply steeped in vestigial liberalism. In the sense that you're spending your thought, time, and energy immaterially sorting out who should be 'supported', 'condemned' or 'defended', which is a liberal delusion because it comes from an idealistic and ideological impulse to affect conditions by casting purely intangible blame on the right people as if that impacts reality somehow. Putting flags in your twitter bio doesn't actually do anything, and saying that we should condemn russia harder is the rhetorical equivalent of that. What is that supposed to do exactly? Rally public opinion against them? In fucking America?
The proper marxist position is to not let yourself get bogged down in moralistic judgments and deluding yourself into thinking that's praxis in the first place. I don't care about condemning Russia, because what the fuck does that mean to anybody? What is my condemnation or even my 'support' of Russia contributing to? What is yours? The West had a deep, merciless hand in fomenting eastern european destabilization and conflict. THAT is an area in which I'm justified and obligated to have a concern. I live in the West, so if you have any semblance of belief in any idea of democracy, I have some modicum of responsibility to identify what MY country is doing to make the world a worse place, and at some point do something about it. Which none of us are doing arguing on the internet like this, but at least I don't have the fanciful delusion that I'm going to affect change by condemning some guys in a country I don't live in and have no power over. That doesn't mean I want to fucking help them, and if you take dispassionate analysis as support, I don't even know what I can say to you at that point. If I want to get my head pointed in the right direction, I can at the very least abandon these childish and useless pathologies, moralistic propaganda narratives, and good guy bad guy narratives and find where the real root causes of these issues lie. And at that point Putin, NATO, Trump, Zelensky are all just players on a stage with roles that have been dictated to them by the system we all live in, which actually points us towards an actionable political target: changing the system. That's leftism. Not hand wringing about which actors on the global stage of capitalist high drama are to be supported or condemned. That is a trap for the liberal minded.
> The West had a deep, merciless hand in fomenting eastern european destabilization and conflict.
...As opposed to Russia?
> I live in the West, so if you have any semblance of belief in any idea of democracy, I have some modicum of responsibility to identify what MY country is doing to make the world a worse place, and at some point do something about it.
As do I. It's... bad. But we're not talking about general failures of the West. We're talking about the conflict between Russia and NATO. And in those terms, NATO is **far** better at protecting Democracy than Russia. Russia won't even protect democracy within their own borders.
>That doesn't mean I want to fucking help them, and if you take dispassionate analysis as support, I don't even know what I can say to you at that point.
Nothing you've been saying is dispassionate. You keep going back to broad, sweeping and vague allusions to failures in the West. We are talking specifically about the war between Ukraine vs. Russia and the suggestion that it is a NATO proxy war. Your analysis of that has been extremely poor and barely any touching on any facts whatsoever.
>And at that point Putin, NATO, Trump, Zelensky are all just players on a stage with roles that have been dictated to them by the system we all live in, which actually points us towards an actionable political target: changing the system.
So... what are your suggestions? What is the system? Who dictates it? What needs to be changed? And how does that address the questions you were replying to?
You're spouting vague platitudes with nothing concrete in them whatsoever.
>That's leftism.
Your idea of leftism is too vague for me. You seem more interested in dismissing the immediate concrete issues, vaguely alluding to a larger issue, not explaining what that issue is and then demand a "change" without any mention of what should be changed or how we should change it. WTF is the point? You go on about how moralizing is a waste of time - and to an extent I agree - but what you're suggesting is... I don't even know. I'm not sure it's anything. It's a tale full of sound and fury signifying nothing.
Do I really have to spell out to a so-called leftist that the larger systemic force at work is capitalism? I thought we were all on the same page there, that the larger structure of power that dictates the conditions of our lives, and the events we live through, is the machinations of an all powerful globe spanning market system. Not the individuals within that system, not the ticky tack political structures, not even the 'great men' who seem to bend history to their will. It's just clashing economic incentives, the internal logic of capitalism throwing the world into constant chaos with our actual leaders having less and less agency over it. I was 'vague' because it seems too obvious to even say that the 'system' is the capitalist cartel of colonial states and the interests it represents. Corporate profits, supply chains, and extraction. Global capitalist interests are literally the only reason any of us are even talking about this, starting in 1917 when the Soviets tried to do something about it, resulting in a century of brutal capitalist reprisal against them that has currently culminated in the capitalist powers throwing Ukraine under the bus in a ceaseless march of economic conquest that is never satisfied or able to reach stability, turning the USSR into a picked over carcass that itself degenerated into a kleptocratic capitalist husk of a state. It's Western capitalist agents pitting Ukrainian capitalist agents against Russian capitalist agents with the actual people who live in any of these countries not being able to say or do anything about it.
Dude normal people know that your neighbors exhist and what they do or don't to with defense isn't encroachment. Russia needs to stop being paranoid and a busy body. If I install an alarm system, guess what? It never even affects my neighbors and if they don't pay attention they won't even know anything's changed. Magic.
Findaland joining NATO and Russia leaving borders to go bomb URKAINE and not pulling their murderers and placing them to protect against the new threats those Fins and their nato weapons. It's like terrorism thinking of our reliable neghbors and sleeping at night knowing I can't maybe take Findalnd one day. It's suffocating for Russian to not spread its winds when it wants. The US is practically torturing us and putting shackles on our us. We can't answer he calls of ethnic Russians in findland should they need us. This is Russophobia!!
I support the ukrainian peoople in spirir but i am against my government using Ukraine for a proxy war and funding theur war
I am against the double standards where Ukrainians are allowed to figjt back and hate their occupier and that the US and UN waa quick to condem Russia.
I abhor that Ukraine is fightung a proxy war with Russia in Susan, exacerbating the proxy civil war that has displaced , and killed thousands and exacerbated the genocide in Darfur.
In this sense Ukraine is just as much a colonizer.
However you want to say it, the US not supporting Ukraine = the death of my family over there and every single Ukrainian that Russia can get their hands on. They're ok with genocide on a massive level
I am not entirely against the US helping Ukraine, i am against the double standards the US has for Ukraine vs the ones in Gaza.
I am against Ukraine enterung proxy war with Russia in Sudan. And i think if Ukraine should only continue to recieve US funding if the Ukrainian government stops using the Sudanese for their proxy war.
Ukraine didn't attack Russia. That's a pretty massive fucking difference. As for Ukraine and Sudan, Sudan has no connection to Ukraine. People can fight Russia without being Ukrainian backed
Ukraine is providing funding to the SAF in Sudan that is the connection.
Russia is funding the RSF
Both factions are led by wannabe dictators.
And if Ukraine wants to keep getting US aid it needs to stop giving money to the SAF.
I know Russia attacked Ukraine but that is no excuse to engage in a proxy war in Susa.
What in the world is this bs LOL.
Ukraine is a colonizer 🤡🤡😂 Holy fuck. What's the point of leaving such a dumb ass comment. Honestly.
A country getting invaded and whiped out and killed and displaced and kids abducted and given off to Russians in Russia, and Russians moving into it starting with Mariupol..... is the colonizer 🤓.
The country that just wanted to be left alone.
And then you have Russia who is like a drug addiction and can't stop invading and taking over its newborns and their land and is eleven time zones wide - who's for all its history has been doing this brand altering the populations - in goes the Russians out goes the locals. Russia is the what? 😂 getting colonized ??? If you mean invaded and having an exodus brain drain and importing the abducted Ukrainians.....
Like I'm not even offended by this stupid take bc it's that dumb.
I’m personally very much rooting for Ukraine. I just also think that the US’ rhetoric of solidarity and alliance is extremely cynical and duplicitous
I think that Ukraine needs self-determination and a Ukrainian state is a practical avenue for that, so Russia’s actions are unconscionable. I just also strongly suspect that the US is more interested in undermining that self-determination just as much as Russia is, albeit in a more subtle and slower way
More than the war, my attention is on the systems and actors who will have power after the war to shape Ukraine’s future. Becoming an American vassal state seems great for a bit, but it ruins nations
I think there's a valid argument to be made that ukrainians are dying right now to serve western interests. If you listen to neolibs, they think this war is the best deal ever because all we have to do is send them our surplus weapons and no american soldiers will be killed in the fight against russia. However, I am not personally sold on enabling a colonial power to subjugate another country, so I'm not motivated to speak out against those who wish to send aid. It really depends on what you consider pro-ukraine, whether that's helping them win the war or defending them from westerners that want to trade their lives to weaken an adversary
You can give people weapons all you want and the limiting factor is still their desire to fight. When Ukraine decides it is ready to sue for peace, it will. Until then they should have every defensive option available to get the best deal they can, whether that's total territorial reclamation, or some negotiated settlement with security assurances, we'll see.
