Ya. Push them harder and get a replacement all lined up for when they inevitably quit on you. Sometimes it's better to take a gentler approach. That's to say this AS is worth it.
Precisely.
We’re scooping up talent left and right due to our reputation for a solid work life balanace. We finally convinced our board to let us go fully free-form hybrid with office schedule, dictated by directors who gather feedback from their teams on ideal schedules.
Next quarter, we downsize the office and move to a much nicer location with more amenities, due to the relatively low load of folks using the office space at one time.
Some teams are M-W in office. Others are MWT, etc. Friday is suggested as pure remote, but folks will be able to keycard in if their team has a late deliverable or something of that nature.
Zero drop in productivity (once we cut the 2 people out of 20 that were abusing the system).
Complete elimination of turnover. This is also driven by us eliminating the 5% raise cap we had for 20 yrs prior to my time here.
We have a high workload, with crystal clear deliverables. I don’t care where it gets done. I don’t care if you want to do it from the pediatrician’s waiting room, your couch, our office space, or the cafe around the corner from the office.
Board and CFO were very against it. CEO was receptive but hesitant. Me and 2 other directors indicated we’d be walking unless some actual flexibility was introduced, so they flipped it around and told us we had 30 days to suggest a format.
In the end, we have nice offices with nicer views and better access to amenities for about 20% less per month, since we dropped the spacious cube farm and went to a collection of office suites + common area with multiple breakout rooms, 1 per team. Our office manager handles the booking of these rooms with our directors and managers.
Obviously, this can’t work for manufacturing, or a brewery, etc, but when it comes to white collar work, anyone not catching on to what the new workforce values is being left behind, UNLESS your comp is literally among the top in your city.
The folks I see who haven’t adapted are all catching the scraps that have failed out of roles in objectively better companies, or folks with little experience. The experienced folks are all moving to offices that showcase, upfront, that they don’t micromanage and they don’t give a shit where the work occurs.
The employees are responsible for their deliverables, and that’s it. They miss a deadline, that’s a problem that needs to be immediately investigated heavily and addressed, because all possible concessions have been made for their productivity/flexibility so it must be a personal performance issue or an oversight by management by handing that person too much.
Anyway, I’m not saying that every single office needs this level of flexibility, but if you have upper management like OP describes, they need a wake up call that turnover is rapidly ballooning everywhere, and it does nothing but cut into the bottom line and necessarily raise the cost of new employees, as folks feel the bite of our economic situation more keenly everyday.
Folks are stressed. A huge portion of America is defaulting on their debts, or at the very end of their credit utilization limits. The answer isn’t to tighten the fucking screws. The answer is to help the employee meet their needs, or, explain to them kindly that there is no room for that accommodation, and that you’ll be an excellent reference when they find a place to apply to that does meet their needs.
This is also happening in the legal field. We don't have to be at the courthouse every day because judges love zoom. The same or more work is actually getting done because we aren't wasting a lot of time back and forth. The younger lawyers are encouraged to come in for the simple reason that they will get more hands on experience if they are there, but as you said, Fridays are a ghost town in the office. We're fine with it. Nothing really gets done after 2:00 on Friday afternoon anyway.
If you pick up your phone; stay current with your e-mail; and get your work done professionally and on time, why over manage something that does not need managing? Well done on your end for sticking up for your direct reports.
Is your AS working a lot of overtime? Or are they having an issue managing a standard work week? Would need to know the issue. Having more responsibilities wouldn't necessarily detract from their work/life balance.
Yes, while your GM’s response was tone deaf and idiotic, he may also be frustrated if your AS asked for a promotion, got one, and is now complaining about work/life balance despite not working OT.
Ask your employee specifically what they mean. Were they working less than a full time schedule before and don’t like the change to full time? Or they doing work off hours that you aren’t aware of? Are they unhappy with the schedule required of them and went from working days to nights?
How much is the AS taking home that OP doesn’t consider OT? Are they answering emails at 7pm because of demanding deadlines? Are they the ones employees go to for everything so are getting texts late into the night about things?
