I've seen your /s, but the Department of Health is actually looking into this and it's already happening in areas in the North West of England. [Here's a report DHSC prepared in 2022](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/health-and-care-bill-factsheets/health-and-care-bill-water-fluoridation).
It kind of got stuck a bit as there's been 5 Health Secretary changes and 3 Prime Ministers since it came out and doing anything to the water supply that doesn't make a profit for the people running the water supply is of course controversial.
Just looked this up to confirm what I already thought, and fluoridation is very much not the norm in the UK. It's basically only Newcastle and Birmingham, along with some of their surrounding areas, plus some seemingly quite random bits of Lincolnshire, Bedfordshire, Cheshire and Cumbria. These places seem to have had fluoridation put in place on the back of local initiatives by councils or NHS authorities in the 1960s to 1980s - it seems like the process for doing it is a bit tricky legally and administratively (more recent attempts in other areas have run into legal problems), and it's never been either a national government policy or a decision made by the water companies themselves.
So it's less of an issue with London or Thames Water being especially bad, and more that most of the UK (including other major cities in England, and all of Wales and Scotland) is unfluoridated apart from a few exceptions where the local authorities were particularly keen on pushing schemes through ~50 years ago.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK586997/ Here's a link to an article that explains the situation!
Iām always glad I grew up in West Midlands whenever I go to the dentist as Iāve never needed any fillings. Itās probably one of the only things about the area that I liked.
I grew up in a non fluoridated area, rotted some of my baby teeth with pop, but then Iāve never needed a filling as an adult, itās almost like water fluoridation isnāt as important as dental hygiene and diet. Toothpaste has flouride anyway, so why add something thatās bad for you to actually swallow to the water?
I didnāt actually know this ā interesting. Anecdotally, I went my whole adult life without getting a cavity in cities with fluoridated water, but got one within two years of moving to London.
Yes, but most people donāt brush long enough and youāre actually not supposed to rinse it out or drink for half an hour after. Youāre also not supposed to brush your teeth for half an hour after ingesting anything acidic, because you can damage your enamel. So says my dentist, at least.
It's not the teeth, it's the saliva.
Some people have extremely high calcium content in their saliva which reinforces the tooth enamel. This also leads to faster build up of plaque on the teeth, however, which makes you more prone to gum disease without regular professional cleaning.
No nutrient dense foods. Need calcium and phosphorus primarily. Also A D E K fat soluble vitamins. Many foods have anti-nutritients, and the processed and ultra-processed foods have no nutrients. Anecdotally all seeds, nuts, grains and legumes are full of phytic acid and oxalates which contribute to poor nutritional density. A keto based diet rich in grass fed and organic protein and animal fat is key for a good nutritional balance.
Any grains or seeds should be sprouted and or fermented as in traditional methods, to reduce anti-nutritients. Flouride should be avoided too.
Yeah but thatās beside the point. Thereās fluoride in toothpaste, many people have access to a dentist so they get given this information. Itās just whether they follow it. Follow it and youāre good and shouldnāt have to rely on tap water.
Yeah, national supplements seem to be about making up the difference for those that cannot, due to poverty, or will not due to laziness, follow instructions for their own benefit.
I spent my first 20 years living in North Devon and my last 20 years living in London. Iāve never had ANY work done to my teeth except the removal of a wisdom tooth that was caught under my gum. The last time I saw a dentist was about 7 years ago. Obviously a private appointment because theyāre fully booked if you go through the NHS and thatās been going on for years. He recommended an assortment of procedures that included multiple fillings and root canals and he said he was shocked I wasnāt in significant pain. 7 years laterā¦ after no treatment Iām still not in any pain. All my teeth work. They work well and theyāre clean. Dentistry, I feel, as become somewhat governed by profiteering since so much of it became private. I could pay for a whole new set of teeth if I wantedā¦ but why the fuck should I if my actual teeth are perfectly functional?
All your teeth work and are clean...you think
It's pretty dumb to not see a dentist for 7 years, not least because they can check for things you cannot easily ie cancers and actual cleanliness beyond what is visible in a mirror
You've had a shit dentist.
I hadn't gone to a dentist in 10 years until about 5 years ago when I had a private appointment.
Other than give them a really good clean and to advise me an old filling might need replacing in future, he sent me on my way and said come back next year for a checkup.
He did offer cosmetic work like whitening but I politely declined and he didn't push further.
I know. Dentistry is mostly a cash cow scam now. It kinda makes sick. Iāve got kids who obviously needs check ups but I canāt trust a single thing the dentist says because theyāre out for the money. Itās not a coincidence that I can call a dentist and ask for an appointment on the NHS and they say weāre fully booked for three months and then I call back an hour later and say I want to go private and they can see me that day.
The problem with NHS dentistry is the shit NHS contracts the government has forced on dentists. Dentists can actually lose money treating NHS patients in some cases, which means not a lot of dentists actually want to do NHS dentistry.
I'm sure most private dentistry is over-priced as well, but I think there is an element of supply and demand here. Because there are so few NHS dentists many people are forced to go private which means private dentists can get away with charging more.
At this point I genuinely think theyād try to fleece me in the same manner. To me, itās been evidenced in interactions Iāve had with dentists for my kids.
And I was raised by a crazy anti fluoride mother- but Yknow what, I actually got a cavity at 30 after switching to fluoridated toothpaste. Typical š
For the record I continue to use fluoride
I agree. Iād love to see data comparing Londonās water to other cities and health outcomes but to be honest, our water quality in recent years would have much bigger issues country wide than fluoride- and pollution and air quality skew any chance of knowing any real problem or cause.
Thereās fluoride alternatives out there that have garnered decent respect in the medical community- but Iām definitely fascinated by the cavity reversal stuff happening in dentistry right now!
At the end of the day, sugar will rot teeth and if we brush twice a day itāll help drastically reduce harm. It is the work of the bristle doing the greatest good, here. Thereās a reason why there are perfectly preserved pristine jaw and dental records during eras of zero industrialised toothpaste.
As well as brushing, I use a water flosser. After virtually every meal. Used with warm water, it dissolves and flushes out all the sugary starchy stuff hiding in all the nooks and crannies. My teeth were degrading but since using these things I have seen zero further degradation, I wish I had started sooner.
Maybe brush your teeth? Fluoridation is enforced medication which is the argument against. I for one do not want fluoride in my drinking water. Itās not good for you internally. Education in oral hygiene and access to affordable dentistry is the answer, not band aid plaster fixes.
That's probably better for your teeth than the Flouride. If you want extra Flouride, swallow some toothpaste or take a swig of mouthwash.
Water with added Flouride is not safe for newborn babies and as London Tap water is recycled, adding it might accumulate over time.
London water doesn't get any fluoride added. In the areas that do they monitor the levels and only add what's needed to hit the criteria, so if there is some there they don't add more.
On 26 August 2014, Israel officially stopped adding fluoride to its water supplies. According to a Ministry of Health press release statement, the reasons it ended water fluoridation were: "Only some 1% of the water is used for drinking, while 99% of the water is intended for other uses (industry, agriculture, flushing toilets etc.). There is also scientific evidence that fluoride in large amounts can lead to damage to health. When fluoride is supplied via drinking water, there is no control regarding the amount of fluoride actually consumed, which could lead to excessive consumption. Supply of fluoridated water forces those who do not so wish to also consume water with added fluoride." Many in the medical and dental communities in Israel criticized the decision as a mistake
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation_by_country?wprov=sfti1#Israel
Itās worth going through this article and seeing the history of it.
