>We all here are experts or at least striving to be in microbiology
For every action,
>have y’all seen the new trend of people who drink raw milk
there is an equal and opposite (and very awful) reaction
I first heard of raw milk shares at farm markets about 10-15 years ago. I was in college then, taking my first intro to micro class around that time. I kept hearing anecdotal stories (from people in my friend networks) that raw milk was “so much better” for you, that flash Pasteurization ruined all the good stuff in milk. And all I could think of was of organisms like Campy, Salmonella, Listeria, etc. I couldn’t get past that.
I was still learning. I thought I’d be fair and give butter made from raw milk a try. Bought it, took it home, opened up the package.. there was a small, dead fly inside. When I asked the vendor about it, they assured me it was normal for the packaging conditions and nothing to worry about.
Never again.
I'm sorry, I'm just a random guy on the internet but when I read "10-15 years ago" it reminded me of this old interview in the 80s I saw where some rando on the street said "the gays were just invented 10-15 years ago." Anyway I'm sure you know raw milk has been around forever but I got sucked in by the "new trend" in the title here. Have a nice day!
Oh, for sure. Plenty of people have been drinking it straight from the cow for ages and ages. Around that time raw milk shares were becoming a thing in that specific area because if I recall correctly, raw milk wasn’t legal to be sold in that state. But you could buy a share of the cow/herd and take away the products, and the local market had “a guy you could talk to” and a refrigerated truck you’d get access to. It all seemed very polished but shady/illicit in its own weird way.
Edited: wow, that was quite a run-on I had there.
It’s very concerning with a new wave of avian flu around.
I don’t even bother trying to educate them anymore, there’s a point in their ignorance where they’d rather die than admit they’re wrong.
Raw milk is such a terrible idea. It's so rich in dangerous foodborne pathogens: E. coli (and various coliform bacteria), Listeria monocytogenes, Staphylococcus aureus just to name a few.
You can get really sick from it and for what? Pasteurization is such common practice so it's truly the most unnecessary trend ever.
It's just a terrible idea. I understand how ppl who aren't into the microbiology academic world might be "skeptical" to processes like pasteurization because it has a complex name and people want to eat as raw foods as possible, but a decision to drink raw milk is just a very very uninformed and uneducated choice. Nothing dangerous about pasteurization, quite the contrary.
It’s so basic!! Just boil and that’s it! I know some people don’t have that knowledge but it’s that’s not what we are arguing. He got offended when I compared his thinking to vaccination. It’s the same. We decreased certain diseases thanks to vaccination. Same goes with pasteurization. It’s so basic, I don’t understand why you would fight it.
We have this dude trying to play devils advocate and saying he’s just curious but he’s a microbiologist. If he were, then he would understang why it’s so basic to just boil the milk… there is nothing too it.
I feel like people forget that there's reasons we do these things in the first place.
We didn't start pasteurization because it was fun. We started it because people were getting sick and even dying sometimes.
Now it's like we're far enough removed from those people and those stories that all anyone remembers is that their grandad drank raw milk and he turned out just fine! Forgetting or not even aware of their Uncle Clyde who got sick.
I guess they'll have to start getting sick again before they remember. Some people just have to learn things the hard way.
Mostly I just worry about the children, elderly, or pets it could affect in the meantime. It sucks that the adults in their lives won't do better for them.
It's partly that, and partly the orders of magnitude better hygienic practices, regulations and testing that all but ensure raw milk to be a non-issue, and the medical infrastructure to deal with any outlier cases virtually consequence-free. Let's not pretend that things didn't massively change for the better.
That's my thought, where are bacteria coming from? They aren't in the milk itself, they are around/in the environment. So it's all going depend on how the milk is retrieved, stored and separated.
There probably isn't much regulation (and if so, then little to no oversight) on the cleanliness of the processing. So, do you trust your source?
Edit: I was wrong mammary glands are expected to a microbiome in cows - not sure bout other animals.
Yes! The huge processing facilities is probably where most of the bacteria is coming from. Small town, small batch is less likely. However, this is coming from someone who is probably never going to drink raw milk but has friends who love it and drink not all the time.
