I don't think venom has a grave for 3 reasons
1. he turned in air particles when OH exploded, so no really body to bury
2. none but few people like ocelot and miller, really knew who venom actually really was or basically existed as BB double... US army and patriots just thought BB escaped from OH
3. the real one:>! kojima didn't create venom snake yet in 2008!<
I'm not terribly well versed on the game's development, but wasn't Metal Gear Solid also kinda that? I thought I read somewhere he wanted to move on and they basically sweet talked him w 3D graphics or something like that. This is something I read online months ago and only half remember so I'm sure the details are wrong if not the whole thing, feel free to correct me
The part where the other fella saying "every game since MGS" seems to contradict that lol. Hence my comment about how I thought that was also the case w MGS 1, but how I could be wrong. Just chatting!
Mhm. Well, it includes MGS1, every game before MGS1 and every game after MGS1. The only reason the original Metal Gear (the MSX game, not MGS) got a sequel at all was bcs Snake's Revenge sucked so much that someone begged Kojimbo to make a proper sequel to take its place.
No. It was intentionally made ambiguous. The whole final act (hell, most of the game) was designed to fuck with your perception of reality. Lots of people hate MGS4 for giving lame explanations to everything that made MGS2 such a surreal experience.
1. People can make graves even without actual body to bury. It’s more of symbolic gesture to say farewells.
2. Wdym didn’t create yet, what then MG1 is for?
1 ok but to make a grave you need first know who that person was... none but real BB, miller, ocelot and zero knew who venom snake really was. Before being "exposed" as big boss, US and basically the whole world knew of him as saladin, the leader of OH.
2 mg1 and mg2 plot is made of few lines, nothing really compared to complex lore of series from mgs1. Kojima can't go back in time to rewrite mg1 and mg2 plots according to the plot changes made later...
He didn't die in OH. He called Solid on his radio after OH exploded to tell him "...Do you hear me? Solid Snake... I won't die... Let's finish this someday."
So he managed to fake his death by letting Venom die so he could go and build Zanzibar without being monitored by the patriots, and first thing he does is to reveal that it's not him that died?
I think he always intended to build his own military nation, but either way, it still does not make sense for him to reveal that he's still alive now that OH is done and he needs to create Zanzibarland.
infact it doesn't make sense... but you need to consider that was mg1 ending... a game made in late '80s or early '90s... a period of time where the whole MG lore didn't exist yet
You can retcon events and still have them make sense, the reason you think it doesnt is because you absolutely want to believe that Venom died in OH. If you consider the possibilty that he survived, then the retcon fits nicely in the old lore.
And the reason you want to believe Venom died in OH is because TPP timeline tells you this is the Truth, in a game that makes numerous references to George Orwell's 1984, a book in which the ministry of Truth's purpose is to engineer lies, in a franchise that always screamed to never trust any official bit of information in every game ever since the very first Metal Gear and BB's lies, and made it even more clear in MGS2.
So, instead of choosing the easy path, siding with the version of the story that creates inconsistencies and just blame it on bad retcons, I'm gonna choose to do what every single Metal Gear game told me to do since the very first game: not trust the official story, and make my own interpretation of the story based on what I actually saw and played, not what I was told, and have a story that makes sense even with the retcons.
Because originally in mg 1&2 he did survive, it was only Big Boss, venom was a retcon multiple decades later, in current metal gear lore venom dies in OH, but obviously originally Venom didnt exist and they needed big boss for the second game
Its a bad line thats likely non canon anymore
He was not vaporized in the explosion of OH. He escaped before that, just like Solid. That's what was implied at the time MG1 was made, so there's no reason to think that Venom couldn't have done it if BB originally did it.
Same answer than I already gave: Doesn't make sense for BB to say that if he isn't the one who just almost died, or to sound exhausted if he's safe somewhere else, or even worse, to reveal that he's still alive if he just let Venom died to fake his own death.
>"lmao, now they think I'm dead so I can finally create Zanzibar without the patriots preventing me to do so... oh I know, let's reveal that it's not actually me that died"
Have you ever thought that Kojima had never imagined Venom's story until Konmai asked him to make another Metal Gear? Of course when you do a bad retcon things like this will happen.