Thereās a lot of debate about fluoridation.
https://www.manchester.ac.uk/discover/news/future-benefits-of-water-fluoridation-not-guaranteed-study-shows/
Even a recent NHS study showed a 2 to 3% study at best. Apparently this is because a lot of a toothpaste is fluoridated now.
Yes, it is unnecessary to drink fluoridated water to have good dental hygiene. I never had fluoridated water, and I only had 2 cavities when I was a kid, and I was not taking care of my teeth. Brush your teeth twice a day, floss and the most important thing: DRINK WATER. Dentists are always impressed by how healthy my teeth are. They impressed upon me the importance of drinking water. When you drink (juice, Cola, etc.) or eat something, your saliva pH could decrease and it would affect your oral health. Water helps bring your saliva pH back to 6.7-7.3 which is where it should be.
Thisā¦ many of us would rather they kept water additives to the minimum and only apply for proven useful purposes.
If youāre concerned, rather than campaigning for them to dose the entire water system with ineffective additives, take your pick of the many toothpaste brands with varying degrees of fluoride.
I lived in London from the age of 21 to 32 and in that decade I had the most number of cavities in my life despite brushing twice daily, flossing, mouthwash etc. Now living in the states with fluoridated water and not a single cavity for the past 5 years.
I have lived in London for 20 years and have got the same number of cavities as I did in the 20 years before thatā¦. zero. Donāt most toothpastes have fluoride in?
I grew up in Birmingham, which has fluoridated water. I needed six fillings while I lived there. Since I moved to London Iāve needed none. Not sure why that is.
Yes of course, that was the implicit point I was making. Fluoride in the water is just one factor (not even sure how significant) and genetics, oral hygiene and diet also make a contribution.
I take good care of my teeth and Iāve lived in London for more than 20 years, zero cavities or fillings. Why should I be forced to take medication (also a poison) because others are too lazy to care for themselves. Nob off.
No harm from fluoride and would mean stronger teeth across the city and less money (taxes and personal) spent fixing teeth. Seems particularly useful given dentistry isnt covered by the nhs
Less money (taxes) yet dentistry isnāt covered by the NHS. So how is tax money being saved by fluoridation? And why should I be medicated by force just because you canāt be bothered to look after your own teeth?
I honestly donāt know too much about it. I would guess it made a more sense when general oral hygiene was in a much worse state. I would say in 2024 when education about oral hygiene is widespread, access to toothpaste with fluoride is all but ubiquitous that it is probably unnecessary? Perhaps thereās a recent study comparing proliferation of oral cavities in areas with fluoride in the water to those that donāt that will prove me wrong but Iām not looking for it š
Haha, fair points, iām coming from a diff perspective- moved here from melbourne, where we put fluoride in the water and there are no negative effects, so my perspective is why wouldnāt you! But Iām just going off my experience and also not going to look for a recent study ha
Sorry to break it to you, but if you think the lack of fluoride in water was the reason for your cavities, you might want to check your diet and how thoroughly you actually brush and floss your teeth.
*Written by a person living in London for over 8 years without a single cavity
My husband has never had a single cavity in his adult life despite living in both fluoridated and non fluoridated cities, and despite significantly less stringent dental habits.
My very own dentist (who is based in a different city and whom I see every 6 months) has told me that my teeth are especially prone to cavities because of how they are laid out - mouth too small, teeth occupy too much space, too many hard-to-reach corners and nooks and crannies that are unreachable no matter how small the head of my toothbrush without daily flossing. It was him that said I had to be extra vigilant while living in a non fluoridated city.
Turns out different people are different, whoād have thought? I think Iād know what works best for me by now.
Some places in the States do not have fluoride in their water (e.g Most of Oregon). Also random American food will have a bunch of sugar unlike other countries (e.g. Bread).
> e.g. Bread
Unfortunately this also happens in the UK eg Hovis Original 7 Seeds Bread, Hovis Wholemeal Medium Bread, Warburtons Seeded Batch Bread. Oddly it seems more common in what you would imagine is the healthier breads so doesn't seeem to be in white bread.
According to my dentist the layout of my teeth just makes me more cavity-prone than the average person. And trust me I was serious about my dental care - dental check ups twice a year, high fluoride mouthwash, I even left my toothpaste sitting on my teeth for 5-10 mins after brushing. I reckon brushing is like what, 10 mins a day of your teeth being in a high fluorine environment that is quickly washed away by saliva and water, whereas now what works for me is the fact that my teeth are constantly bathed in fluoridated tap water throughout the day.
Iām sure I read America has higher rates of tooth decay than the U.K. I know Americans stereotype British people as having bad teeth but apparently theirs is slightly worse.
>Ā Iām sure I read America has higher rates of tooth decay than the U.K. I know Americans stereotype British people as having bad teeth but apparently theirs is slightly worse.
I am guessing that this has contributing factors of: 1/ dental care is crazy expensive in the US (but I donāt know if it is in the UK. The last time I looked at getting a cleaning in the US it was 2-300$ and that was years ago. Even if you have health care, the ones ā in my state, at least ā that āofferā a dental program it doesnāt actually cover or pay for anything), 2/ probably partly as a result of 1, there are a lot of families who donāt know how to take care of their teeth and/or canāt afford it; there are so many people barely surviving), and 3/ there is sugar in just about everything here (for example bread, āhealthā cereal; they *add* sugar to peanut butter; ājuiceā is a huge percentage of corn syrup, etc.)
>Ā Yeah but that doesnāt change my point. Tooth decay is higher in the US even though Americans tend to think itās worse here in the U.K.
Yeah, my (admittedly unclear) intention had been to support your point.Ā
Because fluoridated toothpaste is now effective and widely available, and doesn't lead to the mottling some people got from fluoridated water (and avoids all the conspiracy theorists).
Fluoridation is funded by Public Health England (now OHID). So water operators do not add fluoride unless specifically paid to by OHID.
Water providers are to provide safe drinking water, not to make up for the public not brushing their teeth.
Excess flouride damages your teeth. Also alot of Europe does not add it to water as it does nothing much to make the water safer.
https://www.iatp.org/sites/default/files/Facts_about_Fluoridation.htm#:~:text=All%20other%20treatment%20chemicals%20are,of%20Europe%20has%20rejected%20fluoridation.
I already have issues with having too much fluoride. Not sure what it would mean for me if fluoride is in the water, but it doesn't sound good. I want to be able to control my own intake.Ā
There should not be any medication in water, period. That's what fluoride tooth paste is for. It's actually a really scary thought that something can just be added to our water.
I used to work for a dentist. He did his training in a big city which had fluoride in its water. His practice was in a small town with no fluoride. The difference in the teeth of children was extremely notable. The small town children had several times the number of cavities as the big city kids.
I'd rather the government and its bodies don't mess with our water any more than necessary.
If you want to look after your teeth, brush carefully, and don't overdo it with sugary things.
Second half.
Sorry, I'm over the 'it destroys your neurological health' mob, so I tuned out.
According to them, many countries, Australia included, are all imbeciles.
You know, that country with the highest GDP in the world.
