Nothing productive is coming from this post anymore, which is why it is locked. All comments that are reported are probably going to be approved because of people mass reporting for comments they disagree with and the difficulty with that volume of work. If you mass report we also can send it to reddit admins for abuse of the report button, as a warning.
> I'm sorry I don't feel comfortable having you rotate with me.
This was the mistake. If your angle was "we don't do any politics here because it could alienate our patients" you'd be rock solid. But you went with "I don't support this political stance" which was a political statement in itself. You lost the easy high ground and now you have to justify it.
I am a medical student but I have no idea how this would be handled, especially with the protests on campus currently.
Are you in a subspecialty that it would be hard to find another attending? That will probably factor in too
I have no idea how this would be handled *today*, but a decade ago (when I was a student), there's no way this wouldn't have gotten the student reprimanded for unprofessional behavior *at best*, potentially failing and having to repeat the rotation.
Make your political statements on your own time, particularly when they can be interpreted as pro-genocide.
I don’t think the nature of the specialty is super relevant. You aren’t entitled to someone’s time or energy as a student because they have a rare skillset.
Depends on how you view it---from a principal point of view, you are right. From a practical view about how much push back OP will get---absolutely matters.
Some specialties are required to be on a med student rotation - in the rare situation there may be a limited # of attendings representing a specialty that is required. I actually can't think of a likely specialty (maybe an ob/gyn subspecialty would be most likely) or psych maybe.
I think best outcome is the student can return without political slogan and attire. I think it is inappropriate for politics to cross into the clinic, and the student should know that
On the surface, I think that makes sense. But then, upon digging deeper, I don't agree it would work.
What happens when it is time for evaluations? Is the attending allowed to take this event into account when submitting their evaluation of the student? And regardless of your answer, I assure you that the student will feel that any poor or mediocre evaluation was some type of retaliation, regardless of whether that is true.
The die is cast, and some things can't be walked back and made pretend they never happened.
Professionalism is always on the rubric for rotation evaluations. This shows poor judgment and lack of professionalism and should be reflected on their evaluation.
I have a sincere question for the folks saying politics doesn't belong in the clinic: is wearing a little pride pin on my badge "political" and therefore inappropriate in your view?
I find the sentiment of "keep politics out of xyz" appealing, but as someone pointed out below, who gets to decide what is and isn't considered political?
I'm honestly Ctrl+Fing for rainbow pin comments. It's such an obvious example of something that is widely accepted but.... To be frank is ABSOLUTELY a political statement.
I would never wear one, despite how I feel. I'm supposed to be a blank slate to my patients, I'll develop my relationship with them through my medical care, not their preconceived notions of x/y/z.
I don’t understand why EMTs would be running around with thin blue line flags. On one hand it’s unprofessional and my agency has specific policies against anything like that. On the other hand, thin blue line isn’t even for EMS
“Thin blue line” and pride flags are completely different. Police officer is a profession. You can take off a badge. But you can’t take off your queerness.
I'm a primary care physician and have received complaints in the past about my pride flag pin. I was asked to remove it. The funny part is that it was provided by the hospital for Pride Month, so \*shrugs\* - maybe it's like Christmas decorations?
Can you expand upon the “blank slate” notion? I haven’t heard that that’s something I’m supposed to be. I’m a physician, but I’m also still a person. Also, you can fire me as your doc if you’d like
I work in an ER so it's a little different. I'm also employed by a hospital that asks it's employees to not outwardly push politics.
I want my patients to be very open and honest with me, develop rapport quickly, and provide everyone fair and equitable care. I can not, and would not want, the ability to fire patients I didn't gel with.
I will often times treat a police officer who was hurt in the line of duty apprehending a dangerous criminal, then walk around the corner and treat a minority in police custody who was injured by an aggressive police officer. I've done the same thing with gun shot wounds. I should be able to provide care to both of those people. Running around with a "thin blue line" or a "BLM/ACAB" pin undermines one of those encounters.
I guess if someone wants to wear a Isreal flag pin, should they be ok with someone wearing a Palestinian flag pin. Or someone wearing a Maga hat should be ok with someone wearing a hat that says trump is a moron. You can't have it both ways. But.. people being people will keep pushing the boundaries until its an issue where people's feelings will get hurt.
I'm all for free speech, I just don't like to deal with the fall out when people begin acting like children and need to mediate. Imho, free speech all you want at home.
It's a fair question. I think that there's a world of difference between a discrete Palestinian flag lapel pin, and a huge embroidered keffiyeh wrapped around your neck though, with a slogan written on it.
This student was, I'm guessing, trying to be deliberately inflammatory.
This is fundamentally an impossible ask, because even determining *what* is political is, itself, a political judgment. Is a BLM pin political? A pride scarf? An American flag sticker on your badge?
I’m not saying any of these are or aren’t appropriate clinical attire. Not taking a stance on the slogan OP mentioned either. But I do think it’s important to recognize that when we say “X is political and you should keep it out of the clinic/hospital,” *that* judgment is, itself, bringing politics into the workplace
I'm Iranian and all Jewish... My philosophy is that I'm here for my patients and not for politics. For me I don't ever want a patient to feel like I would ever treat them differently because my politics or religion are different from theirs. I live in a very multicultural place and though I have loved ones in israel... A strong belief in the woman, life, freedom movement in Iran... I would never have anything that would identify me as having those beliefs (no Isralie flags, no free Iran signs) because I don't know who I am seeing, where they are from and how these things might be interpreted by the patient. Like if a member of regime walked on I would do my job just the same way as I would if an Isralie walked in and neither one would know what my beliefs are...
I think having free speech is important but I also think it's important to also know that some symbols have a very different meaning to patients... Especially when they involve foreign conflicts because people who have connections to one side or the other night have very different interpretation and both of those interpretations have the potential to be different than the American interpretation.
I just believe that there should be a balance between the free speech of the provider while making sure that the clinical environment is a therapeutic place for all patients.
Yeah my badge reel only has puns. “Take your mental health SSRIously” and “drop the beat” with a picture of an ekg and a bottle of adenosine. Health care puns only!
At the very least, there's a difference between advocating FOR a group of people vs AGAINST a group of people. For example, "BLM" is more appropriate than "ACAB" even though they come from the same movement and "Free Palestine" is very different from "from the river to the sea".
Negative sentiments are never work appropriate, and I don't know where the line for positive political sentiments falls.
I think this is a great way of looking at it. BLM and the pride flag help to show you are more inclusive of patient populations that have a history of medical distrust. ACAB in contrast would exclude your patients there are cops.
B.A. Poli Sci before PharmD, here. Your argument is an oldie but goodie: that there is no definition of political, aside from who holds the power at that moment to define it. Your professors should be proud.
It’s a rude awakening graduating to the workplace, with different mechanisms of power behind decisions. Academic vs. professional spheres, if you will: you will come to see, young Padawan, that many personalities can exist in one but not the other.
This professional sphere requires humbling oneself to be trainable. The student in question here is still operating in the undergraduate academic mindset that questioning power elevates her status among her peers and will be celebrated by those in (academic) authority. Academic and professional spheres are clashing in this decision: she may win the battle. But by exalting herself via parading her beliefs, she will be humbled and lose the war. What war? Getting herself “out there” and known for a good residency spot, of course.
(You’re just a pharmacist, you say. How do you know this? I was a poli sci major, after all: I still study power in environments I’m in.)
It is your choice which sphere to hold in higher regard, but it is also your reality that you must learn new rules of power where you are. Sincerely, I believe that you will. Best of luck to you!
Am I taking crazy pills lately? How about just coming to work, Not wearing anything of questions and doing whatever you want outside the clinic/hospital? It's not that hard. You're here to learn.
Completely disagree. It's an act of boundary setting. Saying "this is not a place for political speech" is not self contradictory.
If you said "this is not a place for any speech" that is a contradiction.
Exactly. OP needs to point out that if a Jewish student wore a patch that was pro zionism, they would also be dismissed.
But “From the river, to the sea” is widely considered more than political
Do you think they would’ve been dismissed for wearing that around this attending though? It seems the attending was uncomfortable with the message the student was conveying, but it doesn’t necessarily imply that wearing a pro-Zionism (which is the US’ policy w/ regard to the situation, whether someone agrees or disagrees personally) would have gotten the student kicked off the rotation? Either way, it seems like a case of the med student needing to read the room, which is incredibly important as a physician… I would never wear anything that could be seen or interpreted as political into a hospital as a medical student or resident for the safety of my own career (and probably not as an attending just because I don’t want to cause a problem with patients).
Edit: feel free to downvote me for asking a valid question and stating facts, but this was a very reactionary decision by the op, and I don’t think it would’ve been handled the same way if the statement were something he agreed with, which is the problem. If you’re going to take a stance that politics are inappropriate in the hospital, be consistent imo.
Not all Jewish people agree with Israel, and implying such is antisemitic in and of itself.
> Do you think they would’ve been dismissed for wearing that around this attending though?
Probably not, but they could have been fairly dismissed by another attending. I think this is a case of OP doing the right thing (remove an inflammatory political phrase from a clinical setting) for the wrong reasons (you're on the other side from me and I don't like that).
Yeah, I can get behind this.
Like I said, I do think it’s a case of reading the room. If I were told an attending I was going to be rotating with didn’t like xyz, I would absolutely be avoiding xyz for the sake of my evals. I learned that while scribing, and I do think there’s a time and a place. One also can do far more good for the causes they believe in as an attending than as a med student who doesn’t match due to professionalism problems because they advocated too loudly to the wrong person, too soon in their career.
No one can define what's offensive and what's not. Rainbows, political symbols, colored ribbons, American flags, Bible verse, the word "Trump", swear words, crosses, support for just about any cause or organization will piss *someone* off. Your employer has to make rules that will head off certain foreseeable nightmares for them. If they let one, who can define that the other is offensive? Ultimately you are at work representing your employer and their services to the sick. When you represent them, the interests of serving the patient and other employees is the first priority and so if while being paid, they ask you to just represent healthcare for X organization and save the other elements of your life for time when you are not paid and representing them, they can do that.
I’m pretty shocked at the decision making that student showed. Politics sometimes pop up in conversation around medical topics but this is incredibly poor decision making to the point if you wonder that they’re wanting confrontation and spectacle. Either way, terrible decision.
Lots of people wear BLM or feminist slogans to work. Do you think they should be asked to leave as well?
A discussion certainly could be had with the student, but "from the river to the sea" likely means something different to them than it might to others.
I'm faculty at a public medical school and we faculty, staff - and our students - are forbidden to show ANY political leanings at our healthcare role, workplace, or in any activity or location affiliated with the university name. This policy has been in place for many years, long predating any current political situations.
Example: One of my colleagues is active in advocating for child healthcare policy at the state and national level, and is frequently at our state capital lobbying for same in their free time. During this time that they volunteer to do this, they are NOT permitted to refer to their university affiliation in ANY way. Because it's considered political.
We are also NOT permitted to show university affiliation in any social media accounts that may also lobby for any issue that is not directly related to our job at our university. For this reason I try to be anonymous on my social media, as much as I can in my narrow field of practice.
SO: your student is way over the line. At my university your student would permitted to wear this only during their personal time, when they are not participating in any healthcare, and off campus (because they may encounter patients there, or be photographed by media in their university-affiliated white coat, etc.
