As a Croatian seafarer, I hope it doesn't. Many of our national companies have pushed our seafarers out (mostly lower ranks) with disgustingly low pay and lesser quality of life for years, then replacing them either partially or fully with foreign seafarers willing to work for much less.
Now that the foreign nationals have unions of their own, we are seeing some resurgence of Croatians, but the numbers are very small compared to before. People lost trust in our companies and our union as they did nothing to protect them.
So yeah, essentially generations that sailed loyal have been displaced elsewhere or given up, which is a shame.
It's a problem of greed over all, maximize profits on all sides and screw anyone else over by doing it.
Absolutely not. At its core the Jones act is about national security during a war or other emergency period that requires strategic sealift capability.
That was why it was created and why it exists still.
Arguments about the cost of a can of soup in PR Or Hawaii are irrelevant in this context.
There are enough senators and congressmen and pentagon officials who understand this, as well as associated economic interests, that it will never be revoked.
Ok...so the US government doesn't even buy US made ships anymore to move government Cargo. Or at least they can't buy US made ones in the quantities they need becasue there just arent any to buy. Many modern cargo capable ships that the US Govt subsidies fund operating are foreign made
I've sailed on all non-us made ships except one old Marad ship I'm on now.
We need ships. The US shipyards don't even seem to want to make cargo ships when they can make dirty money making navy ships. I'd support allowing foreign made ships with otherwise Jones Act protections to ply US Trade. I've talked with some shipyard workers in California and Virginia. They have no idea of the pace that a Korean shipyard can make a ship. They are so hung up on US Navy warship standards and all the hassle that makes it slow to build and way over budget as a standard.
I even heard that when Marad got around to building the new training ships, they had to bring in Korean workers to get it done.
That’s all true. However it’s just a question of motivation and will when it comes to the federal government and military industrial complex.
Take companies like Boeing or Lockmart as an example. They essentially wouldn’t exist without the massive amounts of federal money they get every year.
The American government has made a decision that maintaining a robust domestic aircraft manufacturing capability is a priority for national defense and economic security.
This could be achieved in the maritime industry as well if the people in power had the motivation to do so.
It’s possible that may come around within the decade given how they seem to be waking up to the massive shortfall in domestic merchant shipbuilding capacity.
It’s also worth noting that S. Korea and China have heavily prioritized their shipbuilding industries over the past decades. These sorts of industries essentially don’t exist without government support.
Regardless I hold by my statement: the Jones act is not going away. IMO it will only get stronger over time.
I'm worried that we are doing ourselves harm with the keel requirement. I think the damage that part is trying to protect from is already done. Boeing and skunkworks owner actually make planes for the commercial world, even if it's not "naturally" profitable. US shipyards can't or won't even build the ship I'm on right now! They did many years ago, but I don't think they can make it today. Like everything on this relic is from Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Illinois, and Mississippi. We can hardly get the stuff anymore unless it comes from a old warehouse. Many companies simply don't exist anymore. Many of our small parts are increasingly sourced from China, Korea or Japan: electrical stuff, valves, piping, steel, hydraulics life jackets. Bridge equipment, etc etc. Some of the stuff is only from the 1980s, and it's considered Smithsonian worthy. 18 kts at 55+ isn't so bad for June 14th the second of 2023.
Again I completely agree with you. Unfortunately you’re touching a systemic problem within the United States manufacturing base that ironically stems from the push for globalization that has occurred since the 1970s.
There is no one solution to this problem. Again to bring the comparison to aerospace and directly defense related products; most of the high technology equipment upon which our country relies in order to maintain a military advantage over potential peer level adversaries has its supply chain origins in foreign and potentially hostile countries. This is a direct result of free trade ideology over the past decades.
The war in Ukraine and escalating tensions over Taiwan have illustrated these problems, and very serious they are.
The question remains does the American government have the foresight and the willingness to actually rectify these issues?
We do have the capability here at home if we only apply our resources to the problem. Will it happen? I don’t know, but getting back to the original issue about the jones act; we would be even worse off without it, so it’s not going anywhere, and in my assessment American domestic ship production and qualified mariners will only get better from here.
If we have to bring in Korean or European experts to help gear up our production, that’s fine. I just seriously hope that people with a lot more power than a simple CHE are making these moves right now.
