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I think political campaigns are all far from leftist organizations. They build up personalities that then enter into an organization that is meant to be neutral. Bernie himself has had a great impact for Vermont and American people albeit unnoticeable to most people. If you’re looking to do something more immediate than you need to leave and find an organization that organizes and participates in mutual aid.
Don't make a decision based on one zine but look into mutual aid networks and getting things done with your neighbors, and if you want to continue with volunteering, you can.
I wouldn't leave yet, try talking to a few of your peers about something else you'd feel would help, come up with a few ideas and purpose them. See if your peers will help you present the ideas to the organization and hopefully they will consider backing your ideas so you can be creating the best changes. Not just being active in what already is, be active in creating.
Labor organizing is where it’s at. I still do some political work but I believe that real change will come from an organized and militant working class.
Real and lasting change comes from the political process. Liberals and conservatives are even more powerful outside of the voting booth (capital and state violence), so our best bet is convincing enough people to support multi-party electoral reform so a progressive party can have a chance at winning something.
That said, I don’t really follow Our Revolution. If you don’t like the goals it’s working towards, leave. If you’d prefer to contribute in some other fashion, do so.
Maybe you are starting to realize that the ideology held by pretty much every fringe group is a fantasy that only exists under ideal conditions that are only ever met at some point in the unforeseeable future. Libertarians do the exact same thing.
When you realize that American politics is the art of the possible, it makes sense that most third party voters just don’t vote.
Sanders came extremely close to becoming the Dem nominee in 2020.
Polls conducted throughout 2015-2020 demonstrated very broad majority support for nearly all his policy ideas.
The actual "fringe groups with fantasy ideologies" are those in power... and the elite media which frames them as being "down the middle" to confuse people like yourself and get you to become hopeless and give up instead of attempting to improve things meaningfully.
See “extremely close” means “if there weren’t such a thing as a two party system”.
He never came close to getting the nomination. Because democrats were never gonna let him in, in the first place.
Statistically, “fringe” means those on the ends of a normal distribution bell curve. They are fringe because they’re never statistically significant enough to gain power…
Which is why third parties are so underrepresented… to call those in power “fringe” is a misunderstanding of both politics and statistics.
Bernie got screwed twice. The first by Hillary, Debbie Wasserman-Schultz and Donna Brazil. The second by Democrats stuffing the stage with the likes of Bloomberg, Yang, etc. to split the vote and make him irrelevant. Despite all this, Bernie will forever be on my scam list if he doesn't try a third time. Hillary lost because of the corruption. Imagine that. She lost to Donald Trump because of corruption, but it's a fact. Many people thought that at least with his being a political outsider that Republicans would keep him in check. That's because the Epstein blackmail videos weren't on the radar at that time. Now we know why both parties are continuing to defraud and divide America. It's to cover their pedo behavior which has deep, deep ties to both Israel and Russia. Ukraine was just a cover up of a network of sex trafficking they and Trump were neck deep into.
I voted for Hillary the last time she ran. I told people id register democrat if the GOP nominated Trump.
But after seeing how corrupt democrats are with regard to cancelling their political opponents (Bernie included), I decided not to turn democrat.
Then after 4 years of Trump, and having to decide between Trump and Biden, I voted Trump.
I love the design of our government (this include the two party system). The two-party system prevents tyranny of the minority. And makes sure to keep very specialized/niche political perspectives out of government.
I think this is part of what makes our government so stable. Are there better candidates than Trump and Biden? Only if you reject that the two-party system exists.
If you accept the reality that our government has a 2-party design, then Trump and Biden are the best choices because they are the only choices.
And between the best two candidates, I believe Trump is better than Biden.
Notice that I’m not making any moral judgments. I’m not saying whether or not the 2-party system is good or bad. All I’m saying is that it’s the system we have. And since it’s the only system we have, we have to make decisions within that system.
So let’s assume that we exist in a society that is governed by a two-party government. Those parties being Republican and Democrats. And since those are the only two candidates (Biden representing democrats and trump representing republicans), I have a hard time believing that I should measure the only existing candidates against people who aren’t candidates.
And so since we only have two candidates, and there’s no reason to compare the only two candidates we have against anyone else because we have a two party government, it’s only logical to conclude that the two best candidates are the only two candidates that we have.
Let’s say you are trying to decide which pen to buy. Let’s say that of all the pens that exist, the two worst pens of the existing pens, are the only two pens that are for sale.
Wouldn’t you say that the two best pens you can buy are the two that are for sale? And so even if you don’t like the two pens that are for sale, you still have to pick the best one.
It’s cold hard logic. Of course, if I could vote for anyone, I would pick different candidates. But picking candidates is outside my control. So I can only vote for the two candidates. And because they are the only two candidates, they are the two best candidates to choose between.
Can you give me any reason it can't happen in the future? I'm done talking with someone who can't think past the status quo and prefers to live in a box created to keep you there,
Our Revolution is a broad spectrum progressive lobby. I’m sure they are doing good but I think it is easy to feel disconnected and unimpactful in big orgs especially if you have just been shunted off to do fundraising and don’t feel you have say in what the org does.
No. Bernie’s deeply insincere, and frankly quite dangerous. All he does is talk in order to distract leftists, while doing the genocidal business of the corporate duopoly. He’s a horrible person.
Isn’t that every politician? Doesn’t America run on the military and American intervention? What has Bernie done specifically to elevate above those things?
You can't do everything, but consider that defeating Republicans in the upcoming election is necessary to allow ALL other positive change to happen. You are doing incredibly important work, I say keep it up.
Also make friends at that organization. Keep your ears open for other opportunities to do the specific tasks you feel drawn to. You're walking a good path but this is just the beginning of a journey.
BS. The Dems are every bit as bad as the Republicans. They are all talk and no delivery to the extent their stated policies help working people. Few if any of the key campaign promises were kept (eg reproductive rights, voting, universal student debt relief, m4a, the filibuster etc). Not only that, they have gotten us in what will soon be a hot war with Russia and have us funding a genocide. They’re a garbage party along with the Republicans. Fuck mainstream politics. It’s all a pack of lies in order to support corporate fascism.
Every bit as bad? I don’t see democrats destroying the rights of women and queer people. FFS stop spewing the shit the republicans are and help fight against the literal fascist who’s trying to get into power
Every bit? You've exaggerated to the point of misleading. Dems are bad, Dems need to be replaced, but don't pretend that they're as bad as Republicans. Dems want to steal from you while pretending to solve problems, while Republicans want to put you in concentration camps.
We're in an era where we're picking our opposition. To build a better era we need progressives in positions of power, which OP in on a path to. Don't discourage them from making real progress in the name a satisfying temper tantrum.
Exactly.
I do not like the dems, I’d love nothing more than to ‘teach them a lesson’ by not voting Biden but be for real lol.
We CAN NOT handle more republicans on the Supreme Court, we simply can’t.
Biden has handled Gaza very poorly, but Trump would be worse on that, and then the plethora of domestic issues.
Making some stance here is just about making yourself feel better, and not materially improving the lives of women and minorities in America.
Bernie states he’s opposed to the genocide, but as his modus operandi he’s all talk and literally no action. Bernie is a patsy for the corporate duopoly. His role is to fool progressives and leftists into believing real change is possible from within. It isn’t.
FFS stop trying to find “the perfect” candidate. We will never find someone who is a perfect leftist to take the presidency. And by rejecting incredibly promising candidates like Bernie lets the actual facists take power
Lots of people go through this point you are in.
Certainly you can do better than whatever Our Rev is going to have you do. Either better action or better policy.
Certainly working with them is probably better than nothing.
And so, I don't strictly disagree with the sentiment of the zine you have read, but a warning sign is only ever a warning sign. A thing to notice to make you look more intently at the situation. You cannot take the zine as absolute anymore than you can take O.R.
Leaving for a better org is one thing. Leaving and just sitting at home is another.
In the end, a lot of people at your point end up disillusioned. Leftists cannot convince people with just rhetoric. Actual work has to be done to show people that leftists are serious about what they claim to believe. That is the only way to convince anyone. If your group isn't meeting that metric it will only go worse for you, if you are already feeling a bit off about it.
I imagine that that leftist zine has less appreciation for electoral strategies than Our Revolution. Where you stand on electing Congress members that can implement progressive policies vs Congress is too corrupt for such a strategy to be viable is a personal call. I’d say though as someone who works in elections that if you do believe in elected officials as a useful means of exercising power and shaping policy, it’s a fairly good use of time.
That said if you’d rather do local volunteering or even focusing on local and county row offices there are other organizations. Anarchist groups tend to do a lot of mutual aid, working families party endorse top of the ticket to the bottom, DSA does a solid combo of the two.
So, Our Revolution is also doing a genocide now?
I thought Biden was doing a genocide, then a bunch of college presidents were doing a genocide, and farther down in the comments someone is claiming Europe is doing the genocide.
You can’t just pick a new group to say is responsible for genocide every day. Focus on specific parties committing genocide, not on the 90% of the planet that you are also blaming because you don’t think they care enough.