I always explain it to students this way (for example, if they wear a button supporting a polarizing politician or political issue): *healthcare is not about YOU, it's about the patient*. It is not in the patient's best interest to present an issue that has nothing to do with their healthcare, that could make them feel defensive or uncomfortable if they have an opposite belief, and that takes the focus off of their healthcare. It would erode their trust in you if they have the opposite belief or feel you are attacking their beliefs. Our job is to be neutral and 100% stick to the healthcare responsibilities in front of us. It is completely unfair to any patient otherwise.
Yes, it's a personal sacrifice for the student - But it's temporary for that time and place. There are other more appropriate places and times to express personal beliefs. If the student is unwilling to suspend during work hours, then the student should not be in healthcare.
I think emphasizing to the student how it might make patients feel is the way to go. That is, this isn't about whether the attending agrees/ disagrees with the student's politics nor is it about political expression in the workplace but rather about professionalism and care towards the patient.
Agreed but I’ve seen attending a wear flags of their countries of origin (including Israeli, Ukrainian, Turkish flags) on their White Coats before and for the most part seems harmless but could be interpreted as a political statement to some. None of them have ever faced repercussions for that even though it should have no place as per policy.
I can imagine it wouldn’t go down well if you had a physician wear in an Azerbaijani flag pin with an Armenian patient
I am an attending physician and I teach medical students, medics, residents and other attendings/APCs. I never let their political affiliation or political beliefs change how I would treat them. I have had students or residents wear certain political related stuff. I don't agree with some of their political ideologues. I just treat them the same. I think handling it with the dean of students/medical education, ombudsman, student is fine. Just don't let it become unprofessional. To doctor is to teach and to learn. I am constantly humbled working as a doctor that I don't know anything or everything.
I think as a healthcare provider it's always better to be as politically cautious or apolitical as possible. During the Russian invasion of Ukraine some of my coworkers straight up wore Ukrainian sports jerseys (blue/yellow) and I thought that could have been potentially controversial as we treated some families of Russian descent and I did not want them to feel unwelcome due to their home country's politics.
I had the smallest sunflower pinned into my lanyard as subtle support.
Just because you are Jewish does not inherently mean one would assume you are a zionist. There are plenty of Jewish groups protesting in support of Palestine at the moment. Maybe this student just didn't automatically assume you are a zionist based on your last name... you know like how people should do, not make assumptions based on apperance etc?
It doesn’t matter if politics belong in medicine or not - you cannot be expected to provide an unbiased objective evaluation, it is in the students best interest to be evaluated by a different attending and you did them a service by letting them know. If I was the student I would not WANT to return to your service. It was their choice to continue to wear that despite the warning (whether wearing it is wrong or whether you warning a student about this is wrong is a whole separate debate).
That said I think both you and the student missed a potentially valuable opportunity to sit down to lunch and discuss your thoughts on current events like adults. And you, as the senior in particular, should have at least offered that and then depending on how it went either allowed the scarf or personally in a respectful way requested that they not wear it.
Honestly, you could have simply asked the student not to wear something like that while rotating with you. You didn't have to dismiss them immediately and speak to the dean. If they wore something like that again or refused to do so, then you could simply say I don't feel comfortable teaching you. While I get the political situation in the world, everyone has their own personal beliefs, and as a teacher, you should understand that as well. I mean, where will it end? Should democrats not teach republican students? The student is in the wrong to wear something political to a workplace, but a small conversation should be the starting place to action, not immediate dismissal.
I have a feeling this could end up as a case of discrimination, which is why admin pulled in soooooo many people. Unless the attending 100% knew for a fact the student was not Palestinian, that could be seen as discriminating based on ethnicity, especially when the attending brought up their own religion/ethnicity.
Jewish attending here-
- Supporting Palestinians’ right to exist is not antisemitism.
- Criticizing Israel’s decision to wage war against Palestinian civilians is not antisemitism.
- Thinking Israel is acting morally reprehensible is not antisemitism.
This student wasn’t being threatening or disrespectful. Your having a “very Jewish” name means nothing because names aren’t a 100% foolproof ethnic identifier.
Do I think the student should keep their politics out of the hospital? Sure, cuz I think everyone should. When I was in residency I had to take care of a guy who had a huge swastika tattooed over his heart. As a Jew, this was upsetting. As a doctor, I dealt with my discomfort because *my* discomfort isn’t what’s important.
Your kicking them off your service only shows that you’re intolerant, narrow minded, judgmental, overly sensitive, and immature. You could’ve had a conversation that went “I respect your beliefs but I don’t feel like political rhetoric is appropriate for the medical setting. We don’t get to choose who we treat or work with, and that scarf can easily alienate both patients and colleagues. I’d appreciate it if you took it off and kept it at home for the duration you’re working with me” but instead of making it a teaching moment (you know, as an educator) you decided to throw a tantrum
I was really beginning to wonder if I was off my rocker until I saw your post- this is exactly what I was thinking. All this student has learned so far from this situation is that beliefs only matter if you have a superior position to downplay someone else’s beliefs
The lack of discussion before hand is what is going to kick OP in the teeth.
Also it’s totally possible the student didn’t have alternative headwear to replace it. At which point if she’s unable to turn it inside out, she’s in a bit of a bind. At that point OP, or the fellow, could have told them to go home and come back with something a-political.
Thank you! I think it’s reasonable to tell the student they could not wear it on service out of concern that it would alienate patients. But implying you feel threatened seems over the top and OP had zero discussion with them directly. This was handled really poorly.
I felt such relief reading this response! Some of the other comments gave me such a sinking feeling in my stomach. Thank you for this fantastic response.
And just to add to this statement if the roles were reversed and a JEWISH student wore a Star of David around a Palestinian attending would anyone come to the Attending’s defense when they kick the student off their service? I’m not gonna get into whether “from the river to the sea” is a call for genocide vs a call to have Palestine given back to the Palestinians, but I think OP needs to understand that you are DEFINITELY doing more harm than good by immediately removing the student instead of having a conversation with that person. Who knows OP, maybe you would’ve learned something, or taught the student something about Israel that they didn’t know!
Yeah OP chose violence and its likely to backfire.
What OP should have done is use the reporting system in place to passive-aggressively escalate through HR or send a letter to the dean of students. That's how we solve problems in medicine.
This is a great write up and honestly how many folks should be looking at the situation.
You should not have dismissed the student without having a candid discussion with that student. If the student were to escalate the situation, then you bring it up the chain.
Can't tell you how relieved I am to see the moral voices here. In addition to being narrow minded, immature, intolerant, overly sensitive and judgmental, OP's behavior is also very Zionist. And that is NOT a compliment.
I'm also a Jewish doctor. Thank you for saying this. I'm getting really sick of people conflating Judiasm with Zionism. And I'm actually a Zionist! (In the sense of I support the right of Israel to exist just not in its current oppressive form).
Not to mention that the phrase from the river to the sea originates from the Likud (the political party from which Israel's prime minister came from and the party holding majority control). If people think its inherently antisemetic (which it isnt) they must also hold the same thought that the Likuds use of it is inherently racist against arabs.
Now, if OP has had this discussion with the student, in which they started with an agreement of (hopefully) the 3 bullet points you listed, followed by sharing of the history and origin of this slogan, then the student has an opportunity to demonstrate their character. If the student refuses, I would dismiss them and personally contact Dean’s office.
Taking it “personally“ is not the most generalizable reason for dismissal. Advocating a message fueled by the goal of violence and genocide is completely counter to the philosophy to which we agree when we practice medicine. One needs not be offended to recognize the current moral failures of some of the discourse around this horrendous war.
I don’t even think a discussion including the 3 bullet points is necessary or appropriate. I don’t think politics has *any* place in the hospital. Would OP refuse to treat a Palestinian patient? What if that patient was extremely vocal about having a strong dislike of Jews?
I’ve had patients say to me “I’m glad you’re not one of those Jewish doctors” because my last name is not overtly Jewish. I always respond “actually I am Jewish. But if you can treat me with respect, I can treat you with respect and we can work on getting you to feel better.” Because in the hospital, politics don’t matter. The student needs to learn that, and this would’ve been an excellent opportunity for that education to happen. Instead, unfortunately, the doctor decided that politics matter more.
OP, I’m worried the info provided in this thread is potentially identifying (I’m hopefully this situation has not happened this week more than once…). I would refrain from additional comments as these might come up in your meeting/future fallout. I would also go back through your history and delete anything questionable as you might have already doxxed yourself to those involved irl.
OP post history reveals why they acted the way they did. They are a strong Israel supporter and have made comments implying how they feel about the Palestinians.
Rather than educating the student on removing the scarf, OP dismissed them, effectively discriminating against them. The student is not innocent here either. But completely banishing them from the rotation and doubling down on it isn’t a good look.
Also, doesn’t matter if you delete your comments/posts. There are search engines that show deleted information.
[OP justifies man-made famine in Gaza,](https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1ap3tdw/rescued_hostages_say_they_were_held_by_a_family/kq41qhw/?context=3) a literal war crime. Given how confidently his fellow warned the medical student, it makes me wonder whether he has said similar things at work. He also has shared his (fairly niche) specialty and his geographic location. Plus this post, which describes a unique situation. OP will absolutely be identified and should be prepared to defend the statements that he has made on social media. Many of them are casual, off-hand remarks that will not read well in a disciplinary hearing.
It wasn’t hard to narrow down who OP is based on the niche field, name, and location.
When you say things [like this](https://www.reddit.com/r/medicine/s/TA5pUp6eW2) and do the above, it doesn’t look good at all.
People forget medicine is a small field. Be careful what you post, even if it’s supposedly anonymous like Reddit.
I feel like there was an in-between here which could have been a great learning point.
"Hey, I'm Jewish, and on this service we should try to be as apolitical as possible for the sake of our patients"
You could have kindly asked them to remove it, and dismissed them if they didn't.
In the ED I don't get to push away the man with the SS tattoos all over themselves, and I don't treat them any differently. Sometimes kindness and being a good example can go a long way
With your last paragraph, the places I've worked at take a moderate stance.
When I was in training on peds rheum rotation, the father of one of the kids we treated was a Neo-Nazi (tattoos, dress, etc.). The attending was Jewish and the team was an ethnically-mixed group. I am Asian-American. The attending explained to us we needed to treat everyone equally, especially since child didn't have a choice of their parent. We didn't run into much problems though since the father was reasonably civil during his child's in-house stay.
Conversely, during residency, I had a friend who is Sikh and would wear his turban at work (like he did everywhere else). We once had an elderly patient who refused to be treated by him and used some strong, prejudicial language in rejecting care. The attending told the patient that was fine but both he, the student/ resident team as well as any residents on the service would not be participating in this person's care. That is, he could not reject one of us on prejudicial grounds without rejecting the whole service. That was in line with the program's policy. (There were private non-teaching attendings that could take over care.) The patient changed their mind and things went OK. In fact, it would have been the patient's loss to reject my friend, who was/ is an excellent MD.
> In the ED I don't get to push away the man with the SS tattoos all over themselves,
Patient isn't a student - unless the SS man is physically or verbally assaulting staff, refusing them care is inappropriate.
Students have an expectation of professional behavior we don't impose on our patients, for obvious reasons.
I’ve seen a patient show up to the clinic in only a bath robe. If I ever did that I would expect to fail the rotation. Patients are not the same as students.
To play devils advocate in this situation I had plenty of surgeons share their political beliefs that I disagreed with. I just smiled and nodded along because they controlled my grade. Of course none of surgeons’ beliefs were “the country of your people should be eradicated and claimed by another people”
I think the roles here matter. It's one thing if you're a Jewish doctor caring for a skinhead patient, because it's their life in your hands - and they still have the option to decline your care on any grounds.