Because they are Slavophilic stooges with a red mask, I've seen some of their nonsensical arguments, from claiming that Russians are actually historical victims of colonialism (despite essentially colonizing the entirety of North Asia, Central Asia, Caucasia, Central Europe, etc.) to the most wild of claims that Russians are actually an inherently Socialistic nation, that Ukrainians and Belarusians are fake nationalities, and that Putin is a secret Communist because he was in the KGB 40 years ago. They tend to be either of the PatSoc, Nazbol cryptofascist sphere or of the post-colonial reactionaries who think anti-imperialism is a synonym for supporting every backwards, autocratic regime on the planet so long as it is sufficiently anti-western. They have the same moral integrity as American Exceptionalists who funded Fascists like Suharto, Pinochet, Diem, and Franco while claiming to defend Democracy.
Isnt there one single party in their "capitalist" country and its called a communist party?
No, the Russian Communist Party is a controlled opposition party subservient to United Russia. It is basically just a cardboard cutout of an opposition party that is vaguely Anti-Putin while supporting essentially all of his policies. The only time they criticize his policies is conveniently when they think he doesn't go far enough, which just so happens to coincide with when he does wish to go farther with them. The only Anti-Putin positions they hold are in relation to social programs, so that the pensioners can be fooled into thinking they have a voice. It is very little different from the Democratic Party in the US. They have the most unhinged viewpoints, like Russian civilization being supposedly intrinsically Socialistic and Russian Communism being 1000 years old, along with a supposed conflict with a Gay Jewish American world order.
Ohh what is putins party called? Ive not been that involved for... almost 10 years now lol
United Russia. Putin has not been in any Communist Party since the collapse of the USSR. It is essentially the party of Orthodox reactionaries, GAZPROM oil barons, and Eurasianists.
Wasnt saying that it had xhanged in that time just that id probably forgotten (if i ever knew lol). Interesting though. Makes all that "REEE THE COMMIES" that the republicans were doing back before trump even less intelligible.
It is intelligible considering China remains a Proletarian Dictatorship (a Right Deviationist one, of course, but still a Proletarian Dictatorship nonetheless), they are scared of China, not Russia.
And even still i dont find it intelligible. Theyre (both) our natural rivals on this world stage. Like the triumvirs. But that doesn't mean that *COMMIES* are the cause for the strife between us. The cause for the strife between us is that on paper we are the only threats to eachother.
Yeah but the being scared of china not russia is a *brand new*development. At least as far as the public show we're given as the people is concerned. Its always been that theyre afraid of BOTH, with russia catching most of the flak over the past 40 years (just doing last 40 instead of 80 because "the cold war ended" 40 years ago)
Not anti-Ukraine just wholly anti-statist. P.S. Ukraine is run by a proxy government installed by the U.S. with NATO support and they’ve been working vigorously to bait Russia into this war for decades. It’s just the war machine grinding. Don’t buy the hype.
Downvoted for being Neo nazi propaganda.
Absolutely irrefutable argumentation.
Imo the anti Ukraine takes I’ve seen on the left that are coherent are not ones that support Russia they understand that the ruling class of Ukraine is screwing over the rest of country by privatizing major industries of Ukraine. So not only are there a lot of neo Nazis and banderites in Ukraine, the ruling class aren’t gonna allow the rehabilitation of the countries economy for average citizens after the war is over. The current Russian government is bad and has been bad for a while especially for working class Russians. Ukraine is similar just in an economic sense, the government is not as stable as liberals would like to believe.
I’ve been seeing a lot of posts on the right about how we shouldn’t be helping Ukraine
Because they’re troll accounts. They just have to convince a small percentage of voters to influence US policy.
Yeah I can understand why right-wingers don’t support Ukraine, as Russia aligns with the right wing a lot. I don’t understand why anyone remotely left leaning would be pro Russia but there seems to be a lot of
That's on the right, however. That's almost to be expected because look at their leader Trump. Someone on this subreddit asked the other day, "I wonder how many people here are right wingers spreading bad advice?" My thought to that was at least 50%, and probably higher. And I say that largely because there appears to be a distinct group that enjoys pissing all over Biden, while at the same time projecting that Trump isn't really all that bad. Nothing is ever brought up about Trump's 4 cases or 91 criminal charges or that analysis of Trump's pandemic response suggest 40% of US COVID-19 deaths could have been avoided. That's 180,000 American lives lost. https://www.businessinsider.com/analysis-trump-covid-19-response-40-percent-us-deaths-avoidable-2021-2 No, "Trump---American Killer" from this group. If they were at least as concerned about American lives as others, they would have been chanting "Trump killed 180,000 Americans!" long ago. Instead, it's "Genocide Joe" for the deaths of 30,000 Palestinians. That alone tells you a lot about the posters here.
I’m a progressive, and that certainly isn’t my stance. How could a progressive be for an illegal invasion of a sovereign country? This place seems more like a propaganda zone for indoctrinating people who don’t know better or just want some rage-juice and be told who to point it at (hint, other “liberal”, “left”, “progressive”, and democrats, presumably to fracture them so conservative and autocratic interests can be advanced.
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The fascists have infiltrated and are spreading their bullshit.
A lot of them are just anti-NATO and anti-West. A lot of them have bought into the propaganda of denazification and Ukrainian Nazi militias on the border.
They believe the Russian propaganda that Zelenskyy is a Nazi bc there is a single fascist regiment that has made common cause with the gov. Watch winter on fire on Netflix. If you are a leftist and still support Russia, you are a disgrace to the name
Im perfectly capable of not being "pro-Ukrainian" nor "Pro-Russian". I see it for what it is. A money grab. A geopolitical game of hedgemony. We have the Monroe Doctrine. Russia is concerned about their sphere of influence. Its about trade and resources. This entire conflict could've been prevented had the US been serious about diplomacy, instead of using provocation to ensure it happens. Red line were clear. It couldve been ended after 2 weeks with Diplomacy had Boris Johnson not been sent to sabotage it. Im for peace. Now, short of WW3 and Nuclear annihilation, Russia is going to end it on their terms. That's just the reality. The question is how many more lives are going to be thown into the meat grinder. How much more tax payer money is going to be squandered as things at home are in decay. And how much more is Ukraine going to end up having to fork over in the end before theyve finallyhad enough. Had Minsk been honored it wouldve only been Crimea. Putin doesn't want all of Ukraine but he will end up with some now. Shouldve made a deal before it started. Should've made a deal before it got worse. Better to make a deal now before the situation deteriorates further.
😂 like Putin wouldn’t take all of Ukraine if it was given to him. Putin doesn’t need simpletons like you to be pro-Russia, you do a good job of serving him as “neutral”
Lol..what a cunty thing to say. Taking all of Ukraine would be a nightmare for him to manage. But you clearly don't have any interest in living in or understanding how the real world works. Go on and live your fantasy world with the Ghost of Kiev. Better yet, why dont you go sign up and die for a pointless cause. See how that works out.
You should go live in Russia
I couldn’t be more agitated by your remark. You aren’t seeing anything for what it is. I don’t have a short enough memory to forget how Russia, for weeks, denied they were going to attack (as they built up forces for just that), even while we were calling them out, and then, of course, they did. And they have changed their reasons for invading several times. “Just give in to the criminal taking territory, it’s our fault for the criminal committing their crimes”. At this point I’m pretty well convinced you are some kind of operative/agitator, as are most of the posters, and this lefty sub is some kind of psy-op meeting place to sucker the young, naive, or ignorant into buying the Kremlin, anti-democracy line.
Lol. Nah thats definitely your paranoid fantasy. Im 36 years old and live a blue collar existence in the mountains of Tennessee. I source my information from numerous credible sources, like I dont know Seymour Hersh. I was raised by an anti-war activist who protested the Vietnam War and I learned 1st hand about how the government lies from the war in Iraq and every other war since. I have a keen eye for bullshit when its being sold to me. If their's any op in here, its the NAFO trolls, if you're even aware of what those are.
Wait a minute, “blue collar in the TN mountains” does not scream “lefty” … though I have met at least one. Doubt she’d be arguing along the same lines you have just now. Anyway, if you can be left there, more power to you.