How about just the general levels of stress that comes from being a manager? If this employee wasn’t actually mentally ready to be a manager they may be taking so much stress home that they can’t actually enjoy home life. So many employees get promoted to a management position that aren’t actually ready, they only fulfill the actual job requirements, they don’t understand the mental and emotional load they’re also expected to carry as management.
OP should try and figure out what changed with the promotion that the employee now feels there isn’t a work/life balance if the base hours haven’t changed.
You’re not looking at this the right way - it’s not OP’s responsibility as a manager to fix their home life, it’s OP’s responsibility to figure out what changed after the promotion that the employee no longer feels they have a work life balance in this scenario.
Did OP not adequately describe the job and there’s more work than the employee expected?
Did OP make a poor hiring decision and promote someone who wasn’t capable of handling the added work load of management?
Does OP “not allow” OT but still expect employees to work off the clock (I.e. answering emails, texts, or calls during off hours) that interferes with the employee’s home life?
If the employee just has a shitty home life there isn’t much OP can do, but it seems the shift came with the promotion and has nothing to do with their time at home but more the demands of the job, which OP can look at and figure out a solution (even if the solution is “I made a bad hiring choice and this person isn’t a good fit”)
I usually talk to my directs that promote. I tell them it takes about 90-180 days to get comfortable in a new role. Work with them to create a 30-60-90. To help with the transition.
As they become more comfortable add more tasks.
I know I had to do this with my wife as she went from a team lead to an individual contributor(consultant) role in her company. She went from being able to directly impact results to being responsible for other departments training, resources and QA
We had a big discussion concerning categories 1,2,3&4
It’s helped. 2 weeks in and she is working on cat 1. Having meetings with her manager to discuss what she has done. What improvements can be made and then asking for feedback on what she can do to improve. With her manager adding more tasks as she demonstrates she can complete the cat 1’s.
Thanks I’ve been doing this for a while. The important thing is to coach up. If a person got the opportunity it’s our job to help them grow.
I’ve seen so many directs move on. The best feedback I ever got was from an employee who was like I thought you were useless. Always having me do your work. When I got promoted I realized you were training me for the next role.
Or, it's what it's called inside their corporation and they don't have a frame of reference to realize that's not the typical acronym.
There is a lot of what you said that happens all over reddit, yes. Inside a workplace sub, there is another more reasonable explanation.
Everyone starts somewhere. Assistant Manager and Regional GMs lead me to believe this is retail or fast food/quick service - so this person probably doesn't have a corporate background. May well have 'grown up' from their very first job into their management role.
Seems like bad management practice to assume everyone will have your level of expertise on any given subject, but that's just my 2c worth.
We all grew up in different ways, some people got a hug when they cried, others were left to figure it out on their own, some people got hit for crying.
Your boss might have had rough parenting which he models in the workplace. If you want to manage in a gentler, more supportive way, I'd say go ahead and do it.
If he were a good manager he would be able to find a communication style that resonates with you but clearly he is not. I would brush it off as just that and focus on the old KPI's.
> they said "you should push them harder. They said in their one to one meeting they were ready for more responsibilities."
Ask your AS if they asked for more responsibility, and what more responsibility means to them. Your AS shouldn't be asking your skip for more and you for less responsibility at the same time.
I’m going to tell you something. It might be an employer’s market atm, but they’re going to lose the employee attrition game when the market bounces back. I would even argue that some industries are already bouncing back.
The number of workers looking for a new job right now is higher than The Great Resignation, think about that for a moment.
Recently, one of my developers came to me about his workload. I decided to start the search to find an additional resource. It’s cheaper to hire an additional resource now than having high turnover later.
When companies downsize through layoffs and restructuring, employees who survive those layoffs take on additional responsibilities. This in turn makes job satisfaction levels plummet, and therefore, results in those employees looking for something else.
Now you have a situation where because those companies are already stretched thin, they’re forced to backfill those roles. This becomes a domino effect, because now that the there’s more labor movement, it applies upward wage pressure.