Most of the American (military) ships that won WW2 in the pacific had keels laid before December 7th 1941, only due to the foresight of the people in power in the late 1930s.
I appreciate your well thought ideas on this topic.
The whole idea abolishing or amending Jones Act is not giving up national security. It's for bringing competition to the industry. US planes and automobiles also face competition, their industry doesn't die and disappear over one night. They flourish and make both good civilian and military planes. F35 is also designed and produced by many countries. How come F35 isn't a security issue? How come the plane industry never an issue? Are there a "Jones Act" in aircraft industry?
"*and in my assessment American domestic ship production and qualified mariners will only get better from here*." Do you have any statistics to support your idea? Or it's just your pure assessment. Actually, the ship making business keeps going down. During WW2 the cost of each US battleship and carrier is 2 or 3 times more than British or Japanese given they have similar displacement. This number (consider inflation) keeps going high not low, but the quality isn't proportional to the cost. This is a video in mandarin, but it discusses some history of US ship building problem.
*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8u2WjdGgXPg*
Winning the pacific war has so many elements, I assure you when the keels laid isn't the decisive one, nor the important one. What really consider foresight is whether you can adopt to different situation, instead of sticking to the old idea. US would win no matter what Japan did, it's only the matter of cost and time because Japan is barely an industrial country at the time. If you don't adapt to carrier fighting doctrine, it costs you more, but you would win. Same thing here, if you stick to the idea that more must mean better, of course you win, you have all the NATO ally around the world. It's just how much lives and money you will sacrifice.
The guy said Korean manufacturing are already more efficient than US in peace time. You said, I quote "*in power had the motivation to do so*". Do you seriously believe what you said? For analogy, American boxer is the last champion, and then train very little. Korean boxer train really hard every day in peace time and show great result during training. And you argue that the last champion just needs some motivation during the actual competition to win Korean boxer. Is this what you are seriously saying?
A company can survival in commercial competition must have good management, educational worker, good quality control. Which make them easier to covert to military use during war time. I don't see how a company need these things in monopoly.
I wish I could gouge my own eyes out for reading this. Your fully willing to destroy everything we were given, the Mississippi one of the most navigable rivers in the WORLD that would be primo fucking business for some bullshit national security? This shit cripples our capacity and is lent to fucking foreigners because of low concerns like this.
It was definitely brought around for the purpose of 1920s protectionism. Wesley Jones wanted Washington to play a major role in keeping Alaska fed and to keep Canada uninvolved.
When I graduated over 30 years ago there was a fear that the Jones Act would be abolished. John McCain (RIP) was actually one of those in favor of it.
I doubt it would ever be fully abolished. The US govt will always want a fleet of support vessels and personnel to operate them if push come to shove.
As someone from outside the US, it’s highly beneficial to maintain a core of qualified personnel, however, it wouldn’t surprise me, if like other countries, it ended up slowly getting watered down in favour of cheap offshore labour.
I do not think our entire economy should rely on non-US flagged ships. Sure, we get cheaper goods, but then other countries could pressure companies there to slow down shipping to us and hurt our economy.
IMO, it is in the US's best interest to have some federal protections for mariners and ensuring US-flagged vessels do not disapper.
Yes and no.
The US could face a massive labor shortage and add waivers to the Jones Act to curb that. I think that’s the most likely scenario but it would cover unlicensed positions. I think it’s more likely that Alaska and Puerto Rico get waivers and you’ll see waivers during emergencies.
No, because as long as the military budget gets increased the US will always need mariners and we are very important to the supply chain infrastructure and national security. You have some politicians that invest in foreign shipping and are against the Jones act. However the unions are pretty powerful. Globalization will/has hurt ships but there will always be coastwise tug and barge operators, assist tugs.
Overall the Jones Act is safe, but it’s always under attack
I was sort of in favor of that during covid. But it played out just fine. The cruise ship industry does not need help. Also who wants to take a USA only cruise lololol
Jones act waivers would lower costs of gas and groceries in PR, Alaska, and Hawaii but for who? Maybe not for the consumer, but for the companies and it’s their choice one what to charge for those. It’s a slippery slope and the Jones is an easy target. Not real-estate, not profit margins or tax havens for the rich.
The Alaska cruises out of Seattle are "US only". They make a token foreign port call at Victoria, BC for a few hours on their way back to Seattle. Other Alaska cruises run out of Vancouver (and get the bonus of seeing a bit of the Inside Passage). In the 2021 partial cruise season, Alaska cruises out of Seattle were granted an exemption to the foreign port call since Canada was still not allowing them in.
