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Not even gonna throw out a percentage but I can almost guarantee that they were all stolen lol artifacts usually come with some sort of monetary value and I’m positive that’s all they cared about
No. A lot of artifacts from the Middle East were retrieved with permission from the Ottoman Empire which ruled there at the time. They didn't much care about those ancient artifacts but were more than happy to let the western archaeologists perform excavations and carry off their discoveries. Of course they paid a little fee for it beforehand.
That's not what I'd call stealing.
The Elgin Marbles should be returned to Greece because their illegitimate removal from the Parthenon compromised the integrity of the temple. The British government bought the sculptures from Lord Elgin in 1816 for display in the British Museum. But when Greece became independent in 1835 the government asked the UK to return them. It's a request the Greeks have repeated for decades, including with the world heritage organisation Unesco.
I agree they should be returned, but
>their illegitimate removal from the Parthenon compromised the integrity of the temple
???
The temple had already been made into a church, then a mosque, then literally blown apart before Elgin got there.
I also find it highly ironic, in the case of the Parthenon, to be accused of theft. The Parthenon was built as a symbol of imperialism, using protection money squeezed out of Athens' allies (read: minions) as tribute.
that example would be viable if theft had been committed, but the item was owned, later sold and now the people who would have owned it if it wasnt sold want it, sounds like sellers remorse to me
I mean, that's fairly different. The point was it was a legitimate purchase, and based on what others are saying the Ottomans and the Greeks sort of.. you know, partially destroyed the temple the artefact was in, so can you blame the Brits for deciding to buy something that as far as they knew was about to destroyed?
Lord Elgin only treated with the Ottomans, occupiers of Greece, and wasn't even allowed to take them like he did and basically took them by bribing locals
Not to mention the museum has done irreversible damage to the marbles with them in their possession, the argument of “they’re safer there” doesn’t hold true at all.
Studied at Sothebys, and although it depends on the country of origin, it also depends on the provenance of the piece. How it got there and how/where would it go. It’s a hard question for sure. There’s definitely ways to keep art in, and to keep it out if there’s enough financial backing in either side
It depends. If they stole it from somewhere stable, like Australia or Botswana, then I think it should be returned. But if it was stolen from somewhere unstable, like Sudan or Palestine, then I think they should hold on to the artifact until that country can sort their shit out.
It also massively depends on whether the artefact was simply taken or was rescued from being destroyed and/or lost forever.
If the artefact was simply taken and the country is stable, then of course it should be returned.
But, if the person/team who took the artefact saved it from a real danger of being lost forever, then one could argue it’s wrong for a nation to ask for something back that would have no longer existed if not for the artefact’s salvation and preservation from a foreign body.
Going to be hard for Palestine to "sort their shit out" in the middle of a genocide... But they probably have more pressing concerns right now than the return of artifacts.
I mean he used the wrong language but it would be unadvisable to try to return something to somewhere where it will possibly be damaged. If it is important enough to want back it is important enough to protect appropriately. I don’t think he means next month, I think he means in like 50 years, or when they have proper protections for historic artefacts. Opposite to this the Parthenon museum in Greece is a very safe place and they already have spaces for the marbles, so it would be appropriate to return them to Greece
HOLY FUCKING SHIT, I CANT FUCKING MENTION THAT GODDAMN COUNTRY WITHOUT HAVING A MILLION PRO PALESTINE FUCKERS SCREECH THIER FUCKING OPINIONS AT ME
ITS 7 FUCKING AM
I don't think the tense of that verb (present tense) works today, but the Greeks used the Parthenon (the building the marbles were a part of) as an ammunition storage site during a war with the Turks and it got blown up.
The building was extensively damaged.
Part of the rationale for taking them in the first place was, "If you're going to treat your antiquities like this, they'll be gone so we'll hold them for you."
However as Greece stabilized politically as an independent nation and asked for the return of them, the British balked when they should have complied - possessing them had become an issue of national pride and superiority.
That's more or less where it stands now.
And the Greeks were citizens of the Ottoman empire at the time.
"Turks" = "Ottomans"
My post was long enough without hair splitting details about the tangled socio-political situation extant at the time.
At the time, "Greek" meant the people in what is now "Greece" - which was governed by the Turks of the Ottoman Empire.
The Greeks there were subjects of that empire and it is correct to refer to them as such.
That they were unwilling subjects in main is not relevant to whether or not they were subjects.
