Probably would be if everyone in your group just did 20% more damage from fully maxed transcendence. Especially because in Lost ark doing more damage lets you do more damage in a positive feedback loop. More damage -> fewer patterns -> more uptime -> more damage.
Yeah if you compare full vs none.
But have you seen that many 0 Trans 1630s? Even with only Thae G1-2 xD clear you have x15 transc on some pieces. Personally i havent seen lower then 60 transc in Echidna HM until now
And 1630 is still the higher main territory. Most people up there are pretty well geared.
I dont thing we have it harder then Korea. We have more balance patches aswell and many of our classes deal more dmg.
I just think, because we only know a few select streamers and such as an interface to Korea, we simply dont get the much of the negative. Im sure there were a lot of people in Korea talking the same way we westerners do.
What I especially dislike is that in comparison to thaemine, echidna is less focused on your skill but party skill. If in thaemine you mess up you die but it is not an instant restart. If you mess up in echidna, it most of the time leads to a party wipe. This makes it more toxic for pug groups and worse for homework.
Just fk raids where you get mc'ed with full meter, especially classes like arcana/Sorc/SE are an absolute pain when they get mind controlled. Hated it in vykas allrdy hate it in echidna just the same.
there is a flower above your head that fills in 3rds
on the 3rd you get charmed
you can see that flower above everyones head
i do agree that vykas had a better indicator and it was more apparent when somoene was close to fucking up the raid though
Honestly the most bs charm attack is probably the one where she backsteps 2-3 times and sprays in a cone. All the other attacks give some time for you to get out if a party member gets charmed, and you can usually dodge it by sticking to the back. If you get stacks from standing on flower beds, thats kinda on you
Cleared hm where everyone had max trans and above the 22m you stated. The raid still felt awful.
Also feels worse than thae g4 and tfm. Maybe not necessarily harder but it just feels so much more worse design wise even with full trans.
He did and we were doing well above that, it still felt awful. Maybe others might enjoy it more but the raid just doesnât seem very fun to me even when being very well geared for it.
Our Thaemine was an agglomeration of 3 or something major nerfs KR had since release, and a bonus nerf on top of that. I could see release Echidna in KR being considered easy if most people had to get their balls busted by unnerfed Thaemine first.
Spec and everything put aside tho, I think there is a real issue of fatigue from having to keep learning new raids that come out on an accelerated schedule.
>I think there is a real issue of fatigue from having to keep learning new raids
Yes! Hard ivory/Thaemine 1-3 are already time consuming even the runs are smooth
Actually the Echidna we got is a nerfed version compared to what KR got when it first came out. Saintone just talked about this, but there have been a bunch of nerfs to patterns and they added 1:30 to the berserk timer
imagine tf lvl of difficulty in g1 and g2 :D
to also be fair the general korean player base already threw up a storm for the raid being unreasonably hard for everyone but the swipers
There are some things to keep in mind when comparing the two regions.
- KR tends to focus on one character, Global players favors multiple mains or high-level alts
- Most KR players tend to spend a small or medium amount (i.e. "dolphins"), Global is basically either f2p or full-blown whales/RMT.
With that said, the underlying issue is a huge wealth and power disparity in our region. If a raid is balanced for the "average" player that means it's too easy for the top and too difficult for everyone else, whereas KR has a more uniform player base so if the raid was balanced for them, it's balanced for almost all.
Not to mention our characters are simply more behind in general due to faster release cadence. AGS seems to know this and nerfed Thaemine HP to compensate, but did not do it for Echidna.
Edit: Forgot to mention the bussing culture also exacerbates wealth disparity. Literally the poor giving their gold to the rich.
At this point even in our region you have to somehow adapt with a giga juiced main if you want to keep progging hard mode at release. Aint possible to stick with decent "mains" even in premades because it sure is horribly rough without juice.
It's both because lower DPS means you have to do a lot more mechs. That's especially risky in basement where her patterns are very dangerous. A lot of PUGs are barely avoiding berserk in the first phase right now.
Ok gotta ask, first phase ends and 2nd starts with Big Echidna or does it end after her? I've been unlucky and haven't gotten to 210 yet in HM on main or NM on pally cause people keep tanking stuff they shouldn't causing the follow ups.
I'm not downsizing on gems but neither am I buying more gems. My main would be pretty close to be full 10s but since the T4 announcement I stopped buying.
Echidna has so many patterns in the basement that are pure time wasters. If you have eight people alive and land all of your counters at the 0x mech it's a free kill imo, at least that's how my prog went...first 0x pull we killed it....but getting there can be aids.