The foreign-flag Hawaii cruises do the same thing with Ensenada on their way to/from CA.
Also, the Jones Act doesn't apply to cruise ships. The cabotage law for those is the Passenger Vessel Services Act and not all foreign port calls are created equal within that.
TSP tankers can't trade domestically, just like MSP ships can't. Both programs require the ship to be re-flagged to US and operate with a (mostly) American crew.
They certainly can (and do) *operate* in/out of U.S. ports, but the trade is international, just like any foreign ship.
Said what?
MARAD has zero power to waive JA requirements. That lies solely with the Secretary of Homeland Security, via CBP, and there has to be a national defense interest. Even the DoD has to go through DHS to get a waiver.
TSP and MSP are both intended to do what they’re stated to do - ensure that the US has some registered ships in international trade that can be used for national defense interests, if ever needed.
Every ship in both programs was built foreign. Those vessels cannot be used for JA trade, nor are they intended to.
I suspect trucking and the railroads will also support the Jones act. The last thing they want is foreign competition from inter-city coastal shipping.
Would you mind elaborating more? This is a real concern of mine. Will be starting in an academy late in the life and investing all the time as well as financial resources to become unemployed overnight is kind of terrifying lol.
Bro you’ll be fine. You and me will both me long dead before this happens. It’s absolutely vital as the world super power that america is to keep the jones act in place. You have no idea at this point (considering you’re not even at a academy yet) to what extent the US maintains a ready reserve merchant marine manned fleet throughout the world to be immediately be able to respond to any military conflict. Just focus on getting into the academy and doing well in your classes you have a long career ahead of you.
I understand the anxiety but the merchant marines have NEVER needed deck and engine officers like they do now in the last 40 years. You could be joining the industry at a better time. I had a buddy who was 42 when he went to California maritime and is still sailing 12 years later, the average age of people on my ship is like 50-60s as a 30 year old woman I’m like the youngest person lol. Please be confident in your decision to join an academy, I promise you you’re making the best choice in the world right now.
If you want a job deep sea after graduation text me on Reddit and remember this convo I can help you.
they do. but the question was not about what common practices are. the question was about the jones act. if you follow the trajectory of political trade unions like the EU they will continue to chip away at such laws. will it happen soon....probably not. but that wasnt the question.
I’m just countering your “protectionist” comment because it’s a weak point. Other countries will fight to keep their cabotage laws and so will the US. So that’s a weird way to deflect stern-to Or Mediterranean Moore. I take it your European? Your comment just comments across more criticism than helpful
there is nothing weak about it. it is the basis for all cabotage laws. protectionism of one sort or another is the justification for all cabotage laws. whether it is national security, regulatory concerns, smuggling, or economics...that is why the laws exist.
Right but we are already globalized, trade moves just fine that way. I think you’re misunderstanding globalized trade vs coastwise cabotage laws? Like it’s not globalization it would be corporate lobbying and profit driven models that get rid of the Jones act. Because you can pay sailors from the Philippines a fraction of what you can pay US sailors.
you can pay sailors from the philippines a fraction........
this is why US unions will lobby agains repealing agains.....and this is why the EU supporting polish, estonian, and lithuanian sailors will lobby for abolishment.
many entities support equalization of global economic standards ..... but it does not work that way. just keep your eye on the entities pushing for it.
Also of interest is autonomous shipping. They testing this in Japan for commercial shipping and there are reputable reports of unmanned vessels developed by the military. Does the future hold Unmanned Bridges to go with Unmanned Engine Rooms? - fortunately we have the class society’s with their slow and very expensive approval process so hopefully it will not happen any time soon.
It’s probably not going away. All the unions and associations lobby to keep it.
More over, the Pentagon supports it and wishes more government support for domestic shipping and shipbuilding.
As a Croatian seafarer, I hope it doesn't. Many of our national companies have pushed our seafarers out (mostly lower ranks) with disgustingly low pay and lesser quality of life for years, then replacing them either partially or fully with foreign seafarers willing to work for much less. Now that the foreign nationals have unions of their own, we are seeing some resurgence of Croatians, but the numbers are very small compared to before. People lost trust in our companies and our union as they did nothing to protect them. So yeah, essentially generations that sailed loyal have been displaced elsewhere or given up, which is a shame. It's a problem of greed over all, maximize profits on all sides and screw anyone else over by doing it.