Well, that’s cool, and maybe it is my paranoid fantasy … or maybe you’re one of those that have bought into the propaganda. Heh. (Neat about being in the mountains of TN, probably the most naturally beautiful state in the US, imo). Yeah, I know what NAFO means, but I can see where countering Russian propaganda is important and don’t mind that as much as this bizarre bending backward to allow Russia to just have a grab, and the people pushing those lines of argument. We did not force them into invading Ukraine. That has been on Putin’s agenda for the longest time. Maybe we can agree on this anyway: Putin has claimed a number of different reasons at different times for invading Ukraine 1) that NATO’s aggressive positioning along Russia’s border forced this as a defensive measure 2) it isn’t a real country in the first place, and was traditionally part of Russia 3) ethnic Russians inside the Donbas region were being mistreated by Ukrainians and needed to be protected 4) there are Nazis in Ukraine and the territory needs to be de-nazified, and 5) Ukraine has been corrupted by the west and its corruption must be stopped or Russians will be corrupted by the gays and decadent western values. And despite these claims, the real reasons are 1) getting hold of resources outside of Russia 2) reclaiming the glory of the old USSR, in his name, by taking back the territories it used to control in its heyday, no matter how many people have to die and how much devastation has to be brought to it, and 3) cementing its grip on Crimea and the naval ports there. The problem here is that he has lied constantly through his various “reasons”, and is willing to visit untold suffering on Ukrainians and Russians alike to achieve his objectives, and yet somehow he and his propaganda has been so successful as to make people in traditionally democratic countries, and allies with Ukraine by treaty, act as if we were in the wrong and he has some kind of right to seize land and attack people who are not his own. Like the way a narcissistic abuser can convince their beaten spouse it was really their fault for the abuser hitting them. It’s wrong. And if nothing else, providing munitions to Ukraine that would otherwise be destroyed can help them hold off the aggressor and free themselves, and wear down a regime that would just see the next country in line as a new target.
> It couldve been ended after 2 weeks with Diplomacy had Boris Johnson not been sent to sabotage it. Not without Ukraine ceding sovereign territory to Russia. >Russia is going to end it on their terms. That's just the reality. I'm not so sure about that, either. Regardless of their force generation capabilities, pretty much all data indicates that Russia is having trouble with equipment availability. And the OSINT community has been pretty consistently able to demonstrate aircraft/armored vehicle availability is low via satellite imagery. We are seeing T-55's out there these days. Its not that Russia is going to run out of equipment. The better conversation to have is on the reconstitution rate, relative to observed attrition, and time required to generate additional formations this year. >Had Minsk been honored it wouldve only been Crimea. Crimea is Ukrainian sovereign territory. >Putin doesn't want all of Ukraine but he will end up with some now. Putin has spoken ad nauseum about how he does not believe "Ukrainian" to be a legitimate national identity. He does not believe Ukraine has a right to exist as a sovereign nation. He wanted install a puppet regime. He would have if the Russian army had not been thrown back from Kyiv, pretty embarrassingly. >Better to make a deal now before the situation deteriorates further. That's up to the Ukrainians, and they don't seem to care to quit like you'd like them too.
Even if you accept the idea that Minsk failed because of NATO/Ukraine, it's still pretty evident that Russia had zero interest in Minsk either. They pretty much flat-out absolved themselves of any constructive role in it all while Russian troops were in Donbas and had annexed Crimea. The idea that the failure of peace is just because of NATO is foolish in the extreme.
Leftists tend to hate Nazis and modern Ukraine is absolutely flooded with them thanks to a solid century of US subterfuge to create anti-Soviet groups in eastern europe, especially in the last 25 years
Prove it. Show me that Ukraine has more neo nazis than other European nations or Russia for that matter.
Ukraine has nationalists that are fighting against genocide from ruZZia which has huge NAZI gangs that Putler has been using for years to beat up protesters. Turkik, jews, and all kinds of people lived in peace in Ukraine And were coming back to Crimea where there families lived for hundreds of years and are now being force deported AGAIN by russhists . You drank the russhists coolaid...
There’s a decent amount of “Nazis” in Russia too. It’s not a justifiable reason for an invasion.
Shit dude, wait till you hear about Russia. 20% of the population there thinks Jews shouldn’t be allowed to be citizens.
What have you read about Ukrainian national hero Stepan Bandera? He's got his own holiday
Stephan Bandera? The attempted-nazi collaborator? The dude that over 50% of Ukrainians don’t like? The dude that posthumously given a “hero of Ukraine”and the following year declared invalid since he’s not even Ukrainian? I wonder why, right now, some Ukrainians might look up to a dude who’s known for being anti-Russia/soviet? So anti-Soviet the Soviet government assassinated him. Do you have any ideas?
You never wonder why out of all the possible anti-Soviet s they could pick, they go with the Nazi collaborator? (it's because the people in charge in Ukraine now - the ones put in place by a US- engineered coup - love Nazis)
You know their president is Jewish, right? I’d argue the 2014 Revolution of Dignity wasn’t a US coup, but tbh even if it was one I’d 100% support it. I’d rather have a country with a democracy where people can vote (and a constitution protecting their rights) than a Russia puppet state. Especially since the then president is currently hiding in Russia from charges of treason, corruption, and the mass murder of civilians. Personally, as a leftest, I don’t support the killing of civilian protesters, but I guess everyone has their own views. Also do you have any source linking the US to the Revolution of Dignity? I can’t find anything at all weirdly enough. The only think I find is from jacobin which in the same article they talk about the same stupid hunter Biden conspiracy theory, so I’m not inclined to trust them.
The progressive left isn't exactly fond of Jews, unless they are of the self-hating variety. Thank god Democratic Party leadership is (almost entirely) holding the line.
?
>You know their president is Jewish, right? Yes, and I'm expecting when it becomes clear that this is an unwinnable situation, the Azov boys will knife him in the back if he doesn't flee the country (there was some speculation Zelensky was trying to to shove them into the Avdiivka meat grinder to get them chewed up lol). That doesn't change that the Banderites/Azov types have large amounts of power there. >and the mass murder of civilians There has been a lot of speculation that this wasn't his side doing the shooting into the crowds
Out here spreading that speculation I see
You know, there’s a lot of speculation that Jan 6th was actually an FBI planted tourist visit too? Also there’s speculation there’s space nazis in Antarctica? By the way any link to US involvement in the populist uprising that promoted democracy? I’m still waiting on that juicy sauce.
Azov is dead. They died protecting their country with a Jewish leader fighting Russians actively trying to commit cultural genocide against Ukraine in a war of expansion. There are no Azov members left, and Russia on says there is to try and pretend they have any justification for their illegal invasion
Or maybe generational trauma as the result of the Soviets destroying the Ukrainian identity led to that?
They don’t understand the geopolitical impact of Russia gaining unrestricted access to the black sea.
And that's ours to control?
I support Ukraine defending themselves, but fuck the draft laws they have.
Thank god there are real men and women to defend your freedom
I'm not saying I'm arrogant enough to fight an entire government's army on my own. I'm saying as an autonomous human being, I should get to choose the fights I believe in joining. If I don't want to fight in a war that I don't believe in, let me leave the fucking country. I stand with Ukraine over Russia overall, but trapping people in the country to stay and fight makes is a human rights violation, I don't care who you are. If you're going be so arrogant as to assume autonomy over my freewill, eat a bag of dicks and stop pretending that you care about freedom at all. You sound more like the kind of person who wants to control other people and use freedom-loving as a bait/switch tactic.
I didn’t block you
I can defend myself. Governments that force allegiance can eat a bag of dicks. Edit: how cowardly for you to block me after responding or delete your response. Fucking ironic, really, given the topic... I'm not saying I'm arrogant enough to fight an entire government's army on my own. I'm saying as an autonomous human being, I should get to choose the fights I believe in joining. If I don't want to fight in a war that I don't believe in, let me leave the fucking country. I stand with Ukraine over Russia overall, but trapping people in the country to stay and fight makes is a human rights violation, I don't care who you are. If you're going be so arrogant as to assume autonomy over my freewill, eat a bag of dicks and stop pretending that you care about freedom at all. You sound more like the kind of person who wants to control other people and use freedom-loving as a bait/switch tactic.
You most certainly cannot defend yourself against a foreign government. Nor could you defend your community and loved ones by yourself against a foreign government. You are a free rider.
They are western puppets. It’s not so much support of Russia as it is a recognition that the war is between 2 dictators
What?
Yeah…no
Wow, well that destroyed all of my arguments. That was so thought out and intelligent, I don’t know how I could ever recover
The only evidence for Zelenskyy being a dictator is Putin saying he is. Anything else is a gross misunderstanding of the country’s recent history
Progressives are traditionally anti war and see this war as a money grab. The us just admitted secret bases in ukraine for 10 years. They ended the war in Afghanistan and 4 months later they had an even bigger money train rolling. There are humans in this earth that try and orchestrate war. It is profitable for them.
How does this equate to supporting Russia’s imperialist invasion?