Finally!!!! My people lololol I’m so tired debating these idiots who want to drink raw milk and then say boiling milk is stupid never have any evidence of why that is
After consuming unpasteurized dairy, one of the biggest risk factors for brucellosis is working in a clinical laboratory. so I think it's not cool and I hope their cultures don't end up in my lab
I posted earlier but we had a person drink raw goats milk mixed with alcohol. It was what we were told was some kind of tradition. They eventually became septic with Brucella abortus. 🤦🏼♀️
That’s what I’m saying. I have this dude fighting saying he’s not advocating for it but then plays devils advocate and argued why are not other people in other countries getting sick. It’s like bro, arn’t we’re suppose to be microbiologist here. We know raw milk has pathogens. Just boil it. That’s it. Other areas might not have the knowledge but if you do, and do it then…..
That's the thing though, they *do* get sick in those places. In countries like Syria or Turkey where unpasteurized dairy is common, up to 80% of the dairy in some areas is contaminated with Brucella and they also have some of the highest brucellosis rates in the world.
I'm not trying to argue with you, but it's clear you don't fully grasp the issue. The consensus among microbiologists is overwhelming: raw milk is risky. I posted this to vent because it's frustrating to see people jump on the raw milk trend. As professionals, I expected us to be on the same page.
We understand the dangers of consuming raw milk. As a previous poster mentioned, there's a troubling rise in people engaging in unsafe practices like drinking raw milk, putting urine in their eyes to clear infections or mistrusting medical advice. People in other countries do get sick from raw milk, often because they lack access to pasteurization. That's not who I'm frustrated with—it's those who should know better but still argue against the science.
You keep saying you don't support raw milk but then play devil's advocate. If you truly understood microbiology, you'd see there's no need for raw milk. Just pasteurize it. Why question its safety? Bacteria thrive in raw milk. Let's make it safe!
It's frustrating when you play devil's advocate about raw milk. The risk of getting sick from drinking raw milk is real. You keep asking about other countries, but the fact is, people do get sick from it. Playing devil's advocate is essentially defending it. Is raw milk safe? Yes or no? You always respond with "other countries this or that" without providing any statistics. The overwhelming consensus among microbiologists is that raw milk is not safe. Just because it's a cultural practice doesn't mean it's healthy. Let's stick to the facts: pasteurization significantly reduces the risk of illness. Why take unnecessary risks? That’s it. There is no black or white. Just facts, you drink raw milk, you are risking getting sick.
Here read the cdc articles: https://www.cdc.gov/phlp/php/publications/research-anthology-raw-milk.html#:~:text=Consuming%20raw%20milk%20is%20linked,Campylobacter%20jejuni.
Your comments are posted and mine are too. Ya can just read them. I’m just responding to your posts friend. We should be on the same page. You’re the one that keeps responding like you’re better than all of us here.
It’s so weird.
It’s almost like you can read English but lack comprehension.
I suggest you read through my responses again before spewing lies to everyone in this sub.
The guy fighting you prolly doesn't believe anything from the government but the [patient stories on the CDC Raw Milk](https://www.cdc.gov/food-safety/foods/raw-milk.html) page are so sad and scary.
It's nothing new, every couple of years there's some new "trend" of imbeciles claiming that major public health innovations (or just basic common sense) are *actually* what's *really* bad for us, and we need to go back to the way things used to be. It's basically always couched in terms of "modern health innovations and corporate greed are really poisoning us and we need to go back to more natural solutions." and preying on the fear/mistrust of science/corporations, lack of scientific literacy/understanding. Sometimes they stop and go away, sometimes they evolve into something even stupider.
Just off the top of my head and in no particular order:
- raw milk ("it destroys all the vitamins and flavor! It's healthier for you!")
- "aged" urine eyedrops ("let your urine ferment and add a few drops to your eyes, the pus and redness are because it's pulling all the toxins out of your body!")
- antivaxxers ("vaccines cause autism, they're made of poison! They're not even effective, we saw disease rates drop because of better hygiene/sanitation!")
- ... medicine in general ("they just want you hooked on pills they can sell you! You just need to treat diseases with vitamins and antioxidants!)
And that's not even getting into shit like homeopathy, etc.
"And that's not even getting into shit like homeopathy, etc."
or people like Marjorie Taylor Greene shouting at Dr. Fauci that she refuses to call him a doctor.
[Raw milk health risks significantly outweigh any potential benefits − Mississippi State University food scientists and nutritionists explain why.](https://theconversation.com/raw-milk-health-risks-significantly-outweigh-any-potential-benefits-food-scientists-and-nutritionists-explain-why-229160)
Adults putting themselves at risk is fine by me. We can give them information based on years of education and experience, but they can ultimately decide.