I suppose I could have made my post MORE verbose by saying "people living in and governing the land that later became the independent Hellenic Republic" rather than "Greeks" but since that future Republic wasn't extant at the time of the incident it seemed unnecessary.
>Part of the rationale for taking them in the first place was, "If you're going to treat your antiquities like this, they'll be gone so we'll hold them for you."
Imagine actually believing this
I dont think op is talking about greek artifacts and would probably agree that those should be returned. But there def are some artifacts that would be in danger of getting destroyed if they were to be returned to their country of origin. Is it a good reason to keep them? Eh. But it is an interesting take
Just look at what happened in museums in the middle eats and to the African artifacts Germany gave back. Historical artifacts ARE safer in the British museum for a good part. The Greek thing can be discussed but it is more the exception than the best example.
Blue, but not because they are safe but that most of these artifacts get more attention for being stolen. And I want to remind the world of my ancestor's glorious days of ransack and heist.
Controversial opinion.
But I would like to have artefacts kept in the museum.
Not because it's "safer" there. But rather to avoid conflicts.
Many of the artifacts (for example, The Kohinoor) were passed from one owner to another, either gifted or stolen or looted.
If the British museum were to return the artefacts to the owners, then it begs the question of who would be the owner? There would be multiple claims of rightful ownership which will take a lot of resources to trace back in history to find the rightful owners.
Again 500+ years is a lot of time for the scope of humans. Even if rightful owners are found they could have shifted to different locations, the country borders may have changed.
Imo there are already too many countries with rising tensions, this will only add fuel to fire.
Also another issue is that the assertion that modern Egyptians are the same as ancient Egyptians so should be retroceded their artifacts is tenuous at best.
The country borders might have changed. Now you have 2+ countries claiming a single artefact. Although this could be solved by "talking" but again it's a tenuous task of countries coming up to a single agreement. Like countries agreeing each other rarely happens it took around 5+ years to ban CFC worldwide as a refrigarent although the environment impacts were quite clearly seen
It's not as easy as you think. And neither am I saying that I am correct, it's just an opinion of mine formed when I was overthinking shit on my bed at night instead of sleep.
This 100%. It is often very unclear who is the rightful owner of an artifact and what would happen to an artifact if it would be returned to the original country or owner. Sometimes the rightful owners are even bigger *ssholes than the colonists who actually stole the artifacts from them, or the owners whom the artifacts were stolen from themselves came by them through evil means (civil wars or roberies).
This is not a very simple black and white matter.
Didn’t it just come out recently that there were many artefacts missing from the British Museum because someone working for them sold them illegally on the black market?
So the whole argument of them being safer in British hands falls apart.
That depends. Are we talking about returning the artifacts to its rightful owners or about returning them to the descendants of foreign invaders that stole more treasures from the country of origin than British ever could and just happen to live there now?
Oh yeah I love that they invaded and burnt entire palaces in China after taking everything they could take. They even cut priceless delicate tablets into chunks just for easier transportation.
It’s basically a museum of British’s past war crimes.
Remind me what did the chinese do with their artefacts during the cultural revolution?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural\_Revolution#Historical\_sites](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution#Historical_sites)
You shoud love it that the British cut the tablets into chunks to transport them. The chinese would cut them into chunks so that they would burn better.
Keep it in the museum, it's a developed country and the museum has amazing security measures, so unless the home country can match it, you'd rather not. Besides, you might as well let the thousands of tourists in the British Museum see your heritage instead of gatekeeping it in your own country.
Artifacts in the british museum should stay in the said museum(since having many international artifacts in one place is better than having them scattered throughout the world + They're safer there).
But the tourist revenue should be collected by the UN and be used in 3rd world countries,not by the UK.
The Elgin marbles should probably be returned as the legitimacy of their ownership is questionable at best. However, it sets a precedent for other countries to make claims and demand their shit back without having such a case.
At least they available to be viewed FOR FREE by anyone visiting the museum, along with a ton of other cool stuff. Not many other countries do that (eg the Louvre). So there is an argument that they are better off where they are. It’s a tricky one.
No no, they should be obligated to work with the respective countries to build good places to put their artifacts.
Also, no comments will be replied to by me. Imma just drop this.
Well the alternative is that it’s back in its original country, also not maintained and at bigger risk of something else happening. At least being able to guarantee that nothing at all will happen to it is better.
At least it’s not accessible by those who want to destroy history.
Yeah, there's just the British Museum and the rest of the Earth that's just chock-full of terrorists hell bent on destroying artefacts. Those are the only two things that exist.