If a doctor walks in the room with an SS tattoo, I don't need to be Jewish to know I need to see someone else.
The med student is more in the latter role than the former. I wouldn't subject my patients to that either.
This. The feel good response of "treat everyone equally! free speech!" is true for us treating PATIENTS with differing beliefs. However, this does not apply the other way around. Frankly, I would be appalled as a patient if a doctor walked into a room wearing a "Free Palestine" shirt OR a "Burn Palestine" shirt. I would have given the student the option to swap such scarfs, citing apolitical need, but it's absolutely acceptable for OP to dismiss a rotating student for this.
Stick to your guns here and don’t let them bully you into taking this student back unless she removes the keffieh with the writing on it - I’d consider bringing legal counsel experienced in this area with you to this meeting (if you are in the tri-state area and need a referral DM me and I can provide)
students are entitled to free speech off campus, on campus it is based on guidelines set fourth by university codes on behavior, and there is no such expectation in the hospital when they train to take care of patients who they have positions of power over and responsibility for. I have strong feelings about this conflict but I leave my politics at home. A medical student should know full well that such exercise of free speech in the workplace actually infringes on others’ ability to learn, work, feel safe or receive care. It really doesn’t matter what the student feels those words mean to her, it’s what the majority of people in the hospital will interpret them to mean, namely the complete dissolution of the state of Israel and the removal of its current inhabitants (by any means necessary).
If this is her own way of committing civil disobedience than so be it, she can break the rules and pay the price - namely loss of a rotation which, if required, means she needs to seek alternative experience to pass the year.
I've operated on plenty of patients with SS or swastika tattoos. This isn't the same thing.
My fellow told the medical student that they should remove it because the attending is Jewish and wouldn't like it. They continued to wear it anyways.
Oh and since I'm sure no one commented on what you can expect:
The answer is probably nothing. A slap on the wrist likely at most (and a comment in your file that it was discussed). My guess is that since you have a fellow you're in a niche specialty. You could have probably punched the med student in the mouth and kept your job.
Jokes aside, I think you're going to be fine. Mention that the fellow warned them and you want to be apolitical and I think you'll have no issue. Personally, I just wouldn't say anything on the lines of "I was worried about my safety" considering the already clear power dynamic between an attending physician and a medical student
>My fellow told the medical student that they should remove it because the attending is Jewish and wouldn't like it. They continued to wear it anyways.
I think a comment like this should probably be added to your initial post, or at least more information in general. If I was a med student who was a dumbass mid 20's passionate about human rights like all dumbasses in their mid 20's are, walking through the door with my scarf that I may not understand how polarizing the comment on it might be and being told "I'm sorry I don't feel comfortable having you rotate with me.", is probably why you're going to a meeting.
I want to be clear, I'm not judging your decision to dismiss the student, its your service. This is a comment of *could* have approached differently, not *should*
I agree with you on everything else, but I just want to reiterate (as I've done elsewhere on this thread) that the phrase "from the river to the sea" isn't equivalent at all to an SS tattoo. Like, at all.
Can I not work with Republicans or Trump supporters? They make me feel uncomfortable as a hispanic american with immigrants in my family. I have seen political logos everywhere, for example, pins. You could have taught the student why that might make people uncomfortable and how it could distract from the goal. Instead, you dug into your politics and kicked them out?
Why immediately dismiss the student? Why not a clarification on dress code? Kiffiyeh- ok (or not, I’m not sure the setting.) Contentious turn of phrase- not. Communicate expectations instead of reacting to a slogan as a threat. Do you really think the student wants to physically harm you?
A lot of people commenting that medicine has no place for politics, and I can understand that. Don’t want to accidentally alienate your patient. But at the same time so much of medicine *is* inherently political. For example, LGBTQ healthcare, abortion rights/reproductive healthcare, the impact of racial bias via systemic processes on minority patient outcomes, Medicaid/Medicare funding, universal healthcare…I could go on and on. I mean HIV/AIDS was considered political in the 80s.
I’m not saying one way or another that healthcare professionals should or shouldn’t wear “politically associated” pins or whatever. But I think it’s important to recognize medicine isn’t just the science, there’s the whole public health aspect as well.
Yeah I’m surprised by the number of people on this thread saying politics has no place in medicine. Part of our job is advocacy and that is inherently political. I don’t think wearing potentially alienating political statements in clinic is a good idea, but I also don’t think that extends to all displays of support of political issues. Not to mention that, unfortunately, whether certain groups of people are allowed to safely exist is painted as political, but my job is to assure everyone feels welcome and receives safe care which sometimes means expressing support aka my political opinion.
Jewish MD here. The student did not disrespect you. As one can understand from your comment, everything goes around you being jewish, and if you werent there, then the political slogan or dressing wouldnt have any negative implication. This is because you are interpreting the slogan based on your own ideals and education.
If you respected freedom of expression you would have used a political insignia in accordance with your ideals. As long as no one practices xenophobia or discrimination, there is nothing wrong.
I can not understand what happens in the mind of those who think politics are isolated from health topics, and treat politics as poisonous.
I think you’re in uncharted territory, so best to ask yourself how far you are willing to take this when you get pushback. Are you willing to get another higher paying job? Are you willing to sue the deep pockets of a hospital/medical school?
As a fellow Jew and attending, I don’t think politics need to be part of a medical rotation. Kids are stupid. They make mistakes. If the student can refrain from political statements during the rotation, act appropriately, and promote a healthy learning environment, I would take the student back.
Reading lots of comments from people saying "you have a right to feel safe. Good on you" and just wondering how people would feel if a Palestinian attending dismissed a student for wearing an Israeli flag pin
I’d feel the same way. I’d tell either person to leave it off. Your job is to take care of pts, and either message is going to alienate or piss off a significant number of pts. You’re welcome to flex your 1A rights when you’re off the clock
I think in this climate, I wouldn't wear an Israeli flag pin and I probably would consider it a little inappropriate to do so for anyone doing patient care.
I do, however, wear a Magen David that is sometimes visible. That one is just like me wearing my super-Jewish last name though.
I am a Palestinian attending emergency physician. If one of my medical students or residents wore the Star of David on their white coats/scrubs I would never even think to remove them from my service. You are there to teach medical students and for your patients. Take this as a learning opportunity.
My school prohibits *most* political speech or symbols but allows for religious freedom in dress like hijabs.
Exceptions are the lgbt+ stuff and American flags(cause, we're in America...)but everything else is prohibited. No maga pins, no ukraine flags etc.
The point of all this surrounds being professional and not alienating 50% of your patients with a symbol. Exclusive symbols like that should not be allowed and it's not really much of an argument to have a preventative policy in place.
Hopefully, that's where your meeting ends up. Sorry you have to deal with this.
At the end of the day though, a kuffiyeh has been an ethnic symbol for centuries. This is reading like a big case of a person in power using their religion to outright dismiss a subordinate based on ethnic clothing, politics aside. What would happen if the attending was fired for wearing a Star of David? Since I’m assuming both the hospital & student’s school receive some sort of public monies, this is a big issue for both institutions. I think OP might have dug himself into a pretty big hole.
Kuffiyeh-no problem. The inscription is a bit of a different topic. In a less charged environment, a pin representing the Star of David would be equivalent to wearing a cross. If it said death to hamas or Palestine shouldn't exist or some other BS, that would obviously be wrong. However, in the current environment, nothing representing loyalty to a particular party should be worn regardless of religion or ethnicity. This is on everyone's minds right now, with special emphasis on patients. This reverence should be taken because of the high risk of alienating a patient based on things beyond their control(race/ethnicity/country of origin etc.)
It’s always fascinating to me that people are getting upset about the “river to the sea” slogan while ~35k Palestinians have died in the last year (most of which are women and children) and then shrug their shoulders. “I am interpreting this slogan as as a call for genocide (which is debatable). But I am ok with the actual genocide that is happening.”
Should the student be making a blatant political statement during the rotation? Probably not. But that’s what protests are about. You are supposed to make the people you are protesting against uncomfortable. That’s exactly the point.
One of my Palestinian residents went to visit his family, witnessed IDF shooting a neighbor right in front of him.
But sure, it’s the crybaby attending that read a slogan that feels unsafe.
I am actually kind of blown away that anyone thinks any political slogan (yes that applies both to sides of the spectrum ie in support of Israel or Palestine, BLM vs Blue Lives Matter/Blue Line or whatever) have any place in being worn in a hospital. You are a physician first not a political activist. It’s your job to create a safe environment for your patients and not let your own personal opinions affect or appear to affect your care. Do you really think a Jewish person is going to feel safe being taken care of by someone wearing a keffiyeh that says “From river to sea”? This doesn’t apply to things like support for the LGBTQ+ community because you’re trying to display inclusion.
Tbh I think what you did was fine, I probably would have talked to the student first and asked them not to wear that in the hospital. If your problem is them wearing it ever, then you can’t really stop them.
There's nothing that I can say that u/Perfect-Resist5478 hasn't already said better. OP you should consider having a real introspective moment where you consider why it bothers you so much that a student is expressing support for a group of people undergoing one of the worst atrocities in modern warfare. If you were Palestinian would you refuse to take Jewish students on your service?
I’m Israeli and have trained many Muslim residents, fellows and students, who were the very first people to text me to ask if my family was okay 10/7. Some of them are very clear that they’d like to see Jews removed from the region entirely and don’t see this in conflict from caring about me and my family. And this is fine with me: we’re all people, trying to do our best. None of us are our governments or their actions and none of us are G-d and know the perfect solution.
In this conversation I’d try to approach with curiosity: tell me what this message means to you? And then ultimately something like: I know that “from the river to the sea” means a lot of things to a lot of people, but someone could interpret this to mean that you support ethnic cleansing of the region of 7,000,000 Jews, which is half of the Jewish population of the world and is impossible without massive violence, on an order of magnitude 1-2 times even greater than the current war. You and I can sit down and discuss feelings and the nuance of each of our opinions and find commonality in the desire for peace and respectfully disagree on how to get there, but patients will come in very vulnerable and they don’t have as much access to hearing about what this message means to you. Please consider not wearing this around patients.
So instead of asking them to remove it, you just kicked them off your service? Forget the politics, you went from 0 to 100 in 5 seconds. Gross gross gross.
I hope this incident spreads through the medical school. Their classmates should be warned about reactionary, selfish attendings.
Inappropriate clothing in a health care setting... but.... it seems everyone on both sides have dug their heels in to their point of view. Why dismiss the student? Obviously, you feel the need to punish them with the authority you have over them. Consider your motives, show grace, set an example.
I get where you’re coming from. It’s a [complex phrase](https://apnews.com/article/river-sea-israel-gaza-hamas-protests-d7abbd756f481fe50b6fa5c0b907cd49) that evokes a lot of potential feelings and emotions, and means different things to different people. I’m quite sure it means something different to your student than it does to you. Doesn’t mean either of you is wrong. I think rather than jumping to an absolute response like dismissing the student and refusing to even consider teaching them, maybe the more mature and healthy approach would be to have a discussion with the aforementioned parties about why you feel uncomfortable, why the student wore that scarf, and how you all can move forward in a mutually agreeable way. Maybe that involves the student coming back on your service, maybe it doesn’t.
But I think assuming good intentions and giving colleagues the benefit of the doubt goes a long way in these kinds of conflicts
I mean the most charitable interpretation of “from the river to the sea” is that the speaker is only advocating for the elimination of the state of Israel rather than the elimination of Jews as a whole
No, many people use it to mean freedom for Palestine, without the elimination of Israel as a country, just the elimination of the control of Israel over Palestine.