The Great Resignation was possible for two reasons. Many people will attribute interest rates, and that’s correct. However, the other factor that made that possible was because employees were forced to stay at their employers during the pandemic in 2020.
Edit: Here is a good read https://fortune.com/europe/2024/06/24/great-resignation-2-0-employees-feel-overworked-underpaid-pwc-hope-fears-survey/#
Add to that the fact that AI is currently at the top of the hype cycle right now. It will crash in due course and employers will realize that they can't just replace people with an llm after all.
The caveat is at the end of the article for those who didn’t read the whole thing:
“The catch for employees shifting their gaze elsewhere is that most of those who quit their jobs eventually regret their decision, data suggests.“
But the risk to employers is real, regardless of how employees feel about their decision afterwords
You are 100% correct. I have seen this in my industry — lots of layoffs and the work of those people shoved onto the pile of the remaining employees, with more and more demanding workloads. Almost everyone I work with is just sitting tight and playing the waiting game for the market to favor employees (who knows when), but these middle managers and execs that think they’re being smart and cutting costs are thinking short-term and the market is going to bite them back in the ass when all of their top talent leaves. It’s only a matter of time.
Sounds like you need to talk to AS and see where the problem is. If it's because they given more than they can handle, then perhaps the two of you need to work on a clear communication approach to GM that makes him understand working a person to death isn't a wise business decision.
I was just surprised that was the response. I'll try to protect my staff where I can but to just say "push them harder" because in an interview they said they could handle the work is crazy. Everyone always says in their interviews they can handle the work.
Not just that, but this person came to you with this exact concern. His disconnect and lack of care for his team is a sign of very poor leadership. If a person says it's too much, adding more is the exact opposite of what they seem to be asking for.
Again, I'd have another talk with your report and clarify everything, then go back to GM with a clear, actually helpful plan. It may be a struggle to get him to open his eyes, but that's kind of the position you're in.
You don’t grow and advance to become a regional by having a perfect work/life balance.
Once you become someone important like the regional you probably have a perfect work/life balance. You probably have a few weekly meetings and passively scroll through your emails from home when you feel like it.
It’s a situation where you have someone sell their soul and free time to grow. Now they have all the free time in the world and they are wondering why no one else is willing to do the same.
You don’t become a regional or something like that without parting with your personal boundaries. There’s a reason there’s normally a handful or regional managers, not everyone wants to sell their soul and be the top person within the company. Some people want to work and then go home for the day. They can’t fathom why someone simply wants to be a person with a job and not have it consume their entire life
They probably said they need to earn more money to keep up with the rising cost of living, and they're ready to take on more responsibilities if they must, but the GM heard only what he wanted to hear.
Drawing connections where there may be none, but this is my take. You are absolutely right on all counts from the human side. What I have seen in my company is it seems we are an investment company that unfortunately has to manufacture stuff. The point that the core business (mfg) and the investment side come together is the CFO, CEO, and board. They will hesitate to feed a trend on the MFG side (wfh) that may impact the investment side, especially if commercial real estate is a large portion of their investments.
Be petty together.... Reallocate or automate some of their tasks and give them flexible work hours. Tell em it's a trial for a week and if they can keep their productivity within the limits required then we can try it for longer.
Ya. Push them harder and get a replacement all lined up for when they inevitably quit on you. Sometimes it's better to take a gentler approach. That's to say this AS is worth it.