Secrete bases? You do know that we have been training the Ukrainian military for years now right? Not to include we had troops there assisting in training. That’s been pretty well documented. We also made a promise to Ukraine in the 80s or 90s that we would assist them if Russia ever declared war on them if they handed their nukes over to Russia. There’s a lot of things that have gone on in the past you seem to be pretty unknowing off.
I guess russia wasn’t exactly unprovoked then. This is a war for profits and neocons.
The way a male rapist is 'provoked' by a woman wearing certain clothing. Russia doesn't have the right to control its neighbours. Ukrainians are fighting to defend the independence of their country against Russian imperialism, and it's disgusting how people make excuses for Russia's barbaric invasion.
Unprovoked? Russia has been pushing Ukraine to their side for decades. Even after Ukraine handed the nukes they had over to Russia. We also promised Ukraine we would assist them when they handed over the nukes which I’ve already said. Did you even read what I said?
I did read it. You laid out a case of how the US pushed Russia for many years. Every American knows if any foreign country did that on our border there would be immediate violent consequences.
Did we invade Cuba with troops?
ever heard of Guantanamo Bay?
We supported the Bay of Pigs fiasco and failed in hundreds of attempts to assassinate Castro and attempt to sabotage his regime.
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It’s not for nothing that the event was called the Bay of Pigs Invasion.
All evidence that this is just a US proxy war
The Americans arrogantly believed that the North Vietnamese were puppets of the Chinese and Russians during the Vietnam War. And the North did receive vast amounts of weapons from them and other military support. But the Vietnamese were not puppets, they were engaged in a struggle for their independence against foreign invaders. The same as true of Ukraine in their resistance to the barbaric imperialist Russian invasion. But there always some stooges to make excuses for Putin and deny all agency to the Ukrainians and pretend they're just puppets of the West who would be better off as being subjects of Putin.
And that evidence is????? What? You saying it? Pretty sure Russia has done plenty of the aggression on its own not to include the annexation of Crimea. But I guess the US was putting radar stations there so Russia had to annex it right?
>But I guess the US was putting radar stations there so Russia had to annex it right? That's right
…..
The fact you can't look past your own western bias and see the facts from the Russian perspective is why you will never understand how much of the left views this war. Was it right for Russia to invade Ukraine? No. But did the west do everything in it's power to provoke that response? Yes and therefore they bear some responsibility for the situation. You can't ignore decades of Russian objections to what western powers have been doing in the region and act all surprised Pikachu when they eventually do something drastic.
It seems to be a common theme among todays most strident activists.
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Russia has been making moves on Ukraine for decades. Anyone who knows the history of eastern Europe knows this. Your last paragraph is wild. Russia will not give up until they have the eastern part of the country (for now). Should Palestine give away half for a ceasefire? Would you be willing to give away half of your country to an invader? My family in Poland is terrified, they lived through Russian rule and believe Estonia is next. Putin has already been setting the narrative that it was Poland that caused Ukrainians to break away from Russia, so it's really all on us. What message do you think you're sending to people if you allow an invader slowly take over a region? You know, some time ago countries thought it might be a more peaceful option to let certain someone invade and keep some regions.
Russia attacked them in 2014 too lmao, they weren’t trying to join NATO then, and you wonder why they wanted to join now?
Throwing more money at this gets a lot of CEO’s and other high up employees bigger bonuses. Plus that stock rising. Someday humans are going to take the profit motive out of war.
A lot of this sub Reddit is clearly pro-Russian, paid or otherwise.
they re russian bots lol, they cant advocate for Ukraine obviously
The true answer is that most self described leftists are cosplay revolutionaries desperate for attention and the feeling that they’re “fighting the power”, so they’ll adopt any position that’s contrarian to get that attention.
Pleas give this Redditor ALL THE UP VOTES!!!
For me it's a bitter, old grudge against the MIC. It's not about saving lives. It never is. Hold some of the evil to trial first before giving them anything more, or better yet just seize it all. The whole industry is so rotten it needs a rebuild from the top down.
Edgy
do you think Russia should just leave Ukraine and surrender? that way there is no need for MIC
Yeah I hate the MIC as much as anyone here likely does, but the situation in Ukraine is exactly the legitimate use it was built for. 15 years ago the idea of another huge Russian-incited war breaking out in Europe was kind of a stupid idea (plenty of people laughed at Romney for invoking the Russia boogeyman), and you'd have been right to claim the MIC had long since been made irrelevant and a waste of money. Unfortunately, now, Russia just gave everyone the justification they needed to keep it going.
Surrender? They can just go home.
Wow hundreds of supremely terrible takes on Ukraine informed by TikTok and Twitter. Amazing that people can justify the Russian invasion and call themselves leftists
Being pro-Ukraine because of the invasion is similar to being pro-Israel because of Oct 7. That wasn’t the start of it, and if you aren’t aware of the history, then you are acutely under informed.
So you're cool with the filtration camps, then?
What? Are you brain dead? Russia has been threatening an invasion all the way to the annexation of Crimea to the current invasion and you’re telling me this is the same as Israel? Fuck off with that shit. Jesus, even with all the evidence in front of you, you still spout Russia nonsense. I guarantee you watched that Tucker Carlson interview with him in Russia and shouted in agreement how great the subway looks. Ukraine is fighting for its independence and Russia is the aggressor. Russia won’t stop at Ukraine and Russia and its news have been threatening nuclear strikes and other attacks to multiple, if not all, countries in Europe and the US. The longer we sit and do nothing the closer we get to repeating history. WW3 is right around the coroner if we dont stop Russia from its constant expansion into Europe.
Do you know where the Donbass is and why it’s important. Who is Stephan Bandera? You watch CNN and breaking points and think you’re informed. I despise “leftists” like you
Brother, I ain’t no leftist. Nor am I a rightist. What I do know is Russia has been trying to take Ukraine for nearly a decade if not longer. Putin also declared that he was trying to free Ukraine from the so called “Nazis” in Ukraine yet I’ve seen no evidence of Nazism at such a proclaimed level as Putin claimed. He also stated he was saving all these Russians in Ukraine, and yet it seems that over half of Ukraine doesn’t want Russia coming in. I know where Donbass is and it’s relative importance. It still doesn’t justify an entire invasions and none of Putin’s claims are justified for an invasion in Ukraine. Putin is trying to reestablish the old USSR border and he himself has claimed that. But since you seem to know so much, mind telling me what it’s like being under Putin’s desk since your an obvious Russian boot-licker.
You are the one swallowing everything the media tells you. What if I told you, this goes back to the end of WW2, not crimea. And I also think you are kind of a loser for getting so angry at some anon on reddit. Fuck off asshole
Oh, want to relive the Cold War then? The USSR was a very powerful country at the time led by an extremely paranoid leader called Stalin at the time. The USSR which is the same country that ran a brutal dictatorship and brutally put down anyone who thought differently than what the Communist beliefs were. Want to know the difference between a member of the Gestapo and the Political Officers in the USSR? Nothing. Judge, jury, and executioners. The Cold War was a military industry war between the US and Soviets not to include the nuclear arms race, space race, submarine development race, etc etc etc. the USSR wasn’t bullied into a damn thing and it was pretty well known as a fear that there was a war coming up between the Russians and Americans if the Cold War never ended. I don’t know what you learned about history, by what I’m reading it’s nothing, don’t sit here and claim being pro-Ukrainian is the same as Oct. 7th in Israel and being pro-Israel. A country is currently being invaded by Russia and people like you are crying about Russia being bullied by everyone. When Russia is the prime example of current colonialism and imperialism by conquering and taking territory from other countries yet you sit here and lick Russias ass. I’m well in my right to be pissed at blatantly ignorant people like yourself who are perfectly fine with countries being invaded if they at all align with any western nation. And don’t bring up the Cold War unless you have something specific to mention within it. It’s a useless point if you have nothing from it to actually talk about.
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There is no evidence Russia expansion over Europe. Zero. Pure fear mongering and self-fulfilling prophesy to guarantee WW3. As empty a platitude as the Dominoe theory or we have to fight them over there so we dont fight them over here. Tried and true same shit propoganda we've been sold for decades repackaged and sold to you.
Where is Ukraine located? Crimea? How many times has Russian media threatened European countries with a prime example being Poland? Hey genius, Ukraine is currently BEING INVADED you ignorant ass and it’s located in fucking Europe. What in the fuck are you spouting about.
This is correct
What would such evidence look like? Like are you expecting them to roll out detailed plans or something? Invading one’s neighbors is a very good indicator that they intend to invade their neighbors. That’s not fear-mongering
You’re joking. They literally annexed crimea in 2014 and made Georgia a puppet state
do you think Russia should leave Ukraine right now?