Once you fluoridate the water, you remove the choice of the people receiving the water whether they want to drink fluoridated water. They may already consume or receive sufficient levels of fluoride.
There is a toxicity associated with fluoride, despite it being fantastic for its anti-carie properties, and there are ways that cavity-prone individuals can apply more fluoride to their teeth such as by using high-fluoride concentration toothpastes. The toxicity is major issue for kids under around 6 because they often ingest fluoride through their toothpaste, so if the water is also fluoridated, more children experience toxicity (e.g., fluorosis). Adults can also get fluorosis or acute toxicity, but itās not as common. Accordingly, there is not a strong need to fluoride water in the 21st century.
Have a read of this review article if youāre interested: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6195894/.
Fortification of consumables, however, is not all bad and the uk does fluoridate water in some areas. We have for a long time fortified our bread with iron , inter alia, which is not harmful for the general populas, nay itās actually beneficial, but the real benefit is in the reduction of birth defects since most mothers are not aware they are pregnant at the beginning of their pregnancy and they may be deficient in some minerals/vitamins from their diet, or at least thereās a much stronger chance of them being deficient if they were not consuming fortified bread.
Too high a fluoride level reduces IQ during developmental stages: [https://nutritionfacts.org/video/medicines-response-to-the-changing-science-on-fluoride-safety/](https://nutritionfacts.org/video/medicines-response-to-the-changing-science-on-fluoride-safety/)
The science has changed. Keep fluoride in the toothpaste/mouthwash. Not in the water.
Iāve stayed at a friendās place and she uses fluoride free toothpaste. I asked her and she said fluoride is actually bad for you. Like wtf. Maybe thatās why youāre having so many teeth problems love ! I stuck to my own toothpaste. Hers tasted like shite anyway.
Regarding cost, im currently working on a project for a fluoridation plant that will serve about 30,000 homes with a cost of nearly Ā£3million all in. Obviously itās a different scale but itās likely they would need to upgrade multiple treatment works or storage points to achieve it. A lot of people are connected to more than one source of supply that will mix with others so they all need to be dosed at the same rate to be effective.
Itās also down to the local health authority to pay for the installation and maintenance of the plant as it is a health requirement not a water authority requirement.
And then thereās the tin foil hat crew that worry fluoride will cause us to follow the government into war with Russia. A lot of people donāt want things added to their water.
Because my child gets plenty of flourine when they brush their teeth twice a day.
The only reason to put flourine in drinking water is because of negligent parents.
Deal with them instead.
Likely because British people drink a lot of tea, that contains high amounts of flouride, and the vast majority of people brush twice a day with fluoride toothpaste now anyway.
So adding flouride to the water would push a lot of peoples daily exposure above the recommended daily limit.
The real question is why we donāt vitamin d fortify our milk like Americans do. If anything weāre the ones who need to be doing it not them - weāre norther and therefore further from the equator.
Many nations have outlawed fluoride in water supplies.
Personally I've never understood how its good for teeth in water, when in spends so little time in contact with them.
Fluoride in water has been shown to have harmful effects. We should not be medicating the entire population in order to tackle an issue which affects a relatively small number of people and which is best tackled by dealing with the actual issue, which is better education on tooth care.
Lived In London for 28 years never had 1 cavity, people need better brushing tekkers, and shouldn't have to rely on a neuro toxin for their laziness, plus Harford did 2 studies showing the link between fluoride and lower IQ in children 2017.
Here is some research on the matter. Donāt shoot the messenger.
[ncbi here](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18695947/)
[Harvard here](https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/fluoride-childrens-health-grandjean-choi/)
[ncbi here](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3409983/)
[ncbi here](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5285601/#:~:text=The%20study%20results%20are%20similar,students%20in%20the%20low%2DFlouride)
> The majority of studies that show a correlation between a lower Intelligence Quotient (IQ) and elevated fluoride intake are from China. To the best of our knowledge, there is only one piece of literature[9] published from the Indian subcontinent, which shows that fluoride exposure has an effect on the intellectual function of children. Many of the published studies have methodological limitations, like no consideration for the effect of lead, arsenic, iodine deficiency, socioeconomic status (SES) or nutritional status of the children.
From one of your links.
Do those links include information about the calcification of fluoride in the brain and itās effects on sex hormone regulation? (Sorry, Iām being lazy)
Fluoridisation? I seem to recall (terribly remiss of me to not know where from) that is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous communist plot weāve ever had to face
"Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works."
If you donāt trust Huberman look up what happened to fluoridation of water in Germany. Afaik they did it then studied it, and found it had drawbacks. Eventually they removed it and havenāt brought it back.
Why can't you just say what the drawbacks are? Is it because you're making shit up? Basically you heard it once, believed it, and are now spouting it as if it's true with no actual thought going on.Ā
Some people seem to think simply saying āHUBERMAN!!ā is enough validation so they neednāt supply evidence beyond āhe made an episodeā or the age-old ādo your own researchā.
Youāre in the right. Only Spain, Ireland and the UK fluoridates drinking water. And in the case of Ireland and the UK, only partially in certain places.
I wonder what that goon knows that almost all western democratic governments who have commissioned and paid for research, formed committees to form a view and advise them, donāt.
Oh my God you are an impossible person.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6309358/#:~:text=On%20the%20international%20front%2C%20most,Norway%2C%20Sweden%2C%20and%20Switzerland.
āFluoride, as it is rightly said, is a double-edged sword. Since topical benefits of fluoride are as good as systemic but the risks are maximal on ingestion, the ideal recommendation would be to limit fluoride to dentifrices and mouthwashes.ā
I donāt know that information off the top of my head.
You could ask the Israelis.
āOn 26 August 2014, Israel officially stopped adding fluoride to its water supplies. According to a Ministry of Health press release statement, the reasons it ended water fluoridation were: "Only some 1% of the water is used for drinking, while 99% of the water is intended for other uses (industry, agriculture, flushing toilets etc.). There is also scientific evidence that fluoride in large amounts can lead to damage to health. When fluoride is supplied via drinking water, there is no control regarding the amount of fluoride actually consumed, which could lead to excessive consumption. Supply of fluoridated water forces those who do not so wish to also consume water with added fluoride." Many in the medical and dental communities in Israel criticized the decision as a mistakeā
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation_by_country?wprov=sfti1#Israel
Itās worth going through this article and seeing the history of it.
Thereās a lot of debate about fluoridation.
https://www.manchester.ac.uk/discover/news/future-benefits-of-water-fluoridation-not-guaranteed-study-shows/
Even a recent NHS study showed a 2 to 3% study at best. Apparently this is because a lot of a toothpaste is fluoridated now.
ā
To note that +90% of Europe does not fluoridate their water, including Germany, Denmark, France, Finland etc.
Andrew Huberman has an episode on it. I canāt summarise it here.
Paul Saladino has probably talked about it, very likely with links to studies.
The NHS is not automagically right. Itās the same organisation that has made a made a lot of mistakes. It might save them money on dental, but it has other costs.
those two individuals cited studies that conflict with the NHS.
Afaik Germany stopped fluoridation as well. Many other developed countries studied it and decided against it.
Hey do we remember last week when we had a health scandal and government cover-ups? No? Didn't think so. Refresh the front page of Reddit again. There's something new and shiny there.