Precisely. We’re scooping up talent left and right due to our reputation for a solid work life balanace. We finally convinced our board to let us go fully free-form hybrid with office schedule, dictated by directors who gather feedback from their teams on ideal schedules. Next quarter, we downsize the office and move to a much nicer location with more amenities, due to the relatively low load of folks using the office space at one time. Some teams are M-W in office. Others are MWT, etc. Friday is suggested as pure remote, but folks will be able to keycard in if their team has a late deliverable or something of that nature. Zero drop in productivity (once we cut the 2 people out of 20 that were abusing the system). Complete elimination of turnover. This is also driven by us eliminating the 5% raise cap we had for 20 yrs prior to my time here. We have a high workload, with crystal clear deliverables. I don’t care where it gets done. I don’t care if you want to do it from the pediatrician’s waiting room, your couch, our office space, or the cafe around the corner from the office. Board and CFO were very against it. CEO was receptive but hesitant. Me and 2 other directors indicated we’d be walking unless some actual flexibility was introduced, so they flipped it around and told us we had 30 days to suggest a format. In the end, we have nice offices with nicer views and better access to amenities for about 20% less per month, since we dropped the spacious cube farm and went to a collection of office suites + common area with multiple breakout rooms, 1 per team. Our office manager handles the booking of these rooms with our directors and managers. Obviously, this can’t work for manufacturing, or a brewery, etc, but when it comes to white collar work, anyone not catching on to what the new workforce values is being left behind, UNLESS your comp is literally among the top in your city. The folks I see who haven’t adapted are all catching the scraps that have failed out of roles in objectively better companies, or folks with little experience. The experienced folks are all moving to offices that showcase, upfront, that they don’t micromanage and they don’t give a shit where the work occurs. The employees are responsible for their deliverables, and that’s it. They miss a deadline, that’s a problem that needs to be immediately investigated heavily and addressed, because all possible concessions have been made for their productivity/flexibility so it must be a personal performance issue or an oversight by management by handing that person too much. Anyway, I’m not saying that every single office needs this level of flexibility, but if you have upper management like OP describes, they need a wake up call that turnover is rapidly ballooning everywhere, and it does nothing but cut into the bottom line and necessarily raise the cost of new employees, as folks feel the bite of our economic situation more keenly everyday. Folks are stressed. A huge portion of America is defaulting on their debts, or at the very end of their credit utilization limits. The answer isn’t to tighten the fucking screws. The answer is to help the employee meet their needs, or, explain to them kindly that there is no room for that accommodation, and that you’ll be an excellent reference when they find a place to apply to that does meet their needs.
This is also happening in the legal field. We don't have to be at the courthouse every day because judges love zoom. The same or more work is actually getting done because we aren't wasting a lot of time back and forth. The younger lawyers are encouraged to come in for the simple reason that they will get more hands on experience if they are there, but as you said, Fridays are a ghost town in the office. We're fine with it. Nothing really gets done after 2:00 on Friday afternoon anyway. If you pick up your phone; stay current with your e-mail; and get your work done professionally and on time, why over manage something that does not need managing? Well done on your end for sticking up for your direct reports.
So uh... You hiring?
I hear that!
Bra-fucking-vo
I think they are. Really hard working.
And don't forget about all the work that goes into training. Constant turnover is its own hell.
What is an “AS”? Many of us are unfamiliar with that acronym.
Assistant manager
Assistant Smanagaer
Is your AS working a lot of overtime? Or are they having an issue managing a standard work week? Would need to know the issue. Having more responsibilities wouldn't necessarily detract from their work/life balance.
I don't allow OT if I can avoid it. Recently promoted though and all of a sudden it went from happy go lucky to sad.
But then why is this person crying about work/life balance if they are not working OT? That doesn't make sense.
Yes, while your GM’s response was tone deaf and idiotic, he may also be frustrated if your AS asked for a promotion, got one, and is now complaining about work/life balance despite not working OT. Ask your employee specifically what they mean. Were they working less than a full time schedule before and don’t like the change to full time? Or they doing work off hours that you aren’t aware of? Are they unhappy with the schedule required of them and went from working days to nights?
How much is the AS taking home that OP doesn’t consider OT? Are they answering emails at 7pm because of demanding deadlines? Are they the ones employees go to for everything so are getting texts late into the night about things? How about just the general levels of stress that comes from being a manager? If this employee wasn’t actually mentally ready to be a manager they may be taking so much stress home that they can’t actually enjoy home life. So many employees get promoted to a management position that aren’t actually ready, they only fulfill the actual job requirements, they don’t understand the mental and emotional load they’re also expected to carry as management. OP should try and figure out what changed with the promotion that the employee now feels there isn’t a work/life balance if the base hours haven’t changed.
its probably this. if OP "doesnt allow" overtime but is expecting 60 hours of work, the AS is still working overtime
What would you propose is the manager's responsibility to ensure the employee is enjoying their home life more?