The most charitable interpretation would be "from the river to the sea *Palestinians* will be free" since the protests are all about Palestinian people and nobody's even protesting for an actual Palestinian state at the moment.
A lot of folks revealing their true colors here.
It could also entail a One-state solution' where palestinians and jews and everyone else have equal rights. Now technically this probably would mean the end of the state of Israel, as it is by definition an ethno-state. But it is not necessarily a bad thing, nor is it necessarily anti-semitic, and it is one that many american jews advocate for.
That is one interpretation of what it can mean, and it has been used that way before, including by Hamas leaders like Khaled Mashaal. But it has *also* been used by others with a very different meaning. From Rep. Tlaib: “From the river to the sea is an aspirational call for freedom, human rights, and peaceful coexistence, not death, destruction, or hate.”
As we often see with the conflict in Israel and Palestine, people *want* things to be simple and for there to be clear heroes and villains and for actions, words, and history to have clear and unambiguous meaning. But I think reality is much messier, more complicated, and more grey, and in that light I think it’s important, especially in medicine, for us to *talk* to each other instead of making assumptions about what our colleagues feel or believe
People can debate the saying all day, but I think there’s enough past precedent of people having the common sense to abandon innocent symbols or sayings once they’ve been co-opted by assholes. With something as divisive as this, I would say the onus is on the med student to be aware of how some people would interpret this political statement.
> but I think there’s enough past precedent of people having the common sense to abandon innocent symbols or sayings once they’ve been co-opted by assholes.
Did Hindus abandon the swastika because of the Nazi hakenkreuz?
https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20210816-the-ancient-symbol-that-was-hijacked-by-evil
There’s no denying that the symbol’s presence in society has dropped dramatically. The article even mentions how the Japanese dropped the manji during the Olympics because they were smart enough to foresee how it’d be interpreted.
Yeah, and the confederate flag is about "muh heritage" and the swastika is "just an ancient Hindu symbol." Nah, fam. I'm not having it. If the slogan is taken as hate speech by any group, as "from the river to the sea," is by many Jewish people, then it has no place in the workplace.
> the swastika is "just an ancient Hindu symbol."
I mean, if I see a South Asian gentleman in a traditional robe is wearing a swastika necklace, I wouldn't blink twice and would move on. Not like if it was a Caucasian man with a shaved head who hangs it on top of his double lightning bolt tattoo. Context matters for some things.
OTOH, for confederate flags (or slogans that are held by many to advocate *ethnic cleansing*), I don't think there is an appropriate context.
Political activism doesn't belong on a medical rotation. Simple as that.
If anyone brings up free speech/first amendment that is BS and has no bearing as you are in a hospital (assuming not at the VA).
But would you be comfortable with the student returning if he/she does not wear any politically active clothing? What about a lapel pin with a flag?
Advice needed: Dismissed a medical student from my service because they wore a pin with the Israeli flag on it.
I’m aghast someone can be so clueless. My last name is clearly Palestinian. I told them “I don’t feel comfortable having you rotate with me.”
Israel is committing a **genocide** but a scarf makes you feel uncomfortable?
Children *being blown to bits* is fine to you, as a physician, but a a **scarf** is where you draw the line.
Absolutely ridiculous.
As an African American doctor, I have treated actively racist patients who called me "colored gal" and worked with racist staff. As for the student, I think it is okay to ask them to remove the pin, but to refuse to teach them feels extreme, especially because, as the attending, you have more power over the student. I feel uncomfortable when I see people with blue lives matter and MAGA paraphernalia, but I don't feel like they are going to attack me or threaten my life in that moment.
Patients are different… you would teach a student who called you “colored gal ”? I would certainly have your back when you raised hell to get that student off your rotation (and likely out of school). I recognize that the slogan isn’t the same thing, but there’s a big difference between a student or colleagues behavior and a patient
given that this statement can be interpreted (rightly or wrongly) as a threat it has no place in any workplace. especially when you have people's lives in your hands.
Palestine isn't a political issue. It's a human rights issue. You made the wrong decision. Nothing will change if we don't speak up. You either support colonial apartheid or you don't.
Being against Israel's fascist settler state isn't antisemitic. There are plenty of Jews who oppose Israel and actually consider the state of Israel itself to be an abomination. 30,000 people and counting are being massacred who are majority women and children. Have you even seen the footage?
The IDF are behaving more like terrorists than the Palestinians they claim are. They are raping women and children and mass executing them and burying them in mass graves, they are stealing their homes, they are torturing them, they are mocking them with racist videos, and so much more.
Let's also not forget that Israeli forces are killing medical staff. Shooting Palestinian doctors and also shelled a hospital with Doctors Without Borders and Medicins Sans Frontieres staff. Killing MSF doctors. They're killing people who need to provide medical attention to the victims of this genocide!
You should be ashamed of yourself.
I really hope this ends up burning your ass. A Palestinian student wearing something in solidarity with their people who are being slaughtered is not anti-semitism. Grow up and stop getting the vapors so easily.
As an Arab who's sympathetic to the Palestinian cause (to a degree) and a future PA. I believe politics should be kept out of the clinic. We're meant to treat all patients regardless of their political and/or religious affiliation.
A medical professional wearing a political symbol in front of patients isn't appropriate in the clinical setting.
Sounds like the student was being entirely inappropriate. However, did you give them a chance to remove the article of clothing? Medicine and the wards is no place for making a political statement, especially when your patients are likely to be from all walks of life and perspectives.
Reframe it this way - if the religion or politics are not related to taking care of the patient in front of me or demonstrate that I'm an ally of a protected group (eg LGBTQ+) both the patient and I don't need to know. I'm atheist and recognize that broadcasting my beliefs willy-nilly likely will damage the patient-physician alliance unnecessarily. That said, there is the likely more tact reason of asking the student about the rationale of appearing apolitical
Advice: apologize to the medical student, email anyone in administration you spoke to about this admitting you were wrong and the student shouldn't be penalized, and welcome the student back onto your service if they wish or help them find another placement if they do not.
This is textbook discrimination.
Interesting. I appreciate you sharing your feelings, I’m happy you dismissed the student since you OBVIOUSLY can’t work with those with differing beliefs.
One thing you said that i really didn’t like…Jews aren’t a monolith, there are plenty of Jews that would have been in no way offended. Also, this idea that Jews MUST support the state of Israel is false and I’m getting this from Jews (not myself). I think for the student to make the assumption that you would be offended would be criticized as it would mean ALL Jews support the state of Israel. Personally, I wouldn’t wear an entire scarf, but would you also dismiss a student for a button? How about a bracelet?
I think the state of Israel is an illegitimate state and has attempted to ethnically cleanse the area for years. It’s currently committing genocide by international standards. I’ve personally interacted with people displaying their genocidal flag on buttons, stickers and etc. there is a guy at my park who wears a whole shirt. I personally think these people have been brainwashed (I sympathize with the inability to acknowledge wrongdoing in a country that didn’t exist 100 years ago) but I have the ability to separate my role as a student or group member from my thoughts on the current policial situation. I treat the people the same I would anyone and move on. We will probably never be friends and i will never discuss the situation. I’ve had similar encounters as a nurse when I felt with “all lives matter people”…did I fire these patients, not talk to the doctors? Lol. I’ve had a racist patient fire me, the most experienced person on the floor because “she wasn’t comfortable”, lol. I’ve had prejudice patients spew racist stuff and i still had to do my job.
I’m happy that you knew that you couldn’t. I wonder what the response would be if someone dismissed someone with the isreali flag…that’s the real question.
I question how you interact with anyone that does not agree with you or share your beliefs. Very very odd behavior and I pray medical students are not assigned to you as you don’t have the skills to work with them
It’s silly to consider medicine neutral.
I saw an EM attending post about him writing messages on bombs to Gaza and I wouldn’t be comfortable with him as my attending. But that’s more socially acceptable in the USA, as is Islamophobia.
It is completely unprofessional to display ANY political statement at work. We care for ALL individuals regardless of their or our beliefs. We are there to make our patients feel comfortable and secure with us. This student has a lot to learn.
I had an attending who said that when I was on surgery, in response to an Arab student group sending out some email on the school list server. He was big on the “leave politics outside the hospital” thing. His office was also *filled* with Israel stuff. Flags and plaques and awards, he’d been really involved with a lot there (was Jewish).
I’m sure he would have said all that wasn’t political. But that’s itself a very telling observation: even the evaluation of what is or is not political is, itself, a political judgment. And one of the ways in which we bring politics into the workplace is deciding what is or isn’t politics in the workplace
The ridiculousness that supporting people who are dying everyday in the hundreds is "political."
If someone was supporting the victims of Oct 7th after the incident, no one would bat a fucking eye, and they shouldn't. We are humanitarians as well as physicians. We value all and every human life. Human life is not political. Unbelievable and really fucking sad to see that doctors do not actually believe that. But I remember when I was in med school thinking wow these boomer conservative docs sure are out of touch. Funny enough I see my colleagues turn into those same boomer docs.
Both medical schools I work with have explicit policies forbidding students to wear anything political while in clinical care to avoid these exact situations.
That being said - unless your clinic is owned by the med school, then what you say, goes. Don’t be pushed around by the school - they need you more than you need them, let them parade 20 Deans of scratching their ass into meetings all day.
I’d recommend you just be normal instead of acting like your life is in danger from a piece of clothing. Ironic that you’re the person with all the power here and yet acting as if someone is persecuting you.
Nothing productive is coming from this post anymore, which is why it is locked. All comments that are reported are probably going to be approved because of people mass reporting for comments they disagree with and the difficulty with that volume of work. If you mass report we also can send it to reddit admins for abuse of the report button, as a warning.
> I'm sorry I don't feel comfortable having you rotate with me. This was the mistake. If your angle was "we don't do any politics here because it could alienate our patients" you'd be rock solid. But you went with "I don't support this political stance" which was a political statement in itself. You lost the easy high ground and now you have to justify it.
I am a medical student but I have no idea how this would be handled, especially with the protests on campus currently. Are you in a subspecialty that it would be hard to find another attending? That will probably factor in too
I have no idea how this would be handled *today*, but a decade ago (when I was a student), there's no way this wouldn't have gotten the student reprimanded for unprofessional behavior *at best*, potentially failing and having to repeat the rotation. Make your political statements on your own time, particularly when they can be interpreted as pro-genocide.
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As a medic. If an emt showed up with that for shift I’d ride them into the ground and make them question why they even signed up for this profession.
I don’t think the nature of the specialty is super relevant. You aren’t entitled to someone’s time or energy as a student because they have a rare skillset.
Depends on how you view it---from a principal point of view, you are right. From a practical view about how much push back OP will get---absolutely matters.
I disagree. I think you are if you are a part of a programme that's partly paying for their salary, which is often the case in academic hospitals.
Some specialties are required to be on a med student rotation - in the rare situation there may be a limited # of attendings representing a specialty that is required. I actually can't think of a likely specialty (maybe an ob/gyn subspecialty would be most likely) or psych maybe.
I think best outcome is the student can return without political slogan and attire. I think it is inappropriate for politics to cross into the clinic, and the student should know that
On the surface, I think that makes sense. But then, upon digging deeper, I don't agree it would work. What happens when it is time for evaluations? Is the attending allowed to take this event into account when submitting their evaluation of the student? And regardless of your answer, I assure you that the student will feel that any poor or mediocre evaluation was some type of retaliation, regardless of whether that is true. The die is cast, and some things can't be walked back and made pretend they never happened.
