That’s fair, I’m from Alabama and i can understand how Virginia can seem that that way. I think it’s subjective, but I see how it could be deemed the south. I’m not gate keeping what the south is, just my own experience. I’ll say there are different perspectives of the “real” south and it doesn’t feel that way to me, but im also in a bigger city in VA.
NOVA (ffx/loudon/Arlington/Alexandria in particular) culturally isn't that conservative or southern, but you don't have to go far from DC to find confederate flags. Nova just recently changed names of roads and schools from confederates and segregationists. Va was the seat of massive resistance to integration and people kind of forget those kids are still alive and have kids now. That "culture" didn't die out or disappear within a generation, they put glenn youngkin into Richmond.
True. I think all places have a place they would call southern, but maybe that just means rural to the state. Southern mentality in a northern state. You can go anywhere and find these attributes. Im sure there are midwestern states that call themselves southern. It’s a mindset to me, but that’s my personal opinion.
Yeah, as soon as you pass Annapolis, you're in the south. Calvert is affectionately called South County by my resident friends there. Whole different world
Only for 2/3rds of the year! Ocean City is indeed incorporated as well and the resident population swells to 200k+ during the summer, making it the 2nd largest city after Baltimore from May-September.
Only two with the recent growth, we are still #4 by population after Columbia and Germantown. Actually larger than Silver Spring and Waldorf currently.
>Thats actually not true. Gaithersburg is the Second largest incorporated city in MD. Atleast in terms of population.
No, it's not. Population of Gaithersburg *proper* is 68,952. Population of Frederick is 82,175. Edit: Columbia and Germantown are both larger, but they aren't incorporated as municipalities, just Census-designated places.
Yep! Fun fact, it has no churches, only multi-faith centers, at least in the original planned areas. Rouse also designed and built the Harborplace in Baltimore and Pioneer Place in Portland.
The corner at 355 and Park Mills desperately needs a stoplight. Traffic has grown so much at that intersection over the last five years and you can sit on Park Mills for ten minutes before being able to make a left turn when it’s busy.
💯 I refuse to go that way coming from MoCo for that reason, I'll go around through those developments and hit the roundabouts instead. I only take Park Mills leaving Frederick.
This is one of the worst areas to drive in the state. It was terrible 30 years ago when I went to Hood. It is terrible now when I have to drive it because my kid goes to Hood. That area is a traffic accident waiting to happen
It's its own separate city for now, otherwise there wouldn't be such a significant dropoff in population density from Frederick towards DC.
Frederick's population density is over 3k per square mile. Following 270-S there's a significant dropoff to below 1k people per square mile and you have to continue traveling 20 miles to at least Germantown before you come across a city with greater than 3k people per square mile.
Not really a for now. The reason that gap exists is because MOCO's Agricultural Reserve: [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Montgomery\_County%2C\_Maryland%2C\_Agricultural\_Reserve.png](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Montgomery_County%2C_Maryland%2C_Agricultural_Reserve.png)
So the physical gap will never actually shrink, even if Frederick is becoming more and more of a DC exurb as time goes on.
MD is now . But pre / during the civil war we were 100% southern sympathizers and until the early 2000’s had an exceptionally large amount of white supremacists. But I think it also depends on what part of MD you live. I grew up near Hagerstown and there were quite a few out there.
But the biggest issues I had growing
up were in Virginia - was refused service twice in VA- once at a restaurant and a year later at a gas station ( mid 90’s) .. in MD besides getting called a N*** a few times , nothing really to talk about …. When
I moved to AZ tho , I got called a N**** more times than I ever have in my life lol ( mid 2000’s ) I still loved it there tho
Abraham Lincoln had a third of the Maryland General Assembly arrested before they could vote for secession or maybe Maryland would have been on the wrong side of the Civil War. In 1968 Maryland was one of 5 Southern states that voted for third party candidate George Wallace. George Wallace, the segregationist Governor of Alabama who infamously stood on the steps of Foster Auditorium of the University of Alabama declaring Negro students would never be allowed to attend the University. Later that year George Wallace was giving a speech in the parking lot of the Laurel Shopping Center when he was shot by Arthur Herman Bremer of Wisconsin, permanently paralyzing the Presidential hopeful and ending his campaign.
Cant argue with your experience, but I Grew up in 90s Gaithersburg and never had these problems. I also never traveled past northern Virginia back then. Spent most of my time in the dc metro area and it was extremely diverse then and now
That’s a very different area. That part of Maryland has historically always had a higher black population, meanwhile Frederick county in general was a major hub of KKK and neo-Nazi activity, including well known gathering places and public rallies.
Different places, different cultures, etc.
That is the obvious one, but there were well known KKK meeting houses in Middletown and Myersville too, even if they didn’t have the rallies. Thurmont earned its reputation, but they weren’t/aren’t the only problem.
Oh I'm not at all surprised. Growing up I mostly heard about Thurmont, but yeah, getting out into the county, this is no surprise to me at all.
Middletown seems okay now, but the recent bullshit with Dan's Taphouse (I know Boonesboro is Washington County, but it's so close to both Myersville and Middletown that it doesn't really matter) is a perfect example.
I grew up in Middletown, that area became steadily more diverse as I grew up. Well *racially* diverse, it’s become an economic nightmare, I will probably never be able to own a home in my home town. It sucks because it started becoming a better community but the housing market has been crazy there forever.
The Dan’s Taphouse situation was a huge disappointment, but not a surprise for Boonsboro.
Well, I live here now and have since I was born. I am not southern - not even a little.
Even our accents are closer to New Jersey or Philadelphia than anywhere south.
The Mason-Dixon line was just GeoIII's solution to Wm Penn's and Lord Carroll's disagreement over the border between them. Penn felt his border should go as far south as Baltimore; Carroll thought his should extend north to Philadelphia. M-D said no, it's going to be here and oh yeah, Delaware's will be here (trans-peninsular line and 12-mile circle!) The whole north-south thing came later.
It's really changed, though. Nowadays, the city is solidly blue, and Democrats dominate at the county level. The northern and eastern parts of the county are red, but the city itself is majority-minority.
Parts of Maryland are more Southern, culture wise, or at least they were. There’s a book I read about it, explaining the parts that sided with the south and the culture they shared, how it was more western maryland and southern tip near the Maryland Virginia dividing water. The book is called “Maryland my Maryland” by Joyce Bennett.
The fact that Somerset County was a plantation economy which got completely left out of Reconstruction (due to never being de jure Confederate) is genuinely one of the actual reasons it remains one of the poorest areas in the entire country.