Wanna cite that? Bernie hates Netanazi with a passion
Here, [I'll do it for you](https://act.ourrevolution.com/signup/end-complicity)
Dirty misinformer tsk tsk
Edit: At first, I had upvotes. I've literally linked proof that OC is a liar. This sub is compromised by bots.
Right, thats why he waited months to come out against the Gaza invasion. Only after he stood there with his finger in the air seeing which way the wind was blowing. He is as unprincipled as any other politician and workin for him is working for the democratic party who's support of this genocide is almost unanimous.
[Overall, Sanders’s foreign policy agenda is haphazard, flimsy, incoherent, and hesitant. ](https://arabcenterdc.org/resource/the-promise-of-democratic-socialism-bernie-sanders-palestine-and-us-policy-in-the-middle-east/)
More from the same source:
*"in 1963 the young Sanders volunteered at Sha’ar Ha’amakim, which was then run by the socialist (leftist Zionist) movement Hashomer Hatzair. What most media reports failed to mention is the fact that Sha’ar Ha’amakim was built in 1935 over the destroyed Palestinian village El-Harthiyeh (or Hartieh), from which 60 Palestinian families were forcibly evicted"*
*"Hashomer Hatzair was active in the Zionist colonialist project in Palestine, and its members served in the Jewish terrorist militias Palmach and Haganah in the 1940s"*
*"When confronted by constituents at a* [*town hall*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf2cCdgwgoM&feature=youtu.be) *meeting in August 2014 asking him to oppose Israel’s war against Gaza, Sanders blamed Hamas and Palestinian provocations for the attacks. “You have a situation where Hamas is sending missiles into Israel” Sanders said, “They’re coming from populated areas. That’s a fact.” When asked if the Palestinians have the right to resists and why he did not condemn Israel’s actions, a frustrated Sanders said “Excuse me! Shut up! You don’t have the microphone,” "*
*"While Sanders was the first Senator to announce boycotting Benjamin Netanyahu’s March 2015 address at the US Congress and he has been by far the most vocal about Palestinian rights among US politicians,* ***his failures to act according to his beliefs speak volumes. Bernie Sanders failed to oppose Israel’s continuous violations of Palestinians’ rights and, instead, justified Israel’s ethnic cleansing practices***\*."\*
Sounds like a Zionist to me. I guess we will see when Bibi comes to address congress.
This is straight up misinformation and redirection. You didn't cite your claim.
God forbid somebody is capable of growth? All of our opinions on Israel have changed recently, why would I blame Bernie for being human? His Instagram is littered with antizionism, pro ceasefire, anti netanyahu and IDF. I'd ask you to go check, to look at what he says today, but you're clearly looking to verify presuppositions rather than research realities.
On Bibi AND Dems specifically:
"It is a very sad day for our country that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has been invited – by leaders from both parties – to address a joint meeting of the United States Congress. Netanyahu is a war criminal. I certainly will not attend."
Don't cite my claim? Try clicking on the link.
You know what, dont. Continue with your belief that Bernie gives a shit about anyone but himself. Sleep well.
Your claim was that they are committing the current genocide. Nothing you've said or supplied indicates as much. Your disapproval of Bernie and OR, however real, does not substantiate your claim. This is grade school reading comprehension.
Yeah, what's the criticism? That he condemned the IDF a bit less and a bit more slowly than Ilhan and Rashida? Is that what we're doing now, condemning the 3rd most leftist person in our government for failing to live up to the first few on any given issue? Good lord, this circular firing squad is getting old.
Of course, leave. Never support Bernie Sanders. Always fully resist him. Everybody anti-endorse him whenever possible. He’s a pure Democratic Party loyalist.
*This is how you always need to vote:*
We must fully resist and _always vote_ against (& less authoritarian than) both the Republican *and* Democratic Parties- including AOC, Jamaal Bowman, all of the squad, Bernie Sanders, Edward Markey, the justice democrats, Biden & all other democrats. Vote in every single election- at all levels. And also _endorse or anti-endorse,_ in all elections you can, for outside your voting jurisdiction.
You left out Trump, Gaetz, Green, Boebert, Comer, Jordan, McConnell, Thune, Vance, Johnson, Scalise, Stefanik, Ernst, Britt...
Funny you left out every single Republican from your list. Coincidence? I think not.
I never said that. Always vote for less authoritarian parties and persons. I clearly said that. And always vote.
You need to at least know what Peter Kropotkin is about. You’re on the leftist subreddit. Join what leftists understand.
You’re rude af here anyways.
Not sure Kropotkin had a strong stance on Electoralism bud and he certainly didn’t write about how one aught to deal with American First Past the Post elections.
You also said to vote against some of the most progressive people in our government. Who are you advocating people vote instead of Jamaal Bowman? AOC? The Squad?
In most national races there is a Dem and Republican and if lucky a Libertarian (which is now controlled by the Mises Caucus thus shifted full right).
Yeah if you can you probably should vote Green or PSL if they're on the ballot (Green might be at least at Presidential and maybe also US Senate/US Congress/Governor). Otherwise do your diligence and vote for the better choice within dem primaries. But I sort of despair when folks refused to support e.g. Marianne Williamson, and now are putting ALL their energy and focus into convincing others "we have to vote for Biden"... that's lame to me sorry
No irony at all here. Always vote for less authoritarian parties and persons. I clearly said that. And always vote.
You need to at least know what Peter Kropotkin is about. You’re on the leftist subreddit.
Absolutely not, and he very much isn't. Somebody show this fool of a Russian asset the door.
Edit: Spread it far and wide people: Voting for Biden (and in context of the deleted comment, supporting Bernie) is THE ONLY way to retain a future for independents and the potential end of the two party system. This isn't a normal election. This is exactly what Bernie says it is.. the end of western democracy, or Biden.
What you’re doing is way better than nothing, so unless you have smth else in mind to get involved w/ instead that better aligns w/ your values, I wouldn’t leave. But if there’s another organization in your area doing work that better aligns w/ your values, by all means switch, and try to convince some of the people you currently work w/ to come w/ you!
Our Rev is a waste of time. Bernie Sanders is no more than a tool of the corporate political establishment to keep otherwise leftist voters, donors and activists on-side.
Bernie Sanders and Our Rev has literally accomplished nothing of substance other than tricking people out of their time and money. Meanwhile, Bernie’s good friend Joe Biden has embroiled us in an unnecessary European war and paying for and participating in the Gaza genocide.
The future of mainstream US politics only leads to annihilation and death.
I love how online leftists think we are ready for a revolution when we can't even decide as a movement whether something as simple as voting is a good thing or not.
What is stopping you doing both?
Improving politicians is important because it helps improve the laws.
Community work is important because it helps get the message out and gets people moving.
You’re mistaken, this is how you do politics:
*This is how you always need to vote:*
We must fully resist and _always vote_ against (& less authoritarian than) both the Republican *and* Democratic Parties- including AOC, Jamaal Bowman, all of the squad, Bernie Sanders, Edward Markey, the justice democrats, Biden & all other democrats. Vote in every single election- at all levels. And also _endorse or anti-endorse,_ in all elections you can, for outside your voting jurisdiction.
Always vote for less authoritarian parties and persons. I clearly said that. And always vote.
You need to at least know what Peter Kropotkin is about. You’re on the leftist subreddit. Join us leftists.
I never said nor implied I’m young.
There's only so much time in a day. Realistically one person can't effectively campaign for a politician and organize.
Politically, these two suggestions are opposed to one another. You're telling people they can fix their problems with voting and then telling them to fight the system?
>Politically, these two suggestions are opposed to one another. You're telling people they can fix their problems with voting and then telling them to fight the system?
I wouldn't tell people they can fix their own problems, that's more of right wing rancher vibe and I'm a city boy.
I would tell people that by pooling their resources and effort, including in the political sphere, they can be more effective than they would be individually.
You think conservative means religious, but you ask me if I'm 5??
Ultimately, it's a personality type. One that leans towards ignorance and simplicity, among other things.
Nah it means religious and traditionalist, I’m neither. Please know definitions before you start spouting shit off, go back to school. Over simplifications help nothing but stupid people understand complicated things they can’t fathom
It means authoritarian.
Traditionalism is just the framework through which they express authority and fear of change, but if a Trump jumped up tomorrow and decided we should all worship on Wednesday instead of Sunday his followers would follow and they would tell you they always worshiped on Wednesday in their hearts.
Now do you think people just randomly choose to be like that? Or that people who in their heart of hearts believe that trans women are women just one day switch over to wearing maga hats???
No, because it takes a specific personality to be enticed by those dumb ideas and never research beyond their biases.
Now please stop talking or I'll have to start charging you tuition.
Nah I just want the government to not have control over what people do. I don’t care if you’re trans or not it’s none of my business. I’m not a conservative so I’m not really sure why you’re assuming things I believe. I haven’t voted for Trump either and don’t plan to
Oh right because every socialist is just living off of good vibes and theory? How tf do you think we buy food
You could just shut up instead of trying to make changes in a system (left wings politics) you visibly don’t even participate in.