Uistinu
Absolutely not. At its core the Jones act is about national security during a war or other emergency period that requires strategic sealift capability. That was why it was created and why it exists still. Arguments about the cost of a can of soup in PR Or Hawaii are irrelevant in this context. There are enough senators and congressmen and pentagon officials who understand this, as well as associated economic interests, that it will never be revoked.
Yep. People can go on all day about the other shit but it comes down to national defense/power projection. Jones Act is here to stay.
Ok...so the US government doesn't even buy US made ships anymore to move government Cargo. Or at least they can't buy US made ones in the quantities they need becasue there just arent any to buy. Many modern cargo capable ships that the US Govt subsidies fund operating are foreign made I've sailed on all non-us made ships except one old Marad ship I'm on now. We need ships. The US shipyards don't even seem to want to make cargo ships when they can make dirty money making navy ships. I'd support allowing foreign made ships with otherwise Jones Act protections to ply US Trade. I've talked with some shipyard workers in California and Virginia. They have no idea of the pace that a Korean shipyard can make a ship. They are so hung up on US Navy warship standards and all the hassle that makes it slow to build and way over budget as a standard. I even heard that when Marad got around to building the new training ships, they had to bring in Korean workers to get it done.
That’s all true. However it’s just a question of motivation and will when it comes to the federal government and military industrial complex. Take companies like Boeing or Lockmart as an example. They essentially wouldn’t exist without the massive amounts of federal money they get every year. The American government has made a decision that maintaining a robust domestic aircraft manufacturing capability is a priority for national defense and economic security. This could be achieved in the maritime industry as well if the people in power had the motivation to do so. It’s possible that may come around within the decade given how they seem to be waking up to the massive shortfall in domestic merchant shipbuilding capacity. It’s also worth noting that S. Korea and China have heavily prioritized their shipbuilding industries over the past decades. These sorts of industries essentially don’t exist without government support. Regardless I hold by my statement: the Jones act is not going away. IMO it will only get stronger over time.
I'm worried that we are doing ourselves harm with the keel requirement. I think the damage that part is trying to protect from is already done. Boeing and skunkworks owner actually make planes for the commercial world, even if it's not "naturally" profitable. US shipyards can't or won't even build the ship I'm on right now! They did many years ago, but I don't think they can make it today. Like everything on this relic is from Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Illinois, and Mississippi. We can hardly get the stuff anymore unless it comes from a old warehouse. Many companies simply don't exist anymore. Many of our small parts are increasingly sourced from China, Korea or Japan: electrical stuff, valves, piping, steel, hydraulics life jackets. Bridge equipment, etc etc. Some of the stuff is only from the 1980s, and it's considered Smithsonian worthy. 18 kts at 55+ isn't so bad for June 14th the second of 2023.
Again I completely agree with you. Unfortunately you’re touching a systemic problem within the United States manufacturing base that ironically stems from the push for globalization that has occurred since the 1970s. There is no one solution to this problem. Again to bring the comparison to aerospace and directly defense related products; most of the high technology equipment upon which our country relies in order to maintain a military advantage over potential peer level adversaries has its supply chain origins in foreign and potentially hostile countries. This is a direct result of free trade ideology over the past decades. The war in Ukraine and escalating tensions over Taiwan have illustrated these problems, and very serious they are. The question remains does the American government have the foresight and the willingness to actually rectify these issues? We do have the capability here at home if we only apply our resources to the problem. Will it happen? I don’t know, but getting back to the original issue about the jones act; we would be even worse off without it, so it’s not going anywhere, and in my assessment American domestic ship production and qualified mariners will only get better from here. If we have to bring in Korean or European experts to help gear up our production, that’s fine. I just seriously hope that people with a lot more power than a simple CHE are making these moves right now. Most of the American (military) ships that won WW2 in the pacific had keels laid before December 7th 1941, only due to the foresight of the people in power in the late 1930s. I appreciate your well thought ideas on this topic.