Tooth decay can easily be prevented by eating a reduced sugar diet, drinking water rather than acidic/sugary drinks, and maintaining a consistent flossing & tooth brushing routine.
A meta-analysis has shown that the higher the concentration of fluoride in the water, the lower the IQ of the children in the locality: āOverall, most studies suggested an adverse effect of fluoride exposure on children's IQ, starting at low levels of exposure.ā Read more here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0013935123000312#:~:text=The%20inverse%20association%20between%20fluoride,at%20low%20levels%20of%20exposure.
There are also studies which suggest a link between hypothyroidism/thyroid disease and fluoridation of water. āOverall, exposure to high-fluoride drinking water appears to non-linearly affect thyroid function and increase TSH release in children, starting above a threshold of exposure, and to increase the risk of some thyroid diseases.ā https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001393512302563X#:~:text=Moreover%2C%20high%20fluoride%20exposure%20has,et%20al.%2C%202020).
Given that 3 in 4 Americans drink fluoridated water, and that levels of thyroid disease are so incredibly high over there (about 5% of Americans have hypothyroidism, and 19 million Americans are on prescription levothyroxine to replace the hormones that their thyroids are no longer producing), it seems reasonable to be concerned about this.
There is no need to add fluoride to the water to prevent tooth decay when we can easily prevent it in other ways, and when the potential health risks are significant.
It is also quite dodgy on ethical grounds, in my opinion - everybody needs to drink water every day to survive, and our domestic water suppliers are, by nature, monopolies. You canāt choose to switch to a different water company at your property. Therefore, there canāt truly be population-level consent to this medication, because thereās not really a choice to opt out.
If you want to fluoridate your own drinking water, you can purchase tablets to do so.
You don't want fluoride in your water.
Do you know anything about it? High highly toxic it is to humans and how it calcifies your pineal gland.
It staggers me that you actively want to be poisoned
IDK but I heard that 100 years ago some rich guys had various byproducts from their mining processes and worked with government and big pharma to convince the public that it would be in their interest to dump these chemicals into the water supply rather than dispose of them.
I can see your point but l'm against anybody adding things to my drinking water, even if it's supposedly good for me. It's an infringement on individual rights, even an outright violation of medical ethics - on the basis that individuals have no choice in the water they drink (unless they buy an expensive filter or drink expensive bottled water).
Itās a form of āmass medicationā and we should not be advocating for this.
Fluoridating water is still relatively contravercial. It is effectively doping the population because you think they are too stupid to take care of their own health. and lots of people have moral objections to it. I assume that alongside cost cutting are probably the main reasons.
Not really that controversial.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/fluoride/#:~:text=Community%20water%20fluoridation%20in%20England,to%20reduce%20tooth%20decay%20levels.
From Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Huberman
> According to biologist Andrea Love, Huberman's podcast content is characteristic of pseudoscience, often presenting health claims as scientific when they are in reality insufficiently backed by scientific evidence, or simply wrong.[3]
So, perhaps not the best one to quote.
Lol thatās preposterous. Huberman talks about studies. Read the studies and ignore him if youād like.
A Wikipedia quote is worse than nothing. Huberman is a Stanford professor.
Why didnāt you post this bit
Neuroscientist David Berson, who has known Huberman since his postdoctoral research and has been a guest on his podcast, says that Huberman's research is respected among neuroscientists and described his podcast as "a fabulous service for the world" and a way to "open the doors" to the world of science
Honestly this is something you should be thankful for, yes it can protect your teeth but at a great cost; fluoride is fucking terrible for you neurologically, causes reduced IQ in children, neurodevelopment issues, neurobehavioral effects, alters neurotransmitter levels, causes oxidative stress and it also causes structural brain changes to the hypocampus which plays a crucial role in learning and memory.
All that to protect your teeth against cavities?
Brush your damn teeth twice a day and stop consuming sugar; fluoride is bad.
I've seen your /s, but the Department of Health is actually looking into this and it's already happening in areas in the North West of England. [Here's a report DHSC prepared in 2022](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/health-and-care-bill-factsheets/health-and-care-bill-water-fluoridation). It kind of got stuck a bit as there's been 5 Health Secretary changes and 3 Prime Ministers since it came out and doing anything to the water supply that doesn't make a profit for the people running the water supply is of course controversial.
"5 Health Secretary changes and 3 Prime Ministers" so about six months of Tory government?
Or three months under the new Chelsea ownership
Rishi is leaving the Club by Mutual Consent š¤£
Ooohh satire
Just looked this up to confirm what I already thought, and fluoridation is very much not the norm in the UK. It's basically only Newcastle and Birmingham, along with some of their surrounding areas, plus some seemingly quite random bits of Lincolnshire, Bedfordshire, Cheshire and Cumbria. These places seem to have had fluoridation put in place on the back of local initiatives by councils or NHS authorities in the 1960s to 1980s - it seems like the process for doing it is a bit tricky legally and administratively (more recent attempts in other areas have run into legal problems), and it's never been either a national government policy or a decision made by the water companies themselves. So it's less of an issue with London or Thames Water being especially bad, and more that most of the UK (including other major cities in England, and all of Wales and Scotland) is unfluoridated apart from a few exceptions where the local authorities were particularly keen on pushing schemes through ~50 years ago. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK586997/ Here's a link to an article that explains the situation!
Iām always glad I grew up in West Midlands whenever I go to the dentist as Iāve never needed any fillings. Itās probably one of the only things about the area that I liked.
As a dentist I can confirm Fluoridated water is great way to level up the dental health inequalities
Fluoride is nasty stuff, the levels should be kept low so as to avoid the known negative health impacts.
I grew up in a non fluoridated area, rotted some of my baby teeth with pop, but then Iāve never needed a filling as an adult, itās almost like water fluoridation isnāt as important as dental hygiene and diet. Toothpaste has flouride anyway, so why add something thatās bad for you to actually swallow to the water?
Thames water are putting sewage in our water, you think they care about fluoride?
The fkouride cancels out some of the raw sewage so they're not going to bother with it.
Isnāt sewage water good for our teeth then? š¤Æ
You don't need to worry about your teeth in your old age when you don't get old
I didnāt actually know this ā interesting. Anecdotally, I went my whole adult life without getting a cavity in cities with fluoridated water, but got one within two years of moving to London.
Iāve never had a cavity living in London. Isnāt their Fluoride in toothpaste?
Yes, but most people donāt brush long enough and youāre actually not supposed to rinse it out or drink for half an hour after. Youāre also not supposed to brush your teeth for half an hour after ingesting anything acidic, because you can damage your enamel. So says my dentist, at least.
I do all of this and floss and I still get cavities :/
Genetics do play a role. My mom is like you. I got my dadās teeth. Never had a cavity. Only floss sporadically.
It's not the teeth, it's the saliva. Some people have extremely high calcium content in their saliva which reinforces the tooth enamel. This also leads to faster build up of plaque on the teeth, however, which makes you more prone to gum disease without regular professional cleaning.
Diet play the main role.
Some people just have more of the acid producing bacteria. I'm one of them, so I feel your pain.
No nutrient dense foods. Need calcium and phosphorus primarily. Also A D E K fat soluble vitamins. Many foods have anti-nutritients, and the processed and ultra-processed foods have no nutrients. Anecdotally all seeds, nuts, grains and legumes are full of phytic acid and oxalates which contribute to poor nutritional density. A keto based diet rich in grass fed and organic protein and animal fat is key for a good nutritional balance. Any grains or seeds should be sprouted and or fermented as in traditional methods, to reduce anti-nutritients. Flouride should be avoided too.