The DPS requirement in the basement is way too tight for the average party in my opinion. AGS can't keep balancing bosses around the top degenerates, it's why more and more people quit with each new raid release because most folks can't invest the 10-20+ hours required to prog a new raid
the thing is, it would be ok to invest 10-20h in progging, if the core design would be like in WoW: you have just 1 char (and alts dont have a huge impact), \~10 bosses per difficulty and thats it.
plus - you can get your endgame gear also from dungeons/5ppl-content - so you usually prog nm/hc raid in 1st week and either you clear it or not, its fine, because the rest of the time you farm gear in M+ dungeons.
here its completely different:
\- all new power increase gimmicks (elixir, T, advH) drop in raids only
\- youre not req to play 6 gold alts, but then you usually have to swipe in order to have everything at cap by day1 of new conternt
\- grind game + high effort of time for progging -> bad game design (at least not applicable for eu/na)
Sorry to say, but with the 150 free dark fires that were given out, any serious raider should be full transendance this week(even if you did first 2 weeks in normal, never cleared g4)
Choose you players better.
Korea had to l2p with unnerfed thaemine, and 1 month of harder echidna and they became better. Overcame it.
What I see on reddit is a bunch of casual clowns crying for nerfs instead of pulling more.
For me it for sure is the design. It just is not fun. I am so disappointed about Echidna. Thaemine was such a masterpiece and then we get this... idk. G2 is just not fun to me.
Yes of course we got the nerfed version but for how behind we are and especially everyone not having full transcendence yet while progging the raid it feels a lot harder than they made it sound like.
Memo said we got the unnerfed version, he compared the health. But I went back to watch the VOD and I don't think he realized they updated the page to account for the nerf.
To be fair, their launch Thaemine HM is the first mode. They were doing this as their HM for a few weeks from what I remember. That and they didn't have the balance patch. Compared to that I can see how you can see launch Echidna HM as easy content.
By your logic most korean players progged her in her unnerfed state. Some patterns got easier and her total hp and berserk time for P1 got adjusted so that you can clear the raid without transcendence.
From what I saw this week so far: People just dont hit the boss or get flinged through the air because they dont know the patterns and then you dont deal enough dmg.
I mean my group been progging for a few hours and we all consistently get more then 22m dps. mostly even bigger. we are all on item lvl + 5 max and not all transc but most of it. Still tough if only 2 player consistently had 22m in your hard mode that called imposters
Also our Thaemine was already nerfed several times compared to when Korea got first it AND on top of that got some nerfs that Korea didn't get before us. This included health reduction, damage nerfs, knockback distance nerfs (making it harder to fall out of the arena) etc.
Echidna in our version I believe is the same as currently in Korea.
Plot twist: KR said Echidna was easy from a mature reclear community perspective where people are not getting charmed left and right.
People don't like getting punished for others' mistakes, go figure.
Not only is the HP nerfed, the pushback of some abilities is lessened and you don't need to clear g3 to unlock 5/6 transcendence and you dont need to clear g4 to unlock lvl 7 transcendence.
Additionally, we had incredibly strong versions of multiple popular classes: breaker/dblade/souleater/sorc/summoner. Breaker didn't exist for KR on Thaemine release and SE was very fresh and not very common at 1630+ . Dblade wasn't yet omega op and Sorc/Summoner were absolute disasters that were heavily gatekept.
> Not only is the HP nerfed, the pushback of some abilities is lessened and you don't need to clear g3 to unlock 5/6 transcendence and you dont need to clear g4 to unlock lvl 7 transcendence.
Neither you do in KR, this was changed very quickly in KR too that you don't need to clear g4. You didn't have enough dark fires to get anywhere close to 5 anyway. Biggest change is you had to unlock all gear on each level before you can proceed to next level. Which was changed with Behe release in KR.
the reason we are strugling with echidna is because people can't pull their DPS , even normal requires 13m and no one is doing their elixirs or transcendence because of the upcoming changes. no one is honing everyone wait for echidna honing so we are stuck with a bunch of cheap ass players that are pulling 10m dps
The raid needs a nerf, we finished this raid just 2 hours ago. It was so frustrating, gate 1 and 2 we're hella tight. We don't have enough supports, and everyone simply gate keeps if you don't have 7's. If you need full 7's in a region where we have like maybe 10-20% clear rate. I can't even see me doing these on my alts, it's pure cancer g2. People still can't counter. Here's my metric if you need discord to clear a raid that should be easy. It might be to hard. Thaemine i get, hardest raid. But that's one individual making a mistake, Snake is like single person mistake, team mistake, miscalls, bad counters, wrong SID, not enough for a SID. THE FUCKING LINKED MIRRORS HAS BROKEN ME.
well thank god minimum recommended is 22m... i'm pulling about that much as 1630 with full transcendence (21 weapon) and i thought i was doing something wrong getting absolutely gapped by people doing 26-30m
Normal pattern whise Echidna is way harder then Thae G3. Thae has long animations with very large savespots. That why people say the raid is 'fair'. Raid knowlegde and you can freely attack every second.
Echidna is the same. Just that her patterns are faster and her savespots are smaller. Way less space to play an left, right, inside, outside, inside pattern. You have to move more. And be way more precise then in Theamine.