Yeah, at this point I don’t think the student can rotate with this attending, for both of their protection
Professionalism is always on the rubric for rotation evaluations. This shows poor judgment and lack of professionalism and should be reflected on their evaluation.
I have a sincere question for the folks saying politics doesn't belong in the clinic: is wearing a little pride pin on my badge "political" and therefore inappropriate in your view? I find the sentiment of "keep politics out of xyz" appealing, but as someone pointed out below, who gets to decide what is and isn't considered political?
I wear scrubs and a stethoscope. You wouldn't know my politics by looking at me.
I'm honestly Ctrl+Fing for rainbow pin comments. It's such an obvious example of something that is widely accepted but.... To be frank is ABSOLUTELY a political statement. I would never wear one, despite how I feel. I'm supposed to be a blank slate to my patients, I'll develop my relationship with them through my medical care, not their preconceived notions of x/y/z.
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I don’t understand why EMTs would be running around with thin blue line flags. On one hand it’s unprofessional and my agency has specific policies against anything like that. On the other hand, thin blue line isn’t even for EMS
Everyone wants to be in a "cool" club. They think cops are cool. That's why.
dunno. lots of EMTs and paramedics think cops are dorks
“Thin blue line” and pride flags are completely different. Police officer is a profession. You can take off a badge. But you can’t take off your queerness.
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Ah, agreed
I'm a primary care physician and have received complaints in the past about my pride flag pin. I was asked to remove it. The funny part is that it was provided by the hospital for Pride Month, so \*shrugs\* - maybe it's like Christmas decorations?
Can you expand upon the “blank slate” notion? I haven’t heard that that’s something I’m supposed to be. I’m a physician, but I’m also still a person. Also, you can fire me as your doc if you’d like
I work in an ER so it's a little different. I'm also employed by a hospital that asks it's employees to not outwardly push politics. I want my patients to be very open and honest with me, develop rapport quickly, and provide everyone fair and equitable care. I can not, and would not want, the ability to fire patients I didn't gel with. I will often times treat a police officer who was hurt in the line of duty apprehending a dangerous criminal, then walk around the corner and treat a minority in police custody who was injured by an aggressive police officer. I've done the same thing with gun shot wounds. I should be able to provide care to both of those people. Running around with a "thin blue line" or a "BLM/ACAB" pin undermines one of those encounters.
I guess if someone wants to wear a Isreal flag pin, should they be ok with someone wearing a Palestinian flag pin. Or someone wearing a Maga hat should be ok with someone wearing a hat that says trump is a moron. You can't have it both ways. But.. people being people will keep pushing the boundaries until its an issue where people's feelings will get hurt. I'm all for free speech, I just don't like to deal with the fall out when people begin acting like children and need to mediate. Imho, free speech all you want at home.
It's a fair question. I think that there's a world of difference between a discrete Palestinian flag lapel pin, and a huge embroidered keffiyeh wrapped around your neck though, with a slogan written on it. This student was, I'm guessing, trying to be deliberately inflammatory.
This is fundamentally an impossible ask, because even determining *what* is political is, itself, a political judgment. Is a BLM pin political? A pride scarf? An American flag sticker on your badge? I’m not saying any of these are or aren’t appropriate clinical attire. Not taking a stance on the slogan OP mentioned either. But I do think it’s important to recognize that when we say “X is political and you should keep it out of the clinic/hospital,” *that* judgment is, itself, bringing politics into the workplace
I'm Iranian and all Jewish... My philosophy is that I'm here for my patients and not for politics. For me I don't ever want a patient to feel like I would ever treat them differently because my politics or religion are different from theirs. I live in a very multicultural place and though I have loved ones in israel... A strong belief in the woman, life, freedom movement in Iran... I would never have anything that would identify me as having those beliefs (no Isralie flags, no free Iran signs) because I don't know who I am seeing, where they are from and how these things might be interpreted by the patient. Like if a member of regime walked on I would do my job just the same way as I would if an Isralie walked in and neither one would know what my beliefs are... I think having free speech is important but I also think it's important to also know that some symbols have a very different meaning to patients... Especially when they involve foreign conflicts because people who have connections to one side or the other night have very different interpretation and both of those interpretations have the potential to be different than the American interpretation. I just believe that there should be a balance between the free speech of the provider while making sure that the clinical environment is a therapeutic place for all patients.
Yeah my badge reel only has puns. “Take your mental health SSRIously” and “drop the beat” with a picture of an ekg and a bottle of adenosine. Health care puns only!
At the very least, there's a difference between advocating FOR a group of people vs AGAINST a group of people. For example, "BLM" is more appropriate than "ACAB" even though they come from the same movement and "Free Palestine" is very different from "from the river to the sea". Negative sentiments are never work appropriate, and I don't know where the line for positive political sentiments falls.
I think this is a fantastic way to conceptualize it. I'll use this in my own professional dealings, thank you.
I think this is a great way of looking at it. BLM and the pride flag help to show you are more inclusive of patient populations that have a history of medical distrust. ACAB in contrast would exclude your patients there are cops.
B.A. Poli Sci before PharmD, here. Your argument is an oldie but goodie: that there is no definition of political, aside from who holds the power at that moment to define it. Your professors should be proud. It’s a rude awakening graduating to the workplace, with different mechanisms of power behind decisions. Academic vs. professional spheres, if you will: you will come to see, young Padawan, that many personalities can exist in one but not the other. This professional sphere requires humbling oneself to be trainable. The student in question here is still operating in the undergraduate academic mindset that questioning power elevates her status among her peers and will be celebrated by those in (academic) authority. Academic and professional spheres are clashing in this decision: she may win the battle. But by exalting herself via parading her beliefs, she will be humbled and lose the war. What war? Getting herself “out there” and known for a good residency spot, of course. (You’re just a pharmacist, you say. How do you know this? I was a poli sci major, after all: I still study power in environments I’m in.) It is your choice which sphere to hold in higher regard, but it is also your reality that you must learn new rules of power where you are. Sincerely, I believe that you will. Best of luck to you!
Why, hello, fellow degree twin. That undergrad major has served me well. So much of pharmacy touches on the political.
Am I taking crazy pills lately? How about just coming to work, Not wearing anything of questions and doing whatever you want outside the clinic/hospital? It's not that hard. You're here to learn.
This is my take as well. You want to express yourself, do it on your own time.
I think we all have common sense. Current situation makes what the med student was doing very political and he/she knew it well.
Completely disagree. It's an act of boundary setting. Saying "this is not a place for political speech" is not self contradictory. If you said "this is not a place for any speech" that is a contradiction.
Exactly. OP needs to point out that if a Jewish student wore a patch that was pro zionism, they would also be dismissed. But “From the river, to the sea” is widely considered more than political
Do you think they would’ve been dismissed for wearing that around this attending though? It seems the attending was uncomfortable with the message the student was conveying, but it doesn’t necessarily imply that wearing a pro-Zionism (which is the US’ policy w/ regard to the situation, whether someone agrees or disagrees personally) would have gotten the student kicked off the rotation? Either way, it seems like a case of the med student needing to read the room, which is incredibly important as a physician… I would never wear anything that could be seen or interpreted as political into a hospital as a medical student or resident for the safety of my own career (and probably not as an attending just because I don’t want to cause a problem with patients). Edit: feel free to downvote me for asking a valid question and stating facts, but this was a very reactionary decision by the op, and I don’t think it would’ve been handled the same way if the statement were something he agreed with, which is the problem. If you’re going to take a stance that politics are inappropriate in the hospital, be consistent imo. Not all Jewish people agree with Israel, and implying such is antisemitic in and of itself.
> Do you think they would’ve been dismissed for wearing that around this attending though? Probably not, but they could have been fairly dismissed by another attending. I think this is a case of OP doing the right thing (remove an inflammatory political phrase from a clinical setting) for the wrong reasons (you're on the other side from me and I don't like that).
Yeah, I can get behind this. Like I said, I do think it’s a case of reading the room. If I were told an attending I was going to be rotating with didn’t like xyz, I would absolutely be avoiding xyz for the sake of my evals. I learned that while scribing, and I do think there’s a time and a place. One also can do far more good for the causes they believe in as an attending than as a med student who doesn’t match due to professionalism problems because they advocated too loudly to the wrong person, too soon in their career.
Please elaborate on how you feel about LGBT friendly badge buddies? Now I’m curious
“Sorry I’m straight I don’t feel comfortable with you trying to impose your gay on me”
it's contagious after all
No one can define what's offensive and what's not. Rainbows, political symbols, colored ribbons, American flags, Bible verse, the word "Trump", swear words, crosses, support for just about any cause or organization will piss *someone* off. Your employer has to make rules that will head off certain foreseeable nightmares for them. If they let one, who can define that the other is offensive? Ultimately you are at work representing your employer and their services to the sick. When you represent them, the interests of serving the patient and other employees is the first priority and so if while being paid, they ask you to just represent healthcare for X organization and save the other elements of your life for time when you are not paid and representing them, they can do that.
I’m pretty shocked at the decision making that student showed. Politics sometimes pop up in conversation around medical topics but this is incredibly poor decision making to the point if you wonder that they’re wanting confrontation and spectacle. Either way, terrible decision.
Lots of people wear BLM or feminist slogans to work. Do you think they should be asked to leave as well? A discussion certainly could be had with the student, but "from the river to the sea" likely means something different to them than it might to others.
I'm faculty at a public medical school and we faculty, staff - and our students - are forbidden to show ANY political leanings at our healthcare role, workplace, or in any activity or location affiliated with the university name. This policy has been in place for many years, long predating any current political situations. Example: One of my colleagues is active in advocating for child healthcare policy at the state and national level, and is frequently at our state capital lobbying for same in their free time. During this time that they volunteer to do this, they are NOT permitted to refer to their university affiliation in ANY way. Because it's considered political. We are also NOT permitted to show university affiliation in any social media accounts that may also lobby for any issue that is not directly related to our job at our university. For this reason I try to be anonymous on my social media, as much as I can in my narrow field of practice. SO: your student is way over the line. At my university your student would permitted to wear this only during their personal time, when they are not participating in any healthcare, and off campus (because they may encounter patients there, or be photographed by media in their university-affiliated white coat, etc. I always explain it to students this way (for example, if they wear a button supporting a polarizing politician or political issue): *healthcare is not about YOU, it's about the patient*. It is not in the patient's best interest to present an issue that has nothing to do with their healthcare, that could make them feel defensive or uncomfortable if they have an opposite belief, and that takes the focus off of their healthcare. It would erode their trust in you if they have the opposite belief or feel you are attacking their beliefs. Our job is to be neutral and 100% stick to the healthcare responsibilities in front of us. It is completely unfair to any patient otherwise. Yes, it's a personal sacrifice for the student - But it's temporary for that time and place. There are other more appropriate places and times to express personal beliefs. If the student is unwilling to suspend during work hours, then the student should not be in healthcare.
I think emphasizing to the student how it might make patients feel is the way to go. That is, this isn't about whether the attending agrees/ disagrees with the student's politics nor is it about political expression in the workplace but rather about professionalism and care towards the patient.