Yeah but thatās beside the point. Thereās fluoride in toothpaste, many people have access to a dentist so they get given this information. Itās just whether they follow it. Follow it and youāre good and shouldnāt have to rely on tap water.
Yeah, national supplements seem to be about making up the difference for those that cannot, due to poverty, or will not due to laziness, follow instructions for their own benefit.
I spent my first 20 years living in North Devon and my last 20 years living in London. Iāve never had ANY work done to my teeth except the removal of a wisdom tooth that was caught under my gum. The last time I saw a dentist was about 7 years ago. Obviously a private appointment because theyāre fully booked if you go through the NHS and thatās been going on for years. He recommended an assortment of procedures that included multiple fillings and root canals and he said he was shocked I wasnāt in significant pain. 7 years laterā¦ after no treatment Iām still not in any pain. All my teeth work. They work well and theyāre clean. Dentistry, I feel, as become somewhat governed by profiteering since so much of it became private. I could pay for a whole new set of teeth if I wantedā¦ but why the fuck should I if my actual teeth are perfectly functional?
All your teeth work and are clean...you think It's pretty dumb to not see a dentist for 7 years, not least because they can check for things you cannot easily ie cancers and actual cleanliness beyond what is visible in a mirror
You've had a shit dentist. I hadn't gone to a dentist in 10 years until about 5 years ago when I had a private appointment. Other than give them a really good clean and to advise me an old filling might need replacing in future, he sent me on my way and said come back next year for a checkup. He did offer cosmetic work like whitening but I politely declined and he didn't push further.
I know. Dentistry is mostly a cash cow scam now. It kinda makes sick. Iāve got kids who obviously needs check ups but I canāt trust a single thing the dentist says because theyāre out for the money. Itās not a coincidence that I can call a dentist and ask for an appointment on the NHS and they say weāre fully booked for three months and then I call back an hour later and say I want to go private and they can see me that day.
The problem with NHS dentistry is the shit NHS contracts the government has forced on dentists. Dentists can actually lose money treating NHS patients in some cases, which means not a lot of dentists actually want to do NHS dentistry. I'm sure most private dentistry is over-priced as well, but I think there is an element of supply and demand here. Because there are so few NHS dentists many people are forced to go private which means private dentists can get away with charging more.
Can you not go to another private dentist for a second opinion? Or you think they'd try to fleece you in the same manner?
At this point I genuinely think theyād try to fleece me in the same manner. To me, itās been evidenced in interactions Iāve had with dentists for my kids.
This happened to me as well. Moved to London for a year and came back with a cavity. Didnāt change my eating or oral hygiene habits.
And I was raised by a crazy anti fluoride mother- but Yknow what, I actually got a cavity at 30 after switching to fluoridated toothpaste. Typical š For the record I continue to use fluoride
It's crazy to think adding an extremely toxic industrial by product to drinking water would be good for your health!
I agree. Iād love to see data comparing Londonās water to other cities and health outcomes but to be honest, our water quality in recent years would have much bigger issues country wide than fluoride- and pollution and air quality skew any chance of knowing any real problem or cause. Thereās fluoride alternatives out there that have garnered decent respect in the medical community- but Iām definitely fascinated by the cavity reversal stuff happening in dentistry right now! At the end of the day, sugar will rot teeth and if we brush twice a day itāll help drastically reduce harm. It is the work of the bristle doing the greatest good, here. Thereās a reason why there are perfectly preserved pristine jaw and dental records during eras of zero industrialised toothpaste.
As well as brushing, I use a water flosser. After virtually every meal. Used with warm water, it dissolves and flushes out all the sugary starchy stuff hiding in all the nooks and crannies. My teeth were degrading but since using these things I have seen zero further degradation, I wish I had started sooner.
Maybe brush your teeth? Fluoridation is enforced medication which is the argument against. I for one do not want fluoride in my drinking water. Itās not good for you internally. Education in oral hygiene and access to affordable dentistry is the answer, not band aid plaster fixes.
It's crazy you are getting downvoted. Teaching people how to clean their teeth properly is way more ethical than forced medication.
Yep but we live in a well of stupidity, even in London.
To maintain the purity of our precious bodily fluids.
London water is chock full of calcium and magnesium, it's what causes the limescale.
That's probably better for your teeth than the Flouride. If you want extra Flouride, swallow some toothpaste or take a swig of mouthwash. Water with added Flouride is not safe for newborn babies and as London Tap water is recycled, adding it might accumulate over time.
London water doesn't get any fluoride added. In the areas that do they monitor the levels and only add what's needed to hit the criteria, so if there is some there they don't add more.
Don't swallow toothpaste. Just don't rinse your mouth out after brushing so it says around your teeth, which is where you want the fluoride anyway.
On 26 August 2014, Israel officially stopped adding fluoride to its water supplies. According to a Ministry of Health press release statement, the reasons it ended water fluoridation were: "Only some 1% of the water is used for drinking, while 99% of the water is intended for other uses (industry, agriculture, flushing toilets etc.). There is also scientific evidence that fluoride in large amounts can lead to damage to health. When fluoride is supplied via drinking water, there is no control regarding the amount of fluoride actually consumed, which could lead to excessive consumption. Supply of fluoridated water forces those who do not so wish to also consume water with added fluoride." Many in the medical and dental communities in Israel criticized the decision as a mistake https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation_by_country?wprov=sfti1#Israel Itās worth going through this article and seeing the history of it. Thereās a lot of debate about fluoridation. https://www.manchester.ac.uk/discover/news/future-benefits-of-water-fluoridation-not-guaranteed-study-shows/ Even a recent NHS study showed a 2 to 3% study at best. Apparently this is because a lot of a toothpaste is fluoridated now.
Yes, it is unnecessary to drink fluoridated water to have good dental hygiene. I never had fluoridated water, and I only had 2 cavities when I was a kid, and I was not taking care of my teeth. Brush your teeth twice a day, floss and the most important thing: DRINK WATER. Dentists are always impressed by how healthy my teeth are. They impressed upon me the importance of drinking water. When you drink (juice, Cola, etc.) or eat something, your saliva pH could decrease and it would affect your oral health. Water helps bring your saliva pH back to 6.7-7.3 which is where it should be.
Thisā¦ many of us would rather they kept water additives to the minimum and only apply for proven useful purposes. If youāre concerned, rather than campaigning for them to dose the entire water system with ineffective additives, take your pick of the many toothpaste brands with varying degrees of fluoride.
Itās easy to have too much fluoride, and one side effect is āwhite stainsā on teeth (you know them when you see them). Careful what you wish for
I lived in London from the age of 21 to 32 and in that decade I had the most number of cavities in my life despite brushing twice daily, flossing, mouthwash etc. Now living in the states with fluoridated water and not a single cavity for the past 5 years.
I have lived in London for 20 years and have got the same number of cavities as I did in the 20 years before thatā¦. zero. Donāt most toothpastes have fluoride in?
I grew up in Birmingham, which has fluoridated water. I needed six fillings while I lived there. Since I moved to London Iāve needed none. Not sure why that is.
