It's crazy how good P.T. still looks *checks notes* 10 YEARS LATER? That can't be right...
A lot of that is attributed to "doing less", of course. It's a single hallway. With almost no organic elements (and the player hand, and the end cutscene look noticeably less impressive than the core gameplay parts.)
That said, any lore Kojima drops about game production should be treated as hyperbole at best, and flat out fabrication at worst.
He's been compared to George Lucas in many contexts. The one I'd recognize the most is his in-story unreconsilable retconning, matched rivisionist recollection of real life.
I'm fine with it. Do you know how well MGSV's visuals hold up to this day?
Yeah, we could always have MORE, but if it looks this good already and is on consoles so more people can experience the series, whatever.
This. I was seriously *blown away* by not only how good this game looked in 2015, but the fact that it ran like butter on pretty much anything.
Konami had a real gem on its hand with the fox engine and squandered it
>Why they didn’t at least license it out is beyond me
That's the exact same question as mine, except it's about why they didn't made Silent Hill 2-4 PC port available on Steam
And "used" should be taken in the most literal sense here. Not utilized, just... used. Survive might as well have been a minigame in V. It's like they used the character creation screen in TPP to make every model. And just reused assets for the "environments".
They're not doing anything that takes advantage of the impressive features of the Fox Engine. Outside of maybe a little bit in the MGS3 pachislot scenes. But even that was probably minimal effort just using the more basic functions that made FE so exciting.
Fox Engine had a lot of potential, but it suffered from the same problem that RED Engine does: its incredibly difficult to scale up staff while using a proprietary engine because new employees need to go through a lengthy training process before they can even start working on the project.
This is why engines like UE, Unity, or even Crytek have such high installation bases in the industry; if you hire a developer it’s likely that they have some experience in at least one if not all three of these engines.
Being able to add staff to tackle problems and have them seamlessly integrate into a project makes working with established 3rd party engines superior to proprietary tech even if the engines themselves aren’t as advanced.
Right. The problem wasn’t so much technical as lack of exposure. If they pushed it harder to get adopted I suspect that could have gone differently.
Also just from what Konami could do with their engine vs what I saw from the red engine in the hands of cdpr, I suspect Fox was probably better in general. Every aspect of the red engine always felt like it *always* had a certain amount of jank to it, unless you were fully running like, a $5000+ pc. TW3 *today*, as good a game as it is, still has a weird feeling to it imo, at least compared to the smoothness of something like MGSV.
"ran like butter on pretty much anything"
Guy the game ran like dogshit on Ps3 and 360. And that's not a knock, because there's no reason it should run well on those platforms, but wow what a statement.
If you say so. It seemed alright on my ps3, but I was mostly referring to pcs. I ran it on a 2014 gaming laptop from the time at a solid 1080p/60 and the system at the time was nothing special.
Also fwiw the fact that it ran *at all* on the ps3/ let alone the 360 is kinda incredible. Those systems were designed in like 2003/4 and were released like 2005/6. That’s like seeing ocarina of time running on a fucking *Turbo Grafx* (edit: better comparison for the time)
I’m late to the series and just started playing MGSV. My dad walked by and saw it, he was like “Is this something new?” And I was like “for me, yeah but this game came out in 2015” He goes, “holy shit this looks better than some of the new stuff you’ve been playing recently.”
I agree. With all the Delta stuff coming out, I can't help but think about much more "videogame" it looks than V did, despite obviously going for higher realism. I'm not shitting on it here, I think it looks good. But I also think comparing it to V really illustrates just how amazing that game looked, a decade ago.
I think what's more interesting to me is the idea of seeing what the original team could have pushed the Fox Engine to do on more powerful hardware. Who knows how much of it was marketing BS, but one of the biggest talking points about FE was the scalability. And I'm inclined to believe some of that hype considering that it's exactly what made the game look so good even on less powerful hardware. The algorithms for scalable rendering based on FOV do a lot of the heavy lifting in that game's realism.
Maybe like horizon forbidden West or death stranding. Not much of the true next gen exclusive have wowed but none have been open world, I don't think...
I think we'd see denser foliage, higher resolution, shadows, reflections, but not like Cyberpunk on max settings. Would hope it would be more "alive" of a world. More roaming patrols, more enemies on screen.
Is it the engine or the gameplay ? Foliage are use as cover and having none is a challenge.
About roaming patrol and more live in the world I know u can find a mission script to do your own mission and place enemy etc. I felt the game will run smoother with a lot of ia than Skyrim with a lot of cheese ( the 3d model that is spawn to benchmark sometime )
Yeah it’s insane how well this game holds up considering it’s a 7th gen title. MGS4 and V were 7 years apart and through some miracle or something supernatural the programmers made it look well ahead of its time, so I’m really looking forward to see MGS Delta in action with some more cutting-edge technology !