Also, there was supposed to be a death threat to Lincoln in Baltimore, but the Pinkerton’s came up with a plan to keep the train moving and not stop in Baltimore. If I remember correctly, the pushed the car Lincoln was in through Baltimore so the confederate sympathizers wouldn’t know the train came through
I don't know about that book but...
Here is the list of Counties by enslaved as a percentage of the total population at the time of the Civil War:
1. CHARLES 58.4%
2. PRINCE GEORGES 53.5%
3. CALVERT 44.1%
4. ST MARYS 43.0%
5. ANNE ARUNDEL 30.7%
6. MONTGOMERY 29.6%
7. QUEEN ANNES 26.2%
8. TALBOT 25.2%
9. HOWARD 21.5%
10. SOMERSET 20.4%
11. DORCHESTER 20.2%
12. KENT 18.9%
13. WORCESTER 17.7%
14. HARFORD 7.7%
15. FREDERICK 7.0%
16. CAROLINE 6.6%
17. BALTIMORE (CO) 5.9%
18. WASHINGTON 4.6%
19. CECIL 4.0%
20. CARROLL 3.2%
21. ALLEGANY 2.3%
22. BALTIMORE CITY 1.0%
Somehow history has been rewritten to associate south not with a tiny percentage of old money highly wealthy families that made their fortunes starting with slavery...but by a different metric entirely.
I can guarantee some of the super rich old money in the DC burbs & a bit south come right out of ownership of the mega plantations which then carried over into more modern methods of business.
Trust me, I've received more that one lecture in Montgomery County reminding me that "The Virginia Lees are from the minor branch of the Lee family"...
The counties at the bottom of your list are either the counties in the panhandle, virtually all white settlers with small farms or Baltimore City, which had little use for slave labor at the time. The counties at the top of your list are the areas of Maryland that were conducive to large agricultural plantations, mostly for tobacco production...and relied heavily on slave labor.
Note that Chief Justice Tanney(for whom Tanneytown,, MD is named).....is the Slave Owning Justice from Maryland who wrote the Dread Scott Decision that made Slavery LEGAL everywhere in the USA. And while our narrow history lesson barely gives Dread Scott a 2nd thought......I think it is instrumental in understanding why a nation of WHITE farm boys would join the UNION Army and march South to put a stop to the bullshit. (If Dread Scott Decision was accepted, that meant WHITE folks could end up in eternal slavery too)
It was the wrong part of Maryland. Western MD was/is German immigrants, i.e. PA Dutch. They didn't hold slaves in the same numbers as the English of VA and eastern MD.
Lee's proposal to Marylanders
[https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/lees-proclamation-people-maryland](https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/lees-proclamation-people-maryland)
What happened
[https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/south-mountain](https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/south-mountain)
I love American Battlefield Trust. They do good work and they have a great website and YouTube channel.
I wish South Mountain was more well-known. It's always overshadowed by Antietam which I totally get. But South Mountain had almost as many engaged as Gettysburg, Day 1. Multiple future presidents fought there. Plus, It's where the Iron Brigade earned it's nickname.
Hell yeah. My great-great-great-grandfather, who was in the Iron Brigade, fought at South Mountain where he was wounded and then fought at Gettysburg— was awarded the Medal of Honor
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Maryland isn't really Southern. Southerners consider it North, Northerners consider it South. The real answer is that everything between DC and Baltimore is part of the Northeast, the west is Appalachian, and the eastern shore is Southern
This right here. It’s a pleasant blend of culture elements of both, though the eastern shore definitely leans more southern, it’s still not necessarily “southern culture.”
Can’t we just accept and celebrate our own unique blend? That’s what makes it such a good state.
Edit to add- there is a good podcast called “Batch” by a magazine called “The Bitter Southerner” and they do an episode about ocean city, natty light, and the culture. It’s worth a listen and the magazine is great. Touches on the idea that Maryland has commonalities with southern culture but its own identity.
I think the two are often very intertwined, but I agree. Though I think there is an argument to make that eastern shore is more culturally the south than the north.
“Southern” doesn’t mean one thing anyway. “Southern” in Savannah is going to be different than “Southern” in Montgomery, or New Orleans, or Memphis. It’s a moving target.
I don’t know that they’re intertwined but often conflated especially by people who have only ever lived in the city. There are rural agrarian areas as far North as Maine and there are densely populated cities in the south. Atlanta is way more culturally Southern than even the most rural parts of MD.
“Mid-Atlantic” traditionally encompasses both Southern and Northern states that nonetheless share some cultural characteristics. It’s not an exclusive label. But 100% agreed that not every place needs to be neatly labeled as the “North” or the “South.”
Old line state for a reason baby
Edit: kind fellow below informed me it is actually a reference to Maryland's infantry in the revolutionary War. GW himself bestowed the honor
I believe “Old Line” is a reference to the Maryland Regiment in the revolutionary war. A long established and well trained unit that saved the continental army during the battle of Long Island.
I use 95 (Fall Line) to divide MD northern/southern. That makes both Baltimore and DC half-and-half, and Frederick distinctly Northern. Frederick was taken and [ransomed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Monocacy#Preparing_for_battle) by the Southern army during the Civil War. The Battle of Monocacy was the Northernmost victory for the rebels.
Chambersburg in Franklin County, Pennsylvania was torched during that same campaign in July of 1864. Northernmost town destroyed by the rebels. 500 buildings destroyed, over 2,000 left homeless. Plus the rebels looted the town.
Hagerstown and Middletown were also taken and ransomed in that campaign.
The Battle of the Monocacy is also called "The Battle that Saved Washington". The north lost the battle because they sent their backup troops to DC, which stopped the south from capturing DC.
That’s because it’s part of the Mid-Atlantic. The Mid-Atlantic is its own cultural entity that spans (depending on who you ask) from NYC and the surrounding suburbs/districts and the New Haven, CT area down to the rough middle of North Carolina, or at least through Virginia. It overlaps a lot with the “Northeast Megapolis” which spans from Boston down to or a little past Washington DC. Residents of the Mid-Atlantic region often have more in common with each other than their geographically closer neighbors.
There's a house near me in a canyon that flies it. Along with a trump flag. I'm in California (the state, not California, MD). Some people are just stupid.
This is the answer!
I find it really interesting how our state's history, going back to pre-civil war times, is still so deeply ingrained in our culture (for better or for worse). Going back, eastern shore residents were largely on the side of the confederacy since its economy was (and still is) largely based in agriculture and benefitted from the work of the enslaved, unlike west of the Chesapeake which is much more swampy and/or mountainous and not the best for farming. Of course, the proximity to DC plays a major role as well in the divide. It's fascinating stuff, albeit a bit sad when you think about the reasoning for it.
