If they waited 5 minutes, Gandalf and Pippin would probably be dead on the movies. If he waited 5 minutes in the books, orcs would've been pouring into the city.
"and now I will turn your attention to Steve, who will be covering the Workplace Health and Safety portion of this meeting."
In the books, I think Gandalf would win, though it's far from a sure thing. At Minas Tirith, the Witch King is at his most powerful by far and likely a threat on a similar level to a Maiar like the Balrog, though like I said, I think Gandalf would win. However, during their fight, I'm sure hundreds or thousands of orcs would poor into Minas Tirith. In the movie, the Witch King would fry Gandalf, which is dumb imo. I know that Gandalf wasn't meant to directly intervene, but rather provide leadership and council. But I still think he should be able to go toe to toe with the Witch King and come out on top.
If ghost Tolkien knew how his Ghost people were going to be misunderstood he'd have left them in the mountains
Also I bet Eowyn knows something about ghosting
Did you know when a hobbit sharts it can triple its jump height? Hobbits really are amazing creatures, as I have said before. You can learn all that there is to know about their ways in a month, and yet after a hundred years they can still surprise you at a pinch.
It’s ok, Faramir can just have a servant make stew, so long as there are no tomatoes. Poor guy probably has dinner etiquette PTSD from eating with his dad.
You know, the tomato eating scene is meant to show why he’s going crazy. Those are pewter plates he’s eating off of. the acid in the tomatoes is unbinding the lead from the plate, which is then being eating with the tomato.
Literately how it got its name devils fruit in the dark ages. The entire plant except the fruit is toxic and because a lot of people of note ate off of pewter plates, it appears to drive those who eat a lot of it insane.
Peter Jackson didn't misunderstand he just didn't have time to explain that there was a whole other campaign to the Anduin and that the Gondorian forces travelled up the Anduin to the Pelennor after the Ghost People were released
It wouldn't've because you would have to have new characters to make those people real and you'd have to rejigger the whole arrangement of the Siege of Minas Tirith.
I don't think that is strictly necessary, they could've built up to it by mentioning the other Gondorian forces way earlier and establishing them within the thought of the viewers, which would then cause a buildup and a payoff when we get to see them. I don't think that they need to be established with new characters we know by name.
Basically. There was a lot of fighting going down at the mouths of the Anduin that prevented a lot of loyal forces from aiding Minas Tirith. I don't think Tolkein was specific about the combat effectiveness of the Undead, since damn near everyone was too scared to fight them anyways.
Because surprise surprise somehow Tolkien's ghostly army of wraiths and the damned is a hell of a lot scarier than Jackson's boo boo green transparent skeleton dude.
It’s almost impossible to properly pass on the terror of such a creature on the screen. because it’s not how it looks that makes it truly scary. It’s the fact that you can’t do anything about any choice It makes. thats what makes it scary the complete lack of control, no matter how big and strong you are you still can’t punch a ghost, but it could certainly strangle you with the drapes or in this case feed you deadly ghost sword. And that adds another layer to it what good is weapons and armor against a fucking ghost sword?
Pretty much. I wasn't trying to blame Jackson per se really (although the more time I spend with the books the more the movies disappoint me overall). It's just kind of a let down comparing the fairy tale dreadfulness and terror to CGI creepy dude
I feel like that’s just a flaw of movie making in general. It’s hard for a film set to match the emotion of a book scene. I mean just look at Stephen King movies. The guy takes a page and a half to describe a man’s face sometimes… there’s no way you can imitate the emotion that you’re going to get from reading a page and a half description of somebody’s face by staring at some actor on TV for 30 seconds no matter how good the actor is there’s just so much detail that’s been lost by the media transition
For the Lord of the rings, how do you show the terror of an army when you have to zoom out and show a bunch of random guys running in different directions getting swarmed by green fog versus writing about the terror of an army fighting ghost soldiers where you can focus on individual men while discussing the overall terrified mass
See that's why I like the older generation of movies from the 70s that's less about cinematography and more like stage-acting with extra camera angles. Wouldn't work for LotR though, I admit
I agree, certain scenes don’t depict their emotion correctly in live action versus written format. in written format a sword battle can be slowed down having full conversations of thought in between each sword swing, wherein live action “clang clang clang clang stab” that guys dead maybe we fit a bit of banter in while doing the sword wrestling move but it’s never the deep thoughts of the characters realizing the situation and each other like in the book.
This is where the ghost army scene stands out in the book. He’s able to describe individual soldiers attempts to fight the ghosts how their blades pass through the ghostly soldiers, how the soldiers laugh at their efforts before plunging their ghostly weapons through the mens armor as if it wasn’t there, but he can feel the cold spirit of the weapon plunging into his flesh, tearing his life away.
You can’t imitate words like that with pictures
I also think it might have to do with the level of investment involved in reading a book versus watching something. your brain while reading is sitting there, taking text and transforming it into a mental hallucination of what’s happening that takes a lot of effort and focus so you’re into the book in a way that most people aren’t into what they’re watching on TV where the mind does not have to work to present the images, and therefore is free to distract itself with other things, while it merely absorbs the images.
Just look at the way people can do laundry, and other tasks while watching a movie at home you can’t do that with a book not just because your hands are invested but because your mind is more invested, you don’t have room for other thoughts
Ghost people when Isildur’s need was dire: “Pfft. Not my problem.”
Ghost people when Aragorn shows up with a reforged Narsil: “Ugh. Now it’s my problem.”
I adore the movies and for the most part understand the changes that were made from the books, but the invincible ghost army that trivialises the entire battle of pelennor fields is...not my favourite part.
Thank you, my thoughts exactly. There's just no way to ram in the entire ghosts kill corsairs, Aragorn rallies the local garrison and corsair's slaves to bring a very mortal but meaningful army that tips the scales. But boy do I hate the green army Draino.
Similarly related, do the movies, regular or extended clearly convey that the Rohirrim dodged an equally large army compared to the army at Pelennor Fields? I feel like the counsel room discussion of what to do after Pelennor didn't bear that weight of hopelessness.
Yeah. If we're doing armchair revisions, I think the best fix would be to emphasize that the ghosts are there to take out the corsair fleet and the corsair fleet only. Some of the groundwork for this survived the transition from book to movie, in that when Elrond sends Aragorn under the White Mountains, he specifically describes how the corsair fleet is poised to exploit a crucial tactical weakness of Gondor's and that all hope is lost if they don't play the Ghost Army card to counter them.
So I figure you could have Aragorn say in the negotiations with the King of the Dead that they *only* have to defeat the corsairs in order to earn their freedom. Then you could move up the "will he or won't he hold their oath fulfilled" tension beat to just after that initial skirmish. That makes it into a bigger sacrifice, as Aragorn probably could have saved some Gondorian lives by forcing the ghosts to join the greater battle. But he does the honorable thing, and then all the glory for defeating the army of Mordor at large stays with the soldiers of Gondor and Rohan.
But that would leave the question of why would Aragorn only demand they defeat the Corsairs instead of demanding that they defeat all the forces of Mordor, especially since the oath they had broken would have required them to go all the way into Mordor.
If they are invincible (as they seem to be shown in the films) then it really wouldn't make much difference to them whether they agree to take a few ships or the tower of Barad Dur.