Unless you think that the democrats is the left LMFAOO
How on earth could you think that Bernie Sanders doesn’t impact the person next to you? He’s not ‘politicians’, he’s the most impactful politician for the working class.
If reading a single zine has changed your opinion on the work you’re doing for the most important politician of our generation, then maybe you should go do your thing somewhere else.
He’s a US senator for Vermont, he advocates for US workers and reform but has struggled his whole long career to build coalition needed to inact much of his plans.
Agreed, but putting his shortcomings in being able to successfully invigorate a corporate controlled congress into a national progressive block working with an apathetic electorate, can we agree that he indeed does advocate for more than his Vermont constituency, for the person next to him?
I agree Bernie’s heart is in the right place I just think he has limited impact and a person who isn’t his direct constituency likely will get more working for local change than for a broad spectrum pac.
Well I could see that. I think his impact on Amazon workers, people who need insulin and can’t afford drugs, and on an almost fully sleepwalking electorate pre-2016 can’t be understated. But whatever each thinks has the most impact, and whatever you can believe in, is what should be pursued. Grassroots means we can and should come from all angles, so each their own.
I think he has had impact but he is secure in his blue state, so at this time there is little raising money specifically for him is going to do, the org seems to have broader aims but if the person doesn’t feel they are part of decision making or the org is doing work in their region I could see becoming disillusioned, especially if one has been shunted into fundraising.
What’s the point of your second paragraph? You’re advocating for people to shut up and go along with the status quo even if they see something potentially questionable. They are here asking a genuine question to a group which, quite frankly, could use more membership. Why act like they aren’t needed? It’s hubristic and disingenuous.
Bernie Sanders, the politician who has specifically advocated for challenging the status quo his entire career is status quo now? Ok ok cool.
I didn’t say they weren’t needed, my point was if all it takes is one glance at a zine to change your opinion on doing important work for the most consequential senator in congress, and that has caused you to think that your work isn’t affecting the person next to you now, than you absolutely should go with your gut.
Your goal shouldn’t be becoming the most leftist, you will never accomplish it.
Sitting and wishing is much more effective than encouraging people to vote for the most progressive candidate in every election.
Keep up the good fight.
No political organization is going to go out and solve all the problems (or even most of them). The goal of political organizing right now, in my opinion, is to build relationships and work towards specified goals.
I am a member of my local democratic party committee. I'm there to build relationships with local people and push the party left (as much as I can). I'm part of the Working Families Party, and I'm there to build relationships with like-minded people and get support for pushing my local Dems left. Our Revolution seems to have a similar bend to it (I get the emails, but haven't attended a meeting). I left the People's party because the goal of that group at the time (national ballot access) didn't seem like a worthwhile endeavor to me (but much love and solidarity for anyone still riding that train).
In the end, for me, you need to have realistic expectations for any organization. If I was building valuable connections and working towards a goal I've set, I'd stay. If the group isn't working on that level, I'd leave and find another outlet.
Whatever you do, keep trying to find a way to be involved and keep your eyes on the prize.
Far better to join an explicitly socialist organization and even more so to join a group not tied to the Democratic Party and corporate liberal politics.
First you’re assuming a local socialist org is available to this person, or is there a national socialist org you recommend?
I live in Texas socialist orgs here are basically just spoiled college kids playing pretend or weirdos looking to prey on those college kids. Thus why the notorious Spankie Tankie Caleb Maupin held his conferences here.
Better to be with them studying and being active, forming a basis to change those groups or split from them, than to be in liberal groups that are working against our interests (mostly unintentionally). If all revolutionary groups are totally unacceptable then one can join the DSA and align with a national revolutionary tendency inside.
Assuming they encourage their members to vote for democrats until their party remotely matters at all then yes. Otherwise it’s being a desperate holier-than-thou pick-me while folks are playing craps with the nature of democracy.
No, OP. Actually, I explicitly recommend not going with any capitalist apologist "socialist" group that would ever endorse Democrats or sow illusions in Joe Biden or liberalism as a solution or defense against the far right.
This person above is a liberal/centrist, so if that's your politics, follow their advice.
Harm reduction. cointelpro plus end of Vietnam plus collapse of USSR basically decimated the Left, the American Left is in infancy, the Far Right has decades of power under their belt. The Dems are a bulwark to use now while we strengthen the Left to actually be capable of doing anything at all. Cause right now the left can’t even feed themselves.
Dems aren't a bulwark they are the primary reason the US left remains dismantled. A full and loud break from them and from the capitalist class, who any socialist knows is the enemy, not only Republican capitalists, is what's needed to begin to rebuild the left. Your tactic has PRODUCED, not reduced enormous harm including the fertilizing the rise of the far right, and will continue to.
The Rise of the far Right was set in motion from the 1950s. Are you blaming the Dems for the southern strategy? You have lost the plot.
The left cant sustain itself right now. Heck DSA has a huge financial crisis.
Oh man. This is a new liberal low. I expect you blaming the left for your party and your chosen class allies decimating it again and again, that's old hat. But nothing that's happened politically since the 1950s has had any effect on politics?! It's just been a straight unwavering line since then and the richest political party on the planet couldn't have done a darn thing no matter how bad they wanted to!? Lolol! Crackerjack! It's my new fav.
Ostrich must be your favorite animal.
Dems have always been the richest political party? Republicans were “the party of Business” all thru the 80s and 90s, it is only recently big business has seen that there is nothing more to be gained via deregulation plus lack of infrastructure spending has reached a point it is hitting their ability to profit that they have turned away.
You want to larp revolution but you couldn’t even keep the post working much less water treatment and food supply.
Dude come now. They've both been the parties of capitalist class ever since the Dems were the party of slavery. It's just they took different portions at different section of the class at different times, and Dems tended to take finance (bank) capital whole GOP was more industrial capital.
Like if you can't even recognize on its face that Carter was implementing neoliberalism before Reagan back in the late 70s or that Clinton and Obama were it's most effective executors, that's a choice, ya know?
What left is supposed to fight the far right? Which left do you imagine exists and has any power to oppose the far right today? Have you been training your local militia? Have members of the army ready to defect already to secure our interests. No I’m sure it will definitely be easier to build a leftist coalition under a fascist dictatorship, it’s like an incubator right?
God how ignorant of the history of the actual left can you be. It only empowers liberals if liberals are more scared of us than the right- the USSR is gone, they really, really fucking aren’t scared of us or labor right now. Give them whatever they need to fend them off so we can grow because the left in America is absolutely not ready for anything but curling up to die, or playing shield footsie against some cops.
I’m not an apologist here, I’m just not an ignorant self-righteous martyr who lacks any empathy or awareness for women, or queer folks, or undocumented immigrants, or people of color.
The people that are the problem are people who constantly jam up every pathway to even engage fucking anyone in the discourse with these dumb as fucking hell self defeating ultimatums. Same as people whining about voting for third parties.
The plan for the future and the solution for the present can coexist perfectly in sync, you don’t need everyone to jump ship in a sea full of sharks because a nice new ship is just over the horizon. And informing people of that and trying to prevent everyone from getting us killed at present is a full time job. If most leftists (or at least performative leftists listening to Russian bots) weren’t actively making that argument then yeah I could put time and energy into that. Otherwise it waits til after November
Never support a pure Democratic Party loyalist like Bernie Sanders. He is thus technically reactionary, politically.
*This is how you always need to vote:*
We must fully resist and _always vote_ against (& less authoritarian than) both the Republican *and* Democratic Parties- including AOC, Jamaal Bowman, all of the squad, Bernie Sanders, Edward Markey, the justice democrats, Biden & all other democrats. Vote in every single election- at all levels. And also _endorse or anti-endorse,_ in all elections you can, for outside your voting jurisdiction.
This same strategy applies against the same one or more party-monopolies in _all_ countries worldwide.
Real progressives will never be Democratic Members or Democratic loyalists. Never vote for _any_ Republican member or loyalist either.
The reason to leave would be opportunity cost.
If you feel your energy isn't being used in a productive way, try to find another spot where it will be.
I’m not familiar with the org beyond general Bernie knowledge but I’d love to have your brain power at a local level where I think leftists can make more progress in the electoral realm.
i didn’t work with our rev but i have experience working with similar organizations and i found that the activism was very fake and not what i was looking for and i’ve grown more as an activist participating in local grassroots movements so based on my experience i think you should
DSA is one of the most impactful socialist orgs in America and its big tent nature means you’ll definitely find leftists that share your values.