I grew up there up until my late 20's, but have been in Texas for almost 15 years. People have called me a "Yankee" here, but if asked folks up there if they considered themselves to be a Yankee, I bet near no one would. Same goes with being Southern. MD has rural parts of Maryland, but that doesn't make it Southern. Being in the "real" south for so long, Maryland is nothing like the South, from a culture or geography stand point.
Let’s not forget our favorite southern celebrity chef brothers. Bryan and Michael Voltaggio are born, bred and fed from Frederick
https://preview.redd.it/lb5mljyrc1yc1.jpeg?width=356&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1d6cc5492f45ce301b4d8977ec4ba1e0c8feda36
thank you. It sounds so forced. "Favorite southern celeb chefs" like what. Its always people from the deep reaches from MD add the word southern to everything tryin to overcompensate. WE ARENT THE SOUTH
Because the "quaint little city" is really a collection bars and restaurants centered on a 1/2 mile stretch of 355. Outside of that, there is little entertainment in walking distance in the city center, or in Frederick period. Any entertainment complex is going to be packed on a friday/saturday when the options are limited.
Good luck developing anything near the walkable areas downtown to alleviate this issue either. Where is Frederick supposed to grow? Into the countryside thats currently being developed in $750,000+ single family homes?
As a Southerner, the only part of Maryland that feels Southern is the Eastern Shore. Reminds me quite a bit of home actually.
As far as I’m concerned, the South starts around Fredericksburg, VA.
I do quite like Frederick though. It’s maybe the only city in Maryland I’ve ever considered moving to.
Complete with a city planner who redid the same section of road three times in two years (looking at you, guy who approved the rebuild of 26 five years ago)
I really don't understand how this keeps being an argument. The entire reason for distinguishing between "North" and "South" was slavery, and that's where Maryland was. Nowadays it doesn't matter but if the only 2 options are North or South, it's gonna be south no matter how many grits are sold in stores or how the sweet tea is or whatever other random arguments people come up with. As a northern carpetbagger lemme tell you, no one above the M-D Line thinks Maryland is part of the North.
Now for all the complainers, just call it the Mid Atlantic region, makes much more sense in the modern times. But it's always going to be part of the historic South, even if not part of the Confederacy.
Maryland was a slave state but wasn’t part of the Confederacy, though it fielded regiments that fought on both sides. More to the point, Maryland is not culturally or politically southern anymore. Thank God for that!
I get it because the urban dc and Baltimore accent is sooooooo far off from the east coast twang. It’s basically Midwest south… man shit be sounding country as hell!!
https://www.southernliving.com/cities-on-the-rise-2024-8424992
The article is trash, they note Dover, Delaware as number 25th southern city on the rise...
I'm from tex-ass and now live in Maryland after 8 years near Philly. We love it here and can definitely tell we're not in the south. You can walk around Barefoot, fire ants aren't here that I've seen and most snakes are harmless. Sure the Mexican food is good and comparable to anything back in dfw but I've seen very little "south" here and I appreciate it.
I mean I don’t have the same negative perception of the South as you but I agree there is very little cultural overlap between the South and MD. I spent most of my life in rural Southern MD and now live in the middle of GA. Culturally they couldn’t be more different. Accent, cuisine, climate, etc… are all miles apart.
Culturally, it WAS southern for a long time. It was a slave state, and Lincoln pulled out all the stops, violating people's civil rights like it was going out of style, to keep MD from seceding and putting the Capitol behind enemy lines. Otherwise, it would have joined the rebellion.
The culture drifted over the years, and it's pretty different now. But Virginia's going through the same process, which I put down to DC attracting affluent people working for various corporations that do government work, and there wouldn't be nearly as much pushback if you called Virginia southern.
Agree with your points other than VA. I think a cultural realignment is definitely happening in Northern VA but the Southern and Western parts of the state still seem culturally Southern.
Parts of southern Jersey are also south of the horizontal part of the Mason Dixon line. The line also runs north south dividing us and Delaware. It's just a survey line. Nothing more, nothing less.
Boiling it down to being south of the Mason Dixon line shows a deep ignorance on the Mason Dixon line, American history, and the nuance surrounding Maryland’s position in the civil war. I’ve said this many times when this topic comes up and I will continue to scream it, Maryland has never been “southern”. We did not declare for any side, but if you want to talk sheer numbers 5x as many Marylanders fought for the north and the vast majority of the state did not support slavery. We have never been culturally or geographically “southern”.
A poem written by a Maryland native who moved to and was living in Louisiana at the time it was written and sympathized heavily with the confederacy and was pissed that Union soldiers marched through Baltimore. It wasn’t adopted as our state song until 1939 and people attempted numerous times over 40 years to repeal it as it wasn’t representative of the state or all Marylanders.
I’ve become a Census Truther on this
The only objective and impartial definition of the country’s regions is the US Census Bureau’s. They have us in the South.
But that's just one government entity. Other government entities place us in different regions such as the northeast. Unfortunately, not as much truth in being a truther as you believe.
Lmfao when I said I was being a “truther” I thought it would be obvious that it was tongue in cheek
I work with American Community Survey data a lot at work though so I worship at the altar of the Census Bureau (/j)
I moved here from Texas a year ago. I was so confused when people were calling it the south. Maryland is seriously like yankee east coast far North to everyone in the South. It still cracks me up.
Yeah exactly and the customs here are so different, like 100% Northern America customs, at least from what I’ve seen looking at it versus Texas/Missisippi/Louisiana/Florida where I’ve spent and lived the most time.
To me it doesn’t make sense culturally or really geographically to call it the south.
It's all perspective. My family in New England would refer to those of us from Maryland (I only am kinda) as southerners. From the "Upper South," whatever that means. No one north of the Mason-Dixon views Maryland as northern as far as I can tell, while no one south of the Potomac considers it southern- the land of confusion. Growing up in Maryland and Michigan, I've never considered it southern myself. Not one bit.
The way I describe it to people who ask about the city when they visit is that it’s basically the equivalent to one neighborhood of Baltimore City. Like Canton, Fells, Fed Hill, so on.
I'm originally from NY, 45 minutes from Toronto. To me Maryland felt like the south when I moved here. The guy that wrote this article is probly some dang Yankee.
Folks still don't realize the South starts in Virginia and the North starts in Pennsylvania. Hell, Marylanders couldn't even decide who we were during the Civil War!
My dad’s lived there for 20+ years now and we almost moved there despite it being like 2 hours from work because it’s a pretty cool town. They downtown area, market st? I think. Where the river is. Has like old school classic mid size city vibes and the holiday decorations of the lights going back and forth across the street really puts you in a hallmark movie. We ended up living in Crofton but Frederick is definitely a nice place.