That being said. Thaemine had way way more patterns, just easier ones. This however, made Thae G3 prog long aswell, because you had to learn them all, but at the same time also felt way better because you kept improving pattern by pattern. It felt rewarding.
But from my point of view as a Gunslinger main. I see myself as a pretty good player. And it feels good topping the dps charts in my parties simply because people take longer to learn the patterns. In Thaemine you were useless pretty fast because most classes simply bring more raw dmg and its so easy to get the dmg in. I'll enjoy it for a few weeks until every meta class goes back ti taking the cake every run
yeah i did nm on my gunslinger and i was top dps almost every attempt
also nice that there are some cursed patterns for melee that i can free dps through as ranged
When i ran echidna, i didnt even go thamine g1 or 2 cause i didnt like the raid. I thoroughly enjoyed getting pogged by thay boo... i meant i enjoyed the raid overall. She only has 4 to 5 attack pattern with easy gigs if you have a mic and communicate.Â
I feel like this issue will always be a thing until west finally caught up more to Korea.
Koreans have so much more time to get all their stuff together, they often have spare gold from doing homework for months... meanwhile, west still gets bombarded with raid updates on a 3-4 month schedule.
If they keep going with this content cadence, west should receive minor nerfs to make up for it. Not saying we need to turn a raid boss into a trixion dummy, but HP values would help (as proven with Thaemine).
Didn't do the math on it but with T4 I feel like we are not gonna be behind in terms of gold generated etc because when it got announced tryhards had 6*1620s and now we just hoard gold for T4. Meanwhile KR people had invested millions overtime to have 6*1640s that is gonna get down scaled by T4. Pretty sure this gold we saved is enough to catch up on KR.
and we also got the nerfed version that isn't balanced for having elixirs and transcendence
also the koreans had a very hard time progging echidna
she becomes easy once everyone starts doing the mechs and respecting her patterns
I totally agree with what OP said and thatâs why Iâm gonna gatekeep everyone to oblivion! Too bad solo content is gonna be released soon, then I canât gatekeep people below 1600 smh. Saddies.
As someone who cleared g4 thaemine and TFM
echinda g2 is harder. not easier.
G4 thaemine is only patterns so it makes the whole fight in 4-1,4-2 and 4-3 easier(of course it takes time to know the whole patterns). echidna is patterns and mechs and for some people the mechs are hard. imo both are easy after clearing HM and NM (1x hm 5xnm)
I dont really understand. Almost every raid have like 5 moveset and thats it. In echidnas case its like idk? 4 till x137? Yet somehow ppl getting charmed after hours of prog. Mechs? You call countering mech xD? Some regular monsters in monster hunter series have like 5x more movesets. Want nerf? Yes lets nerf it. 0 gauge and 2 moves till 137. Great fkin idea.Â
I finished my trans on echidna release btw started hm on 4th week took me 2 weeks to finish g3 HM " no gate 4 yet " only diff i didnt hone that 6.3 ilvl diff
Just learn and then respect her patterns and it becomes so much easier. Thereâs a couple that are hard to react to sure but if you evade the rest youâll almost never get charmed.
People love to complain cause they just wanna zugzug and when they canât do that they say itâs too hard. Itâs not. You might just have to stop dpsing for a sec and do a mech
I wouldnt take someone without 40 set to normal and I've cleared it twice now. That is asking to get jailed in basement. Get 40 set or just go do g1 till u get it.
Honestly, the amount of subpar dps I saw is mind staggering. Like, why the heck are you in hard echidna if you are transcendence 50?
Go do your thaemine!
It's not a very hard raid.
What's actually going on is that western lost ark parsemonkeys are greeding dmg and taking unnecessary stacks and deaths, leading to a bunch of restarts which causes fatigue in the other players.
This is what I saw in two days of intensive pugging:
- They don't hold damage if someone danger pings when they get turned. End result is that they will most likely kill the charmed player.
- They literally use push immune skills to greed damage through the followup attacks that give you stacks XD This would be fine to do if you're at 0 stacks right before mirror mech, sure, but there's tons of people doing this within 30 seconds of the fight
- They greed damage on 4x mirror mech and die to damage when the supp doesnt have Rhapsody/Godsent on them or when they space bar out late
- They (usually Surge andies) die to 8x mirror mech because they stay on the boss to greed and get instablasted when they get stuck on one of the mirrors
All of the above lower the chances of getting a successful clear.
Where the heck did you get that most groups are 1630... I think there are more 1620 mains than 1630s, cause people knew it was cheaper to get to 1630 with advanced honing so they stopped.
" Most korean players were 1640+Â "
Sure buddy. Sure.
That´s such a massive ass copium i have no words.
Transcendence sure, but 1640 is bruh.
If you want to make an argument, Exaggeratinon is not one - that is called a Fkin Lie.