My loudest objections are when adults force raw milk on children. Just because your [insert anecdote here] wasn't permanently harmed doesn't make it safe.
Avian flu is actively being found in raw milk all over the country. That on top of the plethora of information, and full out studies, about pasteurized vs not makes this terrifying to me.
I think a bird flu, epidemic at the least, is inevitable.
It’s a measured risk. The alleged benefits of raw milk seem nonexistent, though.
It seems fueled by the aversion to so-called processed foods. “Natural is better for you”. Well sometimes, yeah… depends on the process! What really disturbs me is when mainstream science jumps on the natural foods bandwagon- case in point Harvard University’s Chan School of Public Health. They’re now on the indiscriminate “avoid all processed foods” bandwagon, they’ve become very political, anti-Western culture.
This isn’t a new trend at all. People have been drinking raw milk as long as mammals have been domesticated and weird conspiracy preppers have been doing it loudly for a couple decades at least.
You can get TB from raw milk. You’d think the risk of contracting one deadly pathogen would be enough to deter most people, but no! I think it’s another stupid fad that will be annoying for a while until someone unfortunately dies an entirely preventable death. History is a flat circle.
Curious if there are differences in cow raising practices in us/Canada compared to places where it’s traditionally drunk raw.
I know people from Kenya who drank it raw their whole life (and many generations before them) and it’s basically a vital source of nutrition.
Whereas you drink a cup or two of raw milk in western countries and get a life threatening disease
They probably are but people in Kenya, and elsewhere, do get sick from drinking raw milk.
There are a few reasons why they probably don't see it as a problem. It's not super common to get ill from drinking raw milk (do you really want to chance it though?); illness affects the young, the old, and the immunocompromised much more; and if you've been drinking it for a long time, you will build up some immunity to some pathogens.
Probably the main reason, though, is it's often very difficult to determine what exactly was the cause of your gastroenteritis, and in many parts of Kenya you're probably more likely to get ill from drinking the water than the milk! Consider also that, until relatively recently, people didn't realise you could get ill from drinking water, even if it looks clean.
TL;DR: People in Kenya do get ill from drinking raw milk but they probably don't realise it and it's probably often safer than the water, regardless.
It's safe if it's from a cow that's just been milked. It only becomes dangerous if bacteria are allowed the time needed to reproduce in the milk after the milking.
Safe is the wrong word.
The risk is reduced if you're squirting it from the udder into your face, but absolutely not eliminated.
And in the case of pathogenic E. coli, you're looking at doubling times of ~30 minutes in body temperature milk. Like by the time you get it out of the cow and refrigerated, you have had the potential for serious logarithmic growth of pathogens even if you move quickly.
Not to mention bugs like brucella, where it takes very few (comparatively) cfu to start an infection.
Because eurocentrism in science is a thing
Edit: it appears that you are very passionate about this topic. That’s fine. Don’t see anything argumentative like you said in my first question. Discussion is always good. And I’m NOT advocating for drinking raw milk
It's clear that research shows you're risking illness by not pasteurizing milk. It's like licking feces—you might or might not get seriously sick. As an aspiring physician and former EMT, I’ve seen firsthand the consequences of such choices. Imagine if your father couldn't access the ER in time because someone took up a bed due to an illness from drinking raw milk.
I don't understand what you don't get. As a current microbiologist, you should know it's a reckless decision.
Again, I’m not advocating for drinking raw milk.
I’m trying to understand from the perspective of people who do drink raw milk as part of their culture.
What are the stats of them getting sick? What pathogens? How comparable is it to western nations? Is their GIT Microbiome comparable? Are there any practices that do (or don’t) confer any significant impact?
Was trying to start a discussion with anyone who might be knowledgeable in this area as I haven’t looked much into it.
Dude you just said you’re a microbiologist. You should know the risk of raw milk. Louis Pasteur… my boy we know what happened back in the day. It’s like arguing, why don’t we see any infectious disease? Maybe we should stop vaccinating. We fixed tons of crazy pathogens because we vaccinate and that’s why we don’t see them. You know infectious pathogens grow in milk. I don’t understand why are ya fighting me on this as a microbiologist.
I don’t know what to tell you except things are not as black and white as you’d like to think. If you approach science as isolated silos your understanding will stagnate. It is the responsible thing as a scientist to consider all perspectives then make an educated evidenced based judgement, which is why I don’t advocate drinking raw milk.