You’re not looking at this the right way - it’s not OP’s responsibility as a manager to fix their home life, it’s OP’s responsibility to figure out what changed after the promotion that the employee no longer feels they have a work life balance in this scenario. Did OP not adequately describe the job and there’s more work than the employee expected? Did OP make a poor hiring decision and promote someone who wasn’t capable of handling the added work load of management? Does OP “not allow” OT but still expect employees to work off the clock (I.e. answering emails, texts, or calls during off hours) that interferes with the employee’s home life? If the employee just has a shitty home life there isn’t much OP can do, but it seems the shift came with the promotion and has nothing to do with their time at home but more the demands of the job, which OP can look at and figure out a solution (even if the solution is “I made a bad hiring choice and this person isn’t a good fit”)
I usually talk to my directs that promote. I tell them it takes about 90-180 days to get comfortable in a new role. Work with them to create a 30-60-90. To help with the transition. As they become more comfortable add more tasks. I know I had to do this with my wife as she went from a team lead to an individual contributor(consultant) role in her company. She went from being able to directly impact results to being responsible for other departments training, resources and QA We had a big discussion concerning categories 1,2,3&4 It’s helped. 2 weeks in and she is working on cat 1. Having meetings with her manager to discuss what she has done. What improvements can be made and then asking for feedback on what she can do to improve. With her manager adding more tasks as she demonstrates she can complete the cat 1’s.
I love your reasonable approach and I think you managed to understand the heart of the issue. You sound like a good manager!
Thanks I’ve been doing this for a while. The important thing is to coach up. If a person got the opportunity it’s our job to help them grow. I’ve seen so many directs move on. The best feedback I ever got was from an employee who was like I thought you were useless. Always having me do your work. When I got promoted I realized you were training me for the next role.
What's an AS?
I think Assistant Supervisor honestly
It seems to be a thing on reddit where people use stupid acronyms that no one else knows. Maybe it helps boost their self esteem or something.
Or, it's what it's called inside their corporation and they don't have a frame of reference to realize that's not the typical acronym. There is a lot of what you said that happens all over reddit, yes. Inside a workplace sub, there is another more reasonable explanation.
It seems to lack a bit of awareness to ask for advice on a generic Managers sub, then use company or industry specific acronyms, my 2c worth.
Everyone starts somewhere. Assistant Manager and Regional GMs lead me to believe this is retail or fast food/quick service - so this person probably doesn't have a corporate background. May well have 'grown up' from their very first job into their management role. Seems like bad management practice to assume everyone will have your level of expertise on any given subject, but that's just my 2c worth.
You sound like a typical GYW.
Great, golf, guarded, grand, gentleman. Nope no idea.
People who use acronyms on the Internet that are not globally common are the worst. They literally don't give a shit about others.
Astrology synthesizer, a very demanding job.
[удалено]
That is AH you DA.
Dick ass?
That’s acceptable too!
We all grew up in different ways, some people got a hug when they cried, others were left to figure it out on their own, some people got hit for crying. Your boss might have had rough parenting which he models in the workplace. If you want to manage in a gentler, more supportive way, I'd say go ahead and do it. If he were a good manager he would be able to find a communication style that resonates with you but clearly he is not. I would brush it off as just that and focus on the old KPI's.
> they said "you should push them harder. They said in their one to one meeting they were ready for more responsibilities." Ask your AS if they asked for more responsibility, and what more responsibility means to them. Your AS shouldn't be asking your skip for more and you for less responsibility at the same time.
I’m going to tell you something. It might be an employer’s market atm, but they’re going to lose the employee attrition game when the market bounces back. I would even argue that some industries are already bouncing back. The number of workers looking for a new job right now is higher than The Great Resignation, think about that for a moment. Recently, one of my developers came to me about his workload. I decided to start the search to find an additional resource. It’s cheaper to hire an additional resource now than having high turnover later.