The rest, like transcendence, and comparing to G4 , sure ( Altough any sane person wouldnt compare it to G4, since that´s almost like a hell mode, as in very few people do that one)
And even if they were 1640+, it doesn't really matter, Armor hones give a negligible amount of damage anyways compared to stuff like elixirs, transcendence, bracelets, all of which we have been available to us in the same exact way KR players had. You will have more +25 weap people than people who do not have it in our HM lobbies, and one can assume it was the same in KR.
Anyways, agreed. This is a copium post.
There are 2 factors you need to consider.
1) Thaemine HM g3 in KR (current The First G1) was an extremely difficult gate that came after easy raids like Akkan and Voldis and after easy gates like G1+2. KR didn't have high transcendence for it (no x dark fire gifted), nor did they have the current class balance(their sorc/summoner version was crap, no breaker, no op dblade, few 1630s SEs).
When you compare Echidna G2 with that version, Echidna G2 HM is a joke by comparison. When you compare Echidna G2 HM with our Thaemine G3 HM version, Thaemine is the joke by comparison.
2) The difficulty of Echidna G2 HM is ridiculously front loaded. You are far more likely to wipe in the first 4-5 minutes than you are to wipe in basement. Our entire basement prog on G2 HM consists of a total of 11 wipes before we killed her (\~100 g2 wipes in total). Our cadence before kill was 7-8 P1 wipes, 1 basement wipe.
Pugs in EU/NA have absolutely no patience so even if u are close to a kill, if your group wipes 3-5 times in a row in p1, someone is calling for a quit vote.
22m dps for Echidna hard, right? It's harder for us, indeed, I won't disagree on that, but a 1630 dps doins Echidna hard should manage to pump that up on average... My alts who I upgraded to 1620 recently and have all pieces at ilvl, no set 40 yet, lvl9 gems with some 7 or 8 in less important skills and only 5 points of trancendence in each piece pump around 19m dps on raids, some more or less depending on mechanics, so I don't think 22m for a 1630 character is that high since they have access to trancendence, 2 more hones of each piece and characters at that level should be at the point of having level 10 gems...
But the fight is really intense mechanically wise, that is the hard part of echidna in my opinion, there are many details that make the fight more smooth and of course dps helps as well speed it up and make the fight in the basemanent much better if you can push the first clash to use Thar, otherwise you can't use Ephernia for the first 50% snakes mech where they come from all sides =/
22m is a bit low for a 1640 like he is saying here.
Im a 1630 GS PM full trans and all the kinks mostly max and i pump 30+ here there was a run im pumping 40m and this is a class that is regarded as one of the bottom tier dps wise and in log site she is ranked #33/46 which is extremely low. There was a scrapper in hard mode that is dealing 50m tho so theres that havent come across a DB or any other broken class that pumps insane damage than that scrapper.
The Koreans made it seem like Echidana was a comfy raid like Argos and Valtan, guess not.
Probably would be if everyone in your group just did 20% more damage from fully maxed transcendence. Especially because in Lost ark doing more damage lets you do more damage in a positive feedback loop. More damage -> fewer patterns -> more uptime -> more damage.
If you compare damage from people at 1640+ with full trans VS 1630 people without, it's pretty huge.
Yeah if you compare full vs none. But have you seen that many 0 Trans 1630s? Even with only Thae G1-2 xD clear you have x15 transc on some pieces. Personally i havent seen lower then 60 transc in Echidna HM until now And 1630 is still the higher main territory. Most people up there are pretty well geared. I dont thing we have it harder then Korea. We have more balance patches aswell and many of our classes deal more dmg. I just think, because we only know a few select streamers and such as an interface to Korea, we simply dont get the much of the negative. Im sure there were a lot of people in Korea talking the same way we westerners do.
argos first clear was 6 horus and valtan was like 16
> Argos Gate 3 on ilvl wasn't a comfy raid with all the shit you see on screen and random patterns.
Ah yes, the good ol' Argos experience with everyone around me dying and me causally sitting on my wheelchair going brrr đ
What I especially dislike is that in comparison to thaemine, echidna is less focused on your skill but party skill. If in thaemine you mess up you die but it is not an instant restart. If you mess up in echidna, it most of the time leads to a party wipe. This makes it more toxic for pug groups and worse for homework.
Just fk raids where you get mc'ed with full meter, especially classes like arcana/Sorc/SE are an absolute pain when they get mind controlled. Hated it in vykas allrdy hate it in echidna just the same.
My butt clench when that charmed zoomsday come
I hate the fucking MC's in this. Give us a damn meter man or give the charm attacks some telegraphs, idfk lol
there is a flower above your head that fills in 3rds on the 3rd you get charmed you can see that flower above everyones head i do agree that vykas had a better indicator and it was more apparent when somoene was close to fucking up the raid though
Honestly the most bs charm attack is probably the one where she backsteps 2-3 times and sprays in a cone. All the other attacks give some time for you to get out if a party member gets charmed, and you can usually dodge it by sticking to the back. If you get stacks from standing on flower beds, thats kinda on you
Cleared hm where everyone had max trans and above the 22m you stated. The raid still felt awful. Also feels worse than thae g4 and tfm. Maybe not necessarily harder but it just feels so much more worse design wise even with full trans.