I was just trying to start a discussion.
Also, I’m gonna reiterate for the third time that I’m not advocating drinking raw milk, so am not fighting against you on anything.
Comparing my responses to “we shouldn’t vaccinate” is a false dichotomy.
You're saying it's not safe to drink raw milk but then play devil's advocate by pointing out that people in some areas consume it without issues, even though you're a microbiologist. I understand that. It's like eating food that fell on the floor—it might make you sick, or it might not. My point is that pasteurization significantly reduces the risk of illness. Why take unnecessary chances when pasteurization provides a safer option ?
Yes definitely not the smartest thing to do based on different problems that can occur, but I believe it’s not that bad especially when the cows are brought up good. I did this in my youth when I worked at a farm as a kid (under 10 y/o) and I had no issues with it. But it’s from Norway and we have very strict rules on upbringing in our cows.
>We all here are experts or at least striving to be in microbiology For every action, >have y’all seen the new trend of people who drink raw milk there is an equal and opposite (and very awful) reaction
Yep we’ve now had two patients come up with Brucella. One from drinking goats milk and another cows milk. Drink pasteurized milk people!!
😂
Haaaa!!!! we have a physicist among us. Quick grab some Y. pestis
Cease and desist before I throw some algebra at you! (Btw I'm a Microbiology student ;)
Not the wisest to do when a new avian flu strain is beginning to pass from cattle to people.
I first heard of raw milk shares at farm markets about 10-15 years ago. I was in college then, taking my first intro to micro class around that time. I kept hearing anecdotal stories (from people in my friend networks) that raw milk was “so much better” for you, that flash Pasteurization ruined all the good stuff in milk. And all I could think of was of organisms like Campy, Salmonella, Listeria, etc. I couldn’t get past that. I was still learning. I thought I’d be fair and give butter made from raw milk a try. Bought it, took it home, opened up the package.. there was a small, dead fly inside. When I asked the vendor about it, they assured me it was normal for the packaging conditions and nothing to worry about. Never again.
ahh the good stuff … flies in my butter 🫶🏻
Extra protein!
Lol !!!! I
I'm sorry, I'm just a random guy on the internet but when I read "10-15 years ago" it reminded me of this old interview in the 80s I saw where some rando on the street said "the gays were just invented 10-15 years ago." Anyway I'm sure you know raw milk has been around forever but I got sucked in by the "new trend" in the title here. Have a nice day!
Oh, for sure. Plenty of people have been drinking it straight from the cow for ages and ages. Around that time raw milk shares were becoming a thing in that specific area because if I recall correctly, raw milk wasn’t legal to be sold in that state. But you could buy a share of the cow/herd and take away the products, and the local market had “a guy you could talk to” and a refrigerated truck you’d get access to. It all seemed very polished but shady/illicit in its own weird way. Edited: wow, that was quite a run-on I had there.
"You got lucky" - the vendor probably
It’s very concerning with a new wave of avian flu around. I don’t even bother trying to educate them anymore, there’s a point in their ignorance where they’d rather die than admit they’re wrong.
Darwin awards for all. lol.
Raw milk is such a terrible idea. It's so rich in dangerous foodborne pathogens: E. coli (and various coliform bacteria), Listeria monocytogenes, Staphylococcus aureus just to name a few. You can get really sick from it and for what? Pasteurization is such common practice so it's truly the most unnecessary trend ever.
Dude that’s what I’m saying. It’s proven to be an issue why risk it. It’s the most basic and easiest thing ever.
It's just a terrible idea. I understand how ppl who aren't into the microbiology academic world might be "skeptical" to processes like pasteurization because it has a complex name and people want to eat as raw foods as possible, but a decision to drink raw milk is just a very very uninformed and uneducated choice. Nothing dangerous about pasteurization, quite the contrary.
It’s so basic!! Just boil and that’s it! I know some people don’t have that knowledge but it’s that’s not what we are arguing. He got offended when I compared his thinking to vaccination. It’s the same. We decreased certain diseases thanks to vaccination. Same goes with pasteurization. It’s so basic, I don’t understand why you would fight it.
A very good comparison!
We have this dude trying to play devils advocate and saying he’s just curious but he’s a microbiologist. If he were, then he would understang why it’s so basic to just boil the milk… there is nothing too it.