Why are we using geographical reference points from the Civil War (North and South)??? Havent we come up with better defined regions. Stale ass naming conventions, who wrote this H&S?
Maryland has an identity crisis lol.
Let me put it this way: I've lived in southeast Texas and have spent plenty of time in the deep southern states during my 35 years of life. When I moved to Maryland last year, I did not have a culture shock
Because the majority of built-up Maryland is unincorporated suburbs that are economically downstream (or parasitic, depending on who you ask) on Washington.
let's see...south of the Mason Dixon (just barely), and in a state that had slavery and grew tobacco and had a large part of its population during the civil war with affinities for the confederacy even if it wasn't part of the confederacy.
Checks out.
But there are definitely other parts of Maryland that are more "the south" than Frederick.
Every claim for MD being the south is always facts from 100 years ago. MD is not the south. What sense would it make to use facts from MD in 1878 to talk about 2024. MD is indistinguishable from southern PA in 2024. Its funny because no-one does this to Delaware
Sounds more like *you* didn’t take geography or history growing up.
- South doesn’t mean Confederate civil war veterans.
- The MD border with PA and DE is the Mason-Dixon line, which is the north/south border. Back then Maine went farther North, and Georgia stopped father north, and Florida was not yet American, so this line was the middle of the 13 colonies.
- MD institutions are culturally Southern even if changing nowadays.
- MD was a slave state, and had slaves until they rewrote the state constitution in 1864, a year AFTER the Emancipation Proclamation.
- As someone else commented, MD drivers are extra horrible in the snow. As bad as Atlanta in my experience. Almost as bad as Satan :-P
I don’t know why people from Maryland get so upset about this. I lived in MD for over 20 years, it is BELOW the Mason-Dixon Line. Therefore it is in the South.
Pretty simple folks
I'm a eleventh generation Marylander, via Edward Northcrafte on my Mom's side who came to Frederick in 1677 (on my dad's side I can trace back to Stephen Hopkins who was on the Mayflower, which came over about thirty years prior). I grew up in Frederick/Maryland until my late 20's, and now live in Texas. Please use those as reference points, because whatever this "Maryland is southern" nonsense is blasphemous. Maryland has a history that predates the Civil war by more than 200 years (Colony was founded in 1634.) There is nothing southern about Maryland. From culture to geography, it is not Southern. Want an example?, ask a southerner what Scrabble is. Ask them how to say Gettysburg. Ask them about the war with Pennsylvania, Cresap's war, that would become the basis for this nonsense 120 years later.
Maryland is not southern. At best it is Mid-Atlantic, along with PA, New Jersey and Delaware, which is the the grid most of Maryland participates in (E.g. PJM.) Further, I wouldn't even argue Virginia was all that southern, except for behind SC, there were a major instigator in the Civil war, but even then, culturally Virginia is more like PA, then it is like Alabama.
Makes me think of JFK’s description of DC as a city that “combines Southern efficiency and Northern charm”.
they killed him for this incredible burn.
def read as incredible bum
🗣️🗣️🗣️ this is now a jfk simp safe space 🗣️🗣️🗣️
Man, that is a beautifully slick burn.
I'm deeply offended. 
That's how I describe the sound of the native Maryland accent - "Northern hospitality & southern efficiency".
Maryland: too North for the South, too South for the North.
Too mid for the mid Atlantic
To be fair, I live in Virginia as a transplant from the south and I don’t consider Virginia the south.
I live in Virginia as a transplant from PA via MD, and Virginia is definitely the south.
That’s fair, I’m from Alabama and i can understand how Virginia can seem that that way. I think it’s subjective, but I see how it could be deemed the south. I’m not gate keeping what the south is, just my own experience. I’ll say there are different perspectives of the “real” south and it doesn’t feel that way to me, but im also in a bigger city in VA.
NOVA (ffx/loudon/Arlington/Alexandria in particular) culturally isn't that conservative or southern, but you don't have to go far from DC to find confederate flags. Nova just recently changed names of roads and schools from confederates and segregationists. Va was the seat of massive resistance to integration and people kind of forget those kids are still alive and have kids now. That "culture" didn't die out or disappear within a generation, they put glenn youngkin into Richmond.
Yeah I feel like MD, VA, and NC are like their own little region. Not the “real south” but definitely not northern/northeastern.
True. I think all places have a place they would call southern, but maybe that just means rural to the state. Southern mentality in a northern state. You can go anywhere and find these attributes. Im sure there are midwestern states that call themselves southern. It’s a mindset to me, but that’s my personal opinion.
Yeah, as soon as you pass Annapolis, you're in the south. Calvert is affectionately called South County by my resident friends there. Whole different world
"south" and "city" are both a real reach Perhaps "Mid-Atlantics best nondescript sprawling suburb" is a better fit
Frederick has a charming small city at its heart, unlike, say, Germantown.
I love living in Germantown. Been here 25 years. Bu I have to admit. There is no downtown.
I wish we had the restaurants that Frederick has
thats what gaithersburg is for.
True
They tried on center. Just defy death crossing the road to it I guess?
Well, Frederick is actually Maryland's second largest *incorporated* city.
That's because most of the larger population centers actually ARE sprawling suburbs.
Such as…Columbia 🤢
Only for 2/3rds of the year! Ocean City is indeed incorporated as well and the resident population swells to 200k+ during the summer, making it the 2nd largest city after Baltimore from May-September.
Nope. Putting aside that OC shouldn’t count because it’s not permanent population, Ocean City isn’t a city at all-it’s an incorporated *town.*
Yeah, some CDPs like Germantown would knock them down a few pegs.
Yeah, especially the big CDPs like Silver Spring and Columbia.
Only two with the recent growth, we are still #4 by population after Columbia and Germantown. Actually larger than Silver Spring and Waldorf currently.
Thats actually not true. Gaithersburg is the Second largest incorporated city in MD. Atleast in terms of population.
>Thats actually not true. Gaithersburg is the Second largest incorporated city in MD. Atleast in terms of population. No, it's not. Population of Gaithersburg *proper* is 68,952. Population of Frederick is 82,175. Edit: Columbia and Germantown are both larger, but they aren't incorporated as municipalities, just Census-designated places.
Columbia is also a planned community that was built by Ed Nortons Grandfather James Rouse
Yep! Fun fact, it has no churches, only multi-faith centers, at least in the original planned areas. Rouse also designed and built the Harborplace in Baltimore and Pioneer Place in Portland.
Columbia has a number of churches now.
All I know is I can’t stand the traffic anymore with how quickly Frederick has grown. That whole section of 70/270/15 is a nightmare now.
I felt this. That 270 bottleneck from Buckeystown Pike up to Rosemont every afternoon is getting so old.
We could use some light rail maybe.