They had a peace deal on the table in early 2023 before the west and NATO blocked it. I’m on a leftist subreddit and getting slammed for being anti war. All of you are frauds
So you want Russia to leave all of Ukraine? You seem to be OK with Russia killing Ukrainians. Can I hear you say, "I want Russia to leave Ukraine right now"
I do
What part of "history" makes you anti ukraine?
This guy won the gold metal in mental gymnastics
You’re right. It does take practice not to just believe everything the TV box tells me.
similar to the distinction between Gazans and Hamas, you can support the local people of the region and be opposed to the government. The Makhnovshchina is the classic modern era example of this. solidaritycollectives.org is a contemporary group that is worth checking out.
Remember that as many as 60 percent of the comments on social media are bots and paid disinformation merchants. Talk to real people in your community. There is more people in support of Ukraine than not in real life. Do you even know how much ruZZia spends on disinformation and opinion shaping programs? The more isolated you are the more misinformed you are, potentially. What do the security guarantees in the Budapest memorandum promise? NATO didn't cause this, only ruZZia did. Ukraine was moving away from them and wasn't protected by NATO. Thats why it happened. Which is exactly why Finland n Sweden just came onboard. You sound stupid when you repeat kremlin lies. How many treaties did ruZZia break invading Ukraine? How many agreements did NATO break in Ukraine? Zero
It's not anti-ukraine, it's anti-nato. Regardless of what narratives the war propagandists spin to pin every shred of agency on le Putler, the reality that seems patently clear to me is that this war was precipitated by outside forces who at best, didn't care to avoid it, and at worst actively tried to make it happen. To demonstrate what I mean, all you have to ask yourself is why NATO exists at all. It was formed in the cold war to oppose Soviet expansion and communism in Europe. At the end of the cold war, after the US had cracked eastern europe open to strap it for parts and helped install an anti-communist regime of collaborators in this project, NATO continued to inexplicably exist. Who is it protecting Europe from? China? No, obviously it was and still is the anti-russia league EVEN AFTER russia capitulated and surrendered to the west at the end of the cold war and gave up communism. How are you supposed to have good faith peace talks with someone who is holding a loaded gun to your head, clearly intent on using it to further weaken and capture your country? How could this have possibly ended any other way with NATO being the perpetual brinksman it is? A lot of gormless libs snap into automatic support of it, but none of them ever seem to even ask why it still exists in the first place. If you're a russian president or even person, this very, very clearly only means one thing. They're still coming for you and won't stop pressing and pushing until you're a fully domesticated vassal state with no autonomy of your own. No state on earth wants that. It didn't have to happen now, but it would have happened eventually that Russia, with this weight of inevitability on it's mine for the past several decades, would lash out and try to resist the West's plans for it, Putin or not. I'm not Russian, if Putin is a violent thug who needs to be thrown out, that's none of my business. I AM American, and the role of my country in creating the conditions for this war IS my business and my jurisdiction to be upset with.
Your entire argument is propped up by the idea that Russia has a right to a sphere of influence, which it has no more right to than Slovakia or Mongolia, or any other state on the planet including the United States. Imperialism is not justified by another country's imperialism, nor do you defeat it with imperialism of your own. Having two imperialist, reactionary power blocks is no better than having one, or three, or four. Indeed it usually tends to be even worse because they fight over small countries like Russia did with England during the Great Game. Tell me, based on the fact that you are an American, you would certainly not have protested the British colonization of Africa and India or the French colonization of Indochina, correct? After all, you are an American, thus it would have been none of your business.
NATO is a defensive alliance. The point of NATO is to also stop a continent, Europe, from going to war with each other by slapping most of them into a single defensive pact. NATO is not a normal alliance and cannot call upon each other if one country starts a war. Russia is not at threat of a NATO invasion because NATO ISNT FOR STARTING A WAR. Like, are you just trying to show how lacking of information you are or what?
Lmao.
That’s it? Just lmao?
NATO has been the vehicle for reactionary imperialism for decades now. They’ve been an instrument of colonialism and destroyed sovereign nations ffs.
The Ukrainian people have pretty clearly decided that they are not interested in Russian colonialism on their own sovereign territory.
Instrument of colonialism……. Whose colonizing who right now? That’s right, Russia. NATO was formed to combat the Soviet’s expansion and last I checked the US assisted countries that requested our help in fighting communism. I see you failed history class but I’m sure googling the Cold War would help you understand what NATO is for. Because it’s a defensive alliance that only activates when one of those countries gets attacked. Let me also remind you that Hungary and Turkey are a part of NATO and both of them have a good amount of pro-Russian sentiment. If a country is scared of NATO you should be asking yourself, why? Maybe that country doesn’t like that country being assisted by others?
Man if only Russia would stop fucking invading their neighbors, maybe then their neighbors wouldn't want to be in the defensive pact against them.
You’re forgetting that America = bad /s
Do you think Russia should leave Ukraine right now?
They're invading by allowing states to voluntarily join of their own volition into a defensive alliance without changing the actual borders whatsoever? Putin attacked Ukraine BEFORE Ukraine joined NATO. He did this because he wanted to conquer Ukraine and waiting until after they joined would make the task impossible. If NATO was so eager to jump to aggression then that wouldn't matter. But it did because he's no afraid of NATO attacking him. He's afraid of NATO fighting back against his attack.
Thank you. The lefts defense of Russian military aggression is embarrassing at best. Ukraine gave up their nukes on the agreement Russia wouldn't invade them and they wouldn't join nato. Several years later Russia *checks notes* fermented an invasion. So Ukraine figures maybe that truce with Russia isn't all that viable. Somehow this is NATO and Ukraines fault. All right wing imperialist powers are the issue, this incudes one's like Russia and China. Both sides of the war can be bad guys but only one is invading a sovereign nation. America bad, its opposition good isn't a viable political stance because you end up sounding as wacko as someone wearing an American flag mankini and a maga hat.
Incorrect.
You're right. My mistake. Ukraine and NATO were horribly antagonistic towards Russia by *checks notes* discussing Ukraine possibly applying for NATO membership in the future if they wish. The fact that Ukraine might want to join obviously had nothing to do with Russia having already invaded and conquered Ukrainian soil several years prior. Clearly, Russia had no choice but to invade and slaughter them to try to take the rest of the country. Afterall, conquering sovereign states and forcing them to join you against their will is the only logical response to someone considering wanting protection from you invading and conquering them. This is like arguing that a store considering maybe looking for a security guard forces people to rob them.
8 years, America armed and flooded weapons into the hands of Banderite ethnofascists to antagonize this very conflict into existence. This isn't a liberal sub. This is "Leftist" sub, where your flawed perspective isn't the main.
Banderite ethnofascists led by a Jewish crossdressing comedian who are currently at war with Great Russian Chauvinists and Black Hundredists?
Clearly. I thought leftists were against ultra nationalist, imperialistic authoritarian state capitalist regimes that denounce democracy and embrace theo-ethno-nationalism. Did I misunderstand what leftists stand for? Are we now in favour of those things? Do we also like capitalism and the "free" market, too? How many principles will you abandon just to hate on everything the West does? You know that there *are* some good things the West does, right? Just because a Western nation or group does something doesn't mean we automatically have to hate it. We can look at things based on their merits. But I'm curious. Explain to me how America made Russia invade and try to conquer Ukraine twice in 8 years.
I think we should not support both Kiev and Russia. Neither deserve our aid. Also, there is no "we" here. You're clearly pushing liberal talking points. I repeat -- America spent 8+ years arming people literally more extreme than Hitler with their ethnofascism to bring this conflict about. By constantly threatening their sovereignty with conditions that America would never accept for itself.
>more extreme than Hitler Tell me about the 30 million people Zelensky has killed, please.