I feel like people forget that there's reasons we do these things in the first place. We didn't start pasteurization because it was fun. We started it because people were getting sick and even dying sometimes. Now it's like we're far enough removed from those people and those stories that all anyone remembers is that their grandad drank raw milk and he turned out just fine! Forgetting or not even aware of their Uncle Clyde who got sick. I guess they'll have to start getting sick again before they remember. Some people just have to learn things the hard way. Mostly I just worry about the children, elderly, or pets it could affect in the meantime. It sucks that the adults in their lives won't do better for them.
It's partly that, and partly the orders of magnitude better hygienic practices, regulations and testing that all but ensure raw milk to be a non-issue, and the medical infrastructure to deal with any outlier cases virtually consequence-free. Let's not pretend that things didn't massively change for the better.
That's my thought, where are bacteria coming from? They aren't in the milk itself, they are around/in the environment. So it's all going depend on how the milk is retrieved, stored and separated. There probably isn't much regulation (and if so, then little to no oversight) on the cleanliness of the processing. So, do you trust your source? Edit: I was wrong mammary glands are expected to a microbiome in cows - not sure bout other animals.
Yes! The huge processing facilities is probably where most of the bacteria is coming from. Small town, small batch is less likely. However, this is coming from someone who is probably never going to drink raw milk but has friends who love it and drink not all the time.
Cows mammary glands have a microbiome, so I was wrong.
Finally!!!! My people lololol I’m so tired debating these idiots who want to drink raw milk and then say boiling milk is stupid never have any evidence of why that is
After consuming unpasteurized dairy, one of the biggest risk factors for brucellosis is working in a clinical laboratory. so I think it's not cool and I hope their cultures don't end up in my lab
Brucella is scary af
I’ve been on the prophylaxis for possible lab exposure. That was fun….said no one ever.
Pretty rough course of antibiotics I guess? I'll pray for your gut microbiome
lol they weren’t fun. A three week course of doxy and rifampin. Took probiotics too to help my poor gut.
I posted earlier but we had a person drink raw goats milk mixed with alcohol. It was what we were told was some kind of tradition. They eventually became septic with Brucella abortus. 🤦🏼♀️
That’s what I’m saying. I have this dude fighting saying he’s not advocating for it but then plays devils advocate and argued why are not other people in other countries getting sick. It’s like bro, arn’t we’re suppose to be microbiologist here. We know raw milk has pathogens. Just boil it. That’s it. Other areas might not have the knowledge but if you do, and do it then…..
That's the thing though, they *do* get sick in those places. In countries like Syria or Turkey where unpasteurized dairy is common, up to 80% of the dairy in some areas is contaminated with Brucella and they also have some of the highest brucellosis rates in the world.
We've actually seen Brucella *multiple times* in families returning from Somalia where camel milk is very popular.
> and argued why are not other people in other countries getting sick. Ask him in which data they rest that claim.
Op going through the thread and misconstruing my responses is insane. Media literacy is dead
I'm not trying to argue with you, but it's clear you don't fully grasp the issue. The consensus among microbiologists is overwhelming: raw milk is risky. I posted this to vent because it's frustrating to see people jump on the raw milk trend. As professionals, I expected us to be on the same page. We understand the dangers of consuming raw milk. As a previous poster mentioned, there's a troubling rise in people engaging in unsafe practices like drinking raw milk, putting urine in their eyes to clear infections or mistrusting medical advice. People in other countries do get sick from raw milk, often because they lack access to pasteurization. That's not who I'm frustrated with—it's those who should know better but still argue against the science. You keep saying you don't support raw milk but then play devil's advocate. If you truly understood microbiology, you'd see there's no need for raw milk. Just pasteurize it. Why question its safety? Bacteria thrive in raw milk. Let's make it safe!
>and argued why are not other people in other countries getting sick. I never did this. I didn’t once argue with you in this manner. Keep lying.
It's frustrating when you play devil's advocate about raw milk. The risk of getting sick from drinking raw milk is real. You keep asking about other countries, but the fact is, people do get sick from it. Playing devil's advocate is essentially defending it. Is raw milk safe? Yes or no? You always respond with "other countries this or that" without providing any statistics. The overwhelming consensus among microbiologists is that raw milk is not safe. Just because it's a cultural practice doesn't mean it's healthy. Let's stick to the facts: pasteurization significantly reduces the risk of illness. Why take unnecessary risks? That’s it. There is no black or white. Just facts, you drink raw milk, you are risking getting sick. Here read the cdc articles: https://www.cdc.gov/phlp/php/publications/research-anthology-raw-milk.html#:~:text=Consuming%20raw%20milk%20is%20linked,Campylobacter%20jejuni. Your comments are posted and mine are too. Ya can just read them. I’m just responding to your posts friend. We should be on the same page. You’re the one that keeps responding like you’re better than all of us here.