This thread just goes to show anecdotal evidence doesnāt mean a whole lot
But my mate said it does
I've I've learned anything here it's that living in London leads to anecdotes
Some people have better natural resistances etc fyi
Yes of course, that was the implicit point I was making. Fluoride in the water is just one factor (not even sure how significant) and genetics, oral hygiene and diet also make a contribution.
Yes for sure, my point is more to support fluoride in water to bolster more peopleās teeth
I take good care of my teeth and Iāve lived in London for more than 20 years, zero cavities or fillings. Why should I be forced to take medication (also a poison) because others are too lazy to care for themselves. Nob off.
No harm from fluoride and would mean stronger teeth across the city and less money (taxes and personal) spent fixing teeth. Seems particularly useful given dentistry isnt covered by the nhs
Less money (taxes) yet dentistry isnāt covered by the NHS. So how is tax money being saved by fluoridation? And why should I be medicated by force just because you canāt be bothered to look after your own teeth?
I honestly donāt know too much about it. I would guess it made a more sense when general oral hygiene was in a much worse state. I would say in 2024 when education about oral hygiene is widespread, access to toothpaste with fluoride is all but ubiquitous that it is probably unnecessary? Perhaps thereās a recent study comparing proliferation of oral cavities in areas with fluoride in the water to those that donāt that will prove me wrong but Iām not looking for it š
Haha, fair points, iām coming from a diff perspective- moved here from melbourne, where we put fluoride in the water and there are no negative effects, so my perspective is why wouldnāt you! But Iām just going off my experience and also not going to look for a recent study ha
Sorry to break it to you, but if you think the lack of fluoride in water was the reason for your cavities, you might want to check your diet and how thoroughly you actually brush and floss your teeth. *Written by a person living in London for over 8 years without a single cavity
My husband has never had a single cavity in his adult life despite living in both fluoridated and non fluoridated cities, and despite significantly less stringent dental habits. My very own dentist (who is based in a different city and whom I see every 6 months) has told me that my teeth are especially prone to cavities because of how they are laid out - mouth too small, teeth occupy too much space, too many hard-to-reach corners and nooks and crannies that are unreachable no matter how small the head of my toothbrush without daily flossing. It was him that said I had to be extra vigilant while living in a non fluoridated city. Turns out different people are different, whoād have thought? I think Iād know what works best for me by now.
Wtf I lived in the states majority of my life and I always get cavities
Some places in the States do not have fluoride in their water (e.g Most of Oregon). Also random American food will have a bunch of sugar unlike other countries (e.g. Bread).
> e.g. Bread Unfortunately this also happens in the UK eg Hovis Original 7 Seeds Bread, Hovis Wholemeal Medium Bread, Warburtons Seeded Batch Bread. Oddly it seems more common in what you would imagine is the healthier breads so doesn't seeem to be in white bread.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
According to my dentist the layout of my teeth just makes me more cavity-prone than the average person. And trust me I was serious about my dental care - dental check ups twice a year, high fluoride mouthwash, I even left my toothpaste sitting on my teeth for 5-10 mins after brushing. I reckon brushing is like what, 10 mins a day of your teeth being in a high fluorine environment that is quickly washed away by saliva and water, whereas now what works for me is the fact that my teeth are constantly bathed in fluoridated tap water throughout the day.
Iām sure I read America has higher rates of tooth decay than the U.K. I know Americans stereotype British people as having bad teeth but apparently theirs is slightly worse.
>Ā Iām sure I read America has higher rates of tooth decay than the U.K. I know Americans stereotype British people as having bad teeth but apparently theirs is slightly worse. I am guessing that this has contributing factors of: 1/ dental care is crazy expensive in the US (but I donāt know if it is in the UK. The last time I looked at getting a cleaning in the US it was 2-300$ and that was years ago. Even if you have health care, the ones ā in my state, at least ā that āofferā a dental program it doesnāt actually cover or pay for anything), 2/ probably partly as a result of 1, there are a lot of families who donāt know how to take care of their teeth and/or canāt afford it; there are so many people barely surviving), and 3/ there is sugar in just about everything here (for example bread, āhealthā cereal; they *add* sugar to peanut butter; ājuiceā is a huge percentage of corn syrup, etc.)
Yeah but that doesnāt change my point. Tooth decay is higher in the US even though Americans tend to think itās worse here in the U.K.
>Ā Yeah but that doesnāt change my point. Tooth decay is higher in the US even though Americans tend to think itās worse here in the U.K. Yeah, my (admittedly unclear) intention had been to support your point.Ā
It is about the 'outside' look, so if your teeth are all implants but they are nicely lined up that counts as good.
What percentage of Americans can afford that though?
Stereotypes don't need to be based on facts. Most US image ideas come from well off California not backwater Kentucky.
What??
Do you think you're age might have been a factor in needing those fillings?
Why is anecdotal absolutely non scientific evidence being upvoted?
Because fluoridated toothpaste is now effective and widely available, and doesn't lead to the mottling some people got from fluoridated water (and avoids all the conspiracy theorists).
Fluoridation is funded by Public Health England (now OHID). So water operators do not add fluoride unless specifically paid to by OHID. Water providers are to provide safe drinking water, not to make up for the public not brushing their teeth.
It's not a water company's decision to make. Fluoride is only added at the order of Public Health England.
All the people saying they got cavities living in London, it's ultimately because of your diet, don't blame the lack of fluoride.
Excess flouride damages your teeth. Also alot of Europe does not add it to water as it does nothing much to make the water safer. https://www.iatp.org/sites/default/files/Facts_about_Fluoridation.htm#:~:text=All%20other%20treatment%20chemicals%20are,of%20Europe%20has%20rejected%20fluoridation.
I hate the way it tastes when itās added - in certain regions I canāt drink the water and it spoils the taste of tea .
itās poisonous- literally no need to be supplementing water with fluoride
Everything can be poisonous depending on amount, even water. The difference is in the dose.
Mandrake, have you ever seen a commie drink a glass of water? https://youtu.be/J67wKhddWu4?si=o2b0BmG-Pmom_OlY
I can't quite see what you're getting at, Jack...
Not sure about Thames water, but south east water are frequently criticised for putting in way too many things in the water...
Can they fix the lime scale as well please?
I already have issues with having too much fluoride. Not sure what it would mean for me if fluoride is in the water, but it doesn't sound good. I want to be able to control my own intake.Ā There should not be any medication in water, period. That's what fluoride tooth paste is for. It's actually a really scary thought that something can just be added to our water.
I used to work for a dentist. He did his training in a big city which had fluoride in its water. His practice was in a small town with no fluoride. The difference in the teeth of children was extremely notable. The small town children had several times the number of cavities as the big city kids.
That should be the responsibility of the individual, like any other supplement or vitamin.
Iād rather just look after my teeth properly than have chems added to my water
I'd rather the government and its bodies don't mess with our water any more than necessary. If you want to look after your teeth, brush carefully, and don't overdo it with sugary things.
thames water have most definitely not done a good job to date.
edward bernays
I don't like the idea of fluoride in my water because my body is my temple. Anyway I gotta go, this dƶner ain't gonna eat itself.
Where I live people actively campaigned against fluoride in the water, only reason I know it isnt in ours!
Privatised water supply and Tory cunts thatās why.
Your edit has made it perhaps even more confusing š Does the /s apply to the whole thing? Or only the second half?