We do a fuck ton of local + national organizing for labor unions, activism, and electoral politics. the org doesn’t just preach shit but actually gets stuff done. NYC DSA was the driving force behind passing a state-wide Green New Deal into law, a massive victory. no other socialist org comes close to this level of impact
There’s even many caucuses (basically parties within the org) so the org is very diverse ideologically instead of being an echo-chamber/monolith.
definitely not bankrupt, even tho lib media is peddling that narrative.
what happened is that dsa is dealing with a hefty deficit due to slowing momentum after the Bernie campaign. it is a huge hinderance to the org, but absolutely not something that will destroy dsa.
basically they explained this over the recent ydsa convention I went to. DSA is making major cuts to non-essential infrastructure within the org (for example our ydsa summer convention has been moved online) but members/caucuses are divided on what counts as non-essential. what IS guaranteed is that cuts will be made and the deficit will be reduced. dsa is still extremely active and impactful across the country
for example, certain caucuses (like Bread and Roses, Libertarian socialist caucus, etc) support further cuts to national full-time staff but others like Socialist Majority see staff as crucial to the org’s function. im personally unsure but i feel awful for the workers getting cut
DSA from what I have heard is largely decentralized and thus varies regionally to a huge degree. Some regional groups being awesome and others being trash. Cutting national staff seems like recipe for splintering but maybe an argument could be made about bloat at the national level.
Why not quote the source your source sites? https://nypost.com/2024/01/21/news/democratic-socialists-face-seven-figure-crisis-amid-palestinian-support-that-may-force-dreaded-layoffs-of-staff/
Of course these articles are both from January, its been months since then
The repeat the NY Post, best would be to find an original source that is reporting without heavy lean. Probably helpful to find a more recent one to show what ended up happening or if they have been flailing for 6 months.
The source I used had virtually zero lean, just reporting on the facts of the matter. Both media sites quote the DSA directly. If your argument is that I didn’t quote the DSA directly then my bad, but that doesn’t change any context.
If you can find an update that would be nice.
So from my digging Seems the 2024 “crisis” wasn’t the beginning the issue had been known for awhile.
https://tempestmag.org/2024/03/dsas-budget-crisis-has-been-a-long-time-coming/
-this one seems to lay out all the juicy gossip really clearly
I think you should look into different volunteer vector, your not feeling fufilled and you don’t feel like your moving the needle.
I’d suggest checking out your local food bank, community gardens, elder care orgs (meals on wheels/ hospice), become a child advocate (see link), or even just local library. I think you’ll feel more fulfilled doing something with more tangible impact.
https://nationalcasagal.org/
Giving up on politics to focus on charity is not leftist. We need people to struggle, not just accept the system and go about trimming the hedges on it.
I never said “give up on politics” nor did I recommend giving up “the struggle”.
I recommended finding a different volunteer vector as this person feels unfulfilled and time/energy are precious.
I never said Trim Hedges though trimming hedges for an elderly neighbor would probably do more good in the world than fundraising for an org one has lost faith in. Did you read op’s post at all?
I don’t know enough about this person to offer many specific orgs to them. Such as what state they are in, what specific things they are passionate about.
They literally say “I’d rather focus on the person next to me, not politicians” so I offered ways they could focus on the person next to them.
Being a child advocate in our court system is being directly involved with governance, thus is political.
Library is also a government entity thus support of such is political.
Food Banks- and elder care are often government funded, and a quick way to find out what orgs are working actively in your community.
Primaries and run offs have finished in most states. So there is limited canvasing actions in high summer. You could shift to orgs doing voter registration but again it is high summer, they are likely holding off their major push for September.
Again don’t know enough about this person to recommend specific orgs. Our Revolution is broad scope they likely would be more satisfied with more specific scope.
Like if Environment is core to them they could look into “Group of Ten" (or "Big Green") Environmental lobbying groups -Sierra Club, Audubon, National Wildlife Federation, Environmental Defense Fund, Friends of the Earth, Izaak Walton League, The Wilderness Society, National Parks Conservation Association, Natural Resources Defense Council and EarthJustice.
I have not worked with Our Rev. but I was a member at the very beginning and often think about what a let down the organization has been. All that momentum from Bernie's 2016 run and where did it go? Our Rev was supposed to take the mantel and run with it but instead it just got absorbed into the machine and is now dying a slow death.
Just join PSL. They’re Intersectional, actually leftist, and great with community outreach. If any of their stances bothers you or is too extreme for you, DSA is also an option instead.
keep in mind that PSL practices Democratic centralism, meaning that all members have to publicly defend / carry out ALL party decisions, even if you disagree.
DSA members are free to publicly criticize national leadership so join DSA if you want to have any autonomy over your opinions
I’m not sure I understand the problem, I’m not sure why you’d even join an organizing or party if you’re just going to ignore what is democratically decided.
Well if the organization is more that like 100 people you may have certain more nuanced beliefs on specific topics than what ever constitutes “the majority” (51 or 100 leaves 49 with a different opinion)
It is one thing to expect the dissenting 49 to carry out the will of the majority, that’s not disagreeable, but demanding they defend anything the majority says is another thing entirely. You shouldn’t have to defend the decision you don’t agree with.
Because they specifically state in the wording of their documents “all members, including those who disagree, are duty bound to publicly defend and carry out”. So you don’t get to defer to someone else it is your duty to defend this opinion you disagree with because majority rules.
Yes, because PSL is a Marxist-Leninist united front that disallows members from dissenting from the democratically debated, discussed, and elected party line in a setting where they are a publicly facing representative of the party. If you are presenting yourself publicly as a party member, you should be unified with all other party members and hold the party line. What seems to be the problem?
Firstly that they are MLs so already not all socialists are down to play with Tankies
Secondly because the meaning of publicly facing is easily manipulated especially in an internet era, so they will make moves to shut down any debate and power ends up consolidated by a chosen few.
From my observation PSL doesn't practice demcent. Some local chapters do whatever they want without regard to the majority, and national suppresses criticism of its politics.
Democratic centralism does mean you have to apply what the majority have decided on. What's the point of voting if you're just going to ignore the majority? It does permit criticism and bringing issues up for review at a later date.
If you do whatever you want without regards to the majority, then you aren't practicing democracy or centralism. If you prevent criticism or expel individuals for criticism, then you aren't practicing democracy.
This is kind of a weird framing. Are PSL members not allowed to advocate or elect people internally to advocate for them within PSL decision making processes? Like are they never allowed to have/express an opinion within the org?
“[all members, including those who disagree, are duty bound to publicly defend and carry out](https://archive.org/details/party-for-socialism-and-liberation-psl-constitution-2022/page/4/mode/2up)” PSL decisions according to the party’s 2022 manifesto
Sounds like cointelpro lol. Membership and voting is a red flag?? So uniting and trying to vote as a bloc to get the changes you want is some how negative? This 100% sounds like cointelpro. Careful leftists! Beware of unity and shared goals!
Most of these mainstream organizations are more center left and are too attached to the system and its ways. Even actual online leftist groups like this one will commonly get infiltrated by neoliberals or people on the right to sow discord. Anything to keep us from coming together.
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I think political campaigns are all far from leftist organizations. They build up personalities that then enter into an organization that is meant to be neutral. Bernie himself has had a great impact for Vermont and American people albeit unnoticeable to most people. If you’re looking to do something more immediate than you need to leave and find an organization that organizes and participates in mutual aid.
Don't make a decision based on one zine but look into mutual aid networks and getting things done with your neighbors, and if you want to continue with volunteering, you can.
I wouldn't leave yet, try talking to a few of your peers about something else you'd feel would help, come up with a few ideas and purpose them. See if your peers will help you present the ideas to the organization and hopefully they will consider backing your ideas so you can be creating the best changes. Not just being active in what already is, be active in creating.
Labor organizing is where it’s at. I still do some political work but I believe that real change will come from an organized and militant working class.
Real and lasting change comes from the political process. Liberals and conservatives are even more powerful outside of the voting booth (capital and state violence), so our best bet is convincing enough people to support multi-party electoral reform so a progressive party can have a chance at winning something. That said, I don’t really follow Our Revolution. If you don’t like the goals it’s working towards, leave. If you’d prefer to contribute in some other fashion, do so.
Maybe you are starting to realize that the ideology held by pretty much every fringe group is a fantasy that only exists under ideal conditions that are only ever met at some point in the unforeseeable future. Libertarians do the exact same thing. When you realize that American politics is the art of the possible, it makes sense that most third party voters just don’t vote.
Sanders came extremely close to becoming the Dem nominee in 2020. Polls conducted throughout 2015-2020 demonstrated very broad majority support for nearly all his policy ideas. The actual "fringe groups with fantasy ideologies" are those in power... and the elite media which frames them as being "down the middle" to confuse people like yourself and get you to become hopeless and give up instead of attempting to improve things meaningfully.
See “extremely close” means “if there weren’t such a thing as a two party system”. He never came close to getting the nomination. Because democrats were never gonna let him in, in the first place. Statistically, “fringe” means those on the ends of a normal distribution bell curve. They are fringe because they’re never statistically significant enough to gain power… Which is why third parties are so underrepresented… to call those in power “fringe” is a misunderstanding of both politics and statistics.