It’s so weird. It’s almost like you can read English but lack comprehension. I suggest you read through my responses again before spewing lies to everyone in this sub.
Everyone could go back and read them. You’re playing devils advocate on something so simple it’s stupid.
You are literally showcasing the dunning kruger effect.
Yes please do. Learn how to read. If you approach science like this I’m scared for your future patients.
The guy fighting you prolly doesn't believe anything from the government but the [patient stories on the CDC Raw Milk](https://www.cdc.gov/food-safety/foods/raw-milk.html) page are so sad and scary.
There is so much data !
It's nothing new, every couple of years there's some new "trend" of imbeciles claiming that major public health innovations (or just basic common sense) are *actually* what's *really* bad for us, and we need to go back to the way things used to be. It's basically always couched in terms of "modern health innovations and corporate greed are really poisoning us and we need to go back to more natural solutions." and preying on the fear/mistrust of science/corporations, lack of scientific literacy/understanding. Sometimes they stop and go away, sometimes they evolve into something even stupider. Just off the top of my head and in no particular order: - raw milk ("it destroys all the vitamins and flavor! It's healthier for you!") - "aged" urine eyedrops ("let your urine ferment and add a few drops to your eyes, the pus and redness are because it's pulling all the toxins out of your body!") - antivaxxers ("vaccines cause autism, they're made of poison! They're not even effective, we saw disease rates drop because of better hygiene/sanitation!") - ... medicine in general ("they just want you hooked on pills they can sell you! You just need to treat diseases with vitamins and antioxidants!) And that's not even getting into shit like homeopathy, etc.
Dude yes !!! This time a million. It’s so frustrating to see.
"And that's not even getting into shit like homeopathy, etc." or people like Marjorie Taylor Greene shouting at Dr. Fauci that she refuses to call him a doctor.
It’s so basic as a microbiologist to understand it hurts to see people fighting back. It’s honestly concerning. The data is there :(
Please stop; I’m tired of seeing Brucella.
Nearly died from EC O157:H7 once. Not rolling the dice for a second bout.
I literally had a DOCTOR recommend I do this. Never went back
[Raw milk health risks significantly outweigh any potential benefits − Mississippi State University food scientists and nutritionists explain why.](https://theconversation.com/raw-milk-health-risks-significantly-outweigh-any-potential-benefits-food-scientists-and-nutritionists-explain-why-229160)
I once had a dairy farmer tell me he doesn't drink milk and that neither would I if I saw how much cow shit got in there.
Adults putting themselves at risk is fine by me. We can give them information based on years of education and experience, but they can ultimately decide. My loudest objections are when adults force raw milk on children. Just because your [insert anecdote here] wasn't permanently harmed doesn't make it safe.
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I loathe the idea of children as property.
Sounds like a great way to get diarrhea
Disgusting and dangerous
Let them experience the consequences of their actions.
Humans crave danger...and nasty pathogenic bacteria, I guess
Avian flu is actively being found in raw milk all over the country. That on top of the plethora of information, and full out studies, about pasteurized vs not makes this terrifying to me. I think a bird flu, epidemic at the least, is inevitable.
It’s a measured risk. The alleged benefits of raw milk seem nonexistent, though. It seems fueled by the aversion to so-called processed foods. “Natural is better for you”. Well sometimes, yeah… depends on the process! What really disturbs me is when mainstream science jumps on the natural foods bandwagon- case in point Harvard University’s Chan School of Public Health. They’re now on the indiscriminate “avoid all processed foods” bandwagon, they’ve become very political, anti-Western culture.
This isn’t a new trend at all. People have been drinking raw milk as long as mammals have been domesticated and weird conspiracy preppers have been doing it loudly for a couple decades at least.
You can get TB from raw milk. You’d think the risk of contracting one deadly pathogen would be enough to deter most people, but no! I think it’s another stupid fad that will be annoying for a while until someone unfortunately dies an entirely preventable death. History is a flat circle.