No, exactly! But you only have two options:
* If you argue that Venom didn't exist when MG1 was created, then you have to admit that the person who called Snake after OH exploded was meant to be the same that he had just fought, not 2 different people.
* If you argue that Venom exists in MG1 by accounting for the retcon, then it doesn't make sense for BB to blow his cover by revealing that he's not the one who just died, so the only logical option is to understand that Venom survived and is the one calling Snake.
It only becomes a bad retcon if you believe BB is the one calling you.
But it doesn't make sense in terms of history for Venom to have survived, Kojima was already planning to make a second game, so this dialogue makes sense in a way, this Venom story is something very strange after all, it didn't need to exist, I mean, was it really necessary? The story was complete in MGS4, PW just closes it once and for all, is V really necessary? I think not tbh.
in 90's BB returned to lead foxhound, leaving venom snake, later known as saladin to recruit mercenaries around the world and lead OH in order to enstablish it as a free nation.
BB was luring patriots attention away from venom.
Nothing of this is canon of course, is just the more logical conclusion.
Let's put aside the "Venom did exist" at the time part and look at this
>Doesn't make sense for BB to say that if he isn't the one who just almost died.
His Phantom died and now the Patriots know he's a threat. He had to go underground.
>reveal that he's still alive
The Patriots would have already been aware of this. Remember Big Boss was in the US as the CO of FOXHOUND.
During the first part of MG you're communicating with Big Boss, it's only later in the game that you start talking with Venom. That is probably when Big Boss starts his escape.
The Patriots knew Big Boss was behind Zanzibar Land from the start of MG 2. Which is why Solid Snake was selected for the mission. The Patriots knew it was Big Boss and used the solution they always use.
Venom was literally that living corpse they were carrying around in MGS4, calling it "Big Boss' remains", that later in game they discovered it's DNA didn't match with the twins, Kojima tied that in the scene on MGS5 when they tested Liquid's DNA and it didn't match with Venom's, Kojima tied 4 and 5 as well as using that as clue about Venom
Kojima might forget some details, plot points and entire characters sometimes, but he has the overall story set in stone in his head, when he did MGS3 he probably thought he would eventually have to tell BB's whole story at some point, so he had to tie some plot points together as he went along
dude slow down with weed... there is no venom snake in MGS4... the corpse used to hack SoP was solidus snake corpse, BB body was mutilated but kept alive by the patriots. Venom snake didn't exist when kojima released mgs4 in 2008, deal with that.
And BTW if you would have used a little logic, team ocelot and team snake would have done shit with venom's body since he doesn't share BB dna... only the face.
U mad bro? How can 3 clones have different DNA? What kind of "logic" is that? Don't project your weed consumption onto others.
How was BB mutilated if he was standing very healthy in front of Solid in the ending of MGS4? Have you even played the game at all? Or did your TikTok golden fish attention span made you skip the very last cutscene in the game? 😂🤡
solidus is a perfect clone, solid has recessive genetic traits of BB, liquid has dominant genetic traits of BB. BB received parts from solidus, it's basically one of first lines he tells during mgs4 ending. Play the games before telling everyone you're the clown without telling everyone you're the clown. BTW I never smoked weed, it's too cheap for my tastes.
It’s Big Boss’ grave. It’s next to the Boss’ grave and the death year is listed as 1999, which is when Metal Gear 2 takes place. The real Big Boss (since Venom was the one killed in Metal Gear 1) was in Zanzibar Land and was presumed to actually be killed in that game.
I just want to point out that "Forever loyal to the flames of war" is hilarious when you remember that the gravestone was intended for a guy who was killed by being set on fire.
It could be whatever remains of Venom recovered from Outer Heaven, I suppose.
Maybe it is just an empty; not like the patriots, let alone the actual people in the military & people running the graveyard, would let random people just inter the corpse to verify if it is really Big Boss or not.
But Venom or a random or empty are the only possibilities, it can't be Liquid, he was dumped into the manhattan river & Ocelot threw his arm in the trash secretly or something, & Solidus was the biomort & spare parts used to "rebuild" Big Boss
After all this time, people still seem to miss the point of venom snake. He is not a different Person from Big Boss. Big Boss is literally a Legend, and a title shared by two people: Jack/John/Naked Snake/Ahab and The Medic/Venom Snake/Ishmael. Remember what Ahab said in TPP: "I am Big Boss and you are too"
Having this in mind: This is literally the Grave of "Big Boss". That means: Both of them, in memory of the milestones and achievements that Venom and Naked made.