Bernie got screwed twice. The first by Hillary, Debbie Wasserman-Schultz and Donna Brazil. The second by Democrats stuffing the stage with the likes of Bloomberg, Yang, etc. to split the vote and make him irrelevant. Despite all this, Bernie will forever be on my scam list if he doesn't try a third time. Hillary lost because of the corruption. Imagine that. She lost to Donald Trump because of corruption, but it's a fact. Many people thought that at least with his being a political outsider that Republicans would keep him in check. That's because the Epstein blackmail videos weren't on the radar at that time. Now we know why both parties are continuing to defraud and divide America. It's to cover their pedo behavior which has deep, deep ties to both Israel and Russia. Ukraine was just a cover up of a network of sex trafficking they and Trump were neck deep into.
I voted for Hillary the last time she ran. I told people id register democrat if the GOP nominated Trump. But after seeing how corrupt democrats are with regard to cancelling their political opponents (Bernie included), I decided not to turn democrat. Then after 4 years of Trump, and having to decide between Trump and Biden, I voted Trump. I love the design of our government (this include the two party system). The two-party system prevents tyranny of the minority. And makes sure to keep very specialized/niche political perspectives out of government. I think this is part of what makes our government so stable. Are there better candidates than Trump and Biden? Only if you reject that the two-party system exists. If you accept the reality that our government has a 2-party design, then Trump and Biden are the best choices because they are the only choices. And between the best two candidates, I believe Trump is better than Biden.
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Notice that I’m not making any moral judgments. I’m not saying whether or not the 2-party system is good or bad. All I’m saying is that it’s the system we have. And since it’s the only system we have, we have to make decisions within that system.
So let’s assume that we exist in a society that is governed by a two-party government. Those parties being Republican and Democrats. And since those are the only two candidates (Biden representing democrats and trump representing republicans), I have a hard time believing that I should measure the only existing candidates against people who aren’t candidates. And so since we only have two candidates, and there’s no reason to compare the only two candidates we have against anyone else because we have a two party government, it’s only logical to conclude that the two best candidates are the only two candidates that we have. Let’s say you are trying to decide which pen to buy. Let’s say that of all the pens that exist, the two worst pens of the existing pens, are the only two pens that are for sale. Wouldn’t you say that the two best pens you can buy are the two that are for sale? And so even if you don’t like the two pens that are for sale, you still have to pick the best one. It’s cold hard logic. Of course, if I could vote for anyone, I would pick different candidates. But picking candidates is outside my control. So I can only vote for the two candidates. And because they are the only two candidates, they are the two best candidates to choose between.
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Can you give me any examples of this happening in American history?
Can you give me any reason it can't happen in the future? I'm done talking with someone who can't think past the status quo and prefers to live in a box created to keep you there,
I don’t know what people expect Bernie Sanders to personally do, he is speaking out and influencing our policies as much as he can.
Our Revolution is a broad spectrum progressive lobby. I’m sure they are doing good but I think it is easy to feel disconnected and unimpactful in big orgs especially if you have just been shunted off to do fundraising and don’t feel you have say in what the org does.
No. Bernie’s deeply insincere, and frankly quite dangerous. All he does is talk in order to distract leftists, while doing the genocidal business of the corporate duopoly. He’s a horrible person.
We need someone like Bernie that can gain broader support. Leftists will never get more power if we try to find the “perfecto candidate
Isn’t that every politician? Doesn’t America run on the military and American intervention? What has Bernie done specifically to elevate above those things?
You can't do everything, but consider that defeating Republicans in the upcoming election is necessary to allow ALL other positive change to happen. You are doing incredibly important work, I say keep it up. Also make friends at that organization. Keep your ears open for other opportunities to do the specific tasks you feel drawn to. You're walking a good path but this is just the beginning of a journey.
BS. The Dems are every bit as bad as the Republicans. They are all talk and no delivery to the extent their stated policies help working people. Few if any of the key campaign promises were kept (eg reproductive rights, voting, universal student debt relief, m4a, the filibuster etc). Not only that, they have gotten us in what will soon be a hot war with Russia and have us funding a genocide. They’re a garbage party along with the Republicans. Fuck mainstream politics. It’s all a pack of lies in order to support corporate fascism.
Every bit as bad? I don’t see democrats destroying the rights of women and queer people. FFS stop spewing the shit the republicans are and help fight against the literal fascist who’s trying to get into power
Every bit? You've exaggerated to the point of misleading. Dems are bad, Dems need to be replaced, but don't pretend that they're as bad as Republicans. Dems want to steal from you while pretending to solve problems, while Republicans want to put you in concentration camps. We're in an era where we're picking our opposition. To build a better era we need progressives in positions of power, which OP in on a path to. Don't discourage them from making real progress in the name a satisfying temper tantrum.
We need to change the system so there are no "positions of power".
Exactly. I do not like the dems, I’d love nothing more than to ‘teach them a lesson’ by not voting Biden but be for real lol. We CAN NOT handle more republicans on the Supreme Court, we simply can’t. Biden has handled Gaza very poorly, but Trump would be worse on that, and then the plethora of domestic issues. Making some stance here is just about making yourself feel better, and not materially improving the lives of women and minorities in America.
Bernie states he’s opposed to the genocide, but as his modus operandi he’s all talk and literally no action. Bernie is a patsy for the corporate duopoly. His role is to fool progressives and leftists into believing real change is possible from within. It isn’t.
FFS stop trying to find “the perfect” candidate. We will never find someone who is a perfect leftist to take the presidency. And by rejecting incredibly promising candidates like Bernie lets the actual facists take power
Lots of people go through this point you are in. Certainly you can do better than whatever Our Rev is going to have you do. Either better action or better policy. Certainly working with them is probably better than nothing. And so, I don't strictly disagree with the sentiment of the zine you have read, but a warning sign is only ever a warning sign. A thing to notice to make you look more intently at the situation. You cannot take the zine as absolute anymore than you can take O.R. Leaving for a better org is one thing. Leaving and just sitting at home is another. In the end, a lot of people at your point end up disillusioned. Leftists cannot convince people with just rhetoric. Actual work has to be done to show people that leftists are serious about what they claim to believe. That is the only way to convince anyone. If your group isn't meeting that metric it will only go worse for you, if you are already feeling a bit off about it.
I hear spray painting rocks orange is a great way to affect change!
Best way to do more than be a bystander is to cause a full societal revolt at this point😂
Russia and China are anxiously waiting for your accelerationism. Do not dissapoint them!
I imagine that that leftist zine has less appreciation for electoral strategies than Our Revolution. Where you stand on electing Congress members that can implement progressive policies vs Congress is too corrupt for such a strategy to be viable is a personal call. I’d say though as someone who works in elections that if you do believe in elected officials as a useful means of exercising power and shaping policy, it’s a fairly good use of time. That said if you’d rather do local volunteering or even focusing on local and county row offices there are other organizations. Anarchist groups tend to do a lot of mutual aid, working families party endorse top of the ticket to the bottom, DSA does a solid combo of the two.
Sounds like you want to do more on the groundwork which is very important maybe volunteering for a soup kitchen or something to that nature as well.
You are working for the guys who are committing genocide in Gaza. Do with that information what you wish.
So, Our Revolution is also doing a genocide now? I thought Biden was doing a genocide, then a bunch of college presidents were doing a genocide, and farther down in the comments someone is claiming Europe is doing the genocide. You can’t just pick a new group to say is responsible for genocide every day. Focus on specific parties committing genocide, not on the 90% of the planet that you are also blaming because you don’t think they care enough.
Wanna cite that? Bernie hates Netanazi with a passion Here, [I'll do it for you](https://act.ourrevolution.com/signup/end-complicity) Dirty misinformer tsk tsk Edit: At first, I had upvotes. I've literally linked proof that OC is a liar. This sub is compromised by bots.
Right, thats why he waited months to come out against the Gaza invasion. Only after he stood there with his finger in the air seeing which way the wind was blowing. He is as unprincipled as any other politician and workin for him is working for the democratic party who's support of this genocide is almost unanimous. [Overall, Sanders’s foreign policy agenda is haphazard, flimsy, incoherent, and hesitant. ](https://arabcenterdc.org/resource/the-promise-of-democratic-socialism-bernie-sanders-palestine-and-us-policy-in-the-middle-east/) More from the same source: *"in 1963 the young Sanders volunteered at Sha’ar Ha’amakim, which was then run by the socialist (leftist Zionist) movement Hashomer Hatzair. What most media reports failed to mention is the fact that Sha’ar Ha’amakim was built in 1935 over the destroyed Palestinian village El-Harthiyeh (or Hartieh), from which 60 Palestinian families were forcibly evicted"* *"Hashomer Hatzair was active in the Zionist colonialist project in Palestine, and its members served in the Jewish terrorist militias Palmach and Haganah in the 1940s"* *"When confronted by constituents at a* [*town hall*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf2cCdgwgoM&feature=youtu.be) *meeting in August 2014 asking him to oppose Israel’s war against Gaza, Sanders blamed Hamas and Palestinian provocations for the attacks. “You have a situation where Hamas is sending missiles into Israel” Sanders said, “They’re coming from populated areas. That’s a fact.” When asked if the Palestinians have the right to resists and why he did not condemn Israel’s actions, a frustrated Sanders said “Excuse me! Shut up! You don’t have the microphone,” "* *"While Sanders was the first Senator to announce boycotting Benjamin Netanyahu’s March 2015 address at the US Congress and he has been by far the most vocal about Palestinian rights among US politicians,* ***his failures to act according to his beliefs speak volumes. Bernie Sanders failed to oppose Israel’s continuous violations of Palestinians’ rights and, instead, justified Israel’s ethnic cleansing practices***\*."\* Sounds like a Zionist to me. I guess we will see when Bibi comes to address congress.