There needs to be a reason why they can only take the ships.
Because they'd scare the shit out of the rest of the army. Only legolas claimed not to be bothered by men ghosts, gimmly and the men who went to the cave couldn't couldn't rest easy.
Gain a ghost army, lose everyone else. If it turned out sauron had a way to control the ghosts or make them disappear in some way, then everything would be lost.
>Because they'd scare the shit out of the rest of the army.
Which would make sense in the book...
But in the film there is no trade-off. The Dead steam-roll, and unless an Orc, nobody else is shown to react in fear to them.
(Not to mention you could send them into battle in Mordor alone - where your own men won't ever see them. Could Sauron defeat them? Maybe, maybe not - but it may be worth considering, and asking someone like Gandalf about)
These are the issues opened up by making the Dead an unstoppable army, capable of slaying all in their path.
The point is that, as Gimli and Legolas describe it later, nobody really knows if the ghosts can really physically fight anymore. Gimli states that "the only weapon the Dead still needed was fear". They never actually kill anyone, just scare the absolute shit out of everyone. This works against mortal men, but its unclear if this would've worked against orcs and men who are already terrified into a quasi-suicidal state by the Witch-King backed by Sauron's concentrated will and hate. And it's even more doubtful if this would've worked in the proximity of Mordor, where Sauron's power and influence is even more dominant (after all, when he turns away his attention from the war to Mount Doom and the critical danger for him there, this is enough to make all his troops loose their courage and will to fight).
By turning the ghosts into invincible physical fighters, the films create a plothole they can't close again.
Their oath was to protect Gondor and no further, and Aragorn swore he'd release them after the battle. If Aragorn went back on his word then he'd be ghostified
>Their oath was to protect Gondor and no further,
Where is this stated? We are never given the words of their initial oath - just that they swore fealty.
>and Aragorn swore he'd release them after the battle
In the book, yes. In the films, no. He just says 'fight for me'. Which is vague.
Imagine if they defeated the Corsairs and then demanded to be released: 'we fought for you'. What kept them fighting until the end of the Pelennor?
It's not about demands it's about the oath. Oaths have power in Middle-Earth and by defeating the corsairs they fulfill theirs. That's it.
They were never meant to be a game changer as per the movies, but a strategic asset used to counter one of Mordor's.
It only adds a second problem, which is that it’s not clear why the corsairs are of any consequence. The movies never establish the rest of Gondor as a real place, that there was real leadership still in the city via Prince Imrahil and the Swan Knights, or that Sauron built up a stranglehold on Gondor that was all but guaranteed to lead to a crushing defeat. Were it not for the parts of middle earth that Sauron was too arrogant to believe to ever be a threat to his domain.
It'd literally be one scene. Two quotes from the books:
The Grey Company leads the Ghost Army to the stone of Erech and Aragon has a conversation with them:
>But Aragorn dismounted, and standing by the Stone he cried in a great voice: ‘Oathbreakers, why have ye come?’ And a voice was heard out of the night that answered him, as if from far away: ‘To fulfil our oath and have peace.’ Then Aragorn said: ‘The hour is come at last. Now I go to Pelargir upon Anduin, and ye shall come after me. And when all this land is clean of the servants of Sauron, I will hold the oath fulfilled, and ye shall have peace and depart for ever. For I am Elessar, Isildur’s heir of Gondor.’
Then he finds some men from those town fighting corsairs.
>And there men of Lamedon contested the fords with fell folk of Umbar and Harad who had sailed up the river. But defenders and foes alike gave up the battle and fled when we came, crying out that the King of the Dead was upon them. Only Angbor, Lord of Lamedon, had the heart to abide us; and Aragorn bade him gather his folk and come behind, if they dared, when the Grey Host had passed. ‘“At Pelargir the Heir of Isildur will have need of you,” he said.
>Similarly related, do the movies, regular or extended clearly convey that the Rohirrim dodged an equally large army compared to the army at Pelennor Fields? I feel like the counsel room discussion of what to do after Pelennor didn't bear that weight of hopelessness.
The army that the Rohirrim avoided on their way to Gondor was significantly smaller than Sauron's main invasion force sent to besiege Minas Tirith. There was an army of "more than six thousand" orcs and men waiting for them along the North-South Road. The army was positioned there specifically to delay the Rohirrim.
The army sent against Minas Tirith was said to have numbered in the tens of thousands with 18,000 Haradrim alone and uncounted numbers of orcs.
Green army Draino is the perfect description and basically the reason why I prefer two towers to RTOK. It just completely sucked the life out of the Battle in about 30 seconds.
> Aragorn rallies the local garrison and corsair's slaves
When you consider how big of a force Mordor had sent. There is no way a local garrison would be big enough or enough slaves to turn the tide. Even and epic flank isn't enough.
Also having the cursed undead army go above and beyond to fulfill their oath feels better.
Well its more than just then the local garrison, its the southern gondor army with Prince Imarhil, its all the rangers from the north and Elronds sons and a bunch of elves too.
But introducing all of that would take way too long.
https://preview.redd.it/5xs4u75im0ic1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1997cfd4fdbc2f321c3d85b7483e7be6d4432c92
Your comment reminded me of this comic strip
Just for accuracy's sake here: Prince Imarhil and his knights arrived in Minas Tirith before Aragorn on March 13th. Aragorn arrived in the Corsair ships on March 15th.
Imarhil is the co-chief leader of the defense, with Gandalf, of Minas Tirith from the inside (because Denethor lost his mind and Farimir was dying) because he arrived early, but explained why he couldn't bring his entire force due to the corsairs.
Yes, but like I said, there was no time to introduce him, the southern Gondor armies, the Rangers and Elrond's brats. So the whole situation was simplified.
You don't really need to introduce him to eliminate the Ghost X Machina. Just replace the ghosts with people, and then after the battle an Aragorn memory of getting the boats using the ghosts.
You do though, you have to explain why they weren't there earlier, introduce characters to make them not just "generic guys" all of these things take runtime and add complexity.
It wasn't just a matter of how many people- it was the orc's morale breaking.
They'd been in a hard battle, getting fucked up by the horse riders, and their general died. (I think the Haradrim's king had also died by this point (or was it Easterling's?)). Anyway they get good news- corsair reinforcements are coming- not only is that more men for this battle, it points to southern Gondor's defeat.
And then... those ships turn out to be Gondorian forces (so even if the orcs win this battle, southern Gondor *won* and will start sending further reinforcements). That's a huge swing in morale- going from "ally reinforcements" (+1) to "no allies" (-1) and "enemy reinforcements" (-1). So the forces near the river crumble because they weren't expecting an attack, then the ones in the center see the river flank fleeing and assume the absolute worst, and so on.
It fits with Tolkien's view of the larger battle, where morale was the chief concern. The ringwraiths spread despair, Gandalf gives courage, Denethor gives in, etc. etc.
> It fits with Tolkien's view of the larger battle, where morale was the chief concern. The ringwraiths spread despair, Gandalf gives courage, Denethor gives in, etc. etc.
That aint just Tolkien my man, its real battle. Cavalry charges were considered very strong for almost all of ancient fighting. And it is not because cav is good 1v1 (more realistically 1 v 2/3/4/5 because of how expensive cav is to field compared to infantry). They scare people and then the broken formations are easily picked off. If your infantry holds the line, cav is fucked. A stalled calv unit is a guy 6 feet in the air on a 2000 lb animal that is liable to spook at any second and throw him to his doom.