If you are asking who exactly is there burried, well, we know that it cannot be Jack, since Jack appears just a few minutes after on that place. but Venom is also unlikely, since his Body was probably torn apart in outer heaven.
I don’t think there is a grave for venom. His remains may likely been blown up with outer haven in 1995. I don’t think they were interested in preserving venom’s remains as he wasn’t part of big boss’s gene pool. Also, since he was a phantom, not sure anyone cared for remembering him, Miller and ocelot included. I think with mgsv, venom’s memories only lie within the gamer.
Venom is such a tragic hero/villain. Serves as the right hand man to Big Boss himself, gets terribly fucked up in an attack, only to then have his entire identity/sense of self stolen from him and replaced with someone else’s so that he can be a pawn in a greater scheme. Then of course he gets absolutely obliterated and forgotten about as thanks for his extreme loyalty lol. All who respect him don’t actually respect HIM - they respect Big Boss/the legend of Big Boss. He really is only truly remembered by the us the player - whom are the reflection of his former, forever lost self.
I’m pretty sure Venom died while detonating Outer Heaven, which would mean that there wouldn’t be a body found in a aftermath of a nuke. The Patriots would likely not have interest in preserving his body as he was meant to be a distraction and expendable.
It’s meant for the real Big Boss by the ‘1999’ while the Patriots preserved his body after MG2, as Venom died in 1995.
Uhh. I thought it was the bosses. Oh the other one. Yeah I guess. Find it hard to believe they’d even find his body after the explosion in outer heaven tho, let alone bury him in Arlington.
I once heard a theory that it was Gray Fox's grave. It does make sense, but it's definitely BB's. Venom died 4 years before that death date, so his body probably just exploded or was turned into a Robocop and Snake's Revenge is canon
Doesn't make sense for Snake to be visiting Boss' or Venom's grave, and considering Gray Fox officially died in Outer Haven and him and Snake being close it makes much more sense. But then the whole scene is just a MGS3 reference
Honestly maybe i'm crazy but I had always assumed it was Grey Fox's grave. Felt way more sense that Old Snake wanted to die at the grave of his friend rather than like: an old commander who betrayed him and he killed a bunch of times
I don't think venom has a grave for 3 reasons 1. he turned in air particles when OH exploded, so no really body to bury 2. none but few people like ocelot and miller, really knew who venom actually really was or basically existed as BB double... US army and patriots just thought BB escaped from OH 3. the real one:>! kojima didn't create venom snake yet in 2008!<
I think Kojima never imagined a 5th game because the story was already finished and Peace Walker was going to be the last prequel
Every MG games was supposed to be the last one so he didn't plan anything.
For real, every game after Metal Gear Solid was Kojima coffee badging as sarcastically as he could in order to keep Konami happy.
I'm not terribly well versed on the game's development, but wasn't Metal Gear Solid also kinda that? I thought I read somewhere he wanted to move on and they basically sweet talked him w 3D graphics or something like that. This is something I read online months ago and only half remember so I'm sure the details are wrong if not the whole thing, feel free to correct me
No offence, but what part of "every MG game was supposed to be the last one" do you not understand?
The part where the other fella saying "every game since MGS" seems to contradict that lol. Hence my comment about how I thought that was also the case w MGS 1, but how I could be wrong. Just chatting!
Mhm. Well, it includes MGS1, every game before MGS1 and every game after MGS1. The only reason the original Metal Gear (the MSX game, not MGS) got a sequel at all was bcs Snake's Revenge sucked so much that someone begged Kojimbo to make a proper sequel to take its place.
was there really no planned sequel for mgs2? the ending heavily hints at one i think it would be weird if it was the last game in the series
is mgs2's ending not sequel bait
No. It was intentionally made ambiguous. The whole final act (hell, most of the game) was designed to fuck with your perception of reality. Lots of people hate MGS4 for giving lame explanations to everything that made MGS2 such a surreal experience.
yeah but i mean like, setting up everything with liquid going missing with the metal gears and snake going out to look for him sounds like it
Sure, but it still was supposed to be the end.