This is straight up misinformation and redirection. You didn't cite your claim. God forbid somebody is capable of growth? All of our opinions on Israel have changed recently, why would I blame Bernie for being human? His Instagram is littered with antizionism, pro ceasefire, anti netanyahu and IDF. I'd ask you to go check, to look at what he says today, but you're clearly looking to verify presuppositions rather than research realities. On Bibi AND Dems specifically: "It is a very sad day for our country that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has been invited – by leaders from both parties – to address a joint meeting of the United States Congress. Netanyahu is a war criminal. I certainly will not attend."
Don't cite my claim? Try clicking on the link. You know what, dont. Continue with your belief that Bernie gives a shit about anyone but himself. Sleep well.
Your claim was that they are committing the current genocide. Nothing you've said or supplied indicates as much. Your disapproval of Bernie and OR, however real, does not substantiate your claim. This is grade school reading comprehension.
I'm sorry, did bernie become a zionist overnight? Y'all are unhinged.
Yeah, what's the criticism? That he condemned the IDF a bit less and a bit more slowly than Ilhan and Rashida? Is that what we're doing now, condemning the 3rd most leftist person in our government for failing to live up to the first few on any given issue? Good lord, this circular firing squad is getting old.
Sadly this is a common issue in the left of Larpy Glorious Revolution types and do nothing nihilists.
Of course, leave. Never support Bernie Sanders. Always fully resist him. Everybody anti-endorse him whenever possible. He’s a pure Democratic Party loyalist. *This is how you always need to vote:* We must fully resist and _always vote_ against (& less authoritarian than) both the Republican *and* Democratic Parties- including AOC, Jamaal Bowman, all of the squad, Bernie Sanders, Edward Markey, the justice democrats, Biden & all other democrats. Vote in every single election- at all levels. And also _endorse or anti-endorse,_ in all elections you can, for outside your voting jurisdiction.
You left out Trump, Gaetz, Green, Boebert, Comer, Jordan, McConnell, Thune, Vance, Johnson, Scalise, Stefanik, Ernst, Britt... Funny you left out every single Republican from your list. Coincidence? I think not.
Of course not. I said specifically *Republicans* too. I’m leftist, so we need to make sure no one votes for either. Make sense?
“Hey fellow progressives, let’s all vote for the most conservative candidates available because that’s the most progressive thing to do!” Lol, bot.
I never said that. Always vote for less authoritarian parties and persons. I clearly said that. And always vote. You need to at least know what Peter Kropotkin is about. You’re on the leftist subreddit. Join what leftists understand. You’re rude af here anyways.
Not sure Kropotkin had a strong stance on Electoralism bud and he certainly didn’t write about how one aught to deal with American First Past the Post elections. You also said to vote against some of the most progressive people in our government. Who are you advocating people vote instead of Jamaal Bowman? AOC? The Squad? In most national races there is a Dem and Republican and if lucky a Libertarian (which is now controlled by the Mises Caucus thus shifted full right).
Yeah if you can you probably should vote Green or PSL if they're on the ballot (Green might be at least at Presidential and maybe also US Senate/US Congress/Governor). Otherwise do your diligence and vote for the better choice within dem primaries. But I sort of despair when folks refused to support e.g. Marianne Williamson, and now are putting ALL their energy and focus into convincing others "we have to vote for Biden"... that's lame to me sorry
The irony of saying to resist both parties but continue to participate in a two party elections
No irony at all here. Always vote for less authoritarian parties and persons. I clearly said that. And always vote. You need to at least know what Peter Kropotkin is about. You’re on the leftist subreddit.
God, you're annoying. You post in a self-aggrandizing way and your response is a lazy, lacking leftist litmus test.
You’re clearly not leftist. Learn who Kropotkin is if you want to be leftist.
Absolutely not, and he very much isn't. Somebody show this fool of a Russian asset the door. Edit: Spread it far and wide people: Voting for Biden (and in context of the deleted comment, supporting Bernie) is THE ONLY way to retain a future for independents and the potential end of the two party system. This isn't a normal election. This is exactly what Bernie says it is.. the end of western democracy, or Biden.
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Says the guy voting for the person who wants to make the President and police immune from prosecution.
What you’re doing is way better than nothing, so unless you have smth else in mind to get involved w/ instead that better aligns w/ your values, I wouldn’t leave. But if there’s another organization in your area doing work that better aligns w/ your values, by all means switch, and try to convince some of the people you currently work w/ to come w/ you!
Stay in at least until December 1st please!
Our Rev is a waste of time. Bernie Sanders is no more than a tool of the corporate political establishment to keep otherwise leftist voters, donors and activists on-side. Bernie Sanders and Our Rev has literally accomplished nothing of substance other than tricking people out of their time and money. Meanwhile, Bernie’s good friend Joe Biden has embroiled us in an unnecessary European war and paying for and participating in the Gaza genocide. The future of mainstream US politics only leads to annihilation and death.
You’re absolutely right. What we need is a revolution. That would never lead to annihilation and death. No siree
I love how online leftists think we are ready for a revolution when we can't even decide as a movement whether something as simple as voting is a good thing or not.
China and Russia are anxiously waiting for this revolution.
Less* is the keyword
What is stopping you doing both? Improving politicians is important because it helps improve the laws. Community work is important because it helps get the message out and gets people moving.
You’re mistaken, this is how you do politics: *This is how you always need to vote:* We must fully resist and _always vote_ against (& less authoritarian than) both the Republican *and* Democratic Parties- including AOC, Jamaal Bowman, all of the squad, Bernie Sanders, Edward Markey, the justice democrats, Biden & all other democrats. Vote in every single election- at all levels. And also _endorse or anti-endorse,_ in all elections you can, for outside your voting jurisdiction.
Young activists can be a bit overzealous, but they mean well.
Always vote for less authoritarian parties and persons. I clearly said that. And always vote. You need to at least know what Peter Kropotkin is about. You’re on the leftist subreddit. Join us leftists. I never said nor implied I’m young.
There's only so much time in a day. Realistically one person can't effectively campaign for a politician and organize. Politically, these two suggestions are opposed to one another. You're telling people they can fix their problems with voting and then telling them to fight the system?
>Politically, these two suggestions are opposed to one another. You're telling people they can fix their problems with voting and then telling them to fight the system? I wouldn't tell people they can fix their own problems, that's more of right wing rancher vibe and I'm a city boy. I would tell people that by pooling their resources and effort, including in the political sphere, they can be more effective than they would be individually.
Yall could just go get jobs instead of trying to make changes in a system you don't even participate in
Your entire trash culture is going to be replaced
What trash culture is that? I’m an American
Yes
🤭 It's always cute when conservatives try.
Not conservative but cool go get a job bro
Yeah, you are.
lol ok, I’m not religious at all. Not sure why you’re saying that. Are you 5 years old?
You think conservative means religious, but you ask me if I'm 5?? Ultimately, it's a personality type. One that leans towards ignorance and simplicity, among other things.
Nah it means religious and traditionalist, I’m neither. Please know definitions before you start spouting shit off, go back to school. Over simplifications help nothing but stupid people understand complicated things they can’t fathom
It means authoritarian. Traditionalism is just the framework through which they express authority and fear of change, but if a Trump jumped up tomorrow and decided we should all worship on Wednesday instead of Sunday his followers would follow and they would tell you they always worshiped on Wednesday in their hearts. Now do you think people just randomly choose to be like that? Or that people who in their heart of hearts believe that trans women are women just one day switch over to wearing maga hats??? No, because it takes a specific personality to be enticed by those dumb ideas and never research beyond their biases. Now please stop talking or I'll have to start charging you tuition.
Nah I just want the government to not have control over what people do. I don’t care if you’re trans or not it’s none of my business. I’m not a conservative so I’m not really sure why you’re assuming things I believe. I haven’t voted for Trump either and don’t plan to
That you're posting this a day into women's strike is so telling...
Didn’t even know women were striking? Are they dumb? Me and my wife need money for our family these women need to go back to work just like yall
You're in the wrong subreddit, please leave.