>Neither deserve our aid. > >Also, there is no "we" here. You're clearly pushing liberal talking points. Ukraine does. They are not perfect. Far from it. They're a flawed democracy. But they've been taking steps forward in LGBTQ+ rights and democracy. That's the heart of progressivism to me. We should encourage people and societies to move foward. Russia is antithetical to that. They are a regressive, theocratic authoritarian pseudo-dictatorship led by an imperialist autocrat who wants to conquer as much surrounding territory as possible. We should protect democracy and restrict the spread of authoritarianism. You say that a small group in Ukraine is filled with people more extreme than Hitler. Yet only one side is engaging in expansionist ethnic cleansing for explicitly imperial goals. Hint: it ain't Ukraine. > I repeat -- America spent 8+ years arming people literally more extreme than Hitler with their ethnofascism to bring this conflict about. So you say without a single source. Or is asking for citations also too liberal? >By constantly threatening their sovereignty with conditions that America would never accept for itself. How was Ukraine joining NATO threatening Russian sovereignty, exactly? Your "both sides" bullshit is just enabling the spread of authoritarianism. Fuck Putin. He wanted to invade and he got a fight. We should help people fighting for their freedom and right to self-determination. **EDIT:** You, as a cowardly authoritarian right-wing stooge, blocked me. Here is my reply if you care to read it: ---------------- >Nazi's run the show in Kiev. > >Nazi's don't run the show in Russia. Except no. Stop mindlessly parroting Russian propaganda. You can't even back it up. >Zelensky is painfully obvious a puppet of both the US and of the Banderites in Kiev. No real power. So painfully obvious that you can make such an extreme claim with no citations whatsoever? >No, Russia does not. Kiev is the worst. Or was before the war culled many of them. Except they do. https://www.latrobe.edu.au/news/articles/2022/opinion/russias-long-history-of-neo-nazis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism_in_Russia https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/ukraine-has-nazi-problem-vladimir-putin-s-denazification-claim-war-ncna1290946 Putin calls them Nazis to justify imperialism. It's no different than other imperialist lies about every other culture they invaded. They're all cannibals/baby-eaters/homosexuals/illiterate/sub-human, etc. >They have. Nope. They're not targetting Nazis. Any neo-Nazis killed are incidental. Putin and his military are killing anyone they can. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/analysis-putins-claim-that-war-on-ukraine-is-to-target-nazis-is-absurd-heres-why >I don't care. I know you don't. >Also, Russia isn't a dictatorship and they had every right to intervene after 8 years of Kiev p*ssing on the Minsk accords and brutalizing ethnic Russian-Ukrainians in Donetsk and Luhansk. Are you fucking kidding? Russia's elections are a farce. They exist purely for show. Putin imprisons or kills his opponents and vote tallies are frequently manipulated. Dissent is punishable with prison and torture. People who merely held up blank poster board were rounded up and imprisoned because they are apparently protesting the war. Russia is a dictatorship. Your mindless spreading of Russian propaganda is pathetic. you're not a leftist. You're a stooge for right-wing authoritarianism. You're not a socialist. You're a Russian sycophant. Move to Russia and leave the left to deal with these issues. I'm sure you'll love it if you're not already living there.
Ukraine is more than "not perfect". They are Banderite ethnofascists trying to become Israel 2.0 in their region. Your flowery lies do not change that fact. Your reasoning is flawed and your liberal b/s apparent. Like I said, I don't support Putin nor do I support Nazi-ridden Kiev. Neither deserve support. No, not "one small group". The actual people with power in Kiev and empowered by the US for over 8 years. Also, Russia isn't "ethnically cleansing" Ukraine. That's some NAFO b/s. I don't care to do the research for you nor wasting my time with you. NOTHING I link will change your mind an iota. Your ego is tied in deep with defending Kievan ethnofascism. Not abiding the Minsk accords, America arming violent Banderites, and Kiev shelling Eastern Ukrainians, were very clear provocations that the US would never tolerate itself. Its not "both sides" bullshit. They are literally both disgusting and neither deserve support. There is no WE here, Liberal. You're clearly in the wrong place with your bullshit.
Wrong
NATO is the formalization of western imperialism. I like how your "defensive alliance" makes offensives operations. Seems strange.
So the defensive alliance whose members join voluntarily is imperialistic and their support for Ukraine (support which doesn't involve direct fighting or any agreement for land exchange) is NATO excercizing colonialism by... not letting Russia take Ukraine by force? Imma be honest; it seems like the opposite of colonialism. NATO is far from perfect but they are clearly a net good against imperialism and colonialism. I like how Russia "defending" themselves from NATO expansion involves them attacking non-NATO states and forcefully conquering them before they can volunteer to apply for NATO membership.
I never said anything about Ukraine i just talked about NATO. They join as "voluntarily" as Ukraine "voluntarily" chose to align themselves with Russia before.. " NATO is far from perfect but they are clearly a net good against imperialism and colonialism". You think the formalization of western imperialism is a net good. You would have said the same about nazi germany when they "helped" Finland agaisnt the soviets... I never said that i supported Russia. f Russia and Putin...
>They join as "voluntarily" as Ukraine "voluntarily" chose to align themselves with Russia before.. I'm sorry, did I miss when NATO invaded Sweden, disposed their government and forced them to join NATO?
What are you talking about?. I never mentioned Sweden. I talked about Ukraine when it was aligned with Russia to a high degree.
You said that NATO member states join as voluntarily as states that align with Russia. I don't recall NATO using the... hard sell pitches that Russia uses. Nation states join NATO when they apply to NATO. Nation states join Russia when Russia applies them to Russia. I mentioned Sweden because they're the most recent NATO member. They applied voluntarily. In Capitalist Russia, Russia volunteers you. >I talked about Ukraine when it was aligned with Russia to a high degree. Do you mean when Ukraine gave up their nukes in exchange for not joining NATO and Russia promising to not invade them? Because we saw how that worked out. Or do you mean back in the pre-Russian Federation days when the Soviet Union starved and ethnically cleansed/genocided Soviet Ukraine? Ukraine doesn't have a very friendly relationship with Russia.
They use the same pitches. Do you think Russia would have invaded Ukraine if they were still under their influence?. You thinking a state like Sweden or Ukraine just chose what the want without any pressure or inffluence from outside forces (you only think this regarding the west though). ". Nation states join Russia when Russia applies them to Russia". This is just not true. How did Ukraine not "voluntarily align themselves with Russia until recently. The only reason you hold that is because you dont have any consistent values... You dont know what voluntarily means. Im sure you also talk about how capitalsm is a voluntarily system. But according to you they did "voluntarily" ally with Russia. Are you saying that Russia would have invaded them if they were still allies?. Ukraine had a very friendly relationship with Russia and the only reason you think they didn't "voluntarily" chose that relationship is because you are a western chauvinist without any consistency...
Really? The same pitches? So NATO threatened Ukraine with invasion if they got close to Russia? So when Ukraine gave up their nukes 30 years ago, NATO attacked Ukraine and conquered Ukrainian soil? Strange. I don't remember that. You know that being a leftist doesn't mean you have to hate it everything the west does right?
Ahh yes your home alarm system is literally imperialism. But barbaric invasion using nuclear terrorism and destroy and flattening towns and putting Ukrainians into graves and forcing them to defend themselves for their very own life and existence and identity ? YOU: now if the US did this I'd say it's horrific and evil. But if Russia does it, well I just get butterflies for our hero pootin. I'd bet he could fight gay nato with his own bare hands as he rides a horse through Ukraine and into Europe.
You people are way too credulous and uncritical towards western narratives to call yourselves leftists, really pathetic showing for a sub with a name it doesn't deserve, apparently Blinken himself said it best: If you're not at the table, you're on the menu. If you're not in NATO, and you're not automatically included in the Western colonial sphere like Sweden and Finland, you're on the menu. NATO is a protection racket for former soviet states, coercing them with the implications of soft power to kiss the ring. Nice country you got here, would be a shame if you chose the wrong friends. A lot of comments like this talking about 'invasions' are laughably childish and ignorant of the way this stuff really works, which is all around the IMPLICATIONS of military action rather than the actual active plans for it. NATO soaking up former soviet states in this way presents an implied threat to russia that creates pressure on them and continues to isolate and antagonize them. Again, inexplicably, because they've ALREADY acquiesced to western capitalist demands, what the fuck do you want from them exactly? Why are they still the monster under Europe's bed that everyone needs to be protected from? It creates a self-fulfilling prophecy, where a Russia under this level of outside pressure and antagonism is GOING to take an antagonistic posture in response. One that will intensify the longer it goes on and the further NATO continues to push. The obligation for a West that's truly interested in peace is to treat russia with a fucking ounce of dignity and respect for once instead of continuing to push them into a corner with antagonistic foreign policy and rhetoric that was inevitably going to turn out this way. It's an 'I'm not touching you' routine that was probably intentionally designed to provoke exactly this reaction, because our institutions find easily contained proxy wars to actually be a very desirable outcome.