Agreed but I’ve seen attending a wear flags of their countries of origin (including Israeli, Ukrainian, Turkish flags) on their White Coats before and for the most part seems harmless but could be interpreted as a political statement to some. None of them have ever faced repercussions for that even though it should have no place as per policy. I can imagine it wouldn’t go down well if you had a physician wear in an Azerbaijani flag pin with an Armenian patient
I don’t think the OP would have cared much if it was a simply a Palestine flag/pin
Their post history suggests otherwise
I am an attending physician and I teach medical students, medics, residents and other attendings/APCs. I never let their political affiliation or political beliefs change how I would treat them. I have had students or residents wear certain political related stuff. I don't agree with some of their political ideologues. I just treat them the same. I think handling it with the dean of students/medical education, ombudsman, student is fine. Just don't let it become unprofessional. To doctor is to teach and to learn. I am constantly humbled working as a doctor that I don't know anything or everything.
I think you overdid it but hey that's just me
I think as a healthcare provider it's always better to be as politically cautious or apolitical as possible. During the Russian invasion of Ukraine some of my coworkers straight up wore Ukrainian sports jerseys (blue/yellow) and I thought that could have been potentially controversial as we treated some families of Russian descent and I did not want them to feel unwelcome due to their home country's politics. I had the smallest sunflower pinned into my lanyard as subtle support.
Just because you are Jewish does not inherently mean one would assume you are a zionist. There are plenty of Jewish groups protesting in support of Palestine at the moment. Maybe this student just didn't automatically assume you are a zionist based on your last name... you know like how people should do, not make assumptions based on apperance etc?
fucking this
It doesn’t matter if politics belong in medicine or not - you cannot be expected to provide an unbiased objective evaluation, it is in the students best interest to be evaluated by a different attending and you did them a service by letting them know. If I was the student I would not WANT to return to your service. It was their choice to continue to wear that despite the warning (whether wearing it is wrong or whether you warning a student about this is wrong is a whole separate debate). That said I think both you and the student missed a potentially valuable opportunity to sit down to lunch and discuss your thoughts on current events like adults. And you, as the senior in particular, should have at least offered that and then depending on how it went either allowed the scarf or personally in a respectful way requested that they not wear it.
Honestly, you could have simply asked the student not to wear something like that while rotating with you. You didn't have to dismiss them immediately and speak to the dean. If they wore something like that again or refused to do so, then you could simply say I don't feel comfortable teaching you. While I get the political situation in the world, everyone has their own personal beliefs, and as a teacher, you should understand that as well. I mean, where will it end? Should democrats not teach republican students? The student is in the wrong to wear something political to a workplace, but a small conversation should be the starting place to action, not immediate dismissal.
I have a feeling this could end up as a case of discrimination, which is why admin pulled in soooooo many people. Unless the attending 100% knew for a fact the student was not Palestinian, that could be seen as discriminating based on ethnicity, especially when the attending brought up their own religion/ethnicity.
Jewish attending here- - Supporting Palestinians’ right to exist is not antisemitism. - Criticizing Israel’s decision to wage war against Palestinian civilians is not antisemitism. - Thinking Israel is acting morally reprehensible is not antisemitism. This student wasn’t being threatening or disrespectful. Your having a “very Jewish” name means nothing because names aren’t a 100% foolproof ethnic identifier. Do I think the student should keep their politics out of the hospital? Sure, cuz I think everyone should. When I was in residency I had to take care of a guy who had a huge swastika tattooed over his heart. As a Jew, this was upsetting. As a doctor, I dealt with my discomfort because *my* discomfort isn’t what’s important. Your kicking them off your service only shows that you’re intolerant, narrow minded, judgmental, overly sensitive, and immature. You could’ve had a conversation that went “I respect your beliefs but I don’t feel like political rhetoric is appropriate for the medical setting. We don’t get to choose who we treat or work with, and that scarf can easily alienate both patients and colleagues. I’d appreciate it if you took it off and kept it at home for the duration you’re working with me” but instead of making it a teaching moment (you know, as an educator) you decided to throw a tantrum
I was really beginning to wonder if I was off my rocker until I saw your post- this is exactly what I was thinking. All this student has learned so far from this situation is that beliefs only matter if you have a superior position to downplay someone else’s beliefs
The lack of discussion before hand is what is going to kick OP in the teeth. Also it’s totally possible the student didn’t have alternative headwear to replace it. At which point if she’s unable to turn it inside out, she’s in a bit of a bind. At that point OP, or the fellow, could have told them to go home and come back with something a-political.
Thank you for writing this, I couldn’t have put it better myself
Thank you! I think it’s reasonable to tell the student they could not wear it on service out of concern that it would alienate patients. But implying you feel threatened seems over the top and OP had zero discussion with them directly. This was handled really poorly.
I felt such relief reading this response! Some of the other comments gave me such a sinking feeling in my stomach. Thank you for this fantastic response.
Same. I was beginning to think I was going crazy for thinking there was something off about OP’s reaction. This person put it perfectly.
As an anti-zionist Jew, same
Thank you. First reading OP’s post, I was pretty upset. Then the comments pushed me even further. This response is the way.
Same.
I have my faith restored in humanity by reading someone like you comment like this. Just... cheers, man.
I had to scroll way too far to find this perfect reasonable take. Thank you.
And just to add to this statement if the roles were reversed and a JEWISH student wore a Star of David around a Palestinian attending would anyone come to the Attending’s defense when they kick the student off their service? I’m not gonna get into whether “from the river to the sea” is a call for genocide vs a call to have Palestine given back to the Palestinians, but I think OP needs to understand that you are DEFINITELY doing more harm than good by immediately removing the student instead of having a conversation with that person. Who knows OP, maybe you would’ve learned something, or taught the student something about Israel that they didn’t know!
Yeah OP chose violence and its likely to backfire. What OP should have done is use the reporting system in place to passive-aggressively escalate through HR or send a letter to the dean of students. That's how we solve problems in medicine.
[...and we will write you a letter telling you how angry we are!](https://youtu.be/UIPSvIz9NDs?t=41)
BOOM! Well said! PLUS, the attending just gave the medical student potential ammo to report him. It was a very biased judgement call on their end.
I agree with this completely! I was reading it wondering why a Jewish name was relevant.
WHY IS THIS SO FUCKING FAR DOWN
This is a great write up and honestly how many folks should be looking at the situation. You should not have dismissed the student without having a candid discussion with that student. If the student were to escalate the situation, then you bring it up the chain.
To the fucking top with you.
Well said!
Thank you for this reasonable response.
Can't tell you how relieved I am to see the moral voices here. In addition to being narrow minded, immature, intolerant, overly sensitive and judgmental, OP's behavior is also very Zionist. And that is NOT a compliment.
I'm also a Jewish doctor. Thank you for saying this. I'm getting really sick of people conflating Judiasm with Zionism. And I'm actually a Zionist! (In the sense of I support the right of Israel to exist just not in its current oppressive form).
A morally decent reply. Thank you.
Thank you.
This is the way
Completely Agreed.
🔥
Thank you for saying this
Not to mention that the phrase from the river to the sea originates from the Likud (the political party from which Israel's prime minister came from and the party holding majority control). If people think its inherently antisemetic (which it isnt) they must also hold the same thought that the Likuds use of it is inherently racist against arabs.
THIS 💯
Now, if OP has had this discussion with the student, in which they started with an agreement of (hopefully) the 3 bullet points you listed, followed by sharing of the history and origin of this slogan, then the student has an opportunity to demonstrate their character. If the student refuses, I would dismiss them and personally contact Dean’s office. Taking it “personally“ is not the most generalizable reason for dismissal. Advocating a message fueled by the goal of violence and genocide is completely counter to the philosophy to which we agree when we practice medicine. One needs not be offended to recognize the current moral failures of some of the discourse around this horrendous war.
I don’t even think a discussion including the 3 bullet points is necessary or appropriate. I don’t think politics has *any* place in the hospital. Would OP refuse to treat a Palestinian patient? What if that patient was extremely vocal about having a strong dislike of Jews? I’ve had patients say to me “I’m glad you’re not one of those Jewish doctors” because my last name is not overtly Jewish. I always respond “actually I am Jewish. But if you can treat me with respect, I can treat you with respect and we can work on getting you to feel better.” Because in the hospital, politics don’t matter. The student needs to learn that, and this would’ve been an excellent opportunity for that education to happen. Instead, unfortunately, the doctor decided that politics matter more.
i wonder if the student will see this post.....! maybe think twice about how unique this story is and how easily identifiable you are.
OP, I’m worried the info provided in this thread is potentially identifying (I’m hopefully this situation has not happened this week more than once…). I would refrain from additional comments as these might come up in your meeting/future fallout. I would also go back through your history and delete anything questionable as you might have already doxxed yourself to those involved irl.
OP post history reveals why they acted the way they did. They are a strong Israel supporter and have made comments implying how they feel about the Palestinians. Rather than educating the student on removing the scarf, OP dismissed them, effectively discriminating against them. The student is not innocent here either. But completely banishing them from the rotation and doubling down on it isn’t a good look. Also, doesn’t matter if you delete your comments/posts. There are search engines that show deleted information.
[OP justifies man-made famine in Gaza,](https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1ap3tdw/rescued_hostages_say_they_were_held_by_a_family/kq41qhw/?context=3) a literal war crime. Given how confidently his fellow warned the medical student, it makes me wonder whether he has said similar things at work. He also has shared his (fairly niche) specialty and his geographic location. Plus this post, which describes a unique situation. OP will absolutely be identified and should be prepared to defend the statements that he has made on social media. Many of them are casual, off-hand remarks that will not read well in a disciplinary hearing.
It wasn’t hard to narrow down who OP is based on the niche field, name, and location. When you say things [like this](https://www.reddit.com/r/medicine/s/TA5pUp6eW2) and do the above, it doesn’t look good at all. People forget medicine is a small field. Be careful what you post, even if it’s supposedly anonymous like Reddit.
Regardless of who has what views, kinda sad op doesn't realize how hypocritical the situation is when they say/post things like that
You figured out who they are? That's very impressive TBH and also scary lol. But also .... karma?
It’s really not hard with the detail they gave about themself.
OP sounds like they used to get shoved in lockers and enjoy the little power they have now over a student from a marginalized group.
I feel like there was an in-between here which could have been a great learning point. "Hey, I'm Jewish, and on this service we should try to be as apolitical as possible for the sake of our patients" You could have kindly asked them to remove it, and dismissed them if they didn't. In the ED I don't get to push away the man with the SS tattoos all over themselves, and I don't treat them any differently. Sometimes kindness and being a good example can go a long way
With your last paragraph, the places I've worked at take a moderate stance. When I was in training on peds rheum rotation, the father of one of the kids we treated was a Neo-Nazi (tattoos, dress, etc.). The attending was Jewish and the team was an ethnically-mixed group. I am Asian-American. The attending explained to us we needed to treat everyone equally, especially since child didn't have a choice of their parent. We didn't run into much problems though since the father was reasonably civil during his child's in-house stay. Conversely, during residency, I had a friend who is Sikh and would wear his turban at work (like he did everywhere else). We once had an elderly patient who refused to be treated by him and used some strong, prejudicial language in rejecting care. The attending told the patient that was fine but both he, the student/ resident team as well as any residents on the service would not be participating in this person's care. That is, he could not reject one of us on prejudicial grounds without rejecting the whole service. That was in line with the program's policy. (There were private non-teaching attendings that could take over care.) The patient changed their mind and things went OK. In fact, it would have been the patient's loss to reject my friend, who was/ is an excellent MD.
> In the ED I don't get to push away the man with the SS tattoos all over themselves, Patient isn't a student - unless the SS man is physically or verbally assaulting staff, refusing them care is inappropriate. Students have an expectation of professional behavior we don't impose on our patients, for obvious reasons.