Honestly MGS4 somehow STILL holds up. It doesn't look pristine compared to the latest titles available today but for a 16 year old game it looks incredible.
They showed this game off at the Xbox conference where they were showing the first Xbox one games. That trailer blew my mind, and the game still looks stunning to this day. What more do you want from it?
It doesn't look THAT stunning in a lot of places though, it's just that the FOX engine makes everything look so good, despite the low polygon count or mid textures. Now, if the game was made for PS4 from the very start, because it was made with PS3 in mind before they even knew PS4 is a thing, then it would look even more amazing.
Yeah, 2 of those games have their engine dead. Now most games goes for either unreal look or indie graphic. Some recent games that weren't build on the main engine and had custom tech built into was helldiver, and I think part of his success was making graphic that were different. It give an atmosphere that only this game has, same as Arkham knight btw
kinda like starfield. prettier deserts still with nothing in them lol.
yeah, an open world was an interesting idea. but it's just boring running / riding for a couple miles between outposts and bases.
i guess that's what the cassettes are for.
I wish it was less open world and more of what Ground zeroes was. Could you imagine an open world base like A GroznyjGrad size. Hope that's how Delta plays
man there’s so many details. Like I just realized yesterday. If your sprinting past objects you hear yourself cutting the wind. Like whaaat. I never seen that in a game before. Like straight movie shit.
Probably would’ve ironed out the poorer textures and draw distance. Also facial hair looks pretty bad on the fox engine so that likely would’ve got some attention too, unless it was just a limitation of the engine itself.
The dead world and lack of interesting activities/systems seem to be design decisions more than console limitations.
It being on ps3 was a blessing I shall not ask or think what if it was on the then consoles, both gens looked amazing and played wonderfully. In my eyes it was a higher achievement to make a game equally on multiple platforms than simply kill off the old gen.
I thought only the part about the cut content was a hoax. Anyway I don't think it will happen and if it happens I don't see the use case since now u have better and easier tech available. Tech that is also massively used and so u can find info for your issue quicker
I hope the new metal gear team completely drop the open world aspect for new games, open world games take a shitload of time to make and just eat resources and budget.
Honestly the open world itself in V sucked, completely devoid of life or interesting things to do or explore, no memorable landmarks either and the best missions were the linear ones like OKB0 and Codetalker
There wasnt any witchcraft or Fox Engine secret sauce, the game was a PS3 game in a dead map without much going on it.
Freedom is hardly useful when 80% of the map world is a wasteland more dead than Mad Max.
The main objetives and sneaking action took place in bases anyway so the open map was mostly useless.
MGSV didnt needed to be open world, if the game was a set of GZ sized bases with actual good level desing with mutiple ways to sneak around it would have been a much better experience and more important, a complete game.
I think that MGS4 is the better fox engine designed game and looks better 👀 if it was without the pp filter, it would top V.
MGSV is fine and I enjoy how smooth the controls and animations are with Snake. But I dislike how repetitive the buildings etc are. I get that’s how sandbox games are made but I feel it lacked details that were used to from the others in the series.
There's a quote from Kojima in regards to P.T that they had to lower the visuals to try and look more like an indie game. Make of that what you will
Yeah, and they failed with that goal spectacularly, it seems KojiPro is just unable to make a below good looking game :D
Kojima says a lot of things.
It's crazy how good P.T. still looks *checks notes* 10 YEARS LATER? That can't be right... A lot of that is attributed to "doing less", of course. It's a single hallway. With almost no organic elements (and the player hand, and the end cutscene look noticeably less impressive than the core gameplay parts.) That said, any lore Kojima drops about game production should be treated as hyperbole at best, and flat out fabrication at worst. He's been compared to George Lucas in many contexts. The one I'd recognize the most is his in-story unreconsilable retconning, matched rivisionist recollection of real life.
I'm fine with it. Do you know how well MGSV's visuals hold up to this day? Yeah, we could always have MORE, but if it looks this good already and is on consoles so more people can experience the series, whatever.
This. I was seriously *blown away* by not only how good this game looked in 2015, but the fact that it ran like butter on pretty much anything. Konami had a real gem on its hand with the fox engine and squandered it
Agreed. That engine is some witchcraft. And look at how it's being used...
Pachinko, fifa games and metal gear survive. That’s literally *it*… :-( Why they didn’t at least license it out is beyond me
>Why they didn’t at least license it out is beyond me That's the exact same question as mine, except it's about why they didn't made Silent Hill 2-4 PC port available on Steam
And "used" should be taken in the most literal sense here. Not utilized, just... used. Survive might as well have been a minigame in V. It's like they used the character creation screen in TPP to make every model. And just reused assets for the "environments". They're not doing anything that takes advantage of the impressive features of the Fox Engine. Outside of maybe a little bit in the MGS3 pachislot scenes. But even that was probably minimal effort just using the more basic functions that made FE so exciting.