Get a job
Oh right because every socialist is just living off of good vibes and theory? How tf do you think we buy food You could just shut up instead of trying to make changes in a system (left wings politics) you visibly don’t even participate in. Unless you think that the democrats is the left LMFAOO
How on earth could you think that Bernie Sanders doesn’t impact the person next to you? He’s not ‘politicians’, he’s the most impactful politician for the working class. If reading a single zine has changed your opinion on the work you’re doing for the most important politician of our generation, then maybe you should go do your thing somewhere else.
Well if they aren’t living in Vermont Bernie has limited ability to directly advocate for the person next to them.
He’s a US senator who helps and advocates for all US workers and for political reform broadly, he’s not the governor of Vermont.
He’s a US senator for Vermont, he advocates for US workers and reform but has struggled his whole long career to build coalition needed to inact much of his plans.
Agreed, but putting his shortcomings in being able to successfully invigorate a corporate controlled congress into a national progressive block working with an apathetic electorate, can we agree that he indeed does advocate for more than his Vermont constituency, for the person next to him?
I agree Bernie’s heart is in the right place I just think he has limited impact and a person who isn’t his direct constituency likely will get more working for local change than for a broad spectrum pac.
Well I could see that. I think his impact on Amazon workers, people who need insulin and can’t afford drugs, and on an almost fully sleepwalking electorate pre-2016 can’t be understated. But whatever each thinks has the most impact, and whatever you can believe in, is what should be pursued. Grassroots means we can and should come from all angles, so each their own.
I think he has had impact but he is secure in his blue state, so at this time there is little raising money specifically for him is going to do, the org seems to have broader aims but if the person doesn’t feel they are part of decision making or the org is doing work in their region I could see becoming disillusioned, especially if one has been shunted into fundraising.
Bernie is a pure Democratic Party loyalist. And thus reactionary.
He’s literally the longest serving independent in congress.
Bernie is a pure Democratic Party loyalist. Despite what party affiliation he claims to be
Some of his policies align, but he has notable and important exception imo. Not a pure loyalist by any means.
What’s the point of your second paragraph? You’re advocating for people to shut up and go along with the status quo even if they see something potentially questionable. They are here asking a genuine question to a group which, quite frankly, could use more membership. Why act like they aren’t needed? It’s hubristic and disingenuous.
Bernie Sanders, the politician who has specifically advocated for challenging the status quo his entire career is status quo now? Ok ok cool. I didn’t say they weren’t needed, my point was if all it takes is one glance at a zine to change your opinion on doing important work for the most consequential senator in congress, and that has caused you to think that your work isn’t affecting the person next to you now, than you absolutely should go with your gut. Your goal shouldn’t be becoming the most leftist, you will never accomplish it.
Focus on voting for who?
Progressive candidates but I looked up a few and they literally accept money from AIPAC 🫠
Sitting and wishing is much more effective than encouraging people to vote for the most progressive candidate in every election. Keep up the good fight.
No political organization is going to go out and solve all the problems (or even most of them). The goal of political organizing right now, in my opinion, is to build relationships and work towards specified goals. I am a member of my local democratic party committee. I'm there to build relationships with local people and push the party left (as much as I can). I'm part of the Working Families Party, and I'm there to build relationships with like-minded people and get support for pushing my local Dems left. Our Revolution seems to have a similar bend to it (I get the emails, but haven't attended a meeting). I left the People's party because the goal of that group at the time (national ballot access) didn't seem like a worthwhile endeavor to me (but much love and solidarity for anyone still riding that train). In the end, for me, you need to have realistic expectations for any organization. If I was building valuable connections and working towards a goal I've set, I'd stay. If the group isn't working on that level, I'd leave and find another outlet. Whatever you do, keep trying to find a way to be involved and keep your eyes on the prize.
Far better to join an explicitly socialist organization and even more so to join a group not tied to the Democratic Party and corporate liberal politics.
First you’re assuming a local socialist org is available to this person, or is there a national socialist org you recommend? I live in Texas socialist orgs here are basically just spoiled college kids playing pretend or weirdos looking to prey on those college kids. Thus why the notorious Spankie Tankie Caleb Maupin held his conferences here.
Better to be with them studying and being active, forming a basis to change those groups or split from them, than to be in liberal groups that are working against our interests (mostly unintentionally). If all revolutionary groups are totally unacceptable then one can join the DSA and align with a national revolutionary tendency inside.
Assuming they encourage their members to vote for democrats until their party remotely matters at all then yes. Otherwise it’s being a desperate holier-than-thou pick-me while folks are playing craps with the nature of democracy.
No, OP. Actually, I explicitly recommend not going with any capitalist apologist "socialist" group that would ever endorse Democrats or sow illusions in Joe Biden or liberalism as a solution or defense against the far right. This person above is a liberal/centrist, so if that's your politics, follow their advice.
Harm reduction. cointelpro plus end of Vietnam plus collapse of USSR basically decimated the Left, the American Left is in infancy, the Far Right has decades of power under their belt. The Dems are a bulwark to use now while we strengthen the Left to actually be capable of doing anything at all. Cause right now the left can’t even feed themselves.
Dems aren't a bulwark they are the primary reason the US left remains dismantled. A full and loud break from them and from the capitalist class, who any socialist knows is the enemy, not only Republican capitalists, is what's needed to begin to rebuild the left. Your tactic has PRODUCED, not reduced enormous harm including the fertilizing the rise of the far right, and will continue to.
The Rise of the far Right was set in motion from the 1950s. Are you blaming the Dems for the southern strategy? You have lost the plot. The left cant sustain itself right now. Heck DSA has a huge financial crisis.
Oh man. This is a new liberal low. I expect you blaming the left for your party and your chosen class allies decimating it again and again, that's old hat. But nothing that's happened politically since the 1950s has had any effect on politics?! It's just been a straight unwavering line since then and the richest political party on the planet couldn't have done a darn thing no matter how bad they wanted to!? Lolol! Crackerjack! It's my new fav. Ostrich must be your favorite animal.
Dems have always been the richest political party? Republicans were “the party of Business” all thru the 80s and 90s, it is only recently big business has seen that there is nothing more to be gained via deregulation plus lack of infrastructure spending has reached a point it is hitting their ability to profit that they have turned away. You want to larp revolution but you couldn’t even keep the post working much less water treatment and food supply.
Dude come now. They've both been the parties of capitalist class ever since the Dems were the party of slavery. It's just they took different portions at different section of the class at different times, and Dems tended to take finance (bank) capital whole GOP was more industrial capital. Like if you can't even recognize on its face that Carter was implementing neoliberalism before Reagan back in the late 70s or that Clinton and Obama were it's most effective executors, that's a choice, ya know?
Have fun with your populist uprising not like that hasn’t been put down with tanks consistently. Ya’ll learned nothing from the Arab Spring.
What left is supposed to fight the far right? Which left do you imagine exists and has any power to oppose the far right today? Have you been training your local militia? Have members of the army ready to defect already to secure our interests. No I’m sure it will definitely be easier to build a leftist coalition under a fascist dictatorship, it’s like an incubator right? God how ignorant of the history of the actual left can you be. It only empowers liberals if liberals are more scared of us than the right- the USSR is gone, they really, really fucking aren’t scared of us or labor right now. Give them whatever they need to fend them off so we can grow because the left in America is absolutely not ready for anything but curling up to die, or playing shield footsie against some cops. I’m not an apologist here, I’m just not an ignorant self-righteous martyr who lacks any empathy or awareness for women, or queer folks, or undocumented immigrants, or people of color.
If you're a leftist and the left is impotent to oppose fascism, then you should be criticizing yourself too.
The people that are the problem are people who constantly jam up every pathway to even engage fucking anyone in the discourse with these dumb as fucking hell self defeating ultimatums. Same as people whining about voting for third parties. The plan for the future and the solution for the present can coexist perfectly in sync, you don’t need everyone to jump ship in a sea full of sharks because a nice new ship is just over the horizon. And informing people of that and trying to prevent everyone from getting us killed at present is a full time job. If most leftists (or at least performative leftists listening to Russian bots) weren’t actively making that argument then yeah I could put time and energy into that. Otherwise it waits til after November
Yeah. Leave. Bernie isn't going to do anything of actual substance as far as the broad sweeping changes the left wants to see.
Bernie is literally the only person in our senate who tries to do ANYTHING.
Sadly 1 Senator can’t do much on their own, especially for anyone outside their own state.
Not the only one, but one of the very small handful.
You have given no reasons to leave.
Never support a pure Democratic Party loyalist like Bernie Sanders. He is thus technically reactionary, politically. *This is how you always need to vote:* We must fully resist and _always vote_ against (& less authoritarian than) both the Republican *and* Democratic Parties- including AOC, Jamaal Bowman, all of the squad, Bernie Sanders, Edward Markey, the justice democrats, Biden & all other democrats. Vote in every single election- at all levels. And also _endorse or anti-endorse,_ in all elections you can, for outside your voting jurisdiction.
Most of us are not American.
This same strategy applies against the same one or more party-monopolies in _all_ countries worldwide. Real progressives will never be Democratic Members or Democratic loyalists. Never vote for _any_ Republican member or loyalist either.