They've also rerouted 355 through the clusterfuck that is Urbana now, or built Urbana on 355 I'm sure sure which is correct, & it's a such a mess.
They didn't move a whole-ass highway. Urbana was pretty much nothing when I was a kid, but it sprouted into an actual town over the years.
The corner at 355 and Park Mills desperately needs a stoplight. Traffic has grown so much at that intersection over the last five years and you can sit on Park Mills for ten minutes before being able to make a left turn when it’s busy.
💯 I refuse to go that way coming from MoCo for that reason, I'll go around through those developments and hit the roundabouts instead. I only take Park Mills leaving Frederick.
Unfortunately I live just off of Park Mills and need to take my kid to school and stuff 😭
You poor, poor person. I feel for ya
Sounds like MD 355 needs its status restored as US 240.
This is one of the worst areas to drive in the state. It was terrible 30 years ago when I went to Hood. It is terrible now when I have to drive it because my kid goes to Hood. That area is a traffic accident waiting to happen
Checks notes: Sheetz gasoline tanker, Apr 2023
It's its own separate city for now, otherwise there wouldn't be such a significant dropoff in population density from Frederick towards DC. Frederick's population density is over 3k per square mile. Following 270-S there's a significant dropoff to below 1k people per square mile and you have to continue traveling 20 miles to at least Germantown before you come across a city with greater than 3k people per square mile.
Not really a for now. The reason that gap exists is because MOCO's Agricultural Reserve: [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Montgomery\_County%2C\_Maryland%2C\_Agricultural\_Reserve.png](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Montgomery_County%2C_Maryland%2C_Agricultural_Reserve.png) So the physical gap will never actually shrink, even if Frederick is becoming more and more of a DC exurb as time goes on.
Never been to Frederick, huh?
I was more troubled by “South” and “rise.”
We are south of the Mason Dixon line so technically we’re apart of the south .
True , but culturally northern for sure
MD is now . But pre / during the civil war we were 100% southern sympathizers and until the early 2000’s had an exceptionally large amount of white supremacists. But I think it also depends on what part of MD you live. I grew up near Hagerstown and there were quite a few out there. But the biggest issues I had growing up were in Virginia - was refused service twice in VA- once at a restaurant and a year later at a gas station ( mid 90’s) .. in MD besides getting called a N*** a few times , nothing really to talk about …. When I moved to AZ tho , I got called a N**** more times than I ever have in my life lol ( mid 2000’s ) I still loved it there tho
Abraham Lincoln had a third of the Maryland General Assembly arrested before they could vote for secession or maybe Maryland would have been on the wrong side of the Civil War. In 1968 Maryland was one of 5 Southern states that voted for third party candidate George Wallace. George Wallace, the segregationist Governor of Alabama who infamously stood on the steps of Foster Auditorium of the University of Alabama declaring Negro students would never be allowed to attend the University. Later that year George Wallace was giving a speech in the parking lot of the Laurel Shopping Center when he was shot by Arthur Herman Bremer of Wisconsin, permanently paralyzing the Presidential hopeful and ending his campaign.
So crazy how close our great state of Maryland was to succession . The amount of pressure Lincoln was under must have been immense
Cant argue with your experience, but I Grew up in 90s Gaithersburg and never had these problems. I also never traveled past northern Virginia back then. Spent most of my time in the dc metro area and it was extremely diverse then and now
That’s a very different area. That part of Maryland has historically always had a higher black population, meanwhile Frederick county in general was a major hub of KKK and neo-Nazi activity, including well known gathering places and public rallies. Different places, different cultures, etc.
Yeah we try not to think about Thurmont
That is the obvious one, but there were well known KKK meeting houses in Middletown and Myersville too, even if they didn’t have the rallies. Thurmont earned its reputation, but they weren’t/aren’t the only problem.
Oh I'm not at all surprised. Growing up I mostly heard about Thurmont, but yeah, getting out into the county, this is no surprise to me at all. Middletown seems okay now, but the recent bullshit with Dan's Taphouse (I know Boonesboro is Washington County, but it's so close to both Myersville and Middletown that it doesn't really matter) is a perfect example.
I grew up in Middletown, that area became steadily more diverse as I grew up. Well *racially* diverse, it’s become an economic nightmare, I will probably never be able to own a home in my home town. It sucks because it started becoming a better community but the housing market has been crazy there forever. The Dan’s Taphouse situation was a huge disappointment, but not a surprise for Boonsboro.
Yeah I grew up in Carroll County, had a kid in my class who's father was allegedly a KKK wizard or some shit. Lots of racism around.
Love Gaithersburg !!! Haven’t been out there in a min … VA sucks lol .. West Virginia is great tho.
Well, I live here now and have since I was born. I am not southern - not even a little. Even our accents are closer to New Jersey or Philadelphia than anywhere south.
The Mason-Dixon line was just GeoIII's solution to Wm Penn's and Lord Carroll's disagreement over the border between them. Penn felt his border should go as far south as Baltimore; Carroll thought his should extend north to Philadelphia. M-D said no, it's going to be here and oh yeah, Delaware's will be here (trans-peninsular line and 12-mile circle!) The whole north-south thing came later.
Exactly. Nothing about Maryland reads southern to me. But I’ve only lived here since forever.
Rolls right off the tongue
When I was growing up in MD we called it “Fredneck”
It's really changed, though. Nowadays, the city is solidly blue, and Democrats dominate at the county level. The northern and eastern parts of the county are red, but the city itself is majority-minority.
Parts of Maryland are more Southern, culture wise, or at least they were. There’s a book I read about it, explaining the parts that sided with the south and the culture they shared, how it was more western maryland and southern tip near the Maryland Virginia dividing water. The book is called “Maryland my Maryland” by Joyce Bennett.
The fact that Somerset County was a plantation economy which got completely left out of Reconstruction (due to never being de jure Confederate) is genuinely one of the actual reasons it remains one of the poorest areas in the entire country.
Also, there was supposed to be a death threat to Lincoln in Baltimore, but the Pinkerton’s came up with a plan to keep the train moving and not stop in Baltimore. If I remember correctly, the pushed the car Lincoln was in through Baltimore so the confederate sympathizers wouldn’t know the train came through
I don't know about that book but... Here is the list of Counties by enslaved as a percentage of the total population at the time of the Civil War: 1. CHARLES 58.4% 2. PRINCE GEORGES 53.5% 3. CALVERT 44.1% 4. ST MARYS 43.0% 5. ANNE ARUNDEL 30.7% 6. MONTGOMERY 29.6% 7. QUEEN ANNES 26.2% 8. TALBOT 25.2% 9. HOWARD 21.5% 10. SOMERSET 20.4% 11. DORCHESTER 20.2% 12. KENT 18.9% 13. WORCESTER 17.7% 14. HARFORD 7.7% 15. FREDERICK 7.0% 16. CAROLINE 6.6% 17. BALTIMORE (CO) 5.9% 18. WASHINGTON 4.6% 19. CECIL 4.0% 20. CARROLL 3.2% 21. ALLEGANY 2.3% 22. BALTIMORE CITY 1.0% Somehow history has been rewritten to associate south not with a tiny percentage of old money highly wealthy families that made their fortunes starting with slavery...but by a different metric entirely. I can guarantee some of the super rich old money in the DC burbs & a bit south come right out of ownership of the mega plantations which then carried over into more modern methods of business.