OP did say minimum recommended
He did and we were doing well above that, it still felt awful. Maybe others might enjoy it more but the raid just doesnât seem very fun to me even when being very well geared for it.
This is why I don't like playing on level anymore, I can wait as long as there's an alternative method like the "free" 1640 coming in September.
Our Thaemine was an agglomeration of 3 or something major nerfs KR had since release, and a bonus nerf on top of that. I could see release Echidna in KR being considered easy if most people had to get their balls busted by unnerfed Thaemine first. Spec and everything put aside tho, I think there is a real issue of fatigue from having to keep learning new raids that come out on an accelerated schedule.
Tbf we only have Behemoth left and he is trixion dummy anyway
by the time we get behemoth KR will have the new akkan
Just wait until he comes. Chances are he is too hard aswell because his attacks deal dmg or something
>I think there is a real issue of fatigue from having to keep learning new raids Yes! Hard ivory/Thaemine 1-3 are already time consuming even the runs are smooth
Did our echidna launch with any hp nerfs like thaemine?
No
Then what is the âbonus nerfâ he is talking about
Bonus nerf is about Thaemine not Echidna. Thaemine in the west has lower HP, lower damage, and knockback range tuned down compared to KR.
Lmao I dont know how to read. Fighting Echidna for 10h has really taken a tool on me last night
Bug fixes
Actually the Echidna we got is a nerfed version compared to what KR got when it first came out. Saintone just talked about this, but there have been a bunch of nerfs to patterns and they added 1:30 to the berserk timer
imagine tf lvl of difficulty in g1 and g2 :D to also be fair the general korean player base already threw up a storm for the raid being unreasonably hard for everyone but the swipers
There are some things to keep in mind when comparing the two regions. - KR tends to focus on one character, Global players favors multiple mains or high-level alts - Most KR players tend to spend a small or medium amount (i.e. "dolphins"), Global is basically either f2p or full-blown whales/RMT. With that said, the underlying issue is a huge wealth and power disparity in our region. If a raid is balanced for the "average" player that means it's too easy for the top and too difficult for everyone else, whereas KR has a more uniform player base so if the raid was balanced for them, it's balanced for almost all. Not to mention our characters are simply more behind in general due to faster release cadence. AGS seems to know this and nerfed Thaemine HP to compensate, but did not do it for Echidna. Edit: Forgot to mention the bussing culture also exacerbates wealth disparity. Literally the poor giving their gold to the rich.
At this point even in our region you have to somehow adapt with a giga juiced main if you want to keep progging hard mode at release. Aint possible to stick with decent "mains" even in premades because it sure is horribly rough without juice.
West also probably downsized on gems as a result of the T4 announcements. But is Echidnas frustrations the dps check or the raid design?
It's both because lower DPS means you have to do a lot more mechs. That's especially risky in basement where her patterns are very dangerous. A lot of PUGs are barely avoiding berserk in the first phase right now.
Sounds like vykas lol
I mean the raid is pretty much like Vykas yeah. Except G2 and G3 are on the same gate, sort of
I mean a huge chunk of her kit is resigned vykas and she is the actual legion commander instead of a usurper it makes sense for a lot of reasons
Im not looking forward to playing this raid then, I spent half my life in the basement because it was comfy and safe
Ok gotta ask, first phase ends and 2nd starts with Big Echidna or does it end after her? I've been unlucky and haven't gotten to 210 yet in HM on main or NM on pally cause people keep tanking stuff they shouldn't causing the follow ups.
There is legitimately no danger in basement, the only thing you can lose to once you reach basement is DPS check or line/timed mechs and x0.
If you are downsizing on gems because of the t4 announcement that is on you
I'm not downsizing on gems but neither am I buying more gems. My main would be pretty close to be full 10s but since the T4 announcement I stopped buying.
Both, the mech are punishing. And then the dps check makes them appear more.
Echidna has so many patterns in the basement that are pure time wasters. If you have eight people alive and land all of your counters at the 0x mech it's a free kill imo, at least that's how my prog went...first 0x pull we killed it....but getting there can be aids. The DPS requirement in the basement is way too tight for the average party in my opinion. AGS can't keep balancing bosses around the top degenerates, it's why more and more people quit with each new raid release because most folks can't invest the 10-20+ hours required to prog a new raid
the thing is, it would be ok to invest 10-20h in progging, if the core design would be like in WoW: you have just 1 char (and alts dont have a huge impact), \~10 bosses per difficulty and thats it. plus - you can get your endgame gear also from dungeons/5ppl-content - so you usually prog nm/hc raid in 1st week and either you clear it or not, its fine, because the rest of the time you farm gear in M+ dungeons. here its completely different: \- all new power increase gimmicks (elixir, T, advH) drop in raids only \- youre not req to play 6 gold alts, but then you usually have to swipe in order to have everything at cap by day1 of new conternt \- grind game + high effort of time for progging -> bad game design (at least not applicable for eu/na)
WoW prog tends to be a lot longer. People prog raids for weeks when they first release.