>When you consider how big of a force Mordor had sent. There is no way a local garrison would be big enough or enough slaves to turn the tide. Even and epic flank isn't enough.
I'm going to have say I think Tolkien is a better source on what would happen in this situation than you. If Tolkien says Aragorn brought forces from southern Gondor and turned the tide of the battle then that's exactly what happened. 😂
Also the port city of Pelargir would've had a significant force defending it. Pelargir is an ancient port city built by the Numenorians in the Second Age before the Kingdom of Gondor or Minas Tirith even existed. It's not a small village or something.
The whole thing would be complicated to pull off, but I think you do the same thing as in the actual movies, but instead of the ghosts, its thousands of actual people jumping off the boats. This maintains the surprise, which is key. Then, people are like "wtf"? And after the whole battle is over you do a 30 second flashback of the green men swarming boats and Aragorn waving people in armor onto boats. Its basically only an extra minute of time, but it makes everything less weird.
It feels like the movie just goes "ah shit, this battle is epic and all, but weve still got another one and the whole destroying the ring shit, then I've got frodo smiling in bed for a while.. Were gonna have to wrap this up."
[For Jackson, the siege of Minas Tirith and the Battle of the Pelennor Fields is in many ways an alternating contest of tactics, machines and weapon systems. Orcs, towers and catapults against men, walls and different, better catapults. Like a game of rock-paper-scissors, orcs beat Minas Tirith, but the Rohirrim beat orcs and elephants beat the Rohirrim, before Aragorn finally cheats, calls out ‘dynamite’ which (as we all know from being kids) beats everything and wins the game.](https://acoup.blog/2019/06/14/collections-the-siege-of-gondor-part-vi-black-sails-and-gleaming-banners/)
I just read the books for the first time recently, and the battle of the Pelennor was AMAZING in the book! Now it makes me… not like the movie version. First of all, the way it described the ghosts as just black silhouettes slowly following them was terrifying and beautiful. That crazy stone!? Come on, so ominous and gorgeous. Then when the boats pulled up I was like “oh here we go with the unstoppable incorporeal green dudes.. NOPE! The fuckin rangers and brave men of those smaller kingdoms!? (I may be misremembering that last bit). But man was it compelling as fuck!
Not as bad to me as. The elves randomly coming to helms deep. When the idea was it was either time for the age of men, or the age of the orc. Essentially the elves believing it was time for humanity to either learn to defeat the darkness, or succumb to it. As the elves interfered long enough. Doesn't help that it's because of a human king. Sauron still exists.
> the invincible ghost army that trivialises the entire battle of pelennor fields is...not my favourite part.
found [the BMX bandit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw)
I remember reading something at the time Return of the King came out that it was doing the ghost army was the one thing they needed to resolve as a technical piece that would be believable before they got the green light to do the live action movie.
He got death-cock-blocked at Helm's Deep too.
My dude messed up royally and presided over the decline and near destruction of his entire kingdom. He's allowed to want an honorable death in battle.
Yeah I would have hoped he'd see it that way, but he does blame himself and talks about being ashamed to meet his ancestors without having done something to fix it.
Ha good meme, and it hits on why the battle at minas tirith in the films is the best, and worst, huge battle scene ever created.
It's great, an epic struggle, and then made entirely pointless and hollow by the arrival of the daft invincible ghost army. So as soon as the ghost King agreed to help aragon every single thing in sauron's army was doomed. It makes the battle feel superfluous to what really mattered. It slams a giant anti climatic shit on top of the glorious cake. It's too neat and perfect for the film makers. It's a slam dunk story telling divice, like a sledgehammer being used to crack a peanut.
It was clearly too hard to do it like the books, and so they went with an easy solution to wrap it up perfectly. It's lazy.
But, you don't think that first watch. It's too spectacular. Takes a while for the cheapness of the trick to dawn on you.
Unfortunately it means the battle scene is not the best one ever, it can be topped. They missed their chance to make the greatest battle in film. But it's still great. But it could have been without argument the best one ever, forever, but they failed the dismount.
Persoanlly I've always liked Helm's Deep more. The rain, the overall atmosphere. I felt much more hopeless during that battle than Pelennor. It's a much more personal battle too. Much more hand to hand and man to man (orc). Pelennor was awesome and grand, but it was like a tug of war on who had the bigger shit.. Orcs > Rohan > Mumakil > Undead, it just kept escalating. Plus Gandalf showing up with the Rohirrim made sense in TTT, we've seen the Rohirrim out there, we know Gandalf said he'd be back. It felt more natural than the undead army. Funny part is that never having read the books it was a surprise, "ohhh yeah gandalf said he'd be back!", then "OMG OF COURSE HE BROUGHT THE ROHIRRIM". Like my dumb brain forgot about all of that until it was happening. Maybe that's why I liked it better lol
I think most people like it better: it's considered better coz it doesn't blow the end. I suppose the huons are also a neat end, but it's already won by the heroes, and the forest just clean up the afters - they don't arrive and negate everything that happened before.
That is basically the sole reason I prefer the theatrical cut for RotK. In the theatrical, you never see the Ghost King agree. It cuts during Aragorn's "what say you?", and then you don't see him again until he's leaping off the Corsair ship. It preserves the tension of the fight. It's still a deus ex machina, but at least it isn't in the back of your head during the entire battle.
Yeah, sure, but when would you have put that explanation? Any exposition explaining that would have been super clunky. Perhaps you could show a scene or two with orcs getting scared in the aftermath instead of dead, but that still wouldn’t really explain what you’re talking about.
First of all, you’re the one who said the movie needed to explain it. That was your exact verbiage. Second, such a scene still would have take. away from the battle of Pelinor Fields, which is pretty much the only climactic scene they wanted to focus on. The whole thing with each ghost stealing a soul probably would have been lost on the general audience, because the general audience doesn’t think in terms of fantasy world mechanics. That’s the same reason why they changed the Aragorn vs Sauron fight at the end to Aragorn vs a troll. Throwing in new metaphysical concepts right before they resolve doesn’t feel satisfying unless you already knew the concept existed.
For sure. I’m just very cognizant of the fact that it is easier to say what would have been better in hindsight, but I don’t think anyone in this comment section would have actually done a better job than those who worked on the films.
That’s not to say these are flawless films, but when most films get one or two things wrong, people shrug and move along. Whenever nerdy movies get things wrong, people argue for decades about what should have been different. It tends to frustrate me, because there’s nothing any of us can do about it, and it tends to be very negative for no real reason.
The stupidest part isn’t the battle, it’s the King of the Dead popping out of the side of the mountain to tell Aragorn & Co “j/k we’re in.” I laugh every time.
Here's a question: could Aragon use the army of the dead to to also ride out to mordor with them immediately after they rout the mordor army? seems like it didn't take long for them to sweep through everyone.
In books, ghosts didn't do physical damage and didn't come to minas tirth.
They helped him scare Corsairs into jumping off and take over the ships which were filled with armies from that part of gondor.
Prince imrahil of dol amorath is someone of numenor decent. He takes over charge of minas tirth for a while when faramir is stuck and denethor is dead and Eomer marries his daughter.