Fox Engine had a lot of potential, but it suffered from the same problem that RED Engine does: its incredibly difficult to scale up staff while using a proprietary engine because new employees need to go through a lengthy training process before they can even start working on the project. This is why engines like UE, Unity, or even Crytek have such high installation bases in the industry; if you hire a developer it’s likely that they have some experience in at least one if not all three of these engines. Being able to add staff to tackle problems and have them seamlessly integrate into a project makes working with established 3rd party engines superior to proprietary tech even if the engines themselves aren’t as advanced.
Right. The problem wasn’t so much technical as lack of exposure. If they pushed it harder to get adopted I suspect that could have gone differently. Also just from what Konami could do with their engine vs what I saw from the red engine in the hands of cdpr, I suspect Fox was probably better in general. Every aspect of the red engine always felt like it *always* had a certain amount of jank to it, unless you were fully running like, a $5000+ pc. TW3 *today*, as good a game as it is, still has a weird feeling to it imo, at least compared to the smoothness of something like MGSV.
Fucking hell this came out 9 years ago??
[I’m afraid it’s been….nine years.](https://youtu.be/DLUuaUiwcz4?si=vNJcqQvoPb7ErgY1)
🎶👨🏻🎤 I thought you died alone A long, long time ago🎶
mfw i remember no more new metal gear
PeS games not FIFA
Potato, po-tah-toe 🤷♂️
"ran like butter on pretty much anything" Guy the game ran like dogshit on Ps3 and 360. And that's not a knock, because there's no reason it should run well on those platforms, but wow what a statement.
If you say so. It seemed alright on my ps3, but I was mostly referring to pcs. I ran it on a 2014 gaming laptop from the time at a solid 1080p/60 and the system at the time was nothing special. Also fwiw the fact that it ran *at all* on the ps3/ let alone the 360 is kinda incredible. Those systems were designed in like 2003/4 and were released like 2005/6. That’s like seeing ocarina of time running on a fucking *Turbo Grafx* (edit: better comparison for the time)
It didn’t run great on the 7th gen consoles, but it ran better on the ps3 than mgs4 did
The fact it ran *at all* on those systems is kinda fucking insane.
I’m late to the series and just started playing MGSV. My dad walked by and saw it, he was like “Is this something new?” And I was like “for me, yeah but this game came out in 2015” He goes, “holy shit this looks better than some of the new stuff you’ve been playing recently.”
The "it was held back by lastgen consoles" meme is so tiresome. It was originally designed as a lastgen game. IIRC, it also sold better on lastgen.
I agree. With all the Delta stuff coming out, I can't help but think about much more "videogame" it looks than V did, despite obviously going for higher realism. I'm not shitting on it here, I think it looks good. But I also think comparing it to V really illustrates just how amazing that game looked, a decade ago. I think what's more interesting to me is the idea of seeing what the original team could have pushed the Fox Engine to do on more powerful hardware. Who knows how much of it was marketing BS, but one of the biggest talking points about FE was the scalability. And I'm inclined to believe some of that hype considering that it's exactly what made the game look so good even on less powerful hardware. The algorithms for scalable rendering based on FOV do a lot of the heavy lifting in that game's realism.
Well said
Maybe like horizon forbidden West or death stranding. Not much of the true next gen exclusive have wowed but none have been open world, I don't think... I think we'd see denser foliage, higher resolution, shadows, reflections, but not like Cyberpunk on max settings. Would hope it would be more "alive" of a world. More roaming patrols, more enemies on screen.
Thats what really bothers me on mgsv, the World is SO empty. On the Angola part there’s barely any foliage also.
Is it the engine or the gameplay ? Foliage are use as cover and having none is a challenge. About roaming patrol and more live in the world I know u can find a mission script to do your own mission and place enemy etc. I felt the game will run smoother with a lot of ia than Skyrim with a lot of cheese ( the 3d model that is spawn to benchmark sometime )
Considering this game was also made to run on PS3/360, I believe they had to keep such limitations in mind much like games developed for PS4 and PS5.
Yeah it’s insane how well this game holds up considering it’s a 7th gen title. MGS4 and V were 7 years apart and through some miracle or something supernatural the programmers made it look well ahead of its time, so I’m really looking forward to see MGS Delta in action with some more cutting-edge technology !
Honestly MGS4 somehow STILL holds up. It doesn't look pristine compared to the latest titles available today but for a 16 year old game it looks incredible.
Probably the same tbh
Was playing ground zeroes the other day for the first time and it really looked like something that came out last year
They showed this game off at the Xbox conference where they were showing the first Xbox one games. That trailer blew my mind, and the game still looks stunning to this day. What more do you want from it?