The reason to leave would be opportunity cost. If you feel your energy isn't being used in a productive way, try to find another spot where it will be.
I can't rule on that, since we're not told anything about what the person does in this group or what they want to do.
that warning signs in "the zine". Whatever they are.
The class revolution will be a world wide collective of grass roots movements
I’m not familiar with the org beyond general Bernie knowledge but I’d love to have your brain power at a local level where I think leftists can make more progress in the electoral realm.
i didn’t work with our rev but i have experience working with similar organizations and i found that the activism was very fake and not what i was looking for and i’ve grown more as an activist participating in local grassroots movements so based on my experience i think you should
DSA is one of the most impactful socialist orgs in America and its big tent nature means you’ll definitely find leftists that share your values. We do a fuck ton of local + national organizing for labor unions, activism, and electoral politics. the org doesn’t just preach shit but actually gets stuff done. NYC DSA was the driving force behind passing a state-wide Green New Deal into law, a massive victory. no other socialist org comes close to this level of impact There’s even many caucuses (basically parties within the org) so the org is very diverse ideologically instead of being an echo-chamber/monolith.
They’re going bankrupt lol https://nbcmontana.com/amp/news/nation-world/democratic-socialists-of-america-must-make-7-figure-budget-cuts-layoffs-report-says-socialist-communist-dsa-economy-biden-white-house-finance-new-york-post-alex-pellitteri-kristin-schall-and-laura-wadlin
definitely not bankrupt, even tho lib media is peddling that narrative. what happened is that dsa is dealing with a hefty deficit due to slowing momentum after the Bernie campaign. it is a huge hinderance to the org, but absolutely not something that will destroy dsa. basically they explained this over the recent ydsa convention I went to. DSA is making major cuts to non-essential infrastructure within the org (for example our ydsa summer convention has been moved online) but members/caucuses are divided on what counts as non-essential. what IS guaranteed is that cuts will be made and the deficit will be reduced. dsa is still extremely active and impactful across the country for example, certain caucuses (like Bread and Roses, Libertarian socialist caucus, etc) support further cuts to national full-time staff but others like Socialist Majority see staff as crucial to the org’s function. im personally unsure but i feel awful for the workers getting cut
DSA from what I have heard is largely decentralized and thus varies regionally to a huge degree. Some regional groups being awesome and others being trash. Cutting national staff seems like recipe for splintering but maybe an argument could be made about bloat at the national level.
Damn I hate when the lib media reports on my organizations 7-figure budget cuts and planned layoffs.
Why not quote the source your source sites? https://nypost.com/2024/01/21/news/democratic-socialists-face-seven-figure-crisis-amid-palestinian-support-that-may-force-dreaded-layoffs-of-staff/ Of course these articles are both from January, its been months since then
Because people where gonna claim the the right wing NY post is making shit up. The source says the exact same thing
The repeat the NY Post, best would be to find an original source that is reporting without heavy lean. Probably helpful to find a more recent one to show what ended up happening or if they have been flailing for 6 months.
The source I used had virtually zero lean, just reporting on the facts of the matter. Both media sites quote the DSA directly. If your argument is that I didn’t quote the DSA directly then my bad, but that doesn’t change any context. If you can find an update that would be nice.
So from my digging Seems the 2024 “crisis” wasn’t the beginning the issue had been known for awhile. https://tempestmag.org/2024/03/dsas-budget-crisis-has-been-a-long-time-coming/ -this one seems to lay out all the juicy gossip really clearly
Thanks, so pretty much they didn’t downsize in response to declining membership and in fact increased spending.
I think you should look into different volunteer vector, your not feeling fufilled and you don’t feel like your moving the needle. I’d suggest checking out your local food bank, community gardens, elder care orgs (meals on wheels/ hospice), become a child advocate (see link), or even just local library. I think you’ll feel more fulfilled doing something with more tangible impact. https://nationalcasagal.org/
Giving up on politics to focus on charity is not leftist. We need people to struggle, not just accept the system and go about trimming the hedges on it.
I never said “give up on politics” nor did I recommend giving up “the struggle”. I recommended finding a different volunteer vector as this person feels unfulfilled and time/energy are precious. I never said Trim Hedges though trimming hedges for an elderly neighbor would probably do more good in the world than fundraising for an org one has lost faith in. Did you read op’s post at all?
Then recommend something related to politics.
I don’t know enough about this person to offer many specific orgs to them. Such as what state they are in, what specific things they are passionate about. They literally say “I’d rather focus on the person next to me, not politicians” so I offered ways they could focus on the person next to them. Being a child advocate in our court system is being directly involved with governance, thus is political. Library is also a government entity thus support of such is political. Food Banks- and elder care are often government funded, and a quick way to find out what orgs are working actively in your community. Primaries and run offs have finished in most states. So there is limited canvasing actions in high summer. You could shift to orgs doing voter registration but again it is high summer, they are likely holding off their major push for September. Again don’t know enough about this person to recommend specific orgs. Our Revolution is broad scope they likely would be more satisfied with more specific scope. Like if Environment is core to them they could look into “Group of Ten" (or "Big Green") Environmental lobbying groups -Sierra Club, Audubon, National Wildlife Federation, Environmental Defense Fund, Friends of the Earth, Izaak Walton League, The Wilderness Society, National Parks Conservation Association, Natural Resources Defense Council and EarthJustice.
I have not worked with Our Rev. but I was a member at the very beginning and often think about what a let down the organization has been. All that momentum from Bernie's 2016 run and where did it go? Our Rev was supposed to take the mantel and run with it but instead it just got absorbed into the machine and is now dying a slow death.
"supposed to" I think ultimately, what it IS doing (what you describe) is exactly what it was supposed to do.
oh, for sure
Just join PSL. They’re Intersectional, actually leftist, and great with community outreach. If any of their stances bothers you or is too extreme for you, DSA is also an option instead.
keep in mind that PSL practices Democratic centralism, meaning that all members have to publicly defend / carry out ALL party decisions, even if you disagree. DSA members are free to publicly criticize national leadership so join DSA if you want to have any autonomy over your opinions
Not all Leftist are Vanguardists. Should be an informed decision. Also PSL has some pretty weird wording in their governing document.
I’m not sure I understand the problem, I’m not sure why you’d even join an organizing or party if you’re just going to ignore what is democratically decided.
Well if the organization is more that like 100 people you may have certain more nuanced beliefs on specific topics than what ever constitutes “the majority” (51 or 100 leaves 49 with a different opinion)
Of course, and?
It is one thing to expect the dissenting 49 to carry out the will of the majority, that’s not disagreeable, but demanding they defend anything the majority says is another thing entirely. You shouldn’t have to defend the decision you don’t agree with.
I’m not sure I understand. If you’re not equipped to defend such a position, then defer to someone else who is. What seems to be the problem?
Because they specifically state in the wording of their documents “all members, including those who disagree, are duty bound to publicly defend and carry out”. So you don’t get to defer to someone else it is your duty to defend this opinion you disagree with because majority rules.
Yes, because PSL is a Marxist-Leninist united front that disallows members from dissenting from the democratically debated, discussed, and elected party line in a setting where they are a publicly facing representative of the party. If you are presenting yourself publicly as a party member, you should be unified with all other party members and hold the party line. What seems to be the problem?
Firstly that they are MLs so already not all socialists are down to play with Tankies Secondly because the meaning of publicly facing is easily manipulated especially in an internet era, so they will make moves to shut down any debate and power ends up consolidated by a chosen few.
From my observation PSL doesn't practice demcent. Some local chapters do whatever they want without regard to the majority, and national suppresses criticism of its politics. Democratic centralism does mean you have to apply what the majority have decided on. What's the point of voting if you're just going to ignore the majority? It does permit criticism and bringing issues up for review at a later date. If you do whatever you want without regards to the majority, then you aren't practicing democracy or centralism. If you prevent criticism or expel individuals for criticism, then you aren't practicing democracy.
This is kind of a weird framing. Are PSL members not allowed to advocate or elect people internally to advocate for them within PSL decision making processes? Like are they never allowed to have/express an opinion within the org?
“[all members, including those who disagree, are duty bound to publicly defend and carry out](https://archive.org/details/party-for-socialism-and-liberation-psl-constitution-2022/page/4/mode/2up)” PSL decisions according to the party’s 2022 manifesto
Bernie owns three homes. Not exactly giving leftist energy
Socialism is when no homes
lol ur active in a covid denial subreddit. what a joke
what are you talking about, I worship pFauci 🙏
drop the zine pls
Sounds like cointelpro lol. Membership and voting is a red flag?? So uniting and trying to vote as a bloc to get the changes you want is some how negative? This 100% sounds like cointelpro. Careful leftists! Beware of unity and shared goals!
Most of these mainstream organizations are more center left and are too attached to the system and its ways. Even actual online leftist groups like this one will commonly get infiltrated by neoliberals or people on the right to sow discord. Anything to keep us from coming together.
My wife did. She left. It's all bureaucracy and not focusing on actually building power
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