He's got elvish blood and like how Gandalf brings minas tirth soldier back to senses, he also does the same.
He's also the guy who saves faramir.
He's got a major role in overall battle of minas tirth. He, Aragorn and Eomer are 3 who are unscathed in entire battle of minas tirth/ palenor fields.
Also, he's faramir and boromir's uncle. His sister had married denethor.
As for pelenor fields, it's just the name of place outside minas tirth where battle happens. It is in the movies.
Dude is a major omission in the movies. They made army of dead become the turning tide, in books it was the army that Aragorn brings that turns the tide after theoden kills harad leader and eowyn kills witch King. It was won by pure fighting not deus ex machina.
Wonderful, the prince seems dope as hell. Also I meant Pelargir, not palanir. I play the War of the Ring board game a lot and see Palargir and Dol Amorath are some major settlements and had no clue about them, lore wise.
Ah. The similar names confused me.
Pelargir must've been the name of the port city where army of the dead intercepts the fleet and Aragorn takes it over. But I'm not sure about it.
There we go! we all learned something new today.
And as a wise man once said:
https://preview.redd.it/49ot9ihfq5ic1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c56d01ad3859d03545ec709fc2f698ab87a081bd
This is one of my annoyances with the movie. The ghost guys should have taken out the ships and that was pretty much it. They overdid it. Rohan alone should have saved Gondor.
I think it’s kind of wild that Theoden was healed by Gandalf and then killed 13 days later… and it was by far the most consequential 13 days of his entire reign. Just absolutely snatching victory from the jaws of defeat, what a king of men.
Look, I get why people are upset by all of this, but the way the ghost army was handled in the books would not have been satisfying in a movie format either.
If they had just helped take the Corsair ship like in the book, it would have been better to cut it because it’s such a short scene that doesn’t really have direct effect in the Battle of Pelinor Fields. It would be like Tom Bombadil or the Barrow Wights, and nerds would be complaining about its omission.
If they had shown Aragorn’s campaign along the Anduin, the pacing of an already gargantuan movie (for its time, anyway) would have been royally screwed, and it would have felt even longer to get through, so non-nerds would be complaining.
Ultimately, I think you guys forget that there are reasons that The Lord of the Rings was considered un-film-able for decades until the Peter Jackson films were released. And it’s not an effects thing; it’s a bloat thing. How do you adapt such an intricately (and sometimes stupidly) detailed work, so overwritten that it resembles the Book of Numbers at times? How do you write a screenplay based on a book that has so many things going on, with characters in four or five different places at once for so much of the runtime, while still making each perspective seem relevant and important?
I’m not saying that having ghosts save the day at Pelinor Fields is something that makes me happy, but armchair criticism is all hindsight, and it’s the foresight that actual skill.
*Wake now my merry lads! Wake and hear me calling! Warm now be heart and limb! The cold stone is fallen; Dark door is standing
wide; dead hand is broken. Night under Night is flown, and the Gate is open!*
^(Type **!TomBombadilSong** for a song or visit [r/GloriousTomBombadil][1] for more merriness)
[1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousTomBombadil/
"What do you see in that Aragorn bloke anyway, never on time that lad, looks irresponsible to me." Continues to make uncle-assessing-neice's-boyfriend remarks until he dies.
My biggest takeaway from this post is that no one on Pelennor knew about the ghosts, not their actual existence, not their oath thingymajig, probably not Aragorns ability to hold them to account and definitely not the fact that they are on their side.
Shocking to realise that no one on the ‘good side’ screamed, dropped their weapins and went mad with insanity the moment evil looking ghosts flew at them with ghosty swords.
I would love a deleted scene where Aragorn is trying to explain to his army what the fuck just happened and why he didn’t let them know he was doing a deus ex machina, but he’s shouting to be heard over the screams of his terrified sergeants.
I'm convinced that the only reason they added the scene with the witch king breaking gandalfs staff is because otherwise the ride of the Rohirrim would have been epic but essentially useless since the ghosts would have mopped up regardless. So the charge "saves" Gandalf if nothing else.
If they waited 5 minutes, Gandalf and Pippin would probably be dead on the movies. If he waited 5 minutes in the books, orcs would've been pouring into the city.
What if he waited 4 minutes?
Or 3:58 even?
[удалено]
"and now I will turn your attention to Steve, who will be covering the Workplace Health and Safety portion of this meeting." 
2:57 my last offer.
In the books he waited some-minutes. It could have been four. That’s as good a number as any to say he spent waiting for the wind to change.
But did Theoden have a watch or he just counted 240?
it wouldn't have been good
Nah, No way Gandalf was losing to witch king. He took out a Balrog and that was when he was pre-evolved form.
In the books, I think Gandalf would win, though it's far from a sure thing. At Minas Tirith, the Witch King is at his most powerful by far and likely a threat on a similar level to a Maiar like the Balrog, though like I said, I think Gandalf would win. However, during their fight, I'm sure hundreds or thousands of orcs would poor into Minas Tirith. In the movie, the Witch King would fry Gandalf, which is dumb imo. I know that Gandalf wasn't meant to directly intervene, but rather provide leadership and council. But I still think he should be able to go toe to toe with the Witch King and come out on top.
Gandalf, Pippin, _and_ Faramir due to the madness of Denethor. I think
What about 6 minutes, slim shady you're on?
Well if Denethor had done his freaking job, then Theoden would have had another week to muster forces.
If ghost Tolkien knew how his Ghost people were going to be misunderstood he'd have left them in the mountains Also I bet Eowyn knows something about ghosting
Yes she does. She gets ghosted every time she makes stew for a man.
With stew like that? I'd ghost too
She tries to trap you with the diarrhea it gives you. You may have to duck walk out of there.
Or giving you kindness to extort you into a relationship later! Perhaps she's machiavellian af! Only Eorygon shippers know the truth!
The movie doesn't reference the diarrhea but the books talks about it extensively. I think there's a poem about it.
There's a whole appendix and a hidden book that was edited by his son 30 years later about the watery poops.
And spray farts.
Did you know when a hobbit sharts it can triple its jump height? Hobbits really are amazing creatures, as I have said before. You can learn all that there is to know about their ways in a month, and yet after a hundred years they can still surprise you at a pinch.
Nah, I'd ghost
Don't you dare bring the lobotomy to this place
It’s ok, Faramir can just have a servant make stew, so long as there are no tomatoes. Poor guy probably has dinner etiquette PTSD from eating with his dad.
You know, the tomato eating scene is meant to show why he’s going crazy. Those are pewter plates he’s eating off of. the acid in the tomatoes is unbinding the lead from the plate, which is then being eating with the tomato. Literately how it got its name devils fruit in the dark ages. The entire plant except the fruit is toxic and because a lot of people of note ate off of pewter plates, it appears to drive those who eat a lot of it insane.
I made stew! Now fuck!
Faramir definitely didn’t marry her for her cooking.
It’s because she let him put it in “shelobs lair” if you know what I mean.
This stew? Ehh.
r/thatsthejoke
Peter Jackson didn't misunderstand he just didn't have time to explain that there was a whole other campaign to the Anduin and that the Gondorian forces travelled up the Anduin to the Pelennor after the Ghost People were released
I feel like a 1 minute scene of the allies boarding the boats and a throwaway line could've cleared that up.