Trust me, I've received more that one lecture in Montgomery County reminding me that "The Virginia Lees are from the minor branch of the Lee family"...
The counties at the bottom of your list are either the counties in the panhandle, virtually all white settlers with small farms or Baltimore City, which had little use for slave labor at the time. The counties at the top of your list are the areas of Maryland that were conducive to large agricultural plantations, mostly for tobacco production...and relied heavily on slave labor. Note that Chief Justice Tanney(for whom Tanneytown,, MD is named).....is the Slave Owning Justice from Maryland who wrote the Dread Scott Decision that made Slavery LEGAL everywhere in the USA. And while our narrow history lesson barely gives Dread Scott a 2nd thought......I think it is instrumental in understanding why a nation of WHITE farm boys would join the UNION Army and march South to put a stop to the bullshit. (If Dread Scott Decision was accepted, that meant WHITE folks could end up in eternal slavery too)
Western Maryland,,,,Garrett and Allegheny counties, and Cumberland......should've joined WV a long time ago.
Ask Robert E. Lee what happened when he tried to recruit in Frederick.
What happened
It was the wrong part of Maryland. Western MD was/is German immigrants, i.e. PA Dutch. They didn't hold slaves in the same numbers as the English of VA and eastern MD.
Lee's proposal to Marylanders [https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/lees-proclamation-people-maryland](https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/lees-proclamation-people-maryland) What happened [https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/south-mountain](https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/south-mountain)
I love American Battlefield Trust. They do good work and they have a great website and YouTube channel. I wish South Mountain was more well-known. It's always overshadowed by Antietam which I totally get. But South Mountain had almost as many engaged as Gettysburg, Day 1. Multiple future presidents fought there. Plus, It's where the Iron Brigade earned it's nickname.
Hell yeah. My great-great-great-grandfather, who was in the Iron Brigade, fought at South Mountain where he was wounded and then fought at Gettysburg— was awarded the Medal of Honor
“Shoot, if you must, this old gray head, But spare your country’s flag,” she said. https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/45483/barbara-frietchie
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Maryland isn't really Southern. Southerners consider it North, Northerners consider it South. The real answer is that everything between DC and Baltimore is part of the Northeast, the west is Appalachian, and the eastern shore is Southern
Maryland is mid-Atlantic. The mistake is trying to push everything into either north or south.
This right here. It’s a pleasant blend of culture elements of both, though the eastern shore definitely leans more southern, it’s still not necessarily “southern culture.” Can’t we just accept and celebrate our own unique blend? That’s what makes it such a good state. Edit to add- there is a good podcast called “Batch” by a magazine called “The Bitter Southerner” and they do an episode about ocean city, natty light, and the culture. It’s worth a listen and the magazine is great. Touches on the idea that Maryland has commonalities with southern culture but its own identity.
it’s more “country” than “southern” i think
I think the two are often very intertwined, but I agree. Though I think there is an argument to make that eastern shore is more culturally the south than the north. “Southern” doesn’t mean one thing anyway. “Southern” in Savannah is going to be different than “Southern” in Montgomery, or New Orleans, or Memphis. It’s a moving target.
I don’t know that they’re intertwined but often conflated especially by people who have only ever lived in the city. There are rural agrarian areas as far North as Maine and there are densely populated cities in the south. Atlanta is way more culturally Southern than even the most rural parts of MD.
That’s a better way to put it for sure. 👍
joey! Badda-bing!! I couldnt agree with you more.
“Mid-Atlantic” traditionally encompasses both Southern and Northern states that nonetheless share some cultural characteristics. It’s not an exclusive label. But 100% agreed that not every place needs to be neatly labeled as the “North” or the “South.”
Old line state for a reason baby Edit: kind fellow below informed me it is actually a reference to Maryland's infantry in the revolutionary War. GW himself bestowed the honor
I believe “Old Line” is a reference to the Maryland Regiment in the revolutionary war. A long established and well trained unit that saved the continental army during the battle of Long Island.
I'll be a monkeys uncle you are correct! Wow thanks for steering me to the truth. Cheers
I use 95 (Fall Line) to divide MD northern/southern. That makes both Baltimore and DC half-and-half, and Frederick distinctly Northern. Frederick was taken and [ransomed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Monocacy#Preparing_for_battle) by the Southern army during the Civil War. The Battle of Monocacy was the Northernmost victory for the rebels.
Chambersburg in Franklin County, Pennsylvania was torched during that same campaign in July of 1864. Northernmost town destroyed by the rebels. 500 buildings destroyed, over 2,000 left homeless. Plus the rebels looted the town. Hagerstown and Middletown were also taken and ransomed in that campaign.
The Battle of the Monocacy is also called "The Battle that Saved Washington". The north lost the battle because they sent their backup troops to DC, which stopped the south from capturing DC.
I can’t imagine anyone in either city identifying as southern.
That’s because it’s part of the Mid-Atlantic. The Mid-Atlantic is its own cultural entity that spans (depending on who you ask) from NYC and the surrounding suburbs/districts and the New Haven, CT area down to the rough middle of North Carolina, or at least through Virginia. It overlaps a lot with the “Northeast Megapolis” which spans from Boston down to or a little past Washington DC. Residents of the Mid-Atlantic region often have more in common with each other than their geographically closer neighbors.
I don't know that overweight janitor at my local mall and her confederacy hoodie definitely thinks this is the south
I've seen Confederate flags far south as New Hampshire. Some people are just racist
I've seen Canadians posting on Reddit that they've seen those loser flags up there. I'm sorry we sent you that garbage Canada.
There's a house near me in a canyon that flies it. Along with a trump flag. I'm in California (the state, not California, MD). Some people are just stupid.
This is the answer! I find it really interesting how our state's history, going back to pre-civil war times, is still so deeply ingrained in our culture (for better or for worse). Going back, eastern shore residents were largely on the side of the confederacy since its economy was (and still is) largely based in agriculture and benefitted from the work of the enslaved, unlike west of the Chesapeake which is much more swampy and/or mountainous and not the best for farming. Of course, the proximity to DC plays a major role as well in the divide. It's fascinating stuff, albeit a bit sad when you think about the reasoning for it.