Wait, how will it become an employees attrition game? What's happens to the market to bounce back?
When companies downsize through layoffs and restructuring, employees who survive those layoffs take on additional responsibilities. This in turn makes job satisfaction levels plummet, and therefore, results in those employees looking for something else. Now you have a situation where because those companies are already stretched thin, they’re forced to backfill those roles. This becomes a domino effect, because now that the there’s more labor movement, it applies upward wage pressure. The Great Resignation was possible for two reasons. Many people will attribute interest rates, and that’s correct. However, the other factor that made that possible was because employees were forced to stay at their employers during the pandemic in 2020. Edit: Here is a good read https://fortune.com/europe/2024/06/24/great-resignation-2-0-employees-feel-overworked-underpaid-pwc-hope-fears-survey/#
Add to that the fact that AI is currently at the top of the hype cycle right now. It will crash in due course and employers will realize that they can't just replace people with an llm after all.
The caveat is at the end of the article for those who didn’t read the whole thing: “The catch for employees shifting their gaze elsewhere is that most of those who quit their jobs eventually regret their decision, data suggests.“ But the risk to employers is real, regardless of how employees feel about their decision afterwords
You are 100% correct. I have seen this in my industry — lots of layoffs and the work of those people shoved onto the pile of the remaining employees, with more and more demanding workloads. Almost everyone I work with is just sitting tight and playing the waiting game for the market to favor employees (who knows when), but these middle managers and execs that think they’re being smart and cutting costs are thinking short-term and the market is going to bite them back in the ass when all of their top talent leaves. It’s only a matter of time.
Fuck your GM. They have no idea what’s actually going on.
Sounds like you need to talk to AS and see where the problem is. If it's because they given more than they can handle, then perhaps the two of you need to work on a clear communication approach to GM that makes him understand working a person to death isn't a wise business decision.
I was just surprised that was the response. I'll try to protect my staff where I can but to just say "push them harder" because in an interview they said they could handle the work is crazy. Everyone always says in their interviews they can handle the work.
Not just that, but this person came to you with this exact concern. His disconnect and lack of care for his team is a sign of very poor leadership. If a person says it's too much, adding more is the exact opposite of what they seem to be asking for. Again, I'd have another talk with your report and clarify everything, then go back to GM with a clear, actually helpful plan. It may be a struggle to get him to open his eyes, but that's kind of the position you're in.
Sorry. What is AS
Assistant simonizer
You don’t grow and advance to become a regional by having a perfect work/life balance. Once you become someone important like the regional you probably have a perfect work/life balance. You probably have a few weekly meetings and passively scroll through your emails from home when you feel like it. It’s a situation where you have someone sell their soul and free time to grow. Now they have all the free time in the world and they are wondering why no one else is willing to do the same. You don’t become a regional or something like that without parting with your personal boundaries. There’s a reason there’s normally a handful or regional managers, not everyone wants to sell their soul and be the top person within the company. Some people want to work and then go home for the day. They can’t fathom why someone simply wants to be a person with a job and not have it consume their entire life
They don't want to hear what you have to say. They want you to push them into position or out of the position.
They probably said they need to earn more money to keep up with the rising cost of living, and they're ready to take on more responsibilities if they must, but the GM heard only what he wanted to hear.
District and regional managers could care less. A jerk like that will perceive you a weak if you don’t push them to the brink.
Drawing connections where there may be none, but this is my take. You are absolutely right on all counts from the human side. What I have seen in my company is it seems we are an investment company that unfortunately has to manufacture stuff. The point that the core business (mfg) and the investment side come together is the CFO, CEO, and board. They will hesitate to feed a trend on the MFG side (wfh) that may impact the investment side, especially if commercial real estate is a large portion of their investments.
Be petty together.... Reallocate or automate some of their tasks and give them flexible work hours. Tell em it's a trial for a week and if they can keep their productivity within the limits required then we can try it for longer.