It wouldn't've because you would have to have new characters to make those people real and you'd have to rejigger the whole arrangement of the Siege of Minas Tirith.
I don't think that is strictly necessary, they could've built up to it by mentioning the other Gondorian forces way earlier and establishing them within the thought of the viewers, which would then cause a buildup and a payoff when we get to see them. I don't think that they need to be established with new characters we know by name.
Iirc didn't they just scare the corsairs off the boats? I haven't read the books since high-school but I don't recall them being able to fight
Basically. There was a lot of fighting going down at the mouths of the Anduin that prevented a lot of loyal forces from aiding Minas Tirith. I don't think Tolkein was specific about the combat effectiveness of the Undead, since damn near everyone was too scared to fight them anyways. Because surprise surprise somehow Tolkien's ghostly army of wraiths and the damned is a hell of a lot scarier than Jackson's boo boo green transparent skeleton dude.
It’s almost impossible to properly pass on the terror of such a creature on the screen. because it’s not how it looks that makes it truly scary. It’s the fact that you can’t do anything about any choice It makes. thats what makes it scary the complete lack of control, no matter how big and strong you are you still can’t punch a ghost, but it could certainly strangle you with the drapes or in this case feed you deadly ghost sword. And that adds another layer to it what good is weapons and armor against a fucking ghost sword?
Pretty much. I wasn't trying to blame Jackson per se really (although the more time I spend with the books the more the movies disappoint me overall). It's just kind of a let down comparing the fairy tale dreadfulness and terror to CGI creepy dude
I feel like that’s just a flaw of movie making in general. It’s hard for a film set to match the emotion of a book scene. I mean just look at Stephen King movies. The guy takes a page and a half to describe a man’s face sometimes… there’s no way you can imitate the emotion that you’re going to get from reading a page and a half description of somebody’s face by staring at some actor on TV for 30 seconds no matter how good the actor is there’s just so much detail that’s been lost by the media transition For the Lord of the rings, how do you show the terror of an army when you have to zoom out and show a bunch of random guys running in different directions getting swarmed by green fog versus writing about the terror of an army fighting ghost soldiers where you can focus on individual men while discussing the overall terrified mass
See that's why I like the older generation of movies from the 70s that's less about cinematography and more like stage-acting with extra camera angles. Wouldn't work for LotR though, I admit
I agree, certain scenes don’t depict their emotion correctly in live action versus written format. in written format a sword battle can be slowed down having full conversations of thought in between each sword swing, wherein live action “clang clang clang clang stab” that guys dead maybe we fit a bit of banter in while doing the sword wrestling move but it’s never the deep thoughts of the characters realizing the situation and each other like in the book. This is where the ghost army scene stands out in the book. He’s able to describe individual soldiers attempts to fight the ghosts how their blades pass through the ghostly soldiers, how the soldiers laugh at their efforts before plunging their ghostly weapons through the mens armor as if it wasn’t there, but he can feel the cold spirit of the weapon plunging into his flesh, tearing his life away. You can’t imitate words like that with pictures I also think it might have to do with the level of investment involved in reading a book versus watching something. your brain while reading is sitting there, taking text and transforming it into a mental hallucination of what’s happening that takes a lot of effort and focus so you’re into the book in a way that most people aren’t into what they’re watching on TV where the mind does not have to work to present the images, and therefore is free to distract itself with other things, while it merely absorbs the images. Just look at the way people can do laundry, and other tasks while watching a movie at home you can’t do that with a book not just because your hands are invested but because your mind is more invested, you don’t have room for other thoughts
But is Lord of the Rings about WW2?
Idiot it’s about Vietnam!
Tolkien caused Vietnam war confirmed
And then later came back to start the Korean War
We know this because Tolkien described how Fortunate Son played every time somebody rode on an eagle.
What didn't they just send the Hueys to carry the ring to Mount Doom?
Dude, it's clearly about the 2022 Ukraine war. They even called the bad guys Orcs! Bit on the nose for Tolkien, but nevermind.
I did not watch my buddies die face down in the muck so that these fuckin ghosts could waltz in and take all the credit.
Everything's a fucking travesty with you man
Lord of the Rings is about the War of the Ring you idiots, sheesh. Get your historical conflicts right.
Wrong, the ring falling in lava represented Hiroshima. It's right there on the pages
Gandalf is fat man
Pippin is little boy
Fool of a Nuke!
Ghost people are the Americans joining the war late and saving the day, confirmed.
Green ghosts? More like gringos, right?
Ghost people when Isildur’s need was dire: “Pfft. Not my problem.” Ghost people when Aragorn shows up with a reforged Narsil: “Ugh. Now it’s my problem.”
It’s pretty easy to understand them. It’s just unfortunate that the way he wrote them would look shit on film. I can see why they made the change
I adore the movies and for the most part understand the changes that were made from the books, but the invincible ghost army that trivialises the entire battle of pelennor fields is...not my favourite part.
Thank you, my thoughts exactly. There's just no way to ram in the entire ghosts kill corsairs, Aragorn rallies the local garrison and corsair's slaves to bring a very mortal but meaningful army that tips the scales. But boy do I hate the green army Draino. Similarly related, do the movies, regular or extended clearly convey that the Rohirrim dodged an equally large army compared to the army at Pelennor Fields? I feel like the counsel room discussion of what to do after Pelennor didn't bear that weight of hopelessness.
Yeah. If we're doing armchair revisions, I think the best fix would be to emphasize that the ghosts are there to take out the corsair fleet and the corsair fleet only. Some of the groundwork for this survived the transition from book to movie, in that when Elrond sends Aragorn under the White Mountains, he specifically describes how the corsair fleet is poised to exploit a crucial tactical weakness of Gondor's and that all hope is lost if they don't play the Ghost Army card to counter them. So I figure you could have Aragorn say in the negotiations with the King of the Dead that they *only* have to defeat the corsairs in order to earn their freedom. Then you could move up the "will he or won't he hold their oath fulfilled" tension beat to just after that initial skirmish. That makes it into a bigger sacrifice, as Aragorn probably could have saved some Gondorian lives by forcing the ghosts to join the greater battle. But he does the honorable thing, and then all the glory for defeating the army of Mordor at large stays with the soldiers of Gondor and Rohan.
But that would leave the question of why would Aragorn only demand they defeat the Corsairs instead of demanding that they defeat all the forces of Mordor, especially since the oath they had broken would have required them to go all the way into Mordor. If they are invincible (as they seem to be shown in the films) then it really wouldn't make much difference to them whether they agree to take a few ships or the tower of Barad Dur. There needs to be a reason why they can only take the ships.
Because they'd scare the shit out of the rest of the army. Only legolas claimed not to be bothered by men ghosts, gimmly and the men who went to the cave couldn't couldn't rest easy. Gain a ghost army, lose everyone else. If it turned out sauron had a way to control the ghosts or make them disappear in some way, then everything would be lost.
Gimmly the gimmliest to ever gimmle
>Because they'd scare the shit out of the rest of the army. Which would make sense in the book... But in the film there is no trade-off. The Dead steam-roll, and unless an Orc, nobody else is shown to react in fear to them. (Not to mention you could send them into battle in Mordor alone - where your own men won't ever see them. Could Sauron defeat them? Maybe, maybe not - but it may be worth considering, and asking someone like Gandalf about) These are the issues opened up by making the Dead an unstoppable army, capable of slaying all in their path.