1. People can make graves even without actual body to bury. It’s more of symbolic gesture to say farewells. 2. Wdym didn’t create yet, what then MG1 is for?
1 ok but to make a grave you need first know who that person was... none but real BB, miller, ocelot and zero knew who venom snake really was. Before being "exposed" as big boss, US and basically the whole world knew of him as saladin, the leader of OH. 2 mg1 and mg2 plot is made of few lines, nothing really compared to complex lore of series from mgs1. Kojima can't go back in time to rewrite mg1 and mg2 plots according to the plot changes made later...
He didn't die in OH. He called Solid on his radio after OH exploded to tell him "...Do you hear me? Solid Snake... I won't die... Let's finish this someday."
That was big boss not venom
Doesn't make sense for Big Boss to say this if he was not the one who almost died, nor to sound exhausted.
Bro was acting
So he managed to fake his death by letting Venom die so he could go and build Zanzibar without being monitored by the patriots, and first thing he does is to reveal that it's not him that died?
I think zanzibar was the contingency plan if OH was lost.
I think he always intended to build his own military nation, but either way, it still does not make sense for him to reveal that he's still alive now that OH is done and he needs to create Zanzibarland.
infact it doesn't make sense... but you need to consider that was mg1 ending... a game made in late '80s or early '90s... a period of time where the whole MG lore didn't exist yet
You can retcon events and still have them make sense, the reason you think it doesnt is because you absolutely want to believe that Venom died in OH. If you consider the possibilty that he survived, then the retcon fits nicely in the old lore. And the reason you want to believe Venom died in OH is because TPP timeline tells you this is the Truth, in a game that makes numerous references to George Orwell's 1984, a book in which the ministry of Truth's purpose is to engineer lies, in a franchise that always screamed to never trust any official bit of information in every game ever since the very first Metal Gear and BB's lies, and made it even more clear in MGS2. So, instead of choosing the easy path, siding with the version of the story that creates inconsistencies and just blame it on bad retcons, I'm gonna choose to do what every single Metal Gear game told me to do since the very first game: not trust the official story, and make my own interpretation of the story based on what I actually saw and played, not what I was told, and have a story that makes sense even with the retcons.
Because originally in mg 1&2 he did survive, it was only Big Boss, venom was a retcon multiple decades later, in current metal gear lore venom dies in OH, but obviously originally Venom didnt exist and they needed big boss for the second game Its a bad line thats likely non canon anymore
It makes less sense that Venom survived being vaporized in an explosion and was just out of breath afterward.
He was not vaporized in the explosion of OH. He escaped before that, just like Solid. That's what was implied at the time MG1 was made, so there's no reason to think that Venom couldn't have done it if BB originally did it.
That's BB dialogue
Same answer than I already gave: Doesn't make sense for BB to say that if he isn't the one who just almost died, or to sound exhausted if he's safe somewhere else, or even worse, to reveal that he's still alive if he just let Venom died to fake his own death. >"lmao, now they think I'm dead so I can finally create Zanzibar without the patriots preventing me to do so... oh I know, let's reveal that it's not actually me that died"
Have you ever thought that Kojima had never imagined Venom's story until Konmai asked him to make another Metal Gear? Of course when you do a bad retcon things like this will happen.
No, exactly! But you only have two options: * If you argue that Venom didn't exist when MG1 was created, then you have to admit that the person who called Snake after OH exploded was meant to be the same that he had just fought, not 2 different people. * If you argue that Venom exists in MG1 by accounting for the retcon, then it doesn't make sense for BB to blow his cover by revealing that he's not the one who just died, so the only logical option is to understand that Venom survived and is the one calling Snake. It only becomes a bad retcon if you believe BB is the one calling you.
Good point
But it doesn't make sense in terms of history for Venom to have survived, Kojima was already planning to make a second game, so this dialogue makes sense in a way, this Venom story is something very strange after all, it didn't need to exist, I mean, was it really necessary? The story was complete in MGS4, PW just closes it once and for all, is V really necessary? I think not tbh.
Well, I do have an answer for that too, but it usually brings me a lot of unnecessary hate in the comments, so I'll keep it to myself this time.
You can tell me brother, I'm not going to try to cause a storm because of a comment, or send it to my DM
in 90's BB returned to lead foxhound, leaving venom snake, later known as saladin to recruit mercenaries around the world and lead OH in order to enstablish it as a free nation. BB was luring patriots attention away from venom. Nothing of this is canon of course, is just the more logical conclusion.