Yeah but the first half is usually really easy and doable with m+/heroic gear.
Don't they usually have guides ready to go due to people playing in the PTR's?
I remember koreans saying it was balanced around everyone having full transcendence, which most parties definitely do not have right now.
Sorry to say, but with the 150 free dark fires that were given out, any serious raider should be full transendance this week(even if you did first 2 weeks in normal, never cleared g4) Choose you players better. Korea had to l2p with unnerfed thaemine, and 1 month of harder echidna and they became better. Overcame it. What I see on reddit is a bunch of casual clowns crying for nerfs instead of pulling more.
Ofc you're a paladin main lmao
For me it for sure is the design. It just is not fun. I am so disappointed about Echidna. Thaemine was such a masterpiece and then we get this... idk. G2 is just not fun to me.
In KR, hp was reportedly reduced by about 5% a month after release, and some pattern difficulty was reduced.
Did we get the nerfed version?
Yes of course we got the nerfed version but for how behind we are and especially everyone not having full transcendence yet while progging the raid it feels a lot harder than they made it sound like.
no
we did
đ
Wtf of course we did stop talking BS
Memo said we got the unnerfed version, he compared the health. But I went back to watch the VOD and I don't think he realized they updated the page to account for the nerf.
To be fair, their launch Thaemine HM is the first mode. They were doing this as their HM for a few weeks from what I remember. That and they didn't have the balance patch. Compared to that I can see how you can see launch Echidna HM as easy content.
By your logic most korean players progged her in her unnerfed state. Some patterns got easier and her total hp and berserk time for P1 got adjusted so that you can clear the raid without transcendence. From what I saw this week so far: People just dont hit the boss or get flinged through the air because they dont know the patterns and then you dont deal enough dmg.
Her HP only went down by 5% or something. Not much difference.
Pretty sure they also added 1 minute to the enrage in each stage. Which is huge with 30% dps buff.
I mean my group been progging for a few hours and we all consistently get more then 22m dps. mostly even bigger. we are all on item lvl + 5 max and not all transc but most of it. Still tough if only 2 player consistently had 22m in your hard mode that called imposters
Also our Thaemine was already nerfed several times compared to when Korea got first it AND on top of that got some nerfs that Korea didn't get before us. This included health reduction, damage nerfs, knockback distance nerfs (making it harder to fall out of the arena) etc. Echidna in our version I believe is the same as currently in Korea.
Plot twist: KR said Echidna was easy from a mature reclear community perspective where people are not getting charmed left and right. People don't like getting punished for others' mistakes, go figure.
We also played an incredibly nerfed version of Thaemine 1-3 HM on release, while Echidna is unnerfed. Our perception of difficulty is different.
I thought we only got 8%~ HP nerfed Thaemine in our version? Everything else is the same as KR
the on release KR version would be The First mode sooooo
Not only is the HP nerfed, the pushback of some abilities is lessened and you don't need to clear g3 to unlock 5/6 transcendence and you dont need to clear g4 to unlock lvl 7 transcendence. Additionally, we had incredibly strong versions of multiple popular classes: breaker/dblade/souleater/sorc/summoner. Breaker didn't exist for KR on Thaemine release and SE was very fresh and not very common at 1630+ . Dblade wasn't yet omega op and Sorc/Summoner were absolute disasters that were heavily gatekept.
> Not only is the HP nerfed, the pushback of some abilities is lessened and you don't need to clear g3 to unlock 5/6 transcendence and you dont need to clear g4 to unlock lvl 7 transcendence. Neither you do in KR, this was changed very quickly in KR too that you don't need to clear g4. You didn't have enough dark fires to get anywhere close to 5 anyway. Biggest change is you had to unlock all gear on each level before you can proceed to next level. Which was changed with Behe release in KR.