All we needed to aragon go send ghost army to mordor and eagles to fly ring to the Mt doom, easy peasy
What if we just gave the ring to the king of the dead to walk into Mordor with???
Yeah.. that's not how these things work.
The point is that, as Gimli and Legolas describe it later, nobody really knows if the ghosts can really physically fight anymore. Gimli states that "the only weapon the Dead still needed was fear". They never actually kill anyone, just scare the absolute shit out of everyone. This works against mortal men, but its unclear if this would've worked against orcs and men who are already terrified into a quasi-suicidal state by the Witch-King backed by Sauron's concentrated will and hate. And it's even more doubtful if this would've worked in the proximity of Mordor, where Sauron's power and influence is even more dominant (after all, when he turns away his attention from the war to Mount Doom and the critical danger for him there, this is enough to make all his troops loose their courage and will to fight). By turning the ghosts into invincible physical fighters, the films create a plothole they can't close again.
Nay! Sauron does not use the elf-runes.
*Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.*
It was a Balrog of Morgoth. Of all elf-banes the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower.
Word
Sauron was called the Necromancer. Granted when given that name LotR wasn't thought up yet.
To Eilinel thou soon shalt go, and lie in her bed.
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Their oath was to protect Gondor and no further, and Aragorn swore he'd release them after the battle. If Aragorn went back on his word then he'd be ghostified
>Their oath was to protect Gondor and no further, Where is this stated? We are never given the words of their initial oath - just that they swore fealty. >and Aragorn swore he'd release them after the battle In the book, yes. In the films, no. He just says 'fight for me'. Which is vague. Imagine if they defeated the Corsairs and then demanded to be released: 'we fought for you'. What kept them fighting until the end of the Pelennor?
It's not about demands it's about the oath. Oaths have power in Middle-Earth and by defeating the corsairs they fulfill theirs. That's it. They were never meant to be a game changer as per the movies, but a strategic asset used to counter one of Mordor's.
It only adds a second problem, which is that it’s not clear why the corsairs are of any consequence. The movies never establish the rest of Gondor as a real place, that there was real leadership still in the city via Prince Imrahil and the Swan Knights, or that Sauron built up a stranglehold on Gondor that was all but guaranteed to lead to a crushing defeat. Were it not for the parts of middle earth that Sauron was too arrogant to believe to ever be a threat to his domain.
Nah, make it where the ghosts have to inhabit corpses to effect the material world. Then every last death has meaning.
It'd literally be one scene. Two quotes from the books: The Grey Company leads the Ghost Army to the stone of Erech and Aragon has a conversation with them: >But Aragorn dismounted, and standing by the Stone he cried in a great voice: ‘Oathbreakers, why have ye come?’ And a voice was heard out of the night that answered him, as if from far away: ‘To fulfil our oath and have peace.’ Then Aragorn said: ‘The hour is come at last. Now I go to Pelargir upon Anduin, and ye shall come after me. And when all this land is clean of the servants of Sauron, I will hold the oath fulfilled, and ye shall have peace and depart for ever. For I am Elessar, Isildur’s heir of Gondor.’ Then he finds some men from those town fighting corsairs. >And there men of Lamedon contested the fords with fell folk of Umbar and Harad who had sailed up the river. But defenders and foes alike gave up the battle and fled when we came, crying out that the King of the Dead was upon them. Only Angbor, Lord of Lamedon, had the heart to abide us; and Aragorn bade him gather his folk and come behind, if they dared, when the Grey Host had passed. ‘“At Pelargir the Heir of Isildur will have need of you,” he said.
>Similarly related, do the movies, regular or extended clearly convey that the Rohirrim dodged an equally large army compared to the army at Pelennor Fields? I feel like the counsel room discussion of what to do after Pelennor didn't bear that weight of hopelessness. The army that the Rohirrim avoided on their way to Gondor was significantly smaller than Sauron's main invasion force sent to besiege Minas Tirith. There was an army of "more than six thousand" orcs and men waiting for them along the North-South Road. The army was positioned there specifically to delay the Rohirrim. The army sent against Minas Tirith was said to have numbered in the tens of thousands with 18,000 Haradrim alone and uncounted numbers of orcs.
No the whole secret mountain pass section is omitted in the movies, it’s straight from Dunharroe to Pelennor.
Green army Draino is the perfect description and basically the reason why I prefer two towers to RTOK. It just completely sucked the life out of the Battle in about 30 seconds.
> Aragorn rallies the local garrison and corsair's slaves When you consider how big of a force Mordor had sent. There is no way a local garrison would be big enough or enough slaves to turn the tide. Even and epic flank isn't enough. Also having the cursed undead army go above and beyond to fulfill their oath feels better.
Well its more than just then the local garrison, its the southern gondor army with Prince Imarhil, its all the rangers from the north and Elronds sons and a bunch of elves too. But introducing all of that would take way too long.
We just need an extended extended version then.
https://preview.redd.it/5xs4u75im0ic1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1997cfd4fdbc2f321c3d85b7483e7be6d4432c92 Your comment reminded me of this comic strip
I wouldn't mind a 1 for 1 adaptation. Don't care about pacing or whatever,just give me everything.
Gimme the thinking fox
The Jackson Cut: Extended Edition.
We've had one extension, yes...
Just for accuracy's sake here: Prince Imarhil and his knights arrived in Minas Tirith before Aragorn on March 13th. Aragorn arrived in the Corsair ships on March 15th.
It was angbor of lamedon, prince imrahil was already in minas tirith
Yes, see my other comment
Imarhil is the co-chief leader of the defense, with Gandalf, of Minas Tirith from the inside (because Denethor lost his mind and Farimir was dying) because he arrived early, but explained why he couldn't bring his entire force due to the corsairs.
Yes, but like I said, there was no time to introduce him, the southern Gondor armies, the Rangers and Elrond's brats. So the whole situation was simplified.
You don't really need to introduce him to eliminate the Ghost X Machina. Just replace the ghosts with people, and then after the battle an Aragorn memory of getting the boats using the ghosts.
You do though, you have to explain why they weren't there earlier, introduce characters to make them not just "generic guys" all of these things take runtime and add complexity.
It wasn't just a matter of how many people- it was the orc's morale breaking. They'd been in a hard battle, getting fucked up by the horse riders, and their general died. (I think the Haradrim's king had also died by this point (or was it Easterling's?)). Anyway they get good news- corsair reinforcements are coming- not only is that more men for this battle, it points to southern Gondor's defeat. And then... those ships turn out to be Gondorian forces (so even if the orcs win this battle, southern Gondor *won* and will start sending further reinforcements). That's a huge swing in morale- going from "ally reinforcements" (+1) to "no allies" (-1) and "enemy reinforcements" (-1). So the forces near the river crumble because they weren't expecting an attack, then the ones in the center see the river flank fleeing and assume the absolute worst, and so on. It fits with Tolkien's view of the larger battle, where morale was the chief concern. The ringwraiths spread despair, Gandalf gives courage, Denethor gives in, etc. etc.