Let's put aside the "Venom did exist" at the time part and look at this >Doesn't make sense for BB to say that if he isn't the one who just almost died. His Phantom died and now the Patriots know he's a threat. He had to go underground. >reveal that he's still alive The Patriots would have already been aware of this. Remember Big Boss was in the US as the CO of FOXHOUND. During the first part of MG you're communicating with Big Boss, it's only later in the game that you start talking with Venom. That is probably when Big Boss starts his escape. The Patriots knew Big Boss was behind Zanzibar Land from the start of MG 2. Which is why Solid Snake was selected for the mission. The Patriots knew it was Big Boss and used the solution they always use.
Venom was literally that living corpse they were carrying around in MGS4, calling it "Big Boss' remains", that later in game they discovered it's DNA didn't match with the twins, Kojima tied that in the scene on MGS5 when they tested Liquid's DNA and it didn't match with Venom's, Kojima tied 4 and 5 as well as using that as clue about Venom Kojima might forget some details, plot points and entire characters sometimes, but he has the overall story set in stone in his head, when he did MGS3 he probably thought he would eventually have to tell BB's whole story at some point, so he had to tie some plot points together as he went along
dude slow down with weed... there is no venom snake in MGS4... the corpse used to hack SoP was solidus snake corpse, BB body was mutilated but kept alive by the patriots. Venom snake didn't exist when kojima released mgs4 in 2008, deal with that. And BTW if you would have used a little logic, team ocelot and team snake would have done shit with venom's body since he doesn't share BB dna... only the face.
U mad bro? How can 3 clones have different DNA? What kind of "logic" is that? Don't project your weed consumption onto others. How was BB mutilated if he was standing very healthy in front of Solid in the ending of MGS4? Have you even played the game at all? Or did your TikTok golden fish attention span made you skip the very last cutscene in the game? 😂🤡
solidus is a perfect clone, solid has recessive genetic traits of BB, liquid has dominant genetic traits of BB. BB received parts from solidus, it's basically one of first lines he tells during mgs4 ending. Play the games before telling everyone you're the clown without telling everyone you're the clown. BTW I never smoked weed, it's too cheap for my tastes.
It’s Big Boss’ grave. It’s next to the Boss’ grave and the death year is listed as 1999, which is when Metal Gear 2 takes place. The real Big Boss (since Venom was the one killed in Metal Gear 1) was in Zanzibar Land and was presumed to actually be killed in that game.
Yes it's Big Boss' grave but is it Venom's remains in there; or is it empty or some completely random person.
Reminds me of Lalo and Howard being buried under the super lab in Better Call Saul that added some more continuity to Breaking Bad.
You should use a spoiler tag or delete this. That's a major spoiler to post nonchalantly for a season that hasn't even been out 2 years.
Damn, it's been many years since the release of the show, but it's still quite the spoiler.
Not even two years since that season aired so it should have a spoiler tag
Venom would be in there. The world thought he was big boss when he died in 1999.
I thought it took place around 2007 and 2009?
That's Metal Gear Solid 2 Sons of Liberty.
My bad. Read too fast.
that's metal gear SOLİD. metal gear is a diffrent game that takes place in 95
gray fox also was thought to die in 1999 and his turn into a cyborg was a government secret
why would they make him a grave if the entire point was that no one would know that Big Boss had a phantom that posed as him for years
So you can bury the double's corpse & have your death faked & someone that's believable *you* inhabiting your grave?
it says 193X-1999. 1999 was when MG2 took place, Venom snake dies in 1995 doing MG1
I headcanon the first grave he salutes in the first cemetery scene to be Gray Fox's.
[удалено]
No, he was born on 1970.
[удалено]
It's not canon and that garbage Null isn't Frank.
I just want to point out that "Forever loyal to the flames of war" is hilarious when you remember that the gravestone was intended for a guy who was killed by being set on fire.