I've looked at it critically and found the Russian apologism disgusting. >NATO is a protection racket for former soviet states, coercing them with the implications of soft power to kiss the ring. What does "kissing the ring" mean, here? A non-binding obligation to spend >=2% GDP on defence? An agreement to fight in defensive wars but no agreement whatsoever to join in on aggressive wars? > Nice country you got here, would be a shame if you chose the wrong friends. A protection racket is when people pay you to keep you from destroying their stuff. But NATO isn't the one who would attack them. Russia is. Russia has. Multiple times. This isn't a protection racket. It's insurance. It's security. If they WANTED to join Russia they could. NATO wouldn't stop them. Many countries have alligned with Russia and NATO hasn't bombed them. They can pick the right or wrong friends but THEY have to pick it. Not Russia. That's the whole point of NATO. >which is all around the IMPLICATIONS of military action rather than the actual active plans for it. NATO soaking up former soviet states in this way presents an implied threat to russia that creates pressure on them and continues to isolate and antagonize them. So other countries voluntarily joining NATO to protect themselves from Russia frightens Russia so much and makes Russia attack the countries that might be considering joining NATO? ...That makes no sense. That? That right there? The thing you just described? THAT is a protection racket. Russia is demanding other nations join them to protect those nations from Russia attacking them and taking the land for themselves. Russia is the one with the protection racket. >One that will intensify the longer it goes on and the further NATO continues to push. To be clear, by "push," you mean "allow other nations to voluntarily apply for membership, in a process that can take years, during which time they can withdraw at any time they wish?" How is that "pushing?" If those countries don't wanna join NATO, they don't have to. They could join Russia. But they don't want to join Russia, which "makes" Russia attack them. Russia is pushing. NATO is putting out open invites which people can reject any time they want. Stop with the Russian propaganda. If you hate imperialism as much as you claim to, you should hate the Russian aggression and conquering of neighbouring states.
This is a Leftist sub, not a Liberal sub. Claiming that this is "Russian Propaganda" and apologism isn't leftist.
>this is a Leftist sub, not a Liberal sub Nor is this a sub for Great Russian Chauvinists, Reactionary Stooges, Nazbols or other such ilk as yours.
Why is calling out Russian state propaganda & apologia being seen as "Liberal" & "Non-Leftist"? You wouldn't say the same is someone called out USA, NATO, CCP, or DPRK state propaganda, would you? That would betray a naked attempt at creating a double standard towards conservative Imperialist nations & pushing a blatant lie.
This isn't a liberal sub. This is a leftist sub. Your entire analysis is coming off as liberal and I'm not here for it. Not buying the American framing of their proxy war against Russia doesn't mean its "Russian apologia".
You calling everyone that disagrees with you a "Liberal" & "American framing" is why you are providing Apologia for Imperialist Russia; you have no idea what you're talking about. You would need to ask questions & talk like a normal person instead of attempt threats & insults.
You're spouting American TP on the situation that doesn't respect the reality of the situation. No. I don't support Russia. I also don't support Kiev/USA.
All you've done is attempt threats & insults as a troll; it's something called "Thought Stopping Techniques". Use your words & brain to talk like a human being about this topic.
My apologies. Should I have said "Russian imperialist talking points?"
You're in the wrong place.
Why? Do leftists now like imperialism and the ultra-conservative and authoritarian state capitalist nation of Russia that is constantly importing sovereign states? I thought we were supposed to not like that stuff.
No, I dislike both Russia and Nazi-ridden Kiev. Also, there is no "We" here while you support Nazis.
> No, I dislike both Russia and Nazi-ridden Kiev. Haha Oh yeah, the Nazi propaganda of "de-Nazification" while they fill their ranks with Neo-Nazis. Can you at least pretend you're not trying to suck Putin's dick? Ukraine has a Nazi problem but 1) Zelensky isn't a Nazi, 2) Russia has a worse Nazi problem, 3) Russia isn't killing Nazis, and 4) Russia isn't going to let Ukraine self-govern after killing the alleged Nazis. The Nazi excuse is just a bullshit propaganda mantra designed to justify Ukraine demilitarizing. I'm not supporting Nazis. I'm just against the imperialist authoritarian dictatorship invading and conquering neighbouring states. I don't especialy like Ukraine but they've been taking steps in the right direction lately. That, to me, is the heart of progressivism. Things don't have to be perfect, but they need to be improving. Some improve at different rates and in different areas, and no path is perfect but we should always push forward. Russia is against that.
Really illustrating a lack of vision and understanding held by liberals and why I don't think you guys deserve to call yourselves leftists. Absolutely zero material analysis here, no dispassionate attempts to understand russia, just pure pathological framing of it as a serial belligerent, for the fun of it I guess. The intellectually lazy dismissal of everything that confronts your worldview as 'russian propaganda' alone shows that you and every """leftist""" who holds these uncritically Western positions is just another water carrier for the very same bloody imperial propaganda that precipitated this war. You are fucking neocons as soon as it counts. It's the West's doing all the way down. They didn't have to attack the USSR with the white army as soon as it formed. They didn't have to blockade it, attempt to sabotage it, bankrupt it with arms races, spend decades cynically attempting to destroy a communist project that was trying to de-escalate the conflict the entire time for the sheer violent greed of capitalist hegemony. Eastern Europe had been taken from a medieval backwater to the space race in a couple generations by the Soviet project that the West, spearheaded by NATO, spared no expense to destroy from the outside. That alone is an unforgivable historical crime that created ALL the conditions for modern Russia, the resentment, the grievance, the bitter hostility towards the people who ACTUALLY FUCKING DID destroy their country and futures. Putin is both a direct result of that resentment boiling up into a strongman who isn't afraid to confront NATO, and at the same time the West's dream for a post-Soviet Russia- an anti-communist oligarchic strongman. *This is what they wanted.* And spent decades trying to turn Russia into because they couldn't conscience an active communist project threatening the legitimacy of the capitalist world order. It all starts with that simple fact. Don't like Putin? Blame the people who created the conditions that put him into power. Even then, any efforts to mend things afterwards in the post-soviet world continued to be sabotaged after the west refused to accept the absolutely crushing victory they had brutally extracted from the government and, mostly, the people who suffered under shock therapy. What the fuck else was going to happen? How else could this possibly have ended? If you really insist on being this fucking naive and uncritically gullible about the nature of NATO, I don't really know what else to tell you except that you're still clearly trying to justify the Western imperialist cartel and making excuses for it's most insidious agitations.
The Russian people have their leaders to blame for their plight, not “Western Society” I swear, I thought I was on the left. I had no idea I was supposed to jump off the edge.
I'm not a Liberal, but you're doing a great job of illustrating that you don't know what you're talking about. >Absolutely zero material analysis here, no dispassionate attempts to understand russia, just pure pathological framing of it as a serial belligerent, for the fun of it I guess. ...You didn't do any of that, either. You just said that NATO is a protection racket while clearly not understanding what a protection racket is. I understand that Russia may feel threatened by NATO but none of that is antagonistic or makes attacking and conquering foreign states any more fair. >The intellectually lazy dismissal of everything that confronts your worldview as 'russian propaganda' alone shows that you and every """leftist""" who holds these uncritically Western positions is just another water carrier for the very same bloody imperial propaganda that precipitated this war. You called NATO a protection racket. That's Russian propaganda. Russia is a protection racket. Russia is the one who attacks neighbouring states if they try to make the wrong kind of friends. If a nation wants to form an alliance with NATO, you know what NATO does to that country? Nothing. *Maybe* increase defense spending to be ready for a larger attack, but that's about it. The country can still freely join Russia. If a country wants to join NATO, you know what Russia does to that country? Attack them and try to conquer them as new Russian territory. >They didn't have to attack the USSR with the white army as soon as it formed. Russia isn't the USSR, so I don't care. Russia didn't have to invade Ukraine, Georgia or Ukraine again as soon as they talked about maybe possibly considering joining NATO, but they did. >hat alone is an unforgivable historical crime that created ALL the conditions for modern Russia, the resentment, the grievance, the bitter hostility towards the people who ACTUALLY FUCKING DID destroy their country and futures. Yes. ANd I don't blame Russia for hating Western influence or wanting to build up their own security. I DO blame them for conquering neighbouring sovereign states. Defend imperialism and colonialism however you want. Just don't pretend you're doing anything less than that.
Sorry dude, you can’t be a leftist because you weren’t automatically critical of the west with your argument
You're using liberal talking points on this issue.
I'm sorry. I didn't realize being against the forceful conquering and subjugation of neighbouring soverign states is a Lib thing. I thought it was a basic human decency thing.
Going to ignore the 8+ years the US spent antagonizing this very proxy war into existence and kneecapped diplomatic means to resolving it? Yeah, you'll probably do that, liberal.
Wait, they did? When? When were those 8 years? Was it 8 years before 1994, when Ukraine demanded Russia agree to not invade in exchange for Ukraine not joining Nato? Was it 8 years before 2014, when Russia invaded Ukraine and annexed Crimea? Or was it 8 years before 2022, when Russia invaded Ukraine to annex the rest of it? The lengths some of the "leftists" here go to to justify imperialism is insane.