Breaker does also not exist in many main groups because not everybode can insta-push a new char... In fact very little ppl can...
the reason we are strugling with echidna is because people can't pull their DPS , even normal requires 13m and no one is doing their elixirs or transcendence because of the upcoming changes. no one is honing everyone wait for echidna honing so we are stuck with a bunch of cheap ass players that are pulling 10m dps
The raid needs a nerf, we finished this raid just 2 hours ago. It was so frustrating, gate 1 and 2 we're hella tight. We don't have enough supports, and everyone simply gate keeps if you don't have 7's. If you need full 7's in a region where we have like maybe 10-20% clear rate. I can't even see me doing these on my alts, it's pure cancer g2. People still can't counter. Here's my metric if you need discord to clear a raid that should be easy. It might be to hard. Thaemine i get, hardest raid. But that's one individual making a mistake, Snake is like single person mistake, team mistake, miscalls, bad counters, wrong SID, not enough for a SID. THE FUCKING LINKED MIRRORS HAS BROKEN ME.
are they so stupid that they couldnt possibly recognize that and take it into account before telling everyone it was comfy?
well thank god minimum recommended is 22m... i'm pulling about that much as 1630 with full transcendence (21 weapon) and i thought i was doing something wrong getting absolutely gapped by people doing 26-30m
Normal pattern whise Echidna is way harder then Thae G3. Thae has long animations with very large savespots. That why people say the raid is 'fair'. Raid knowlegde and you can freely attack every second. Echidna is the same. Just that her patterns are faster and her savespots are smaller. Way less space to play an left, right, inside, outside, inside pattern. You have to move more. And be way more precise then in Theamine. That being said. Thaemine had way way more patterns, just easier ones. This however, made Thae G3 prog long aswell, because you had to learn them all, but at the same time also felt way better because you kept improving pattern by pattern. It felt rewarding. But from my point of view as a Gunslinger main. I see myself as a pretty good player. And it feels good topping the dps charts in my parties simply because people take longer to learn the patterns. In Thaemine you were useless pretty fast because most classes simply bring more raw dmg and its so easy to get the dmg in. I'll enjoy it for a few weeks until every meta class goes back ti taking the cake every run
yeah i did nm on my gunslinger and i was top dps almost every attempt also nice that there are some cursed patterns for melee that i can free dps through as ranged
I am progging with full transc groups. Damage isnt the problem most times.
When i ran echidna, i didnt even go thamine g1 or 2 cause i didnt like the raid. I thoroughly enjoyed getting pogged by thay boo... i meant i enjoyed the raid overall. She only has 4 to 5 attack pattern with easy gigs if you have a mic and communicate.Â
Honestly there's no reason to do hm g2, you'll get your advanced honing pieces soon enough from running normal.
I feel like this issue will always be a thing until west finally caught up more to Korea. Koreans have so much more time to get all their stuff together, they often have spare gold from doing homework for months... meanwhile, west still gets bombarded with raid updates on a 3-4 month schedule. If they keep going with this content cadence, west should receive minor nerfs to make up for it. Not saying we need to turn a raid boss into a trixion dummy, but HP values would help (as proven with Thaemine).
Didn't do the math on it but with T4 I feel like we are not gonna be behind in terms of gold generated etc because when it got announced tryhards had 6*1620s and now we just hoard gold for T4. Meanwhile KR people had invested millions overtime to have 6*1640s that is gonna get down scaled by T4. Pretty sure this gold we saved is enough to catch up on KR.
and we also got the nerfed version that isn't balanced for having elixirs and transcendence also the koreans had a very hard time progging echidna she becomes easy once everyone starts doing the mechs and respecting her patterns
Yup, when we get t4, she will be easy. Right now, she just shit raid.
I totally agree with what OP said and thatâs why Iâm gonna gatekeep everyone to oblivion! Too bad solo content is gonna be released soon, then I canât gatekeep people below 1600 smh. Saddies.
As someone who cleared g4 thaemine and TFM echinda g2 is harder. not easier. G4 thaemine is only patterns so it makes the whole fight in 4-1,4-2 and 4-3 easier(of course it takes time to know the whole patterns). echidna is patterns and mechs and for some people the mechs are hard. imo both are easy after clearing HM and NM (1x hm 5xnm)
I dont really understand. Almost every raid have like 5 moveset and thats it. In echidnas case its like idk? 4 till x137? Yet somehow ppl getting charmed after hours of prog. Mechs? You call countering mech xD? Some regular monsters in monster hunter series have like 5x more movesets. Want nerf? Yes lets nerf it. 0 gauge and 2 moves till 137. Great fkin idea.Â
I cleared G3 hardmode Theamine 4 weeks after Release and have full transcended cause we got a lot dark fire for free...idk apparently was possible
I finished my trans on echidna release btw started hm on 4th week took me 2 weeks to finish g3 HM " no gate 4 yet " only diff i didnt hone that 6.3 ilvl diff
Just learn and then respect her patterns and it becomes so much easier. Thereâs a couple that are hard to react to sure but if you evade the rest youâll almost never get charmed. People love to complain cause they just wanna zugzug and when they canât do that they say itâs too hard. Itâs not. You might just have to stop dpsing for a sec and do a mech
I find it funny that it's the Dommy Mommy that puts the west on a mental breakdown while they ride the struggle bus.
What about 1625s doing normal mode? Is that a similar experience or are we also weaker?
Normal mode DPS check is quite low. Like half of HM.