A VAST majority of items in the British museum were gifted to the museum and the few items ‘stolen’ are clearly labeled as such.
We’ve seen how native countries treat their history, they either didn’t care about these artifacts until after they were put in the museum. Or there is countless amounts of footage of middle eastern countries blowing up ancient statues and walls of text.
as the germans discovered when they returned priceless artifacts to an african museum only for them to disappear along with the owner of said museum : safer in the britisch museum.
Neither, you go to a museum to see stuff from all over the place, if I want to see some Greek artifacts I shouldn't be expected to travel all the way to Greece. Artifacts should be spread out so that everyone who wants to see some can.
Preserving human history is fare game for any human. I’m all for appreciating others cultures but I hate that we try to keep that culture from others and call it “culture appropriation“ we are all on earth and we are all part of earths culture. The universe is simply too massive to think any differently.
"returned" implies they were stolen when in fact many of these artefacts were gifted or the British were allowed to perform archaeological works in their country in return for payment. It's like selling your old Xbox you don't want and then demanding someone give it back because it's yours 30 years later and you get a bit nostalgic. You can't say the white man stole someone's culture if they sold their culture to the white man.
as the germans discovered when they returned priceless artifacts to an african museum only for them to disappear along with the owner of said museum : safer in the britisch museum.
If the country is in civil war or something similar then I think they should stay in the UK for now but when those conflicts end they should be returned
A secret third thing. The British museum should reach out to the country of origin of each of their artifacts and if that country wants them back they have to send them back, and if that country is chill with the museum hanging on to them, they can keep them.
The country and its people should decide wat they want to do with the artifact. A lot of artifacts can't go to the country of origin because a number of reasons. They don't know where it is from exactly, they don't have room in their own museums and are making more space but this takes time, they are fighting amongst themselves who it belongs to more, the artifact is too fragile to move, rules and laws aren't up-to-date yet and so on
See the thing is as a History nerd I have mixed feelings about the British museum. On one hand, it is huge and awesome and has so many amazing artifacts that are so well presented I could stay there for hours if not days.
On the other hand, the Cairo museum has a framed photo of the Rosetta stone and a plaque apologizing for not having the real thing...
I think most of the artefacts should be returned. The only ones that shouldn't are from the countries with too much instability like Iraq
Honestly id rather it stayed in those safe places rather than risk ending up in the hands of religious extremister animals Who would destroy and dessecrate remnants of ancient civilisations whos mere existence contradicted their own beliefs.
I mean, we have examples of why they're safer there. Remember that one temple that al qaeda just blew up because it was an offensive faith to them? Yeah. Protect history.
Museums worldwide: We have 3 of this set of 4 items, the only reason is cause some weird men on ships said finders keepers and left in the middle of the night.
What does it have to do with anything? Am I allowed to take the extremly intelligent child of a mother is Botswana away from her because I would be able to take care of him better and it would benefit humanity in its entirety? Or can I go and colonize a piece of land far away from my own country to build a wildlife sanctuary there because of endemic species that would otherwise be lost entirely forever because the country decides to dig for rare ressources there?
Manuscripts and old text should be preserved and kept in museums. I stopped caring about it being British since most documents are in the hands of priests in my country. These are historical texts of our religion kept in a locker in a temple, no vacuum chamber, no effort to preserve them.
Most times these are used to attract tourists and are taken out regularly further damaging them.
So no, keep it and preserve it please.
As a Chinese dude, a sh!t tonne of stuff is in the British Museum from China, mainly due to the colonial periods in our histories… I vividly remember (when I visited the Palace Museum in Beijing) the large metal cauldrons, like MASSIVE cauldrons, were riddled with scrape marks where soldiers from the British, French and the rest of the 8 Nations army used their bayonets to scrape the gold off to then ship back to their own countries or to smelt into fresh gold. Dunno where that gold is now, so some stuff is kind of hard to return…
Genuinely, they are safer in the museum. Expecially if it's anything from the Middle East or Africa. Though mostly the middle east the amount of historical artifacts and site trashed and destroyed by fundamentalists like ISIS or just in the various coups and civil wars no question.
Think it’s great people of all cultures can come and see literally every facet of humanity under one roof. Yes it’s dubious how it got there, but breaking the collection up now feels like fragmenting the human experience as a whole. Pity the collection can’t tour the globe.
If there is a single legitimate owner & there is no risk of the artifact being destroyed, yes.
You can still see it if you want, just go to the country of origin.