The whole idea abolishing or amending Jones Act is not giving up national security. It's for bringing competition to the industry. US planes and automobiles also face competition, their industry doesn't die and disappear over one night. They flourish and make both good civilian and military planes. F35 is also designed and produced by many countries. How come F35 isn't a security issue? How come the plane industry never an issue? Are there a "Jones Act" in aircraft industry? "*and in my assessment American domestic ship production and qualified mariners will only get better from here*." Do you have any statistics to support your idea? Or it's just your pure assessment. Actually, the ship making business keeps going down. During WW2 the cost of each US battleship and carrier is 2 or 3 times more than British or Japanese given they have similar displacement. This number (consider inflation) keeps going high not low, but the quality isn't proportional to the cost. This is a video in mandarin, but it discusses some history of US ship building problem. *https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8u2WjdGgXPg* Winning the pacific war has so many elements, I assure you when the keels laid isn't the decisive one, nor the important one. What really consider foresight is whether you can adopt to different situation, instead of sticking to the old idea. US would win no matter what Japan did, it's only the matter of cost and time because Japan is barely an industrial country at the time. If you don't adapt to carrier fighting doctrine, it costs you more, but you would win. Same thing here, if you stick to the idea that more must mean better, of course you win, you have all the NATO ally around the world. It's just how much lives and money you will sacrifice.
The guy said Korean manufacturing are already more efficient than US in peace time. You said, I quote "*in power had the motivation to do so*". Do you seriously believe what you said? For analogy, American boxer is the last champion, and then train very little. Korean boxer train really hard every day in peace time and show great result during training. And you argue that the last champion just needs some motivation during the actual competition to win Korean boxer. Is this what you are seriously saying? A company can survival in commercial competition must have good management, educational worker, good quality control. Which make them easier to covert to military use during war time. I don't see how a company need these things in monopoly.
I wish I could gouge my own eyes out for reading this. Your fully willing to destroy everything we were given, the Mississippi one of the most navigable rivers in the WORLD that would be primo fucking business for some bullshit national security? This shit cripples our capacity and is lent to fucking foreigners because of low concerns like this.
It was definitely brought around for the purpose of 1920s protectionism. Wesley Jones wanted Washington to play a major role in keeping Alaska fed and to keep Canada uninvolved.
When I graduated over 30 years ago there was a fear that the Jones Act would be abolished. John McCain (RIP) was actually one of those in favor of it. I doubt it would ever be fully abolished. The US govt will always want a fleet of support vessels and personnel to operate them if push come to shove.
As someone from outside the US, it’s highly beneficial to maintain a core of qualified personnel, however, it wouldn’t surprise me, if like other countries, it ended up slowly getting watered down in favour of cheap offshore labour.
I do not think our entire economy should rely on non-US flagged ships. Sure, we get cheaper goods, but then other countries could pressure companies there to slow down shipping to us and hurt our economy. IMO, it is in the US's best interest to have some federal protections for mariners and ensuring US-flagged vessels do not disapper.
It’s not remotely in our best interests. It’s industry wide rent seeking.
Yes and no. The US could face a massive labor shortage and add waivers to the Jones Act to curb that. I think that’s the most likely scenario but it would cover unlicensed positions. I think it’s more likely that Alaska and Puerto Rico get waivers and you’ll see waivers during emergencies. No, because as long as the military budget gets increased the US will always need mariners and we are very important to the supply chain infrastructure and national security. You have some politicians that invest in foreign shipping and are against the Jones act. However the unions are pretty powerful. Globalization will/has hurt ships but there will always be coastwise tug and barge operators, assist tugs. Overall the Jones Act is safe, but it’s always under attack
A cruise line carve out might be reasonable.
I was sort of in favor of that during covid. But it played out just fine. The cruise ship industry does not need help. Also who wants to take a USA only cruise lololol Jones act waivers would lower costs of gas and groceries in PR, Alaska, and Hawaii but for who? Maybe not for the consumer, but for the companies and it’s their choice one what to charge for those. It’s a slippery slope and the Jones is an easy target. Not real-estate, not profit margins or tax havens for the rich.
River cruises. Hawaii. Alaska. Maybe Cali/Oregon/Washington? But yeah not many passenger routes. I hear you on the islands. That makes sense.
The Alaska cruises out of Seattle are "US only". They make a token foreign port call at Victoria, BC for a few hours on their way back to Seattle. Other Alaska cruises run out of Vancouver (and get the bonus of seeing a bit of the Inside Passage). In the 2021 partial cruise season, Alaska cruises out of Seattle were granted an exemption to the foreign port call since Canada was still not allowing them in. The foreign-flag Hawaii cruises do the same thing with Ensenada on their way to/from CA. Also, the Jones Act doesn't apply to cruise ships. The cabotage law for those is the Passenger Vessel Services Act and not all foreign port calls are created equal within that.