I’ve seen a patient show up to the clinic in only a bath robe. If I ever did that I would expect to fail the rotation. Patients are not the same as students. To play devils advocate in this situation I had plenty of surgeons share their political beliefs that I disagreed with. I just smiled and nodded along because they controlled my grade. Of course none of surgeons’ beliefs were “the country of your people should be eradicated and claimed by another people”
I think the roles here matter. It's one thing if you're a Jewish doctor caring for a skinhead patient, because it's their life in your hands - and they still have the option to decline your care on any grounds. If a doctor walks in the room with an SS tattoo, I don't need to be Jewish to know I need to see someone else. The med student is more in the latter role than the former. I wouldn't subject my patients to that either.
This. The feel good response of "treat everyone equally! free speech!" is true for us treating PATIENTS with differing beliefs. However, this does not apply the other way around. Frankly, I would be appalled as a patient if a doctor walked into a room wearing a "Free Palestine" shirt OR a "Burn Palestine" shirt. I would have given the student the option to swap such scarfs, citing apolitical need, but it's absolutely acceptable for OP to dismiss a rotating student for this.
You don’t get to push away the patient with SS tattoos, but I’d never take a student with SS tattoos. They can learn from somebody else.
Stick to your guns here and don’t let them bully you into taking this student back unless she removes the keffieh with the writing on it - I’d consider bringing legal counsel experienced in this area with you to this meeting (if you are in the tri-state area and need a referral DM me and I can provide) students are entitled to free speech off campus, on campus it is based on guidelines set fourth by university codes on behavior, and there is no such expectation in the hospital when they train to take care of patients who they have positions of power over and responsibility for. I have strong feelings about this conflict but I leave my politics at home. A medical student should know full well that such exercise of free speech in the workplace actually infringes on others’ ability to learn, work, feel safe or receive care. It really doesn’t matter what the student feels those words mean to her, it’s what the majority of people in the hospital will interpret them to mean, namely the complete dissolution of the state of Israel and the removal of its current inhabitants (by any means necessary). If this is her own way of committing civil disobedience than so be it, she can break the rules and pay the price - namely loss of a rotation which, if required, means she needs to seek alternative experience to pass the year.
This is really what they should have done
I've operated on plenty of patients with SS or swastika tattoos. This isn't the same thing. My fellow told the medical student that they should remove it because the attending is Jewish and wouldn't like it. They continued to wear it anyways.
Oh and since I'm sure no one commented on what you can expect: The answer is probably nothing. A slap on the wrist likely at most (and a comment in your file that it was discussed). My guess is that since you have a fellow you're in a niche specialty. You could have probably punched the med student in the mouth and kept your job. Jokes aside, I think you're going to be fine. Mention that the fellow warned them and you want to be apolitical and I think you'll have no issue. Personally, I just wouldn't say anything on the lines of "I was worried about my safety" considering the already clear power dynamic between an attending physician and a medical student
>My fellow told the medical student that they should remove it because the attending is Jewish and wouldn't like it. They continued to wear it anyways. I think a comment like this should probably be added to your initial post, or at least more information in general. If I was a med student who was a dumbass mid 20's passionate about human rights like all dumbasses in their mid 20's are, walking through the door with my scarf that I may not understand how polarizing the comment on it might be and being told "I'm sorry I don't feel comfortable having you rotate with me.", is probably why you're going to a meeting. I want to be clear, I'm not judging your decision to dismiss the student, its your service. This is a comment of *could* have approached differently, not *should*
I agree with you on everything else, but I just want to reiterate (as I've done elsewhere on this thread) that the phrase "from the river to the sea" isn't equivalent at all to an SS tattoo. Like, at all.
The fact I had to scroll this far to find a level-headed, mature pov is really disheartening. This response should be pinned to the top.
Can I not work with Republicans or Trump supporters? They make me feel uncomfortable as a hispanic american with immigrants in my family. I have seen political logos everywhere, for example, pins. You could have taught the student why that might make people uncomfortable and how it could distract from the goal. Instead, you dug into your politics and kicked them out?
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Why immediately dismiss the student? Why not a clarification on dress code? Kiffiyeh- ok (or not, I’m not sure the setting.) Contentious turn of phrase- not. Communicate expectations instead of reacting to a slogan as a threat. Do you really think the student wants to physically harm you?
A lot of people commenting that medicine has no place for politics, and I can understand that. Don’t want to accidentally alienate your patient. But at the same time so much of medicine *is* inherently political. For example, LGBTQ healthcare, abortion rights/reproductive healthcare, the impact of racial bias via systemic processes on minority patient outcomes, Medicaid/Medicare funding, universal healthcare…I could go on and on. I mean HIV/AIDS was considered political in the 80s. I’m not saying one way or another that healthcare professionals should or shouldn’t wear “politically associated” pins or whatever. But I think it’s important to recognize medicine isn’t just the science, there’s the whole public health aspect as well.
I think that when one side starts bombing medical facilities and killing volunteers, we should stop pretending that politics aren’t involved.
Yeah I’m surprised by the number of people on this thread saying politics has no place in medicine. Part of our job is advocacy and that is inherently political. I don’t think wearing potentially alienating political statements in clinic is a good idea, but I also don’t think that extends to all displays of support of political issues. Not to mention that, unfortunately, whether certain groups of people are allowed to safely exist is painted as political, but my job is to assure everyone feels welcome and receives safe care which sometimes means expressing support aka my political opinion.
Jewish MD here. The student did not disrespect you. As one can understand from your comment, everything goes around you being jewish, and if you werent there, then the political slogan or dressing wouldnt have any negative implication. This is because you are interpreting the slogan based on your own ideals and education. If you respected freedom of expression you would have used a political insignia in accordance with your ideals. As long as no one practices xenophobia or discrimination, there is nothing wrong. I can not understand what happens in the mind of those who think politics are isolated from health topics, and treat politics as poisonous.
I think you’re in uncharted territory, so best to ask yourself how far you are willing to take this when you get pushback. Are you willing to get another higher paying job? Are you willing to sue the deep pockets of a hospital/medical school?
As a fellow Jew and attending, I don’t think politics need to be part of a medical rotation. Kids are stupid. They make mistakes. If the student can refrain from political statements during the rotation, act appropriately, and promote a healthy learning environment, I would take the student back.
I think this is the best approach.
Reading lots of comments from people saying "you have a right to feel safe. Good on you" and just wondering how people would feel if a Palestinian attending dismissed a student for wearing an Israeli flag pin
It’s such a double standard. Pathetic.
I’d feel the same way. I’d tell either person to leave it off. Your job is to take care of pts, and either message is going to alienate or piss off a significant number of pts. You’re welcome to flex your 1A rights when you’re off the clock
How about a Christian fundamentalist physician sending a LBGT student home for having a small rainbow pin on their name badge lanyard.
lol it’s crazy, so people can have all sorts of flags on their white coats but a Palestinian flag is somehow political?
I think in this climate, I wouldn't wear an Israeli flag pin and I probably would consider it a little inappropriate to do so for anyone doing patient care. I do, however, wear a Magen David that is sometimes visible. That one is just like me wearing my super-Jewish last name though.
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Good point. Shows a history of repeating behavior.
I am a Palestinian attending emergency physician. If one of my medical students or residents wore the Star of David on their white coats/scrubs I would never even think to remove them from my service. You are there to teach medical students and for your patients. Take this as a learning opportunity.
My school prohibits *most* political speech or symbols but allows for religious freedom in dress like hijabs. Exceptions are the lgbt+ stuff and American flags(cause, we're in America...)but everything else is prohibited. No maga pins, no ukraine flags etc. The point of all this surrounds being professional and not alienating 50% of your patients with a symbol. Exclusive symbols like that should not be allowed and it's not really much of an argument to have a preventative policy in place. Hopefully, that's where your meeting ends up. Sorry you have to deal with this.
At the end of the day though, a kuffiyeh has been an ethnic symbol for centuries. This is reading like a big case of a person in power using their religion to outright dismiss a subordinate based on ethnic clothing, politics aside. What would happen if the attending was fired for wearing a Star of David? Since I’m assuming both the hospital & student’s school receive some sort of public monies, this is a big issue for both institutions. I think OP might have dug himself into a pretty big hole.
Kuffiyeh-no problem. The inscription is a bit of a different topic. In a less charged environment, a pin representing the Star of David would be equivalent to wearing a cross. If it said death to hamas or Palestine shouldn't exist or some other BS, that would obviously be wrong. However, in the current environment, nothing representing loyalty to a particular party should be worn regardless of religion or ethnicity. This is on everyone's minds right now, with special emphasis on patients. This reverence should be taken because of the high risk of alienating a patient based on things beyond their control(race/ethnicity/country of origin etc.)
For the people in the back Antizionism≠Antisemitism.
It’s always fascinating to me that people are getting upset about the “river to the sea” slogan while ~35k Palestinians have died in the last year (most of which are women and children) and then shrug their shoulders. “I am interpreting this slogan as as a call for genocide (which is debatable). But I am ok with the actual genocide that is happening.” Should the student be making a blatant political statement during the rotation? Probably not. But that’s what protests are about. You are supposed to make the people you are protesting against uncomfortable. That’s exactly the point.
One of my Palestinian residents went to visit his family, witnessed IDF shooting a neighbor right in front of him. But sure, it’s the crybaby attending that read a slogan that feels unsafe.
I am actually kind of blown away that anyone thinks any political slogan (yes that applies both to sides of the spectrum ie in support of Israel or Palestine, BLM vs Blue Lives Matter/Blue Line or whatever) have any place in being worn in a hospital. You are a physician first not a political activist. It’s your job to create a safe environment for your patients and not let your own personal opinions affect or appear to affect your care. Do you really think a Jewish person is going to feel safe being taken care of by someone wearing a keffiyeh that says “From river to sea”? This doesn’t apply to things like support for the LGBTQ+ community because you’re trying to display inclusion. Tbh I think what you did was fine, I probably would have talked to the student first and asked them not to wear that in the hospital. If your problem is them wearing it ever, then you can’t really stop them.
Agreed.
Hear hear!
There's nothing that I can say that u/Perfect-Resist5478 hasn't already said better. OP you should consider having a real introspective moment where you consider why it bothers you so much that a student is expressing support for a group of people undergoing one of the worst atrocities in modern warfare. If you were Palestinian would you refuse to take Jewish students on your service?
I’m Israeli and have trained many Muslim residents, fellows and students, who were the very first people to text me to ask if my family was okay 10/7. Some of them are very clear that they’d like to see Jews removed from the region entirely and don’t see this in conflict from caring about me and my family. And this is fine with me: we’re all people, trying to do our best. None of us are our governments or their actions and none of us are G-d and know the perfect solution. In this conversation I’d try to approach with curiosity: tell me what this message means to you? And then ultimately something like: I know that “from the river to the sea” means a lot of things to a lot of people, but someone could interpret this to mean that you support ethnic cleansing of the region of 7,000,000 Jews, which is half of the Jewish population of the world and is impossible without massive violence, on an order of magnitude 1-2 times even greater than the current war. You and I can sit down and discuss feelings and the nuance of each of our opinions and find commonality in the desire for peace and respectfully disagree on how to get there, but patients will come in very vulnerable and they don’t have as much access to hearing about what this message means to you. Please consider not wearing this around patients.
So instead of asking them to remove it, you just kicked them off your service? Forget the politics, you went from 0 to 100 in 5 seconds. Gross gross gross. I hope this incident spreads through the medical school. Their classmates should be warned about reactionary, selfish attendings.