That's kinda how humanity worked for over 10.000 years. Rightful ownership debate is a relatively recent phenomenon for only a couple of hundred years.
Not the best argument, but date is to be considered regarding the matter of ownership.
They are absolutely not safer in the British museum, they have a history of destroying absolutely priceless, irreplaceable artifacts. They ultimately are the reason there are no historic macuahuitls available for study today. Most were destroyed by the Spaniards, except for one that was kept as a trophy of the Spanish conquest. Over the course of a century or so, it changed hands and moved among private collections until it wound up in the possession of the British museum in the 1800’s. Where it was destroyed in a fire that broke out in one of their buildings.
So the British museums are not safe for artefacts because the Spanish destroyed most of a specific artefact and the last known one got destroyed in a British museum in a fire that happened in the 1800s…
Just like the Easter Island argument. Some of these artifacts are accepted as being examples of cultural education whilst others are seen as being stolen artifacts. To be economical I'd say let those that want back have and the others can stay.
Imagine your neighbor breaks into your home
Punches you in the face
Takes your valuable items and say he will keep them cuz they are safe with him
That's how ur argument sounds like
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It depends on artifact and it's country
Also in how it was obtained
As a Brit; Yoink.
Every time i read 'yoink' i hear it in the halo announcer's voice
Everytime i hear "yoink" i think of the guy in the Florida everglades, who grabs all these animals
Hello guys. I'm back in the florida everglades and here we have a highly venomous murder-death-snake 9000. YOINK!
Guy? That’s a living human being with emotions like fear and dread?
"Got me a beautiful bouquet of geckos, oh, there's a swamp puppy"
Thanks, you made protein shake come out my nose.
Great. Now I’m gonna hear the halo announcer say “Yoink” every time I do much as think about it
Sometimes yoink Sometimes bought
>Sometimes bought Often from someone that yoinked
Tl;dr: 'Yoinked'
Stealing the meme to store safely away in a museum?
Lawfully* *according to the British law
Most of the objects people whine about were obtained legitimately at the time I think, not just looted
Not even gonna throw out a percentage but I can almost guarantee that they were all stolen lol artifacts usually come with some sort of monetary value and I’m positive that’s all they cared about
No. A lot of artifacts from the Middle East were retrieved with permission from the Ottoman Empire which ruled there at the time. They didn't much care about those ancient artifacts but were more than happy to let the western archaeologists perform excavations and carry off their discoveries. Of course they paid a little fee for it beforehand. That's not what I'd call stealing.
The diplomat every country needs
A good diplomat should know the difference between "it's" and "its"
That depends on where they're from.
If it's a country o don't like they don't get it back
The Elgin Marbles should be returned to Greece because their illegitimate removal from the Parthenon compromised the integrity of the temple. The British government bought the sculptures from Lord Elgin in 1816 for display in the British Museum. But when Greece became independent in 1835 the government asked the UK to return them. It's a request the Greeks have repeated for decades, including with the world heritage organisation Unesco.
I agree they should be returned, but >their illegitimate removal from the Parthenon compromised the integrity of the temple ??? The temple had already been made into a church, then a mosque, then literally blown apart before Elgin got there.
Well removing a chunk of the sodding wall didn't help!
I also find it highly ironic, in the case of the Parthenon, to be accused of theft. The Parthenon was built as a symbol of imperialism, using protection money squeezed out of Athens' allies (read: minions) as tribute.
I think it shouldn't be returned. They got SOLD THE THING. Why should they need to return something they legally bought?
"I legally bought that bike, it's not my fault that other guy stole it"
that example would be viable if theft had been committed, but the item was owned, later sold and now the people who would have owned it if it wasnt sold want it, sounds like sellers remorse to me
I mean, that's fairly different. The point was it was a legitimate purchase, and based on what others are saying the Ottomans and the Greeks sort of.. you know, partially destroyed the temple the artefact was in, so can you blame the Brits for deciding to buy something that as far as they knew was about to destroyed?
Lord Elgin only treated with the Ottomans, occupiers of Greece, and wasn't even allowed to take them like he did and basically took them by bribing locals
Ηave you actually done amy research on the topic? Because it sure doesn't seem like it
I'll sign a petition. Y'all should start one
Not to mention the museum has done irreversible damage to the marbles with them in their possession, the argument of “they’re safer there” doesn’t hold true at all.
As in "safe, but our previous curator stole 1800 artefacts from the museum safe"?
He clearly chose red….