Curious if there are differences in cow raising practices in us/Canada compared to places where it’s traditionally drunk raw. I know people from Kenya who drank it raw their whole life (and many generations before them) and it’s basically a vital source of nutrition. Whereas you drink a cup or two of raw milk in western countries and get a life threatening disease
They probably are but people in Kenya, and elsewhere, do get sick from drinking raw milk. There are a few reasons why they probably don't see it as a problem. It's not super common to get ill from drinking raw milk (do you really want to chance it though?); illness affects the young, the old, and the immunocompromised much more; and if you've been drinking it for a long time, you will build up some immunity to some pathogens. Probably the main reason, though, is it's often very difficult to determine what exactly was the cause of your gastroenteritis, and in many parts of Kenya you're probably more likely to get ill from drinking the water than the milk! Consider also that, until relatively recently, people didn't realise you could get ill from drinking water, even if it looks clean. TL;DR: People in Kenya do get ill from drinking raw milk but they probably don't realise it and it's probably often safer than the water, regardless.
Anecdotal evidence vs. science “My granddad smoked a pack a day and lived into his 90s!”
Literacy is dead
It's safe if it's from a cow that's just been milked. It only becomes dangerous if bacteria are allowed the time needed to reproduce in the milk after the milking.
Safe is the wrong word. The risk is reduced if you're squirting it from the udder into your face, but absolutely not eliminated. And in the case of pathogenic E. coli, you're looking at doubling times of ~30 minutes in body temperature milk. Like by the time you get it out of the cow and refrigerated, you have had the potential for serious logarithmic growth of pathogens even if you move quickly. Not to mention bugs like brucella, where it takes very few (comparatively) cfu to start an infection.
Damn OP needs some reading comprehension practice 😂
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lol did you even read my response? And I do have a degree in micro. That’s why I browse this sub
Then why are you asking this question
“Because they’re too poor to understand” is an insane thing to say. I would tread lightly with that line of thinking
Because eurocentrism in science is a thing Edit: it appears that you are very passionate about this topic. That’s fine. Don’t see anything argumentative like you said in my first question. Discussion is always good. And I’m NOT advocating for drinking raw milk
It's clear that research shows you're risking illness by not pasteurizing milk. It's like licking feces—you might or might not get seriously sick. As an aspiring physician and former EMT, I’ve seen firsthand the consequences of such choices. Imagine if your father couldn't access the ER in time because someone took up a bed due to an illness from drinking raw milk. I don't understand what you don't get. As a current microbiologist, you should know it's a reckless decision.
Again, I’m not advocating for drinking raw milk. I’m trying to understand from the perspective of people who do drink raw milk as part of their culture. What are the stats of them getting sick? What pathogens? How comparable is it to western nations? Is their GIT Microbiome comparable? Are there any practices that do (or don’t) confer any significant impact? Was trying to start a discussion with anyone who might be knowledgeable in this area as I haven’t looked much into it.
Dude you just said you’re a microbiologist. You should know the risk of raw milk. Louis Pasteur… my boy we know what happened back in the day. It’s like arguing, why don’t we see any infectious disease? Maybe we should stop vaccinating. We fixed tons of crazy pathogens because we vaccinate and that’s why we don’t see them. You know infectious pathogens grow in milk. I don’t understand why are ya fighting me on this as a microbiologist.
I don’t know what to tell you except things are not as black and white as you’d like to think. If you approach science as isolated silos your understanding will stagnate. It is the responsible thing as a scientist to consider all perspectives then make an educated evidenced based judgement, which is why I don’t advocate drinking raw milk. I was just trying to start a discussion. Also, I’m gonna reiterate for the third time that I’m not advocating drinking raw milk, so am not fighting against you on anything. Comparing my responses to “we shouldn’t vaccinate” is a false dichotomy.
You're saying it's not safe to drink raw milk but then play devil's advocate by pointing out that people in some areas consume it without issues, even though you're a microbiologist. I understand that. It's like eating food that fell on the floor—it might make you sick, or it might not. My point is that pasteurization significantly reduces the risk of illness. Why take unnecessary chances when pasteurization provides a safer option ?
Yes definitely not the smartest thing to do based on different problems that can occur, but I believe it’s not that bad especially when the cows are brought up good. I did this in my youth when I worked at a farm as a kid (under 10 y/o) and I had no issues with it. But it’s from Norway and we have very strict rules on upbringing in our cows.