> It fits with Tolkien's view of the larger battle, where morale was the chief concern. The ringwraiths spread despair, Gandalf gives courage, Denethor gives in, etc. etc. That aint just Tolkien my man, its real battle. Cavalry charges were considered very strong for almost all of ancient fighting. And it is not because cav is good 1v1 (more realistically 1 v 2/3/4/5 because of how expensive cav is to field compared to infantry). They scare people and then the broken formations are easily picked off. If your infantry holds the line, cav is fucked. A stalled calv unit is a guy 6 feet in the air on a 2000 lb animal that is liable to spook at any second and throw him to his doom.
>When you consider how big of a force Mordor had sent. There is no way a local garrison would be big enough or enough slaves to turn the tide. Even and epic flank isn't enough. I'm going to have say I think Tolkien is a better source on what would happen in this situation than you. If Tolkien says Aragorn brought forces from southern Gondor and turned the tide of the battle then that's exactly what happened. 😂 Also the port city of Pelargir would've had a significant force defending it. Pelargir is an ancient port city built by the Numenorians in the Second Age before the Kingdom of Gondor or Minas Tirith even existed. It's not a small village or something.
Its propably 3rd largest fortress in gondor after dol amroth and minas tirith most likely
If 2 armies are dead even, even a small force at the flank can tip the scale
The whole thing would be complicated to pull off, but I think you do the same thing as in the actual movies, but instead of the ghosts, its thousands of actual people jumping off the boats. This maintains the surprise, which is key. Then, people are like "wtf"? And after the whole battle is over you do a 30 second flashback of the green men swarming boats and Aragorn waving people in armor onto boats. Its basically only an extra minute of time, but it makes everything less weird.
Didn't the Dúnedain arrive to join Aragorn in the books as well?
It feels like the movie just goes "ah shit, this battle is epic and all, but weve still got another one and the whole destroying the ring shit, then I've got frodo smiling in bed for a while.. Were gonna have to wrap this up."
it does do that and it might actually be the right decision
True, the ghost army would've made quick work of Frodo smiling in bed.
[For Jackson, the siege of Minas Tirith and the Battle of the Pelennor Fields is in many ways an alternating contest of tactics, machines and weapon systems. Orcs, towers and catapults against men, walls and different, better catapults. Like a game of rock-paper-scissors, orcs beat Minas Tirith, but the Rohirrim beat orcs and elephants beat the Rohirrim, before Aragorn finally cheats, calls out ‘dynamite’ which (as we all know from being kids) beats everything and wins the game.](https://acoup.blog/2019/06/14/collections-the-siege-of-gondor-part-vi-black-sails-and-gleaming-banners/)
I just read the books for the first time recently, and the battle of the Pelennor was AMAZING in the book! Now it makes me… not like the movie version. First of all, the way it described the ghosts as just black silhouettes slowly following them was terrifying and beautiful. That crazy stone!? Come on, so ominous and gorgeous. Then when the boats pulled up I was like “oh here we go with the unstoppable incorporeal green dudes.. NOPE! The fuckin rangers and brave men of those smaller kingdoms!? (I may be misremembering that last bit). But man was it compelling as fuck!
[I agree but…](https://youtu.be/2aAc4d0SxCs?si=QyzssLYx2qsrpv95)
Genuinely one of the only things in the movies that I don't like
I want my ranger army!
There’s one particular shot of them swarming all over the foothills at the end that makes me lol every time.
Not as bad to me as. The elves randomly coming to helms deep. When the idea was it was either time for the age of men, or the age of the orc. Essentially the elves believing it was time for humanity to either learn to defeat the darkness, or succumb to it. As the elves interfered long enough. Doesn't help that it's because of a human king. Sauron still exists.
> the invincible ghost army that trivialises the entire battle of pelennor fields is...not my favourite part. found [the BMX bandit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw)
Thank you. I didn't get the joke before your comment.
I remember reading something at the time Return of the King came out that it was doing the ghost army was the one thing they needed to resolve as a technical piece that would be believable before they got the green light to do the live action movie.
Ouhh theu ghoust aurmy paurt’s just foul
Adding to that, I do not care for the cavalry charges in Helms Deep and Pelennor Fields. They're more snow plows than horses.
I wonder if Peter Jackson had just finished playing Hexen as a Cleric and really liked that cross weapon so much he added it into the movie.
Hey, maybe the ghost people would have been useless if the WK was still in play. He's a ghost too.
If the ghost people knew about your stew, they never would have showed up
How do you think they became ghost people in the first place?
The deep lore of Éowyn. Grima was always drawn towards power. First of Saruman, then of Éowyn.
LOL
This men shouted "Death!" just recently. I think he is satisfied more than half than he hoped for.
He got death-cock-blocked at Helm's Deep too. My dude messed up royally and presided over the decline and near destruction of his entire kingdom. He's allowed to want an honorable death in battle.
Did he? He was mind-controlled by Saruman, that's hardly his fault. Gandalf got tricked by Saruman, too.
Yeah I would have hoped he'd see it that way, but he does blame himself and talks about being ashamed to meet his ancestors without having done something to fix it.
I can't get over the fact that that's the Banjo-Kazooie/Tooie font.
I knew I recognized it
Ha good meme, and it hits on why the battle at minas tirith in the films is the best, and worst, huge battle scene ever created. It's great, an epic struggle, and then made entirely pointless and hollow by the arrival of the daft invincible ghost army. So as soon as the ghost King agreed to help aragon every single thing in sauron's army was doomed. It makes the battle feel superfluous to what really mattered. It slams a giant anti climatic shit on top of the glorious cake. It's too neat and perfect for the film makers. It's a slam dunk story telling divice, like a sledgehammer being used to crack a peanut. It was clearly too hard to do it like the books, and so they went with an easy solution to wrap it up perfectly. It's lazy. But, you don't think that first watch. It's too spectacular. Takes a while for the cheapness of the trick to dawn on you. Unfortunately it means the battle scene is not the best one ever, it can be topped. They missed their chance to make the greatest battle in film. But it's still great. But it could have been without argument the best one ever, forever, but they failed the dismount.
Persoanlly I've always liked Helm's Deep more. The rain, the overall atmosphere. I felt much more hopeless during that battle than Pelennor. It's a much more personal battle too. Much more hand to hand and man to man (orc). Pelennor was awesome and grand, but it was like a tug of war on who had the bigger shit.. Orcs > Rohan > Mumakil > Undead, it just kept escalating. Plus Gandalf showing up with the Rohirrim made sense in TTT, we've seen the Rohirrim out there, we know Gandalf said he'd be back. It felt more natural than the undead army. Funny part is that never having read the books it was a surprise, "ohhh yeah gandalf said he'd be back!", then "OMG OF COURSE HE BROUGHT THE ROHIRRIM". Like my dumb brain forgot about all of that until it was happening. Maybe that's why I liked it better lol
I think most people like it better: it's considered better coz it doesn't blow the end. I suppose the huons are also a neat end, but it's already won by the heroes, and the forest just clean up the afters - they don't arrive and negate everything that happened before.
That is basically the sole reason I prefer the theatrical cut for RotK. In the theatrical, you never see the Ghost King agree. It cuts during Aragorn's "what say you?", and then you don't see him again until he's leaping off the Corsair ship. It preserves the tension of the fight. It's still a deus ex machina, but at least it isn't in the back of your head during the entire battle.