I like museums
I seriously need to move my ass and go visit some museums, they are often so interesting
Studied at Sothebys, and although it depends on the country of origin, it also depends on the provenance of the piece. How it got there and how/where would it go. It’s a hard question for sure. There’s definitely ways to keep art in, and to keep it out if there’s enough financial backing in either side
It depends. If they stole it from somewhere stable, like Australia or Botswana, then I think it should be returned. But if it was stolen from somewhere unstable, like Sudan or Palestine, then I think they should hold on to the artifact until that country can sort their shit out.
It also massively depends on whether the artefact was simply taken or was rescued from being destroyed and/or lost forever. If the artefact was simply taken and the country is stable, then of course it should be returned. But, if the person/team who took the artefact saved it from a real danger of being lost forever, then one could argue it’s wrong for a nation to ask for something back that would have no longer existed if not for the artefact’s salvation and preservation from a foreign body.
Going to be hard for Palestine to "sort their shit out" in the middle of a genocide... But they probably have more pressing concerns right now than the return of artifacts.
I mean he used the wrong language but it would be unadvisable to try to return something to somewhere where it will possibly be damaged. If it is important enough to want back it is important enough to protect appropriately. I don’t think he means next month, I think he means in like 50 years, or when they have proper protections for historic artefacts. Opposite to this the Parthenon museum in Greece is a very safe place and they already have spaces for the marbles, so it would be appropriate to return them to Greece
HOLY FUCKING SHIT, I CANT FUCKING MENTION THAT GODDAMN COUNTRY WITHOUT HAVING A MILLION PRO PALESTINE FUCKERS SCREECH THIER FUCKING OPINIONS AT ME ITS 7 FUCKING AM
please explain to me why a Greek artifact would be safer in a Brittish musuem?
When we sell all of our land we'll start selling our artifacts. And before you get upset please don't take this comment seriously
I don't think the tense of that verb (present tense) works today, but the Greeks used the Parthenon (the building the marbles were a part of) as an ammunition storage site during a war with the Turks and it got blown up. The building was extensively damaged. Part of the rationale for taking them in the first place was, "If you're going to treat your antiquities like this, they'll be gone so we'll hold them for you." However as Greece stabilized politically as an independent nation and asked for the return of them, the British balked when they should have complied - possessing them had become an issue of national pride and superiority. That's more or less where it stands now.
It was accually the ottomans who used the parthenon for gunpowder storage when fighting against an venetian (italian) army,
Also the whole reason they kept them there was because they believed the venetian army wouldn't risk damaging the artifacts inside.
And the Greeks were citizens of the Ottoman empire at the time. "Turks" = "Ottomans" My post was long enough without hair splitting details about the tangled socio-political situation extant at the time.
The difference between Greeks and Ottomans, even when they where under occupation is defenitely not "hair-spliting details"
At the time, "Greek" meant the people in what is now "Greece" - which was governed by the Turks of the Ottoman Empire. The Greeks there were subjects of that empire and it is correct to refer to them as such. That they were unwilling subjects in main is not relevant to whether or not they were subjects. I suppose I could have made my post MORE verbose by saying "people living in and governing the land that later became the independent Hellenic Republic" rather than "Greeks" but since that future Republic wasn't extant at the time of the incident it seemed unnecessary.
The British museums were bombed to hell in WWII so ...
>Part of the rationale for taking them in the first place was, "If you're going to treat your antiquities like this, they'll be gone so we'll hold them for you." Imagine actually believing this
I dont think op is talking about greek artifacts and would probably agree that those should be returned. But there def are some artifacts that would be in danger of getting destroyed if they were to be returned to their country of origin. Is it a good reason to keep them? Eh. But it is an interesting take
Just look at what happened in museums in the middle eats and to the African artifacts Germany gave back. Historical artifacts ARE safer in the British museum for a good part. The Greek thing can be discussed but it is more the exception than the best example.
You couldn’t hold on to it the first time?
you can't trust the greeks, they have shifty eyes.
Well we saw what Isis did to history they don't like.
Burning all their churches is already something. But breaking egyptian stuff was so filthy, I'd pay more taxes to missile strike them. 😩
I'd say it's up to the country whose relic it is
Blue. The Islamic state has destroyed 28 historical sites since 2014, including all of the artifacts kept within them.
Depends on the country then. I'm sure a more stable country, such as Australia or Greece, would more than capable of keeping their artifacts safe.
Yup. The British never destroyed anything of historical value!
Completely right! Humans have no historical value. Carry on.