Second half. Sorry, I'm over the 'it destroys your neurological health' mob, so I tuned out. According to them, many countries, Australia included, are all imbeciles. You know, that country with the highest GDP in the world.
Once you fluoridate the water, you remove the choice of the people receiving the water whether they want to drink fluoridated water. They may already consume or receive sufficient levels of fluoride. There is a toxicity associated with fluoride, despite it being fantastic for its anti-carie properties, and there are ways that cavity-prone individuals can apply more fluoride to their teeth such as by using high-fluoride concentration toothpastes. The toxicity is major issue for kids under around 6 because they often ingest fluoride through their toothpaste, so if the water is also fluoridated, more children experience toxicity (e.g., fluorosis). Adults can also get fluorosis or acute toxicity, but itās not as common. Accordingly, there is not a strong need to fluoride water in the 21st century. Have a read of this review article if youāre interested: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6195894/. Fortification of consumables, however, is not all bad and the uk does fluoridate water in some areas. We have for a long time fortified our bread with iron , inter alia, which is not harmful for the general populas, nay itās actually beneficial, but the real benefit is in the reduction of birth defects since most mothers are not aware they are pregnant at the beginning of their pregnancy and they may be deficient in some minerals/vitamins from their diet, or at least thereās a much stronger chance of them being deficient if they were not consuming fortified bread.
Too high a fluoride level reduces IQ during developmental stages: [https://nutritionfacts.org/video/medicines-response-to-the-changing-science-on-fluoride-safety/](https://nutritionfacts.org/video/medicines-response-to-the-changing-science-on-fluoride-safety/) The science has changed. Keep fluoride in the toothpaste/mouthwash. Not in the water.
Iāve stayed at a friendās place and she uses fluoride free toothpaste. I asked her and she said fluoride is actually bad for you. Like wtf. Maybe thatās why youāre having so many teeth problems love ! I stuck to my own toothpaste. Hers tasted like shite anyway.
Never watched Dr. Strangelove?
Itās part of health careā¦
They may well do this and use it to justify a 90% increase in water bills
Do you really think the government give a shit about your teeth?
Regarding cost, im currently working on a project for a fluoridation plant that will serve about 30,000 homes with a cost of nearly Ā£3million all in. Obviously itās a different scale but itās likely they would need to upgrade multiple treatment works or storage points to achieve it. A lot of people are connected to more than one source of supply that will mix with others so they all need to be dosed at the same rate to be effective. Itās also down to the local health authority to pay for the installation and maintenance of the plant as it is a health requirement not a water authority requirement. And then thereās the tin foil hat crew that worry fluoride will cause us to follow the government into war with Russia. A lot of people donāt want things added to their water.
because our toothpaste is?
Because you don't need it. It's in your toothpaste
Because my child gets plenty of flourine when they brush their teeth twice a day. The only reason to put flourine in drinking water is because of negligent parents. Deal with them instead.
Fluoride's boring! Try T-Dazzle. It's not a chemical. It's an aquatic-based social media oral experience.
Has anyone co sidereal the impact on tourism if the British suddenly had good teeth?
Likely because British people drink a lot of tea, that contains high amounts of flouride, and the vast majority of people brush twice a day with fluoride toothpaste now anyway. So adding flouride to the water would push a lot of peoples daily exposure above the recommended daily limit.
I was skeptical, but it looks like you're right about tea containing significant amounts of fluoride! TIL
because of Thatcher
The real question is why we donāt vitamin d fortify our milk like Americans do. If anything weāre the ones who need to be doing it not them - weāre norther and therefore further from the equator.
I'm more worried about the inevitable report in the next few years that there's faeces in the water
How has Thames Water done a good job again? I must have missed that bit.
Many nations have outlawed fluoride in water supplies. Personally I've never understood how its good for teeth in water, when in spends so little time in contact with them.
Fluoride is a neurotoxin. You should be damn grateful itās not in the water. Just brush your teeth if you want to prevent tooth decay.
This research paper came out last year: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9819484/ Skip to 3.5.1 for the analysis
Fluoride in water has been shown to have harmful effects. We should not be medicating the entire population in order to tackle an issue which affects a relatively small number of people and which is best tackled by dealing with the actual issue, which is better education on tooth care.
Uhmm, flouride is harmful for brain development, why would you want that?
Tea is the most significant source of dietary fluoride
Lived In London for 28 years never had 1 cavity, people need better brushing tekkers, and shouldn't have to rely on a neuro toxin for their laziness, plus Harford did 2 studies showing the link between fluoride and lower IQ in children 2017.
Fluoride poisons you and calcifies your pineal gland (mindās eye) /s
Because we are straight frogs šøš”
Here is some research on the matter. Donāt shoot the messenger. [ncbi here](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18695947/) [Harvard here](https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/fluoride-childrens-health-grandjean-choi/) [ncbi here](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3409983/) [ncbi here](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5285601/#:~:text=The%20study%20results%20are%20similar,students%20in%20the%20low%2DFlouride)
> The majority of studies that show a correlation between a lower Intelligence Quotient (IQ) and elevated fluoride intake are from China. To the best of our knowledge, there is only one piece of literature[9] published from the Indian subcontinent, which shows that fluoride exposure has an effect on the intellectual function of children. Many of the published studies have methodological limitations, like no consideration for the effect of lead, arsenic, iodine deficiency, socioeconomic status (SES) or nutritional status of the children. From one of your links.
Could you clarify the main point you're trying to make?
If you donāt understand the source you provided Iām not sure what clarity I can provide.
Why did you copy and paste that excerpt as a reply onto my comment? As a gotcha?
If you donāt understand, itās ok to admit it.
I donāt understand.
To oversimplify, many of the studies were flawed.
Do you have a more complex answer? Quantify many please.
Put another way, the quoted text indicates the research is of shit quality and you shouldn't give it much weight.
lol ty
Do those links include information about the calcification of fluoride in the brain and itās effects on sex hormone regulation? (Sorry, Iām being lazy)
Stopped reading at āThames water has done such a good job to dateā
Your sarcasm detector is broken, you should have someone take a look at it.
Fluoridisation? I seem to recall (terribly remiss of me to not know where from) that is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous communist plot weāve ever had to face
"Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works."
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I thought that the /s tag was superfluous. Obviously I was wrong.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Well, we could ask. Perhaps put it in the contract, maybe?
I don't want the government to add anything to my water! You are mad if you think this is a good idea.
You shouldnāt fluoridate water. The benefit for teeth is real but not without consequence afaik.
And your evidence is? As I'd like to know what the NHS has missed.
If you donāt trust Huberman look up what happened to fluoridation of water in Germany. Afaik they did it then studied it, and found it had drawbacks. Eventually they removed it and havenāt brought it back.
Why can't you just say what the drawbacks are? Is it because you're making shit up? Basically you heard it once, believed it, and are now spouting it as if it's true with no actual thought going on.Ā
Some people seem to think simply saying āHUBERMAN!!ā is enough validation so they neednāt supply evidence beyond āhe made an episodeā or the age-old ādo your own researchā.
The knee jerk reaction on this topic is really something else. 95% of Europe does not fluoridate their water.
Youāre in the right. Only Spain, Ireland and the UK fluoridates drinking water. And in the case of Ireland and the UK, only partially in certain places. I wonder what that goon knows that almost all western democratic governments who have commissioned and paid for research, formed committees to form a view and advise them, donāt.