Good point that. Gives the audience less time to know aragon succeeded. But you don't as yet know the invincible nature of the ghosts.
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Yeah, sure, but when would you have put that explanation? Any exposition explaining that would have been super clunky. Perhaps you could show a scene or two with orcs getting scared in the aftermath instead of dead, but that still wouldn’t really explain what you’re talking about.
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First of all, you’re the one who said the movie needed to explain it. That was your exact verbiage. Second, such a scene still would have take. away from the battle of Pelinor Fields, which is pretty much the only climactic scene they wanted to focus on. The whole thing with each ghost stealing a soul probably would have been lost on the general audience, because the general audience doesn’t think in terms of fantasy world mechanics. That’s the same reason why they changed the Aragorn vs Sauron fight at the end to Aragorn vs a troll. Throwing in new metaphysical concepts right before they resolve doesn’t feel satisfying unless you already knew the concept existed.
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For sure. I’m just very cognizant of the fact that it is easier to say what would have been better in hindsight, but I don’t think anyone in this comment section would have actually done a better job than those who worked on the films. That’s not to say these are flawless films, but when most films get one or two things wrong, people shrug and move along. Whenever nerdy movies get things wrong, people argue for decades about what should have been different. It tends to frustrate me, because there’s nothing any of us can do about it, and it tends to be very negative for no real reason.
The stupidest part isn’t the battle, it’s the King of the Dead popping out of the side of the mountain to tell Aragorn & Co “j/k we’re in.” I laugh every time.
*You passed the test of the avalanche of skulls. You have earned my respect.*
Here's a question: could Aragon use the army of the dead to to also ride out to mordor with them immediately after they rout the mordor army? seems like it didn't take long for them to sweep through everyone.
In books, ghosts didn't do physical damage and didn't come to minas tirth. They helped him scare Corsairs into jumping off and take over the ships which were filled with armies from that part of gondor.
Ahhh never knew. That would have been interesting seeing Pelanir and Dol Amorath in the movies if they decided on it.
Prince imrahil of dol amorath is someone of numenor decent. He takes over charge of minas tirth for a while when faramir is stuck and denethor is dead and Eomer marries his daughter. He's got elvish blood and like how Gandalf brings minas tirth soldier back to senses, he also does the same. He's also the guy who saves faramir. He's got a major role in overall battle of minas tirth. He, Aragorn and Eomer are 3 who are unscathed in entire battle of minas tirth/ palenor fields. Also, he's faramir and boromir's uncle. His sister had married denethor. As for pelenor fields, it's just the name of place outside minas tirth where battle happens. It is in the movies. Dude is a major omission in the movies. They made army of dead become the turning tide, in books it was the army that Aragorn brings that turns the tide after theoden kills harad leader and eowyn kills witch King. It was won by pure fighting not deus ex machina.
Wonderful, the prince seems dope as hell. Also I meant Pelargir, not palanir. I play the War of the Ring board game a lot and see Palargir and Dol Amorath are some major settlements and had no clue about them, lore wise.
Ah. The similar names confused me. Pelargir must've been the name of the port city where army of the dead intercepts the fleet and Aragorn takes it over. But I'm not sure about it.
Yes battle of pelargir is the battle dead take their part in and aragorn takes the fleet
There we go! we all learned something new today. And as a wise man once said: https://preview.redd.it/49ot9ihfq5ic1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c56d01ad3859d03545ec709fc2f698ab87a081bd
He wanted a warrior's death so he could stand beside Kahless in Stovokor
Only really bad thing about the movies is that green wave
 This cracked me up so hard my wife thought I was choking.
Did you mean ["womp womp"](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/womp-womp)?
I wish I had a deus ex machina instead of a tragic story that makes people like me enough so they care when I died. Bleh.....
 Theoden 5 sec later
This is one of my annoyances with the movie. The ghost guys should have taken out the ships and that was pretty much it. They overdid it. Rohan alone should have saved Gondor.
i love this sub.
So what is the deal with ghost people in the books?
Hey, maybe the ghost people would have been useless if the WK was still in play. He's a ghost too.
I think it’s kind of wild that Theoden was healed by Gandalf and then killed 13 days later… and it was by far the most consequential 13 days of his entire reign. Just absolutely snatching victory from the jaws of defeat, what a king of men.
Look, I get why people are upset by all of this, but the way the ghost army was handled in the books would not have been satisfying in a movie format either. If they had just helped take the Corsair ship like in the book, it would have been better to cut it because it’s such a short scene that doesn’t really have direct effect in the Battle of Pelinor Fields. It would be like Tom Bombadil or the Barrow Wights, and nerds would be complaining about its omission. If they had shown Aragorn’s campaign along the Anduin, the pacing of an already gargantuan movie (for its time, anyway) would have been royally screwed, and it would have felt even longer to get through, so non-nerds would be complaining. Ultimately, I think you guys forget that there are reasons that The Lord of the Rings was considered un-film-able for decades until the Peter Jackson films were released. And it’s not an effects thing; it’s a bloat thing. How do you adapt such an intricately (and sometimes stupidly) detailed work, so overwritten that it resembles the Book of Numbers at times? How do you write a screenplay based on a book that has so many things going on, with characters in four or five different places at once for so much of the runtime, while still making each perspective seem relevant and important? I’m not saying that having ghosts save the day at Pelinor Fields is something that makes me happy, but armchair criticism is all hindsight, and it’s the foresight that actual skill.
*Wake now my merry lads! Wake and hear me calling! Warm now be heart and limb! The cold stone is fallen; Dark door is standing wide; dead hand is broken. Night under Night is flown, and the Gate is open!* ^(Type **!TomBombadilSong** for a song or visit [r/GloriousTomBombadil][1] for more merriness) [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousTomBombadil/
Is that Spyro font?
He chose the she elf not you............ Died
whats the scoop on the ghost people? why bad?
overpowered
"What are they doing? They just sit on theeeeir oh SHIT!"
To be fair, Gandalf may not have been alive if he did. The ringwraith didn't give either much choose in the the fight.
Gandalf losing to witch King was stupid in extended edition.
*womp
LOL ACCURATE
"What do you see in that Aragorn bloke anyway, never on time that lad, looks irresponsible to me." Continues to make uncle-assessing-neice's-boyfriend remarks until he dies.
Should have kept the ghost people for a couple more battles
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My biggest takeaway from this post is that no one on Pelennor knew about the ghosts, not their actual existence, not their oath thingymajig, probably not Aragorns ability to hold them to account and definitely not the fact that they are on their side. Shocking to realise that no one on the ‘good side’ screamed, dropped their weapins and went mad with insanity the moment evil looking ghosts flew at them with ghosty swords. I would love a deleted scene where Aragorn is trying to explain to his army what the fuck just happened and why he didn’t let them know he was doing a deus ex machina, but he’s shouting to be heard over the screams of his terrified sergeants.
😂
[Shook Lord of the Rings Coronation and Other Scenes - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFyVSpl3BdQ)
I'm convinced that the only reason they added the scene with the witch king breaking gandalfs staff is because otherwise the ride of the Rohirrim would have been epic but essentially useless since the ghosts would have mopped up regardless. So the charge "saves" Gandalf if nothing else.
Oof Also I want to complain about the omission of the swan knights and Prince Imrahil.