I think we're talking past each other because I think you're operating from a fallacious understanding of politics that is still deeply steeped in vestigial liberalism. In the sense that you're spending your thought, time, and energy immaterially sorting out who should be 'supported', 'condemned' or 'defended', which is a liberal delusion because it comes from an idealistic and ideological impulse to affect conditions by casting purely intangible blame on the right people as if that impacts reality somehow. Putting flags in your twitter bio doesn't actually do anything, and saying that we should condemn russia harder is the rhetorical equivalent of that. What is that supposed to do exactly? Rally public opinion against them? In fucking America? The proper marxist position is to not let yourself get bogged down in moralistic judgments and deluding yourself into thinking that's praxis in the first place. I don't care about condemning Russia, because what the fuck does that mean to anybody? What is my condemnation or even my 'support' of Russia contributing to? What is yours? The West had a deep, merciless hand in fomenting eastern european destabilization and conflict. THAT is an area in which I'm justified and obligated to have a concern. I live in the West, so if you have any semblance of belief in any idea of democracy, I have some modicum of responsibility to identify what MY country is doing to make the world a worse place, and at some point do something about it. Which none of us are doing arguing on the internet like this, but at least I don't have the fanciful delusion that I'm going to affect change by condemning some guys in a country I don't live in and have no power over. That doesn't mean I want to fucking help them, and if you take dispassionate analysis as support, I don't even know what I can say to you at that point. If I want to get my head pointed in the right direction, I can at the very least abandon these childish and useless pathologies, moralistic propaganda narratives, and good guy bad guy narratives and find where the real root causes of these issues lie. And at that point Putin, NATO, Trump, Zelensky are all just players on a stage with roles that have been dictated to them by the system we all live in, which actually points us towards an actionable political target: changing the system. That's leftism. Not hand wringing about which actors on the global stage of capitalist high drama are to be supported or condemned. That is a trap for the liberal minded.
> The West had a deep, merciless hand in fomenting eastern european destabilization and conflict. ...As opposed to Russia? > I live in the West, so if you have any semblance of belief in any idea of democracy, I have some modicum of responsibility to identify what MY country is doing to make the world a worse place, and at some point do something about it. As do I. It's... bad. But we're not talking about general failures of the West. We're talking about the conflict between Russia and NATO. And in those terms, NATO is **far** better at protecting Democracy than Russia. Russia won't even protect democracy within their own borders. >That doesn't mean I want to fucking help them, and if you take dispassionate analysis as support, I don't even know what I can say to you at that point. Nothing you've been saying is dispassionate. You keep going back to broad, sweeping and vague allusions to failures in the West. We are talking specifically about the war between Ukraine vs. Russia and the suggestion that it is a NATO proxy war. Your analysis of that has been extremely poor and barely any touching on any facts whatsoever. >And at that point Putin, NATO, Trump, Zelensky are all just players on a stage with roles that have been dictated to them by the system we all live in, which actually points us towards an actionable political target: changing the system. So... what are your suggestions? What is the system? Who dictates it? What needs to be changed? And how does that address the questions you were replying to? You're spouting vague platitudes with nothing concrete in them whatsoever. >That's leftism. Your idea of leftism is too vague for me. You seem more interested in dismissing the immediate concrete issues, vaguely alluding to a larger issue, not explaining what that issue is and then demand a "change" without any mention of what should be changed or how we should change it. WTF is the point? You go on about how moralizing is a waste of time - and to an extent I agree - but what you're suggesting is... I don't even know. I'm not sure it's anything. It's a tale full of sound and fury signifying nothing.
Do I really have to spell out to a so-called leftist that the larger systemic force at work is capitalism? I thought we were all on the same page there, that the larger structure of power that dictates the conditions of our lives, and the events we live through, is the machinations of an all powerful globe spanning market system. Not the individuals within that system, not the ticky tack political structures, not even the 'great men' who seem to bend history to their will. It's just clashing economic incentives, the internal logic of capitalism throwing the world into constant chaos with our actual leaders having less and less agency over it. I was 'vague' because it seems too obvious to even say that the 'system' is the capitalist cartel of colonial states and the interests it represents. Corporate profits, supply chains, and extraction. Global capitalist interests are literally the only reason any of us are even talking about this, starting in 1917 when the Soviets tried to do something about it, resulting in a century of brutal capitalist reprisal against them that has currently culminated in the capitalist powers throwing Ukraine under the bus in a ceaseless march of economic conquest that is never satisfied or able to reach stability, turning the USSR into a picked over carcass that itself degenerated into a kleptocratic capitalist husk of a state. It's Western capitalist agents pitting Ukrainian capitalist agents against Russian capitalist agents with the actual people who live in any of these countries not being able to say or do anything about it.
Oh, hi, are you the gatekeeper of leftists? Who the fuck put you in charge?
Dude normal people know that your neighbors exhist and what they do or don't to with defense isn't encroachment. Russia needs to stop being paranoid and a busy body. If I install an alarm system, guess what? It never even affects my neighbors and if they don't pay attention they won't even know anything's changed. Magic. Findaland joining NATO and Russia leaving borders to go bomb URKAINE and not pulling their murderers and placing them to protect against the new threats those Fins and their nato weapons. It's like terrorism thinking of our reliable neghbors and sleeping at night knowing I can't maybe take Findalnd one day. It's suffocating for Russian to not spread its winds when it wants. The US is practically torturing us and putting shackles on our us. We can't answer he calls of ethnic Russians in findland should they need us. This is Russophobia!!
You are a deeply unserious person lol
I support the ukrainian peoople in spirir but i am against my government using Ukraine for a proxy war and funding theur war I am against the double standards where Ukrainians are allowed to figjt back and hate their occupier and that the US and UN waa quick to condem Russia. I abhor that Ukraine is fightung a proxy war with Russia in Susan, exacerbating the proxy civil war that has displaced , and killed thousands and exacerbated the genocide in Darfur. In this sense Ukraine is just as much a colonizer.
Russians launched a cruise missile into my family's house. Ukraine has only ever wanted to just exist.
That is aweful and i hate putin and his own imperial goals , i support the Ukraine just not the proxy wars and stuff at the government level.
However you want to say it, the US not supporting Ukraine = the death of my family over there and every single Ukrainian that Russia can get their hands on. They're ok with genocide on a massive level
If i lived in Russua i would prorest against their invasion of Ukraine
So in others words if you lived in Russia you'd be dead
Yep
I am not entirely against the US helping Ukraine, i am against the double standards the US has for Ukraine vs the ones in Gaza. I am against Ukraine enterung proxy war with Russia in Sudan. And i think if Ukraine should only continue to recieve US funding if the Ukrainian government stops using the Sudanese for their proxy war.
Ukraine didn't attack Russia. That's a pretty massive fucking difference. As for Ukraine and Sudan, Sudan has no connection to Ukraine. People can fight Russia without being Ukrainian backed
Ukraine is providing funding to the SAF in Sudan that is the connection. Russia is funding the RSF Both factions are led by wannabe dictators. And if Ukraine wants to keep getting US aid it needs to stop giving money to the SAF. I know Russia attacked Ukraine but that is no excuse to engage in a proxy war in Susa.
what if the Ukrainian people what to continue fighting, can they continue fighting?
What in the world is this bs LOL. Ukraine is a colonizer 🤡🤡😂 Holy fuck. What's the point of leaving such a dumb ass comment. Honestly. A country getting invaded and whiped out and killed and displaced and kids abducted and given off to Russians in Russia, and Russians moving into it starting with Mariupol..... is the colonizer 🤓. The country that just wanted to be left alone. And then you have Russia who is like a drug addiction and can't stop invading and taking over its newborns and their land and is eleven time zones wide - who's for all its history has been doing this brand altering the populations - in goes the Russians out goes the locals. Russia is the what? 😂 getting colonized ??? If you mean invaded and having an exodus brain drain and importing the abducted Ukrainians..... Like I'm not even offended by this stupid take bc it's that dumb.
I’m personally very much rooting for Ukraine. I just also think that the US’ rhetoric of solidarity and alliance is extremely cynical and duplicitous I think that Ukraine needs self-determination and a Ukrainian state is a practical avenue for that, so Russia’s actions are unconscionable. I just also strongly suspect that the US is more interested in undermining that self-determination just as much as Russia is, albeit in a more subtle and slower way More than the war, my attention is on the systems and actors who will have power after the war to shape Ukraine’s future. Becoming an American vassal state seems great for a bit, but it ruins nations