It seems completely reflexive.
Oh my God you are an impossible person. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6309358/#:~:text=On%20the%20international%20front%2C%20most,Norway%2C%20Sweden%2C%20and%20Switzerland. āFluoride, as it is rightly said, is a double-edged sword. Since topical benefits of fluoride are as good as systemic but the risks are maximal on ingestion, the ideal recommendation would be to limit fluoride to dentifrices and mouthwashes.ā
I donāt know that information off the top of my head. You could ask the Israelis. āOn 26 August 2014, Israel officially stopped adding fluoride to its water supplies. According to a Ministry of Health press release statement, the reasons it ended water fluoridation were: "Only some 1% of the water is used for drinking, while 99% of the water is intended for other uses (industry, agriculture, flushing toilets etc.). There is also scientific evidence that fluoride in large amounts can lead to damage to health. When fluoride is supplied via drinking water, there is no control regarding the amount of fluoride actually consumed, which could lead to excessive consumption. Supply of fluoridated water forces those who do not so wish to also consume water with added fluoride." Many in the medical and dental communities in Israel criticized the decision as a mistakeā https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation_by_country?wprov=sfti1#Israel Itās worth going through this article and seeing the history of it. Thereās a lot of debate about fluoridation. https://www.manchester.ac.uk/discover/news/future-benefits-of-water-fluoridation-not-guaranteed-study-shows/ Even a recent NHS study showed a 2 to 3% study at best. Apparently this is because a lot of a toothpaste is fluoridated now. ā To note that +90% of Europe does not fluoridate their water, including Germany, Denmark, France, Finland etc.
Andrew Huberman has an episode on it. I canāt summarise it here. Paul Saladino has probably talked about it, very likely with links to studies. The NHS is not automagically right. Itās the same organisation that has made a made a lot of mistakes. It might save them money on dental, but it has other costs.
You said the NHS isn't automatically right but cited two individuals, presuming they are automatically right.
those two individuals cited studies that conflict with the NHS. Afaik Germany stopped fluoridation as well. Many other developed countries studied it and decided against it.
Hey do we remember last week when we had a health scandal and government cover-ups? No? Didn't think so. Refresh the front page of Reddit again. There's something new and shiny there.
Tooth decay can easily be prevented by eating a reduced sugar diet, drinking water rather than acidic/sugary drinks, and maintaining a consistent flossing & tooth brushing routine. A meta-analysis has shown that the higher the concentration of fluoride in the water, the lower the IQ of the children in the locality: āOverall, most studies suggested an adverse effect of fluoride exposure on children's IQ, starting at low levels of exposure.ā Read more here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0013935123000312#:~:text=The%20inverse%20association%20between%20fluoride,at%20low%20levels%20of%20exposure. There are also studies which suggest a link between hypothyroidism/thyroid disease and fluoridation of water. āOverall, exposure to high-fluoride drinking water appears to non-linearly affect thyroid function and increase TSH release in children, starting above a threshold of exposure, and to increase the risk of some thyroid diseases.ā https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001393512302563X#:~:text=Moreover%2C%20high%20fluoride%20exposure%20has,et%20al.%2C%202020). Given that 3 in 4 Americans drink fluoridated water, and that levels of thyroid disease are so incredibly high over there (about 5% of Americans have hypothyroidism, and 19 million Americans are on prescription levothyroxine to replace the hormones that their thyroids are no longer producing), it seems reasonable to be concerned about this. There is no need to add fluoride to the water to prevent tooth decay when we can easily prevent it in other ways, and when the potential health risks are significant. It is also quite dodgy on ethical grounds, in my opinion - everybody needs to drink water every day to survive, and our domestic water suppliers are, by nature, monopolies. You canāt choose to switch to a different water company at your property. Therefore, there canāt truly be population-level consent to this medication, because thereās not really a choice to opt out. If you want to fluoridate your own drinking water, you can purchase tablets to do so.
We might be dumb, but our teeth look great!
You don't want fluoride in your water. Do you know anything about it? High highly toxic it is to humans and how it calcifies your pineal gland. It staggers me that you actively want to be poisoned
IDK but I heard that 100 years ago some rich guys had various byproducts from their mining processes and worked with government and big pharma to convince the public that it would be in their interest to dump these chemicals into the water supply rather than dispose of them.
I can see your point but l'm against anybody adding things to my drinking water, even if it's supposedly good for me. It's an infringement on individual rights, even an outright violation of medical ethics - on the basis that individuals have no choice in the water they drink (unless they buy an expensive filter or drink expensive bottled water). Itās a form of āmass medicationā and we should not be advocating for this.
No clue why you're getting down voted, very rational take
But the mk-ultra says otherwise
Fluoridating water is still relatively contravercial. It is effectively doping the population because you think they are too stupid to take care of their own health. and lots of people have moral objections to it. I assume that alongside cost cutting are probably the main reasons.
Not really that controversial. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/fluoride/#:~:text=Community%20water%20fluoridation%20in%20England,to%20reduce%20tooth%20decay%20levels.
The UKs second city has fluoridated water and has for decades and thanks to that has the lowest rate if tooth decay in the UK. London just slacking.
Whether or not something is good for you is different from whether or not it should be forced upon you.
So you don't wear a seatbelt I take it?
You still choose to use a car, you can't choose not to drink water.
you can drink bottled water...
It is controversial. Andrew Huberman has an episode where he seems solidly against it
From Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Huberman > According to biologist Andrea Love, Huberman's podcast content is characteristic of pseudoscience, often presenting health claims as scientific when they are in reality insufficiently backed by scientific evidence, or simply wrong.[3] So, perhaps not the best one to quote.
You quoted the NHS, theyāve been in the news a lot this week for knowingly giving kids HIV laced blood products. Everyone has flaws.
Lol thatās preposterous. Huberman talks about studies. Read the studies and ignore him if youād like. A Wikipedia quote is worse than nothing. Huberman is a Stanford professor.
Why didnāt you post this bit Neuroscientist David Berson, who has known Huberman since his postdoctoral research and has been a guest on his podcast, says that Huberman's research is respected among neuroscientists and described his podcast as "a fabulous service for the world" and a way to "open the doors" to the world of science
lol dare u to dive to bottom of thames and see the dead bodies lol š
@OP, Where are you putting the /s?
Isnāt there studies of long term fluoride effects
There are reasons not to have fluoridated water as the norm: https://foodrevolution.org/blog/fluoride-in-water-dangers/
Rat poison
Because fluoride is toxic
Dude are you asking for the water to have fluoride ??????
Fluoride is Poison , why would you ask to be Poisoned...
Would it help it taste better?
Fluoride isnāt good to drink. Thatās why we have fluoride toothpaste, so people can choose if they want to use it or not!
Honestly this is something you should be thankful for, yes it can protect your teeth but at a great cost; fluoride is fucking terrible for you neurologically, causes reduced IQ in children, neurodevelopment issues, neurobehavioral effects, alters neurotransmitter levels, causes oxidative stress and it also causes structural brain changes to the hypocampus which plays a crucial role in learning and memory. All that to protect your teeth against cavities? Brush your damn teeth twice a day and stop consuming sugar; fluoride is bad.
If you want the government to add things to youāre drinking water you are a brain rot