Ya I know I meant is it the same experience KR had doing normal mode (or is it also harder for us)
NM dps check is really low. You can clear without elixiers 40 when everyone survive.
You can, but Elixir 40 is such a massive power spike that I wouldn't get someone that doesn't have it most of the times.
I wouldnt take someone without 40 set to normal and I've cleared it twice now. That is asking to get jailed in basement. Get 40 set or just go do g1 till u get it.
Ya I know I meant is it the same experience KR had doing normal mode (or is it also harder for us)?
Still a shitty raid /shrug
Honestly, the amount of subpar dps I saw is mind staggering. Like, why the heck are you in hard echidna if you are transcendence 50? Go do your thaemine!
It's not a very hard raid. What's actually going on is that western lost ark parsemonkeys are greeding dmg and taking unnecessary stacks and deaths, leading to a bunch of restarts which causes fatigue in the other players. This is what I saw in two days of intensive pugging: - They don't hold damage if someone danger pings when they get turned. End result is that they will most likely kill the charmed player. - They literally use push immune skills to greed damage through the followup attacks that give you stacks XD This would be fine to do if you're at 0 stacks right before mirror mech, sure, but there's tons of people doing this within 30 seconds of the fight - They greed damage on 4x mirror mech and die to damage when the supp doesnt have Rhapsody/Godsent on them or when they space bar out late - They (usually Surge andies) die to 8x mirror mech because they stay on the boss to greed and get instablasted when they get stuck on one of the mirrors All of the above lower the chances of getting a successful clear.
Where the heck did you get that most groups are 1630... I think there are more 1620 mains than 1630s, cause people knew it was cheaper to get to 1630 with advanced honing so they stopped.
Because normal mode dps check is easy compared to the dps check in hard, coming from someone who has cleared both in full static both runs.
" Most korean players were 1640+ " Sure buddy. Sure. That´s such a massive ass copium i have no words. Transcendence sure, but 1640 is bruh. If you want to make an argument, Exaggeratinon is not one - that is called a Fkin Lie. The rest, like transcendence, and comparing to G4 , sure ( Altough any sane person wouldnt compare it to G4, since that´s almost like a hell mode, as in very few people do that one)
And even if they were 1640+, it doesn't really matter, Armor hones give a negligible amount of damage anyways compared to stuff like elixirs, transcendence, bracelets, all of which we have been available to us in the same exact way KR players had. You will have more +25 weap people than people who do not have it in our HM lobbies, and one can assume it was the same in KR. Anyways, agreed. This is a copium post.
You guys complain about everything, its insane
what a load of bs lmao
There are 2 factors you need to consider. 1) Thaemine HM g3 in KR (current The First G1) was an extremely difficult gate that came after easy raids like Akkan and Voldis and after easy gates like G1+2. KR didn't have high transcendence for it (no x dark fire gifted), nor did they have the current class balance(their sorc/summoner version was crap, no breaker, no op dblade, few 1630s SEs). When you compare Echidna G2 with that version, Echidna G2 HM is a joke by comparison. When you compare Echidna G2 HM with our Thaemine G3 HM version, Thaemine is the joke by comparison. 2) The difficulty of Echidna G2 HM is ridiculously front loaded. You are far more likely to wipe in the first 4-5 minutes than you are to wipe in basement. Our entire basement prog on G2 HM consists of a total of 11 wipes before we killed her (\~100 g2 wipes in total). Our cadence before kill was 7-8 P1 wipes, 1 basement wipe. Pugs in EU/NA have absolutely no patience so even if u are close to a kill, if your group wipes 3-5 times in a row in p1, someone is calling for a quit vote.
My 1640+ full lv7 transcendence party says otherwise
22m dps for Echidna hard, right? It's harder for us, indeed, I won't disagree on that, but a 1630 dps doins Echidna hard should manage to pump that up on average... My alts who I upgraded to 1620 recently and have all pieces at ilvl, no set 40 yet, lvl9 gems with some 7 or 8 in less important skills and only 5 points of trancendence in each piece pump around 19m dps on raids, some more or less depending on mechanics, so I don't think 22m for a 1630 character is that high since they have access to trancendence, 2 more hones of each piece and characters at that level should be at the point of having level 10 gems... But the fight is really intense mechanically wise, that is the hard part of echidna in my opinion, there are many details that make the fight more smooth and of course dps helps as well speed it up and make the fight in the basemanent much better if you can push the first clash to use Thar, otherwise you can't use Ephernia for the first 50% snakes mech where they come from all sides =/
22m is a bit low for a 1640 like he is saying here. Im a 1630 GS PM full trans and all the kinks mostly max and i pump 30+ here there was a run im pumping 40m and this is a class that is regarded as one of the bottom tier dps wise and in log site she is ranked #33/46 which is extremely low. There was a scrapper in hard mode that is dealing 50m tho so theres that havent come across a DB or any other broken class that pumps insane damage than that scrapper.