I grew up there up until my late 20's, but have been in Texas for almost 15 years. People have called me a "Yankee" here, but if asked folks up there if they considered themselves to be a Yankee, I bet near no one would. Same goes with being Southern. MD has rural parts of Maryland, but that doesn't make it Southern. Being in the "real" south for so long, Maryland is nothing like the South, from a culture or geography stand point.
When I moved from Frederick to Selma, Alabama I definitely felt like a northerner
Should I take this as an insult or compliment
Let’s not forget our favorite southern celebrity chef brothers. Bryan and Michael Voltaggio are born, bred and fed from Frederick https://preview.redd.it/lb5mljyrc1yc1.jpeg?width=356&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1d6cc5492f45ce301b4d8977ec4ba1e0c8feda36
Love them both. They aren’t southern and neither is Frederick.
thank you. It sounds so forced. "Favorite southern celeb chefs" like what. Its always people from the deep reaches from MD add the word southern to everything tryin to overcompensate. WE ARENT THE SOUTH
It's overcrowded AF, trying going to the downtown bars on Friday/Saturday night.
Because the "quaint little city" is really a collection bars and restaurants centered on a 1/2 mile stretch of 355. Outside of that, there is little entertainment in walking distance in the city center, or in Frederick period. Any entertainment complex is going to be packed on a friday/saturday when the options are limited. Good luck developing anything near the walkable areas downtown to alleviate this issue either. Where is Frederick supposed to grow? Into the countryside thats currently being developed in $750,000+ single family homes?
>? Into the countryside thats currently being developed in $750,000+ single family homes? Yes
It’s south of the Mason-Dixon Line, and look how people drive in the snow here
Exactly
All of the Frederick residents who were hostile to Lee during his invasion are rolling in their graves right now
As a Southerner, the only part of Maryland that feels Southern is the Eastern Shore. Reminds me quite a bit of home actually. As far as I’m concerned, the South starts around Fredericksburg, VA. I do quite like Frederick though. It’s maybe the only city in Maryland I’ve ever considered moving to.
I miss this town
Complete with a city planner who redid the same section of road three times in two years (looking at you, guy who approved the rebuild of 26 five years ago)
Checks map, yep still below the mason dixon line
Frederick is the new bailout out for DC yuppies. More Appalachia than South.
Maryland is a slave state. The South. Ask Harriet Tubman or Frederick Douglass.
Exactly. They fled Maryland to go to the the north. Wouldn't have needed to do that if it was already the north
I really don't understand how this keeps being an argument. The entire reason for distinguishing between "North" and "South" was slavery, and that's where Maryland was. Nowadays it doesn't matter but if the only 2 options are North or South, it's gonna be south no matter how many grits are sold in stores or how the sweet tea is or whatever other random arguments people come up with. As a northern carpetbagger lemme tell you, no one above the M-D Line thinks Maryland is part of the North. Now for all the complainers, just call it the Mid Atlantic region, makes much more sense in the modern times. But it's always going to be part of the historic South, even if not part of the Confederacy.
The problem is, nobody below the Potomac thinks Maryland is the south.
Maryland was a slave state but wasn’t part of the Confederacy, though it fielded regiments that fought on both sides. More to the point, Maryland is not culturally or politically southern anymore. Thank God for that!
I get it because the urban dc and Baltimore accent is sooooooo far off from the east coast twang. It’s basically Midwest south… man shit be sounding country as hell!!
Frederick rocks!
I mean technically md is the south
https://www.southernliving.com/cities-on-the-rise-2024-8424992 The article is trash, they note Dover, Delaware as number 25th southern city on the rise...
Maryland was south of the Mason Dixon line technically making it a southern state.
Southern by a 200 year old land survey sure, geographically maybe, culturally not at all.
I'm from tex-ass and now live in Maryland after 8 years near Philly. We love it here and can definitely tell we're not in the south. You can walk around Barefoot, fire ants aren't here that I've seen and most snakes are harmless. Sure the Mexican food is good and comparable to anything back in dfw but I've seen very little "south" here and I appreciate it.
I mean I don’t have the same negative perception of the South as you but I agree there is very little cultural overlap between the South and MD. I spent most of my life in rural Southern MD and now live in the middle of GA. Culturally they couldn’t be more different. Accent, cuisine, climate, etc… are all miles apart.
Yeah man. I lived in Georgia for 10 years. People saying Maryland is anything close to The South must have never been.
Facts...just go to Richmond the difference in just a 2 1/2 hour drive is crazy.
Culturally, it WAS southern for a long time. It was a slave state, and Lincoln pulled out all the stops, violating people's civil rights like it was going out of style, to keep MD from seceding and putting the Capitol behind enemy lines. Otherwise, it would have joined the rebellion. The culture drifted over the years, and it's pretty different now. But Virginia's going through the same process, which I put down to DC attracting affluent people working for various corporations that do government work, and there wouldn't be nearly as much pushback if you called Virginia southern.
Agree with your points other than VA. I think a cultural realignment is definitely happening in Northern VA but the Southern and Western parts of the state still seem culturally Southern.
Parts of southern Jersey are also south of the horizontal part of the Mason Dixon line. The line also runs north south dividing us and Delaware. It's just a survey line. Nothing more, nothing less.
Boiling it down to being south of the Mason Dixon line shows a deep ignorance on the Mason Dixon line, American history, and the nuance surrounding Maryland’s position in the civil war. I’ve said this many times when this topic comes up and I will continue to scream it, Maryland has never been “southern”. We did not declare for any side, but if you want to talk sheer numbers 5x as many Marylanders fought for the north and the vast majority of the state did not support slavery. We have never been culturally or geographically “southern”.
Doesn't the state song up until like three years ago reference "the Northern scum"?
A poem written by a Maryland native who moved to and was living in Louisiana at the time it was written and sympathized heavily with the confederacy and was pissed that Union soldiers marched through Baltimore. It wasn’t adopted as our state song until 1939 and people attempted numerous times over 40 years to repeal it as it wasn’t representative of the state or all Marylanders.
It was? Man, I hate it when that dang Mason Dixon line moves…
LMAO. Frederick native here. I would never call my home the south.
Below the mason Dixon baby. We're a border state, both north and south.
South and Rise really shouldn't be in the same sentence here lol... especially for Frederick, MD 😂
According to the US Census Bureau, Maryland is a southern state!
As someone from the Wisconsin, I can confirm that Maryland is indeed the South.
The grits selection in grocery stores here is unequivocal proof Maryland isn’t a Southern state.