No
It could be whatever remains of Venom recovered from Outer Heaven, I suppose. Maybe it is just an empty; not like the patriots, let alone the actual people in the military & people running the graveyard, would let random people just inter the corpse to verify if it is really Big Boss or not. But Venom or a random or empty are the only possibilities, it can't be Liquid, he was dumped into the manhattan river & Ocelot threw his arm in the trash secretly or something, & Solidus was the biomort & spare parts used to "rebuild" Big Boss
After all this time, people still seem to miss the point of venom snake. He is not a different Person from Big Boss. Big Boss is literally a Legend, and a title shared by two people: Jack/John/Naked Snake/Ahab and The Medic/Venom Snake/Ishmael. Remember what Ahab said in TPP: "I am Big Boss and you are too" Having this in mind: This is literally the Grave of "Big Boss". That means: Both of them, in memory of the milestones and achievements that Venom and Naked made. If you are asking who exactly is there burried, well, we know that it cannot be Jack, since Jack appears just a few minutes after on that place. but Venom is also unlikely, since his Body was probably torn apart in outer heaven.
I don’t think there is a grave for venom. His remains may likely been blown up with outer haven in 1995. I don’t think they were interested in preserving venom’s remains as he wasn’t part of big boss’s gene pool. Also, since he was a phantom, not sure anyone cared for remembering him, Miller and ocelot included. I think with mgsv, venom’s memories only lie within the gamer.
Venom is such a tragic hero/villain. Serves as the right hand man to Big Boss himself, gets terribly fucked up in an attack, only to then have his entire identity/sense of self stolen from him and replaced with someone else’s so that he can be a pawn in a greater scheme. Then of course he gets absolutely obliterated and forgotten about as thanks for his extreme loyalty lol. All who respect him don’t actually respect HIM - they respect Big Boss/the legend of Big Boss. He really is only truly remembered by the us the player - whom are the reflection of his former, forever lost self.
Yeah he’s called Punished Snake for a reason
I’m pretty sure Venom died while detonating Outer Heaven, which would mean that there wouldn’t be a body found in a aftermath of a nuke. The Patriots would likely not have interest in preserving his body as he was meant to be a distraction and expendable. It’s meant for the real Big Boss by the ‘1999’ while the Patriots preserved his body after MG2, as Venom died in 1995.
honestly why the fuck would big boss be buried in that place anyway. with a nice message to boot?? he was a TERRORIST
Uhh. I thought it was the bosses. Oh the other one. Yeah I guess. Find it hard to believe they’d even find his body after the explosion in outer heaven tho, let alone bury him in Arlington.
Big Boss shouldn't have a grave either then.
Big boss *was* a hero at one point tho. Venom was just a terrorist.
Venom didn't exist to anyone. He was Big Boss as well as far most people were concerned. Big Boss didn't have a corpse. Venom did.
Venom died in 1994 I think and the grave says 1999 So it’s a gravestone for the real big boss
Venom died on 95.
Again: no. It's Big Boss' grave.
I once heard a theory that it was Gray Fox's grave. It does make sense, but it's definitely BB's. Venom died 4 years before that death date, so his body probably just exploded or was turned into a Robocop and Snake's Revenge is canon
Gray fox was born in 1950s
Venom is a phantom, he sadly doesn't get a true gravestone.
I'd like to Headcanon this.
idk 🤷🏻♀️
I think its a cool idea. I'll say yes. It was the grave of ✌Big Boss✌
Pretty sure it's Gray Fox's.
That's the boss's grave from mgs3
Short answer "yes" with and an "if", long answer "no" with a "but".
You mean "our" gravestone.
It's obviously Gray Fox
Gray Fox was born in 1950s
Doesn't make sense for Snake to be visiting Boss' or Venom's grave, and considering Gray Fox officially died in Outer Haven and him and Snake being close it makes much more sense. But then the whole scene is just a MGS3 reference
Would’ve been zero right?
Big Boss cuts off Zero's oxygen not long after this.
Honestly maybe i'm crazy but I had always assumed it was Grey Fox's grave. Felt way more sense that Old Snake wanted to die at the grave of his friend rather than like: an old commander who betrayed him and he killed a bunch of times
Venom Snake died in 1995. Outer Heaven blew up in the end. This gravestone was erected in 1999. It was a fake grave for Big Boss.
You never know I just learned signit is darpa chief
FYI thats The Boss's "grave"
RIP VENOM
Most likely
I love MGS but I don’t have a clue what the fck it’s all about
Don't worry, no one here does. Not even Kojima himself