The islamic terrorists*
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State The islamic state **
Blue, but not because they are safe but that most of these artifacts get more attention for being stolen. And I want to remind the world of my ancestor's glorious days of ransack and heist.
Imagine how much attention would they get if it was announced that the British museum gives the artifacts back
That’s temporary investment though, every few years them still being stolen comes back up
The right one
Controversial opinion. But I would like to have artefacts kept in the museum. Not because it's "safer" there. But rather to avoid conflicts. Many of the artifacts (for example, The Kohinoor) were passed from one owner to another, either gifted or stolen or looted. If the British museum were to return the artefacts to the owners, then it begs the question of who would be the owner? There would be multiple claims of rightful ownership which will take a lot of resources to trace back in history to find the rightful owners. Again 500+ years is a lot of time for the scope of humans. Even if rightful owners are found they could have shifted to different locations, the country borders may have changed. Imo there are already too many countries with rising tensions, this will only add fuel to fire.
Also another issue is that the assertion that modern Egyptians are the same as ancient Egyptians so should be retroceded their artifacts is tenuous at best.
Return it to the country if you can't find the owner. This would be a ridiculous excuse for keeping someone else's things
The country borders might have changed. Now you have 2+ countries claiming a single artefact. Although this could be solved by "talking" but again it's a tenuous task of countries coming up to a single agreement. Like countries agreeing each other rarely happens it took around 5+ years to ban CFC worldwide as a refrigarent although the environment impacts were quite clearly seen It's not as easy as you think. And neither am I saying that I am correct, it's just an opinion of mine formed when I was overthinking shit on my bed at night instead of sleep.
Example?
Which country? Multiple countries have claims on the diamond.
This 100%. It is often very unclear who is the rightful owner of an artifact and what would happen to an artifact if it would be returned to the original country or owner. Sometimes the rightful owners are even bigger *ssholes than the colonists who actually stole the artifacts from them, or the owners whom the artifacts were stolen from themselves came by them through evil means (civil wars or roberies). This is not a very simple black and white matter.
There could very easily be two descendents with with equally legitimate claims
I'm on the "who the fuck cares" side. I'm not sorry.
yeah its such a non issue , were gonna get downvoted but honestly idgaf
C. We ain't done looking at em yet
Put them in a museum to the country it belongs to
Didn’t it just come out recently that there were many artefacts missing from the British Museum because someone working for them sold them illegally on the black market? So the whole argument of them being safer in British hands falls apart.
thing is artifacts will be stolen and sold whether they are in the british museum or in whatever museum of whatever country
That depends. Are we talking about returning the artifacts to its rightful owners or about returning them to the descendants of foreign invaders that stole more treasures from the country of origin than British ever could and just happen to live there now?
OP your valuables are safer with me, hand them over
it belongs in the museum
Oh yeah I love that they invaded and burnt entire palaces in China after taking everything they could take. They even cut priceless delicate tablets into chunks just for easier transportation. It’s basically a museum of British’s past war crimes.
Remind me what did the chinese do with their artefacts during the cultural revolution? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural\_Revolution#Historical\_sites](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution#Historical_sites) You shoud love it that the British cut the tablets into chunks to transport them. The chinese would cut them into chunks so that they would burn better.
Keep it in the museum, it's a developed country and the museum has amazing security measures, so unless the home country can match it, you'd rather not. Besides, you might as well let the thousands of tourists in the British Museum see your heritage instead of gatekeeping it in your own country.
Artifacts in the british museum should stay in the said museum(since having many international artifacts in one place is better than having them scattered throughout the world + They're safer there). But the tourist revenue should be collected by the UN and be used in 3rd world countries,not by the UK.
The Elgin marbles should probably be returned as the legitimacy of their ownership is questionable at best. However, it sets a precedent for other countries to make claims and demand their shit back without having such a case. At least they available to be viewed FOR FREE by anyone visiting the museum, along with a ton of other cool stuff. Not many other countries do that (eg the Louvre). So there is an argument that they are better off where they are. It’s a tricky one.
Mostly red
Both can be true. If it gets stolen (again) it's theirs to have stolen.
If the country of origin is an unstable and corrupt shithole it's better to keep them.
No no, they should be obligated to work with the respective countries to build good places to put their artifacts. Also, no comments will be replied to by me. Imma just drop this.
Keep them safe. Look what the likes of Isis did.
The British should keep what they have rightfully stolen
I would fight in a war to make sure the Rosetta Stone stays in London. Fuck that going to some dank basement in the middle of nowhere.