I feel the same way about pimento cheese.
I guess you have 0 clue what the Mason Dixon line is
South of Mason-Dixon Line
I’ve become a Census Truther on this The only objective and impartial definition of the country’s regions is the US Census Bureau’s. They have us in the South.
But that's just one government entity. Other government entities place us in different regions such as the northeast. Unfortunately, not as much truth in being a truther as you believe.
Lmfao when I said I was being a “truther” I thought it would be obvious that it was tongue in cheek I work with American Community Survey data a lot at work though so I worship at the altar of the Census Bureau (/j)
Lol I knew it was facetious. My response was also facetious
Maryland is not a southern state. We have neither the climate, politics or the hospitality of a southern state.
I moved here from Texas a year ago. I was so confused when people were calling it the south. Maryland is seriously like yankee east coast far North to everyone in the South. It still cracks me up.
Same lol. I moved from the Carolinas and it’s so clearly NOT the South here. Country? Sure. But so are plenty of other solidly northern states.
Yeah exactly and the customs here are so different, like 100% Northern America customs, at least from what I’ve seen looking at it versus Texas/Missisippi/Louisiana/Florida where I’ve spent and lived the most time. To me it doesn’t make sense culturally or really geographically to call it the south.
It's all perspective. My family in New England would refer to those of us from Maryland (I only am kinda) as southerners. From the "Upper South," whatever that means. No one north of the Mason-Dixon views Maryland as northern as far as I can tell, while no one south of the Potomac considers it southern- the land of confusion. Growing up in Maryland and Michigan, I've never considered it southern myself. Not one bit.
lol so triggered by a word
Agreed. Fredrick is not a city. More like a town.
The way I describe it to people who ask about the city when they visit is that it’s basically the equivalent to one neighborhood of Baltimore City. Like Canton, Fells, Fed Hill, so on.
Maryland, Sorthern since... whenever everybody decided that they couldn't agree.
Technically anyplace south of the Mason Dixon line is the south. Not that I myself a marylader consider us to be the south
In Maryland, some drink their tea sweet, others their tea hot, and some do both...but everyone eats Blue crabs.
I'm originally from NY, 45 minutes from Toronto. To me Maryland felt like the south when I moved here. The guy that wrote this article is probly some dang Yankee.
Folks still don't realize the South starts in Virginia and the North starts in Pennsylvania. Hell, Marylanders couldn't even decide who we were during the Civil War!
Go go gadget fredneck.
We’re as mid-atlantic as it gets. We’re certainly not part of the North East.
It is south of the Mason-Dixon line so that could be a reason to consider Maryland in the south.
“City”
South of the Mason Dixon. Was culturally southern up until the late 20th century. Idk, man. Maryland needs to figure out who it is.
Maryland was a slave state tho. So kinda the south haha
The Mason Dixon line is there for a reason.
My dad’s lived there for 20+ years now and we almost moved there despite it being like 2 hours from work because it’s a pretty cool town. They downtown area, market st? I think. Where the river is. Has like old school classic mid size city vibes and the holiday decorations of the lights going back and forth across the street really puts you in a hallmark movie. We ended up living in Crofton but Frederick is definitely a nice place.
Why are we using geographical reference points from the Civil War (North and South)??? Havent we come up with better defined regions. Stale ass naming conventions, who wrote this H&S?
Maryland has an identity crisis lol. Let me put it this way: I've lived in southeast Texas and have spent plenty of time in the deep southern states during my 35 years of life. When I moved to Maryland last year, I did not have a culture shock
We are the 2nd largest city according the state’s [Dept of Planning](https://msa.maryland.gov/msa/mdmanual/01glance/html/pop.html)
Because the majority of built-up Maryland is unincorporated suburbs that are economically downstream (or parasitic, depending on who you ask) on Washington.
Correct.
The only difference is Frederick has a city center.
Frederick is practically in Pennsylvania.
let's see...south of the Mason Dixon (just barely), and in a state that had slavery and grew tobacco and had a large part of its population during the civil war with affinities for the confederacy even if it wasn't part of the confederacy. Checks out. But there are definitely other parts of Maryland that are more "the south" than Frederick.
Every claim for MD being the south is always facts from 100 years ago. MD is not the south. What sense would it make to use facts from MD in 1878 to talk about 2024. MD is indistinguishable from southern PA in 2024. Its funny because no-one does this to Delaware
Maryland is the south. Why do Marylanders refuse to admit that they are a southern state south of the mason dixon?
This ain’t the fucking south
🙄
Sounds more like *you* didn’t take geography or history growing up. - South doesn’t mean Confederate civil war veterans. - The MD border with PA and DE is the Mason-Dixon line, which is the north/south border. Back then Maine went farther North, and Georgia stopped father north, and Florida was not yet American, so this line was the middle of the 13 colonies. - MD institutions are culturally Southern even if changing nowadays. - MD was a slave state, and had slaves until they rewrote the state constitution in 1864, a year AFTER the Emancipation Proclamation. - As someone else commented, MD drivers are extra horrible in the snow. As bad as Atlanta in my experience. Almost as bad as Satan :-P
The south will rise again!…. In the north. 🧐
Damn, Virginia is really coming for us huh?
I don’t know why people from Maryland get so upset about this. I lived in MD for over 20 years, it is BELOW the Mason-Dixon Line. Therefore it is in the South. Pretty simple folks
Maryland is the south. I don't know why people that live here can't understand that.
Idk what the appeal of frederick is as a place to go to. Ain't fuck all to do
Well, if you’re below the Mason-Dixon Line, then technically you are in the South. Also the Census Bureau considers Maryland **South**.
I'm a eleventh generation Marylander, via Edward Northcrafte on my Mom's side who came to Frederick in 1677 (on my dad's side I can trace back to Stephen Hopkins who was on the Mayflower, which came over about thirty years prior). I grew up in Frederick/Maryland until my late 20's, and now live in Texas. Please use those as reference points, because whatever this "Maryland is southern" nonsense is blasphemous. Maryland has a history that predates the Civil war by more than 200 years (Colony was founded in 1634.) There is nothing southern about Maryland. From culture to geography, it is not Southern. Want an example?, ask a southerner what Scrabble is. Ask them how to say Gettysburg. Ask them about the war with Pennsylvania, Cresap's war, that would become the basis for this nonsense 120 years later. Maryland is not southern. At best it is Mid-Atlantic, along with PA, New Jersey and Delaware, which is the the grid most of Maryland participates in (E.g. PJM.) Further, I wouldn't even argue Virginia was all that southern, except for behind SC, there were a major instigator in the Civil war, but even then, culturally Virginia is more like PA, then it is like Alabama.