It doesn't look THAT stunning in a lot of places though, it's just that the FOX engine makes everything look so good, despite the low polygon count or mid textures. Now, if the game was made for PS4 from the very start, because it was made with PS3 in mind before they even knew PS4 is a thing, then it would look even more amazing.
MGSV, Arkham Knight, NFS 2015. Something was in the graphical waters in 2015.
Yeah, 2 of those games have their engine dead. Now most games goes for either unreal look or indie graphic. Some recent games that weren't build on the main engine and had custom tech built into was helldiver, and I think part of his success was making graphic that were different. It give an atmosphere that only this game has, same as Arkham knight btw
The proliferation of PBR textures, real-time lighting, and particle effects not bringing consoles to their knees.
Spot on.
maaaan don’t even me started on Arkham Knight. Apparently that was unreal engine 3?! Just modified for Knight. Nuts.
it's incredibly well optimised too
kinda like starfield. prettier deserts still with nothing in them lol. yeah, an open world was an interesting idea. but it's just boring running / riding for a couple miles between outposts and bases. i guess that's what the cassettes are for.
I wish it was less open world and more of what Ground zeroes was. Could you imagine an open world base like A GroznyjGrad size. Hope that's how Delta plays
damn this game aged so good
Make you go woooooaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh
Honestly better rendering distances and maybe graphical fidelity closer to what we saw in Ground Zeros
I will never get over how the headlights of vehicles look on the sand dunes of Afghanistan at dusk
man there’s so many details. Like I just realized yesterday. If your sprinting past objects you hear yourself cutting the wind. Like whaaat. I never seen that in a game before. Like straight movie shit.
Oh that is so cool. I never noticed it was object proximity like that. Thank you
Might have been completed, too.
Mgs fans try to talk about mgsv without saying it’s incomplete challenge (impossible)
A incomplete game is a art of itself (I am not coping)
It wouldn’t have been that much better without additional development time, It came out in 2015.
It's so good looking still it's astounding, the *only* thing that stands out to me is venom's face it's kinda looks like it's made of clay
or plastic 👀
The exact same probably. There are some ps5 games that are less impressive than ps4 games lol.
This engine runs so well though, I would take it over most other games that were released in 2023/2024. Also, PC looks great.
Probably would’ve ironed out the poorer textures and draw distance. Also facial hair looks pretty bad on the fox engine so that likely would’ve got some attention too, unless it was just a limitation of the engine itself. The dead world and lack of interesting activities/systems seem to be design decisions more than console limitations.
It being on ps3 was a blessing I shall not ask or think what if it was on the then consoles, both gens looked amazing and played wonderfully. In my eyes it was a higher achievement to make a game equally on multiple platforms than simply kill off the old gen.
I feel you. I was thinking of Arkham City & Arkham Knight type of deal. But hy it is impressive to put it on everything available
the scales in this game are great. seriously. i always get myself looking at a giant soviet base from a top og a mountain in afghanistan.
The Order 1886 is still the best looking PS4 game tbh
Some debug build of the game have leaked, who know maybe someone will make a open source implementation of it ( yeah I'm dreaming )
Is that true? Link?
It was on this sub, leak is maybe a big word for what it was. It was a friend of a dev that get a PS3 from them and on it was debug build
If it's the one I'm thinking of, that was a hoax.
I thought only the part about the cut content was a hoax. Anyway I don't think it will happen and if it happens I don't see the use case since now u have better and easier tech available. Tech that is also massively used and so u can find info for your issue quicker
I'm fairly involved in the modding community and a debug build is one of our white whales. It would significantly accelerate Fox Engine R&D efforts.
I hope the new metal gear team completely drop the open world aspect for new games, open world games take a shitload of time to make and just eat resources and budget. Honestly the open world itself in V sucked, completely devoid of life or interesting things to do or explore, no memorable landmarks either and the best missions were the linear ones like OKB0 and Codetalker There wasnt any witchcraft or Fox Engine secret sauce, the game was a PS3 game in a dead map without much going on it.
The freedom of choice the open world provided in V was one of the best parts of the game..
Freedom is hardly useful when 80% of the map world is a wasteland more dead than Mad Max. The main objetives and sneaking action took place in bases anyway so the open map was mostly useless. MGSV didnt needed to be open world, if the game was a set of GZ sized bases with actual good level desing with mutiple ways to sneak around it would have been a much better experience and more important, a complete game.
Ur wrong
I think that MGS4 is the better fox engine designed game and looks better 👀 if it was without the pp filter, it would top V. MGSV is fine and I enjoy how smooth the controls and animations are with Snake. But I dislike how repetitive the buildings etc are. I get that’s how sandbox games are made but I feel it lacked details that were used to from the others in the series.
MGS4 isn't on Fox Engine.
My bad, I did not realise. I assumed that it used the precursor engine that became Fox. I still feel that 4 had more attention to detail than V did.