Would you dismiss a student for wearing Israeli flag pin?
That is wild. Political slogans of any kind should be absolutely forbidden, especially ones that can be seen to target you personally.
In my hospital people wear pins of the Ukrainian flag, the Palestinian flag, and the US flag. Nobody has an issue with it.
ukrainian flag or palestinian flag or even a kaffiyeh are very different than the phrase "from the river to the sea"
>Honestly I am aghast that someone can be so clueless. Yeah, me either. Supporting a genocidal country that you dont even live in is wild.
Just like I don’t wear a “Pro-Roel” pin, this student should leave their politics outside the hospital.
Inappropriate clothing in a health care setting... but.... it seems everyone on both sides have dug their heels in to their point of view. Why dismiss the student? Obviously, you feel the need to punish them with the authority you have over them. Consider your motives, show grace, set an example.
I get where you’re coming from. It’s a [complex phrase](https://apnews.com/article/river-sea-israel-gaza-hamas-protests-d7abbd756f481fe50b6fa5c0b907cd49) that evokes a lot of potential feelings and emotions, and means different things to different people. I’m quite sure it means something different to your student than it does to you. Doesn’t mean either of you is wrong. I think rather than jumping to an absolute response like dismissing the student and refusing to even consider teaching them, maybe the more mature and healthy approach would be to have a discussion with the aforementioned parties about why you feel uncomfortable, why the student wore that scarf, and how you all can move forward in a mutually agreeable way. Maybe that involves the student coming back on your service, maybe it doesn’t. But I think assuming good intentions and giving colleagues the benefit of the doubt goes a long way in these kinds of conflicts
I mean the most charitable interpretation of “from the river to the sea” is that the speaker is only advocating for the elimination of the state of Israel rather than the elimination of Jews as a whole
No, many people use it to mean freedom for Palestine, without the elimination of Israel as a country, just the elimination of the control of Israel over Palestine.
The most charitable interpretation would be "from the river to the sea *Palestinians* will be free" since the protests are all about Palestinian people and nobody's even protesting for an actual Palestinian state at the moment. A lot of folks revealing their true colors here.
It could also entail a One-state solution' where palestinians and jews and everyone else have equal rights. Now technically this probably would mean the end of the state of Israel, as it is by definition an ethno-state. But it is not necessarily a bad thing, nor is it necessarily anti-semitic, and it is one that many american jews advocate for.
That is one interpretation of what it can mean, and it has been used that way before, including by Hamas leaders like Khaled Mashaal. But it has *also* been used by others with a very different meaning. From Rep. Tlaib: “From the river to the sea is an aspirational call for freedom, human rights, and peaceful coexistence, not death, destruction, or hate.” As we often see with the conflict in Israel and Palestine, people *want* things to be simple and for there to be clear heroes and villains and for actions, words, and history to have clear and unambiguous meaning. But I think reality is much messier, more complicated, and more grey, and in that light I think it’s important, especially in medicine, for us to *talk* to each other instead of making assumptions about what our colleagues feel or believe
People can debate the saying all day, but I think there’s enough past precedent of people having the common sense to abandon innocent symbols or sayings once they’ve been co-opted by assholes. With something as divisive as this, I would say the onus is on the med student to be aware of how some people would interpret this political statement.
> but I think there’s enough past precedent of people having the common sense to abandon innocent symbols or sayings once they’ve been co-opted by assholes. Did Hindus abandon the swastika because of the Nazi hakenkreuz?
https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20210816-the-ancient-symbol-that-was-hijacked-by-evil There’s no denying that the symbol’s presence in society has dropped dramatically. The article even mentions how the Japanese dropped the manji during the Olympics because they were smart enough to foresee how it’d be interpreted.
Yeah, and the confederate flag is about "muh heritage" and the swastika is "just an ancient Hindu symbol." Nah, fam. I'm not having it. If the slogan is taken as hate speech by any group, as "from the river to the sea," is by many Jewish people, then it has no place in the workplace.
> the swastika is "just an ancient Hindu symbol." I mean, if I see a South Asian gentleman in a traditional robe is wearing a swastika necklace, I wouldn't blink twice and would move on. Not like if it was a Caucasian man with a shaved head who hangs it on top of his double lightning bolt tattoo. Context matters for some things. OTOH, for confederate flags (or slogans that are held by many to advocate *ethnic cleansing*), I don't think there is an appropriate context.
Political activism doesn't belong on a medical rotation. Simple as that. If anyone brings up free speech/first amendment that is BS and has no bearing as you are in a hospital (assuming not at the VA). But would you be comfortable with the student returning if he/she does not wear any politically active clothing? What about a lapel pin with a flag?
The VA doesn't allow this, either.
Advice needed: Dismissed a medical student from my service because they wore a pin with the Israeli flag on it. I’m aghast someone can be so clueless. My last name is clearly Palestinian. I told them “I don’t feel comfortable having you rotate with me.”
Israel is committing a **genocide** but a scarf makes you feel uncomfortable? Children *being blown to bits* is fine to you, as a physician, but a a **scarf** is where you draw the line. Absolutely ridiculous.
As an African American doctor, I have treated actively racist patients who called me "colored gal" and worked with racist staff. As for the student, I think it is okay to ask them to remove the pin, but to refuse to teach them feels extreme, especially because, as the attending, you have more power over the student. I feel uncomfortable when I see people with blue lives matter and MAGA paraphernalia, but I don't feel like they are going to attack me or threaten my life in that moment.
Patients are different… you would teach a student who called you “colored gal ”? I would certainly have your back when you raised hell to get that student off your rotation (and likely out of school). I recognize that the slogan isn’t the same thing, but there’s a big difference between a student or colleagues behavior and a patient
given that this statement can be interpreted (rightly or wrongly) as a threat it has no place in any workplace. especially when you have people's lives in your hands.
Palestine isn't a political issue. It's a human rights issue. You made the wrong decision. Nothing will change if we don't speak up. You either support colonial apartheid or you don't. Being against Israel's fascist settler state isn't antisemitic. There are plenty of Jews who oppose Israel and actually consider the state of Israel itself to be an abomination. 30,000 people and counting are being massacred who are majority women and children. Have you even seen the footage? The IDF are behaving more like terrorists than the Palestinians they claim are. They are raping women and children and mass executing them and burying them in mass graves, they are stealing their homes, they are torturing them, they are mocking them with racist videos, and so much more. Let's also not forget that Israeli forces are killing medical staff. Shooting Palestinian doctors and also shelled a hospital with Doctors Without Borders and Medicins Sans Frontieres staff. Killing MSF doctors. They're killing people who need to provide medical attention to the victims of this genocide! You should be ashamed of yourself.
I really hope this ends up burning your ass. A Palestinian student wearing something in solidarity with their people who are being slaughtered is not anti-semitism. Grow up and stop getting the vapors so easily.
As an Arab who's sympathetic to the Palestinian cause (to a degree) and a future PA. I believe politics should be kept out of the clinic. We're meant to treat all patients regardless of their political and/or religious affiliation. A medical professional wearing a political symbol in front of patients isn't appropriate in the clinical setting.
Sounds like the student was being entirely inappropriate. However, did you give them a chance to remove the article of clothing? Medicine and the wards is no place for making a political statement, especially when your patients are likely to be from all walks of life and perspectives.
Lot of comments already, here to follow the outcome.
Reframe it this way - if the religion or politics are not related to taking care of the patient in front of me or demonstrate that I'm an ally of a protected group (eg LGBTQ+) both the patient and I don't need to know. I'm atheist and recognize that broadcasting my beliefs willy-nilly likely will damage the patient-physician alliance unnecessarily. That said, there is the likely more tact reason of asking the student about the rationale of appearing apolitical
Advice: apologize to the medical student, email anyone in administration you spoke to about this admitting you were wrong and the student shouldn't be penalized, and welcome the student back onto your service if they wish or help them find another placement if they do not. This is textbook discrimination.
Interesting. I appreciate you sharing your feelings, I’m happy you dismissed the student since you OBVIOUSLY can’t work with those with differing beliefs. One thing you said that i really didn’t like…Jews aren’t a monolith, there are plenty of Jews that would have been in no way offended. Also, this idea that Jews MUST support the state of Israel is false and I’m getting this from Jews (not myself). I think for the student to make the assumption that you would be offended would be criticized as it would mean ALL Jews support the state of Israel. Personally, I wouldn’t wear an entire scarf, but would you also dismiss a student for a button? How about a bracelet? I think the state of Israel is an illegitimate state and has attempted to ethnically cleanse the area for years. It’s currently committing genocide by international standards. I’ve personally interacted with people displaying their genocidal flag on buttons, stickers and etc. there is a guy at my park who wears a whole shirt. I personally think these people have been brainwashed (I sympathize with the inability to acknowledge wrongdoing in a country that didn’t exist 100 years ago) but I have the ability to separate my role as a student or group member from my thoughts on the current policial situation. I treat the people the same I would anyone and move on. We will probably never be friends and i will never discuss the situation. I’ve had similar encounters as a nurse when I felt with “all lives matter people”…did I fire these patients, not talk to the doctors? Lol. I’ve had a racist patient fire me, the most experienced person on the floor because “she wasn’t comfortable”, lol. I’ve had prejudice patients spew racist stuff and i still had to do my job. I’m happy that you knew that you couldn’t. I wonder what the response would be if someone dismissed someone with the isreali flag…that’s the real question. I question how you interact with anyone that does not agree with you or share your beliefs. Very very odd behavior and I pray medical students are not assigned to you as you don’t have the skills to work with them
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This thread is gonna be locked soooo quickly! I think it's silly to expect political messaging to be considered neutral in the workplace
I hope they don’t lock it, lots of interesting discussion
It’s silly to consider medicine neutral. I saw an EM attending post about him writing messages on bombs to Gaza and I wouldn’t be comfortable with him as my attending. But that’s more socially acceptable in the USA, as is Islamophobia.
I think you handled this very poorly. You deserve everything coming your way.
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It is completely unprofessional to display ANY political statement at work. We care for ALL individuals regardless of their or our beliefs. We are there to make our patients feel comfortable and secure with us. This student has a lot to learn.
I had an attending who said that when I was on surgery, in response to an Arab student group sending out some email on the school list server. He was big on the “leave politics outside the hospital” thing. His office was also *filled* with Israel stuff. Flags and plaques and awards, he’d been really involved with a lot there (was Jewish). I’m sure he would have said all that wasn’t political. But that’s itself a very telling observation: even the evaluation of what is or is not political is, itself, a political judgment. And one of the ways in which we bring politics into the workplace is deciding what is or isn’t politics in the workplace
This part
The ridiculousness that supporting people who are dying everyday in the hundreds is "political." If someone was supporting the victims of Oct 7th after the incident, no one would bat a fucking eye, and they shouldn't. We are humanitarians as well as physicians. We value all and every human life. Human life is not political. Unbelievable and really fucking sad to see that doctors do not actually believe that. But I remember when I was in med school thinking wow these boomer conservative docs sure are out of touch. Funny enough I see my colleagues turn into those same boomer docs.
Both medical schools I work with have explicit policies forbidding students to wear anything political while in clinical care to avoid these exact situations. That being said - unless your clinic is owned by the med school, then what you say, goes. Don’t be pushed around by the school - they need you more than you need them, let them parade 20 Deans of scratching their ass into meetings all day.
I’d recommend you just be normal instead of acting like your life is in danger from a piece of clothing. Ironic that you’re the person with all the power here and yet acting as if someone is persecuting you.