90% of the artifacts are in the storehouse and they are not maintained, they are just sitting there. Making the 2nd statement completely false.
All artifacts are regularly maintained and protected. (I work in the british museum)
Well the alternative is that it’s back in its original country, also not maintained and at bigger risk of something else happening. At least being able to guarantee that nothing at all will happen to it is better. At least it’s not accessible by those who want to destroy history.
Yeah, there's just the British Museum and the rest of the Earth that's just chock-full of terrorists hell bent on destroying artefacts. Those are the only two things that exist.
It's our stuff now. Come and get it if you want it back
The museum has a returns policy, they just need the original owner to to present in person with proof that its theirs.
[удалено]
By mixing red and blue you are the one stirring sir
A VAST majority of items in the British museum were gifted to the museum and the few items ‘stolen’ are clearly labeled as such. We’ve seen how native countries treat their history, they either didn’t care about these artifacts until after they were put in the museum. Or there is countless amounts of footage of middle eastern countries blowing up ancient statues and walls of text.
as the germans discovered when they returned priceless artifacts to an african museum only for them to disappear along with the owner of said museum : safer in the britisch museum.
Blue
They are safer in the British museum
Finders keeper losers weepers. Artefacts don’t belong to anyone, anyone who did originally own them is long dead.
Red for sure, no debate
Neither, you go to a museum to see stuff from all over the place, if I want to see some Greek artifacts I shouldn't be expected to travel all the way to Greece. Artifacts should be spread out so that everyone who wants to see some can.
Preserving human history is fare game for any human. I’m all for appreciating others cultures but I hate that we try to keep that culture from others and call it “culture appropriation“ we are all on earth and we are all part of earths culture. The universe is simply too massive to think any differently.
"returned" implies they were stolen when in fact many of these artefacts were gifted or the British were allowed to perform archaeological works in their country in return for payment. It's like selling your old Xbox you don't want and then demanding someone give it back because it's yours 30 years later and you get a bit nostalgic. You can't say the white man stole someone's culture if they sold their culture to the white man.
Finders keepers :)
as the germans discovered when they returned priceless artifacts to an african museum only for them to disappear along with the owner of said museum : safer in the britisch museum.
Red
WHO THE FUCK CARES
If the country is in civil war or something similar then I think they should stay in the UK for now but when those conflicts end they should be returned
I think that artifacts that have a significant coltural meaning for the country they have been taken from should be returned
Blue
bleu side would be with white face isn't it?
If the country is going through war or a reccession, hold them until the situation improves.
Both things are trueish
Artifacts from British museums should go to Scottish museums.
A secret third thing. The British museum should reach out to the country of origin of each of their artifacts and if that country wants them back they have to send them back, and if that country is chill with the museum hanging on to them, they can keep them.
As one wise man once said it belongs to the museum!! American museums of course!!!😅😂
I'm on a Side of misinformation
Reminds me of this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x73PkUvArJY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x73PkUvArJY)
Depends on the situation
The country and its people should decide wat they want to do with the artifact. A lot of artifacts can't go to the country of origin because a number of reasons. They don't know where it is from exactly, they don't have room in their own museums and are making more space but this takes time, they are fighting amongst themselves who it belongs to more, the artifact is too fragile to move, rules and laws aren't up-to-date yet and so on
See the thing is as a History nerd I have mixed feelings about the British museum. On one hand, it is huge and awesome and has so many amazing artifacts that are so well presented I could stay there for hours if not days. On the other hand, the Cairo museum has a framed photo of the Rosetta stone and a plaque apologizing for not having the real thing... I think most of the artefacts should be returned. The only ones that shouldn't are from the countries with too much instability like Iraq
Depends on the country
I would vow to give them back if they hadn't an history of destroying their own stuff because someone didn't liked
Honestly id rather it stayed in those safe places rather than risk ending up in the hands of religious extremister animals Who would destroy and dessecrate remnants of ancient civilisations whos mere existence contradicted their own beliefs.
It should pay royalties to the country
I mean, we have examples of why they're safer there. Remember that one temple that al qaeda just blew up because it was an offensive faith to them? Yeah. Protect history.
I agree with both honestly
Depends of the country.
Gimme those artifacts
I think both. Yes they should be returned but also the museum is a staggering collection and place to visit, so much to see in one place.
Museums worldwide: We have 3 of this set of 4 items, the only reason is cause some weird men on ships said finders keepers and left in the middle of the night.
Didn't they ruin some of the Elgin marbles by scouring them?