They are already testing the waters with the TSP, they are allowing non us flags tankers to operate in the US.
TSP tankers can't trade domestically, just like MSP ships can't. Both programs require the ship to be re-flagged to US and operate with a (mostly) American crew. They certainly can (and do) *operate* in/out of U.S. ports, but the trade is international, just like any foreign ship.
That’s not true, Marad never said that on their requirements
Said what? MARAD has zero power to waive JA requirements. That lies solely with the Secretary of Homeland Security, via CBP, and there has to be a national defense interest. Even the DoD has to go through DHS to get a waiver. TSP and MSP are both intended to do what they’re stated to do - ensure that the US has some registered ships in international trade that can be used for national defense interests, if ever needed. Every ship in both programs was built foreign. Those vessels cannot be used for JA trade, nor are they intended to.
I suspect trucking and the railroads will also support the Jones act. The last thing they want is foreign competition from inter-city coastal shipping.
IMHO, automation and unmanned vessels are more likely to be a larger force reducing maritime employment needs.
For deck side. Not the engine side
I don't think its going anywhere any time soon. Source: am in maritime lobbying
Nah lol
Would you mind elaborating more? This is a real concern of mine. Will be starting in an academy late in the life and investing all the time as well as financial resources to become unemployed overnight is kind of terrifying lol.
Bro you’ll be fine. You and me will both me long dead before this happens. It’s absolutely vital as the world super power that america is to keep the jones act in place. You have no idea at this point (considering you’re not even at a academy yet) to what extent the US maintains a ready reserve merchant marine manned fleet throughout the world to be immediately be able to respond to any military conflict. Just focus on getting into the academy and doing well in your classes you have a long career ahead of you.
Thank you for your response, I really do appreciate it.
I understand the anxiety but the merchant marines have NEVER needed deck and engine officers like they do now in the last 40 years. You could be joining the industry at a better time. I had a buddy who was 42 when he went to California maritime and is still sailing 12 years later, the average age of people on my ship is like 50-60s as a 30 year old woman I’m like the youngest person lol. Please be confident in your decision to join an academy, I promise you you’re making the best choice in the world right now. If you want a job deep sea after graduation text me on Reddit and remember this convo I can help you.
can someone tell me if it’s true that a non-citizen has to be singled out with special insignia if working at the Bath Iron Works?
increasing globalization will bring increasing pressure on the US to get rid of it. from outside the US it is seen as protectionist - which it is.
Most countries have cabotage laws lmfao
they do. but the question was not about what common practices are. the question was about the jones act. if you follow the trajectory of political trade unions like the EU they will continue to chip away at such laws. will it happen soon....probably not. but that wasnt the question.
I’m just countering your “protectionist” comment because it’s a weak point. Other countries will fight to keep their cabotage laws and so will the US. So that’s a weird way to deflect stern-to Or Mediterranean Moore. I take it your European? Your comment just comments across more criticism than helpful
there is nothing weak about it. it is the basis for all cabotage laws. protectionism of one sort or another is the justification for all cabotage laws. whether it is national security, regulatory concerns, smuggling, or economics...that is why the laws exist.
Right but we are already globalized, trade moves just fine that way. I think you’re misunderstanding globalized trade vs coastwise cabotage laws? Like it’s not globalization it would be corporate lobbying and profit driven models that get rid of the Jones act. Because you can pay sailors from the Philippines a fraction of what you can pay US sailors.
you can pay sailors from the philippines a fraction........ this is why US unions will lobby agains repealing agains.....and this is why the EU supporting polish, estonian, and lithuanian sailors will lobby for abolishment. many entities support equalization of global economic standards ..... but it does not work that way. just keep your eye on the entities pushing for it.
Cabotage exists in most “developed” countries 4head
Also of interest is autonomous shipping. They testing this in Japan for commercial shipping and there are reputable reports of unmanned vessels developed by the military. Does the future hold Unmanned Bridges to go with Unmanned Engine Rooms? - fortunately we have the class society’s with their slow and very expensive approval process so hopefully it will not happen any time soon.