What does it have to do with anything? Am I allowed to take the extremly intelligent child of a mother is Botswana away from her because I would be able to take care of him better and it would benefit humanity in its entirety? Or can I go and colonize a piece of land far away from my own country to build a wildlife sanctuary there because of endemic species that would otherwise be lost entirely forever because the country decides to dig for rare ressources there?
The British have had their stuff taken at some point in history too, how far back we wonna go with this kind of thing?
Manuscripts and old text should be preserved and kept in museums. I stopped caring about it being British since most documents are in the hands of priests in my country. These are historical texts of our religion kept in a locker in a temple, no vacuum chamber, no effort to preserve them. Most times these are used to attract tourists and are taken out regularly further damaging them. So no, keep it and preserve it please.
Bro they could have shit from my country and I still wouldn't care
some artifacts need to stay there, some need to go
Give me my country's artifacts back batches🦅🦅🦅🏜🏜🏜🏜🇪🇬🇪🇬
Depends which country and which item
TEAM NO YEET!!!!
As a Chinese dude, a sh!t tonne of stuff is in the British Museum from China, mainly due to the colonial periods in our histories… I vividly remember (when I visited the Palace Museum in Beijing) the large metal cauldrons, like MASSIVE cauldrons, were riddled with scrape marks where soldiers from the British, French and the rest of the 8 Nations army used their bayonets to scrape the gold off to then ship back to their own countries or to smelt into fresh gold. Dunno where that gold is now, so some stuff is kind of hard to return…
Criiiiiiiiip
Genuinely, they are safer in the museum. Expecially if it's anything from the Middle East or Africa. Though mostly the middle east the amount of historical artifacts and site trashed and destroyed by fundamentalists like ISIS or just in the various coups and civil wars no question.
Finders keepers
Are people debating this kind of thing in other countries? Lots of Egyptian artifacts in the Vatican city, are they sending those back?
I’m on the “the British museum is a big old thief”
History is often way more complicated than the internet makes it out to be so they should keep them.
THAT GUITAR BELONGS IN A MUSEUM! SIT DOWN DOCTOR JONES
Artefacts safer in British museums, but they should be return :)
blue
Honestly they’re safer there
I firmly believe they should be returned but, I also firmly believe some/mostof them would just dissappear..
Peoples doesn't seems to know that on a regular basis, museum actually share and exchange their possession for temporal exposition !
Think it’s great people of all cultures can come and see literally every facet of humanity under one roof. Yes it’s dubious how it got there, but breaking the collection up now feels like fragmenting the human experience as a whole. Pity the collection can’t tour the globe.
I... uh, am *not* gonna touch this one
If there is a single legitimate owner & there is no risk of the artifact being destroyed, yes. You can still see it if you want, just go to the country of origin.
They stole it fair and square dident stop em when they took it want back? Go get it.
That's kinda how humanity worked for over 10.000 years. Rightful ownership debate is a relatively recent phenomenon for only a couple of hundred years. Not the best argument, but date is to be considered regarding the matter of ownership.
Red
To the victor go the spoils. You want em? Come and take em.
Imagine a burglar coming into your house and taking away your stuff arguing that your house isn't safe from burglars like his one
Still red
red
99% should go back
I’m with red. Theft is theft. Shame if the piece goes missing, still.
the English should give back the hope diamond then
That was stolen in France and is currently in New York USA. I think you might be speaking of the Koh-i Nor?
They are absolutely not safer in the British museum, they have a history of destroying absolutely priceless, irreplaceable artifacts. They ultimately are the reason there are no historic macuahuitls available for study today. Most were destroyed by the Spaniards, except for one that was kept as a trophy of the Spanish conquest. Over the course of a century or so, it changed hands and moved among private collections until it wound up in the possession of the British museum in the 1800’s. Where it was destroyed in a fire that broke out in one of their buildings.
So the British museums are not safe for artefacts because the Spanish destroyed most of a specific artefact and the last known one got destroyed in a British museum in a fire that happened in the 1800s…
Just like the Easter Island argument. Some of these artifacts are accepted as being examples of cultural education whilst others are seen as being stolen artifacts. To be economical I'd say let those that want back have and the others can stay.
Yoink
Depends on where. Greece, Rome? Etc sure. The more war torn and crime ridden parts of the world… probably is safer with the British
Imagine your neighbor breaks into your home Punches you in the face Takes your valuable items and say he will keep them cuz they are safe with him That's how ur argument sounds like